I only just saw this film and missed the initial discussion, so I'm sure this has been brought up already, but...
Why did 2099 tell Miles about the canon in the first place? Why in the world would anyone think Miles would be okay with his dad being killed? And more egregiously, if the canon is that the police captain has to die, then why not just get Miles's dad fired? I guess Gwen is fine with her dad being killed, but it's portrayed as a solution that he decides arbitrarily to quit his job... What?
Aren't these glaring plot holes? Or am I missing something?
Normally, spider-person would accept sacrficing their love one to save the universe.
Miles is really is the weird one.
>Miles is really is the weird one.
so miles doesn't care if billions die?
why is he a hero again?
also if he does manage to save his dad, wouldn't his world be doomed and his dad along with everyone else would die anyways?
>also if he does manage to save his dad, wouldn't his world be doomed and his dad along with everyone else would die anyways?
that's what Miguel believes.
Miles doesn't believe it will happen and if it does, he thinks they can prevent it. Miguel thinks the risks are too great.
The conflict basically boils down to a struggle between idealism and experience-driven caution.
I said it once and I'll say it again: Making the Spiderman Paradox Police was a bad idea and unneccesary imo. A film with Miles vs The spot as the focus would've been great.
a multidimensional spider-force could have been a good idea but making them be based on accepting and ensuring someone dies because it's "canon" is so against the idea of Spider-Man its ridiculous.
Their universe began to collapse, it wasn't just because of the canon. It was to prevent universal collaspe. People don't pay attention and then they get angry when they're confused later
Universes collapsing because of a single person failing to die on some abstract schedule is quite possibly the dumbest piece of writer fiat ever conceived. People understood the story. They just think it's moronic.
>People understood the story
The person I replied to didn't or they were deliberately pretending they didn't and I'm too autistic to let that go.
>Universes collapsing because of a single person failing to die on some abstract schedule
It sort of makes sense.
Things are supposed to happen in a certain way and upsetting it means the universe craps out and collapses. Same thing applies in time travel movies where upsetting things in one timeline can either collapse or alter the timeline. It's a very generic thing established in most media with stories like this. It's established in the first movie that a character from another dimension existing in another one would cause them to die so why wouldn't altering the course of another histories timeline cause another form of upset?
>Things are supposed to happen in a certain way and upsetting it means the universe craps out and collapses
Nah, that's deterministic garbage that doesn't fit Spider-Man writing at all
>Nah, that's deterministic garbage that doesn't fit Spider-Man writing at all
Spider Totems.
I don't like them either but the whole "destiny" aspect is pretty part and parcel with spiderverse stories like in the comics. It's been retconned that peter was basically "destined" to be bitten by the spider in comics a while back, how does that piss you off less than the whole "canon events" thing?
Spider-Totems were moronic too
>how does that piss you off less than the whole "canon events" thing?
Everyone called them out as moronic back then, this movie's inane writing hasn't been brought up at all anywhere but here
Spider Totems are fricking terrible, as are "Canon Events" in ATSV. Imbuing Spider-Man, the quintessential everyman character, with destiny-shit is just a fundamental misunderstanding of why the character works.
It's just so weird that in a world of literal gods, it's the friendly neighborhood spiderman who the entirety of the fabric of reality revolves around. Like the other anon said, it just doesn't fit the character.
This is an issue that has preexisted long before the movies and I do have to agree.
While I do like the spiderverse concept as a one off thing, I don't really like how because of spiderverse and NWH the whole "multiverse angle" has pretty much become more synonymous with the character and I genuinely hope the new MCU spiderman movies and the eventual release of BTSV puts that shit into a hiatus for a bit.
The whole point of even having a multiverse is to keep continuity clear. The idea of the existence of one is that "Things happen differently" and there is no "right" way things are supposed to happen.
>in a world of literal gods, it's the friendly neighborhood spiderman who the entirety of the fabric of reality revolves around
unironically based fabric of reality
The films are still set in the wider MCU multiverse, they just focus on the "Spider-Verse" (a subset of universes within the ever expanding and branching sacred timeline) because it's literally about Spider-People.
>Things are supposed to happen in a certain way and upsetting it means the universe craps out and collapses
Are you for real? In fricking MULTIVERSE series, you're saying things can only play out ONE way or else the universe shits itself?
>every choice we make, in another world the opposite is taken, thats how the multiverse is created
>unless is that descision, where if the opposite happens your universe just dies lol
I fricking despise multiverse stories.
Owlman was right
I understand the plot, it's a bad plot for a Spider-man story.
Well. If the plot doesn't exist as is and Miguel has precognative algorithms and dimension traveling abilities, then the idea of any crime or tradgey existing seems silly, right?
This guy knows. It’s the Superman doesn’t kill thing all over again. Just because you can come up with some super specific scenario where he has to doesn’t make you smart. That kind of thing doesn’t have a place in a story about an alien Boy Scout who flies around in red underwear.
>first half of the film has Spot, who is massively fun to watch for being kind of a bumbling nerd but also has an interesting powerset
>he gets his power up halfway through the movie and basically dips out
I really enjoy that Miles basically made him by just starting off by either not listening to him and making light of his ass the whole time leading to Spot being even more bitter and willing to do crazy-ass shit to make Miles take him seriously. Who knew just being a real butthole to someone going through a rough life situation had consequences?
Hardly anyone talks about it or him though in these threads, it's a damn shame.
It is a shame, but really, considering what else the movie has going on it's not surprising he got passed up for other more volatile points. Regardless, Spot was a real highlight of the movie. A lot of fun and seeing him learn to use his powers more and more and go from bumbling goof with a bit of a grudge to outright hating Miles and entirely driven to destroying him and everything else in the process to get over the "villain of the week" title was great. Considering he's effectively a dimension altering god like being now I'm not sure if he'll be as much fun in the next movie but at least what we got of him so far was good fun.
Unironically he is up there with Aku and Zurg for serious and goofy bad guys.
Oh absolutely. He was great. And that we got to see him as a confused goof and a goof building up more and more powerful means we got some varied moments with him. I only hope they can keep up that personality he had when the movie eventually switches focus back on him. I fear that in his growing power and near omnipotence he may lose some of that personality that made him fun in the first place.
