Manga is easy to find, they sell everywhere, there are thousands and thousands of pirate websites of all sorts and they have the animations kinda like those big commercials an only for that, so it's easier to reach a wider audience. Indie comics are still truly...indie. Most people don't know they even exist, a bet a lot of the gays that come here to talk about anime vs cartoons or comic sales or Cinemaphile tourists never even heard of one indie comic in their life, in their head western comics are all capeshit. I kinda want to stay that way.
its true, the other day i was talking to the director of my departament and he was reading comics on his tablet, i tryed to say that i read comics too but when he showed me his 1 terabyte of indie comics that i had never even heard of i endup looking like an amateur
to be fair all of them were more than 10 years old, but still
Westerners buy manga as merch for their favorite anime, no one actually reads it. It's like watching Rick and Morty then buying the Pickle Rick funko pop, it's just shelf decoration to say "I like thing".
Spider-Man comics were relatively niche even at the time, capeshit never was big as shonen is now, in one decade they already surpassed one century of superhero comic sales.
Spider-Man is still the most popular superhero in the world, but not because of his comics. It’s because of his movies. The merch and games are selling around the world all thanks to the world wide success of Raimi’s Spider-Man.
Capes were big enough at one point that mothers could occasionally write letters to Marvel and get them published. I also remember a letter from a stuntman in an early FF issue. It's probably true that they were never as big as manga is now, but they weren't always as niche as they are now either.
Stop the damage control, the guy is making a comic about a non 80s comic, it's straight up not talking about the 80s nor is based on the 80s the author is just an out of touch moron who thinks kids read Marvel garbage rather than weebshit.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Evan Dorkin entire career is based on making fun of a fandom of 10k nerds or so and pretend that they are mainstream because otherwise he's just an autist obsessed with the opinions of an extremely tiny group of people rather than something relevant.
They are >Hero Academia >One Punch Man >Chainsaw Man
etc, they don't buy american capeshit though.
Is there anything for kids from Marvel & DC?
I don't think kids want to read a monologue from a heavyset woman about why she's so great.....but....maybe they do
It's just fatties on social media advocating for more fatty inclusion in media and to stop body shaming them for their unhealthy lifestyle and eating habits.
>Is there anything for kids from Marvel & DC?
Yeah there's like Batman meets scooby Doo and shit. But really kids like edgy shit.
Even MHA has boobs and blood. Boys eat that shit up
The best part about manga is that it appeals to niche fetishism you arent allowed to write about in america, and sometimes cool anime like penguindrum come out
The only people indie comies and zines appeal to are tranarchists
>The best part about manga is that it appeals to niche fetishism you arent allowed to write about in america
This is a big one for me (and, let's be honest, a lot of people on Cinemaphile).
When manga gets weird it's much much weirder and more batshit than American comics, which for me translates to more fun.
>niche fetishism you arent allowed to write about in america
You are speaking of e-girl, yes?
That appeals to tranarchists too. Arguably more than indie comics.
>The best part about manga is that it appeals to niche fetishism you arent allowed to write about in america
This is a big one for me (and, let's be honest, a lot of people on Cinemaphile).
When manga gets weird it's much much weirder and more batshit than American comics, which for me translates to more fun.
I think western comics get weirder, but they break so many conventions they become unreadable.
>I think western comics get weirder
Nah, western comics will do weird things with structure, but not weird things with the actual plot.
Even shounenshit gets weirder, like with the twist where the big bad in Jujutsu Kaisen gave birth to the MC by taking over some broad's body and getting impregnated in it.
There are just some things you will never be able to get away with in America. There will never be something like Made in Abyss made in America, or even Baki (no, Luther Strode is not at all equivalent to Baki and is nowhere near as batshit insane or weird).
They do weird things with plot too. Like the clown in Ed the Happy Clown that has alternate universe Ronald Reagan's head as a penis glans, and the only way to return the head to the body is for the clown to frick the ass of a corpse that can't stop shitting.
