I honestly think it’s bad writing that Hollyhock couldn’t forgive Bojack for something that happened years before they even met
I honestly think its bad writing that Hollyhock couldnt forgive Bojack for something that happened years before they even met
Why should Hollyhock even give a shit about Bojack in the first place? It's not like he's her real father
It will still be a good 10 years before you see retaliation and writers of then labelling writing like this as "mean spirited" and "inauthentic"
>woman acts pissy and is still upset about something years later for no reason and cant let go
i dont know what youre talking about, i thought you people loved realism
>upset about something
That "something" is BoJack getting a minor so drunk that she had to be taken to the hospital and then attempting to sleep with his friend's underage daughter, as well as Hollyhock unknowingly being given drugs by BoJack's dementia ridden abusive mother
But sure she has a vegana so she shouldn't be angry about that shit, right?
Don’t try to reason with anon, his brain just can’t handle it so he resorts to “wymin DUMB”
It's ludicrous that everyone expects everyone to be good to everyone all the time. Is this the "sigma male mentality" I'm hearing so much about lately? Social socialism?
It should be good enough that Bojack is genuinely good to Hollyhock - even her low key resentment that Bojack didn't immediately commit matricide over the pill thing demonstrates the instinctive "I want men to destroy my enemies (so long as they're 'bad guys')" mentality.
But Hollyhock is just being human. Diane had been infected by the Hollywood mind virus by that point so they wanted another new arrival who could react genuinely to the whole fricked up situation, which is what Bojack is really ultimately about - how fricked up the entertainment industry is.
>It should be good enough that Bojack is genuinely good to Hollyhock
He drags her into a drug deal at one point because of his heroin addiction and tries to force himself into her life constantly. He isn't the worst person ever, but he's not very good to Hollyhock.
He treats her as good as he knows how to treat people, better really - actually tries to grow for her and that means a lot. Also she's family which should mean something too. Like
points out they altered her character. Really altered most characters. Artfully but still noticeable under scrutiny.
>People don't relapse into multi-week benders
Wow. Yes they do, I assure you. That's pretty much textbook behavior.
>It's ludicrous that everyone expects everyone to be good to everyone all the time
People expect adults to not try to frick kids, moron.
Even Princess Carolyn argues that he wasn’t trying to frick a kid. Honestly, anyone who thinks that what Bojack did was wrong because it’s “molestation” completely misinterprets the situation.
Yeah, she's being an inconsolable uppity c**t; of course hollywiener is in the wrong, you moron. Typical woman behaviour is what it is.
Touch grass
The mere existence of this character makss no sense. Mexican soap opera tier drama. Secret siblings are always lazy and pointless.
I don't think its about forgiveness, its about Bojack being an oblivious toxic element in people's lives and Hollyhock realizing she was better off before she tried to find him.
I mean imagine you're Hollyhock with your 8 dads or whatever, and you decide to track down your biological family only to find out your dad is the horse from Horsin' Around, except both him and his mother are fricking nuts, and then it turns out he's not your dad, but your brother, and all his washed-up celebrity shenanigans starts leaking in to her life and he's doing the same shit Butterscotch did when he fricked that housekeeper.
To Hollyhock, Bojack is the darkness inside her she didn't realize was there. All that depression and self doubt about not knowing her place in the world? That's just part of being a Horseman. She was looking for whatever is supposed to fill that hole in her heart, and instead found out her whole biological family are empty narcissists, and she ran away from the fathers who loved her FOR THEM?
Inauthentic drivel used to justify an overall pro-suicide message
What do people get out of watching cartoons about terrible and / or depressed people being terrible and / or depressed people?
To make them feel like there's someone doing worse than them
Bojack as a show itself was very funny, and despite the main themes of depression, etc, it was consistently filled to the brim with humor. Be it visually, or what the character interactions build up to and how it effects the world around Bojack.
Horrible people can end up in really funny situations that otherwise wouldn't happen if you're writing about good people. This extends into the realm of TV shows too. With the likes of shows where the main cast are supposed to be shitheads you don't really necessarily root for. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia and Succession are two that come to mind where everybody in the show are actually just bad people, but them being bad people propel the potential for new comedic situations.
Forgot to add Curb your Enthusiasm too, although sometimes Larry is right in that one.
Rick and Morty follows the "Everybody is a shitbag" in the main cast for comedic animations, but I'd say the cast of any adult animation show will always end up completely horrible people as the show goes on with only supporting characters being spared from that.
Why do you think shitty people are entitled to forgiveness or the benefit of the doubt? Are you a shitty person?
It becomes an absurd plot contrivance when Hollyhock is able to look past all of the other heinous shit her brother has done (he sleeps with a very young blonde girl in the first few episodes of the series without checking her ID and her immature personality is played off as a joke, not a sign of predatory behavior). Bojack’s mother irreparably destroying their relationship makes a lot more sense but then it wouldn’t fit the writers’ intent to make Bojack the sole cause of the rift between them. I’m not necessarily against their relationship deteriorating but the final season reeks of the writers trying to clumsily force a bunch of plot conveniences together to justify their intended endings.