I think given he can run out of Spots there may be a chance for him to get more and more goofy and lighthearted the more he expends his powers.
>he can run out of Spots
Oh yeah. Good point. You know, I kind of thought that maybe since he was going full multidimensional entity mode that he may not have to worry about that any more but it's very possible he could still run into that issue. Yeah, that may even be a reasonable way for them to weaken him and maybe work as a good excuse to keep the other countless Spiders busy so he can have a one on one with Miles.
>A lot of fun and seeing him learn to use his powers more and more
It's interesting comparing the chase sequence from the beginning of the movie to when they're in India universe and He's in complete control of his powers to the point Spidey's can't keep up with him.
The difference between that first chase and the one in India was great. In one he's a bumbling mess where even Miles' dad can almost stumble along with them. In India he's grown to the point where not even multiple Spiders can keep up with him. And his whole demeanor had changed as well. He was still goofy but now he was feeling himself and he had a lot of confidence and a goal he was working towards. It wasn't much of a fight exactly and more like a movement challenge but it still possessed a lot of threat potential there either way. If we get a rematch, hopefully it will build on that well and find a way to show his attitude but now with his godlike power giving him immense confidence and direction.
But then that would require miles to carry the film by himself
The options are to either explain why saving Captain Singh was bad or refuse to explain anything, leading Peter is spy again like when they followed Gwen. It isn't a plot hole, Cinema Sins
>saving Captain Singh was bad
Indian Peter's reality is still there, just fine. Hell, he's siding with Miles in the end. If this canon event distortion thing is actually real, then he would have the most reason of anyone to argue against Miles: his reality should be GONE right now. But hey, I guess whatever science containment gunk the gang did was enough to stop it? But if so, then why fight Miles at all?
None of this 'canon event' shit makes any sense.
Spot caused that according to Miles.
I mean he did. It's like Miguel saying if Miles hadn't been bit Peter would have lived, but what did Miles do to cause that? It was Fisk and his scientists, including the Spot.
>his reality should be GONE right now.
the other spider people had to step in and fix it, and they even state that sometimes they aren't able to. pay more attention.
You think the canon thing was invented by doctor octopus?
Just to make every spider-person as broken as possible.
>Why in the world would anyone think Miles would be okay with his dad being killed?
miles is apparently a huge c**t in 42's universe. potentially most universes, if he is usually the man who becomes prowler. spideys are going to profile him accordingly.
>if the canon is that the police captain has to die, then why not just get Miles's dad fired?
i'm actually willing to bet some spidey tried this and it got the guy killed even worse
>it's portrayed as a solution that he decides arbitrarily to quit his job... What?
we don't know if it definitely is a solution. because the movie is a two parter and we don't know what happens next.
Miles-42 only became the Prowler because Miles-1610 got the spider that was ‘meant’ for him.
>Miles-42 only became the Prowler because Miles-1610 got the spider that was ‘meant’ for him.
This, there was thread yesterday with people saying that Miles 42 wasn't necessary supposed to be Spider-man but the Spot flash back heavily implies it.
>if the canon is that the police captain has to die, then why not just get Miles's dad fired?
> i'm actually willing to bet some spidey tried this and it got the guy killed even worse
In the movie that happens to Gwen’s dad, and he’s okay.
>if the canon is that the police captain has to die, then why not just get Miles's dad fired?
that would also be making an intervention, because you are actively making him not met his dead, maybe gwen's dad quitting may mean it's another captain close to her that will die, it's just her canon because she didn't make it consciously, but the answer of what is it will be in the next movie, that's the point of the conflict of the movie
>In the movie that happens to Gwen’s dad, and he’s okay.
it may mean that another captain she will met and be close to will die, or it won't. The point is we will know if the canon is trully canon even when trying to change it, or we will get to know that it can be changed, i think that's the whole point of the movie
I wouldn’t call them plot holes. Miguel was definitely a little unhinged and already made up his mind with what he was going to do. Notice how after Miles escapes he turns to all the other spider people and has to say “Don’t listen to him. We are the good guys.” They also said the dad death event was a strong statistical probability. I’m sure some universes could be exceptions without disrupting the fabric of everything. Miles’ origin is already an anomaly.
The bigger thing I’m wondering is how long these other spider people have been on board with this. It doesn’t seem like they do much “living” other than protecting the peace in some universe protection force. That’s why I appreciated the therapist gag.
The whole thing was built on seething that Miles isn't universally beloved.
https://desuarchive.org/co/thread/137577445/
Don't believe this shit for a second lmao
The writers of the movie literally admitted the core of the story is about the audiences poor reaction to miles and their thoughts on that.
Irregardless I don't wholeheartedly think the backlash against miles was THAT BIG enough to warrant that. And honestly that only really came into play when Miguel was shit talking miles for not being a proper Spiderman due to him being an anomaly and a replacement to peter. I would argue its one of the main tenants of the movie, but not a core message
>Irregardless I don't wholeheartedly think the backlash against miles was THAT BIG enough to warrant that.
No, of course not (unfortunately), but that's the entire gimmick, making him a shit character then crying racism when people aren't impressed.
>And honestly that only really came into play when Miguel was shit talking miles for not being a proper Spiderman due to him being an anomaly and a replacement to peter. I would argue its one of the main tenants of the movie, but not a core message
Oh frick off, Spot exists and shows up only to keep calling Miles Spider-Man unprompted.
That wasn't the core of the story all.
Which is moronic because the complaint most fans have about Miles is that he’s too similar to Peter, not that they don’t want him to be too different
The writers wrote the main conflict of the plot to dunk on a straw man miles critic, that’s so unbelievably pathetic
Literally no one (other than /cotards) has a problem with miles
he's either looked at with indifference or liked by most people who haven't read the comics (which funnily enough is most people who've watched spiderverse).
Nah plenty of people have brought up tons of genuine flaws with Miles not related to his race
I haven't really heard them or at least any I have agreed with.
I don't think he's an empty vacuum like his comic book counterpart and apart from borrowing a bit too many of his villians peter I do think the movies do a good job of at least making things like his villain's (prowler and the spot) and his love interest (gwen) completely his own.
