It's an angel sent to hell and she thinks it's gonna be really bad but it's okay. There are some crazy psychopaths but she makes friends who seem to tolerate her. She tries to figure out ways to get back to heaven but is also torn because the demons and sinners who keep helping her are either doing it because they are starting to genuinely change or they think they can trick her into letting them go there instead.
>"This tart really thinks she can purify souwls?! If that wuh possible don't ya think we wudint be down heah in the furst plice?! Rodney... don't tell me you actually believe this codswallop..." >"I 'unno Del, I'm reely hopin I can sawt've move mah way up in the wuhld- aftehwuhld, 'm really hopin I's can see mum again some day and we can be a big happy family." >"Rodney! Don't tell me you're actually thinking of movin' into this 'otel?!" >(defiantly) "I already have! And if YOU don't want your own bruvva improving his sewf then YOU can just stay down heah wif all da sinnas!" >"Ya mean ya movin outta the old shack we done got when we first come heah? You really gonna do that to your flesh and blad? When poor owl mum died off she done told me to take care of ya, and you ain't exactly makin it easy on me, pallin' aroun with that radio demon anaw dat!" >"'e's noice!" >"The hell 'e is Rodney, 'e's only stickin' aroun to larf at ya! I seen his type plenty befaw!" >"Wot, people lawfin at ya?" >"Lawfin at YOU, Rodney! 'oo do you think's been keepin aw these bullies at bay ya whole aftalife?! It ain't been owah bloody lawd above outta his good koindness!" >"Aw geez del, I don't know what to say. If you really don't want to see mum again..." >"Now don't you go bringin ap mahm just when it's convenient awright?!"
It would just be gays and other minorities getting graphically tortured in a million ways. While the self insert character looks down from above smirking "told you so". We all know christgays get off to that thought.
Christcucks: "Don't do [obvious dumb shit] that has [obvious negative consequences]."
Degenerates: "Don't tell me what to do! I'm a special snowflake that is somehow exempt from the laws or the universe, physics, biology, and statistics, and I'm cool so I wont suffer the [obvious consequences]", (while sucking on a crack pipe).
Christcucks: "No seriously dude. I care about you, and I don't want you to frick up your life."
Degenerates: "Frick you! I do what I want." >SpongebobTwoWeeksLater.jpg
Degenratates: "I fricked up my life."
Christcucks: "Yeah no shit."
Degenerates: "You WANTED that to happen just so you could say 'I told you so', point and laugh, and get off on my misery!
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! I'm a victim!"
You don't even need God to exist to know where the problem is. There are just monkeys who pay attention to the good advice from all the monkeys who saw other monkeys frick up for thousands of generations and worked out some basic rules to live by, and n00b monkeys who don't think they have to listen because they're somehow experts at life. When they find out they're not, it's everyone else's fault for being right. They're the ones who are le bad.
>hey man stop being a nymphomaniac you'll get AIDS >"no frick you CHUD I do what I want"
*2 weeks later* >"wtf I have AIDS now I'm gonna die YOU wanted this." >No not really, I'm sorry your actions had consequences and that you didn't listen to me.
>he doubles down on it
Why do every christgay immediately end up aggressively dishonest at the slightest pressure?
I know what you think it means. It's word you think you can disingenuously use to avoid the truth when you hear it.
>Why do every christgay immediately end up aggressively dishonest at the slightest pressure?
thats stupid he should've just opened the door and said >dad that's not my flag yeah it looks the same but it ain't mine man it's a coincidence
absolutely stupid of him honestly didn't even change how his room looks for his shoots I bet
>hey man stop being a nymphomaniac you'll get AIDS >"no frick you CHUD I do what I want"
*2 weeks later* >"wtf I have AIDS now I'm gonna die YOU wanted this." >No not really, I'm sorry your actions had consequences and that you didn't listen to me.
thats stupid he should've just opened the door and said >dad that's not my flag yeah it looks the same but it ain't mine man it's a coincidence
absolutely stupid of him honestly didn't even change how his room looks for his shoots I bet
>Christcucks: shit they'd never say
Most of these people are satanists they genuinely take pleasure in the idea of people they hate burning in hell so realistically they'd gloat about how they're going to heaven, and the crack head is going to hell. Yeah degenerates are buttholes but so are most christian's. Heck same could be said of most religious people. Can't blame them though considering most religions tell their followers that they're special and everyone else is gay. Or at least thats how most people interpret their religions.
>projecting
Not how it works at all. >Justice must be tempered with compassion, but compassion must also be tempered with justice
Because if you don't do both, you're either being too much of a hardass or a total sucker.
Since degenerates want everything to go their way all the time, literally have their cake and eat it too, they selfishly act without self-restraint and then when they get the predictable consequences, (their 'just' desserts), they demand everyone show them only UNTEMPERED compassion, and call them an arsehole if they don't. They literally make their bullshit everyone else's problem, as usual.
Take some junkie begging on the street. If a total cure for drug addiction were invented tomorrow I'd be more happy about it than they would be. They'd be happy for themselves, but I'd be happy for literally everyone - including people who aren't junkies, because nobody would have to deal with the unnecessary costs of that bullshit anymore. Not the drug addicts themselves, nor the other people they directly hurt in the process, nor them externalising the costs of their dumb decisions more generally, (not just talking about monetary costs either).
I'd be happy to see people going back to a normal life, but I'd still have to wonder about this person's character/decision making process when it comes to them avoiding other dumb shit I can't fix. And it was never about me just personally thinking 'crack am bad', but just that prevention is better than non-existent cure. Just like I think smoking is moronic, but don't give two shits if you vape all the non-addictive fruit-flavoured crap you want. >If smoking cigarettes wasn't addictive, deleterious to the body, and so costly due to overtaxation, I'd be doing it myself because I think it looks kinda cool and kinda like the smell. If they make a cure for all that I'll start tomorrow. Maybe I'll start when I'm at death's door anyway, because what better time to start something that has long-term effects?
>other minorities getting graphically tortured in a million ways
Minorities are more likely the Christian than white people in America. The majority of Christians in the world are non-white.
in western countries christians are mostly white on average. you’re over estimating how many people identify as atheist. the vast majority of whites in america identity as protestant, almost 80%
Not quite that high, stats from 2014 had white protestants at 48%, white catholics at 19%, mormons at 2%, israelites at 3%, and white irreligious at 24%.
Granted, a lot but not all irrelegious Americans come from burnt out Protestants so you could say it's higher than 48% if you count those who identify culturally
it’s mostly atheists who want to import more shitskins too
Because atheism in the US is pure anti-puritanism/anti-radical reformation/anti-evangelicalism/whatever you want to call it. Mass-immigration is one of the ways they can ensure Puritan culture does not come back. The entire history of the US is just Puritans fighting their burnt out children while dragging in other cultures to get an advantage
4 months ago
Anonymous
(another anon)
You're not entirely wrong. "I believe in something I guess but this version of Christianity I don't want" can be called "atheist", kinda.
I've been reading a book about Flannery O'Conner and the South, and it has really convinced me (as of two chapters in), is that a lot of people are effectively atheist, but social norms mean that, "yes we go to church because we are good people, but because we are good people we don't care about the church" paradox a lot of Americans (and specifically Southern's) experience.
https://i.imgur.com/NsHCYax.jpg
How would you make a Hazbin/Helluva show for Christians?
Also what even is it? Like isn't it relationship drama with "the most horrible people turned good" disguised as something else?
The only way I can see it is if something during/right after the civil war as poor white Christian families trying to grapple with the fact that they supported so cruel a system under the guise of hierarchical compassion/protection, while now interacting with poor black families. Like it would have the theological crap slinging a plenty but the general "everyone cusses and talks about sex" would be pretty lost on something that would probably be a slow burn. But because we are talking about America, and redemption in the worst of places, that could be a symbolic parallel without explicitly stating "this is symbolic of people trying to redeem themselves from hell they created."
What country are you referring to here? You consider the USA peaceful? Even there you can see people getting shot en masse in the religious south and not so much in the secular north
Oh yeah like Detroit and Chicago is the South. There is obviously problems, but acting like you can just boil down the entire state a region by comparing physical violence, doesn't equal the social capital a region has. Though honestly the entire United States is getting homogenized to where most people are so isolated and work oriented the compassion we should have between each other just isn't there anymore. 9/11 did jack all for unity, and any other "horrible tragedy" that comes out of the woodwork. It a much deeper stain than "wow people really like to shoot guns."
>imagine being such a cuck homosexual who needs someone to tell you what you can and can't say you get down on your knees and literally suck janny wiener, man this place has gone to shit
But anon, Hazbin already IS for Christian audiences. Sure, there are some weird protestant sects that make "christian" "television". But I mean these weird, disgusting freaks also circumcise their children like muslims, so why should it be a surprise they also have a fricked up version of halal?
Heaven would be le good, actually.
... and there would be no plot, one side would be filled with child rapists and mass murderers and the other one wouldn't, it'd be as white and black as it could get.
I mean yes it's fedora atheists that point out the shrimp thing, but they are just as correct about that as incels calling out particular kinds of woman. The truth does not care if it comes out of a cringelord.
No, the bible has been analyzed and interpreted in millions of different ways for centuries. Some homosexual redditor whose only knowledge about the bible comes from shit r/atheism memes does not know the "truth".
