I am new to comics. I understand that DC was publishing some artsy comics in the 80's that are still very highly regarded. I want to get into them. Sandman, Hellblazer, Swamp Thing, Doom Patrol. I've heard good things about all of them.
DC's continuity is very confusing to me, but do all these comics take place within the main DC universe (as it existed at the time)? Do these runs get interrupted by events? And are there any other classics I should add to my list?
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>I understand that DC was publishing some artsy comics in the 80's that are still very highly regarded.
They were. You sound like a pretentious twat, so you'll probably like them. Read Alan Moore's Swamp Thing (everything after that is "your mileage may vary"), all of Hellblazer, Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol (stop when he leaves), Grant Morrison's Animal Man (stop when he leaves), all of Shade the Changing Man (90s series), all of Starman (90s series), all of Sandman, all of Sandman Mystery Theatre (unrelated to Sandman), all of The Spectre (90s series), and... I'm probably forgetting a few. Maybe someone else can help you there.
>DC's continuity is very confusing to me, but do all these comics take place within the main DC universe (as it existed at the time)?
More or less, but they (mostly) ignore it. Shade the Changing Man in particular. Whereas Starman is the opposite and makes HEAVY use of DC's history, to great effect.
>Do these runs get interrupted by events?
No. I think Starman has an issue that's technically a tie-in to an event, but it's literally 100% unrelated.
>And are there any other classics I should add to my list?
What are your criteria?
Thank you for the additional recommendations. I want to check them all out. There's just so much from the history of comic books that I haven't had any experience with, and people speak very highly of the alternative stuff DC was putting out around this time and I just find it very interesting and it's something I want to dig into.
Is there any way you can tell me how or if the old Sandman comics are connected to the "Sandman Universe" DC is publishing now?
>Is there any way you can tell me how or if the old Sandman comics are connected to the "Sandman Universe" DC is publishing now?
Ignore anything DC did after their 2011 reboot. None of it is worth acknowledging.
>Was there a need for this?
Yes. Deal with it.
>Is there any way you can tell me how or if the old Sandman comics are connected to the "Sandman Universe" DC is publishing now?
It's a continuation to Sandman and its spinoffs, but for one it's bad, and for another, it picks and chooses what point from the old books it continues and what it overwrites.
For example, Books of Magic originally was a 4-issue mini, then a bunch of other series. The Sandman Universe BoM book continues from the original mini but deletes everything else.
Hellblazer, instead of picking from where the old book ended, continues from a side plotline from the BoM mini.
And so on.
They're just bad, don't look at them.
I wouldn't worry too much about continuity, especially with DC. The rules of their stories are constantly changing.
"The Sandman Universe" are technically spin-offs and have a weird pseudo-continuity with the main story and with DC. I wouldn't really recommend anything from then besides "Sandman Overtures" and "Sandman Universe: Hellblazer".
Really, none of the 90's Vertigo stuff is really in continuity anymore. Vertigo and Wildstorm were *briefly* brought into continuity with the New 52 initiative in the 2010's but even that got retconned.
That being said, I would still recommend the New 52 run of Lemire's Animal Man and Synder's Swamp Thing. They do have a very bad event between the two of them but they do vaguely continue the story from the 90's in an entertaining manner. Also, try Gerard Way's Doom Patrol. It's a lot more meta but it's a decent run that was plagued by delays.
>You sound like a pretentious twat, so you'll probably like them.
Was there a need for this?
Come on, does anyone with any awareness of the 'net come into Cinemaphile expecting civility?
It's behavior I'd expect from the anti-rec gay, not from someone that offered recommendations.
>Yes. Deal with it.
Nah.
>anti rec gay
Rent free and mind broken.
Protip my dear twitter newfriend, Cinemaphile is the sort of place to punctuate with pessimism and vulgarity. We can call something pretentious dogshit and still enjoy it.
I've been here for over 12 years. You come off like a tryhard newbie, though.
There's a difference between being uncivil and being uninteresting, with the latter being far more of a crime. Cheap shot insults for the sake of it are puerile and boring, and the last 5-10 years speak pretty conclusively to what happens when invectives for the sake of invectives are normalized here.
I don't wanna sound like a c**t and shit on your, american, taste but only good stuff that DC published was under Vertigo brand and rest of their ''mature'' stuff like already mentioned Moore's Swamp Thing
sorry but as someone who never grew up on superhero comics, I found them embarrassing and cringe bar some batman stuff that's praised
call me a c**t or a pretentious c**t but that's the truth
Could you rewrite this in English?
BAM!
WHAM!
POW!
>resorts to unintelligible grunts when angered
Vertigo is fricking trash. You have terrible taste.
No, people who don't like Vertigo got filtered pick up the books, get cozy, and read some kino
>Was there a need for this?
Precision matters in all things. I like high energy stupid shit, so I enjoy the Storytime of Pain series for example.
Anon is far more likely to prefer a cayenne covered buttplug in his ass sort of comic, and succinctly describing it matters.
General advice. Ignore characters and labels, and pay more attention to artists and writers.
That IS civility, in the barbarian tribeslands.
>But I'd take recommendations for anything really.
Here's a few ideas out of the Big 2 range, not specifically tailored.
Usagi Yojimbo. There should be a marathon of the entire decades long run on right now. A cross between comic anthros and Akira Kurosawa.
Transmetropolitan. A cyberpunk hunter S thompson.
Frank Miller: His Martha Washington book.
>out of the Big 2 range
>Transmetropolitan
That's what I get for being a sloppy motherfricker.
Alright 2000 AD. Try the anthology format, and keep track of the people who make good shit. Pretty much every famous bong author wrote for them at some point in their career.
>Ignore characters and labels, and pay more attention to artists and writers.
This is horrible advice.
You a marveldrone?
It's the worst advice ever.
That's great advice.
>I enjoy the Storytime of Pain series
Waste of time.
Swamp Thing has a tie-in to Crisis on Infinite Earths so you may want to read that.
Also check out Vertigo’s Lucifer as well. The one from the early 2000s.
>Swamp Thing has a tie-in to Crisis on Infinite Earths so you may want to read that.
I didn't realize that, but I know that was a major event in comic history so I do want to read that too.