>making things like his villain's (prowler and the spot) and his love interest (gwen) completely his own.
As in their tied to him in unquie ways and aren't just lazily handed to him.
>aren't just lazily handed to him.
-The prowler was his uncle who he looked up to while being completely unaware of his supervillain background
-The spot was inadvertently created by him during the events of the first movie
-Gwen is a girl from another universe who he shared a kinship with due to their similar backgrounds
All I'm saying is that it was handled a lot better than it was in the comics.
>NAH, IMMA DO MY OWN THANG
>SPIDER MAN IS THE ONLY CHARACTER TO HAVE CREATED HIS SUIT
Ah, casuals.
>missing the point this hard
Has to be intentional
>tries to argue that Spider-Man's plot points are unique to the character
>they're not
I guess your point was moronic.
>still missing the point
Look at the image homie, LOOK
Anon, it’s a snoyshill. He doesn’t try to win argument because he knows the movie is an ungodly pile of shit, his goal is to flood every discussion with white noise to drown out criticism.
>multiple pieces of evidence pointed out
>only covers one
>Lol I win
Neverr seen a more pathetic response in my life.
You fricking moron. The image clearly demonstrates how everything about Miles as a character (his spider powers, his costume, his webshooters, the villains he fights, his love interest, and arch nemesis (Prowler) are all copied, hand-me downs or outright stolen from Peter. Everything about the character was, as this anon claims otherwise
, "lazily handed to him", from a writing standpoint. He's a fricking Poochie through and through.
I don’t understand why people can’t like the Miles portrayal in the movies and admit his comics are bad. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
>Literally no one (other than /cotards) has a problem with miles
Genuine moron moment.
Yes, the movie is full of plot holes, nothing makes sense and it feels like it was subject to massive rewrites, but pretty colors and halved FPS makes audiences just turn off their brains
Because the writers said that it’s about miles being the bestest and that you’re racist chuds for having complaints about him
He wanted to talk it out with Miles peacefully and make him understand that it's for the best and to realize the consequence of what he did in Spiderman India's universe.
And the canon is that a police captain close to Spiderman dies. But if there is no police captain close to Spiderman, another canon event would probably occur. As for Spiderman India, if his girlfriend's dad wasn't a police captain the canon event would've probably been his girlfriend dying.
Miles was already aware his dad was gonna die thanks to the temporary future vision he got from the spot. If Miguel hadn't informed him about why he can't prevent it from happening he was going to go try and stop it from happening
Why does Spot have temporary future vision, why can Spot share his temporary future vision with Miles, why does Miguel know Miles had a temporary future vision and its contents
In some stories, Spider-Sense could be used as a form of future vision. Like, Assassin Spider-Man literally trained to the point that he could predict what a person was going to do before they did it. Annie in the RYV Universe had a Spider-Sense so strong she got images seconds before they happened. When Miles got hit with the blast it linked his Spider-Sense with the thread of the multiverse for a moment and he saw the Canon event of both universes.
What the frick? Am I completely moronic or did this not happen in the movie?
it happened, don't know what else to tell ya.
I'm pretty sure Miles just tells Miguel that Spot is going to kill his dad
>I'm pretty sure Miles just tells Miguel that Spot is going to kill his dad
Wasn't that only after Miguel already infodumped him on canon events
>Wasn't that only after Miguel already infodumped him on canon events
Because Miles saved the captain in the spiderman India universe. Not because Miguel knew about Miles' vision.
>Because Miles saved the captain in the spiderman India universe.
I don't see why tell him, just push him back into his universe without telling him anything and problem solved
>I don't see why tell him
To make him understand how badly he fricked up.
> just push him back into his universe without telling him anything and problem solved
he wasn't aware of anything else Miles wanted to do besides join the spider society.
>To make him understand how badly he fricked up.
Why, you're just creating a liability where there should be none
>he wasn't aware of anything else Miles wanted to do besides join the spider society.
I think "kid wants to save dad from dying" is a reasonable guess
>creating a liability
Miguel wanted Miles to understand that they are the good guys I guess and to convey the gravity of the situation. If someone doomed an entire universe you'd probably want to tell them so they'd avoid doing it again in the future.
>kid wants to save dad from dying
Miguel didn't know that Miles' dad was captain before the info dump. Miles connected the dots after Miguels' explanation with Spot's vision and wants to save his dad.
>Miguel wanted Miles to understand that they are the good guys I guess and to convey the gravity of the situation. If someone doomed an entire universe you'd probably want to tell them so they'd avoid doing it again in the future.
Or you could just not tell them and send them back to their own universe with no way to travel the multiverse like Miles was all along
>Miguel didn't know that Miles' dad was captain before the info dump. Miles connected the dots after Miguels' explanation with Spot's vision and wants to save his dad.
So he expected Miles and all the other Spider-Men to be okay with letting innocent people die
>So he expected Miles and all the other Spider-Men to be okay with letting innocent people die
yes. let one person die to save billions kinda thing.
Spider-Man doesn't do that
apparently, a whole society of them does.
Nah, that's terrible writing and a way to miss the whole point of Spider-Man
Insomniac spidey let his aunt may die to get a vaccine for several innocents.
being Spiderman is about sacrifice.
>Insomniac spidey let his aunt may die to get a vaccine for several innocents.
Nah he wanted to save both but he was too late
You seriously don't think the other Spiderman didn't want too either? They all know the consequences and some of them have already attempted to save people destined to die which is why they tried stopping miles.
We were never shown that so no, headcanon doesn't excuse poor storytelling
It was literally hinted at that multiple spiderman have tried changing the canon and their universes nearly or completely suffered because of it.
Hell miguel literally lost everything trying to take the place of another miguel
No we are never shown anyone trying to save everyone and looking for a solution except Miles
Are you broken?
I literally just said it's implied and deliberately shown what the consequences were for altering the events.
Miles was one of the only ones to look for a solution because he wasn't clued into the whole "canon events" concept unlike all the other spidermen chosen by miguel.
>implied
It isn't
>Miles was one of the only ones to look for a solution because he wasn't clued into the whole "canon events" concept unlike all the other spidermen chosen by miguel.
