I think it's time we admit to ourselves that Krakoa was shit, 5 years of grifting us into thinking there would be a big epic story revealing all the dirty shit Xavier and Moira had done only to get 5 years of mutants having parties and orgies and having no-stakes battles due to instant resurrection. Could it have been good? Maybe if hackman hadn't run off and abandoned all his plans but as it is it just devolved into a bunch of thinly veild woke propaganda. I told myself for years that it would get better, I read the titles out of obligation to keep up, but in the end it all felt hollow. Krakoa had no soul left, you could tell even before Hickman abandoned it. It was a bandwagon and a hype train and now all that's left are the twitter woketards crying over the loss of their liberal paradise island.
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Wut? It was clearly hopeless after HoxPox and they were letting anyone with a pulse write one of the way too many books. Anyone who subjected themselves to the Krakoa era past that point was just a masochist.
Aw, sad that people didn't reply to your other thread
homosexual energy: the post
Look I don't need to read your post but ain't nobody was pretending this whole era wasn't anything but a steaming pile of garbage. Least not here anyways.
Cinemaphile turning on any good thing to come along is pathetic.
>Krakoa
>Good
pick one
Jonathan don't you have something better to do
krakoa was the last nail in the coffin of the xmen as we knew them
its hickman fanfiction that butchered the identities and foundations of the xmen bc he wanted to write a standalone sci fi story but knew no one would read it so he did it w xmen as bait
theres nothing connecting them to what they were but the name and likeness
all sorts of shit happened over the years but i can geniunely say that this has killed my entire interest in xmen in a way that AvX in whole and that dogshit ending alongside the travesty of IvX couldnt
if id known that when i started reading this w snowman bobby that xmen would end up w stuff like logan, cyclops, and jean having orgies on a death island bc hickman decided his fanfic was better than the story itself i never would have started
at this point, ever getting into dc and marvel was mistake. i never should have cared about this stuff the way i did. just a big joke and i let myself make this precious to my childhood
you're so mad about fictional characters its unreal. don't fricking worry the x-men will be back to punching sentinels soon. and if you don't like those comics watch X-Men 97. this isn't some grand existential problem
this exact sentiment in your comment is why this whole thing was a waste of time
people who dont care arriving to something that matters to people and had mattered to them for decades, then participating in its destruction, and finally telling the people who cared that the destruction doesnt matter bc *they* never cared anyway
like i said, i dont read comics or consume any comic related media anymore
i just come here to see how the graveyard is doing
enjoy your stories that dont matter, im sure its awesome that you dont care so much
>reddit spacing
That explains your homosexual long ass post
I didn’t read by the way
wow thats a really awesome and edgy attitude
you're a real rebel and so different
All the threads with the storytime by that x homosexual all said how good it was and how they hate that krakoa is going away
>being so moronic you did not jump ship when Hickman did
If you could not tell this was sinking and that Editorial wanted to milk the Krakoa era you have only yourself to blame
>Actually even getting on the ship in the first place.
X-men have been a lost cause for ages now.
Krakoa always confused me since Hickman clearly was going for a dystopia but basically everyone else went "Finally the X-Men are winning!" even if they're comically evil
Inflammatory but I've only seen the era praised by people who used as some unhealthy racial revenge fantasy or the equivalent for however they see mutants. Did I miss something?
Gillen, Ewing, Wells, Spurrier, LaVallle, Ayala and even Percy regardless of execution, acknowledged Krakoa as pretty messed up.
Duggan is the major writer I can think of that doesn't seem to question it.
Gillen and LaValle were the only ones who pointed out and shown fundamental and structural problems with Krakoa, the rest’s criticisms amounted to “a few bad apples”, very disappointed with Ewing and Spuirrer’s “criticisms”.
Ewing does get critical of the seperationist principles of Krakoa, but admittedly is preoccupied more with Arakko.
Meanwhile while I'm not big on Spuirrer's writing, he does deconstruct the impact of resseruction on Krakoa's culture and brings up consequences for 'Make More Mutants'. Legion even calls out what happened with Sabertooth was kind of fricked up.
Wells and Ayala criticise the way clones get treated while Hellions highlights the lack of support for reforming the small-name villains and is one of the few titles to bring up Krakoa's blanket anti-A.I hostility. Meanwhile Ayala's run on New Mutants brings up issues with the Cruicable as well as actually tackles the 'What if I don't want to embrace my Mutant Powers because they harm me' that X-Men stories always side-step.
Percy's X-Force is meant to be pretty fricked up. It may not be thoughtful critique but Hank is one of the most openly bankrupt depicted characters and the tolerance of his antics is highlighted and treated as bad.
I think one of the issues is that there's no central editorial to bring all these issues together in one big denouncement. Enigma at least pays off the issue of building Krakoa off Sinister's work, but Orchis takes up space in Krakoa's downfall that would be better served by Krakoa's structural issues causing collapse.
Anon you're one of the few I believe read and understood everything happening in those books
Absolutely. From all the things Hickman set up early on, and what he's said on podcasts and interviews and so on, it was clear Krakoa was gonna fall, fall hard, and fall soon, under the weight of its own flaws. Then the status quo would go somewhere else, possibly into space with all the importance the Shi'ar had in HOXPOX and the early books.
But then, even though he said in early interviews "I'll extend each act as needed but when the time comes to move to the next one I'll put down my foot and make them do it", the time came and he didn't put down his foot, instead he bailed.
I don't know if to blame him for being a pussy, or blame all the shitty writers who wouldn't let go of their new playground.
Both I think.
Still, I'm satisfied with at least the Gillen/Ewing/Spurrier side of things. That stayed interesting, unlike fricking Duggan.
I guess? I won't lie that I'm mostly confused by seeing posts online about "As a queer person of color, Krakoa was so empowering as representation because..." meanwhile I look at the actual books where you have an ethnostate/sex cult funneling drugs into countries, abandoned babies everywhere, and going on about how soon humanity will collapse and they can finally take over. Straight up looney stuff. Sometimes I see support because at least it's not another mutant genocide plot but it's still pretty bad.
I think something's wrong with the X-Men if my takeaway while reading them is they deserve worse to happen to them
where and how were these people represented? that terrible new mutants run? or the shitty cota?
these people pick pretty panels and base their whole lives around it
What’s funny is that while most people read the Krakoa era as an allegory for oppressed minorities, I read it as an allegory for the ruling class. They are isolated in their island, pulling the strings, running both sides of the drug trade and influencing geopolitics all while hating the poors.
It’s called operating like any other country
>"As a queer person of color, Krakoa was so empowering as representation because..." meanwhile I look at the actual books where you have an ethnostate/sex cult funneling drugs into countries, abandoned babies everywhere, and going on about how soon humanity will collapse and they can finally take over. Straight
That's exactly what the LGBTQ activists writing these books want to happen
>but basically everyone else went "Finally the X-Men are winning!" even if they're comically evil
The average reader is a giant fricking moron. Throw in all the different flavours of homosexuals who use the mutants as a power fantasy, and its no surprise everyone drank the cool aid instead of recognizing how fricked up it was.
The orgies
They better show what happens to those giant bays filled with babies created from the orgies. I think they said somewhere that female mutants on Krakoa were demanded by law to get pregnant to get the population growing so there's gonna be a ton of babies over there.
That’s what they make Arby’s out of
They better show the orgies.
Krakoa is over. There's no more orgies.
Damn
>no more orgies
Marvel editor here. You've given me a great idea for the next Scarlet Witch event
>Actually I said no, more orgies
Well congrats now we have to make Earth-6969 the Orgyverse or something
Hickman only started singing that song when he realized he was gonna get kicked off. He never fricking intended that and claiming otherwise was him coping and seething over his sour grapes since he was no longer getting to drive the yacht and get all the praise.
>yet another krakoa seethe thread crying about le woke
KWAB
>muh woke propoganda
You stupid dumbshit goddamn snowflake
an x-book event that didn't mean shit? color me surprised
Hackman's ending would have been stupid. Dugan was comparably stupid. Gillen was good.
Clearly went downhill around X of Swords, it was obvious Marvel was milking Hickman's concept dry. Some people, like Gillen and Ewing, were able to tell quality stories within the Krakoa status quo. Most failed hard.
They should have just let Hickman do his thing.
Krakoa was great. Hickman's vision was bold, fresh and exciting. He should've been left to tell his story free from mandate editorial oversight. Gillen and Ewing produced some of their best work and really thrived in the Krakoan era. You feel if Hickman had stayed on, the three of them could've produced generational defining works for the X-Men. Unfortunately I don't think Duggen grasped the concept, so rewarding him with the flagship book deffo sucked.
They brought in Gillen to right the ship because Duggan was doing nothing with what he was left
You could tell Hickman had plans in mind that didn't account for Marvel to kowtow to a bunch of twitter tourist who completely missed that Krakoa was actually not supposed to be seen as a good thing and now we're stuck with a bunch of X-Men gleefully murdering when even the Avengers are subduing Orchis non-lethally
Kitty gets to be rewarded with her own team when she should be going to jail for her body count
Krakoa is/was shit, Hackman is a moron and you're a homosexual, even if he finished the story krakoa would've still be shit
>and having no-stakes battles due to instant resurrection.
As opposed to no-stakes battles because no one stays dead in Marvel. At least in-universe resurrection made writers have to think a little bit more beyond fake killing a character who'd be back in 3 months.
Concept was fine, execution was terrible because Hickman was never interested in the new status quo and more interested in his le epic AI and whatever the frick he wanted to do with massive retcons. And I’ve been saying this since day one when everyone else was going OMG GET ON THE HYPETRAIN LET’S GOOOOOOOOO
In Hickmen's defense, a lot of the OOC shit was suppose to be bad and end but every side writer played it straight like Mutants were suppose to be write. Plus he wanted to end Krakoa in Inferno but every writer besides himself and editorial refused. It was presented as them still having stories to finish but we all know it was to milk krakoa until the sales fell.
>but every side writer played it straight
Including Hickman who never made it explicit that everything was meant to be seen as intentionally off because Hickman was too busy making grandiose speeches and establishing shit no other writer was that interested in developing further, like the summoner crap and basically everything about Arrakko. So it just came off weird, like it was a cult where everyone drank the brainwashing juice together.
So I read every issue of every X book starting at HoX-PoX through the end of Reign before I just couldn’t take it anymore…was there ever an explanation for why all of the characters in the line randomly started acting like totally different people, or is it just shitty writing? I kept waiting for there to be some explanation where the real X-Men were tied up in someone’s basement or something, but it never happened. It was just “we have our own island now so we have all suddenly decided to become racial supremacists”
"Great men who do bad shit for the greater good because morality and ethics are for the stupid rabble" is the only story Hickman can tell. He did it with Time Runs Out, he did with X-Men, he's doing it again with Ultimates.
Everything Arrako related back then happened because Tini Howard is apparently a sex goddess who was draining Hickman's balls regularly which is why that shit interrupted and killed Krakoa's momentum in tandem with covid.
>In Hickmen's defense, a lot of the OOC shit was suppose to be bad and end but every side writer played it straight like Mutants were suppose to be write. Plus he wanted to end Krakoa in Inferno but every writer besides himself and editorial refused. It was presented as them still having stories to finish but we all know it was to milk krakoa until the sales fell.
Source: I made it fricking up. Hickman has said NOTHING about his actual plans, he's still under an NDA and all those theories are speculation.
>redditor: UMM source??
>
Maybe I'm just stupid but the moment House of X had what looked like a Nuremberg Rally on Krakoa I figured it was a dystopia. But then every fricking reader started saying how amazing it was that the X-Men were "winning" and then we started getting titles that fully went with that narrative. I don't know what fricking happened, did they change the plans or are people just projecting?
Unironically, projection. A lot of the X-men's narrative is beyond easy to see yourself in as someone marginalized and hated by the "normals" of society, which yes is the point but a loud subset of fans take it way too far. So the period of the X-men's story during the 00's and '10's which was notable for all the visible setbacks for the X-men's cause of mutant integration as well as faux-genocides (I call them faux-genocides cause we know Marvel will never permanently kill off an entire line of marketable supers and villains just for an event, but trillions of faceless background npcs can easily get ground up no issue), so they see the X-men being in a position of power as a "win" no matter how poisoned the chalice they drink is. So, yes. Unironically, when they see the people living on psychic vampire island being able to threaten normal people with impunity as long as they don't act on it, being able to flout international authority whenever they want, and being able to live a polyamorous communist lifestyle where the very ground you walk on satisfies whatever needs you have while ALSO having superpowers that guarantees you a spot at the table when your people inevitably take over the planet...they're not just seeing the X-men "winning", they're seeing themselves being part of the winning team. They aren't seeing a group of very dangerous, deluded people messing with forces beyond their control and trusting in people who have far more power and cruelty than they suspect just for the privilege of living in a gilded gated community, they're just seeing their self-inserts being on top of the pile, and they're satisfied with that.
And yes, it's fricking nuts that they willingly ignored all the narrative signs of it being a false paradise built on the shakiest foundation. But then, that's the X-men diehards for you. I think most everyone was just baffled this shit was going on as long as it did without one of the X-men saying "Guys, we need to stop."
A big problem is that human/mutant integration is constantly discredited because cyberpunk lunatics or giant robots showing up to the school are one of the X-men writers' go-to storylines.
My main counterpoints to that are
a) That's cause ever since Days of Future Past, people have become obsessed with keeping the X-men as the perpetual underdogs when compared to humanity, so until they're ready to shed that then there's no point in going into the actual feasibility of human/mutant intergration
and b) Going by what I've read, the United States and Canada are the only nations that are this fanatical about mutant murder. Britain used to be pretty cool with its superhumans including mutants, and as far as I know Europe and Asia are pretty neutral on mutants beyond what they could do for their various countries.
The bizarre thing is that Hickman EXPLAINS that Krakoa is GOING TO FAIL in HoxPoX in the text pages but like fricking HALF of the other Krakoa writers didn't even read these or just put their hands over their ears and went LA LA LA LA MUTANT PARADISE MUTANT AND PROUD. It was fricking spelled out in the first fricking arc. And without it being revealed as a false utopia it is pointless.
Shit like that convinces me that they should have just done this as yet another alternate universe instead of the mainline X-men. They'd probably have gotten the point that shit was imperfect easier.
Unironically, those other futures I think are far more interesting to begin with. And I don't mean cause the mutants are dead, more cause we've already seen what kind of future the mutants intend for the rest of humanity, so seeing the symbiotes trying to create a universal peace is actually new and interesting.
Three or four comics out of fricking thirty plus were even remotely interesting. That's not a good track record.
>Shit like that convinces me that they should have just done this as yet another alternate universe instead of the mainline X-men. They'd probably have gotten the point that shit was imperfect easier.
Unironically this. Like how the frick are they walking back on this? Storm is apparently gonna be a politician in the US after the relaunch, that's a big fricking step from her going "FRICK HUMANS WE CAN DO ANYTHING WE WANT" constantly on Krakoa and threatening anybody with bodily harm who disagreed. has any of the core X-Men even shown any remorse for how fricked-up insular they became? They used to have dozens of human friends, not a single one of whom has been referenced during Krakoa except Moira who got retconned into an ubermutant and then turned into a villain.
