It honestly works better as symbolism. Maybe the enemy feigned surrender and were let in with gifts for a surrender party? Less embarrassing for the Trojans
IIRC they also supposedly inscribed on it something about it being an offering to Athena to guide them home. So the Trojans decided not to destroy it so no god would be pissed off
They found the real Troy and there is evidence of a large battle and the city was razed. Several times. There were like 7 Troys. The one from the Illiad is Troy 4. You should google things before posting.
They did not find the real Troy. There are only suppositions based on geological data and letters from other kingdoms nearby that describe cities that COULD be Troy. There were battles all across the area that could have been the war, but nobody knows for sure. It could all be legend based on various happenings. Don't bullshit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy
Again, just google things before posting. The only debate is which Troy was from the Illiad and all evidence points to Troy 4
They did not find the real Troy. There are only suppositions based on geological data and letters from other kingdoms nearby that describe cities that COULD be Troy. There were battles all across the area that could have been the war, but nobody knows for sure. It could all be legend based on various happenings. Don't bullshit
>There were like 7 Troys. The one from the Illiad is Troy 4.
Back to /x/
Well the Iliad describes that Hephaestus dessicated the lands of Troy as a giant living pillar of fire launched from a volcano and carried on the north winds, completely evaporating the river Xanthus, so just look for evidence of where that happened.
When Hector and Achilles fought, Hector ran away from Achilles like a little b***h. After the fight Achilles drug Hector's body behind a chariot around the city of Troy for like a week.
Achilles at that point just single handedly routed the entire Trojan army and drove half of them into the river Xanthus where he slaughtered every single one of them to the point the river was completely red with blood and damed from the masses of body parts. He then fought the God of the river Xanthus who animated the blood and gore filled river into a living torrent
>Achilles at that point just single handedly routed the entire Trojan army and drove half of them into the river Xanthus where he slaughtered every single one of them to the point the river was completely red with blood and damed from the masses of body parts. He then fought the God of the river Xanthus who animated the blood and gore filled river into a living torrent
As anyone would, given his position.
Though the myth behind it seems to be at least a few centuries older, like from 500+ BCE at least. Apparently there are also depictions of Aeneas on Etrurian vases.
Of course, the Aeneid was first of all propaganda for Octavian.
Sure. I just look at it like "Illiad was already greek propaganda, and the aeneid was written by virgil of all people". Maybe it's based of a couple of refugees, but really it just seems like roman cope and We Wuzing.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Interestingly enough, the first sources connecting Rome with Aeneas seem to be Greek, though other cities on the Italian peninsula. Hard to say what to make of it.
They found the real Troy and there is evidence of a large battle and the city was razed. Several times. There were like 7 Troys. The one from the Illiad is Troy 4. You should google things before posting.
If Troy is really what archeologist say, it's so tiny you could barely fit a real horse.
It's just a poem.
it's a mistranslation/misunderstanding
the greeks were known for having horse motifs on their shipheads
a "wooden horse" would be an Achaean warship, and not an actual fricking wooden horse
a warship would have been a great offering, one that you could easily smuggle soldiers within its bowels
the word for boat (hippo) also means horse, even further illuminating the misinterpretation
The reason I've come across the most is because large waves look like stampeding horses. These are the same people who looked at three stars and made up constellations.
The more I get into it the more it seems like greek mythology was just shit made up by dads to get his kid to stop asking "why" and everyone else just rolled with it.
I don't understand how all of you guys are so confused and dumbfounded by this. The entire story of the Iliad shows us the driving force of all the combat was claiming war prizes and trophies. It's in every single encounter between the two sides and what propells all of the dramatic action between the characters. The Greeks made it seem like they had retreated and made a trophy of a horse from their own ships to offer the Trojans as a symbol of their surrender and the Trojans victory. It's not hard to imagine why they would accept it, especially given the curse upon them that specifically was meant to drive the Trojans towards destruction and to ignore all good advice and council when it came up
Not even the Greeks during Homer's time knew much about bronze age warfare anymore. F.e. they knew that war chariots were used, but not really how or what for.