But he literally was
not that anon, but I think you might just be autistic
Pointing out movie detail claims are wrong is autistic?
Yes and I'm too autistic to let you claim overwise.
just cause something is not showed on screen does not mean it never happens.
I bet you think tony lives at the end of the sopranos.
see
Weren’t we just arguing that other characters knew the consequences of intervening? That was shown on screen because of the India world glitching out, and again with the 2099 flashback. Are you just sliding the argument to confuse people?
No, see
>other characters knew the consequences of intervening?
So everyone has access to the same info but only Miles tries to save everyone like Spider-Man would
That post was made after we already started arguing. So yes, you are just trying to move goal posts around until you win “something”.
Peter B was with Miguel when his adopted world fell apart. Everyone in Mubaihatten or whatever it was called saw the world begin to collaspse.
Those are things Miles saw too
Do you believe that I someone excluded Miles from "everyone"?
And people saw Miguel show them a hologram of the collapse later, I am saying that Peter B was there in the moment and trying to save it with Miguel.
they literally all talk to Miles saying that they'd like to help, but that they can't risk dooming a universe. Miguel even says that they've caused other universes to break just like Spiderman Indians by intervening and breaking the canon. You just weren't paying attention.
The only reason he did that was because he didn’t get the cure in time to create a large enough dose to save both May and the countless innocent civilians and he had only a minute tops to decide, there was zero room for compromise there. Plus Aunt May told him to let herself die so he could save everyone else
Yes, but Spot tells Miles he's going back to their universe to kill everyone Miles loves before Miles saves Captain Singh.
What does that have to do with anything
Miles know he needs to back and protect his family from Spot before he save Singh or knows about Canon. Him knowing about Canon doesn't change the action he was already going to do. So as long as no one else tries to help like Miles helped Indian spider-man it should matter. If he can save his Dad then it wasn't canon to happen.
So if Miles just lived normally without going into the multiverse and getting Miguel's, and his dad was about to die in the canon event and Miles managed to saved him, the whole multiverse would start collapsing around them and they wouldn't know why?
No, do you know how many time Peter saves Gwen in the comics before he finally doesn't? It's a lot.
Do you know how many time he saves Jean Dewolf and Captain Stacy across all media the that is included in the Spiderverse? It's not zero.
Hell Gwen Saves her Dad in her own origin story in the last movie and he leaves the force at the end of the movie. No black hole when that happened.
If Miles can save his Dad with out help from outside his universe (spider-bite not included) then it was always going to play out that way.
So why does the movie claim otherwise
Because Miguel O'Hara is an idiot in this movie. It's the only way the movie makes a shed of sense without ignoring 60 year stories. The only times we see reality fall apart are Miles and Miguel going outside their Earth and changing something. Mayday Parker's birth and Pete and MJ getting back together doesn't end the universe even though it only happened because of Miles, but saving a "Captain" that Spider-man knows does. the whole thing feels arbitrary.
The only way it make sense is if Miguel is wrong.
How come Miles replacing his Spider-man didn't destroy anything but Miguel replacing another Miguel did.
If Miles's Peter hadn't died because Miles was bitten spider 42, Pete would have destroyed the collider. wouldn't that have trapping Gwen in Miles's universe. Leaving Gwen's New York without a Spider-woman. Would that have destroyed Gwen's universe or Miles's? Does canon only apply to letting people die or does it apply to saving people too? I don't know. Do you think the person who wrote the script knows? Probably not
Miguel being an idiot and every Spider-Man going along with the idiot's obviously wrong claims kind of makes them all look like incompetent irresponsible morons, these movies' writing is a mess
>Because Miguel O'Hara is an idiot in this movie
This is the impression I got right away. He acts like the leading authority on multiverse law but all even at a glance all his evidence is circumstantial and full of holes at just a glance.
Now the real problem is how he's convinced so many Spidermen to his side with such little evidence. Way more Spiders than Hobie should have told him to frick off.
It's hard to tell because everyone except Miles acts like a bumbling idiot at all times because of this writing style, including his trans girlfriend.
Even Hobie makes no sense because he went along with that bullshit *for a year* until Miles came along, the literal anarchist rebel Spider-Man is fine with Miguel's bullshit but Miles isn't
It is implied by him breaking apart and stealing tech when he was walking and talking with Miles he was actually making multiple copies of the dimensional transporters and was literally only there to steal shit and take the piss out of the Spider-Society. The real weird thing was the implication he was friends with a cop unless the movie might be implying he killed the police captain.
Also is SpiderGwen's destiny to accidentally delete herself snapping her own neck at the Washington Bridge. If so would avoiding all bridges like sleeping beauty avoids sowing machines, would that make universe explode. Gwen dying has to be a "Canon" event.
I feel like he can be wrong in the details, but is traumatized from the consequences of universe breaking, as well as being unwilling to risk anything at such high stakes.
That's obvious. The dude was two steps away from a full-blown stress-induced breakdown already and then Miles started messing up his extremely precarious multiverse even more.
It happened when the Spot absorbed the collider in the India Spider-Man world, right before he broke the canon.
>And more egregiously, if the canon is that the police captain has to die, then why not just get Miles's dad fired
This is actually a good theory, just get his father fired and this shitshow wouldn’t happen in the first place. Maybe that’ll be a plot point in the sequel?
This was hinted at by making Gwen's dad avoid death simply by quitting and it might be the most moronic piece of writing in a superhero movie since Martha
I like how they made Gwen trans in this film. Really made it more powerful.
I just refuse to believe any variant of Spider-Man would be okay with letting someone die just because its "canon" and has to happen or else the universe breaks.
That's just not something a hero does, that's not something Spider-Man of all people would do.
We've never ever seen stories about Spider-man being traumatized by people who he failed to save. Never. He's cool with death.
I turned myself into a Spider Man Morty I'm SPIIIDERMAAAAN RIIIIICK
Why doesn't Miles just drop the spider-man name?
Just be like "Hey I don't have to follow the Spider-Man canon, I already had a Spider-Man in my universe so those things are fulfilled already, he probably already had an uncle who died. Me? I'm uh... ArachnoMan. Arachnoman, Arachnoman, does whatever a Spider-man can't."