>Unironically this. Like how the frick are they walking back on this?
Normally. The same way they walked back on Iron Man with The Crossing, Peter Parker and his marriage, and everything else. You don't have to be hysterical about it
Kill the X-Men off and replace them with younger versions happened already though.
It depends. If they retcon out the entire era save a few elements, they absolutely can walk it back. Otherwise, with how far of a 180 the X-men took, that's the kind of narrative-defining moment that's not gonna being walked back. It'll be generally ignored so the story can keep functioning, that's for sure, since at the end of the day they're superheroes who punch out the bad guys. But that shit's gonna be like Pym's slap of Janet or Peter selling his marriage to the devil. It's never gonna be forgotten. Ever.
But that's if they're fricking moronic and actually keep all that shit canon. Cause yeah, finding out that the X-men had planned (and barely stopped) Sinister from using Covid vaccinations to transform humanity into thralls of a genocidal mutant empire is the kind of shit that justifies every future instance of someone acting paranoid around the X-men. Ever.
Jesus are you people moronic? They're not retconning anything. Krakoa is basically already over, the X-men are chilling out in the US. There's not gonna be a fricking retcon. It's affected every ancillary title in the MU so a retcon would literally rip apart every single title down to Ms Marvel.
>It's affected every ancillary title in the MU so a retcon would literally rip apart every single title down to Ms Marvel.
Not really. Most of the books didn't actually touch on any of the Krakoa shit beyond "Dude, the mutants are acting weird again". I'm sure Dr Strange, Thor and Venom couldn't give a frick if reality shits itself yet again and the mutant nation that used to be there suddenly wasn't.
There was that shit with Reed Richards son joining the Mutie cult. That was kind of a big deal that went nowhere
I think you mean go back on some elements. I highly doubt they will go "Krakoa never happened". Even if that would be the best option right now. Just rewind everything back to just before HoX
>Storm is apparently gonna be a politician in the US after the relaunch, that's a big fricking step from her going "FRICK HUMANS WE CAN DO ANYTHING WE WANT" constantly on Krakoa and threatening anybody with bodily harm who disagreed
So you’re upset because it’s different? Storm was dealing with a culture where everything is just about combat on Arakko, and otherwise stating that with their own nation mutants don’t just have to bow down to whatever whims humans have when it comes to mutants
>has any of the core X-Men even shown any remorse for how fricked-up insular they became?
Wolverine has complained about it from the start.
>They used to have dozens of human friends, not a single one of whom has been referenced during Krakoa except Moira who got retconned into an ubermutant and then turned into a villain.
Wrong. Northstar’s husband lives on Krakoa. Kingpin was living on the island. And what human characters would you need to move there to be happy? And what should they do on the island? Just go wow this is great, here’s my mandatory cameos because I don’t actually have anything to do in terms of plot?
>Wolverine has complained about it from the start.
And done frick all about it. Same as Cyclops. Despite all their complaining about what the Council does, the both of them still stuck around for Kakoa and acted as the government's good little stooges, still talking shit to all their former allies, still snidely commenting how mutants are going to take over the world while regular humanity dies out, and still have the gall to act shocked when not only does Krakoa fall the frick apart but get angry and upset that very few humans give a shit after all the time they and everyone else has spent telling the humans to leave them the frick alone.
>Magneto and Apocalypse actually fight for you on the front lines when genocidal bigots arrive at your door.
Dude, they're more than likely responsible for the genocidal bigots arriving at my front door. And I'm not even talking about the racist rednecks, I mean their insane followers trying to cull all the mutants that aren't falling in line under their banner. Frick those two.
>And done frick all about it.
Exactly what could he do? He isn’t in the council making decisions and wouldn’t want to be
>Despite all their complaining about what the Council does, the both of them still stuck around for Kakoa and acted as the government's good little stooges
So the only correct choice it to turn your back and let Orchis commit genocide to make a moral point?
>still talking shit to all their former allies
What?
>still snidely commenting how mutants are going to take over the world while regular humanity dies out
It’s the truth, humans will have mutant children. So what. Krakoa isn’t about conquering the world.
>and still have the gall to act shocked when not only does Krakoa fall the frick apart but get angry and upset that very few humans give a shit after all the time they and everyone else has spent telling the humans to leave them the frick alone.
Motherfricker Orchis was set to eradicate mutants since day one of Krakoa and all Krakoa did was assert its right to be a new sovereign nation in the world while offering humanity numerous incredible resources benefiting them in exchange of just being allowed to exist.
>Exactly what could he do?
Investigated the Council's secrets? Tried to convince his friends on said council that there's extra shady shit going on? Use his connections in X-Force to get Sage to see what's under the hood? Fricking...leave if he smelled something horrible was up? Maybe get together his own team of mutants to protect Krakoa WITHOUT being completely beholden to them? Fricking anything but work for the goddamn CIA to continue to cover up Krakoa's crimes and just turn a blind eye to shit he CLEARLY DOESN'T TRUST!
>So the only correct choice it to turn your back and let Orchis commit genocide to make a moral point?
God, that is beyond asinine. The idea that it's some kind of black and white narrative where the X-men have to either work for clearly evil bastards or just accept genocide is how shitty storylines like this exist, so frick you and everything else that you've ever said.
With what authority? They should do what, overthrow the council? Then what? You’re basically advocating treason when you try to undermine the governing body. And they know the council is full of schemers, they know it’s a necessary compromise to make the place work. They also trust the good guys to keep the bad ones in check.
And exactly what does leaving accomplish? It’s an empty gesture.
Scott’s New York team was them operating independently as much as possible.
Just saying, if Wolverine genuinely gave as much of a shit that Krakoa was rotten at its core, he can and would have done any number of things besides just stayed in his lane like a good little lapdog. The fact you're trying to excuse piss-poor writing like this with effectively "But that's just how the plot is supposed to work" means we have nothing to discuss, so piss off.
>With what authority?
None, he just fricking leaves and convinces anyone else willing to listen to leave.
They should do what, overthrow the council?
Confront them with their bullshit and let them know he's tapping out because of it.
>And they know the council is full of schemers, they know it’s a necessary compromise to make the place work.
Which at best, makes them weaklings that compromised common sense by leaving a bunch of evil people in charge of their nation, and at worst, one hundred percent complicit in the actions authorized, explicitly or implicitly, by the council, either way, they're not coming out looking good for any of other by sticking around.
>They also trust the good guys to keep the bad ones in check.
What good guys? The X-Men have been going to bat for evil mutants for a while now. That's like asking corrupt cops to discipline other corrupt cops, they're all dirty.
for any of other reason by sticking around.*
>Confront them with their bullshit and let them know he's tapping out because of it.
So literally just do moral posturing and effect no change. Come on, dude.
>Which at best, makes them weaklings that compromised common sense by leaving a bunch of evil people in charge of their nation, and at worst, one hundred percent complicit in the actions authorized, explicitly or implicitly, by the council, either way, they're not coming out looking good for any of other by sticking around.
That’s every government that’s run with any kind of democratic system. There is no ruling entity where everyone is a good guy.
I'm pretty sure that if your nation is ruled by at least four different mutant hitlers, you've lost the right to compare yourself to a democracy
They do vote democratically in the council. And everyone has a clean slate. That was part of the great compromise.
Unless your Victor Creed.
Wasn't he killing humans on his first job the Krakoa bosses gave him?
Before it was illegal to kill humans. It was super hamfisted way to establish a plot point.
He committed murder in America, it was absolutely illegal and he did it anyway.
They should have let the American prison system handle him then. What they did was wrong.
After he'd done it, they went all in on pressuring the UN into granting amnesty and diplomatic immunity to all mutants. But the entire argument that Sabretooth killed some people and it "wasn't even a crime yet" is moronic, he didn't do it on Krakoa.
They charged him with breaking a law that didn't exist yet in their country when he committed it. And then they let Beast assassinate a bunch of people and allowed him to go free after he was found out.
>all the x-men have murdered a bunch of people
Long-running superhero comics were a mistake. Canon was a mistake. Because you have to accept all the bad stories and the edgelord shit and the dumb fricking status quo changes until your whole franchise is just a cesspool of shit that you HAVE to acknowledge
>Comics are for morons
"Anti-canon" takes are all pretty silly. Canon gives stories value and is nearly impossible to remove since it's just cause & effect. The closest you could get is turning everything into cereal mascots, which people I'd disagree with already think they are, where everything exists in a bubble.
What you're talking about isn't even limited to comics and is clearly just you being mad about things you don't like.
Just another one of those “because plot” things that Hickman just wanted you to accept without bothering to have anyone in-story question it like they naturally would/should have.
It was pretty clearly the biggest red-flag planted to signal Krakoa's shady-ness. Emma makes a big deal about liberating Sabertooth from a human court where he has a legal defense because it couldn't possibly be fair on mutants, only to dump him on trial with none where they make up the law on the spot.
If anything it's weird that it took a new comer like LaValle to do anything with it, it feels like it should have been a much bigger plotline for the era.
Same could be said of the Mystique/Destiny plot line that was being teased, and no real explanation given as to why she had to get a council seat.
OTOH the Sabretooth books were some of the best of the era because they were literally about "frick Krakoa"
>So literally just do moral posturing and effect no change. Come on, dude.
To match all the ineffectual, useless b***hing that he was doing to make it seem like he was the only sane person on the island, despite the fact that he was the most obedient attack dog they had.
>That’s every government that’s run with any kind of democratic system. There is no ruling entity where everyone is a good guy.
Doesn't fricking matter, they were trying to make them come off as the person questioning the legitimacy of the people in charge, then that was dropped almost immediately and he became another loyal goon of the state to do their bidding while he internally monologued about how he may have had some misgivings, while outwardly extolling the country's virtues and killing anyone they pointed their fingers at, so frick any kind of personal misgivings about these evil people I guess, he'd do as they say regardless.
Wolverine is a cog in the machine. Not a revolutionary or a leader. That’s his entire thing
>Exactly what could he do?
Leave? Wolverine is the poster boy of having his cake while eating it, too. He b***hed, moaned, complained, talked about having misgivings, but like their good little foot soldier, he stuck around and kept parroting the same messages as his peers and was living it up in the same place he kept complaining about, with the same people he kept complaining about.
>So the only correct choice it to turn your back and let Orchis commit genocide to make a moral point?
Fricking tell everybody else that something didn't smell right? Try to put his money where his mouth was and try to uncover the nasty shit Krakoa was up to? Try to, I dunno, bite back at the evil people in charge with some actual teeth rather than being a pitbull to be sicc'd on the people they didn't like?
>What?
Not verbatim, but his response to She-Hulk when she made a comment that the mutants were being a bunch of weirdoes was this:
>"You Avengers are a buncha celebrities, you get the best treatment (despite the fact that I was only on the Avengers becauseI was a celebrity), mutants finally get their own ethnostate and are way better off than before, blah blah blah you're all jealous, shut up, we're not being weird."
>while offering humanity numerous incredible resources benefiting them in exchange of just being allowed to exist.
>for complete and utter diplomatic immunity while they put their gates all over the place, even in places that specifically told them 'no' also Emma was actively fricking with the minds of diplomats anyways, so it was a pointless gesture anyways*
>And done frick all about it.
Logan actually left Krakoa and struck out on his own in #35 of his solo series, anon. He was fed-up with the Quiet Council's crimes (such as allowing Beast to go full Henry Kissinger and pardoning child predators). In #32 he practically told the Council to go frick themselves, and in #30 of X-Force he told the island of Krakoa itself much the same.
And then he immediately came back to X-Force once he heard about Beast and basically stayed with X-Force on Krakoa like he was glued at the hip until the Fall of X event.
>And then he immediately came back to X-Force once he heard about Beast
That's not what happened. He didn't rejoin X-Force until after the nation of Krakoa was destroyed by ORCHIS, and mutants were being slaughtered in the streets. He likes his people, he just doesn't like Krakoa.
>Three or four comics out of fricking thirty plus were even remotely interesting. That's not a good track record.
That's your opinion, and that's okay, I liked much much more.
The only thing that we can all agree on is that Tini Howard sucked. Literally
>Symbiotes are less evil that mutants
Damn
Exactly. To be fair, they don't care if you're human, mutant, or alien, they accept everyone...and their delicious brains.
I still prefer symbiotes. Mutants are c**ts.
Having every single title to THIS PROJECT IS DOOMED isn’t good writing.
The balance was off. You have to a few titles that are unambiguously pro-Krakoa or the false utopia begins to feel pointless, but the way it actually played out didn't put enough emphasis on the rot.
I'd love to see a deep-dive into what went on behind the scenes in this era. Individual writers are hard to blame because it's their job to tell good stories on their own titles, not to kowtow to a larger meta-narrative. That's editorial, and they're shit, but it must be hard to ignore the fact that the X-Men are bold and creative and exciting again just as the film rights debacle is wrapping up. And Hickman is a great ideas guy but he's never proven capable of putting a satisfying cap on his project.
Krakoa as a false promise was a great hook but all the incentives pushed them to delay delay delay the reveal until the entire thing fell apart.
>but the way it actually played out didn't put enough emphasis on the rot.
And that is Hickman’s fault who didn’t bother to do it properly, as we can see by horribly hamfisted and awkward his attempts were and how nobody in his comics ever comments on shit when he intended them to be weird.
He was the architect and show runner giving each book the basic beats they had to cover as they built the story for the next phase. But rather than get any kind of proper Krakoa has issues messaging he was busy building up his sword crossover and creating Arakko that was completely misguided.
Oh yeah. It's the big thing. Hickman wanted it to be this unnerving dystopia, where similar to Gaiman's Miracleman/Huxley's dystopias, it would look shiney but have a rot beneath its surface. However, he neglects to have characters who should know better actually react to it.
Scott sees Exodus lecturing a bunch of kids about how Scarlet Witch is totally the devil and to blame for their problems... and instead of commenting, reacting to or presenting it as a problem, he just walks away, never mentioning it again.
The X-Men on the council, rather than being disturbed at the people they're working with, go along with everything being said. Kurt, Kitty, Storm, Jean etc just go along with ideas like the Pit and Crucible. Wolverine shares beer with Gorgon a man he despised. The list goes on and on.
In one issue, Way of X managed to make the rot more evident and have the characters actually react to that rot.
How would you even go about that? Krakoa is so much the opposite of what the X-Men are supposed to be that I'm not sure you could do it without everyone being out of character
Honestly? I don't think Krakoa as it was really works for X-Men as a whole status quo. The only time it even came close to being believe as a status quo was Immortal were the X-Men characters clearly loathed this status quo and were only going along with it, so that the villains in the Quiet Council couldn't corrupt Krakoa.
Overthinking corporate comics is a sign of mental moronation
>when they see the people living on psychic vampire island
When the island is full Krakoa has to feed so little nobody even notices. The island itself is a mutant.
>being able to threaten normal people
They weren’t any more than other nations.