NTA, but I was only going to post to mention that, since you asked in the OP. Hilariously, it is the only major crossover in Moore's Swamp Thing, kind of comes out of left field, but perfectly integrates into the story and then his part of it is almost a "Sacking of the Shire" important post-script to wrap up the event. It's actually hugely important continuity-wise and has some of my favorite plotting/dialogue from any comic ever. I was shocked how much they put importance into it. It's technically part of Swamp Thing and included in most collections, to my knowledge, but was technically an annual issue.
Aside from that, really, just echoing the rest of the thread. Keeping it briefer, since there's been a lot of blocks of text going over it all - start with Swamp Thing, go top to bottom on that. Then go to Hellblazer, read at least until Ennis comes on, and then possibly (or instead) do Sandman. They all link together somehow, and basically anything by Vertigo throughout that period is solid.
Really, if you're just looking for a list, you're mostly covered in this thread. Swamp Thing, Hellblazer, Sandman, Lucifer after that, Books of Magic and Trenchcoat Brigade (A mini, technically, but if you've liked what you've seen up until then you'll like that), Animal Man, Doom Patrol (At least through Morrison, not awful after if you really love it up until then), Shade, Starman, and Sandman Mystery Theater especially. Anything Vertigo, really.
A lot of it comes down to personal taste. I did a really incredibly similar reading a few years back that re-ignighted my love of comics, but then basically stuck to these, adjacent works, and indie stuff after. For instance, I don't know if all 500ish issues of Hellblazer is everyone's jam, but I did it. If you do, the Spurrier run more recently is the best non-Hellblazer thing relating to Constantine, and really relies on it for continuity in a fascinating way.
no one mentioned Preacher, I think it's pretty good
That's only because the OP specifically asked for DC stuff and it's implied that he's talking about the DC Universe.
I definitely appreciate all this. I guess I'll get started on Swamp Thing this week. When I was a teenager I got into classic movies, and I loved this feeling of having a century of masterpieces to go through and discover. But now I've seen a lot of the major classics of film history, and while I'm sure there's still great films I haven't seen yet, there's no more "Oh, you've GOT to see" movies like The Godfather or Casablanca. I've seen almost all of those. So now with comics I'm having that same sort of feeling, where there's so many great runs and I haven't read any of them.
>there's no more "Oh, you've GOT to see" movies like The Godfather or Casablanca
There are. You're just averse to foreign cinema for reasons that you yourself could not explain.
I love foreign movies too. I could've said The 400 Blows and Seven Samurai but I thought just naming the most famous American films would get my point across better to people who aren't as well versed in foreign films.
A lot of my favorite movies are French really. If I were to learn another language I'd want to learn French so I could appreciate The Rules of the Game, one of my most favorite movies, in its native language.
Man, if you think you've got a good grasp of even French movies from watching a handful of the most obvious shit even 13 years olds know about nowadays, I can guarantee you're underestimating how much groundbreaking stuff is out there. It's not 2010 any more, if you haven't watched the major works of:
>jacques rivette, jean epstein, abel gance, raoul ruiz, marguerite duras, eric rohmer, the early philippe garrel, the major french serials (les vampires etc), the late godard movies
Then you're up for a surprise. And that's ONLY must-watch stuff which have hordes of writings about, have inspired countless imitators, etc. Seven Samurai isn't even that major a work in Japanese culture, there's at least a hundred movies Japanese cinephiles would rank above it, some of which are virtually unknown in the west.
Again I was mentioning more mainstream stuff so more people would understand my point. I've seen a lot of the stuff you've mentioned as well.
>Seven Samurai isn't even that major a work in Japanese culture
That's bullshit.
That went longer than expected, but final notes, I'll echo the Question by Dennis O'Neil. It has a great tone and one writer and that helps a fricking lot, got started off that and it's another "Technically DC continuity but in its own little world" thing. If you like it, it may be worth checking out Mike Grell's Green Arrow, which has a brief crossover with that, and is of a separate "For mature readers" line that barely was a flash but separate from Vertigo. Of course it's a cape thing, but is also much more tonally like the rest of this, deals heavily with real social stuff/government bullshit, and is a good read with great art. The Longbow Hunters is generally well regarded specifically, if you're at all interested in something less occult.
Like I said, really all comes down to personal taste. But this is all worth reading and the best I've ever found comics to be.
Final note that'll probably be controversial around here, but depending on your format/buying preference, I'd recommend looking into DC Universe Infinite for this. It's a subscription comic thing and their app/account system is a bit jank, sure, but if you don't want to frick around looking for all of this wherever and hoping it's good scans, 90% of everything mentioned in this thread is on there now immediately accessible and fairly clearly sorted, so it can be worth the $10 a month or however long you take to read it all to save the effort.
Fair enough. I'll also echo Hitman and Preacher, but I focused more on Hellblazer et. al. Really, it was a good era of "star writers" churning out the good shit in a way you don't really see anymore, and if you stick to the names you like it's hard to go fully wrong.
No problem. Not to be too mushy on a basketweaving hate board, but that reminds me a lot of me, I totally get you on that, I've done the same thing and that was my motivation as well, kek. Basically read the Vertigo back catalogue from there, & where that leads.
I might look into DC Infinite. I usually don't like reading comics digitally, but the convenience and money saved might be worth it. Plus older comics probably have fewer two page spreads. That's what I really hate about reading digital comics, having to turn the tablet sideways.
Yeah, I felt the exact same way you did, and for similar reasons, but I read pretty much everything in this thread for around $120 in subscription fees over a protracted time, while tracking it all down and buying it individually would have probably taken much more time and cost well over $1000 and a lot of shelf space. To your specific point, Swamp Thing has a couple great ones, but you are correct that they're used less than these days so it reads smoother vertically, and Infinite does keep them "grouped" so you're not dealing with a seam. Plus, zooming can be nice to really appreciate the little details in some of the art, I liked to take it in.
It's such a shame because I loved Year One to death but holy shit when he's drawing it ain't my jam. Biggest shoulders in the business before Liefeld.
OP, this guy put my point briefer than I did, lol, he knows what's up. Also recommend the Incal, especially if like you said you like French fiction and all. Dip into the Euros with that and see how you like it, it's worth it.
If you're going to read digitally then just pirate.
Grell's Green Arrow has ZERO of the "artsy" vibe that OP seems to be looking for. Now personally, it's one of my favorite comics, but I doubt it's what OP is looking for.