That shit cracks me up "well we forgot what chariots were used for, so I guess they were just taxis?" But chariot warfare=/= bronze age warfare, just a section of it. You should check out this series of lectures, anon. You seem like you know you're shit, and this guy is great. My favorite quote is " chariots we're not battlefield tanks. They were lamborghinis". High end sports cars used for drive by shootings.
3 months ago
Anonymous
Thanks, anon, sounds promising, I'll look into it.
The ancient sources are pretty definitive that it was a big wooden horse, the sources they worked off of may have been misinterpreted, but unless the surviving sources were also wrong about the Greeks building on site the thing that impregnated Troy it doesn't seem likely it was a ship of which they'd have plenty on hand.
When Hector and Achilles fought, Hector ran away from Achilles like a little b***h. After the fight Achilles drug Hector's body behind a chariot around the city of Troy for like a week.
When did you realize Achilles was based? For me it was when Achilles killed the Amazon queen, fricked her corpse, and then killed a guy who told him to stop.
It was when he duel wielded spears to fight the river god who got pissed he was full of too much blood. Richard Chase would have had a stroke if he saw that.
They didn’t because didn’t happen. Zero evidence of a giant wooden horse. It would’ve taken months to move damn thing from beach to inside Troy. Just no way
Back in that era, monumental statues were relatively common. They were one of the major public works that adorned prominent landmarks. In the case of the Ancient Greeks, these were often wood, with gold plating. Many of the most famous classical Greek statues were wooden. The gift of a large wooden horse effigy would not have been so out of place. >t. wasted too much money on a classics degree
>burn down a statue >destroy the earthly link to a god
I didn't understand why Achilles cutting the head off Apollo was a big dill when I was a kid in theaters. Now, I get that he was basically teabagging all of Troy and the gods at once. What a chad.
This bit drove me crazy because it's so the opposite of Achilles in the poem. Part of what makes him great is that he accepts the deal that the Fates have granted him (brief life, everlasting glory) and treats the gods with due reverence. (Except Scamander, but that doesn't count.) The idea that the great hero has to be militantly irreverent is so not Greek.
That shit cracks me up "well we forgot what chariots were used for, so I guess they were just taxis?" But chariot warfare=/= bronze age warfare, just a section of it. You should check out this series of lectures, anon. You seem like you know you're shit, and this guy is great. My favorite quote is " chariots we're not battlefield tanks. They were lamborghinis". High end sports cars used for drive by shootings.
This episode as we know was detailed in the Aeneid (it isn't present in the Iliad) and in that episode in particular (which was embellished and augmented from the Odyssey) Virgil gives all the reasons why it wasn't that strange for the trojans to fall for it. You should google Laocoön
Virgil describes in the Aeneid how uncomfortable in that wooden horse. It also describes how with their inside man (a traitor called Sinon) they opened the gates of the city to the argive (argos, continental greece. The trojas were also greek) to rape and pillage with pleasure. The Aeneid is a very graphic and cinematographic poem.
it confuses the frick out of me when people reference shit like troy and zeus or the bible and honestly makes me really mad. how the frick is any of this moronic fairy tale shit relevant? why is it “deep” to homage it? it’s all moronic stupid fricking shit and worthless knowledge filling your brain that would be better used for other things. i don’t see why reference the camp fire stories of greek cavemen makes something high brow, if anything it’s low brow. every story written after like 1700 has a more coherent and successful structure and is better as a work of art. none of this crap makes any sense and needs to be left in the past the obsession with it needs to fricking end. i remember hearing a professor liken something to a story by virgil or something and I was like how is that relevant? what does this add mentioning that?
My favorite story in the Bible was when Jehu killed a bunch of Baal's worshippers, took a shit on their idol, and turns the temple into a public bathroom.
Our connection to the past and the works of art that a distant humanity created in a time that's nearly completely lost to us is incredibly important in rooting and connecting us to time, history, civilization and to humanity at large as a concept
>tfw I found out sparta probably wasn't real
haven't felt this bamboozled since finding out Norse mythology is all bullshit made up by people in the Middle Ages and not actually what ancient Norse people believed
What is the best translation of the Iliad for us English speaking internet Americans? The one I bought many years ago is just too much. I believe it was Lattimore.