>being able to flout international authority whenever they want
Just like any sovereign nation with leverage.
>and being able to live a polyamorous communist lifestyle
So for once mutants are allowed to just enjoy life rather than be afraid the government was going to kick down the door and send you to a concentration camp if the killer robots didn’t just bomb your house. Boo-hoo.
>while ALSO having superpowers that guarantees you a spot at the table when your people inevitably take over the planet.
About as much as your average human has a seat at the table when they ran the world.
>they're not just seeing the X-men "winning", they're seeing themselves being part of the winning team.
Having a status quo where they aren’t being actively massacred is a nice change, yes.
>They aren't seeing a group of very dangerous, deluded people
Opposed to humans of dangerous, paranoid people constantly scheming genocide?
>messing with forces beyond their control
WTF does this even mean?
>and trusting in people who have far more power and cruelty than they suspect just for the privilege of living in a gilded gated community
How is this any different from people living in America? Supposedly the greatest country in the world yet in truth it’s a capitalist hellhole where men’s life expectancy is going down, maternal deaths are high, income disparity is so bad the country is no longer a real democracy but an oligarchy, etc.
>And yes, it's fricking nuts that they willingly ignored all the narrative signs of it being a false paradise built on the shakiest foundation.
Because it was badly established even by Hickman themselves and yes eventually it became clearer but so what?
>How is this any different from people living in America?
Dunno about you man, but I'd sooner choose either Cheeto Man or Sleepy Joe over Apocalypse or Magneto as the man in charge of my well being
Magneto and Apocalypse actually fight for you on the front lines when genocidal bigots arrive at your door.
Take your PrEP, homosexual.
tbh I think the X-Men have been going in a bad direction ever since M-Day with a few bright spots. You could rationalize them going militant and isolationist at the time but after awhile it becomes hard to root for them. Krakoa is the logical endpoint of their way of thinking.
IMO one of the biggest mistakes the brand ever did was make the "next stage of evolution" a legitimate thing rather than an in-universe conspiracy theory. Both because the X-gene is so old you think it would've by now, we've seen mutants have non-mutant kids, and it carries questionable implications with mutants as an allegory for any minority group (which I think people get too carried with). It basically morphs the X-Men into this weird flavor of supremacist where the only difference between them and the Brotherhood is if baseline humans are worth killing or not.
To be fair, going by the number of time-travelers and track record of possible futures connected to Earth 616, the whole "next stage of evolution" is still 100% theoretical. In almost every bad end timeline, like the ones The Maeostro and All-Father Ultron come from, the mutants have as much chance as the other heroes of surviving, that is to say zero. In neutral timelines like 2099 or Marvel 2, the mutants are still a minority group on the planet. And even in the timelines where humanity makes something of itself, it's generally humans and machines working to uplift themselves while the mutants are kind of either forgotten or too busy doing their own thing to bother. Seriously, when you actually look at the track record as far as visions of the future go outside of the Moira timelines (which are a confusing mess all their own), the mutants are usually the ones left in the evolutionary dust while someone else gets to be king of shit mountain.
Some AU futures have even shown mutants to have gone extinct or become a marginal group with mutates taking over, or aliens, or robots. Or even fricking symbiotes.
Yeah, exactly, which is why I think it's fricking asinine whenever the X-Men of all people spout nonsense about it. Villains thinking it as a bad/good thing makes sense but the X-Men should still see themselves as human. They should understand better from all they've seen.
Plus like I pointed out, it has implications I don't think should be there when we also look at mutants as allegories for any real world minority groups. Are black people "the next stage of evolution"? Are gay people "the next stage of evolution"?
I'm glad others also notice the same issues I've had with modern X-Men. I could never decide if it started with the movies or Morrison or post-M-Day in general but somewhere along the line all the wires got crossed and I have no idea what I'm looking at anymore. I was never good at diving into the X-Men fandom so I never had a pulse on what people were thinking.
I think the X-Men are easy to fix but I'm not sure if people will spin it as trying to make them "apolitical" rather than untangling the wires. It'd be so simple to sort out.
I believe the wires got crossed when new writers came along and looked back at Claremont building this franchise up from literal nothing into marvel's most profitable property and merchandising engine. They looked at Claremont's run and saw the Dark Phoenix Saga, the Mutant Massacre, Inferno, Days of Future Past. They looked back and saw time travel, aliens, alternate futures, demons, killer cyborgs.
What they evidently did not see or dismissed as unimportant was the fact that none of those things were what made Claremont's run special. EVERY superhero comic has those elements.The Avengers also do the same alternate future, robot, demon, alien stuff during the same period and it goes back to the silver age. Instead I am 100% convinced the most important part of Claremont's contribution is an almost frightening level of consistency where character development is ALWAYS moving forward (he had extensive notes for EVERY character which he never deviated from) and the fact that he wrote them as people first and mutants second and superheroes maybe third. people mock issues about the X-Men having downtime as filler but that was something you rarely got out of superhero team books. That daytime soap/drama aspect to it was what made Uncanny stand out on the stands, the fact you could follow a character like Wolverine and see him evolve forward for 15 years straight.
Instead new writers go "Oh shit the Dark Phoenix was so cool how about we do another Phoenix story and make it like 12 issues of nothing but fighting and arguing"
>downtime
Yeah, okay, I’ll take a cookout, party, softball game, date, half naked X-People pool parties and about a million other things, but a day at the mall with a fashion montage is over the line.
>Instead new writers go "Oh shit the Dark Phoenix was so cool how about we do another Phoenix story and make it like 12 issues of nothing but fighting and arguing"
Nail on the head there more or less but it's endemic to the industy.
They wanna do Dark Phoenix meets God Loves Man Kills but forget that those were two stories out of fricking dozens. You had Demon bears and shit between them, and even aside from those there was a ton of "Magneto took over a country" plots. it stopped the allegory from being overused and being central to shit. And they forget all that downtime and lower stakes plots were important to building the characters and reinforcing their dynamics and identities.
Nobody wants to do those though. You see with almost all modern comics and particularly licensed comics and cartoon reboots/continuations, they want to do the big "important" "serious" stories people praised. Nobody wants to do "Megatron's plan to steal energy of the week" or "Spider-man stops a bank robbery." stories, or the Power Rangers fighting Snizzard. They wanna be famous for doing their own serious important versions of "Ultimate Doom", or "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" or "Green With Evil" because they're too moronic to understand those only fricking worked as well as they did because they stood out and were supported by a shitload of bread and butter stories that weren't trying to be fricking blockbuster "Best of All Time" "important/must read" shit that gave them a strong foundation.
Modern comics don't have a fricking status quo anymore, superheroes don't fight crime anymore. It's an endless fricking stream of melodrama, allegorical bullshit, and villains who either threaten to blow up the planet/universe or are supposed to be dark, personally connected "biggest threats ever" types.
It's also a flat out lie. Canonically they're a dead end left over from a Celestial experiment that literally got fricked out of the running by humans who were never even supposed to exist. Mutants literally got BTFO'd by fricking accident. They're an evolutionary failure even before you factor in that they're just a bunch of pseudo-science bullshit that aren't properly true breeding.
>going by the number of time-travelers and track record of possible futures connected to Earth 616, the whole "next stage of evolution" is still 100% theoretical
That meme needs to be retired. It's explicitly canon that Kang's entire future is predicated on mutantkind either being forcibly evicted from Earth or fricking off from Earth on their own volition. To the point that it's a plot point that Apocalypse's future, not Kang's, is the default future if mutants are allowed to stay on Earth.
The future we've seen that was ruled by Apocalypse, the future Cable grew up in, was officially averted as a possible future back when The Twelve storyline was resolved.
Why the frick are the X-Men comics promoting replacement theory and praising it? How does that fit into the allegory
We discussed it before. The X-Men writers have been using race theory from the literal fricking 1920s and they are still using it to this day.
>Krakoa is the logical endpoint of their way of thinking.
Krakoa was either the logical endpoint or a twist (or both) on most of the staples of X-Men storytelling.
Integration vs Isolation: both, as a whole nation (not for the first time) on an island (also not for the first time) imposed onto the world
Oppressed minority: Now they're a minority that holds the reins of the world, and beyond.
Resurrection: X-Men, even by superhero standards, can't seem to stay dead. So now they're actively resurrecting themselves as a matter of routine
Mutants vs Humans: part of the enemies are now a comprehensive coalition of human agencies, and post-humans both existing (the COTV) and in potential futures (homosexual Novissima)
Mutants vs Sentinels: the BIG enemies are now AIs on the whole, and specifically the largest possible iteration of AIs, the Dominions.
Relationship soap operas: X-Men, even by superhero standards, go through relationships and love triangles like crazy. So now they're a sexually and romantically permissive society, personified by their main triangle, Jean-Scott-Logan, now being an open relationship of sorts.
New generations of mutants: They're all here now, both grown up and as students, as well as new ones.
Alternate futures: everything is now built on the bones of 9 overwritten timelines and all the knowledge Moira got from them.
And more.
And all of that with the pros and cons of their implications.
But somehow (tho not unpredictably) everyone latched onto the "orgy island" thing and "Cyke is a cuck" thing.
And Marvel backtracking on this won't save the x-books They needed their own master plan to explain why they reverted everything back and why everything is like before. Instead it's clear they have no clear idea other than to go for a pre-krakoa status quo that already failed the books.
It'll be entertaining post-Krakoa to see the new thing fall apart because of their lack of long term planning.
Nothing will save the x-books now. This was their one chance for a lasting, significant change. They're going for the nostalgiagay /misc/tard audience now who are already celebrating in the streets for the end of Krakoa. It's sad and it won't even work because you can't fill the void of true change and epic storytelling with "they're fighting some villains like in the ninetieeeeeeeeeeeeees"
Nostalgia is the death of all media.
If the status quo gives us crap like Duggan, what good is the status quo?
Krakoa had lots of good writers and titles. You're cherrypicking to support your bad faith argument. The new status quo has nothing going for it so far.
The new “status quo” hasn’t even fricking come out yet either. I get being annoyed by the guy’s prematurely celebrating the end of Krakoa before the actual ending, but the buttholes immediately doomsaying the new comic line as the death of X-men is just as obnoxious if not moreso cause they’re pining for a status quo that hasn’t even died yet
People want it to fail because it's Tom "Outrage Sells' Brevoort and he's the guy responsible for HoM and a litany of other shit like Aaron Avengers. So people want him to fall flat on his feet. Plus the personnel choices like Ewing and Simone are dogshit.
And really the X-Men sales were bad pre-Krakoa and the new take is similar to that so there's hope it'll revert to type again and of course none of the current names writing these books are sales draws.
Krakoa is literally already gone, what the frick are you on about?
It had a handful of good ones but the premise was faulty from the start and Duggan was one of the main architects after Hickman left. Even your precious Hickman wanted to end the status quo. No one wanted this to be permanent except apparently some delusional fans in love with some platonic ideal of Krakoa that didn't actually exist in the books.
>But somehow (tho not unpredictably) everyone latched onto the "orgy island" thing and "Cyke is a cuck" thing.
While I don't completely disagree with you, I think it's an oversimplication to boil everything people say about Krakoa to that. There's also the other side of it where people frame it as an utopia of whatever nonsense Twitter thinks the world should be.
I'm not a /misc/ gay but I think it's just a horrible direction to go in. I rather something like I said here
The satellite books were always going to be shit. I was only ever looking forward to Hickman's story. But even that went off the rails.
no, I liked it and frick off you whining cuck
I am 100% certain that brevoort era will be shit
>no-stakes battles due to instant resurrection.
Did this homie really think x-men dying meant the stories had stakes? Oh my lawd.
People who think Krakoa wasn't meant to be a dystopia just ignoring utterly vile shit like the Crucible are either projecting harder than Cyclops when he removes his visor entirely or they have their head buried in the sand.You can't fricking have characters go "oh this is kinda bad actually" as a rationalization either.
People can think whatever the frick they want
I really hate how some bitter homosexuals are trying to push the narrative that krakoa = clone saga. No, it wasn't perfect, but it was at least interesting, which is more that I can say about the majority modern comics
Krakoa was worse than the Clone Saga.
Clone Saga at least had some decent stories set during it
Your mother is a clone saga, and you're her abortion
>but it was at least interesting
The Hindenburg disaster was interesting.
Krap since Day 1 in the same light Clone Saga was but times X number of characters!!!!
Crap made worse by tying in time travellers and Omega-Cosmic level concept beings like Dominions.
There's no retcon. Get over it you sad fricking haters. Krakoa is going to keep influencing mutant titles going forward even if the island is gone. Plus a retcon would utterly devaluate any faith in the new line.
Will the X-Men will continue to support ethnonationalism and supremacy for no understandable reason? That's the main thing I want to go away
>Will the X-Men will continue to support ethnonationalism and supremacy for no understandable reason?
It was understandable in the post-M Day world that led to Utopia. Cyclops was unironically right to choose Magneto’s path at that point. But they needed to turn it around after Hope should have ended the “mutants are an endangered species” shit. Instead they quadrupled down on it with Xavier himself turning into some kind of cultist mastermind.
>It was understandable in the post-M Day world that led to Utopia. Cyclops was unironically right to choose Magneto’s path at that point.
>it's understandable within the context of the books going in a direction they should never have gone in
We're more than 20 years past the point of no return now, there's no way to fix things without a massive reboot.
>Mags Quoting the Protocols of Zion at the World Economic Forum
>Destruction of Terra Verde by Beast's X-GlowBlack person Force
>Cable causing thousands if not millions of human deaths putting the Children of the Vault back in the bottle.
>The entire world knows about the Sins of Sinister Timeline from Colossus being mind controlled to help leak it.
>Storm acting like the Mutant Mammy of Mars for Magneto & Arrako shit for all to see.
Unless Storm wants to run for the Knesset, this level of corruption would bar her from politics in general but it's fir X-Men 97 synergy so they'll be a mindwhammy or holocaust card used to whitewash all the above to shovel this drek to print.
causing thousands if not millions of human deaths putting the Children of the Vault back in the bottle.
The CotV were gonna off billions.
This is the problem
This shit right here.
They can never EVER play the card that mutants are poor, misunderstood and persecuted for no reason again.
It doesn't matter if their actions were the result of their persecution because they became something even worse.
"The leash is only offensive until it rests in your hand"
Every single fricking suspicion that mutants are dangerous, unstable and lack the moral strength and humanity to avoid doing horrible things has been confirmed.
They're going to pretend like all of this didn't happen but it did.
Mutants are dangerous. They are threats. It's right to want to cull, depower or destroy them.
>Humans are dangerous. They are threats. It's right to want to cull, replace or destroy them.
You become that which you hate.
But average humans don't share a telepathic hivemind nor have the a paramilitary force constantly fricking up the world for you. Even with the shoah whitewashing of Magneto in the latest book, of course people are going to be wary of people with dual loyalty to avowed terrorists & racial supremacists who have walking nukes saying that they'll replace you. Imagine if Tel Aviv or the Givit Ram Parliment building in Jerusalem was destroyed like Terra Verde while Mags says he's the master race/God of the israelites now. You think the world would bend down or excuse for that?