Tuca and Bertie has much better pacing (and characterization) but that shit got canceled twice. I guess Chris Savino got his revenge in the end against Lisa Hanawalt.
lol. lmao even.
how come there's no porn yet?
>people have no right to be angry about a rich guy doing multiple felonies
your hat's too tight idiot
I think it's pretty obvious prior to the S5 re-write of the show that Hollyhock was intended to be a motivator for Bojack to keep trying to become a better person. Then after the S5 re-write, she just became someone close to Bojack who condemns him for his actions, and someone close to Bojack he can be responsible for hurting.
The bad writing was the in-show universe treating his choking an actress while high on painkillers as being far worse than getting Sarah Lynn killed just to make himself feel better. His "almost had sex with" Penny and his "almost strangled but was surrounded by people who could have stopped him" event in S5 are both treated as being far worse by every character. Not actually killing someone, but ALMOST doing some bad things.
I consider everything past S4 except Free Churro to be unwatchable due to how bad the writing is.
Everyone who knows Bojack personally also knew Sara Lynn personally and could have predicted what happened there. Bijack's very best friends were there for him even about the Penny thing. They were upset about the choking thing because not only did it represent Bojack truly losing it, but BECAUSE it happened in front of a bunch of people and objectively was fricked up.
Someone having a history of drug use is NO excuse to drag them into a multi-week bender after they've been sober for a long time just because you are feeling depressed and need someone to party with. He was also a father figure to her and she was easily influenced by him. He's more responsible for Sarah Lynn's death than Sarah Lynn.
She was literally in her 30s by that point and completely sober when she agreed to it. I’m really sorry but it comes across as absolutely fricking insane to act like she wasn’t equally responsible (probably much more so) for what happened. The “joke” was that her sobriety felt like a complete success before Bojack came around and ruined things, but it also reinforces that she was completely lucid and essentially made a conscious and voluntary choice to relapse at that moment in time. The writers basically had to write backwards to completely alter the tone of that scene to make it seem like Bojack was somehow forcing her into ruining her life again.
Also, I’m sorry but Bojack is not responsible for her original drug addiction. He treated her like shit as a kid but she was able to keep her shit together as a young adult. Her mental breakdown after Bojack hands her the shitty script is incidental. Writing backwards to make it seem like it was some act of malice by Bojack is fricking insane.
People don't relapse into multi-week benders. They don't have to, since their tolerance has gone down. That's precisely the issue with Bojack encouraging her on a multi-week bender. That's why he's to blame for her death. Same reason why people blame Andy Dick for Phil Hartman's death. His wife was a known user, but Andy supplied the shit.
I’m not going to make any judgments about Hartmann’s death because that’s a sample size of one and, quite frankly, only superficially relevant to the tone of a scene in a fictional show.
What you’re proposing is that Sarah Lynn has no responsibility for her own mental well-being despite being sober for a significant amount of time at that point and being completely lucid when Bojack comes into her life again.
I'm telling you Bojack had a great deal of influence over her, since she spent more time with him than any of her step-fathers. He was one of the few consistent things in her life. In a vacuum, I would agree with your reasoning. Given their relationship, she was pressured into it by the person she had her closest relationship with outside of her mother who clearly neglected her.
They start slow and fall back into old habits, they don't start at full tilt. I deal with methheads all the time at work. When they come into money after being sober for a while, they get an 8-ball and go through a small part of it the first week. They go through 2-3 times as much the 2nd week. They don't do the entire bag the first day unless they are attempting suicide.
For your first point, I don’t think Bojack has any particular responsibility to fill in that void left by her family. More importantly, I’m not even sure that he was ever fully aware of her family situation. Finally, I don’t even think he had a responsibility to know. She was just another actor on the show. He clearly shouldn’t have said all those weird and creepy things to her as a kid, but I wouldn’t even say that he was particularly abusive to her compared to her own mother.
The entire premise of the final season hinges on the notion that Bojack somehow failed in his responsibilities to Sarah Lynn. Meanwhile, I’m thinking “what fricking responsibilities does a strange man have in the life of a kid that he barely knew or cared about at the time?”
>Bojack is not responsible for her original drug addiction
Child actors as an entire concept is fricked up. Bojack tried to give her what he thought at the time was good advice and he was suffering from alcoholism himself at the time. He wasn't the best role model but who is? Did Sara Lynn even know who her dad was?
For a bunch of writers who want to write nuanced and interesting female characters with agency, personality, and their own goals, it was so bizarre to see Hollyhock go from a surprisingly well-rounded young woman with sympathetic flaws and motivations to someone who’s only brought back to be upset that Bojack is doing drugs.