Longbow Hunters comes across as extremely 'art house', on the other hand.
It's the best Grell Green Arrow book.
It's the shittiest take on Black Canary, indisputably. It's not even that great for Ollie. I think Grell's best was the Warlord guest appearance, and the Shado mini. The rest is sort of forgettable (if enjoyable), outside of Longbow Hunters shock value.
I can definitely get into that. I'm not exclusively interested in that kind of thing. That was just what I'm interested in learning about right now, but anything really good that I haven't read yet is worth learning about. I don't know much about Green Arrow, but if you say it's one of your favorites then that's high praise.
It's manly action-adventure stuff. Great series, but dramatically different from anything else recommended in this thread.
Hitman is my personal favorite comic, but it's not exactly "artsy" like OP was asking for. It's actual quite vulgar in an unapologetically juvenile/low-brow way.
I would strongly advise against reading Doom Patrol after Morrison leaves. I know it's a while until Byrne shows up and (intentionally) ruins it, but it's probably best to leave after Morrison so you have some kind of "ending" (even if not really lol).
The Rachel Pollack run was actually quite enjoyable, though an absolutely different flavour than Morrison.
Why the frick would you read the crisis, if you didn't read what came before it, and aren't going to follow the characters after it.
Crises are trash stories, used to justify the editors and writers having new freedom to write whatever they want and chase speculator sales bumps.
The idea of reading a crisis, for the sake of reading a crisis, that's going to be a big bag of disappointment.
Frick you, Final Crisis was the shit!
Yeah, but it has nothing to do with it, dumbass. NEVER recommend events to someone. That is the worst possible advice you can give.
It really doesn't have anything to do with the Crisis on Infinite Earths itself, so you can ignore that. Just read the series. Although, as far as "events" go, Crisis on Infinite Earths is generally regarded as the best of them all (aside from maybe Blackest Night, depending on who you ask), so if you're determined to read an event then that's probably the best place to start.
>and... I'm probably forgetting a few. Maybe someone else can help you there.
I'll add The Books of Magic and Lucifer to that.
Books of Magic is a 4-issue mini by Gaiman, then there's a crossover with various other Vertigo books (The Children's Crusade), then a 75-issue series. Those are pretty good. There's continuations and a couple reboots after that point, but they're bad.
Lucifer spins off of Vol 3 of Sandman, with a couple minis and then a 75-issue series, all of them by Mike Carey. It's really great. There's also reboots later, I hear they're not good.
I'll also say I've heard Black Orchid by Gaiman is good, but I haven't read it.
And on the same note as the previous books, the recommendation for Hellblazer should be limited to the original series and its contemporary minis and so on. Reboots of the book and the character and his inclusion in mainstream DC books are bad and should be ignored.
>Grant Morrison's Animal Man (stop when he leaves)
Don't do this, read the following story by Peter Milligan and stop there.
The Tom Veitch run after that is also damn good. Delano's run is where it goes off the rails.
Only a pretentious twat would recommend Shade.
Or a troon.
OP seems to be looking for comics like that, for better or worse.
Ignore some of the advice you are given here. You can read Hellblazer on it's own well into the series (it went to something like 300+) and if there's something that confuses you, it will be a minor reference, and you can just to an on-line Wikia if you are really that curious. Swamp Thing does interact a tiny bit more but again, same thing. The Vertigo Doom Patrol is it's own thing, but it also has a history before this that probably will not interest you.
You can ignore these suggestions
>Animal Man (stop when he leaves), all of Shade the Changing Man (90s series), all of Starman (90s series),
>all of The Spectre (90s series)
And not worry about continuity at all. Once you get through the above, which should take you anywhere from a few months to a few years, you can decide if you want to dig into more, but unless you're doing nothing else but reading comics, Sandman alone is about 10 trade paperbacks unless you want to spend money on the four omnibus collections (which is still some 80 or so comic books plus other stuff).
This poster is a homosexual.
I prefer post-Morrison Animal Man
Jeff Lemire's run was great.
The rule of thumb with N52 is that the less-capey stuff was handled well and the cape stuff was handled poorly. Swamp Thing wasn't too bad either.
Swamp Thing, Animal Man, and Demon Knights I remember being really good. Everything else I think was pretty bad, except for the books that were largely untouched by the reboot (GL, some of the Batman books). Also, controversially, Azzarello's Wonder Woman was neat and good and solid. A great chance to give WW a proper direction and brand personality, but it didn't stick, I guess in part because she didn't mesh with the WW from the JL books.
Aquaman and Captain Atom were alright
I won't say it was bad, but Aquaman just didn't grab me.
Captain Atom was interesting yeah. Frankenstein and the Agents of Shade was decent too, and now that I think of it, Flash was good. Batwoman was pretty much a continuation of pre-flashpoint 'Tec I think, and it was good, or at least pretty with the JH Williams III art.
But that's about it as far as I can remember.
Dial H, Phantom Stranger and Larfleeze were excellent. Justice League 3000 and Martian Manhunter were also very good, and also the first year or so of Batwing was very solid. And I liked OMAC.
It was phoned-in work-for-hire, nothing more.
Snyder's Swamp Thing is the hackiest shit it's ever been.
You are the first person that ever said that.
false
If you want more Sandman, read Lucifer. I personally hated it because I prefer Gaiman's tragic interpretation of Lucifer over Carey's more accurate interpretation. Also, the Lucifer run is very slow imho. It takes a very long time to get to its main premise.
Lucifer have top-tier visual look of Presence a.k.a. God, not to mention several cool shots of the Angeltown and other various architectural things, if anything. Of cource, all of this have nothing to do with your complaint.
How about Lucifer fricking away into nothingness after refusing Presense's offer on making Bro Fusion in the very end?
Loved Lucifer and hate what the later reboots did. At least the last one was kind of okay.
I'd say Rick Veitch's Swamp Thing is almost as good as Moore's.
Frickers should have let him finish. Gaiman was supposed to follow-up, but he nope'd after how they treated Veitch.
It's not even good, saying it's just as good as the Moore run is downright moronic.
'Almost as Good' anon.
Veitch was following up God-tier work and did a great job with it.
Do NOT get into DC comics. For your own sake, avoid those horrible ass stories.
Name ONE DC story.