This. Mutants in this era are so far beyond humans they are uncontested. Except for trumped-up bullshit like Orchis.
>But average humans don't share a telepathic hivemind nor have the a paramilitary force constantly fricking up the world for you
Instead they have numerous terrorist organisations, cults, demon worshippers, etc. out to take over the world, destroy the world, sacrifice the world to supernatural beings, etc. BUT THOSE DON’T COUNT BECAUSE MY PEEPEE FEELS SMALL WHEN I KNOW MUTANT TELEPATHY EXISTS
Posts like these are fascinating to me because there's nowhere you'd hear these arguments besides the X-Men fandom. Do you genuinely believe in the weirdo supremacist shit? You talk like mutants are real and this is a good direction for a group everyone claims is supposed to represent minorities. Why the hell should they become what they hate?
It's legitimately the most frustrating part of the brand for me especially since it attracts weirdos. It completely undermines any concept of peace for endless conflict even people who claim to hate the bad mutant genocide stories seem to love. It also completely destroys the allegory angle of the X-Men. It's the IRL replacement conspiracy theory but they act like it's both true and should be celebrated. It's frankly disgusting.
The only reason you'd be mad that mutants are replacing humans is that you're mad that they have powers you never will or you assume when the numbers tip to their favor they'll do to you what you did to them.
Damn, the X-Men will threaten to kill minorities for saying maybe they're supporting bigoted worldviews. I always knew something was up with Shadowcat.
>they'll do to you what you did to them.
Where's this factional logic coming from? They'll do to anyone what anyone else would do given power beyond all reason. Go mad.
The depressing thing is that the entire "humans hate mutants above everything else and they're gonna replace us and kill us all and we need to genocide them" started out as a fricking VILLAIN theory in X-Men 14. Bolivar Trask isn't even a geneticist or an evolutionary scientist he's a fricking ANTHROPOLOGIST. That's not even a hard science! He's just some dude who gets spooked by mutants and starts writing angry fanfiction about how they're going to conquer and genocide humans. He has the same authority as when some TV preacher gets a SCIENTICIAN who has like a degree in law to take a look at evidence of evolution and say that mmmmmyup that's all fake, the Bible was right all along! Science BTFO!
This is literally how the whole "regular people hate and fear mutants" thing starts. With cartoons in a newspaper commissioned by an insane racist guy with no scientific expertise. Why the frick later writers would look at this and go "Oh yeah this needs to be an accepted part of the setting" is beyond me because it is so parodically dumb even WITHOUT the entire pseudoscience angle. But that also fits because Trask probably knows nothing about evolution except what he's seen in some sci-fi books. He read the time machine and is terrified that we're headed for the morlock future and Chris Claremont literally proved him right.
I also always lol at the gladiatorial combat panel because they fricking made that happen on Krakoa and played it entirely unironic except there it was mutants killing other mutants for fun.
Yeah, I'm pretty familiar which is why it bugs me so much. I imagine it's less of an issue for people who didn't pick to start from X-Men #1 up until modern day but it's painful watching the X-Men distort through a game of telephone. They're probably the worst offenders in comics. I don't know how anyone doesn't notice the inherit issues with doing the evolution struggle idea but also treating mutants as stand-ins for whatever minority group of choice.
My usual blame is the Fox movies but I'm all ears if there's a better target. Those movies went really hard on the evolution/replacement angle without ever pointing at the holes in it. It's one of the many things you can tell they didn't think about when making those and it probably left fans with mixed messages. Besides "Hugh Jackman is cool" I guess.
The first time I have seen it presented as uncontrovertible fact was in Grant Morrison's X-Men run which really wanted to be a Big Ideas thing about mutants being the future. But Claremont had already adopted some of the ideas into his run, just under less clear circumstances. But even if Claremont did it, by the 1990s somebody should have pumped the brakes and gone "Hold on, this doesn't make any sense and it actively makes our setting worse". How many people used to write in constantly and ask Marvel why marvel civilians turned into frothing bigos at the mention of mutants? Somebody should have spoken up and make them fricking erase this stupid fricking 1920s view of evolution.
And the worst part of it is that people love bringing this up as evidence that these books are so grounded in science and cool science fiction.
That also works as an origin point. On the bright side, I think it will sort itself out eventually. People always make the same criticisms about the X-Men over and over with all of them being pretty simple to untangle by following the threads. The problem is they're everyone's favorite group to post pseudo-intellectualism about. People would foam at the mouth when you tell them the MLK vs Malcolm X meme was historical revisionism and the 60 X-Men were basically "What if the Fantastic Four but teens?". Yes, Stan has interviews when he goes along with it when asked but he's an used car salesman and wasn't intentionally going to make people mad.
Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind and all that. Magneto was wrong and even admits it himself in times of clarity. The X-Men all becoming Magneto is a tragedy. I'm part of a "marginalized group" and I think those kinds of revenge fantasies are unhealthy. Maybe the Children of the Atom should do what they always do and you know, evolve.
I just wish they would make a big overarching decision and dispose of this shit. No more "homosexual superior" no discussion about how mutants will inherit the earth. You want stories about prejudice? Make them about prejudice that makes sense ie "We hate you because you are different" and don't make every fricking civilian fall for it every goddamn time.
Of course this also requires th writers to restrain themselves form mutants going on genocidal rampages and we know that's not gonna happen because every new X-man writer is going to chase that Dark Phoenix clout.
>uhhh achtually prejudice behaviour is all about logic and making sense
That’s how the X-Men argue about being prejudiced against all forms of A.I.
Non-mutants should hate A.I. Ultron exists and is a constant threat to them including killing the entire population of a country.
Danger and Vision and others are just fine though.
Imagine Kamala being a brownoser as usual to the X-Men until they start saying roboslurs and trying to lynch Viv Vision and she doesn't do anything to stop it until it's too late like she did in Civil War 2 with Becky & the Minority Report Squad.
I would really love it if Karima got her personality or soul back after Krakoa shit is finished.
>ywn get Machine Man protesting Krakoa and the mutants.
As anon noted the thing is there is no racism against AI in the MU. They recognize Ultron and others as bad and Jocasta and Machine Man as good, or at least don't consider their existence offensive. Hell in Slott's Iron Man we saw that there are literal robot bars in NYC now. Which I do agree is a bit laughably far for the MU but still. It shows the difference in editorial/writer attitudes between robot and mutie.
A long time ago there were suicide bombers willing to die to kill off robots. Just that mutants captured the main focus so robots were able to subvert humanity in secret.
>Dude.
>What?
>The mutants just fricked up and had a big battle on the White House lawn. Everyone's screaming for sentinels again.
>Again? Those frickers just don't know when to quit.
>Nope. Anyway how is the complete hacking of the US defense protocols going?
>Oh easy, all their safeguards are against mutants. We're gonna control those sentinels in five seconds flat.
>Frick yeah.
There were a number of cranks who went ballistic when Vision openly dated Wanda. In reality too, guys like John Byrne.
The biggest irony is those guys said that they preferred the existence of a “filthy mutant” like Wanda over Vision cause she’s, well, still a human.
Most of those people don't even seem to care about other robot and AI characters, it's just Vision who triggers them. It really seems like they're waifugays who can't bring themselves to self-insert as their waifu's love interest like a normal person would, just because he's not human.
Mutant hate has been turned up every decade from the 70s on. Meanwhile AI hate is only barely a thing and usually associated with specific characters. It would be interesting if Orchis led to some kind of change to this
I mean when you get down to it, yeah fricking kinda. Most prejudice is born of a unified logical and emotional response to imperfect information.
anon, because you sound reasonable, don't lump yourself with shitters. If you don't like the story, it's okay, but don't make an ideology from it. The flaws of krakoa are in the fact that comics are very decompressed and they can't covered every single angle. Another thing is that people who write them have obvious agenda. It doesn't change the fact that Krakoa was fascinating in more than one way. Was it great? No. Was it good? Yes. It had a lot of great fanservice, it did try to push the envelope, alas the haters didn't get it, because they think in absolutes, instead of seeing shades of grey. X-Men were always about the shades of grey, and while krakoa was too busy with the high concepts, as a whole, it was an interesting concept. While I wish it lasted a year or two more and was developed better, I will look at this era fondly, because it had the return of Eye-Scream for once. Cheers
You could partially blame the fact that despite being a legitimate kook by the way he’s presented in his introductory story, Bolivar Trask isn’t 100% wrong. And by that I mean the fact that Mutanr Hitler aka Magneto exists is an objective fact, and so is his screeching to the world how he is a living breathing example of a mutant aka “homosexual superior” coming to enslave humanity with his evil powers. Granted, that isn’t how Trask is introduced, since the way he’s presented he just woke up one day with the urge to call up everyone he knows and risk his entire professional career around destroying a strawman he dreamt up into existence, no mention of Magneto or any other evil mutants whatsoever. So he’s still a ridiculous villain, he just ended up being proven right by Magneto’s antics independently of his own, which I think is the real issue with the X-men. The antics and insanity of their villains has basically taken center stage and frames the entire narrative around which the X-men fight against and which lead to the Krakoa bullshit. Both sides of extremism basically asserting the other one is going to kill them all unless people act NOW, causing massive mayhem and destruction preemptive retaliation, and post-hoc justifying the resulting chaos as proof they were right. And few characters dare to point out the absurdity of the situation.
You have to realize though that silver age Magneto was considerably lower in his threat scale and vision than Claremont made him. Silver age Magneto would rock up to some banana republic and take it over with the Brotherhood just so they could live a life of luxury, there was no mention of oppressing humans or murder. He'd drive his submarine to New York and try to extort it for money only to be stopped by Thor. Yes he was dangerous and yes he did engage in debates about human vs mutant but the idea that he was a mutant Malcolm X back in those books is a ridiculous later claim made by Stan Lee when he tried to take some credit for the popularity of the X-Men during Claremont's era. Trask would have absolutely no reason to fear Magneto any more than Doctor Doom or Namor both of whom had already enacted schemes considerably grander in scale. Hell namor is actually the first Marvel villain to build human internment camps in his Atlantean invasion of NYC in Fantastic Four Annual 1. Fear of Atlanteans is a more realistic scenario than mutants.
My counterpoint is that Magneto's introduction involves him strolling right into a US missile base to pick a fight with the army itself, shouting his plans to the world of taking over the planet in the name of "homosexual Superior" from Day One. You're definitely right in that he wasn't in his "genocide all the normies" phase yet since he was just another evil dictator wannabe, but he didn't try his banana republic dictator phase until AFTER the X-men showed up and made him realize he had actual competition in his attempts to conquer the planet and that he needed a proper army himself. By all intents and purposes, his entire plan was to basically go for the throat in terrorizing the United States into submission under his rule, and he only failed cause the possibility of someone else having powers approaching his somehow didn't factor in.
Of course he was a threat, but Trask and then the entire Marvel civilian population jumping from this to "MUTANTS WILL ENSLAVE US ALL" is pure replacement theory fear mongering bullshit. Those fears didn't become valid until the 80s and 90s when they had to crank up the mutant threats to actually endanger all of humanity, at which point the original intent of the fear was already lost in the game of telephone.
Honestly, I've never bought the idea that the ENTIRE Marvel civilian population was inherently afraid of mutants. I always figured they were primarily just fearful of buttholes like Magneto and Namor destroying the place, and Magneto at least outright declared himself leader of the EVIL Brotherhood of Mutants for shits and giggles. I do 100% agree Trask is and still was a crank from how he never cited any of the mutant villains and probably watched too many showings of Invasion of the Body Snatchers, but considering how even the police were willing to give the X-men a fair shake in the famous God Loves, Man Kills series, I'd like to think the intent of the infamous "MUTANTS WILL ENSLAVE US ALL" narrative was more like "EVIL OLD GEEZERS WITH MAGNET POWERS ARE GOING TO ENSLAVE US ALL" broadened out to just give the X-men a bit more hardship, than any actual fears of replacement theory, if that makes sense.
During the early years, Xavier even had a friend in the FBI with Fred Duncan.
That and the other human allies, one of which was Moira, which is precisely the reason why retconning her as a mutant was bullshit.Ssince the fact that the X-men's viewpoint and goal was even remotely plausible on the microscale like with their few consistent allies and fans, it helped them and readers believe coexistence could be possible on the whole even with bumps in the road.
Claremont had the X-Men constantly make friends with humans. It's only in the post-Morrison era when it's become all mutants all the time, kind of the end result of every new run launching 10+ new characters which then end up folded into the main title when their own folds.
They’ve had human allies and love interests even after Claremont. The fact of the matter just is that editorial has been pushing years long status quo altering storylines where human characters barely have any place to be in any kind of prominent way. And despite they still have existed and shown up fairly regularly.
Morison's run was completely overrated. I'm not a fan of it did to the X-men though I will say I prefer utopia to the fricking mess krakoa was. I don't know why utopia couldn't have just stayed the status quo since comics directly after it sucked ass. I guess the new writers wanted to make their own mark on shit.
Why can’t you accept that there is clear cognitive dissonance and inherent hypocrisy at play when people go “See these fricking muties deserve to be eradicated!”
Actually fricking moronic, holy shit.
Let me spell it slow for you both so your shared braincell can follow.
Most people. In Marvel. Are not evil supervillains. They do not support that. Not that any of your moronic whataboutisms even matter, but still. It's canon that most people are just average fricking people. You cannot blame them for others actions. This is both canon and also basic fricking morality for toddlers.
Canonically,*EVERY. SINGLE. MUTANT.* on the FRICKING planet except for all of *five* of them, joined in on a pseudoscientific racial supremacy scheme to slowly exterminate the human race and establish themselves as the master race. Every single one. Ergo, you can, infact, blame them for the crimes they actively fricking took part in, you stupid b***hes.
They didn’t. Most people have no say on what the council did. It wasn’t a democracy. Keep seething.
I'm sorry did they or did they not actively, personally choose to join the ethnostate that declared they were the master race and forcibly declared them above the laws of men, and then fight in its armies, support its leaders, readily take part in its actual, literal fricking indoctrination of children and bloodsports/human sacrifices, and happily co-exist with the likes of fricking Apocalypse while serving on various fricking black ops teams.
Disingenuous misconstruing doesn’t make you right.
And yet you keep doing exactly that. Funny that.
I'm sorry a rabbi botched your bris and you're projecting your castrated cuckery. on everyone else.
>Terrorist Organizations
That the mutants are also apart of collaborated with such as the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, Hydra, AIM, Hellfire Corp, etc.
>Taking over the world
Like Magneto, Phoenixclops, Hellfire Club led by Shaw & Emma, etc have done but then cry "muh oppression" when called out?
>Demon Worshippers/Cults
Like how Magik was until she gave Limbo to Madelyne Pryor and let demons from Limbo overrun New York and kill innocent civilians?
>Sacrifice the Would to Supernatural Beings
Like how the Mutants cling to the Phoenix which is known to destroy ebtire worlds for it's own agendas?