Listen gay, if you ask the average Christian what the Q source is they will think it was "a Trump thing or something, right?". Real world religion is mob rule, like it or not, and the mob doesn't even read the primary source to a significant extent. >has been analyzed and interpreted in millions of different ways for centuries
Yes and all of it is factually irrelevant to a troll taking a single line from the bible and quoting it. The quote is correct, which is not the same as "in good faith", or "given in context", but because of the point above it is honestly hilarious you think clergy fanon has any relevance to anybody. Religious internet debate is the battlefield of 20 somethings.
4 months ago
Anonymous
>muh trump
What are you even trying to say? Cool word salad.
Seems like you only pay heed to the parts of the bible that are convenient for yourself.
Nope, interpreting and ignoring are two very different things.
4 months ago
Anonymous
>Cool word salad.
ESL. Let's try again.
1) knowing even basic shit about the Bible is already too much for normalgays (example: Q source)
2) Leviticus 11:9-12 is written in the bible. That is truth, simple as.
4 months ago
Anonymous
It is extremely childish to think civilization has been built on a literal interpretation of the bible. Maybe not as childish as thinking calling someone bilingual is some sort of insult, though.
4 months ago
Anonymous
>It is extremely childish to think civilization has been built on a literal interpretation of the bible.
I don't think that. One of the most important figures of modern philosophy essentially turned christian values into a rationalist moral system. The man was named Immanuel Kant.
What I DO think is that the vast majority of Christians are not capable of interpreting the bible on a higher level, because (again) they barely know what is in the book. >calling someone bilingual is some sort of insult, though.
of course the ESL does not understand the connotation of the term and gets hung up on the denotation. Next you'll accuse me of using "big words".
4 months ago
Anonymous
>Immanuel Kant
Who?
>the vast majority of Christians are not capable of interpreting the bible on a higher level
I feel like this "higher level" you're talking about speaks volumes about your true intentions when it comes to interpreting the bible, anon.
>of course the ESL does not understand the connotation of the term
The connotation that my english grammar isn't the best because I juggle 2 languages on my day to day life? You really owned me there.
4 months ago
Anonymous
>because I juggle 2 languages on my day to day life?
struggling with English as a second language is a sign of subpar education. Not knowing who one of the most important figures of the Enlightenment was (high school level education) is another such sign. >I feel like this "higher level" you're talking about
let me spell it out for the intellectually challenged. I am saying that the average person lacks a great deal of required reading to have so much as a chance of interpreting "the bible". Which, by the way, is not the same as having read a KJB once. (Please don't ask what the KJB is, you've disqualfied yourself enough from discourse already)
4 months ago
Anonymous
>Nope, interpreting and ignoring are two very different things.
There isn't a single christgay out there who doesn't "interpret" the bible according to their own biases and prejudices.
How do I know this? Because you can't exist in modern society and also follow the Bible. An actual christian would not browse this website to begin with. You're all a bunch of larpers sporting an aggressive and unwarranted superiority complex.
4 months ago
guy
You're making up your own rules to try to encourage Christians not to participate in society. We have things like priests, theologians, cardinals for what you pretend to do.
4 months ago
Anonymous
god knows about your proclivities guy and you're going to burn in hell for them
4 months ago
Anonymous
Who hurt you? You sound extremely aggresive for no real reason.
The bible is an extremely cryptic book written centuries ago! the ancestors of my ancestors we're as christian as I am, so why wouldn't I put my interpretation of it to a higher value than yours when you're clearly just trying to discredit it?
4 months ago
Anonymous
I consider viking religion as part of my ancestry and I find great value in those texts. However I don't get a lot larping morons insisting Thor is throwing ligtning bolts around in the sky while trying to shove antiquated and arbitrary morals down my throat.
My relationship with the Bible wouldn't be as sour if weren't for its schizophrenic and overbearing fanbase. I'd love to appreciate it as an historical record and culturally significant text but it's difficult when I'm told on the daily I ought to be stoned or whatever over arbitrary nonsense.
Ultimately religion wouldn't exist at all if adherents weren't useful idiots for whatever political agenda.
4 months ago
Anonymous
The "Viking religion" is only responsable for plundering the civilization Christians built. Your marvel gods and your flying spaghetti monsters did not have the same impact on humanity.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Indeed, christianity impacted humanity much worse.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Everyone thinks there's a heaven for them for being good when it's just nothingness. They did nothing, they get nothing. Maybe being a good person shouldn't be something that's rewarded with "after you die" because there's not a lot of insensitive for people to treat life like it's valuable in the now.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Why are the most secular countries peaceful, rich and functional while the most religious ones are violent, poor and dysfunctional?
4 months ago
Anonymous
What you mean is why are most Christian countries peaceful, rich, and functional while most Muslim ones are violent, poor, and dysfunctional?
4 months ago
Anonymous
What country are you referring to here? You consider the USA peaceful? Even there you can see people getting shot en masse in the religious south and not so much in the secular north
4 months ago
Anonymous
The United States is like the size of 50 European countries so no duh there's more violence.
4 months ago
Anonymous
per capita as well
4 months ago
Anonymous
those countries got built by religious people and then co opted by secular people. it’s like asking why most western countries are successful and stable- because they were historically white. their peace and stability has been in a downward decline for about half a century and gets worse as secularism grows. the only state atheist counties i’m aware of are china and the former USSR- every other secular nation is parasitic on a religious history, and is in active decline
4 months ago
Anonymous
The very thing you're writing this on is thanks to western civilization and the religion it was built upon.
>because I juggle 2 languages on my day to day life?
struggling with English as a second language is a sign of subpar education. Not knowing who one of the most important figures of the Enlightenment was (high school level education) is another such sign. >I feel like this "higher level" you're talking about
let me spell it out for the intellectually challenged. I am saying that the average person lacks a great deal of required reading to have so much as a chance of interpreting "the bible". Which, by the way, is not the same as having read a KJB once. (Please don't ask what the KJB is, you've disqualfied yourself enough from discourse already)
You're actually still trying to make "ESL" sound like an insult, kek.
Let me spell it out for you, this "higher level" you're talking about boils down to making arguments in bad faith and grossly missinterpreting the bible while acting like you're much better than anyone else while doing it.
>your god is le marvel character
Does that mean you worship a South Park character?
Heh
4 months ago
Anonymous
>The very thing you're writing this on is thanks to western civilization and the religion it was built upon.
Oh, did Jesus teach people to code now? Didn't know that.
4 months ago
Anonymous
I did not say that.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Scientific and technological progress started to happen the moment westerners began to abandon religious thinking, because religion is an impediment to human cognition.
4 months ago
Anonymous
The way I see it human beings need to believe. That's where religion came from, and it might've had good intentions at some point. But from very early on, man realized he can control that desire to worldly ends. So the message is warped and religious institutions are exactly that which they claim to save people from. It could've been real nice, but we had to mess it up.
4 months ago
Anonymous
lmao, that's beyond childish.
Are you just gonna ignore millennia worth of progress made by Christian scientists?
4 months ago
Anonymous
We are talking about someone who doesn't use the gregorian calendar
4 months ago
Anonymous
whig history nonsense. historians don’t take the “dark ages” seriously as a term applied to the whole middle ages and haven’t for a long time. ALL of the foundational figures in modern science, bacon, newton, leibniz, etc, were devout. then you’ve got heisenberg, mendel, gödel who were devout in the recent science.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Wish Jesus woulda just given me the coding skills without the autism, being able to make decent money is good but everything else is very troublesome
4 months ago
Anonymous
So, did you finish high school, anon? >this "higher level" you're talking about boils down to making arguments in bad faith
Not really. I am saying, *any level* beyond the most literal and basal takes a level of education on the subject that the average Christian does not have. The average Christian barely knows what is in the bible, that is fact. That means the average normalgay is literally unable to make good faith arguments based on their own faith. They don't even know it.
4 months ago
Anonymous
"They don't even know it" sounds a whole lot like "They think that my claim about shrimps sending people to hell is ridiculous therefore I'm better than them"
I'm trying to finish law school btw, it's tough but it's been going great, thanks for asking.
4 months ago
Anonymous
>"They don't even know it" sounds a whole lot like
It's nice what you think it sounds like. It does not change the the simple fact that >"Has the majority of Christians read the Bible in full?"
is a yes or no question, and the answer is "no". And to try and interpret a work you haven't even read in full? Come the frick on. > trying to finish law school btw, it's tough
oh it must be for you. Best of luck.
4 months ago
Anonymous
What does that have to do with anything? We started with the simple fact that the claim that shrimps send people to hell is ridiculous and now you've moved the goalpost miles away and started throwing petty insults my way.
I can assure you that more Christians have read the bible than atheists and that still wouldn't change anything.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Where in the bible does it say you won't go to hell for eating shrimp?
4 months ago
Anonymous
I feel like we're running in circles here.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Because this is what you christgays always do.
Now answer the question.
4 months ago
Anonymous
In the bible? It doesn't say that you won't go to hell for eating shrimp.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Well then. See you in hell.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Something about redemption and centuries worth of interpretation my dude. As I said, circles.
4 months ago
Anonymous
In the old testament. Leviticus 11:9-12
Same with cutting your sideburns and having tattoos/piercings
4 months ago
Anonymous
If you read Leviticus it is obviously a Bronze Age 'life hack' manual for hygiene and avoiding disease, and not just for yourself, but for your whole tribe. Which to their credit these ancient gays were smart enough to notice through observation/correlation without the benefit of germ theory, microscopes, or modern medicine. They didn't know how these diseases spread, but they did notice if you went to a gay pagan orgy you tended to come back with leprosy and shit, then start spreading it to other people. In the absence of any visible mechanism and in accordance with the beliefs at the time, it's not insane for them to conclude gays who got sick were somehow being punished by a God/supernatural forces for doing shit he didn't approve of. Either way it shouldn't come as any shock that the concept of 'sin', (that certain things are le bad), should be build around such observations - especially obvious shit that was obvious - like homosexuals tend to spread diseases better than the average bear.