He’s completely fricking wired in the first two seasons and it’s literally played for laughs. The accident where he gets a homeless man killed is a whacky “STAMOOOOOOOOOOOS” moment. I understand that the writers have a very specific intention and they wanted to show that his actions have consequences, but it feels completely unnatural and forced when it slams violently against the tone of nearly identical actions earlier in the series. It doesn’t feel like a reexamination of his past to make us go “oh, I guess that was really fricked up and not that funny if you think about it.” It becomes “it’s super serious business when it happens to someone who’s not a throwaway character.” I’m not sure if that’s hack writing or a sign that the writers are so narcissistic that they legitimately don’t think actions are problematic if they happen to someone you don’t know.
I kind of just wish this was the ending of the show. Giving Bojack a chance to have a real familial relationship that wasn't driven solely by his parents' abuse.
I know they wanted to double down on making Bojack's actions have consequences for himself, but retroactively making what he did worse and backtracking on any progress made started to feel like they were just spinning their wheels to keep the misery train running.
Pudgy horse sexo
Really felt they were stretching the premise a bit much by this point
>Viewer: Bojack is commentary on how Hollywood is fricked up for fricked up people that further fricks up anyone living in that scene.
>Bojack writers: Theres this one jerk me and my friends hate, so we made a cartoon to tell everyone what a piece of shit he is to us.
>western issues the show
being adopted really fricks with your head in ways people who have their birth parents, even shitty birth parents, can't understand.
people say 'simply have the baby and give it up for adoption', but it doesn't really work that way
Bojack should have fricked penny and told everyone who was bothered by it to frick off. Since Penny consented.
Also the ending was overall lucklaster. I am glad the show ended before it became even worse. This way the show ended when it was still ok. Last season was just ok not good.
Looking back, I kind of wish we had a version of the series where Bojack becomes unapologetically fricked up instead of this wishy-washy shit we got with the last two seasons. Just take his character progression and aim it straight down so that everything catches fire and gloriously explodes. At least it would have been more entertaining.
That would have been interesting for sure, but I wished for him to get better. He was just starting/trying to get better again like he did twice throughout the show.
So the ending was just boring and did not resolve the issues most characters had. It was not really an ending.
Also princess carolyn randomly married that Jesus looking guy for some reason, that came out of nowhere too.
Yeah this is what I meant we got to the ending at this point when he was jogging. Then he went back to doing random bad shit and we got to this point again.
I guess maybe that shows that it's never too late, but I would have enjoyed a season or half a season where Bojack is acting normal and is getting better.
Shows/movies having happy ending is pretty rare nowadays though.
I still say this was the best ending for the show.
After this point it really felt like the show went from "You can change and overcome the things that break you and make you a bad person if you really want to and work hard. You can be happy and fix yourself" to "lol just give up. Bojack is a fricking idiot for wanting to change and trying to put any effort to change. He's just fricked forever. We spent all this time trying to show where his trauma comes from and that it doesn't have to define him but it really does. Get fingered, trying is for gays."
The show never said Bojack's hopeless, just that his road to self-improvement isn't going to be linear or easy. If he was truly hopeless they'd have killed him off, but they didn't. He's forced to face the shitty things he's done in prison and after that, he'll be responsible for what he does and doesn't do. Todd said as much at the end.
>If he was truly hopeless they'd have killed him off,
A fan theory that is plausible states that Bojack did drown in the pool and is in his own personal hell now after being revived. A better ending would have been Bojacks funeral and whatever is left of his fortune being used to start an organization to help people like him and used for good as the people who were friends or lived around him would have a better idea and the struggles those people go through. Of course you would also get the people who hate bojack say the non for profit group is bad just because bojacks name is on it, missing the point that this is about helping others and not to worship some dead mans legacy
Nah he did not die.
Would have been a meh ending.
I remember you posting this before and I strongly agree. End on a hopeful note but knowing that Bojack has to work at it. The ending we got feels very nihilistic and that people will not change, and if they do they will relapse sooner or later. It can be argued that Todd is as much as a burn out and horrible in his own ways but because he has luck on his side and a can do attitude he walks away unscathed.
Everything after this point feels like the writers having a fricking panic attack that Bojack can live a better life. The sudden introduction of two stupid detectives is reading like bad fanfiction.
>Everything after this point feels like the writers having a fricking panic attack that Bojack can live a better life.
Add this to the list of Harvey Weinstein's crimes, if he never said he liked the show they never would have had an existential crisis about what kind of message the big wigs in Hollywood were getting from the show. It's his fault they had to speak directly to the audience and punish BoJack for the last 2 seasons.
Daily reminder that the writers sabotaged bojacks character because Mr. Weinstein said he liked Bojack as a character and the series was getting progressively woke. They did not want him to have a happy ending, not even in death.
Yeah man it's totally weird how she couldn't forgive an outwardly unstable middle aged man who gave kids alcohol, went to their prom, and left the door open to fricking a 17 year old
I honestly think the last season was rushed so hard and ended everyone's stories either abruptly or poorly, sometimes both. All that Peanutbutter character development where he became comfortable being himself alone taking place off screen was stupid. Todd had nothing to do the last season. Princess Carolyne's story arch made little sense and was a recipe for disaster if we could see 1 or 2 years down the road.