>Muh Mutant Telepathy REEE
Cerebro connecting every mutants mind for Ressurection protocols against their will should of been a dealbreaker along with the telepathic brainwashing that comes both from the backup procedure and rebirth. Plus the non X-Men mutants are being used as fodder for Krakoa to psychically feed off them so yes, it's a unified cultish hivemind.
>TL;DR
You don't read comics and you should sue the chaim that castrated you instead of projecting your phallic failings with every post.
>>Muh Mutant Telepathy REEE
>Cerebro connecting every mutants mind for Ressurection protocols against their will should of been a dealbreaker along with the telepathic brainwashing that comes both from the backup procedure and rebirth. Plus the non X-Men mutants are being used as fodder for Krakoa to psychically feed off them so yes, it's a unified cultish hivemind.
JESUS CHRIST THIS STILL ISN'T WHAT IS HAPPENING. STOP SPREADING THIS SHITTY-ASS FANFICTION. I'M SO TIRED OF SEEING IT. THEY HAVE EXPLICITLY ADRESS THIS IN THE FRICKING COMICS THAT YOU EVIDENTLY DO NOT READ. FRICK YOU.
I hope this is just your castrated impotence acting up again but in the early Krakoa comics, they show that Krakoa island was feeding off the fodder mutants wjo came to live there because the Onslaught Mind Virus Orchis implanted into Krakoa was using that same psychic feeding backdoor to infect them and give them nightmares. Plus instead of teaching the children tjey dumped on the island like respectable adults so they can gain experience and wisdom like well-rounded adults, they just telepathically gavage the info into their brains and leave them to fend for themselves. They even threw a guy into their Krakoan hell pit for objecting to this non-chalant child neglect which is peak cult behaviour.
>TL;DR
Again you don't read comics. Go tell your rabbi at Unit 8200 that you're not cut out for this ever since they cut your manhood off.
Humans didn't have *every single fricking human in existence except for a random handful of Chinese* decide to use the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and Mein Kampf as instructional handbooks before trying to, and succeeding, in committing multiple genocides with the intent of using soft politics and economic manipulation backed by WMDs to cause a total extinction of a sapient species.
That's the fricking problem. They confirmed that almost every. single. fricking. mutant. aside from Molly, Klara, and some random ex-communist bloc mutants were 100% on board with plan "Let's wipe out the humans, we are the master race" and all that shit. Fricking ALL of them were down for it.
There's no more argument of "Magneto is an evil scary dick so being worried is one thing but you can't blame all mutants for his shit" because canonically they fricking all were.
Krakoa is so fascinating because it really seems like different people read different books, like
what the frick is he talking about? I only recognize the reference to the issue where Xavier, Mags, and Apocalypse went to the UN and Magneto said they were going to use capitalism offensively
Anon the Krakoa books talked extensively about how the plan was to slowly choke the life out of the human race. you had shit on the symbolic level like Emma angling to get Mutants recognized as the rulers of the Sol system, and on the nittygritty level you had everything from Beast unleashing a bioplague [which BTW they mentioned actually did more than kill off Terra Verde, many diplomats were infected they just never bothered to follow up] and Magneto almost literally paraphrasing both the Protocols and Mein Kampf about how the mutants are going to take control and drive the lesser race into submission and then extinction. Just replace "Mutant" with "Jew" or "German" according to your political tastes. The goal was explicitly always human extinction.
Saying all their shit about evolution was a goal of explicit human extinction is like saying the FF or the Avengers have a goal of human extinction because they aren't building lifeboats and terra forming planets for when the Sun becomes a red giant.
You are actively fricking moronic if you don't see the difference, anon. Sorry to say.
Mutants aren't a separate species nor does the "inheriting the Earth" nonsense actually pan out with established lore. Stuff like this explain why
Which again makes me bring up that I think the X-brand fricked up by making that a thing the X-Men believe instead of a fringe conspiracy theory people like pre-character development Magneto or random bigots believe.
the horrifying thing to me is that these fricking awful things from Krakoa will never be referenced. the popular x-men will apologize and everyone else will be like "aw it's okay" and then they can whitewash the Krakoa era to have been about peace and understanding and a tragic lost utopia. because that's exactly what these fricking writers would do
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE MUTIES BAD HUMANS HAVE NEVER DONE ANYTHING BAD
Apart from all the genocide, destruction of the environment, poisoning people for private profit, slavery, multiple timelines where their bigotry causes disaster to the world….
>how to we fix the x-men?
>by making them into racist xenophobes!
>brilliant here is your raise
unironically I like
How are the X-men going to live in the US after this when they have carried out literal terrorist attacks, violated US territory and declined US law? They're not just dangerous, they are literal lawbreakers who are trying to go back to their original country.
Orchis are villains who wanted to exterminate mutants and now the robots want to destroy everyone. They get blanket amnesty.
>I think it's time we admit to ourselves that Krakoa was shit
I've been calling it shit since year 2. People talk about how Hickman got screwed over, but pretty early on in his X-Men it felt like he didn't have a clear idea of what he was doing. Add on to that all the morons writing other books who thought Krakoa was meant to be an actual depiction of a functioning utopia of what twitter politics wants the world to be instead of a fricked up nation destined to crumble really made the Krakoa era a mess.
Could somebody explain to me why is there a need to show Prof X as a creepy butthole? what's gained from it?
He became a creepy butthole decades ago, anon. The first real salvo was Onslaught. Not just because Onslaught was drawn from Chuck's mind but also because Mark Waid wrote back into canon that Xavier had a pervy love for underage Jean back in the O5 era which was done to make him look creepier. After that it was normal for a few years until Deadly Genesis which was when butthole Xavier began. That story also involved Krakoa but I'm not sure if they wove that into the Krakoa era. But it showed Chuck having sent a bunch of X-Men to their death before assembling the All-New team and then wiped everybosy's memory's of that original team so they were forgotten. After that pretty much every run made him more and more of an butthole until Bendis had Cyclops kill him.
>having no-stakes battles due to instant resurrection
This was the one capeshit run that was honest about death in these things and how much it matters.
I remember DC was honest about it once, when Hal Jordan died.
>”x-men was always woke! Consoom the DEI-Myn 97, bigot!”
>”please ignore the five year ethnostate arc we just got done with tho”
It had a plan from Hickman but the wokes took it over and made it woke gay propaganda
You mean all of the “wokes” that Hickman hand picked as his creative team and brought with him?
The blame for the impotency of the Krakoan era rests solely on Jordan White and Hickman regardless of whether or not HoX/PoX was good or not
Yeh, all those wokes Hickman handpicked hijacked the story from Hickman and turned it in to something Hickman never intended, while ignoring his original planned ending.
We're still getting Phoenix vs Dominion. It's just not Sunspot Phoenix vs a Dominion hive but Phoenix Jean vs Sinister's Enigma giga Dominion
The cool way to have done this is by having a core group of X-Men lead by Prof X that oppose the ethnostate lead by Magneto, who increasingly is winning the hearts and minds of mutants across the world. Having no viable opposition to it in spite of the entire concept of an ethnostate being ideologically antithetical to everyone Prof X has stood for kind of took the teeth out of the story for me
That story was already told; Avalon and the Acolytes in the 90s.
Here's one for you, can you name a single great or iconic comic run published in the last 5 years?
Immortal Hulk by Al Ewing 🙂
Daredevil by Chip Zdarsky 🙂
Venom by Donny Cates 🙂
Krakoa was based. Best X-Men era
UNDERRATED AND IDGAF
Is it really not worth reading after Hickman leaves?
Not really. The fall of Krakoa itself was funny for half a second, then it became super asinine, and right now half of what they're doing is a giant rebellion style storyline against Orchis that's very deflated cause Orchis is generally uninteresting as a villain faction...while the other half is dealing with the Dominion shit Hickman set up, and it is extremely confusing and rather hard to follow without a shitton of backnotes, especially since more than one retcon keeps being required for shit to make sense. All the writers are clearly spinning their wheels until the new status quo.
I think you're not getting the point that they've willingly let a minimum of four or five different mutant Hitlers onto their council with no way to stop them from betraying the rest beyond the honor system. There's trust, and then there's gluing a "Backstab me" sign to your ass.
And you don’t get that the great compromise was to allow everyone in with an immunity and allow certain people to be part of the ruling council while being still very aware that they had to be careful around them. It’s politics. You’re basically just mad it’s not a perfect utopia
Definitely not mad it wasn't a perfect utopia, that's the only reason I bothered to read it. I'm just saying, the fact that every single hero basically submitted themselves to the machinations to four of the greatest threats to mutantkind's safety, that being Apocalypse, Magneto, Exodus and Mystique, they fricking sold their souls and no manner of private b***hing or complaining is going to matter the longer they chose to do nothing about it. And do nothing they did. Much like every fricking goober in Krakoa. Cause the story demanded that every single mutant be a brain-dead puppet in order to get this farce of a status quo to function without snapping in half within months.
Again, immunity and compromise. And it made the entire thing more interesting. The biggest problem was from the start that it took until Gillen to actually make the council interesting and have them properly start to scheme and play more politics.
The parts of the council themselves debating and backstabbing each other were the only interesting part. The fact that it came at the cost of every other character falling in line like a good little government state soldier is why I hate it. Fact of the matter is, the X-men NOT being a giant monolith of opinions and separate teams having their own viewpoints and methods of handling things is one of their franchise's biggest selling points. Shit's been there as early as the original X-Factor, where the O5 split off to protect mutants undercover while the New Mutants at the time continued saving people the old fashioned way. It's why X-Force was created, as Cable's way of channeling his own cynical views of mutantkind's place into a more proactive but still heroic form of protecting mutants albeit with more brutal methods than Xavier's X-men. Shit, it's why there was a whole Rightclops era when he split off to protect mutants his own way while Wolverine ran a school.
Point is, you can call it interesting, I'll continue to call it lame. Agree to disagree there.
And that is all Hickman’s fault because he could have written a one-shot addressing these things but he wasn’t interested
Given how much freedom he gave the other writers to do what they wanted with Krakoa, I sure ain't letting them off the hook for shitty writing
Every title was doing its own thing on the side, focusing on whatever slice they had, while Hickman was still the guy in charge of implementing the big status quo related stuff in his book. The blame definitely lies with master architect. Especially when he wasted so much time and all those giant sized one-shots were just decompressed filler outside of a single plot point they had to establish.
>The fact that it came at the cost of every other character falling in line like a good little government state soldier is why I hate it.
I don't know, I thought one of the weaker parts of the era is that when the sub-groups where faced with being asked to do something questionable, they just said "no." and there where no repercussions. Like every writer wanted their characters to be the special rebels with a backbone, but there was a legion of them.
It got to the point that it felt hypocritical that no one was doing anything about it. It sucks that they never covered how a protest would play out on Krakoa.
Funny, I saw the opposite effect. Seemed like the X-men, X-Force, the Marauders, SWORD, Excalibur, even the Legion of X seemed more than happy to just do the Quiet Council's bidding without questioning it. The Hellions and the few guys in the Exiles maybe were questioning shit, but nobody really bothered to rock the boat that wasn't already helming said boat.
Other than the Hellions I don't really recall any time the characters go through with anything they're uncomfortable with and go through with it, except maybe with X-Force. Like when X-Factor got Theresa Rourke out of a trial or the Five leveraging their abilities to resseruct clones, or even stuff like Legion or Destiny's unsanctioned revivals don't get much consequence from the Quiet Council.
This is what actually happened. All the people saying you can't go against the Council and yet none of the Councils ever did anything. The only time they acted on something was when they threw Creed into the pit and that was entirely out of plot contrivance. All these other big bad taboos they had ended up happening and nothing came out of it. Totally toothless.
Even when Gillen came on the book is held back by clearly building to the Enigma plot with all the Sinister shenanigans. So we don't get proper Quiet Council rules Krakoa storytelling.
Duh. Of course you need the book to actually build to something.
Right but it's so busy building to the big bad it doesn't do anything with Krakoa itself.
Because it doesn’t have the room to do side plots when its primary job is to establish and build the big final boss.
I thought the Krakoa Era was fun for the most part. I liked how everything was presented as 'perfect utopia' but behind the curtain it was actually a house of cards built on a bed of oily rags by a bunch of treacherous opportunists each hiding a knife behind their backs. It was kind of like watching an episode of Jackass and you know things are going to go horribly wrong in the best ways.
Why the FRICK did Duggan kill Dazzler like that? Murder the rest but Dazzler is a hot bimbo ffs
who cares. they just pop back out
Orchis is uninteresting as villains because Krakoa completely justifies every single fricking thing they could do. They're boring villains because they have no way to justify them being villains other than plastering bland atrocities that still come off as "fricking sucks but it's reasonable because Krakoa."
Just read Gillen's books.
>reading Gillen
No thanks I’m not gay
His Krakoa work is surprisingly lacking in homosexualry except for Mystique and Destiny who are hot lesbians
THE SENTINEL PROGRAM IS NOT ONLY RIGHT. IT'S A NECESSITY.
In a way, you just described Gorillaz music through the years.
Okay so put in your votes.
Which X-Man was character assassinated the hardest by Krakoa?
Unironically Rockslide. Dude's dead in every multiverse save for a single distorted false copy, and theoretically would never be coming back. And the current one is just an En Sabah Nur simp. Imagine Peter seeing his former student kissing Apocalypse's feet, shit sucks.
Storm was probably done the dirtiest out of the iconic X-Men. Wolverine and Cyke got to at least be critical and show some agency. Jean has always had her mouth glued to Xavier's dick so you can't expect anything from her. Kitty got to be the edgy rebel. Rogue and Gambit got to be the relative normies. Etc. But Storm? She traded her entire "Every life is precious, we can never lower ourselves to their level" personality for "Frick yeah Charles you are so fricking cool, I love being a government enforcer!". I'm not even a particularly huge Storm fan, but she got treated like she had a literal lobotomy.
>her entire "Every life is precious, we can never lower ourselves to their level"
When was the last time Storm said anything like that?
That was literally her thing from roughly 1975-2010 with some hiccups.
Ewing and Gillen had Storm trash Xavier. Ewing was much worse about it.
And yet she still sucked his wiener through the era.
Hackman's Storm, not Ewing's.
Storm looks like high profile scort.
You can literally frick black women who dress like this in London and France
>Ewing self inserts as a black woman
Ewing was even worse than Howard and Ayala
Did he adress why she changed completely from HOXPOX to this?
Gillen at least didn't write Storm as some holier than thou uppity mutie like Ewing did. Which is probably why Storm stans hate Gillen.
It seems to me she’s been written poorly for years, maybe decades.
Not a single good comic was released about Krakoa, Ewing and Gillen and Hickman are all morons with moronic (lgbtqia+) fanbases and the rest of the minority writers are even stupider
Unfortunate about your narrow tastes.