Star Hunters
Spanner’s Galaxy
Claw the unconquered
I'm gonna read all of these, just to ask Claw from 1975, or Claw from 2006?
1975. The 2006 series is wtf.
Name one thing Marvel has made as good as if not better than Watchmen.
Miracleman.
Made, not reprinted. Unless you like the Gaiman issues that much.
Marvel is terrible too.
Who the frick said anything about Marvel?
Its your typical DC|UCK
>what about muhvel
Is OP even still fricking here? Or have you gays hijacked the thread?
I am still here and I definitely do want to check all these comics out.
Thank you for this, I will take this into account. I actually did on a whim get the Alan Moore Swamp Thing collection. It's the only one of them I've bought. I haven't dug in yet, but I guess I'll start with it and then I'll check out Hellblazer and Sandman. I'll add Lucifer to the list too.
Read these:
Seconded. Good reads. Star Hunters and Claw the Unconquered share continuity, though, so that probably frightens OP.
This:
is a troll.
OP, what else are you interested in? And what do you NOT want?
I don't know if anything I specifically don't want. I'm just new to comics and there's so much throughout comic history to explore. And I know about classic runs like Frank Miller's Daredevil and Peter David's Hulk and all that, and I want to read that too, but the little bits and pieces I've seen about the more alternative corner of DC is really interesting to me right now.
But I'd take recommendations for anything really.
You're making a mistake. Turn back, there's a reason why there's a huge drop off in interest.
Marvel doesn't really start to drop in quality until the early 90s. DC doesn't REALLY turn to total shit until the New 52.
Here's a list of stuff that I think you might like:
The Invisibles: Definitely fits the "artsy" bill in a big way, but unrelated to the DC Universe in any way.
Kingdom Come: Out-of-continuity "alternate future" story about aging DC superheroes who come out of retirement to fight a younger generation of superpowered maniacs. Pretty much the definition of a "superhero epic".
The Dark Knight Returns: Out-of-continuity "alternate future" story about an elderly Batman coming out of retirement to fight a gang that has taken over Gotham City. If Kingdom Come is an "epic" then this is the high point of "superheroes as grand opera".
Batman Year One: In-continuity story that expands on Batman's origin. VERY highly regarded to the point where some consider it the high point of DC Comics.
Catwoman - Her Sister's Keeper: ONLY READ THIS *AFTER* FINISHING BATMAN YEAR ONE. In a nutshell: It's a retelling of Batman Year One from Catwoman's perspective. So obviously it contains massive spoilers for that story.
The Question (80s series): The most philosophical superhero comic you will ever read (though not particularly "artsy" per se). Even if that sounds moronic, it's still just pretty cool in general. Takes place in the DC Universe, but has basically nothing to do with anything else in that setting.
Do you want Marvel recommendations? Or other companies/genres?
>The most philosophical superhero comic you will ever read (though not particularly "artsy" per se)
Come on, now.
How is that wrong?
The amount of actual philosophy in The Question is pretty limited. Vic reads a lot of philosophy and makes offhand references/namedrops to it but there is not much in the run that actually brings up philosophical musings.
Just from the list in that same post, Kingdom Come has more ethical/philosophical quandaries that are actually presented as ambiguous and ask the reader to think about things. Off the top of my head, I think that Watchmen is probably the comic that most asks the reader to form their own political/philosophical/ethical opinions based on some priming from the comic.
Thank you. I have read Dark Knight Returns, and I have read a little bit of The Question and I've enjoyed that too. Batman Year One and Kingdom Come are two that I've heard of and I plan to read. I'll look at the rest of these too. Thank you.
Well Satan, if you’re looking for moody but still fun fantasy, Sandman is going to be the bread and butter. You already have Swamp Thing, that’s probably going to be the prettiest writing, most “artsy” one on your list. The Hellblazer/Lucifer stuff is lot more classically occult. Don’t expect Dr. Strange magic where he’s shooting fire out his ass or whatever. Constantine does shit like divination and summoning circles and stuff like that. It’s usually more about his wits than crazy magical power.
I’d read swamp thing before Hellblazer since that’s where John Constantine is introduced
Same with reading Sandman before Lucifer
Oh also read Lucifer, it’s great
You don’t HAVE to do it that way but you’ll get the full effect if you end up reading through each pair of series.
Moore Swamp Thing is the only one of those I like.
After the initial popularity of some of those darker edgier runs DC made a brand called Vertigo which corralled all those moody, meandering, introspective titles into a separate imprint with The Sandman as its core. Most of the series are considered part of the Main DC Universe (Transmetropolitan is a edgy classic but its not part of the DC continuity) but the Main Vertigo series are basically a sub-continuity.
If you like Sandman its basically the Sandman Extended Universe
A one I recently have finished reading is the Pre-52 Books of Magic continuity of which I will now shill.
The First Volume is a short 4 issue run starring Tim Hunter as 4 DC magic users approach and inform him that he is destined to be the greatest Wizard of that age and it is their duty to teach him. The book serve less as an actual narrative and more as a solid overview of the Magic side of DC in a holistic sense.
The Second Volume is a 75 issue run in which Tim Hunter, apathetic, immature 12 year old, has to deal with his role as the Greatest Magician of his age as random magical bullshit and the spunky Irish neighbor girl who wants to jump his bones, comes out of the woodwork to drag him into bullshit magic adventures. Until about 30 issue in when he starts taking initiative for himself.
Stop here
Name of Magic+Hunter the age of Magic is the follow up to Books of magic Volume 2.
The best way I can describe it is like a early 2000s Buffy ripoff that was told it was going to be canceled in its second season, wrapped everything up, then got renewed for a third season. Except your not watching the show proper but instead following some random "plot important episodes only" guide.
Then we get Books of Magick: Life During Wartime which is best described as what someone who has never actually read Hellblazer think Hellblazer is. The only interesting this is the 16 year old lesbian Alt-Universe Constantine who's there for like 5 issues.
Then it got 52'd
>The book serve less as an actual narrative and more as a solid overview of the Magic side of DC in a holistic sense.
That sounds pretty interesting. I like the world building, and while I know people get tired of all the crossover events, the shared universe aspect is a huge part of what draws me to Marvel and DC, just diving into this whole world where all this stuff interconnects. I haven't heard of this series but you made me want to check it out.
I would definitely recommend the first Volume as a nice primer and at least check out the covers for Volume 2, there is some great and wild art.