He seems really hell-bent on being "Spider-Man" specifically in the movie, makes him look like an butthole
Right but if the name is what makes it a UNIVERSAL THREAT then you know maybe just do some interviews and drop it? It's not like everyone in his universe is forced to call him it, I'm sure if he said "Hey the ACTUAL Spider-Man died before and I don't wanna disrespect him by taking his name when I didn't know him, call me Blider man or some shit I dunno."
They already had someone bitten by the spider, he already fulfilled whatever funky obligations there are.
Yeah and that b***h Auny May personally built him web shooters just to frick over nephew.
The nephew who was already dead?
Yeah. Pissed all over his grave
Ah. You're right. Frick the dead. I guess since Spider-Man is dead and frick the dead, Miles can do whatever he wants? Glad you enlightened me
I mean what else is she going to do with the webshooters? There's a dumbass kid with spider powers who wants to do hero shit, why not?
Because her nephew got killed in that line of work? She wants this random 13yo she just met to die too?
"great power, great responsibility"
By your own choice, not pushing it onto others
Your already pushed into assuming the responsibility if you have the power too, that's what it means.
Miles nor Peter, has a choice on whether or not they have to save people, they have a duty to thanks to their ability to.
Contradicted by ATSV, they only save those decreed by destiny
Not saving one to save billions is still assuming responsibility.
Sacrifice is a core component of Spiderman.
Nah Spider-Man doesn't trade lives for the greater good or stand by and watch people die
There’s one unhinged supervillain version of Spider-Man operating all this. Many of the people we see around him are following his commands against their better judgment because it seemed like a good idea at the time. This is why the VR chick helps Miles escape. This is why Spider-Punk helps him escape. This is why people just stare at Miguel in silence after he lashes out. This is why Gwen assembles a team at the end. I’m going insane arguing about movies with actual children.
>There’s one unhinged supervillain version of Spider-Man operating all this.
And everyone just goes along with the unhinged supervillain
>Many of the people we see around him are following his commands against their better judgment because it seemed like a good idea at the time. This is why the VR chick helps Miles escape. This is why Spider-Punk helps him escape. This is why people just stare at Miguel in silence after he lashes out. This is why Gwen assembles a team at the end. I’m going insane arguing about movies with actual children.
Why would Spider-Men need Miles to tell them letting people die is wrong
>And everyone just goes along with the unhinged supervillain
Because they know the consequences he speaks of are true.
>Why would Spider-Men need Miles to tell them letting people die is wrong
They don't need him too, they already know deep down but know the consequences if the sacrifices aren't made
>Because they know the consequences he speaks of are true.
And Miles doesn't?
>They don't need him too, they already know deep down but know the consequences if the sacrifices aren't made
But they were all fine with letting Miles' dad until he protested and ran
>And Miles doesn't?
Yes... because he hasn't seen them/understand them, isn't a member of the spider society, is an anomaly, and obviously is a young kid who dosen't want to see his dad die.
>But they were all fine with letting Miles' dad until he protested and ran
They were fine with it because they knew the consequenecs
I keep saying this shit but at this point your either baiting, autistic, stubborn, or all of the above.
>Yes... because he hasn't seen them/understand them
But Miguel literally showed him the same stuff he showed to everyone and Miles was the only to rebel
>and obviously is a young kid who dosen't want to see his dad die.
They should all be heroes trying to help a kid save his dad's life, not fight him to stop it
>They were fine with it because they knew the consequenecs
So did Miles
>I keep saying this shit but at this point your either baiting, autistic, stubborn, or all of the above.
You keep avoiding the crux of the issue because you know you are wrong
You’re arguing about the leader surrounded by henchmen trope like it’s the first time you’ve seen it before. Plus, like I mentioned, it seemed like a good idea at the time, but most of the lower grunts (like Gwen) don’t realize how much of a cult it is until it’s too late. Everything you’ve mentioned is just an excuse to get to an action scene where Miles is being chased by a million spider-men. Scenes like this are why people are onions-jacking and being thrilled with a sense of adventure like we almost never see in modern animated movies. That’s what was on the creators minds. It’s unlikely your points even crossed their minds very much because they were never going to delve into the inner thoughts of EVERY background character. I’m sure if they did the characters would be second-guessing their actions. You see this as a failure that they didn’t think this through. I see it as sad that this is your only takeaway. Cinema sins has rotted your brain. Obsessed.
>You’re arguing about the leader surrounded by henchmen trope
Making all Spider-Men henchmen to a villain is good writing to you?
>it seemed like a good idea at the time
What time and how is it different than Miles' time
>but most of the lower grunts (like Gwen) don’t realize how much of a cult it is until it’s too late
Why does Miles get it instantly then
>Everything you’ve mentioned is just an excuse to get to an action scene where Miles is being chased by a million spider-men
So, bad spectacle writing?
>Scenes like this are why people are onions-jacking and being thrilled with a sense of adventure like we almost never see in modern animated movies. That’s what was on the creators minds. It’s unlikely your points even crossed their minds very much because they were never going to delve into the inner thoughts of EVERY background character. I’m sure if they did the characters would be second-guessing their actions. You see this as a failure that they didn’t think this through.
Yeah bad spectacle writing
>I see it as sad that this is your only takeaway.
That's the only rational takeaway
>Cinema sins has rotted your brain. Obsessed.
What?
The mind of Spider-Verse haters. How embarrassing. I’ll remember this the next time I see a thread made.
>stupid plot can't be explained
>"uhhh you're just a hater"
The webshooters that she decided to build specifically to give to Miles? What else was she supposed to do with them? Is that your question?
LMAO pretty sure it's whoever is bitten by the spider, not the name
Bad movie.
>Spider-men are now part of some multiversal police death cult that seeks to ensure certain people die (their loved ones)
Who the frick thought this was a good idea?
i bet my ass the writing team cornered themself and will pull a retcon shit with
>IT WAS OTTO ALL ALONG
>IT WAS OTTO ALL ALONG
A lot of people want this to be the case and honestly I think thats stupid. The last thing this trilogy needs is a twist villain.