Krakoagays when they see the mansion be like
You can shit on mutants all day long, but nothing will change the fact that Krakoa era was interesting and had a lot of potential. I don't give a frick about the disingenuous arguments about morality, because they are in bad faith. Not liking the story is fine, but hiding behind the moral rhetoric is lame/ Pure and simple
tl:dr anti-krakoa haters should stop being cringe and lame
>nothing will change the fact that Krakoa era was interesting and had a lot of potential
I vehemently disagree on both, but I will still inquire to what points you felt were interesting and had potential on the grounds that rather than just tell fans they're wrong, I'd like to actually hear what people liked about the era
How is anything I said here
in bad faith?
>muh potential
Means nothing and should never be used to defend a shitty storyline. Potential means nothing if it's squandered, assuming that potential ever existed in the first place.
Seriously what potential do you think it had?
The only potential I saw was for the mutants to finally reach the logical end of their "next step in eveolution" bullshit, alienating all of their non-mutant allies along the way, only for it to bite them in the ass and learn from it. But that would require admitting that Krakoa was a fundamentally flawed and bad idea beyond just blaming Sinister and Orchis for everything
It reminds me of all Hickman storylines. "Oh, I have such interesting ideas and storylines... if only those nasty editors let me write my original plan!" and that's happened four times now. It's time people just admit he's a crap writer.
The worst part is I can see exactly what Hickman was riffing on and going for. He was combining Gaiman Miracleman with Dune.
Krakoa was Miracleman's Earth after he conquered it, a hell disguised as a utopia with alien rituals/culture, weird sex stuff, superheroes being the new gods, the resurrection of people from across history. Hell, his X-Men is structured like Miracleman's golden age, with Hickman doing "Le worldbuilding" with each issue focusing on a particular aspect of Krakoa's world, like Gaiman as is the obvious thing of "The gods and people are so enraptured by utopia, they ignore the signs its about to burn to the ground" is the same thing that Hickman was obviously going for.
As much as the rez stuff comes from Miracleman, its also the Gholas. ORCHIS were gonna be the Harkonnens, their role being the "ultimate big bad", yet the mutants would become monsters to defeat them as Hickman's "clever thing" of going "Oh, mutants can be just as bad as humans!". The drugs were the Spice. Moira, Destiny and Karima became the Bene Gesserit searching for the "Golden Path". The Anti-Ai stuff, as much as it ripped of DNA Legion's Computo stuff, is a major part of Dune. The whole thing of Legion, Proteus etc being "breed for purpose" and Chimeras is also another plot point from Dune. Storm's bastard son would probably be a hybrid of Paul/Leto II.
According to some interviews, HoX/PoX consists of the skeleton of a pitch he submitted to DC for the Legion of Superheroes. The LOSH takes place 1000 years in the future so all the things that felt extremely forced about Krakoa would have fit in perfect there. Who knows what society would look at after 1000 years? I feel that would have been perfect for it.
I can totally believe that. Moira X feels like an idea that was basically made for Legion of Superheroes.
TBQH, I can see some parallels in the pitch
Cyclops=Lightning Lad
Jean Grey=Saturn Girl
Charles Xavier=Braniac
Apocalypse=Mordru
Destiny=Dream Girl
Phalanax=Computo
At first I dismissed it but the more I thought about it the more sense it made. The insane shift in culture and ethics, the banality of resurrection, the vast spike in technology and resources? They would all work extremely well for a 1000+ years in the future post-scarcity society of superhumans.
Wonder how Superman would react when he came there.
TBQH, I honestly can see it working as yet another "reboot" where humanity is post scarcity and then its revealed that Brainy and some other Legionaries have been aware of previous reboots and have been manipulating everything to be just the way that they want it to be...
That being said, I wonder if the Legion would already be formed in this reboot or the book would start with the Legion in place. Cause I know Hickman is a big 5YL guy
Someone posted what Hickman's Legion was supposed to be and it was less Krakoa and More Avengers Disassembled raping the lore-wise....
>>Like Bendis with Byrne's rape of Wanda, Hickman was going to have Brainiac 5 go evil/be evil all along because Starlin's infamous "Evil Brainiac 5 story" was a big favorite of Hickman's
>>Mon-El was going to be retconned as being a test tube baby of Brainy's and all of his conflicting origins MKUltra brainwashing on the Legion so Brainy's pet assassin could be put into the team.
>>ALL alternate Legion reboots (TMK, Archie Legion, Threeboot, Retroboot) were just MKUltra mindrape done to the Legion by Brainiac 5 for the evilulz
>>Lots of Legion die fighting Brainy when he gets exposed, in particular the three founding guys (Rok, Imra, Garth)
=The Computer Tyrants of Colu
beating Brainiac, the Legion roster would largely be replaced with clones/chimeras of dead Legion members past and present and new OC characters Hickman created.
I can totally see concepts that morphed into Krakoa ideas there though. but it seems he wanted to actually explain the transition more. Oh God what if Hickman's original HoX/PoX idea included this with most of the X-Men being fricked, killed or raped and Krakoa being that new clone/chimera version?
Did you forget where he killed the entire team that attacks Orchis?
yes but they weren't really replaced in that way. I could see it go by that original plan with like some kind of whacky chimera X-Men team coming out of the pods. Storm-Wolverine mashup, Nightcrawler-Jean. That kind of thing. Like a clear marker than things had changed forever.
This sounds completely and utterly stupid. Seriously, what the frick does the whole "Braniac MKUltra mind rapes the Legion" work? The reboots were actual y'know... reboots. The actual universe changed.
Part of me thinks that this is just bullshit an anon typed, but honestly can't be sure.
His Legion was closer to his Avengers run and the cancelled Shiar Imperial Guard book than mainline X-Men other than perhaps Brainiac being the Dominions. But it never got to DC since the only thing Didio wanted him to do was New Gods. LoSh and Action/Superman were intended to be springboards to 5G.
Krakoa being shady and corrupt was made it interesting. It was fun to see how the mutant characters performed when given a place of social power instead of having the excuse of self-defense all the time. Characters being proactive rather than reactive.
The weakest part of the era was Orchis and the lack of any meaningful social conflict within Krakoa. I wish we got to see more social tensions over stories about combating outside forces, which you can get in any X-Men era.
This. All the X-men becoming drones who obeyed the Council was what killed the concept for me.
>Cinemaphile shits on Krakoa era constantly
>think it was a "failure" even tho it drew in a billion new readers and solid a gorillion books
>think that they're relaunching to capture the "old" audience
>think krakoa will be retconned
There's so much seethe and cope in this fricking thread and every fricking X-Men thread.
Nobody's going to pretend Marvel has the intelligence to retcon this shit out
>Why do people hate the Bendis Avengers run?
>Sure, it wrecked the status quo and every writer post Bendis is going to have to work their asses off to salvage the characters.
Hickman's X-Men run did the same level of damage to X-Men that Bendis did to the Avengers.
>It had potential
>It was Hickman's shitty attempt at doing Dune and obviously using a lot of ideas from his LOSH pitch that is never going to happen
That's like saying "Oh the Star Wars sequels had a lot of potential, even though every movie was absolutely dog shit".'
>Hickman's X-Men run did the same level of damage to X-Men that Bendis did to the Avengers.
Bullshit. HoXPoX at least did something with the characters after almost 15 years of being shat on by Marvel in some way. Don't fricking get on your horse and claim the one successful X-Men relaunch was le bad.
So did Age of X-Man. But understandably nobody's talking about that shit either.
>Moira is a mutant and a manipulative monster
>Turns out that Xavier and Magneto had knowledge of much of the tragedy which would occur
>Reframe the X-Men as always losing and unaware of the true threat
>The trio have been working with Sinister with ages, despite knowing what a massive piece of shit he is
>A villain organisation that no one knows or cares about is actually "le most dangerous threat" despite being made up of literal nobodies, because Hickman wants his Harkonnen analog
>X-Men go along with this and see nothing wrong with allow Sinister, Apocalypse, Exodus, Mystique being the rulers of mutantkind.
>Cyclops, Storm, Emma etc all lose their character development and go back to being Xavier's lackeys.
The 92 comic unironically gave the status quo away. Ultimately, all this was is reversing the X-Men to their 1990 "status quo" with a few sci-fi bells and whistles attached, and Moira could've been literally any character because she was so poorly defined and written in the actual comic.
And the thing is that this confirms every prejudice humans have expressed about mutants. They are manipulative, unfeeling monsters. They will kill humans happily if it furthers their goals. They kill, betray and brutalize each other if it brings their precious cause forwards.
Krakoa proved that mutants are a danger to every living thing on earth
>every mutant is bad!
>humans are right to want to murder everyone!
Big flatscan bias here.
>Bendis Avengers
So the X-Men being the worst parts of the Inhumans is going to get into adaptations and be the status quo until the end of time? That's horrifying.
Nah. Bendis' Avengers can be considered the start of the downfall of the 616 Universe.
>think it was a "failure" even tho it drew in a billion new readers and solid a gorillion books
if it was financially successful it wouldn't be ending. sales started tanking ages ago with one or two books in the line doing okay numbers, but over all the x-line's sales were dwindling. you don't get a hard status quo shift and replace the group editor if everything is doing great. also all the "new fans" weren't buying the books, and are also pissed about the status quo change.
It was always planned to end in 2024. They announced last year that New X-Men book that was going to usher in the new status quo but then White got replaced with Brevoort who went in a different direction.
Honestly, thank god for White being gone. He was legit an idiot whose strategy was to go around and ask people who had left Marvel
The worst part of Krakoa was not actually exploring that most of the characters involved should know better. Way of X was kino for having Kurt actually react like Kurt rather than Hickman's "Horny man whose supposedly the conscience of the council", and be completely horrified by ritualised violence, the grand speeches of Magneto etc.
ORCHIS were always going to be nothing. They were the Harkonnens of this saga. A totally evil and irredeemable faction who were being manipulated by powers both older than them and beyond their understanding. Hell, the leader of it was legit just Baron Harkonnen without the paedophilia.
>Way of X was kino for having Kurt actually react like Kurt rather than Hickman's "Horny man whose supposedly the conscience of the council", and be completely horrified by ritualised violence, the grand speeches of Magneto etc.
Kurt should have been one of the first to speak out. He's always been portrayed as one of the most regular, decent people on the X-Men. He should have been horrified by the Crucible the first moment.
Yeah. A lot of the X-Men should've seen the warning signs and actually either protested or tried to do something. The whole problem was that Hickman needed them to be blind, ignore all the warning signs and share beer with their enemies who have enough blood on their hands to fill a swimming pool.
It's the big problem with all Hickman's shit. The characters are archetypes, not actual people and can't have meaningful character interactions.
If they had let Emma and Jean eat each other out it could have worked, but they never pulled the trigger
I wonder if Scott and Logan are gonna keep fricking after Krakoa
please tell me you're joking...
About what? No I don't in honesty think they're gonna keep scott logan and jean as a polycule. About them fricking? Not a joke, that was confirmed by Hickman pretty much straight away to end the love triangle.
Marvel has undergone full homosexual institutional capture as a prelude to full comic industry death, so I don't doubt it
Krakoa haters you won. We're going back to shitty stories running around the US punching mean mutants. What else do you want
I think that's a false binary. Why does the X-Men have to be either a sex cult with their own corrupt ethnostate or endless shitty mutant massacre stories? I just want the X-Men to be the good guys again and co-existence/integration being their thing again.
Mutants as a whole don't have to be an eternal punching bag because discrimination's always going to exist on some level and they need to be some catch-all. They have enough characters from different backgrounds to actually write about social issues if they want to. The X-Men would be better off for everyone with the status of mutants being much more fluid and not constrained by that nonsense.
Also I wish the X-Men would start associating with non-mutants again and mutant supporting characters showing up in things outside the X-Men. Always loved that stuff and it made the world more connected.
This. If Marvel released an X-Men story where human and mutant relations and conflicts weren't one-sided enough where you question what the frick is the point of coexistence. Make it something like my hero where most people are willing to accept mutants in public and recognize the X-Men is actual mutant Heroes because they should act like actually heroes.
I wish we could get a status quo where mutants are just kind of accepted like all the other superpowered folk (outside of your standard few GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR I HATE MUTANTS politicians and robots) and how that would actually affect the world.
All these "mutants get genocided for the 50th time but 99.999999999999999999999% of the casualities are characters you've never heard of before or Z-listers" stories are getting overdone and tiresome.
That's basically what I'm talking about in the post above you. I think "protecting a world that hates and fears them" still works as an unique hook but their status should be something that can actually change. I can totally picture a scene of....idk, Iceman being happy because some dude calls him a gay instead of a mutie. Big "Frick, the X-Men are actually working" shit
Then later in the story the same guy sees Ice man in action and says "Wow that gay from the ice cream shop was actually a mutie? Thank you for saving us muties" at which point Bobby goes back and socks him in the mouth without saying another word, people stare, someone breaks in a chuckle and the comic ends with everyone laughing.
20 years ago that would had been a moronic brain fart a writer did out of spite and would had been easily forgotten but much like Bobby turning gay for dicks, not only progressiveness will prevent this from ever being erased it will be present and it will make everyone uncomfortable because you can reverse death but not homosexuality, comics everybody.
And of course we owe it to Joey Hackman and the Bennis :DDDD. Bendis canonized a fricking Family Guy joke.
If the writers were smart and really wanted to switch things upon a massive scale, they'd have 616-Earth's WHO declare "mutantdom" a genetic condition based on the the 23rd chromosome, which means all mutants are inherently human and thus subject to basic human rights. This'd allow all the people who want their mutants to be normal dudes to continue being normal dudes while the people convinced that mutants are something other than human can continue to be weirdos.
Mutants were never a different species. They can reproduce and produce with non-mutant humans freely.
Precisely. Biologically mutants are just a human sub-species, if not just regular people with an altered chromosome. So it seems the logical step to classify it as a genetic condition until it's better studied.
The whole species argument has always been so moronic. Not only is being a mutant caused by one single fricking gene which somehow can created thousands of different phenotypes and non-physical mutations but mutants are also entirely fertile with humans. The idea they were a different species was made up in the early 60s when genetics was barely understood but the fact they made it a universe "fact" instead of a in -universe conspiracy theory/racism thing is such a dumb choice.
The story of X-men is about prejudice and survival. Why does “okay muties are humans too” achieve except just do a point nobody cares about because it doesn’t add anything to the franchise. X-men have consistently flipped back and forth where X-men have somewhat accepted until they aren’t again.
I mean... it does. It's something that Carey etc ere actually being clever with. Reinterpreting the metaphor/drive of the story.
Instead of making it about "co-existence", highlight that these problems will not be solved by a different breed of human and the actual systems which shape people's perceptions and govern them need to change.
It's why Shaw is an unironic perfect foe for the X-Men as a whole. He doesn't care about mutants or humans. He's a capitalist who wants the status quo to remain as is... because he benefits from it.
Accepting that mutants aren't some mysterious different species of human that will supplant normal humans is important because it reframes the narrative. People complain that Marvel civilians are huge buttholes because they're always falling for anti-mutant propaganda and it's often framed in an "evolutionary struggle" or survival framework.
If you firmly establish that mutants are just phenotype humans you put a giant bullseye on the fact that mutant hate is exactly the same as hating people for their skin color or sexuality or religion. It makes mutant hate not about some grand evolutionary fear and points it out as the ugly, illogical thing it really should be considering the Marvel U non-mutant supers are happily accepted regardless of what they do.