>After the initial popularity of some of those darker edgier runs DC made a brand called Vertigo which corralled all those moody, meandering, introspective titles into a separate imprint with The Sandman as its core. Most of the series are considered part of the Main DC Universe (Transmetropolitan is a edgy classic but its not part of the DC continuity) but the Main Vertigo series are basically a sub-continuity.
>If you like Sandman its basically the Sandman Extended Universe
I honest to God think that every story minus Sandman got worse after moving to Vertigo. Hellblazer, Swamp Thing, Animal Man, and Doom Patrol were great because they worked in the stricter confines of DC meaning they had to get creative and think outside the box.
I'm surprised other people have read Hunter and Wartime. I honestly found it surprising that I even read through them. Life During Wartime especially was just weird.
They weren't good and if it wasn't for the momentum I had coming off of Volume 2, how short they were comparatively, and that they were on my reading list I would of stopped.
I honesty think the setup for Hunter is decent and you could make a good Series out of it. Nothing on the level as BoM but I liked the first few seasons of Buffy and would of been down with what we got again if it was better paced and had better writing. It would also be better wasn't tied to Books of Magic but I digress.
Wartime's only benefits were again 16 year old lesbian Constantine as a fun idea. And once the actual story happens their are some concepts which feel properly Vertigo. But having Tim become Constantine 2 ultra magic boogaloo means we have a story where the main characters are three (badly written) Constantine's and a edgy Zatanna, that just fricks about for most of the run is not very good.
I forget if Lyta Hall is still the daughter of Wonder Woman and Steven Trevor from Earth-2 or has been Huntressized already via Infinity Inc. but she was super powered used goods by the time Neil Gaiman used for Sandman. So she's the link to DC for a major character but she was used specifically because she wouldn't be integral to anything important. But other than that, a lot of the Vertigo books are their own thing.
Check out Jonah Hex: Two Gun Mojo but you don't have to check out Riders of the Worm and Such unless you want to the a cool mini get Flanderized.
If you're super new to comics, check out The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen for two different but valid views on vigilantes.
Make sure you read From Hell. What's wild is when Moore and Campbell start releasing it, it starts beating Sandman for the Eisner. And Sandman is magnificent so what does that say of From Hell?
>Don't watch the movie. For the love of Christ, don't watch the movie
And even though it's capeshit, read All-Star Superman, Superman: Red Son, and Superman for All Seasons.
>With so much darkness, you could use some light in there. It can't all be gritty, sexually charged, and violent, that lead to the 90s
I doubt OP wants All Star Superman.
I do like Superman. I picked up Byrne's Man of Steel but I haven't read it yet. Thank you for the Superman recommendations.
Byrne is eh. If you can, pick up the George Perez material directly following Byrne, including Superman's self-exile into space. Some good, weighty and underrated stuff.
>George Perez
You're thinking of someone else.
No, Perez took over on Action Comics after Byrne left. I'm specifically remembering Action Comics Annual #2, written and drawn by Perez.
I would suggest mostly avoiding capeshit since they are the mcdonalds of western comics. Some pretty good reccs itt. You should 100% try everything written by Alan Moore. Also stop reading Hellblazer when it gets boring for you.
You're a homosexual.
Go back to reading "good guy punches bad guy" number 2376234238463 you fricking addict.
You’re a fricking moron. Capeshit comics are some of the worst pieces of fiction to exist. Bottom of the barrel garbage.
You are moronic.
You sound extra moronic.
beats the hell out of alan moore any day
NTA but I group the two together.
Alan Moore is the God of Cape Comics. His detractors resent that fact, and so does he.
As other anons have mentioned, Sandman & Co are a kind of a parallel world, that has some DC guys like Superman and events running in background. Basically, if you want core plot, you read Sandman and Lucifer. I would recommend before that to read The Demon Vol. 3 (yes, this specifically) and Hitman (both are mostly done by Garth Ennis iirc, both are fun enough and both give some premise on Hell, which features heavily in Sandmanverse).
In general, despite all attempts of companies and various authors to create a kind of united DC continuity, because there are too many authors, executives and other gays, each with his own visions and canons, i heavily recommend to stick to a certain authors/runs/artists (depending on what you would value more at that specific point of your life) and read either only things that had catched your eye/ear/imagination or this things and some related by author/run/artist materials. This way you'll end up with many more or less standalone integral things, that just happen to have some references to each other, which you'll either catch eventually or will read on wiki. In the end you'll either will read enough things to construct a greater loosely connected picture in your head or will end up reading only more or less quality materials, which will help you to spend your time being more entertained than attempts to connect seemingly connected, but actually barely tied together attempt at something great. For more or less fully connected epic just read a certain web-comics about being stuck at home. Granted, it also jave its own shenanigans and you'll have to download a certaim app and a backup archive with data.
I grew up reading Euro comics before getting into DC as a late teen after the New 52.
Having read all the must-read capeshit from yesteryear and the modern day; my take is some of it is great, a lot of it is garbage, but most of it is just unambitious and uninteresting slop written and drawn by people who would be working in any other creative industry if they had the talent to do so.
The only appeal to reading modern DC/Marvel is that, if you really like a character, everyone now and then you may see them have a good moment or two.
But there's no point to following it monthly and reading every new issue, as the moments are rarely worth it and the handful that are will inevitably be reposted because great moments are so few and far between.
>tl;dr
Read indie shit or things by writers/artists you like.
Do not become a charactergay after you're done reading "the classics" (note: some of the classics are shit, like most Frank Miller and Grant Morrison comics).
Do check out some of the study of comics stuff like Understanding Comics and a couple books by Will Eisner.
Take the manga pill.
I had a similar initiation (I read Euro comics and manga before I really got into superheroes). Everything you said is correct, except for this:
>some of the classics are shit, like most Frank Miller and Grant Morrison comics
Everything by Frank Miller from the 80s and 90s is good reading, and at least half of Morrison's stuff is worth reading.
I was being slightly facetious by calling it shit.
I suppose my point was more "don't feel like you have to like all the classics", because everything is a matter of taste and it's ok to find things bad even if seemingly everyone else thinks they're great.
Personally, Frank Miller's art doesn't do it for me and Grant Morrison's writing can be really pretentious at times but I still enjoyed Batman: Year One and All-Star Superman.