The only thing that really isn't allowed is e-girl and things like that. So yes, Made in Abyss could never be made.
I hope they could bring the sexy back (Yeah!) to comics at some point. But e-girl is never going to happen.
Can I write an a comic with an all-white cast in america, and when someone inevitably asks me why are there no blacks in my comic, can I say "I don't want black people in my comic!" ?
[...] he's speaking of [...]
People aren't allowed to freely make comics about what they like without having forced diversity shoved in even when they don't want it
That's the real taboo in this shithole
>Can I write an a comic with an all-white cast in america
Yes.
>Ichi the Killer
Meh. Crossed exists, but it's nothing to write home about.
Ichi is a solid manga. I thought it was very funny.
Crossed, not so much.
>when someone inevitably asks me why are there no blacks in my comic, can I say "I don't want black people in my comic!" ?
8 months ago
Anonymous
Sure.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Sure, twitter/tumblr won't start a cancellation campaign over that, and other bullshit you tell naive morons.
8 months ago
Anonymous
It's just twitter now, but yeah. That's what happens. It's best not to speak your mind.
Just create that comic with all whites and never answer their dumbfrick questions.
People tried to cancel Dilbert because there are no black people in a office humor comic strip centered about nerdy white engineers and H1B indian interns.
No, it was because he told white people to segregate themselves from black people on top of other things he said in his videos.
The strip survived for a long time without a hitch before he said that.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>That's what happens
And that's bad. It needs not to happen at all for people to feel free to create what they want. Creator censorship only makes the problem worse, so don't creators to censor themselves, tell those morons to shut up instead and accept that not wanting blacks is perfectly okay.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>he told white people to segregate themselves from black people >that's supposed to be the worst
..do americans not believe in freedom of association or what?
8 months ago
Anonymous
people have sued for access to white people.
It's never about if indie comics can be good or not, it's always indie comics don't cater to me the /misc/guy and instead cater to the Cinemaphileguy.
You don't give a rats arse about the quality just the politics and that makes you just as hypocritically guilty.
Anyway the real reason Japan has a thriving indie scene is becuase in the US fan-comics being sold are seen as a trademark violation that could legally froce the companies to lose the trademark. Coupled that with the lack of public comunting prior to phones where everyone could sit and read while travelling mean the market never developed and is never going.
So are you saying Anime appeals more to the pol guy? >mean the market never developed and is never going.
Places with big commuting in the US still prefer anime.
8 months ago
Anonymous
People tried to cancel Dilbert because there are no black people in a office humor comic strip centered about nerdy white engineers and H1B indian interns.
>The only thing that really isn't allowed is e-girl and things like that.
Bro you rarely even see people use slurs in modern comics, they'll have a character written as an unrepentant racist and they're too fricking pussy to have them use the word "Black person" or "chink" without censoring it.
You also rarely (if ever) see things like rape, incest, or anything deemed too problematic. Fricking dark fantasy in comics nowadays is completely toothless and gay because there are things comic artists either can't or don't want to depict.
Sitting here and acting like it's just e-girl is such a pathetic fricking cope it makes me sick.
8 months ago
Anonymous
All of those things have been in comics.
It's odd arguing this with you here, but then you get all these comic book readers decrying someone like Alan Moore and Garth Ennis for including those very things in their comics, to the point that this is all that's brought up when discussing their comics, or the only things they keep in mind.
This whole thing is frustrating.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>All of those things have been in comics
Anon, use your eyes.
We're not talking about "old" comics and fricking Alan Moore shit that everyone has already read.
Everyone has already read The Boys and shit like that, bringing up the same 5 fricking comics that everyone's already read and going "noooo, look at this shit from 2 decades ago, we're still edgy and cool!" is getting fricking old.