What's really interesting is that knowing what we do now, we can see that some of these observations were off the mark, but a surprising percentage of them weren't fricking wrong. Us having penicillin and shit, still doesn't make them wrong.
So if some gays have a bad reaction to shellfish in 3000BC what might you conclude? That 'shellfish am bad' maybe? And remember they didn't have the benefit of refrigeration or rapid transport back then either. So how far by your calculations would you have to live from an ocean for it to be a bad idea to buy shit like that at a market? Pork shouldn't come as a shock since we share similarities and diseases with pigs.
Your ancestors weren't stupid, they just lacked information. Plenty of people today are actually stupider despite having the internet at their fingertips because they don't learn from history. How many idiots like Viv believe in some crystal-gripping hippie bullshit, karma, or what their astrologer tells them?
4 months ago
Anonymous
We're not living in the bronze age. Given the knowledge we have today the bible should be considered a historical/cultural artifact yet christgays insist the antiquated rules within it are more authorative than modern scientific research.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Meanwhile, anti-religious gays insist on throwing all the hard-won lessons of history away and believing any bullshit that any gay labels 'muh science' along with common sense. If you don't see that Frankenstein surgery doesn't magically turn a man into a woman, I don't know what to tell you. Just don't be shocked if people prefer a 2000 year old book compared to your ridiculous shit.
4 months ago
Anonymous
The fact you're you're able to read this post means you're a beneficiary of modern science.
Sure science and especially soft sciences are not infallible. We had lobotomy now we have trannies. But like the obsessed homosexual you are you reduce all of scientific progress down to trannies despite enjoying unprecedented comfort because of science and secular humanism. If you lived in a theocracy you'd be preoccupied fighting forever religious wars like the muzzies do.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Some people ate bad shrimp, or had allergy in the ancient world. I am blessed to not have to deal with either problems, so eat shrimp I shall continue. When I get to Hell, I'll call Allah on the phone "But haven't you read this post on Cinemaphile? Anon explained how it's not an arbitrary sin you, but a choice made by humans for a logical reason!"
morons missing the point they don't want to see.
Do what you like, but throwing the baby out with the bathwater is always moronic. Thinking 'religion always le bad', and therefore 'muh science always le good' is how you get moronic thinking like Viv's.
Also half you 'muh science' pseud homosexuals wouldn't know actual science if it rammed a Saturn V rocket up your arse and hit ignition.
4 months ago
Anonymous
Do tell, what ancient wisdom am I missing out on?
4 months ago
Anonymous
That human beings are very much the same animal they were back then, and having a computer doesn't change that. You're not as 'enlightened' as you think you are, (and your ancestors weren't as 'unenlighted' as you think), and you'd do well to take advice from long dead people who figured out pretty much everything about being a human being well before you even got here. Start with the fact that you've never had a single original thought in your pathetic fricking life, and go from there.
4 months ago
Anonymous
It’s made by fricking God, anon. His heavenly science is above our earthly science.
4 months ago
Anonymous
i'd like to see evidence of that then
4 months ago
Anonymous
Some people ate bad shrimp, or had allergy in the ancient world. I am blessed to not have to deal with either problems, so eat shrimp I shall continue. When I get to Hell, I'll call Allah on the phone "But haven't you read this post on Cinemaphile? Anon explained how it's not an arbitrary sin you, but a choice made by humans for a logical reason!"
4 months ago
Anonymous
Speaking of leviticus the leprosy shit is so funny to me >"UUUUH NO IT'S NOT ACTUALLY ABOUT CONDEMNING POOR LEPERS TO HELL IT'S A SPIRITUAL DISEASE!"
4 months ago
Anonymous
Do you remember how a Roman soldier got cured by the God of Israel?
4 months ago
Anonymous
Talking more about the commentaries from rabbis and priests but fine, sure.
4 months ago
Anonymous
I have not "moved the goal post" since
Listen gay, if you ask the average Christian what the Q source is they will think it was "a Trump thing or something, right?". Real world religion is mob rule, like it or not, and the mob doesn't even read the primary source to a significant extent. >has been analyzed and interpreted in millions of different ways for centuries
Yes and all of it is factually irrelevant to a troll taking a single line from the bible and quoting it. The quote is correct, which is not the same as "in good faith", or "given in context", but because of the point above it is honestly hilarious you think clergy fanon has any relevance to anybody. Religious internet debate is the battlefield of 20 somethings.
, it just took you an entire conversation to so much as begin to understand my initial post you failed to comprehend, calling it a "word salad".
Maybe I need to help you interpret my own words since you are clearly unable to: >if you ask the average Christian what the Q source is they will [think of QAnon]
This was a joke, but to explain: the (theoretical) Q source is basic b***h Bible history. I am saying the average Christian doesn't even know what it is. >Real world religion is mob rule, [...] the mob doesn't even read the primary source
Here I say that
1) any part of Christianity that is lost on the majority of Christians doesn't fricking matter IRL and
2) that the fact that most Christians haven't even read the bible means that most of it is factually irrelevant to the faith, solely because of the ignorance of the ones practicing >The quote is correct, which is not the same as "in good faith", or "given in context"
This refers to what I said before, Leviticus is written, and it THE TRUTH that it has all these fricktarded little rules about what you should and should not eat. But at the very same time I argue that it is not a good faith argument regardless. I am not siding with the "shrimp = go to hell" take.
What I am saying however is that Christianity IN PRACTICE has very little to do with what the bible says at all, see 1) and 2), and getting upset over that is just intellectually dishonest.
4 months ago
Anonymous
You know what? I agree, somewhat, it's probably more complicated than that and the situation varies greatly from place to place but yeah.
4 months ago
Anonymous
>your god is le marvel character
Does that mean you worship a South Park character?
4 months ago
Anonymous
>arbitrary nonsense
being a homosexual is destroying society, it’s not arbitrary
Take the paradise lost route and have the show be mostly the same but every so often a character will remind the audience that God is still the good guy and the demons are bad for going against him
Specifically Cinemaphile? They'd think it's gay shit, and not the kind they like. Maybe Charlie would be here. Niffty might be on Cinemaphile and Cinemaphile, but mostly /hm/.
We are probably getting closer with the times of the Nephilim with the sights and wonders happening. I do love how even in the show, they can't even bother with Genesis and tried to invert it from the very beginning and then ignore the flood as a consequence of the mingling of fallen angels and man.
Easy instead of the whole war against heaven BS the Hazbin hotel works as a purgatory, from time to time new people show up and do some challenges to see if they can go to heaven, the cast of characters is always changing but only the staff remains the same, also make the episodes be more about good morals instead of "plot plot plot demon secrets plot plot big reveals"
>Demons wreaking havoc on earth >Humans pray to God for help >Angels get contracts from God based on these prayers and are sent to kill the demons causing problems
Have the show be more focused on Charlie rehabilitating people, while Alastor sabotages her efforts in subtle ways. Alastor outwardly helps out with the hotel in superficial ways but gets his jollies in seeing Charlie fail in the end.
Charlie can get some victories in while at the same time gradually take in more and more people who want to be rehabilitated. All while the countdown to the next extermination ticks day by day.
Finally, Charlie is able to overcome the stigma of Hell being unrepentant sinners and even overcomes Alastor’s underminings. And when the angels finally arrive, Charlie shows off her results to the exterminators as she has a sizable group of people who actually WANT to repent and be good. The Angels respond by killing them off. They exchange no words to Charlie or any of the other demons. They just get to exterminating demons like they do any other year.
From there, Charlie tries to save as many of her friends as she can from the angels, but is shattered at the fact that they did not even give her a chance.
From there I kinda get fuzzy. But in the end, while sinners can be redeemed, it is too late to go to Heaven once the Final Judgement has been rendered.
Charlie’s mission, while we’ll-intentioned, is an exercise in futility.
The main characters are angels wishing to redeem recently deceased sinners stuck in purgatory.
Hell would actually be Hell and not just “New York but full of furries.”
Extremely schizo, just like Christian cosmology itself. Gotta include >the Demiurge >Sophia >The Monad >The Diad >The Logos/Jesus (who never had a physical body, he was made of pure energy) >The Devil/Satan >The Holy Spirit >etc, etc, etc
That'd actually be pretty cool. Imagine if hazbin hotel was this weird schizophrenic syncretism of abrahamic religions and god was this force that nobody really understood. Not even angels. Imagine if the actual source of evil was a being like Samael or the demiurge or some conglomerated being of those interpretations of evil and the entire creation of hazbin hotel was because of the multitude of different abrahamic beliefs and the belief is what created it all. That'd be some weird shit but i'd like to see that.
>and the entire creation of hazbin hotel was because of the multitude of different abrahamic beliefs and the belief is what created it all
This one part is too deep for me, I feel low IQ reading that.
I mean like, the idea of the afterlife is abstract, yeah? Well what if it was like a Plato's world of ideas thing where everything relating to abrahamic religions happen to exist because they exist as ideas. It's another example of the abstract but they draw their origins to abraham. I like to imagine there's be all kinds of abrahamic religious folk fighting down there like israelites that follow moloch or maybe muslims who ate pork or christian priests who were pedophiles. Add mormons in there due to them being heretical and have gnostics never appear due to them either reincarnating or returning to the plemora. OH you could have a major antagonist be the leviathan (envy) who takes another form in gnosticism where he tries to prevent people from returning to the plemora.