I think the one thing I was genuinely confused about was, why spider byte let Miles get away. She knew the potential universe-shattering consequences of letting him escape. Did she agree with him? Was that ever stated?
this idea that miles is the only one who disagrees with the canon is moronic, of course all the spidermen agree with the canon, the ones who dont get imprisoned until their canon plays out then shoved into the go home machine like they were about to do to miles.
Assumption based on nothing. Almost every Spidey we know appears in the SS, and they all go along. Even if it is true that it isn't 100%, who cares? Then it's just some copy-paste randoms that get turned away. Every Spider-Man anyone cares about besides the few that don't appear at all go along with this bullshit.
>Assumption based on nothing
you are actually straight up moronic.
we saw with our own eyes what they do to spidermen who want to break the canon.
We saw what happens when one wants to, there is no indication that that happens regularly. If anything the fact that there was no organized process for dealing with it besides just dogpiling him and throwing him in with the trespassers indicates that it doesn't happen regularly at all.
And like I said it doesn't matter anyway, 99% of the Spideys that matter toe the line.
>And like I said it doesn't matter anyway, 99% of the Spideys that matter toe the line.
yea no shit, its a movie about spiderman of course they want to give the coolest spidermen cameos and roles.
if they left out half the cool spidermen, you'd just b***h about that instead.
>it's okay to debase all these beloved characters and everything they stand for because le heckin cameos
Or maybe write a movie where the cool Spider-Men aren't made out to be complacent psychos so Miles can look better in comparison
honestly i feel like the movie took the wrong direction after the first one, instead of focusing on giving more spiderman action we get tangled with mutiverse bullshit/drama
kinda crazy how good the first one is compared with at the second one
>kinda crazy how good the first one is compared with at the second one
the second one is just half a movie.
i was hoping in more action and memorable soundtrack, and the new one doesn't delivery it
miguel is the only part of the movie that gave me the vibe i was looking for
You better believe this movie had overwhelming more studio meddling than the first one. It was too successful for it's own good.
Read the "industry response" section on the wikipedia article and you will immediately realize the problem. It drew too much attention from the wrong crowds, especially big names in hollywood and the animation industry. This thing was strangled in the cradle by vultures wanting a piece of the pie.
Does it not bug anyone else that by showing Peter B. helping Miguel to try & save the universe he jumped into to be with his daughter retcons Peter into being aware of the multiverse and other Spider-Men before the events of ITSV
No, because I remember Miguel didn't have the ability to travel universes until the post credits of the original film and I understand that event happened behind the scenes between the two films. But I can follow a plot and think critically.
Ok, thanks for reminding me of this. Then this dimensional super-spider initiative has only been going on a few years. So why would anybody be an expert on what’s going on like autistic anons are demanding?
It makes no sense that he would go to the 60s Spider-Man if his only goal was to reach his daughter
I don't think that was his only goal, I think he realized it was a possibility.
>scenes exist to be jokes
>ugh, being fun doesn’t make sense
You’re really annoying.
When was it even hinted that his only goal was to reach his daughter? What is a single sentence from the film that even comes close to that?
>Why did 2099 tell Miles about the canon in the first place?
Because miles saved the spider india police man, miguel had to talk about canon events because it was the only way to make miles understand that he fricked up by saving the cop and now spider poo universe is in danger
Anon you need to pay attention to the movie
>miguel had to talk about canon events because it was the only way to make miles understand that he fricked up by saving the cop and now spider poo universe is in danger
Why? Send back Miles to his universe where he can't interfere anymore and you tied up that loose end
NTA but they were planning on doing that but he broke out.
He broke out because they told him, had they sent him back without telling him there wouldn't have been an issue
>He broke out because they told him
They didn't know beforehand that his dad was going to be a canon event. Miles connected the dots after the PowerPoint presentation along with spots vision and told Miguel that he needs to go back home.
>had they sent him back without telling him there wouldn't have been an issue
not necessarily, because Miles knew that his dad was endangered already (cause of spot), he just didn't know what the potential cost of saving him would be.
>They didn't know beforehand that his dad was going to be a canon event. Miles connected the dots after the PowerPoint presentation along with spots vision and told Miguel that he needs to go back home.
They had a new Spider-Man who hasn't gone through his canon events yet, instead of sending him back without the knowledge of those so he can experience them naturally, they told him, giving him a chance to try to stop them
>not necessarily, because Miles knew that his dad was endangered already (cause of spot), he just didn't know what the potential cost of saving him would be.
They didn't know that
>gone through his canon events yet
his uncle dying was a canon event.
>instead of sending him back without the knowledge of those so he can experience them naturally
just because you know something bad will happen doesn't mean you can stop it.
>they told him, giving him a chance to try to stop them
they wanted him to realize the damage he caused and make sure he doesn't do it again.
>They didn't know that
ok? So when they found out that Miles knows of a canon event, which they wouldn't have if they had not told him of what they were, they chose to stop him.
>his uncle dying was a canon event.
That's just the first one, they show there's lots more to come
>just because you know something bad will happen doesn't mean you can stop it.
What an unnecessary risk to take when the thing at stake is reality itself
>they wanted him to realize the damage he caused and make sure he doesn't do it again.
They could've just sent him back to his dimension without telling him so he couldn't do it again even if he wanted to
>ok? So when they found out that Miles knows of a canon event, which they wouldn't have if they had not told him of what they were, they chose to stop him.
The argument was that they told him because he already knew, but they didn't know he knew so that can't be why they told him
>They could've just sent him back to his dimension without telling him so he couldn't do it again even if he wanted to
> they didn't know he knew so that can't be why they told him
They told him because of what he did to Spiderman India's universe, a place he was very much not supposed to be.
If they didn't tell him and he somehow ended up in another universe and started fricking with things, he could cause another tear. You could say, well he wouldn't be able to, but his goal stated at the p.t conference was going to other dimensions.
So, if he somehow found himself in another dimension, again, he'd know not to frick with things.
If that was the case then they would be going around every universe broadcasting to every Spider-Man to not interfere in case they accidentally end up in another universe (like the caged villains and Insomniac Spider-Man), but they are completely fine with risking every Spider-Man ending up in another universe and preventing a canon event, including Miles, until they aren't for some reason so they tell Miles (even though they were fine not telling him up until then). What Miles did in India in trying to save everyone is what every Spider-Man would do if they ended up in another universe.