>Frank Miller's art doesn't do it for me
same, I just can't stomach his are in Dark Knight series despite the great script and overall a classic
to OP - keeping it very short - everything Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman and Grant Morrison like many suggested. Those 3 are superstars. After that you go for similar authors
there's an alternate route - try european comics like The Incal (and all other stuff from that world)
>everything Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman and Grant Morrison
ugh. I don't think even OP wants that. they are all inconsistent AT BEST.
If you consider those inconsistent I wonder who you consider consistent.
That guy comes into every thread to b***h about good comics.
You have shit taste.
In the 80s and 90s there was a lot more free expression starting to happen due to self publishing and new publishers entering the field along with less regulation with B characters.. The 90s had the most expressive comics with almost everyone being an anti-hero. But it couldn't last since the Comic's industry was changed and shaped by Superman's Death and Rebirth, where anybody can be revived and many things lost it's meaning for many people, since they knew they could be revived easily. So anything with a B tier character around this time has a lot more creative freedom.
With marvel, anything more space/cosmic involved like Adam Warlock is pretty artsy. DC has a lot more to do with mysticism overall from what I can tell, but I don't know everything.
Your knowledge of comics history seems just slightly off.
DC writers just don't know DC lore. I remember Death Metal ended with them introducing some random alien that seemed to have the exact same role as Destiny of the Endless (even has the big book documenting the future) just because the writer apparently didn't know the character already existed.
That's why there's like 3 entities that are supposed to be THE personification of death according to their original narratives, and fans have to fill In the gaps, cause the Captain Atom comic that tries to straighten that out is apparently non-canon.
On that note, whatever happened with the stuff about Killer Frost possibly being an Endless? Did they drop it entirely?
That's post-New 52, dude. The DC Universe, for all intents and purposes, ended when the New 52 happened.
Other than the authors that were already recced I would suggest looking through indie, european comics and manga. You have some beginner suggestions here >https://comraderecs.tumblr.com/post/17325346254/general-comic-recommendations
I've only read The Treasure Hunters. It's cool.
Speaking of "manga", I haven't seen pic rel discussed much here but I thought it was pretty rad.
Interesting.
Just read the stuff in the Vertigo imprint. That's what you're looking for.
Why didn't Marvel ever do weird, cool shit like Vertigo?
Because Marvel is a shit publisher that hates creativity. And I'm not bantering or trying to be mean, they're just allergic to good writing.
They did, Epic.
Why haven't I heard of any of that stuff?
You didn't lurk enough.
They either reprinted manga/euro comics that you associate differently, their comics went out of print and weren't reprinted or they were reprinted by different publishers
More like Epic fail lmao.
They were never really "artsy" though.
Weren't they the original publisher of Moonshadow?
in america, everything that isn't a capeshit is ''weird''
it's actually sad
Most of Vertigo was superheroes though.
Because it didn't sell. And there was nothing "cool" about it. It was fricking nerd shit.
For the most part, the Vertigo comics you're talking about are canon. However, Hellblazer isn't -- but there ARE similarities to the canon John Constantine's history. The main difference is that Vertigo John ages while DC John doesn't.
That being said, DC's continuity is so fricking schizophrenic I'd just try treating each book as a standalone thing.
>Hellblazer isn't
Are you SURE about that?
It started canon, but at some point it diverged. It was always considered "a long bus ride away from mainstream DC", but by the end, John was old and scarred, and the book ended with John sort of getting magically retconned into a mundane life where he was just a shitty old man in a pub, but then he showed up young, unscarred, and throwing flashy spells around in mainstream DC around the time of Brightest day.
The way he was integrated back into DC is just incompatible with Hellblazer, and that's not even considering the Nu52 and later Rebirth stuff, which reset him (and other characters like Tim Hunter) again.
That said, the current book tries to tie back to Hellblazer continuity, despite contradicting it earlier in various ways (and again, also in relation with Tim Hunter).
DC continuity is a mess now (but then, when wasn't it?), and more so regarding the Sandman corner of things.
>spoiler
I have thought, that he was transported into that bar as a kind of a spirit, as even bar's name is "The Long Way's End" or something of a similar fashion. That is not to mention that with his scared face and general theme of "WTF is going on" wrighters and artists just might've wanted to pull literal "WTF" ending with a potential for a sequel in form of a cliffhanger, but still passable for an ending of such a type of comics without adding any specific meaning like "it was actually hell/heaven/limbo/patallel universe/Space Dandy tier multiverse quantum hopping/backup body/random magical trap of a random mage or demon or whoever" etc.
Yeah it was a weird end.
And I have to say, though I generally like Spurrier's work, I don't like his Hellblazer.
I hate that it does this bait and switch about the end of the original Hellblazer: The protagonist John of the book is actually the John that's seen dying in the Evil Tim Hunter alternate future from the original Books of Magic, transported into the present; and he's being messed with by an old John, who one would assume is the old John from the end of Hellblazer. He's not, he's just a fricking tulpa the protagonist John created.
So neither of them is actually the real John from the original Hellblazer book, even though it's supposed to be the same continuity, as shown by it featuring Clarice and mentioning Map.
Spurrier's Damn Them All is a better sequel to OG Hellblazer than his own Hellblazer. Just change the characters' names in your head. How fricked is that?
So it is all Zur-En-Arrh again? Not exactly unexpected.
At least, that was how I read it. That was before I read Books of Magic and may have missed a reference there, but the Protagonist John definitely isn't the original, and almost definitely a tulpa, which was a fascinating twist. But I think the specific reference to the design and timing of the "old" John shows an intention there. But like I said, it's been a while since I read that, and was frankly at the end of all 500ish issues of Hellblazer, every Constantine mini between them out of curiosity, and one issue of the New 52 series before I realized how much worse they fricked it up than people even give it credit for. So by the time I got to Spurrier, I loved how it was clearly the same continuity, and a total love letter to something I'd just fallen in love with and hit the end of. Big fricking play for him to have written that.
Honestly, one of the best comics from the past ten years I'd read, by my measure, but that only says so much. Was super pissed when I found out it got Covid canceled. That all being said, I haven't gotten around to Dead in America yet, so it may have elucidated something about all this I misunderstood at the time.