Yeah, and since they're all in the pride ring, they all have this idea that they are the superior people with the superior religion. It would tie in to the whole redemption thing with people overcoming ego and pride. It wouldn't just be religious folk though, it would just be a bunch of people with pride.
It's funny considering that. In a simple change of premise, you could have an empathetic angel set up a hotel for sinners to redeemed to show Heaven that no soul is truly lost, which if you read certain interpretations of the Bible that one day Jesus himself would come down and release those that have proven to have served their punishment and for their souls to redeemed.
To be quite fair, a lot of modern ideas of the bible are fanfiction in one way or another because everyone reads updated/modern translation versions of scripture or just plain don't read it at all.
The idea of having a rehabilitation center in Hell to redeem sinners is actually an interesting concept.
The show had a great premise but as has been said a million times the execution is terrible.
Not sure what exactly you'd need to do to make it appeal to Christians considering the large margin of what some devotes would find acceptable and others heretical. Personally I don't mind the show, and I already know that Viv has a chip on her shoulder against God, which is what makes the show the way it is. In the end trying to make it appeal to all or even some Christians would drastically change so many things I doubt it would be the same show except maybe by some of its premise.
Honestly all the pieces are there just gotta rework it a bit. Like, Adam being a dickhead is not a bad idea, but it is too over the top and the fact most of heaven doesn't mind it destroys a point they could have about all Humans have sin inside of them. Having the focal point of redemption being Angel Dust isn't a bad idea with a broken coked up prostitute, but it is happening way too quickly and isn't as satisfying. This is also not saying anything about what Alastor truly wants with the hotel, which is still up in air quality wise for me depending which direction they go in.
I agree.
The entire plot and its "hopeful" premise was shot down the grave the moment episode one aired. It honestly seems like it's building up into hell goes to war with heaven route, which would be fine on its own but completely sidelines the shows starting setting.
I'm just kinda hoping that when the "war" starts, Charlie realizes that this is not the correct way and tries to get on both Hell's and Heaven's good side to work out a better system.
Yeah the original premise of the pilot is as solid as it could get. The whole "Hell is other people" isn't even that far off from many Christian interpretations of it.
>Not sure what exactly you'd need to do to make it appeal to Christians considering the large margin of what some devotes would find acceptable and others heretical.
I would say just dial back the fedora-tipping and showcase Heaven as antagonistic yet not fundamentally evil (beyond maybe a Very Special Episode where Charlie debates/fights with the exterminators specifically, since there's some parallels to real world genocides in there). Christianity is a religion with a billion fricking people practicing it so what goes and doesn't go is going to vary extremely wildly.
Funnily enough most of the people criticizing this show are actually progressive Christians and culturally Christian atheists, because that's the demographic that's the most willing to give the premise a chance, whereas the puritanical fundies and the weird cultish sects either don't know it's a thing or are actively avoiding it.
Honestly all the pieces are there just gotta rework it a bit. Like, Adam being a dickhead is not a bad idea, but it is too over the top and the fact most of heaven doesn't mind it destroys a point they could have about all Humans have sin inside of them. Having the focal point of redemption being Angel Dust isn't a bad idea with a broken coked up prostitute, but it is happening way too quickly and isn't as satisfying. This is also not saying anything about what Alastor truly wants with the hotel, which is still up in air quality wise for me depending which direction they go in.
Many characters in the show are completely fricked writing-wise because Vivienne and Raph cannot help themselves, especially with the abusive men. Realistically (bear with me) people like Adam and Val would not get away with their abusive tendencies the way they are now, they're so fricking blatant about their childish sadism that there's no fricking way anyone would willingly get close to them (especially in Adam's case), but because the director and the head animator are not subtle about their rape/non-con/abuse fetishes you keep getting these card-carrying villains.
Speaking of Angel, the problem is that the show is way too fricking rushed. I get 8 episodes is a bad deal, but given how big of a hit the show has turned out to be, it was a bad move to try and cram 20 episodes' worth of content into 8 instead of ending S1 on a "cliffhanger" because you know a greenlight is incoming.
Val I get why he is the way he is, typical silver tongue devil who has faustian deals of fame and love in exchange for their body. Adam just confuses me of why anyone would tolerate him.
He seems to be akin to a dumb attack dog considering how dismissive Sera and the court was of him, but this show isn't very good about actually conveying information properly.
>but this show isn't very good about actually conveying information properly.
viv had to really toss out a lot of preestablished logic to hammer in that everyone in hell is secretly good, please understand.
>Adam just confuses me of why anyone would tolerate him.
They tolerate him because Heaven very obviously needs sinners to fight their battles for them
I can see a plot line where exorcists realize they'll be cast out from Heaven once they kill all of Hell
Freaking good picture my sides ahhahahahhah
"Hey Lois remember that time that I hosted that radio show?"
"Petah! You better not get involved with the radio demons again"
"Hey Peter, the boys are going to make a podcast. Wanna join us?"
"Holy shit! Count me in Joe! This is going to be like that time I hosted a radio show"
"Petah please listen to me"
All I'd do is make the angels genuinely good, make Charlies goal a struggle to save many (from unfortunate victims to people who are so genuinely evil they Challange Charlie's goal) but ultimately sucessful, and have it end with some form of Apocatastasis with questions over universalism, free will, and pride
If the show had gone with the concept of more fallen angels alongside Lucifer and or Satan according to Christian scripture, it would've been interesting if the exterminations of human sinners in hell were committed by them instead for a specific purpose of maintaining easier control over hell's populace and or planning for war against heaven.
Adam himself was just a sinner posing as an angel to manipulate Charlie into thinking she was actually speaking directly to a representative from heaven when she never was, all in an attempt to force her into giving up on redeeming sinners in hell as that would completely frick with everything.
And all of this would be exposed near the end by Charlie when she manages to speak to those in heaven directly and learn the truth.
This would've made Lucifer into an actual antagonistic character though who still has ambitions as the ruler of hell which comes into conflict with his bond with his daughter, Charlie.
The demons are fallen angels who hate humans for existing and want to prove that the damned human souls are irredeemable so God will greenlight the extermination of the damned, which they hope will be the first step in wiping out humanity entirely. The heroes are demons who, like Abraham in Sodom, are frantically trying to redeem souls to prove the damned are salvageable and that the extermination would therefor be unjust. Over time it's revealed that humans were originally supposed to outrank angels and that they could still do so in the future if they get their shit together, and the butthurt over this was what caused the first generation of demons to reject the divine plan fall. The demons deeply resent humans and God but are kind of schizo about it and think of their activities as holy work, generally run their society as a warped and edgy but sincere imitation of the heavenly court with themselves as the aristocracy, and look forward to the day God admits they were right all along and restores them to their positions in heaven.
No just an idea for a plotline based on traditional demonology, since in Christian thought demons are mainly motivated by spite over the plans God has for humanity.
>Jesus vs Satan trying to win over a young adult >Jesus is somewhat boring but calm, while Satan is kind of like Hazbin Lucifer: gaudy, fun, and unimposing >As series goes on, we start to see Jesus's true personality as a confident, yet merciful king emerge, while Satan's personality is a ruse to draw people in,and he's actually blood thirsty, malicious, and wants nothing more but to corrupt humanity to sin.
God tells Satan "You know, I would have given them the forbidden fruit eventually, LEGALLY. It was a test for both you and them. Guess who's not coming back, and it isn't Adam."
Keep the original premise that the pilot set up, make it a show about attempting to redeem the people of Hell. Keep Lucifer as the antagonist he was hinted to be. Make the gangwar shit the B plot of the episodes, hint at the Heaven VS Hell thing, but don't have a fricking Heaven embassy in Hell that's stupid.
>Make the show for Christians
Heavily draw from C.S. Lewis' book, 'The Great Divorce' where sinners in Hell are given the opportunity visit Heaven, repent and continue living in Heaven. But almost all of them give way to various excuses, self-deceptions and refuse to repent, choosing instead to continue living in misery in Hell
You can't really make things fun/lighthearted when pandering to a christgay audience. Like all cultists they have a stick firmly buried up their buttholes. The best you can hope for is toddler safe shit like Kingdom Chums, or shit that's so bad it becomes funny, like Joshua and the Promised Land.
I think its because most American Xians with the means to make a show are normiecore Used Car Dealership boomers who only know cartoons they watched as very young kids.
The only Xians with that passionate creative spark are sadly demented online Tradcaths who, if given a blank check by some ministry, would make some uberviolent revenge porn Warhammer shit that very few people would find appealing.
>The only Xians with that passionate creative spark are sadly demented online Tradcaths who, if given a blank check by some ministry, would make some uberviolent revenge porn Warhammer shit that very few people would find appealing.
no need to name names
I don't think you can, at least not without breaking the rules of the good book.
Hell and heaven are very much the "finale" of christian lives, you don't really get to discuss it unless you're secretly a heretic. At least not in a way that would be viable to create a cartoon over.
>Keep the original premise from the pilot. >Have the show be closer and more accurate to scripture, apocrypha, and maybe some Catholic teachings. >The angels are not evil, and from heaven's eyes, the exterminations are seen as merciful. >Lucifer and Alastor are villains who try to bring down Charlie and her goal, but in different ways. >As the show progresses, Charlie learns what it truly means to be redeemed. >Charlie comes to the realization that many of her people are in hell for a reason, but she doesn't let that stop her. >At the end, the hotel basically becomes purgatory.