Why didn't the trojans just knock on the horse before bringing it inside? If someone were to knock on it, the greeks inside would've had to answer.
Helen apparently knocked on it and called out their names in their wives' voices.
It was the first time the trick happened
To be fair, Laocoon tried to warn them but he got eaten by a snake.
Nobody knows if that shit even really happened, or if it was all just poems
It honestly works better as symbolism. Maybe the enemy feigned surrender and were let in with gifts for a surrender party? Less embarrassing for the Trojans
Well, the Trojans thought it was an offering to Poseidon (who invented horses). Just burning it might have invoked Poseidon's wrath.
I'd rather be known for believing in the best of people than being a superstitious whackjob.
tbf, destroying an offering to Poseidon is a great way to doom yourself if you're in a Greek myth.
No, what that anon said is true.
IIRC they also supposedly inscribed on it something about it being an offering to Athena to guide them home. So the Trojans decided not to destroy it so no god would be pissed off
there is zero chance the horse actually happened
They found the real Troy and there is evidence of a large battle and the city was razed. Several times. There were like 7 Troys. The one from the Illiad is Troy 4. You should google things before posting.
>There were like 7 Troys. The one from the Illiad is Troy 4.
Back to /x/
You mean Cinemaphile. You ever been to turkey, anon?
He's right. It was resettled many times. It was a good location and hill forts were kind of a big deal back then.
its the same place, more or less, just the numbering for the archaeological layers
That's not /x/ that's actually real
look what i found today: an anime poster
I work at Troy 937
They did not find the real Troy. There are only suppositions based on geological data and letters from other kingdoms nearby that describe cities that COULD be Troy. There were battles all across the area that could have been the war, but nobody knows for sure. It could all be legend based on various happenings. Don't bullshit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy
Again, just google things before posting. The only debate is which Troy was from the Illiad and all evidence points to Troy 4
Except there is no evidence at all that the Greeks ever attacked the place
Except that they are greeks and that's what greeks do.
Well the Iliad describes that Hephaestus dessicated the lands of Troy as a giant living pillar of fire launched from a volcano and carried on the north winds, completely evaporating the river Xanthus, so just look for evidence of where that happened.
Achilles at that point just single handedly routed the entire Trojan army and drove half of them into the river Xanthus where he slaughtered every single one of them to the point the river was completely red with blood and damed from the masses of body parts. He then fought the God of the river Xanthus who animated the blood and gore filled river into a living torrent
>Achilles at that point just single handedly routed the entire Trojan army and drove half of them into the river Xanthus where he slaughtered every single one of them to the point the river was completely red with blood and damed from the masses of body parts. He then fought the God of the river Xanthus who animated the blood and gore filled river into a living torrent
As anyone would, given his position.
Great post, anon
>vis-a-vis
keep it coming lad, this shit is great
Troy Story 4 was the best one? Sounds wrong.
The stele for Troy Story 2 was accidentally defaced and it only because one sculptor kept the designs that it was even saved
>this will be the sixth time we have razed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient
And the last survivors of the once mighty Troy went on to found one of the greatest empires of all time.
Twas Brute and his Trojans who first landed on Albion and drove out the Giants.
They became known as the Britons.
Aeneid is Roman fanfiction
Though the myth behind it seems to be at least a few centuries older, like from 500+ BCE at least. Apparently there are also depictions of Aeneas on Etrurian vases.
Of course, the Aeneid was first of all propaganda for Octavian.
Sure. I just look at it like "Illiad was already greek propaganda, and the aeneid was written by virgil of all people". Maybe it's based of a couple of refugees, but really it just seems like roman cope and We Wuzing.
Interestingly enough, the first sources connecting Rome with Aeneas seem to be Greek, though other cities on the Italian peninsula. Hard to say what to make of it.
>unironically using BCE
lmfao reddit
>They fell for the horse bit 7 times.
They were just horsin' around anon
>BUT THE 7TH TROY STAYED UP!
Doubt it was a literal wooden horse. Like how the walls of Jericho probably didn't physically fall down. It's all just embellishment and metaphor
If Troy is really what archeologist say, it's so tiny you could barely fit a real horse.