In case you haven't noticed, this thread is about indie comics, even mainstay edgy shit that people post on Cinemaphile like The Furry Trap is over a fricking decade old.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>everyone has already read
That's false, but I did go off topic. I was responding to the "never" part of the argument, which isn't the case.
I CONCEDE, because I'm very drunk and it seems I lost the plot somewhere.
And sadly, you're right.
The US is in a dark place (and I'm not just talking about up the butthole of a certain population), and these reminder threads don't do much good.
As I said, this whole thing is frustrating.
>That's what happens
And that's bad. It needs not to happen at all for people to feel free to create what they want. Creator censorship only makes the problem worse, so don't creators to censor themselves, tell those morons to shut up instead and accept that not wanting blacks is perfectly okay.
You're preaching to the choir.
>he told white people to segregate themselves from black people >that's supposed to be the worst
..do americans not believe in freedom of association or what?
The situation is pretty fricked, but it's mostly the fact that it's publicly reprimanded that makes it seem like it's all Americans.
A good portion of the population agree with him.
8 months ago
Anonymous
This. Manga made by women for women is full of women who love being raped by their love interest, American women who wrote the same (Twilight and 50SOG) made a huge success but sjws screeched so much everyone just makes bland, boring unsuccessful shit that fails. It only expanded to men's media from there and now everything is shit.
8 months ago
Anonymous
You gotta look at small press. Johnny Ryan gets away with all that shit.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Why do people here hate gay people in comics but want to see incest in comics? >inb4 because incest is hot
So doest that mean that people here don't have any actual stance on anything besides "I wanna see things that make me coom"?
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Why do people here hate gay people in comics but want to see incest in comics?
I think the question is why is showing gay people okay but showing incest is problematic?
8 months ago
Anonymous
Because incest has quick observable negative effects on healthy reproduction. Nobody cares if two guys don't reproduce, but everyone can look at an inbred freak and wish that thing never existed.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Because incest has quick observable negative effects on healthy reproduction.
So does homosexuality, ie. no one reproduces and the population dies out.
Just be honest and say you think it's icky.
8 months ago
Anonymous
False equivalence. Homosexuality existing in a society doesn't mean no one reproduces. It just means some portion of the populace doesn't reproduce, which doesn't harm the population that does. Incest existing in a society means some portion of the populace shits up their gene pool, with observable negative results, which does objective harm to the population, because the inbred person may then breed with someone else and frick their genes as well, etc.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Homosexuality existing in a society doesn't mean no one reproduces.
And incest doesn't have a 100% guarantee of producing unhealthy offspring.
You might as well make the same argument about women over 45 giving birth if all you care about is the health of the offspring.
Again, just be honest and say you think it's icky.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Again, just be honest and say you think it's icky
Only if you're honest about wanting it because it makes your dick hard.
8 months ago
Anonymous
I'm actually more into the psychological torment of abuse angle and watching a character fall to pieces over either the guilt of an incestuous relationship or the immense betrayal of being preyed upon sexually by someone they trusted.
It's less that it makes my dick hard and more that it makes the dick in my brain hard.
Women over 45 giving birth is generally looked down upon, isn't it?
Psychologically, I believe most people evolved to have a natural subconscious aversion to incest for this very reason.
>Women over 45 giving birth is generally looked down upon, isn't it?
Not enough to stop it from being depicted in media, no.
In fact, it's depicted in media far more than ever nowadays.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>It's less that it makes my dick hard and more that it makes the dick in my brain hard.
No difference
8 months ago
Anonymous
Spoken like someone who's never experienced either.
8 months ago
Anonymous
That doesn't make any sense
8 months ago
Anonymous
I'm saying you've got no sense of imagination.
It's not about "ugh, incest hot," it's about being exposed to and empathizing with the emotions of the characters in the story. Just like when you read a book like A Child Called It or The Color Purple.
[...]
[...]
Let me put it this way: you're very unlikely to publish a successful manga set in a real-world country that isn't Japan, any of its neighbors or maybe US. Most people on the market won't be interested in it. There are specific cultural norms and expectations everywhere.