>but his goal stated at the p.t conference was going to other dimensions.
But I thought Miles wasn't a genius like Peter is and that's what made him original, why would he be able to invent dimension travel when he's more of an artist in the movies.
>What Miles did in India in trying to save everyone is what every Spider-Man would do if they ended up in another universe.
then they would get caught by the Spider society and told off.
>why would he be able to invent dimension travel when he's more of an artist in the movies.
does he not go to a prestigious science school and get good grades?
>then they would get caught by the Spider society and told off.
Like Miles was?
>does he not go to a prestigious science school and get good grades?
Yeah but why, I thought the movies were trying to distinguish him from Peter instead of making him Peter but black
>Like Miles was?
exactly? they catch people who go into different realities, they don't/can't prevent it.
>Yeah but why, I thought the movies were trying to distinguish him from Peter instead of making him Peter but black
So he can't be smart?
>exactly? they catch people who go into different realities, they don't/can't prevent it.
But it didn't work with Miles, why would it work with everyone else
>So he can't be smart?
So he can't be original?
>But it didn't work with Miles, why would it work with everyone else
Did you not remember the cages and ps4 spiderman?
>So he can't be original?
so ur just making false equivalencies now, ok.
>Did you not remember the cages and ps4 spiderman?
Why is the Miles the only one that can break out of those? Did they give everyone the canon event rundown and then put them into cages? PS4 Spider-Man looked surprisingly calm for someone who could've just heard captain Watanabe is going to die in his arms
>so ur just making false equivalencies now, ok.
How is it a false equivalence, making Miles a scientific genius is making him more like Peter, is it not?
Miles specifically asked to be sent home and Miguel refused. That's why Miguel was attacking the "Go Home Machine" when Miles was in it
miles didn't want to go anyways because he wanted to be with gween, he said it himself his goal was to get one of the clock thingies so he could visit gwen whenever he wants
remember everyone knows that miles is the original anomaly or whatever
>miles didn't want to go anyways because he wanted to be with gween, he said it himself his goal was to get one of the clock thingies so he could visit gwen whenever he wants
Why should Miguel give a shit what Miles wants, to Miguel Miles is a huge risk already, and instead of saying "frick you kid" and kicking him into a portal against his wishes to minimize the amount of interference Miles can cause, instead he basically gives him a rundown on how to cause the maximum amount of interference possible for some reason
This thread is hilarious because it’s literally Miguel arguing with Miles about canon and multiverse logic, proving the creators of the film right that these arguments were worth portraying.
Nah meta dogshit doesn't save you from shit writing this time
>fabricate problem
>don't provide enough information to solve it
>"woah dude there are arguments about this vague bullshit, we're awesome writers"
Why didn't they just write the movie without a problem where they give us all the information immediately? You're correct to sarcastically insult those brainlets.
Nah they should write a good Spider-Man movie and not a terrible one
>it is too late fans, we have already depicted you as the crying soijak Miguel and us as the coolheaded chad Miles, any further discussion of our writing is invalid!
this but unironically
na, this thread is just full of people making shit up, not paying attention to the movie, and thinking that their opinion is the ultimate unbreakable canon for a character.
That’s Miguel. He’s using preconceived notions to dictate how other characters should act. His mind will never be changed. He doesn’t have proof that Miles won’t be able to pull it off, just a bunch of fancy words said really angrily.
>writers seething their shit writing is being called out
lul
It's kind of like how the movie just makes shit up, doesn't pay attention to the character of Spider-Man, and thinks that its version of each character is the "real" one (MCU isn't 616, we are)
The only satisfying conclusion for this would be that Madame Web is just a b***h and is doing all of this for lols
Weird question but i just saw this thing, i don't buy funko pop but why does her funko look like this? i don't remember her having an avatar with long arms and pixel hair, she was just normal curvy black girl
Pretty sure her actual "self" looked like that.
i found her scenes on youtube and her normal self is wearing a hoodie
but now that i think about it, maybe the toys for these movies gets super early concept art i just remembered the first movie released this fricking abomination that makes peni look like a goblin and sp//dr looks like a mix between the comic version and the one in the movie
They did him so fricking dirty.
they just wanted another spiderman noir but fell on their fricking face.
>yfw Noir meets Ben Reilly in BTSV
Maybe it's just because I'm a Bengay but I feel like Noir was a joke character without being the joke like Ben is.
For Noir he was basically just an old timey character so he said old timey things and that was the joke, but they didn't dedicate stuff to making fun of him.
For Ben he's a 90s character so he's angsty (instead of being extreme/radical which would've been a better joke), and they do in fact have Ben angsty about painful memories and being the butt of that joke.
Plus the whole thing with ATSV character assassinating everyone on Miguel's side
no one gives a shit about ben anyway,
I thought his jokes were funny.
So was Gwen getting blacked for almost an entire year?
Other way around
>Aren't these glaring plot holes? Or am I missing something?
No, you're completely right but a lot of Anons don't want to admit the film's writing isn't the best.
>deviates from every single 'canon' point established in the movie
>his world doesn't collapse
Milesissies? our response?
I’m not really sure why they did the canon thing at all. The kids won’t get it and the old timers who actually get all the references know the canon thing is objectively untrue. I don’t get if they’re trying to deconstruct it or what, but what they’re deconstructing was never really a thing.
This movie is made for the people who want to pretend they read the comics without the effort of reading comics, they see the made up Spider-Man No More canon event with Hobie and think "whoaao true that's such a deep cut". The worst of all is it worked.
or Spectacular Peter watching Captain Stacy die. It is kinda weird knowing that like Captain Stacy's death only happens in like what, comics and uhhhh ASM?
Yeah it’s kind of dumb that they went with the Captain when clearly uncle Ben is the actual constant but Miles’s uncle already died last movie so there’s no tension there and his dad is a cop so I guess they had to do it that way to fit it all together.
The canon events thing is probably bullshit given it just looks like Spot's powers so most likely he is literally causing a Plot Hole.
I mean, the whole canon event thing in the movie is based on a theory and algorithm that Miguel treats as fact. So, there is room for doubt.