It's just a poem.
Yeah, the horse part isn't real. Just like the gods. But Troy absolutely was, and the Trojan War did happen, several times it seems like.
The poem also states that the walls and gate of Troy were magically raised by Poseidon and then cursed to be destroyed after they angered him
>T. Trojans
Just admit you got your asses kicked by us Greeks or Zeus will smite you with his lightning bolt.
>admitting to being Gayreek
>Nobody knows if that shit even really happened
do you really think someone would just make that up?
it's a mistranslation/misunderstanding
the greeks were known for having horse motifs on their shipheads
a "wooden horse" would be an Achaean warship, and not an actual fricking wooden horse
a warship would have been a great offering, one that you could easily smuggle soldiers within its bowels
the word for boat (hippo) also means horse, even further illuminating the misinterpretation
>holy shit there were warriors on a warship?
>surprised pikachu face .jpg
i've always been wondering waht the link was between Poseidon and horses....
could it be that boats are called sea horses?
The reason I've come across the most is because large waves look like stampeding horses. These are the same people who looked at three stars and made up constellations.
i prefer the horse boat explanation
old scandies were used to use kenningar and all that jazz.
quote:
Some kennings are easier to understand than others. A “spears’ crash” is a battle, the “wave’s horse” is a ship...
The more I get into it the more it seems like greek mythology was just shit made up by dads to get his kid to stop asking "why" and everyone else just rolled with it.
i reserve the shit term for the desert mythology in three books.
Are...you counting the book of mormon? Or are you talking about about another sandpeople religion?
Oh, the big one and it's two bastard kids islam killed zoroastrianism 🙁
talmud killed more
Who was the most based character in the Bible and why was it King David?
you’ve not read either so it doesn’t matter anyway
The horse is made of recycled boat parts in the movie tho, check and mate
Troy was dumb enough to let a ship inside its walls? holy frick even more embarrassing
I don't understand how all of you guys are so confused and dumbfounded by this. The entire story of the Iliad shows us the driving force of all the combat was claiming war prizes and trophies. It's in every single encounter between the two sides and what propells all of the dramatic action between the characters. The Greeks made it seem like they had retreated and made a trophy of a horse from their own ships to offer the Trojans as a symbol of their surrender and the Trojans victory. It's not hard to imagine why they would accept it, especially given the curse upon them that specifically was meant to drive the Trojans towards destruction and to ignore all good advice and council when it came up
Bitches don't know about my bronze age warfare. Plebs and morons, the lot of them.
Not even the Greeks during Homer's time knew much about bronze age warfare anymore. F.e. they knew that war chariots were used, but not really how or what for.
That shit cracks me up "well we forgot what chariots were used for, so I guess they were just taxis?" But chariot warfare=/= bronze age warfare, just a section of it. You should check out this series of lectures, anon. You seem like you know you're shit, and this guy is great. My favorite quote is " chariots we're not battlefield tanks. They were lamborghinis". High end sports cars used for drive by shootings.
Thanks, anon, sounds promising, I'll look into it.
>the word for boat (hippo) also means horse
fuuuuck
The ancient sources are pretty definitive that it was a big wooden horse, the sources they worked off of may have been misinterpreted, but unless the surviving sources were also wrong about the Greeks building on site the thing that impregnated Troy it doesn't seem likely it was a ship of which they'd have plenty on hand.
When Hector and Achilles fought, Hector ran away from Achilles like a little b***h. After the fight Achilles drug Hector's body behind a chariot around the city of Troy for like a week.
When did you realize Achilles was based? For me it was when Achilles killed the Amazon queen, fricked her corpse, and then killed a guy who told him to stop.
It was when he duel wielded spears to fight the river god who got pissed he was full of too much blood. Richard Chase would have had a stroke if he saw that.
Achilles cried when he killed her and Diomedes came to desecrate her body to save Achilles from embarrassment
Achilles was a seething c**t who sniffed his own farts who deserved to get killed by that sissy Paris
At least Hector wasn't playing with cheats on.
Neither was Achilles. Stay mad trojanboi.