>you're very unlikely to publish a successful manga set in a real-world country that isn't Japan, any of its neighbors or maybe US.
Eden - It's an Endless World
8 months ago
Anonymous
Incest is definitely in comics in a non-sexy way though so I fail to see your point.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>In fact, it's depicted in media far more than ever nowadays.
Name 5 times.
I'm saying you've got no sense of imagination.
It's not about "ugh, incest hot," it's about being exposed to and empathizing with the emotions of the characters in the story. Just like when you read a book like A Child Called It or The Color Purple.
[...] >you're very unlikely to publish a successful manga set in a real-world country that isn't Japan, any of its neighbors or maybe US.
Eden - It's an Endless World
>It's not about "ugh, incest hot," it's about being exposed to and empathizing with the emotions of the characters in the story.
First, you pretty much said above "ugh, the character's suffering is so hot", so you do read it for some sort of fetish-like satisfaction. Second, I don't see you talking about "empathizing with the emotions" of all the gay autobiographical indie comic creators. >inb4 because it's boring and unappealing
As opposed to incest to most people.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Name 5 times.
Game of Thrones
Star Trek Picard
Wheel of Time
The Walking Dead
The Sopranos
It's pretty normal for American media to depict women giving birth at older ages where they're more likely to produce unhealthy offspring.
In fact, I'm pretty sure it's a plot point in The Sopranos. >Second, I don't see you talking about "empathizing with the emotions" of all the gay autobiographical indie comic creators.
Because they're boring.
If they weren't boring I *would* read and empathize with them, I literally mentioned an autobiography in my earlier post (A Child Called It). You'd know that if you ever picked up a fricking book before. >As opposed to incest to most people.
Uhh, I don't think most people think "boring" when they think of incest.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>now more than ever >posts a bunch of old ass series excluding Picard
8 months ago
Anonymous
The only one of those series I'd consider "old" is The Sorpanos.
And Wheel of Time is literally still ongoing and probably the newest show on that list, and don't give me that "i-it's based on an old book!" shit because the show is nothing like the books.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Both Game of Thrones and Wheel of Time are from the 90s. That's old. And I doubt Wheel of Time is drastically different. Jordan already had tons of "woke" shit in the books
8 months ago
Anonymous
>And I doubt Wheel of Time is drastically different.
Okay, so you haven't watched it.
Typical for a moron on Cinemaphile, most of you don't know shit about anything outside of superheros.
8 months ago
Anonymous
What is so different? I read the books and they were trash so why would I watch the show?
8 months ago
Anonymous
You shouldn't, you should stick to capeshit, it's where you fit in best.
8 months ago
Anonymous
lol
I don't read capeshit, but Wheel of Time is no better. Enjoy your braid tugging and skirt smoothing
8 months ago
Anonymous
Women over 45 giving birth is generally looked down upon, isn't it?
Psychologically, I believe most people evolved to have a natural subconscious aversion to incest for this very reason.
>Like the clown in Ed the Happy Clown that has alternate universe Ronald Reagan's head as a penis glans, and the only way to return the head to the body is for the clown to frick the ass of a corpse that can't stop shitting.
There is nothing fun about this it's just awful and gross.
You want weird plots? Here's your "kino" weird plot, by none other than Kevin Smith too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man/Black_Cat:_The_Evil_that_Men_Do
The guy that was functionally Mysterio at the time randomly being raped by his brother and having the power to teleport heroin into people's hearts is pretty weird, yeah. As well as the sheer amount of gratuitous rape and drug usage in a Spider-Man comic. It's not the craziest shit ever, but it's definitely out there. Putting it here to say that "wild" shit is not always good writing.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Gay rape isn't weird, it's just gay.
The teleporting heroin thing is mildly weird, but only mildly.
That's only weird by capeshit standards, since capeshit is for children.