That's just a summary of what I'd do. I think if hazbin really honed in on the second point, it would do a lot more for adult animation in terms of storytelling.
by making Adam the main character
They already did
It's an angel sent to hell and she thinks it's gonna be really bad but it's okay. There are some crazy psychopaths but she makes friends who seem to tolerate her. She tries to figure out ways to get back to heaven but is also torn because the demons and sinners who keep helping her are either doing it because they are starting to genuinely change or they think they can trick her into letting them go there instead.
Cancel it?? Never produce it?
>Ctrl+A
>Del
Easy
it'd certainly improve the series but I don't think Delboy would lure in all those Christians
>"This tart really thinks she can purify souwls?! If that wuh possible don't ya think we wudint be down heah in the furst plice?! Rodney... don't tell me you actually believe this codswallop..."
>"I 'unno Del, I'm reely hopin I can sawt've move mah way up in the wuhld- aftehwuhld, 'm really hopin I's can see mum again some day and we can be a big happy family."
>"Rodney! Don't tell me you're actually thinking of movin' into this 'otel?!"
>(defiantly) "I already have! And if YOU don't want your own bruvva improving his sewf then YOU can just stay down heah wif all da sinnas!"
>"Ya mean ya movin outta the old shack we done got when we first come heah? You really gonna do that to your flesh and blad? When poor owl mum died off she done told me to take care of ya, and you ain't exactly makin it easy on me, pallin' aroun with that radio demon anaw dat!"
>"'e's noice!"
>"The hell 'e is Rodney, 'e's only stickin' aroun to larf at ya! I seen his type plenty befaw!"
>"Wot, people lawfin at ya?"
>"Lawfin at YOU, Rodney! 'oo do you think's been keepin aw these bullies at bay ya whole aftalife?! It ain't been owah bloody lawd above outta his good koindness!"
>"Aw geez del, I don't know what to say. If you really don't want to see mum again..."
>"Now don't you go bringin ap mahm just when it's convenient awright?!"
It would just be gays and other minorities getting graphically tortured in a million ways. While the self insert character looks down from above smirking "told you so". We all know christgays get off to that thought.
Christcucks: "Don't do [obvious dumb shit] that has [obvious negative consequences]."
Degenerates: "Don't tell me what to do! I'm a special snowflake that is somehow exempt from the laws or the universe, physics, biology, and statistics, and I'm cool so I wont suffer the [obvious consequences]", (while sucking on a crack pipe).
Christcucks: "No seriously dude. I care about you, and I don't want you to frick up your life."
Degenerates: "Frick you! I do what I want."
>SpongebobTwoWeeksLater.jpg
Degenratates: "I fricked up my life."
Christcucks: "Yeah no shit."
Degenerates: "You WANTED that to happen just so you could say 'I told you so', point and laugh, and get off on my misery!
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! I'm a victim!"
You don't even need God to exist to know where the problem is. There are just monkeys who pay attention to the good advice from all the monkeys who saw other monkeys frick up for thousands of generations and worked out some basic rules to live by, and n00b monkeys who don't think they have to listen because they're somehow experts at life. When they find out they're not, it's everyone else's fault for being right. They're the ones who are le bad.
lol. that's lot of strawmanning right there
>acting like you deboonked something with a big word you don't even understand in a tweet
Go back.
What do you think strawmanning means?
>he doubles down on it
Why do every christgay immediately end up aggressively dishonest at the slightest pressure?
I know what you think it means. It's word you think you can disingenuously use to avoid the truth when you hear it.
>Why do every christgay immediately end up aggressively dishonest at the slightest pressure?
Irony.
>hey man stop being a nymphomaniac you'll get AIDS
>"no frick you CHUD I do what I want"
*2 weeks later*
>"wtf I have AIDS now I'm gonna die YOU wanted this."
>No not really, I'm sorry your actions had consequences and that you didn't listen to me.
thats stupid he should've just opened the door and said
>dad that's not my flag yeah it looks the same but it ain't mine man it's a coincidence
absolutely stupid of him honestly didn't even change how his room looks for his shoots I bet
Is this true did tucker really show a astolfo cosplayer in the news
>Christcucks: shit they'd never say
Most of these people are satanists they genuinely take pleasure in the idea of people they hate burning in hell so realistically they'd gloat about how they're going to heaven, and the crack head is going to hell. Yeah degenerates are buttholes but so are most christian's. Heck same could be said of most religious people. Can't blame them though considering most religions tell their followers that they're special and everyone else is gay. Or at least thats how most people interpret their religions.
>projecting
Not how it works at all.
>Justice must be tempered with compassion, but compassion must also be tempered with justice
Because if you don't do both, you're either being too much of a hardass or a total sucker.
Since degenerates want everything to go their way all the time, literally have their cake and eat it too, they selfishly act without self-restraint and then when they get the predictable consequences, (their 'just' desserts), they demand everyone show them only UNTEMPERED compassion, and call them an arsehole if they don't. They literally make their bullshit everyone else's problem, as usual.
Take some junkie begging on the street. If a total cure for drug addiction were invented tomorrow I'd be more happy about it than they would be. They'd be happy for themselves, but I'd be happy for literally everyone - including people who aren't junkies, because nobody would have to deal with the unnecessary costs of that bullshit anymore. Not the drug addicts themselves, nor the other people they directly hurt in the process, nor them externalising the costs of their dumb decisions more generally, (not just talking about monetary costs either).
I'd be happy to see people going back to a normal life, but I'd still have to wonder about this person's character/decision making process when it comes to them avoiding other dumb shit I can't fix. And it was never about me just personally thinking 'crack am bad', but just that prevention is better than non-existent cure. Just like I think smoking is moronic, but don't give two shits if you vape all the non-addictive fruit-flavoured crap you want.
>If smoking cigarettes wasn't addictive, deleterious to the body, and so costly due to overtaxation, I'd be doing it myself because I think it looks kinda cool and kinda like the smell. If they make a cure for all that I'll start tomorrow. Maybe I'll start when I'm at death's door anyway, because what better time to start something that has long-term effects?
>you're projecting!
Okay well now you're just shit posting dude.
>triggered by truth.
Nice fanfic christcuck
You seem upset.
Here's a (You) so you can misunderstand it as me being mad and therefore keep posting weird shit for me to read.
I'll take that as a yes.
>other minorities getting graphically tortured in a million ways
Minorities are more likely the Christian than white people in America. The majority of Christians in the world are non-white.
in western countries christians are mostly white on average. you’re over estimating how many people identify as atheist. the vast majority of whites in america identity as protestant, almost 80%
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/compare/religious-tradition/by/racial-and-ethnic-composition/
Not quite that high, stats from 2014 had white protestants at 48%, white catholics at 19%, mormons at 2%, israelites at 3%, and white irreligious at 24%.
Granted, a lot but not all irrelegious Americans come from burnt out Protestants so you could say it's higher than 48% if you count those who identify culturally
>44% of americans identify as white christian
>america is like 56% white
that’s a massive majority
it’s mostly atheists who want to import more shitskins too
25% is a lot, but not a majority
Because atheism in the US is pure anti-puritanism/anti-radical reformation/anti-evangelicalism/whatever you want to call it. Mass-immigration is one of the ways they can ensure Puritan culture does not come back. The entire history of the US is just Puritans fighting their burnt out children while dragging in other cultures to get an advantage
(another anon)
You're not entirely wrong. "I believe in something I guess but this version of Christianity I don't want" can be called "atheist", kinda.
I've been reading a book about Flannery O'Conner and the South, and it has really convinced me (as of two chapters in), is that a lot of people are effectively atheist, but social norms mean that, "yes we go to church because we are good people, but because we are good people we don't care about the church" paradox a lot of Americans (and specifically Southern's) experience.
Also what even is it? Like isn't it relationship drama with "the most horrible people turned good" disguised as something else?
The only way I can see it is if something during/right after the civil war as poor white Christian families trying to grapple with the fact that they supported so cruel a system under the guise of hierarchical compassion/protection, while now interacting with poor black families. Like it would have the theological crap slinging a plenty but the general "everyone cusses and talks about sex" would be pretty lost on something that would probably be a slow burn. But because we are talking about America, and redemption in the worst of places, that could be a symbolic parallel without explicitly stating "this is symbolic of people trying to redeem themselves from hell they created."
Oh yeah like Detroit and Chicago is the South. There is obviously problems, but acting like you can just boil down the entire state a region by comparing physical violence, doesn't equal the social capital a region has. Though honestly the entire United States is getting homogenized to where most people are so isolated and work oriented the compassion we should have between each other just isn't there anymore. 9/11 did jack all for unity, and any other "horrible tragedy" that comes out of the woodwork. It a much deeper stain than "wow people really like to shoot guns."
Jans are pretty good about culling threads, when it feels like it's here for a pol talk. Just wanted to compliment that.
>imagine being such a cuck homosexual who needs someone to tell you what you can and can't say you get down on your knees and literally suck janny wiener, man this place has gone to shit
But anon, Hazbin already IS for Christian audiences. Sure, there are some weird protestant sects that make "christian" "television". But I mean these weird, disgusting freaks also circumcise their children like muslims, so why should it be a surprise they also have a fricked up version of halal?
Heaven would be le good, actually.