But you need to couple this with a complete removal of plots where mutants are clear and present danger to all life on the planet and I don't think they can do that.
It's funny because even without the facts about "The Celestials did it and btw the X-Neanderthals fricking lost" mutants as the next step of evolution was always pseudo-science in universe. They aren't actually true breeding. They cross breed with humans, most of them aren't capable of actually passing down inheritable traits consistently [one gene that plays "spin the fricking wheel" is not a fricking species].
Unironically left over Elderspawn shit like the Insect or Feral genes, or random frickery like the Gamma gene, are more valid, which is telling because aside from Phoenix bullshit and engineered individuals, like 40% of "mutants" actually owe their powers to one of those genes activating in response to their X-Gene activating.
This is why you could easily defuse so much of the stupid pointless drama with a simple statement. Mutants are humans. "homosexual superior" is a stupid racist idea created by stupid racist humans in order to deny mutants their personhood and allow for a blameless scenario for oppression and fear. The comparison to the real-world belief movement of multiple origin evolution is right there. Countless racist scientists, many of whom went on to work for the Axis powers, proclaimed that human ethnic groups evolved from different primate species in different areas of the world. Thus in their view, the "Aryans" were one species, black people were a different species, etc. This was further expanded in a series of treatises which justified genocide and atrocities by the fact that "these people are not legally humans, like us." That's EXACTLY what Bolivar Trask says in the first Sentinel story from back in 1964 or 65. He goes on TV, talks about how mutants are non-human monsters and how sentinels are the only rational and sane way to defend "real" humans. Looking back at this the writers of later decades should have grabbed this dumb idea that kept being regurgitated and choked it by the throat. You can still have racist organizations like the Friends of Humanity believe in it because that is what racists do, but not making it an acceptable theory for regular people would have been such a huge improvement.
It's similar to how the classic belief that neanderthals were a separate species that we homosexual sapiens had to exterminate to conquer the earth has given way to the realization that neanderthals lived with and bred with homosexual sapiens and we carry their genes to this day. And they were most likely not a separate species but a subspecies of our own.
Honestly as much as I complain about modern X-Men and how mutants as a whole are treated or viewed, I think it'll sort itself out eventually. I've seen too many normies and casuals notice the holes and they aren't even seeing the really bad stuff. Hell, I've started noticing some of them debunking that historically illiterate "The X-Men were originally based on MLK vs Malcolm X" meme that always comes up. So there is hope that eventually it'd get better.
Even the Atlanteans have a stronger claim to being a separate species than the mutants do but I'm someone who considers the Eternals humans. The X-gene is basically an overactive version of what mutates have going on with the difference is it goes off and causes mutations without a need for external stimuli.
I wonder how pissed Namor would be if you called him Liger.
I didn't really follow any of the Krakoa stuff. One, because I don't really read comics anymore and two, because it just seemed to make the X-Men and mutants in general too alien to me
Aside from the X-men getting everyone annoyed with them for a bit for being snobby ethnocentrists, you didn't miss much.
X-Men has been factually aimless since 80s ended alongside all of Marvel.
As long the X-Men are not allowed to definitively beat discrimination, the series will go on and suck and suck. More characters will be assassinated, drama for the sake of drama, the x-men will be the spokesmen for whatever bullshit message is popular at the time, they will forever be marginalized and they will never win because if they do, the brand ends and the mouse will never allow it.
Thing is, they don't need to decisively beat discrimination, they just need a solid win like when they finally eradicated the legacy virus for good. Marvel just realized the X-men fans like their heroes being underdogs, so just kept hammering in harder stakes and setbacks for them until every plot just seemed to devolve into "Either the X-men win or MUTANT GENOCIDE". They need to fricking scale it back at this point, but that's going to be ridiculously hard to do with how obsessed the writers are with high stakes shit.
Honestly, someone should point out that gamma mutates technically line up better with the idea of being a separate species than mutants at this point. It'd blow people's brains and make so many mad.
>Honestly, someone should point out that gamma mutates technically line up better with the idea of being a separate species than mutants at this point. It'd blow people's brains and make so many mad.
I want there to at some point be a story where they debunk the idea of mutant extinction. Mutants cant go "extinct" because they're fricking humans. Mutants don't even breed true in most versions of the canon. So the worst "extinction" that can happen is that people with horrifying bug eyes and penises that can shoot fire vanish from the genotype. It would unfortunately never be published because it deflates the entire "persecuted new species that will inevitably rule the earth" crutch that they always have to lean on.
>The last "mutant" on Earth is just some dude with an extra toe
>Still dresses up in yellow spandex with an X logo on it and yells at the Avengers to suck his homosexual superior nutsack every time he walks by their mansion
I think that was slightly touched upon in Morrison's run with Mutants that were so horrifically deformed there was no way for them to procreate or it would be a turn off for people.
Now this is a non-sequitur to your post, but remember M-Day? I thought it was going to be used later as a way to reveal that in a few decades most people on Earth would had a dormant X-Gene that requires some work to kick in so there would be more controlled mutations emerging but you could just go and read My Hero Academia.
Morrison touched on the idea that the species concept for mutants is false as well, but he never committed to it.
>with Mutants that were so horrifically deformed there was no way for them to procreate or it would be a turn off for people.
The immobile creatures on "My 600-lb Life" put a lie to that idea. They invariably have a lifemate.
I kept thinking about what could be done to save Marvel up until the (latest)phoenix thing, then i just quit. That fixed the problem.
Comics are dead, and the closer they get the more diversity hires get to play with the corpse.
>only to get 5 years of mutants having parties and orgies and having no-stakes battles due to instant resurrection.
When was the last time their battles had stakes? All the rez-eggs did was cut down on the turnaround time and introduce some in-story logic to what was already a tradition.
since the x-men are ripoffs of doom patrol they should just copypaste mr nobody and make him the next big x-men villain
Mr. Nobody and the Brotherhood of Dada is far too interesting a concept to waste on the X-men
The entirety of Krakoa is an allegory for Israel and their Shabbos Goys, their Red Heiffer sacrifice, and every human and A.I. wanting to destroy them out of preservation/self defense.
How are those Muties going to dangle miracle technology and pharmaceuticals for political gains and not face many oppositions?
What even IS Arakko
The mutants completely colonized Mars and renamed it to Arrako with Storm as its queen. [s]It's where they send a bunch of their undesirables[/s]
What did the martians say about this?
They just pretend the Martians don't exist cause the obvious imperialism of a bunch of humans colonizing the rightful home planet and handing it off to their own society's undesirables might be a bit too on the nose
But like the martians have been referenced just in the last 5 years. Did the mutants genocide them? Did we escape the Killraven future because of the mutants?
I dunno, but the X-men comics presented Mars as a barren wasteland despite Hickman's own involvement in his Avengers run where an alien dude created a garden on Mars, so I have to presume that they just stopped existing.
Word of advice. Hickman comics are like Bendis comics. Other people's shit (including his own) matters only when it matters to the story he is telling finds it relevant.
Which is stupid, because a war between the X-men and the tripod Martians would have been the most interesting damn thing in this entire era
But it wouldn't fit his theme anon. That being "Mutants natural enemy is AI!" Having them become monsters in a way that doesn't fit with his story isn't gonna work.
That's the big thing of this era. A massive story arc about how "Great men fall to their hubris", "One was life, one was death" and "Best of times, worst of times", where the universe is always gonna end cause of Incursions... despite the fact that there are a bunch of solutions and or problems with that within the context of Marvel.
In fact, it go so bad that at the last second Hickman "Nuh-uh, all of these solutions other people came up with didn't work" in the most convoluted ways possible.
He wanted the X-Men to all in a specific way... and he won't let them fall any other way but the way he wants.
>"One was life, one was death"
Hey wait, we never found out which was which! Probably because it didn’t fricking matter since Cap vs. Iron Man was a red herring and the entire saga was really about Reed vs. Doom.
>Hickman comics are like Bendis comics.
but with graphic charts instead of endless bubble chains
Yeah.
Hickman's whole thing is doing the 5YL news articles/data pages and showing off he used to be a graphic designer.
>Hickman comics are like Bendis comics. Other people's shit (including his own) matters only when it matters to the story he is telling finds it relevant.
That’s a little harsh, I’d say Morrison rather than Bendis. The Krakoa arc was just Morrison’s run cubed.
>Arrako
>Arrakis
Bravo
It was conceived by Hickman and only works by essentially ignoring vast swaths of history and characterization so it was rotten from the start. The other writers didn't "ruin" it, it was already terrible.
Sins of Sinister was shit. It was just a shittier version of Age of Apocalypse but with more mutant wanking
It was a tighter, better-written Age of Apocalypse with massive amounts of creativity.
AoA was dumb fun that explored some interesting new character dynamics. Dark Beast and Nate Grey were fun, as was butthole Alex.
SoS was a boring slog that sniffed its own farts about dominions and didn't do much else. Rasputin is such a fricking boring waste of space and I can't wait for her to be written out.
The Nightcrawler Corps was unironically more fun and interesting than Rasputin, hell the fact that the Spider-Man hybrid feels an insane amount of self-loathing and guilt that he's internalized as original sin due to his Peter Parker genetics was both funny as hell and sad
SoS was about a society of backstabbers backstabbing each other and weird science body horror space opera shit, things I really love.
That ship looks like the artist took the Bebop and Swordfish from Cowboy Bebop, smashed them together, added warts, and called it a day.
That is entirely possible.
I still don’t understand wtf was the point of the hordeculture outside of establishing that the gates could be hacked. As if that couldn’t be achieved directly by Orchis. Shit, you could have had Plantman do it by working for Orchis
tbf they really should've went out of krakoa more, build relations an' all
not seclude themselves in an island while mutant-humans relations get worse by the by
They didn’t seclude themselves. They had ties with the world and were shipping the drugs globally. Scott even put an X-men base in New York.
For all the talk of the X-men not secluding themselves, their off-hours all generally consist of them squatting inside either their island or their tree talking to mutants. And no, the stupid drug trade doesn't count considering that by all accounts that shit was automated out to the point not a single X-men character ever had to worry about it until the plot said Orchis had to mess with it.
Plus all the bad PR stunts they were doing like kidnapping mutants to listen to their Krakoa timeshare seminar, even when their friends and family tell the Xmen to frick off.
>their off-hours all generally consist of them squatting inside either their island or their tree talking to mutants
But that’s not true. Of course they’re spending a lot of time what is essentially their home now. But multiple books show them being elsewhere so this is just completely made up thing to complain about.
>Also Marauders doesn’t count
Okay so you’re just b***hing for the sake of b***hing now
>Writer gets sick of being fricked with by editors, leaves Marvel and swears he's never going back to big 2 comics
>Goes back
>Gets fricked over again
How easily they forget
KRAKOA X-MEN - BEST X-MEN
simple as
This run will not age well.
Au contraire, I will never stop mocking and ridiculing homosexuals who keep seething about Krakoa
I fricking hate how Cinemaphile turns on anything new and original NEW THING BAD OLD THING GOOD. THE WOKES ARE RUINING COMICS.
My issue was always the bad execution from the start. I like the idea of trying to build some type of a society and the issues that brings to the table but of course that’s not what Hickman was actually interested in doing.
Hickman is the epitome of Big Ideas Man. "Here's my vision of a mutant dystopia where they get everything they wished for and become buttholes!" "But Jonatha, these are supposed to be relatable people. We've seen time and time again they wouldn't do something like this." "Yes they would." "Why?" "Because it's in my flowchart"
ngl, Krakoa gives me the same vibe as Hydra Cap. Well, Hydra Cap if there was a loud part of the fanbase that considered him a good guy and accuse you of being crazy if you disagree.
It's obviously not on the same scale but they share being mismanaged and their idea being misunderstood. Secret Empire was clearly supposed to result in a clean slate to focus on "the next generation" before its ending was changed. You can see it in the redundancy of those Generations books when they also announced Marvel Legacy to backpaddle on the controversy and because Rebirth was huge for DC.
I don't know if that's a comparison anyone else has had before. I know the Clone Sage comparison that always comes up.
Marvel wanted to frick over Steve and push Sam as new Cap. If not for the MCU in play at the time they might have gone through with it. Expect them to give such a story another shot when Cap 4 comes out.
It's funny that the Marvel readers turned on Secret Empire for the overt nazi allegory and celebrated Krakoa because it made the allegory about totalitarianism, ethnostates and being corrupted by absolute power much better. It's a fantastic feat of sleight of hand. Just a shame it wasn't intentional from Marvel's side.
Also Secret Empire had a built-in escape valve with the Cosmic Cube. Krakoa has nothing like that and is just going to fester in memory and future writers are 100% going to drag it up and crucify the characters for it for years to come.
Secret Empire is a plot that's sometimes on my mind because I think it's such a fascinating look into fan psychology. I admittedly have a hate boner for the ANAD era from always getting called a middle aged white man for disliking the legacy characters even though I was their exact demographic but I try to look at it fairly.
On paper, it was a dream come true for people who insisted the replacements were the future but they rejected it anyways. Steve was going to be corrupt and be the ultimate monster to defeat to kick off the new era, the new guys literally overcoming the past. It's literally the same narrative you see people make IRL when progressivism and diversity come up. Yet the same people who spent years insisting Sam was Captain America would completely drop that when Steve is getting fricked, even calling him Captain America when he wasn't for a while then. There seemed to be part of their minds that doesn't actually believe the stuff they were saying.
I am convinced editorial original intended that era to be permanent. Full replacement and retirement of their classic characters. Banner was killed, Tony was killed, Steve became evil, Thor became unworthy. They had Endgame on their mind and wanted to co-opt future MCU product by presenting a new set of characters for the movies to adapt, embracing the "idea factory" aspect. Oh sure there were still many comics just chugging along in their own sphere, but I think this was extremely planned.
And yeah as you say the response from the fandom shocked them at the time. It was such a violent outpouring of dislike from the "Hail Hydra" reveal and it came from all corners of the fandom. Classic fans saw the betrayal of one of their most iconic characters. Woke fans saw the glorification of Nazi ideology. Casual fans saw a Marvel superhero turned evil for seemingly no reason. It's the only time I've seen almost every corner of the comics discussion sphere suddenly rise up against the same thing. It probably won't happen again.
What it seemed to accomplish was the final death of large-scale synergy. Marvel still does synergy shit (that recent Thunderbolts mini was blatant movie-bait) but they seem to stay away from actually redefining the whole universe to fit the movies like they used to. Perhaps it's a lesson learned or maybe it's just the quickly dwindling faith in the MCU and shrinking box office but we just don't get that kind of thing anymore. And that's good.
Nothing is permanent in corporate comics. Get it to your thick skull already
except the gays
They already have replacement Iceman setup.
No one said it'd last even if they did it. Learn to read. It was clear the intent at the time was wiping the board for the legacy heroes which were being pushed hard at the time. Why do you think they put out books about looking back at the past even though they changed Secret Empire's ending to lead into knock-off Rebirth at the same time?