Can I write an a comic with an all-white cast in america, and when someone inevitably asks me why are there no blacks in my comic, can I say "I don't want black people in my comic!" ?
Why do you not want black people in your comics? >Because I don't understand black culture >Because I'd get called a racist for writing black people >Because I don't like black people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Masterpiece_Theater not manga but...come on really anon.
All have Asian-coded characters and borrow from Japanese culture. >inb4 muh coded
Yes, this term is autistic and overused, but the gist of it is that all these characters are supposed to be Asians in the eyes of the intended Eastern audience.
8 months ago
Anonymous
You're moronic.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>All have Asian-coded characters
Ufrickingwotm8?
Yes a book written in US or England and got an anime later
IS ASIAN CODED
kys.
Let me put it this way: you're very unlikely to publish a successful manga set in a real-world country that isn't Japan, any of its neighbors or maybe US. Most people on the market won't be interested in it. There are specific cultural norms and expectations everywhere.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Kek ok. >Only 1 part of the series is in Japan.
8 months ago
Anonymous
JoJo is just shonen character archetypes with a different coat of paint. None of the JoJos resemble any real British person more than an average shonen protagonist does.
I'm saying you've got no sense of imagination.
It's not about "ugh, incest hot," it's about being exposed to and empathizing with the emotions of the characters in the story. Just like when you read a book like A Child Called It or The Color Purple.
[...] >you're very unlikely to publish a successful manga set in a real-world country that isn't Japan, any of its neighbors or maybe US.
Eden - It's an Endless World
Okay, I'll give you Eden, it does sound interesting. Still probably a minority on the market, because most Japanese naturally want to read about the Japanese.
Vinland Saga
Kingdom
>Vinland Saga
The premise sounds interesting, but the bishonen prettyboy protag on the cover makes me think it's another JoJo situation.
And Kingdom is about China, a neighboring country.
8 months ago
Anonymous
If you haven't heard of either Eden or Vinland Saga, you are clueless about the market.
8 months ago
Anonymous
I mean, since you could only come up with a handful of examples of what I'm talking about, I'm willing to trust my common sense and keep believing most Japenese aren't keen on reading about something alien to their culture. And neither are Americans.
8 months ago
Anonymous
As stated before, you're moronic.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Vinland Saga
Kingdom
8 months ago
Anonymous
>All have Asian-coded characters
Ufrickingwotm8?
8 months ago
Anonymous
Yes a book written in US or England and got an anime later
IS ASIAN CODED
kys.
8 months ago
Anonymous
ATLA was created in the US and yet it's undeniably Asian-coded.
Gay rape isn't weird, it's just gay.
The teleporting heroin thing is mildly weird, but only mildly.
That's only weird by capeshit standards, since capeshit is for children.
By that logic the Jujutsu Kaisen thing isn't weird either, just gay and troony. Ane besides, Bakitards bring up their gay rape all the time as an example of "weirdness", though. Not to mention I don't see what is "adult" about either of those.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Ane besides, Bakitards bring up their gay rape all the time as an example of "weirdness", though.
Uhh no, the weird parts of Baki are shit like pic related and all the insane dudebro science.
The gay rape and "I have so much testosterone that every other man is a woman in my eyes" is the fricking moronic and funny parts of Baki.
Can I write an a comic with an all-white cast in america, and when someone inevitably asks me why are there no blacks in my comic, can I say "I don't want black people in my comic!" ?
People aren't allowed to freely make comics about what they like without having forced diversity shoved in even when they don't want it
That's the real taboo in this shithole
>Ichi the Killer
Meh. Crossed exists, but it's nothing to write home about.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Crossed and Ichi The Killer are nothing alike though. Stick to Spider-man, lil guy.
8 months ago
Anonymous
They're both about ultraviolence. But Crossed is so mediocre it makes ultraviolence dull and boring.