... and there would be no plot, one side would be filled with child rapists and mass murderers and the other one wouldn't, it'd be as white and black as it could get.
child rapists, mass murderers and shrimp eaters
That'd be for smug redditors, not christians.
I mean yes it's fedora atheists that point out the shrimp thing, but they are just as correct about that as incels calling out particular kinds of woman. The truth does not care if it comes out of a cringelord.
No, the bible has been analyzed and interpreted in millions of different ways for centuries. Some homosexual redditor whose only knowledge about the bible comes from shit r/atheism memes does not know the "truth".
Curious how every christgay ever considers the ACKSHUAL truth to be one that doesn't incriminate themselves.
You sound pretty mad, I'm sorry that I don't believe that my loving god would punish someone eternally for eating shrimp.
Seems like you only pay heed to the parts of the bible that are convenient for yourself.
Listen gay, if you ask the average Christian what the Q source is they will think it was "a Trump thing or something, right?". Real world religion is mob rule, like it or not, and the mob doesn't even read the primary source to a significant extent.
>has been analyzed and interpreted in millions of different ways for centuries
Yes and all of it is factually irrelevant to a troll taking a single line from the bible and quoting it. The quote is correct, which is not the same as "in good faith", or "given in context", but because of the point above it is honestly hilarious you think clergy fanon has any relevance to anybody. Religious internet debate is the battlefield of 20 somethings.
>muh trump
What are you even trying to say? Cool word salad.
Nope, interpreting and ignoring are two very different things.
>Cool word salad.
ESL. Let's try again.
1) knowing even basic shit about the Bible is already too much for normalgays (example: Q source)
2) Leviticus 11:9-12 is written in the bible. That is truth, simple as.
It is extremely childish to think civilization has been built on a literal interpretation of the bible. Maybe not as childish as thinking calling someone bilingual is some sort of insult, though.
>It is extremely childish to think civilization has been built on a literal interpretation of the bible.
I don't think that. One of the most important figures of modern philosophy essentially turned christian values into a rationalist moral system. The man was named Immanuel Kant.
What I DO think is that the vast majority of Christians are not capable of interpreting the bible on a higher level, because (again) they barely know what is in the book.
>calling someone bilingual is some sort of insult, though.
of course the ESL does not understand the connotation of the term and gets hung up on the denotation. Next you'll accuse me of using "big words".
>Immanuel Kant
Who?
>the vast majority of Christians are not capable of interpreting the bible on a higher level
I feel like this "higher level" you're talking about speaks volumes about your true intentions when it comes to interpreting the bible, anon.
>of course the ESL does not understand the connotation of the term
The connotation that my english grammar isn't the best because I juggle 2 languages on my day to day life? You really owned me there.
>because I juggle 2 languages on my day to day life?
struggling with English as a second language is a sign of subpar education. Not knowing who one of the most important figures of the Enlightenment was (high school level education) is another such sign.
>I feel like this "higher level" you're talking about
let me spell it out for the intellectually challenged. I am saying that the average person lacks a great deal of required reading to have so much as a chance of interpreting "the bible". Which, by the way, is not the same as having read a KJB once. (Please don't ask what the KJB is, you've disqualfied yourself enough from discourse already)
>Nope, interpreting and ignoring are two very different things.
There isn't a single christgay out there who doesn't "interpret" the bible according to their own biases and prejudices.
How do I know this? Because you can't exist in modern society and also follow the Bible. An actual christian would not browse this website to begin with. You're all a bunch of larpers sporting an aggressive and unwarranted superiority complex.
You're making up your own rules to try to encourage Christians not to participate in society. We have things like priests, theologians, cardinals for what you pretend to do.
god knows about your proclivities guy and you're going to burn in hell for them
Who hurt you? You sound extremely aggresive for no real reason.
The bible is an extremely cryptic book written centuries ago! the ancestors of my ancestors we're as christian as I am, so why wouldn't I put my interpretation of it to a higher value than yours when you're clearly just trying to discredit it?
I consider viking religion as part of my ancestry and I find great value in those texts. However I don't get a lot larping morons insisting Thor is throwing ligtning bolts around in the sky while trying to shove antiquated and arbitrary morals down my throat.
My relationship with the Bible wouldn't be as sour if weren't for its schizophrenic and overbearing fanbase. I'd love to appreciate it as an historical record and culturally significant text but it's difficult when I'm told on the daily I ought to be stoned or whatever over arbitrary nonsense.
Ultimately religion wouldn't exist at all if adherents weren't useful idiots for whatever political agenda.
The "Viking religion" is only responsable for plundering the civilization Christians built. Your marvel gods and your flying spaghetti monsters did not have the same impact on humanity.
Indeed, christianity impacted humanity much worse.
Everyone thinks there's a heaven for them for being good when it's just nothingness. They did nothing, they get nothing. Maybe being a good person shouldn't be something that's rewarded with "after you die" because there's not a lot of insensitive for people to treat life like it's valuable in the now.
Why are the most secular countries peaceful, rich and functional while the most religious ones are violent, poor and dysfunctional?
What you mean is why are most Christian countries peaceful, rich, and functional while most Muslim ones are violent, poor, and dysfunctional?
What country are you referring to here? You consider the USA peaceful? Even there you can see people getting shot en masse in the religious south and not so much in the secular north
The United States is like the size of 50 European countries so no duh there's more violence.
per capita as well
those countries got built by religious people and then co opted by secular people. it’s like asking why most western countries are successful and stable- because they were historically white. their peace and stability has been in a downward decline for about half a century and gets worse as secularism grows. the only state atheist counties i’m aware of are china and the former USSR- every other secular nation is parasitic on a religious history, and is in active decline
The very thing you're writing this on is thanks to western civilization and the religion it was built upon.
You're actually still trying to make "ESL" sound like an insult, kek.
Let me spell it out for you, this "higher level" you're talking about boils down to making arguments in bad faith and grossly missinterpreting the bible while acting like you're much better than anyone else while doing it.
Heh
>The very thing you're writing this on is thanks to western civilization and the religion it was built upon.
Oh, did Jesus teach people to code now? Didn't know that.
I did not say that.
Scientific and technological progress started to happen the moment westerners began to abandon religious thinking, because religion is an impediment to human cognition.
The way I see it human beings need to believe. That's where religion came from, and it might've had good intentions at some point. But from very early on, man realized he can control that desire to worldly ends. So the message is warped and religious institutions are exactly that which they claim to save people from. It could've been real nice, but we had to mess it up.
lmao, that's beyond childish.
Are you just gonna ignore millennia worth of progress made by Christian scientists?
We are talking about someone who doesn't use the gregorian calendar
whig history nonsense. historians don’t take the “dark ages” seriously as a term applied to the whole middle ages and haven’t for a long time. ALL of the foundational figures in modern science, bacon, newton, leibniz, etc, were devout. then you’ve got heisenberg, mendel, gödel who were devout in the recent science.
Wish Jesus woulda just given me the coding skills without the autism, being able to make decent money is good but everything else is very troublesome
So, did you finish high school, anon?
>this "higher level" you're talking about boils down to making arguments in bad faith
Not really. I am saying, *any level* beyond the most literal and basal takes a level of education on the subject that the average Christian does not have. The average Christian barely knows what is in the bible, that is fact. That means the average normalgay is literally unable to make good faith arguments based on their own faith. They don't even know it.
"They don't even know it" sounds a whole lot like "They think that my claim about shrimps sending people to hell is ridiculous therefore I'm better than them"
I'm trying to finish law school btw, it's tough but it's been going great, thanks for asking.
>"They don't even know it" sounds a whole lot like
It's nice what you think it sounds like. It does not change the the simple fact that
>"Has the majority of Christians read the Bible in full?"
is a yes or no question, and the answer is "no". And to try and interpret a work you haven't even read in full? Come the frick on.
> trying to finish law school btw, it's tough
oh it must be for you. Best of luck.
What does that have to do with anything? We started with the simple fact that the claim that shrimps send people to hell is ridiculous and now you've moved the goalpost miles away and started throwing petty insults my way.
I can assure you that more Christians have read the bible than atheists and that still wouldn't change anything.
Where in the bible does it say you won't go to hell for eating shrimp?
I feel like we're running in circles here.
Because this is what you christgays always do.
Now answer the question.
In the bible? It doesn't say that you won't go to hell for eating shrimp.
Well then. See you in hell.
Something about redemption and centuries worth of interpretation my dude. As I said, circles.
In the old testament. Leviticus 11:9-12
Same with cutting your sideburns and having tattoos/piercings
If you read Leviticus it is obviously a Bronze Age 'life hack' manual for hygiene and avoiding disease, and not just for yourself, but for your whole tribe. Which to their credit these ancient gays were smart enough to notice through observation/correlation without the benefit of germ theory, microscopes, or modern medicine. They didn't know how these diseases spread, but they did notice if you went to a gay pagan orgy you tended to come back with leprosy and shit, then start spreading it to other people. In the absence of any visible mechanism and in accordance with the beliefs at the time, it's not insane for them to conclude gays who got sick were somehow being punished by a God/supernatural forces for doing shit he didn't approve of. Either way it shouldn't come as any shock that the concept of 'sin', (that certain things are le bad), should be build around such observations - especially obvious shit that was obvious - like homosexuals tend to spread diseases better than the average bear.
What's really interesting is that knowing what we do now, we can see that some of these observations were off the mark, but a surprising percentage of them weren't fricking wrong. Us having penicillin and shit, still doesn't make them wrong.