"It's over. Nothing ever changes. Westfallen" is the most brain dead talking points.
The current woke agenda has been running for 10 years now. That's as good as permanent. And no sign of stopping with how many characters were turned gay by Krakoa.
The lack of visibility of Whor since Aaron left and how much Sam has taken a backseat to Cap shows that a lot of it was only temporary. Nowadays nobody cares about Nadia or Riri.
Like for Thor, Aaron said multiple times it was a temporary idea that they stuck with bc of sales.
It’s so funny Cinemaphile will call bullshit when comics say “THIS CHANGE MATTERS, NOTHING WILL BE THE SAME” except for a period in 2014
By that logic Krakoa would also be undone and yet that's not happening. We're stuck in this dung heap of a canon now.
Krakoa status quo is being undone, it just isn’t erased from having happened, you fricking idiot.
I don't believe "nothing ever changes" in the first place. Comics have clearly changed over the years and I doubt you can point at a truly static major character. Yes, there's always a push-back to "return" but it never truly happens and they're still altered by it. "Nothing changes" is more a cynical talking point used by either casuals or people butthurt some idea they liked didn't have the shelf life they thought it did. It's a massive oversimplification.
This. Things clearly change in the sense that the politics and behind the scenes condition change so we get new kinds of stories. Nick Spencer's Captain America would never have been published in the 80s even though it's the same character.
It's also a relative thing where the amount of change depends how close to A-list you are. A-listers generally have to maintain some marketable recognizability but B and especially C listers have no such requirement. So they get to change all the time which in turn changes the A-listers because the universe shifts around them even if they spin their wheels for longer.
B and C listers are also susceptible to get weird status quo changes like "Here's a new girl Quasar. Is this anything? Is it? Maybe they swap places with their wristbands? No?"
Funny thing is that there was a notable chunk of the fandom that jokingly called Stevil the “good guy” cause despite being a very clearly evil guy, most of his actions at the start of his campaign of terror were in essence giving the Marvel fans dangerous levels of fanservice, much like what drew people in with Krakoa was the mutants getting their knobs polished so hard after twenty years. He dicked over Carol Danvers and her two space based teams by forcing her to fight the Chiutari non-stop, he sent the Inhumans to internment camps while giving the mutants their own fascist ethnostate, he murders the frick out of the Red Skull, he trounces the shit out of all the replacement type heroes including Sam Wilson, you had him definitively frick over Sally Floyd, you even had the whole galactic community and Pymtron saying that the entire conflict between Hydra and the resistance was funny because Earth’s supers are fighting amongst themselves yet again in a stupid crossover event.
Hell, like Krakoa, it begins with such a massive gobstopper of a retcon to force its premise to work too, but unlike Krakoa fans didn’t swallow it hook, line, and sinker. So the Secret Empire comparison is more apt than you think
>Secret Empire was clearly supposed to result in a clean slate to focus on "the next generation" before its ending was changed.
That is profoundly stupid, that only leads to alienated readers hating whoever they decided to replace Cap with. We already saw this with Transformers the Movie, and Optimus had a WAY better send off than fricking Secret Empire.
And now everyone loves Hot Rod. Just need more exposure.
Yeah, after decades of Optimus being back and never leaving his position as leader. Had they stuck with it TF might've actually died with the movie.
He dies again a bunch of times.
marvel editorial have been up their own ass for a long time
people who hate krakoa are boomers who don't accept any form of new ideas
I like new ideas, but I don't like forced ideas. The very premise of Krakoa required a ton of obnoxious retcons and a lot of OOC behavior from many different characters.
Krakoa has no retcons. Read some fricking comics before you post.Literally everything in it builds on shit from Morrison's, Fractions and Bendis' runs, among others.
Moira is a big fat walking retcon, homosexual
>reality warper character warps reality
>retcon
I remember a time when Moira was a nice human who died and not some psychopathic keikau master, when Apocalypse was an ancient Egyptian mutant who believed in survival of the fittest over all because of his harsh upbringing as a slave who ascended and not some simp who had a secret colony on Mars who did everything for his wife so she could have an army of strong mutants to fight demons on Mars, when Sinister was a guy who developed his creation engines and campy personality as a response to getting killed and not someone who always had those things, when Magneto and Xavier fought for what they truly believed in, and not people playing kabuki theater with other peoples' lives the entire time to achieve a specific outcome.
None of those are retcons. They're new revelations. Morrison did that all the time.
That's a retcon
>Totally change a character and is utterly inconsistent with what came before
>Not a retcon, it's a revelation!
You sound genuinely stupid. What Hickman did is a complete retcon and change of the character. Moira's character pre-HOXPOX is not only totally different but totally inconsistent with her characterisation in Hickman'x X-Men.
Morrison's retcons were all shit, because much like Hickman he was a dramatic homosexual who wanted to "make his mark" with big dramatic stories and like every other homosexual who does that he didn't build a foundation, just sat around shitting himself and throwing shit around thinking that an endless stream of overdramatic bullshit and status quo shifts would stand on its own without any connective tissue or variation in stakes to make them meaningful.
>I remember a time when Moira was a nice human who died and not some psychopathic keikau master,
This one is painful to think about. Moira was probably the best, nicest human ally the X-Men ever had. She sacrificed her life to cure the Legacy virus. She helped them with a bunch of crises. She was like a mother to Rahne. She took in wounded mutants under her own roof to heal them after the Mutant Massacre. And now she will never be remembered as anything but a complete monster. Totally destroyed by retcons to the point where people don't even mention the character except in her Moira X form. I wonder if people who jumped into the X-men with Krakoa even realize what a complete character assassination this is? That they dragged Moira back from the dead just to do something even worse? It's the same thing they did with Madelyne Pryor back in the day except I don't see any out for Moira after this. If she ever reappears it will always be as a villain and a manipulator.
>Revive a beloved character just to shit on them
Why does this happen so much
Hickman revived her and made her a chessmaster because he wanted to be clever and do "What a twist! Look at how smart and edgy I am!"
I don't know. It fricking sucks. Moira deserved better than this. Hickman should have at the very least respected Claremont's 15 years of character work on her and let her stay dead and stay the character she was created to be. Instead he dragged her back and gutted her into his OC villain. It happens sometimes with superhero characters but this is by far the most prominent example I can think of.
I’ll be honest I was thinking of Ben Reilly when I made that post
Ben, Maddie and Moira are the three major character I can think of offhand. Maddie has been shat on for so long her recent appearances have actually been a redemption for her as a character, even if it sucks she has to be le ebin loose demon prostitute now forever. But at least she gets to be around and be her own boss. She's hilariously much less of a spineless toady than Jean considering Maddie was literally created to be a tool.
Moira is the only one of them I can't see getting redeemed, though. Ben will inevitably be redeemed out of this Chasm garbage and Maddie is still girlbossing around. But who would care enough about Moira to try to fix her, especially after people have celeberated the frick out of HoX/PoX.
Yeah that’s the curse of being a minor character. Kafka has that going on right now too unfortunately
>Moira is the only one of them I can't see getting redeemed, though.
I don't think Krakoa will get the reset but Moira might. Some time line shenanigans will return her to who she was before, possibly even without the X-gene, and Moira X will be treated as an AU version of her.
She's probably going to be Dominion'd.
I don't think you can reset her for future use. It's always going to be in the shadow of Hoxpox.
Better to set her aside.
It's not like she was being used all that much after Lobdell killed her in Bishop and Gambit.
She's got a long enough and significant history before HoxPox that I can see the office wanting to keep the original Moira on hand.
Moira X has a reset button built into her and singifier name to boot. I suspect she'll also have a redemption moment, but I can also see Gillen sepersting her existance from the original Moira so the Office can have both.
Moira has one very easy out. Proteus. He's her son, he's a massively OP reality warper. He could do anything the plot demands, even pulling out an "innocent" Moira from this mess. Actually has he interacted with Moira X to any extent?
Yeah, she met him at the Gala she crashed and told him that she never loved him, he was just a means to an end.
Jesus fricking christ. Do these people just live on shitting on characters?
Gillen is setting up a Moira redemption in rotpox. She might end up becoming a kind Dominion or maybe the point is to reject Dominionhood and just accept death.
I don't want that. I don't want any more fricking Moira X shit. I want somebody to just rip it out like draining an infected wound. They should have left her dead and not raped her corpse like this.
Was Hickman planning on Moira dying and the timeline resetting?
No. Why the frick do people keep thinking krakoa was going to be retconned? There's no indication of it in anything, either in early plans or anything else.
When you introduce a character whose power is explicitly to wipe away a very messy timeline in an instant, it seems like the most logical usage of the power to fix an obviously beyond fricked timeline state. But then again, clearly people aren't thinking on the 4d chess levels most comic book writers are.
The thing is they could never do it. Krakoa interacted with all the Marvel titles in some way and some of its influence was major. If they wiped Krakoa, they would have to wipe the entire comics range, and that would kill the company. Nobody ever will accept "the last five years you read never happened and don't matter", that's a suicide note for the publisher.
I'd have said the same thing about OMD years ago, considering how deeply involved Mary Jane was with Peter Parker's superhero lifestyle, but the fact that Marvel still did it despite knowing how much shit they'd have to pretend never happened means that retconning Krakoa will worry them diddley frick.
They won't do it though. They would have to be convinced Krakoa was for some reason a failure going forward and editorial loves Krakoa. They love the twitter engagement from it. It's not going anywhere
I have zero expectations for what Marvel will or won't do anymore at this point, bro. We all know how much they crowed that Hydra Cap would be a completely permanent change, only to pussy out of it by the end.
>twitter engagement
Ah yes the most important thing a business company should ever want. Who cares if it never ever actually translates to sales?
homie, majority of people loved krakoa, except the minority of Cinemaphilentrarians. You can expect Krakoa age being revisited in the future with minis and anniversaries
They're not going to revisit it. And not cause it's lame, even if it is. They had like four whole years to do whatever they wanted with it, and this is the best they could do. They've basically shot their Krakoa load at this point, they don't have a reason to go back to that shit ever again.
They will if From the Ashes flops, which it has a good chance of happening given the diversity hires and gender study majors they have put on the books.
The Kitty book's going to flop but I doubt Simone's southern horny and McKay's Bendis-Men redux will. They're the ones going 18 issues a year too.
I think the sales are just not there. They don't have an event to build around. They don't have a big shot writer. The books are going to stand or fall based around the individual merits of the stories and the writers/artists. Pre-Krakoa, the sales were a dumpster fire. It's very likely this is going to be a repeat of what sales were with X-Men Blue/Gold/Red and X-Men Disassembled and all the other misfires we had before Hickman.
There are no big names anymore. Simone kinda sorta was at one point and MacKay is their current workhorse who gets a lot of books so he does decent enough. Every other book is worse off than X-Men in this regard.
Hickman on Ultimate Spidey clearly is a big shot. Morrison I think was for DC before he retired.
Based on how Dominio performed pre-Krakoa for Simone, it's likely we'll see a similar trajectory in that retailers will over-order for the first issue or arc and it'll drop like a stone for the rest of the 18 issues.
You'll likely see something similar for Mackay particularly since he doesn't have any popular characters with a major followng on his book.
Hickman already did X-Men. And Morrison's 64 years old and already did X-Men 20 years ago and likely not all that keen on ever doing it again based on how things turned out.
Morrison is NEVER coming back to X-Men. he got fricked over super hard by Quesada and has not worked for Marvel again since AFAIK
He was pissed off about Jemas nixing his Marvel Boy sequel and insisting that people write comics that could be easily adapted into movies, signed an exclusive contract with DC and forgave them for selling him out to Warner Bros by letting the Wachowskis rip off the Invisibles for The Matrix without giving him any kind of credit or compensation. Quesada is gone and Jemas is long gone so they could have offered him a similar deal eventually but chose not to. They did publish that Marvelman story he wrote way back when that Alan Moore seethed about once they got the rights to it.
Which makes me think that the x-men are only good and bestsellers when there is some vision behind the book, or something grand (like Krakoa). IMO, Brevoort's era is already dead on arrival. Not only it doesn't have like you said, anything exciting, it also continues some of the worst excesses of krakoa era, like Tini Howard and her shitty writing. It's confirmed that Betsy/Rachel will have a book in the upcoming relaunch
Absolutely.
Brevoort's treating X-Men like his several decades long tenure on Avengers. It's just not going to work.
In contrast to Avengers, X-Men as it is now is still in a much worse state of affairs because of Quesada and Ike.
I'm sure there'll be white knight fans trying to prop up the franchise and encouraging others to buy into the new reshuffling. But going back to superheroics might as well be a declaration editorial has no plan to save the franchise.
It's going to sink like the titanic.
>given the diversity hires and gender study majors they have put on the books
You mean like the guys who were working on the Krakoa books?
Duggan, Ewing and Gillen evenn by your admission are all white men.
Eve Ewing is a black women.
Gail Simone is a twitter gender activist responsible for Women in the Fridge and is a failed comic writter hasn't written anything big in the last ten years.
Of course they will, it's too landmark to be ignored.
Wasn't the only big one really Ewings gotg? Then Gillen picked up the Phoenix stuff from Aaron.
>Krakoa is universally loved
According to who? Your twitter ad cbr hugboxes?
show me who hates krakoa outside of 1 anon spamming the same thread over and over again. This thread itself proves that it's mostly pointless shitposting
Miserable dude angry about comics. What a unique prize you are, champ.
I got too busy with university and haven't taken the time to catch up. Didn't like how some writers were writing Krakoa is an Indigenous/decolonial thing and other writers were writing it as Israel 2.0 (especially Beast). Made everything self-contradictory. Killing Max seemed like a dumb move too. At some point it started to feel like the lack of vision was really coming through and writers were just doing whatever they wanted and stepping on each other's toes.
Would've been interesting to see what Hickman had planned but we'll probably never know.
Krakoa was great.
Krakoa was awful.
365 post best post
Admit?
This was an obvious and open fricking fact literally from the moment we started. I said "Responding to people pointing out that Mutants don't have a shared culture, language, history, or any of that shit by making them invent one from bullshit and cope while being cryptoisraelite fascists is fricking moronic." day fricking one.
Why would humans be jealous of mutants when humans in Marvel have proven to be able to surpass them in every way through science and magic
they were ripping off the inhumans
ITT: People b***h about comics they never read and get angry because they tried something different than "muh mansion" and "muh oppressed minority"
They already did something different back in Age of Apocalypse. The shit on Krakoa was all the same X-men stories, just given a shiny paint job and powerwanking the hell out of every mutant that the fans say they give a shit about.
frick you mean "now"?
it's been shit for 5 years running, and it's going to continue being shit until they decide to axe it from all X-Men continuity because the fundamental premise is moronic.
Magneto is a villain in the series because he does exactly the mutant supremacist ethnostate shit that Krakoa is built out of, how the frick is having the series protagonists do literally exactly the same thing but expecting us to cheer for it not the most supremely moronic thing to happen in comics since the CCA?
Okay contrarian.