8 months ago
Anonymous
That's like saying Batman, Spider-man, Superman, Dr. Strange and Ultramega are the same because they fight evil doers. And that's actually far more accurate than saying Crossed and Ichi The Killer are the same because "ultraviolence lol". Stick to capeshit.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>capeshit is all the same
It kinda is.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Sure is, but then if I also mention some pseudo capeshit from Image like Ultramega or something someone's gonna shit his pants with rage.
Didn't some webtoon just get pulled from the site for having a character call someone else "homie?"
And it was censored too, which makes it even funnier.
Yes. It's independent publishing. You can put out whatever you want. People may not buy it though
The biggest problem in US comics that kills variety is finding funding. Lets say you got someone who wants to make a comic like that, and even draw it well and not some stick figure fantagraphics bullshit >Image won't take it, doesn't seem like it has movie potential >Darkhorse won't take it, not their style >Boom is license crap >dynamite is boomer crap >Fantagraphics is seatle hipster shit
Sure, you could try and fund it yourself it who'll pay?
>The only people indie comies and zines appeal to are tranarchists
/Thread.
Even if the japs don't make the deepest works, one look beyond the Shonen Jump publishing's and you'll find a plethora of different ideas, from historical retellings, to fighting series, to crime, etc.
Even Garo was mostly people working and flexing their ability to make an atmosphere or conceptual short story. >Pick up American indie magazine
BOY I FRICKING LOVE
LOVE
RANDOM ROBERT CRUMB MEGG MOGG AND OWL STONER RIP OFF SCOTT PILGRIM STONER SHIT SLICE OF LIFE ABOUT DEAD END GROUP OF LOSERS
I LOVE AUTOBIOGRAPHICALS ABOUT TRANNIES
At best you get fujo fiction for and by women about mythology, it's never not fantasy or mythology.
And Europe? Similar slice of life schlock, it's leagues above cape shit, but unlike Japan or America, the best advice I can give Europeans is simple:
Stop making realistic comics. Get out of your feudal peasant mindset that makes you farm or work all day then go home to play Tractor Simulator 2023, and make something off the wall and balls out.
Anyway that picture was based off the 80s, the first wave of the Japan anime and manga boom caused indie comics to actually stop the Robert Crumb shit for just a moment to publish stuff about American Samurai going to bars to slash would be rapists, or cave women out of ice working as detectives, it wasn't great, hell most of it was just the comic equivalent of B movies, but it was trying, but instead of leading anywhere that market rapidly died out and got replaced by the troony shit we know today, as if the Western comic market refuses to adapt, even before they just got Disney and Blackrock ESG subsidies, they actively refused to improve or change instead of just using gimmicks to make money.
>Stop making realistic comics. Get out of your feudal peasant mindset that makes you farm or work all day then go home to play Tractor Simulator 2023, and make something off the wall and balls out.
Or how about you grow up and start enjoying things with actual thought put into their worldbuilding and internal logic rather than cheap flashy spectacly for <100 IQs
You would agree with them if you were forced to animate Minions and the Emoji Movie for your entire career and barely get any acknowledgment for it.
The best part about manga is that it appeals to niche fetishism you arent allowed to write about in america, and sometimes cool anime like penguindrum come out
The only people indie comies and zines appeal to are tranarchists
>forced to animate Minions and the Emoji Movie for your entire career >forced
Nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to apply for jobs they don't want. What a stupid take.
If you're an animator and want a consistent source of income, you are forced to take whatever you can get.
And regardless, if they quit and try to make their own stuff that they like, then people like you will complain they are not bowing to the mob enough and "hate the idea of something that appeals to the broader audience".
Almost all of the American comic companies are moronic. DC/Marvel capeshit has its obvious problems, but even outside of the cape multiverse shitshow, Bill Willingham just decided to make Fables public domain since DC was trying to steal the IP rights from him for 20 years just like they did with Moore and Watchmen. The indie publishers aren't doing much better either. 66% of Dark Horse's sales are coming from manga (which is 1% of their output), IDW is outright dying, Image is just TV/movie pitches, and the others are barely known. Not to mention that all of these publishers are stuck in LCS hell while manga is making all of their money in bookstores and digital.