So if some gays have a bad reaction to shellfish in 3000BC what might you conclude? That 'shellfish am bad' maybe? And remember they didn't have the benefit of refrigeration or rapid transport back then either. So how far by your calculations would you have to live from an ocean for it to be a bad idea to buy shit like that at a market? Pork shouldn't come as a shock since we share similarities and diseases with pigs.
Your ancestors weren't stupid, they just lacked information. Plenty of people today are actually stupider despite having the internet at their fingertips because they don't learn from history. How many idiots like Viv believe in some crystal-gripping hippie bullshit, karma, or what their astrologer tells them?
We're not living in the bronze age. Given the knowledge we have today the bible should be considered a historical/cultural artifact yet christgays insist the antiquated rules within it are more authorative than modern scientific research.
Meanwhile, anti-religious gays insist on throwing all the hard-won lessons of history away and believing any bullshit that any gay labels 'muh science' along with common sense. If you don't see that Frankenstein surgery doesn't magically turn a man into a woman, I don't know what to tell you. Just don't be shocked if people prefer a 2000 year old book compared to your ridiculous shit.
The fact you're you're able to read this post means you're a beneficiary of modern science.
Sure science and especially soft sciences are not infallible. We had lobotomy now we have trannies. But like the obsessed homosexual you are you reduce all of scientific progress down to trannies despite enjoying unprecedented comfort because of science and secular humanism. If you lived in a theocracy you'd be preoccupied fighting forever religious wars like the muzzies do.
morons missing the point they don't want to see.
Do what you like, but throwing the baby out with the bathwater is always moronic. Thinking 'religion always le bad', and therefore 'muh science always le good' is how you get moronic thinking like Viv's.
Also half you 'muh science' pseud homosexuals wouldn't know actual science if it rammed a Saturn V rocket up your arse and hit ignition.
Do tell, what ancient wisdom am I missing out on?
That human beings are very much the same animal they were back then, and having a computer doesn't change that. You're not as 'enlightened' as you think you are, (and your ancestors weren't as 'unenlighted' as you think), and you'd do well to take advice from long dead people who figured out pretty much everything about being a human being well before you even got here. Start with the fact that you've never had a single original thought in your pathetic fricking life, and go from there.
It’s made by fricking God, anon. His heavenly science is above our earthly science.
i'd like to see evidence of that then
Some people ate bad shrimp, or had allergy in the ancient world. I am blessed to not have to deal with either problems, so eat shrimp I shall continue. When I get to Hell, I'll call Allah on the phone "But haven't you read this post on Cinemaphile? Anon explained how it's not an arbitrary sin you, but a choice made by humans for a logical reason!"
Speaking of leviticus the leprosy shit is so funny to me
>"UUUUH NO IT'S NOT ACTUALLY ABOUT CONDEMNING POOR LEPERS TO HELL IT'S A SPIRITUAL DISEASE!"
Do you remember how a Roman soldier got cured by the God of Israel?
Talking more about the commentaries from rabbis and priests but fine, sure.
I have not "moved the goal post" since
, it just took you an entire conversation to so much as begin to understand my initial post you failed to comprehend, calling it a "word salad".
Maybe I need to help you interpret my own words since you are clearly unable to:
>if you ask the average Christian what the Q source is they will [think of QAnon]
This was a joke, but to explain: the (theoretical) Q source is basic b***h Bible history. I am saying the average Christian doesn't even know what it is.
>Real world religion is mob rule, [...] the mob doesn't even read the primary source
Here I say that
1) any part of Christianity that is lost on the majority of Christians doesn't fricking matter IRL and
2) that the fact that most Christians haven't even read the bible means that most of it is factually irrelevant to the faith, solely because of the ignorance of the ones practicing
>The quote is correct, which is not the same as "in good faith", or "given in context"
This refers to what I said before, Leviticus is written, and it THE TRUTH that it has all these fricktarded little rules about what you should and should not eat. But at the very same time I argue that it is not a good faith argument regardless. I am not siding with the "shrimp = go to hell" take.
What I am saying however is that Christianity IN PRACTICE has very little to do with what the bible says at all, see 1) and 2), and getting upset over that is just intellectually dishonest.
You know what? I agree, somewhat, it's probably more complicated than that and the situation varies greatly from place to place but yeah.
>your god is le marvel character
Does that mean you worship a South Park character?
>arbitrary nonsense
being a homosexual is destroying society, it’s not arbitrary
Twitter user and Cinemaphilener will be the most bottom of hell
>The fricking shrimp argument
Mark 7:19 literally states all animals are fine to eat.
Literally just don’t make heaven bad/stupid
I'm already making a webcomic for that, Kesha lyrics and all
Verbalase and lightbringer
?si=bFRi1CbOJJT3QDiF
They REALLY wanted Charlie to be a Disney Princess.
An angel wants to bring heaven to the sinners
the frick is going on with Husk's face?
Poorly drawn.
BLEACHED
That would be like Dante's Inferno (the video game). An angel goes to hell and redeemed sinners and get out of hell.
Take the paradise lost route and have the show be mostly the same but every so often a character will remind the audience that God is still the good guy and the demons are bad for going against him
Pagan gods are weak its why they lost all their land and people.
It would only appeal to Catholics I guess, but set the story in Purgatory while exterminations send souls to actual Hell
How would the characters feel about Cinemaphile?
Specifically Cinemaphile? They'd think it's gay shit, and not the kind they like. Maybe Charlie would be here. Niffty might be on Cinemaphile and Cinemaphile, but mostly /hm/.
val would be grooming new employees on /LULZ/
Proneboning Mimzy
Why would you?
Just because
We are probably getting closer with the times of the Nephilim with the sights and wonders happening. I do love how even in the show, they can't even bother with Genesis and tried to invert it from the very beginning and then ignore the flood as a consequence of the mingling of fallen angels and man.
Easy instead of the whole war against heaven BS the Hazbin hotel works as a purgatory, from time to time new people show up and do some challenges to see if they can go to heaven, the cast of characters is always changing but only the staff remains the same, also make the episodes be more about good morals instead of "plot plot plot demon secrets plot plot big reveals"
you gotta add fruits and vegetables
>Demons wreaking havoc on earth
>Humans pray to God for help
>Angels get contracts from God based on these prayers and are sent to kill the demons causing problems
I’ll bite.
Have the show be more focused on Charlie rehabilitating people, while Alastor sabotages her efforts in subtle ways. Alastor outwardly helps out with the hotel in superficial ways but gets his jollies in seeing Charlie fail in the end.
Charlie can get some victories in while at the same time gradually take in more and more people who want to be rehabilitated. All while the countdown to the next extermination ticks day by day.
Finally, Charlie is able to overcome the stigma of Hell being unrepentant sinners and even overcomes Alastor’s underminings. And when the angels finally arrive, Charlie shows off her results to the exterminators as she has a sizable group of people who actually WANT to repent and be good. The Angels respond by killing them off. They exchange no words to Charlie or any of the other demons. They just get to exterminating demons like they do any other year.
From there, Charlie tries to save as many of her friends as she can from the angels, but is shattered at the fact that they did not even give her a chance.
From there I kinda get fuzzy. But in the end, while sinners can be redeemed, it is too late to go to Heaven once the Final Judgement has been rendered.
Charlie’s mission, while we’ll-intentioned, is an exercise in futility.
The main characters are angels wishing to redeem recently deceased sinners stuck in purgatory.
Hell would actually be Hell and not just “New York but full of furries.”
Extremely schizo, just like Christian cosmology itself. Gotta include
>the Demiurge
>Sophia
>The Monad
>The Diad
>The Logos/Jesus (who never had a physical body, he was made of pure energy)
>The Devil/Satan
>The Holy Spirit
>etc, etc, etc
That'd actually be pretty cool. Imagine if hazbin hotel was this weird schizophrenic syncretism of abrahamic religions and god was this force that nobody really understood. Not even angels. Imagine if the actual source of evil was a being like Samael or the demiurge or some conglomerated being of those interpretations of evil and the entire creation of hazbin hotel was because of the multitude of different abrahamic beliefs and the belief is what created it all. That'd be some weird shit but i'd like to see that.
>and the entire creation of hazbin hotel was because of the multitude of different abrahamic beliefs and the belief is what created it all
This one part is too deep for me, I feel low IQ reading that.
I mean like, the idea of the afterlife is abstract, yeah? Well what if it was like a Plato's world of ideas thing where everything relating to abrahamic religions happen to exist because they exist as ideas. It's another example of the abstract but they draw their origins to abraham. I like to imagine there's be all kinds of abrahamic religious folk fighting down there like israelites that follow moloch or maybe muslims who ate pork or christian priests who were pedophiles. Add mormons in there due to them being heretical and have gnostics never appear due to them either reincarnating or returning to the plemora. OH you could have a major antagonist be the leviathan (envy) who takes another form in gnosticism where he tries to prevent people from returning to the plemora.
So, a hotel filled with gnostic schizos fighting each other over what the nature of reality truly is? I'd watch that too.
Yeah, and since they're all in the pride ring, they all have this idea that they are the superior people with the superior religion. It would tie in to the whole redemption thing with people overcoming ego and pride. It wouldn't just be religious folk though, it would just be a bunch of people with pride.
That is too esoteric for Cinemaphile, but based.
I think one of Arnold's arms was cut out improperly.
Which strain of christian theology are we basing it on?
The correct one, of course!