>Shitty Canary
I'll give that, very human take and well enough written, very well drawn, but way too trauma-clichéd and they really gained little by the contrived ways they avoided her powers. Loved their relationship, though.
>Warlord
I'd never heard of it before that issue, was so confused but intrigued. Then I found the first few issues of it and started reading it; was shocked how much I liked it. Grade A schlock, right there.
>Shado
Good but also wonky on what it almost did for continuity. But goddamn I hate how she just disappeared after that, and that they never used her again properly. I liked the drug smuggling for a congressman story, I remember plenty. Best GA ever was.
And on the subject of the rest of my post, the brief and awesome John cameo, kek.
Okay, actually, frick, this is a fascinating conversation and one I've wanted to have a while, but has somehow never come up on this board. That's not how I read it.
One of the most incredible, mind-blowing things to me about Hellblazer is that it was done in effectively real time. They had some of the anniversary issues actually be birthday issues, they brought up current political developments, new tech, etc., and that fit the tone of it all very interestingly and very well. Very unique, considering how allergic the rest of continuity is to time passing realistically like that, and some "status quo" is to be expected what with everyone around him constantly dying and him getting back on his bullshit, inevitably.
However, there is a strong theme nearer to the end of either blazing out, or aging out into a miserable husk of a man who doesn't barely remember himself. I recall this specifically where he was talking to one of the other "magicians"/hunters/etc. that he went to for some elder's wisdom. That was a growing theme but that was one of the big examples, and if I recall, showed John's idea of what that would be. As we got closer and closer to the end, age took its hold, and he wanted to go down with the new OC girl. He did finally get to "retire", and then... the last pages are all about that. He wasn't magically teleported, he wasn't cursed. It was a callback to that issue. It was his best bad end. And shit it worked for me.
Forward to Spurrier, and I really respected it when the villain showed himself and it was clearly that John. The timeline fit, he was like a twisted version of his old radical self, and it was something to behold. I got the tulpa bit, but I distinctly remember you having it backwards - that was straight up the old John, and the younger is the tulpa. That's why he has no pulse, the weird anachronisms with his style/memories, etc. The real John died a villain.
>I got the tulpa bit, but I distinctly remember you having it backwards - that was straight up the old John, and the younger is the tulpa. That's why he has no pulse, the weird anachronisms with his style/memories, etc. The real John died a villain.[/spoiler]
My brother, YOU have it backwards. Spelled out in this picture, but for more detail:
In Books of Magic, Mister E shows Tim a potential future where he's leading the forces of evil in the Last Magic War of the era. There, they see a dying John who curses Tim for what he has done, or will do. Then they keep going into the future and leave this John to die.
Spurrier's book then takes off from there. After they leave, and with so much magic surrounding him, this John (let's call him BoMJohn) creates a tulpa of himself, a version of him who made it to old age triumphantly. TulpaJohn then makes a deal with BoMJohn: he'll save his life and send him to the "present" where he can live for a time, but eventually he has to give him his soul, so TulpaJohn can be complete. They do that, and BoMJohn ends up in the present Sandman Universe part of DC.
This present seemingly has no John, or he's never seen (after the end of Hellblazer in 2013, he was left a magicless old man and with the pseudo-real time thing, he's probably decrepit or dead now*) and BoMHJohn takes his place. Eventually TulpaJohn comes to collect and BoMJohn tricks him and destroys him.
BoMJohn has no pulse now because the gambit involved killing himself, and he's only "reanimated" but not alive now.
*IF this is the original Hellblazer timeline, which it might be because Clarice is there; but it might not be, since the old BoM ongoing crossed over with Hellblazer a bunch of times, but this timeline ignores everything after the original BoM mini, even the time disparity, and resets Tim entirely.
Related Question
Is the Evil Tim timeline the same of as the Sir Timothy Hunter Timeline, the one with Barbatos and all that. Because if so then that was an actual pocket realty BoM John escaped from and would make him a weird magic construct
I'm not sure. His very first appearance references the war, but I think, mechanically, it shouldn't be. Mister E took Tim to a possible future, but Sir Tim (was he also called Mr. Wrong? I don't remember, I read this so long ago) is from one of Tim's pocket universes, like you say. I don't think they're the same thing, or that Mister E could go into one of those universes, since he only deals in "walking through time".
But for sure they're similar. Maybe the pocket universe itself was created by Tim witnessing the alternate future (we know he creates unintentionally, by just thinking about things), but that still wouldn't make BoMJohn one of Tim's creations: he'd still be a refugee from the alternate timeline.
Far be it from me to take away anyone's enjoyment of anything, so by all means I'm glad you liked it but
>I will say again, I truly do love how it references those little bits and pieces, reconciles all that and "respects" the canon of such a long running series
I do NOT see this respect.
I think it's more because of editorial mandate that the various series reset to a certain point rather than continue from their "ending" (at least BoM did by resetting to after the Gaiman Mini and removing the ongoing and the sequels; I haven't read Lucifer so I don't know), but I find no reconciliation or respect.
The bait and switch with Old John shows that, yeah, Spurrier knew where Hellblazer ended, but chose to use that to trick us and then pull out a completely unrelated twist, which leaves us with TWO fake Johns, and our John, the real one, is nowhere.
And that's without even thinking of how this all meshes with the John that's faffing about with the Justice League. Or is the Sandman Universe stuff separate from normal DC?
I'll reiterate tho:
Read Damn Them All. It's also by Spurrier, and a better sequel to Hellblazer than his Hellblazer.
Just think Alfie is John and Ellie is Gemma.
Got it, also if you want a quick refresher on all the Mr.Wrong stuff
Mr.Wrong was originally presented as a potential future Tim who sold his memories to demons for power and traveled back in time to try and ensure Tim would become him. He then went about his arc eventually dying in hell with Barbatos trapped in the storybook
The hell this takes place in is the future Mr.Wrong timeline hell
Then later on as The Other approaches the plan to defeat him is to let him think he has won, assert himself as Tim and let him lead into the Mr.Wrong timeline which will end with him being killed
Then the real Tim takes imitative making a deal with Barbatos to get his power back and defeat The Other in return for a memory. Seemingly making it so that the complete version of Tim becomes Mr.Wong anyway.