>the Thessalonian you’re fighting, he’s the biggest man I’ve ever seen. I wouldn’t want to fight him.
>that’s why no one will remember your name.
They didn’t because didn’t happen. Zero evidence of a giant wooden horse. It would’ve taken months to move damn thing from beach to inside Troy. Just no way
I'd fall for it too. Free shit is cool and a giant horse is also cool.
Some Frenchmen once took a bridge by convincing the other side the war was over and just walking across.
I'm really getting tired of the "uh, actually, nothing interesting ever happened ever" crowd.
>nobody coughed or sneezed or farted for like 8 hours while the Trojans partied
we're supposed to believe this shit?
They all plugged each other's asses with their wieners to prevent excessive farting. Odysseus was a genius Greek.
Back in that era, monumental statues were relatively common. They were one of the major public works that adorned prominent landmarks. In the case of the Ancient Greeks, these were often wood, with gold plating. Many of the most famous classical Greek statues were wooden. The gift of a large wooden horse effigy would not have been so out of place.
>t. wasted too much money on a classics degree
>burn down a statue
>destroy the earthly link to a god
I didn't understand why Achilles cutting the head off Apollo was a big dill when I was a kid in theaters. Now, I get that he was basically teabagging all of Troy and the gods at once. What a chad.
This bit drove me crazy because it's so the opposite of Achilles in the poem. Part of what makes him great is that he accepts the deal that the Fates have granted him (brief life, everlasting glory) and treats the gods with due reverence. (Except Scamander, but that doesn't count.) The idea that the great hero has to be militantly irreverent is so not Greek.
Based Great Courses enjoyer.
No he doesn't, he hates and resents his fate and wants to live a normal mortal man's life
This episode as we know was detailed in the Aeneid (it isn't present in the Iliad) and in that episode in particular (which was embellished and augmented from the Odyssey) Virgil gives all the reasons why it wasn't that strange for the trojans to fall for it. You should google Laocoön
I hate the fact that piece of shit is closer to the Illiad and included more beats to the story then Troy did. Where's my bell?
Forgot pic because I was so triggered, but you all know what I was talking about.
imagine being inside that thing with all your homies, trying not to laugh, waiting to jump out there and kill the trojans and rape their women
Virgil describes in the Aeneid how uncomfortable in that wooden horse. It also describes how with their inside man (a traitor called Sinon) they opened the gates of the city to the argive (argos, continental greece. The trojas were also greek) to rape and pillage with pleasure. The Aeneid is a very graphic and cinematographic poem.
we need more ancient greek kinos
>OK sorry about the war, we're just going to go now, here's a big horse, goodbye
>that's a very strange gift
>...no it isn't
they didn't; it was a fictional plot device
it confuses the frick out of me when people reference shit like troy and zeus or the bible and honestly makes me really mad. how the frick is any of this moronic fairy tale shit relevant? why is it “deep” to homage it? it’s all moronic stupid fricking shit and worthless knowledge filling your brain that would be better used for other things. i don’t see why reference the camp fire stories of greek cavemen makes something high brow, if anything it’s low brow. every story written after like 1700 has a more coherent and successful structure and is better as a work of art. none of this crap makes any sense and needs to be left in the past the obsession with it needs to fricking end. i remember hearing a professor liken something to a story by virgil or something and I was like how is that relevant? what does this add mentioning that?
My favorite story in the Bible was when Jehu killed a bunch of Baal's worshippers, took a shit on their idol, and turns the temple into a public bathroom.
Our connection to the past and the works of art that a distant humanity created in a time that's nearly completely lost to us is incredibly important in rooting and connecting us to time, history, civilization and to humanity at large as a concept
Atheist moment
redditmerican moment. really sad what globohomosexual turned you into
it was all because of the pussy anyway
>tfw I found out sparta probably wasn't real
haven't felt this bamboozled since finding out Norse mythology is all bullshit made up by people in the Middle Ages and not actually what ancient Norse people believed
What is the best translation of the Iliad for us English speaking internet Americans? The one I bought many years ago is just too much. I believe it was Lattimore.
Robert gayles
Its not in the illiad, its a fan fiction
HE FELL FOR THE BIG HORSE