Honestly, if they gave the show a shot, Charlie is very much a Christian character. The show is literally about the idea sinners can be redeemed.
It's funny considering that. In a simple change of premise, you could have an empathetic angel set up a hotel for sinners to redeemed to show Heaven that no soul is truly lost, which if you read certain interpretations of the Bible that one day Jesus himself would come down and release those that have proven to have served their punishment and for their souls to redeemed.
You just reminded me how the story of Jesus one day freeing all the sinners is a literal fanficiton, that Catholics made up later.
To be quite fair, a lot of modern ideas of the bible are fanfiction in one way or another because everyone reads updated/modern translation versions of scripture or just plain don't read it at all.
The idea of having a rehabilitation center in Hell to redeem sinners is actually an interesting concept.
The show had a great premise but as has been said a million times the execution is terrible.
Not sure what exactly you'd need to do to make it appeal to Christians considering the large margin of what some devotes would find acceptable and others heretical. Personally I don't mind the show, and I already know that Viv has a chip on her shoulder against God, which is what makes the show the way it is. In the end trying to make it appeal to all or even some Christians would drastically change so many things I doubt it would be the same show except maybe by some of its premise.
Honestly all the pieces are there just gotta rework it a bit. Like, Adam being a dickhead is not a bad idea, but it is too over the top and the fact most of heaven doesn't mind it destroys a point they could have about all Humans have sin inside of them. Having the focal point of redemption being Angel Dust isn't a bad idea with a broken coked up prostitute, but it is happening way too quickly and isn't as satisfying. This is also not saying anything about what Alastor truly wants with the hotel, which is still up in air quality wise for me depending which direction they go in.
I agree.
The entire plot and its "hopeful" premise was shot down the grave the moment episode one aired. It honestly seems like it's building up into hell goes to war with heaven route, which would be fine on its own but completely sidelines the shows starting setting.
I'm just kinda hoping that when the "war" starts, Charlie realizes that this is not the correct way and tries to get on both Hell's and Heaven's good side to work out a better system.
Yeah the original premise of the pilot is as solid as it could get. The whole "Hell is other people" isn't even that far off from many Christian interpretations of it.
>Not sure what exactly you'd need to do to make it appeal to Christians considering the large margin of what some devotes would find acceptable and others heretical.
I would say just dial back the fedora-tipping and showcase Heaven as antagonistic yet not fundamentally evil (beyond maybe a Very Special Episode where Charlie debates/fights with the exterminators specifically, since there's some parallels to real world genocides in there). Christianity is a religion with a billion fricking people practicing it so what goes and doesn't go is going to vary extremely wildly.
Funnily enough most of the people criticizing this show are actually progressive Christians and culturally Christian atheists, because that's the demographic that's the most willing to give the premise a chance, whereas the puritanical fundies and the weird cultish sects either don't know it's a thing or are actively avoiding it.
Many characters in the show are completely fricked writing-wise because Vivienne and Raph cannot help themselves, especially with the abusive men. Realistically (bear with me) people like Adam and Val would not get away with their abusive tendencies the way they are now, they're so fricking blatant about their childish sadism that there's no fricking way anyone would willingly get close to them (especially in Adam's case), but because the director and the head animator are not subtle about their rape/non-con/abuse fetishes you keep getting these card-carrying villains.
Speaking of Angel, the problem is that the show is way too fricking rushed. I get 8 episodes is a bad deal, but given how big of a hit the show has turned out to be, it was a bad move to try and cram 20 episodes' worth of content into 8 instead of ending S1 on a "cliffhanger" because you know a greenlight is incoming.
Val I get why he is the way he is, typical silver tongue devil who has faustian deals of fame and love in exchange for their body. Adam just confuses me of why anyone would tolerate him.
He seems to be akin to a dumb attack dog considering how dismissive Sera and the court was of him, but this show isn't very good about actually conveying information properly.
>but this show isn't very good about actually conveying information properly.
viv had to really toss out a lot of preestablished logic to hammer in that everyone in hell is secretly good, please understand.
>Adam just confuses me of why anyone would tolerate him.
They tolerate him because Heaven very obviously needs sinners to fight their battles for them
I can see a plot line where exorcists realize they'll be cast out from Heaven once they kill all of Hell
Freaking good picture my sides ahhahahahhah
"Hey Lois remember that time that I hosted that radio show?"
"Petah! You better not get involved with the radio demons again"
"Hey Peter, the boys are going to make a podcast. Wanna join us?"
"Holy shit! Count me in Joe! This is going to be like that time I hosted a radio show"
"Petah please listen to me"
It is called Purgatory.
All I'd do is make the angels genuinely good, make Charlies goal a struggle to save many (from unfortunate victims to people who are so genuinely evil they Challange Charlie's goal) but ultimately sucessful, and have it end with some form of Apocatastasis with questions over universalism, free will, and pride
If the show had gone with the concept of more fallen angels alongside Lucifer and or Satan according to Christian scripture, it would've been interesting if the exterminations of human sinners in hell were committed by them instead for a specific purpose of maintaining easier control over hell's populace and or planning for war against heaven.
Adam himself was just a sinner posing as an angel to manipulate Charlie into thinking she was actually speaking directly to a representative from heaven when she never was, all in an attempt to force her into giving up on redeeming sinners in hell as that would completely frick with everything.
And all of this would be exposed near the end by Charlie when she manages to speak to those in heaven directly and learn the truth.
This would've made Lucifer into an actual antagonistic character though who still has ambitions as the ruler of hell which comes into conflict with his bond with his daughter, Charlie.
The demons are fallen angels who hate humans for existing and want to prove that the damned human souls are irredeemable so God will greenlight the extermination of the damned, which they hope will be the first step in wiping out humanity entirely. The heroes are demons who, like Abraham in Sodom, are frantically trying to redeem souls to prove the damned are salvageable and that the extermination would therefor be unjust. Over time it's revealed that humans were originally supposed to outrank angels and that they could still do so in the future if they get their shit together, and the butthurt over this was what caused the first generation of demons to reject the divine plan fall. The demons deeply resent humans and God but are kind of schizo about it and think of their activities as holy work, generally run their society as a warped and edgy but sincere imitation of the heavenly court with themselves as the aristocracy, and look forward to the day God admits they were right all along and restores them to their positions in heaven.
Is that your prediction or something?
No just an idea for a plotline based on traditional demonology, since in Christian thought demons are mainly motivated by spite over the plans God has for humanity.
>Jesus vs Satan trying to win over a young adult
>Jesus is somewhat boring but calm, while Satan is kind of like Hazbin Lucifer: gaudy, fun, and unimposing
>As series goes on, we start to see Jesus's true personality as a confident, yet merciful king emerge, while Satan's personality is a ruse to draw people in,and he's actually blood thirsty, malicious, and wants nothing more but to corrupt humanity to sin.
God tells Satan "You know, I would have given them the forbidden fruit eventually, LEGALLY. It was a test for both you and them. Guess who's not coming back, and it isn't Adam."
God tells Satan: "You know, all those games with trial and error gameplay with rules not explained to the player? I made all of those."
Keep the original premise that the pilot set up, make it a show about attempting to redeem the people of Hell. Keep Lucifer as the antagonist he was hinted to be. Make the gangwar shit the B plot of the episodes, hint at the Heaven VS Hell thing, but don't have a fricking Heaven embassy in Hell that's stupid.
>Make the show for Christians
Heavily draw from C.S. Lewis' book, 'The Great Divorce' where sinners in Hell are given the opportunity visit Heaven, repent and continue living in Heaven. But almost all of them give way to various excuses, self-deceptions and refuse to repent, choosing instead to continue living in misery in Hell
Here's a better question: why ISN'T there a Hazbin show for Christians?
America's got some filthy rich Jesus Freaks. Why aren't they writing checks and fighting the heathens with their own creative output?
You can't really make things fun/lighthearted when pandering to a christgay audience. Like all cultists they have a stick firmly buried up their buttholes. The best you can hope for is toddler safe shit like Kingdom Chums, or shit that's so bad it becomes funny, like Joshua and the Promised Land.
I think its because most American Xians with the means to make a show are normiecore Used Car Dealership boomers who only know cartoons they watched as very young kids.
The only Xians with that passionate creative spark are sadly demented online Tradcaths who, if given a blank check by some ministry, would make some uberviolent revenge porn Warhammer shit that very few people would find appealing.
>The only Xians with that passionate creative spark are sadly demented online Tradcaths who, if given a blank check by some ministry, would make some uberviolent revenge porn Warhammer shit that very few people would find appealing.
no need to name names
I don't think you can, at least not without breaking the rules of the good book.
Hell and heaven are very much the "finale" of christian lives, you don't really get to discuss it unless you're secretly a heretic. At least not in a way that would be viable to create a cartoon over.
Not curse so much, becasue, how somebody said before, Charlie believe in the christian value of Redemption.
>Keep the original premise from the pilot.
>Have the show be closer and more accurate to scripture, apocrypha, and maybe some Catholic teachings.
>The angels are not evil, and from heaven's eyes, the exterminations are seen as merciful.
>Lucifer and Alastor are villains who try to bring down Charlie and her goal, but in different ways.
>As the show progresses, Charlie learns what it truly means to be redeemed.
>Charlie comes to the realization that many of her people are in hell for a reason, but she doesn't let that stop her.
>At the end, the hotel basically becomes purgatory.
That's just a summary of what I'd do. I think if hazbin really honed in on the second point, it would do a lot more for adult animation in terms of storytelling.