The doubt makes the movie worse
The two options, are canon events are real and the movie is full of plot holes, or they arent real and the spider society let people die because one guy said so
I guess Miguel's whole argument boils down to: if I'm wrong, is it worth the risk?
And if it was just him, thats an interesting story but they decided to make every spider-person ever, or at the very least a large proportion of them, culpable for his bullshit and guilty for those deaths by proxy. Its just fricked uo
Among the given sample size, is there any other Spiderman who actually would have agreed that we know of?
superior spiderman would've probably agreed.
I mean the entire society answerd the call to go get miles at a moments notice, some of them have to be operatives of his. If fricking Ben made the cut, as useless as he is in his portrayal, and Spider-punk, as untrustworthy as he is, surely others did too
yeah. I guess the mental workaround is that these are all the spider people who agree with Miguel, and anybody else was just sent home. IDK.
The Society recruited Spider-People specifically for the job of cleaning up the temporal anomalies and maintaining the multiverse. I imagine most recruits are inclined to agree with the "greater good" framing.
The movie is fricking moronic. They made it cause their still mad that people say Miles is shit. Also, modern writers hate canon. Because they're not as free to add their own shitty ideas as they'd like
Any long-time reader of Spider-Man would have become mind-broken from resets and whatever is considered canon a long time ago. This is nothing.
>Captain America gives a big gay speech in a solo run about freedom and independence
>In a event series she takes the side of totalitarian policies
They still have to follow canon to a certain extent. Or else their big event books they coom over make no fricking sense
>Or else their big event books they coom over make no fricking sense
Well they don’t, so…
Exactly, modern writers are shit at their job.
>villain literally gets more evil as he becomes blacker throughout the movie
based
This question is off topic, but what happens to a person who is born as the result of an inter-dimensional relationship?
An abomination before Spider-Jesus and must be obliterated
They went too big in the movie, the whole Spider society should have been 20 people max and have everyone from the first movie to make Miles feel left out. Miles fending off hundreds of spider-people make them all seem incompetent and Miles look like garry su, which I don't think he is. There was a spider-woman with a god damn hockey, I don't mind telling you lovely people i'm Canadian i love hockey, But I rolled my at that shit. Who was that for? not me. 20 spider-men maybe 3 or 4 original characters that's it.
It was because they were looking for an excuse to make CAMEO CENTRAL and 10 ten lists for OBSCURE SPIDER-MEN YOU DONT KNOW. Mind you that I do like Punk and Indian Spidey so it wasnt all too bad but like holy frick they didnt understand that the three comedy relief spider-men made it hard to flesh out characters given the movie's runtime. But holy FRICK they couldnt let go of the whole concept gag from the orignal where they kept introducing random Spideys for a quick joke.
>we could've had Infinity War Spider-Verse of the various Spider-Men teaming up to fight a multiversal threat with an ensemble cast and no clear protagonist
>instead we got Batman v Superman Spider-Verse that just inserts random characters into the story arbitrarily to hype up a shitty forced conflict between the good guys and makes them all look like idiots
And all to prop up Miles and "dunk" on his haters, it's so tiresome. Bendis was a mistake.
>CIA
bravo
so is the only consequence of universe tampering preventing events, or does that also apply to objects? More specifically, did spiderman noir get in trouble for taking the rubiks cube?
There's a threshold after which the canon gets disrupted. Lyla specifically warns Miguel that Renaissance Vulture can't be allowed to escape the museum for example, because then the disturbance will be too great.
>the actual Miguel makes the same excuse of "blahblah its established history, you can't change it"
>the ACTUAL Peter tells him to stop being such a silly c**t and that being Spider-Man means you don't watch someone die in front of you and do nothing about it, no matter what time or place you find yourself in
I just saw the movie for the first time an hour ago.
Yeah you missed it.
>Why did 2099 tell Miles about the canon in the first place?
A preface as to why Miles is going have to be trapped in place until his dad dies. And why Indi-Spiderman's universe is in trouble because of Miles and NOT Spot.
>Why in the world would anyone think Miles would be okay with his dad being killed?
No one thought it was going to be okay. That's literally why a team of 20+ Spiderman showed up to confirm 2099's thinking and surround Miles. On one half, it's to show Miles that everyone has agreed to it, on the other, it's to make sure Miles stays trapped.
>And more egregiously, if the canon is that the police captain has to die, then why not just get Miles's dad fired?
Again, you just saved the dad and caused the universe to collapse. The dad "has" to die. Doesn't matter if he is captain or not.
>I guess Gwen is fine with her dad being killed
In the intro of the movie, Gwen's canon event is Peter Parker being killed, not her father. You just completely missed the point and set up of the whole premise.
There are things to scratch your head about in the movie. Like, how the computer wizard spidergirl felt compassion to help Miles so suddenly. Or what even describes a "canon" event or why the AI is so powerful at predicting canon events or models. But you didn't land on them.
>Doesn't matter if he is captain or not.
they do state specifically that a police captain that is close to Spiderman dying is a canon event. Everything else I pretty much agree with.
>In the intro of the movie, Gwen's canon event is Peter Parker being killed, not her father. You just completely missed the point and set up of the whole premise.
When did they say you get only get one?
"Uncle ben" moment and "captain dies" moment are shown in the plot as 2 seperate events, the rules sont make fricking sense.
So we're back to this anons dilemma
>Why did 2099 tell Miles about the canon in the first place?
If you were paying attention to the movie this legit shouldn’t be a question.
There ARE plot holes in the movie, just not what you mentioned.
>Why did 2099 tell Miles about the canon in the first place? Why in the world would anyone think Miles would be okay with his dad being killed?
You have to remember that Miguel told Miles about the canon events because interfered with Pav's. No one except Miles knew about his dad dying in the future until he revealed it after learning about the captain death canon event, Miguel was also trying to be reasonable with Miles up until he announced his intentions to interfere with another canon event again.
>And more egregiously, if the canon is that the police captain has to die, then why not just get Miles's dad fired? I guess Gwen is fine with her dad being killed, but it's portrayed as a solution that he decides arbitrarily to quit his job... What?
Might be a hint that Miguel is wrong about the canon events thing, after all this is all based on his algorithm.