Then the final twist is that Tim actually made a new dimension with his opener powers, hid his soul in the memory and was dormant inside Barbatos for 40 years while leaving his now Soulless Body to become Mr.Wrong in the new dimension, before awakening, possessing Barbatos while tricking him back to the night it all went down before destroying Barbatos completely via remaking his body from the demon's flesh
Ahh, shit, you're 100% right. I was missing a big chunk there. Ironically, legitimately, it was because I ended up reading that before BoM, and hadn't gone back since. That's clearly 100% what that is now that I recognize the events, and clearly what happened. I will say again, I truly do love how it references those little bits and pieces, reconciles all that and "respects" the canon of such a long running series. Good on them for actually knowing their shit to reference that.
Not sure how to feel about the implications of that, though. I really loved the idea of an idealized thoughtform conception of John taking his own place and doing real Hellblazer shit in lieu of the old one going down bad. There was something very meta I loved about that, which is why I probably interpreted it that way at the time. Now having read BoM and recognizing what it did, I don't love a timewarp alt-universe trick near as much. And that's a hell of a bait-and-switch using the "Old John" design for that. Still, big ups for them having clearly read enough fricking Hellblazer et. al. to even use that as a solution to "New series, same continuity, young John" and pull it off, considering most writers would just shrug and barely seem to know what they're writing about these days.
I totally read that page back then as just a weird formless magic-scene and the comment by the Tulpa as a cheeky way to bring the new John about, kek. That's what I get for reading those out of order. I think the intent is clearly to be Hellblazer timeline, considering the tone of everything, the earlier reference to his original costumes and 'adventures', and how deeply and repeatedly it referenced the history there, including Clarice. The problem is I feel like Spurrier seems to give more of a shit about that than editorial does about anything, so I'll just take the W and enjoy it.
Really need to get to Dead in America and see what the frick happens now. Glad they got to do it.
you do not have to worry about continuity
Sandman is good, and so are other sandman related stories which i highly recommend
Lucifer by Mike Carey is a spinoff of Sandman and i highly recommend it
Swamp-Thing as it was written by Alan Moore was good
the Black Orchid miniseries was also good
just saw that another anon recommended Books of Magic. i enjoyed it
You know I never liked how badly Morrison's multiverse essentially overwrote the Sandman cosmology. I much prefer the Endless conceptually to the monitors.
When has Morrison's career not been stealing from and/or debasing the other better work?
I honestly can't think of a single positive influence he's had on any of the comics he's had runs on. It feels like they all go to shit once he leaves. He has a real talent for destroying a good status quo.
Y'know, I don't think it did. The Monitors were never stand-ins to the Endless, and Morrison incorporated Sandman into both his work and the multiverse map. This even continued in the Metal series, which expanded upon that base.
I understand that they coexist technically, but on a meta level I feel like it diminishes the status of the Endless or Lucifer. They were a complete mythos by themselves and incorporating it into his multiverse makes them feel less important if that makes any sense. I've never really liked how meta Morrison's multiverse is either. Sandmen was meta too at times, but it was a lot more subtle.
Most of DC's IP's are complete mythos on their own. It's the nature of bringing everything together, but some toys having restrictions limits their representation. Blame Gaiman for that.
>Most of DC's IP's are complete mythos on their own.
That's fair. This might just be sour grapes on my part since I kind of hate the idea of the Monitors being stand-ins for the writers.
In the same way the treatment of the contemporary Greek Gods in Vertigo trivializes a good portion of the Wonder Women mythos.
I don't see how that's the case. I'm not overly familiar with Wondie lore so correct me if I'm wrong, but the greek gods were never treated as some nigh-omnipotent beings. They aren't even the only gods in the setting.
True but there is a difference between not being the only game in town and Zeus being reduced to a truck driver due to a lack of faithful.
>Zeus being reduced to a truck driver due to a lack of faithful.
I don't remember that. When did that happen?
Books of Magic
Late on in the series The Wild Hunt gets released from their captivity and their is a gathering of representatives to sort it out. Zeus is one of them but because of the lack of worship he has been reduced to a truck driver and likewise Hephaestus is a gas station car maintenance guy in Nova Scotia.
SameBITCH...
Hi
>DC's continuity is very confusing to me, but do all these comics take place within the main DC universe (as it existed at the time)? Do these runs get interrupted by events?
yes and no.
Sandman and the Endless is the de facto DC cosmology top dogs, DC will use them like Marvel uses the space guys to denote something important is happening, but it wont interrupt you're reading of the actual Sandman comic until a Metamorpho shows up
If you want some Comics, try Cerebus. It's deeply influential. If you don't want to read 300 issues of it, just read from High Society up to Minds. That's really the meat of Cerebus. You can skip Guys onward because it gets bad.
I'd also recommend Bone, Persepolis, Maus, and Anya's Ghost. These are technically for young readers but they're very good.
If you want something more adult try to the works of Adrian Tomine, Joe Sacco, Chris Wares, Jaime Hernandez, and Daniel Clowes, Charles Burns. These are all indie creators ranging from war journalism to grounded realistic stories to abstract visual storytelling.
Persepolis and Anya's Ghost are trash.
Maus isn't for young readers
I raise you
Are you intentionally posting Cooke's relaunch or are you recommending Eisner's original comics?
In either case, I think that O'Neil's Question is a better recommendation. Obviously Eisner was a genius and he did some sweet stuff with page layouts (ESPECIALLY for the time) but at the end of the day, most Spirit stories are pretty straightforward pulps. This is also true of Cooke's stuff.
The Spirit is wildly entertaining so it is a solid recommendation, but I wouldn't put it above Question.
The Question's not that good either.
I got reminded of it from the Question. Haven't read either of them in a while but I remember liking them.
I have the Vol 1 omnibus, might get to reading it soon.
Don’t trust anyone in this thread.
All the comics are bad and not worth the attention.
But anon I already read all of the recs. Why didn't you save me earlier?
Was having a goon sesh
t. Liar larping as OP
You're a regular Einstein
>DC's continuity is very confusing to me
No one understands DC continuity anymore. Anyone who says they do is lying. It’s unfathomable. You should just try to ignore it.
>I am new to comics
Have you ever read before that happen?
Redpill me on comics tbh.
They were the more fancy mostly non-cape comics that were a bit more expensive and printed on higher quality material.
no
It's a book and there's pictures
Have you try reading comics then?
>crack
>sip
Yep, those were the days.
Do we have a Shade omnibus yet?