>Not to mention that all of these publishers are stuck in LCS hell while manga is making all of their money in bookstores and digital.
All the other publishers do sell digital and in bookstores(the latter very likely since before you were born), that isn't enough.
homie, have you seen the disparity in the offerings? In the major bookstores here, the GNs are usually limited to one, maybe two cluttered shelves while manga has two neatly kept AISLES dedicated to them. Viz's entire catalogue with same day release as the Japanese print version is also available for just 3 dollars a month compared to Marvel (10 dollars plus wait time for new releases) and DC (8 dollars plus wait time for new releases).
>the GNs are usually limited to one, maybe two cluttered shelves while manga has two neatly kept AISLES dedicated to them.
Anon, that's an effect, not a cause.
Retail stocks what sells, if one product sells more than another then the former is what gets stocked, it's that simple.
Absolutely wrong. Chester Brown, Charles Burns, Crumb, Spain, S Clay WIlson, Woodring, Hernandez Bros, Clowes, the list is nearly endless. It will take you years just to read L & R. Plus there is constantly a crop of new cartoonists who do great stuff: Benji Nate for example.
Sux to be you, frankly, if you can't find good stuff to read.
Since when did the Hernandez bros became "white haters"? Your brain is filled with fake "culture war" shit started by the small hats.
You MUST be white, too bad your race is going extinct eh? Bet you get hardon for black girls but you can't even approach them.
The distribution for indies is fricked up and heavily policed for shit that is NOT popularity with the audience.
BS, there are tons of companies that will print your book and today you can make it digital and sell it yourself.
>BS, there are tons of companies that will print your book and today you can make it digital and sell it yourself.
Distribution and marketplace. Access to conventions. Self publishing isn't a fricking substitute for infrastructure. Manga has an entire spectrum from 100 percent digital hikikomori on DLsite to comicet that leads all the way to Shonen fricking jump.
>This garbage that looks like something made by a 15 year old with BPD
No, this looks like something a 30 year old catlady born in Finland, with her hymen still in tact draws like
8 months ago
Anonymous
>still in tact
"Intact" is one word.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>with her hymen still in tact draws like
Do I need to have a stroke to understand this?
>Since when did the Hernandez bros became "white haters"? Your brain is filled with fake "culture war" shit started by the small hats. >You MUST be white, too bad your race is going extinct eh? Bet you get hardon for black girls but you can't even approach them.
breasts and action, T'n'A, are largely absent and/or done in a piss poor fashion, and that's what sells best.
Manga is also much easier to read and usually made to be generally appealing. Indie comics tend to be very personal and hence a little too niche and a little too ugly.
>Manga is also much easier to read and usually made to be generally appealing. Indie comics tend to be very personal and hence a little too niche and a little too ugly.
This right here.
Since when did the Hernandez bros became "white haters"? Your brain is filled with fake "culture war" shit started by the small hats.
You MUST be white, too bad your race is going extinct eh? Bet you get hardon for black girls but you can't even approach them.
[...]
BS, there are tons of companies that will print your book and today you can make it digital and sell it yourself.
Are these supposed to be examples of GOOD indie comics?
lf you can't appreciate Frank then maybe comics aren't for you.
Maybe read a book
8 months ago
Anonymous
There are a lot of comics I love and appreciate: Golden Kamuy, Vagabond, The Fable, Jagaaaaaaaaan, etc.
Indie comics either look like they're from a newspaper or some dumbass dyke
8 months ago
Anonymous
>I only like maga.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Finding good ones is a problem. Below is a list of some I enjoyed.
Children: Garfield, Peanuts
Superhero: Society Supreme, Watchmen, Martial Law, Brat Pack
Slice of Life: Meg, Mog and Owl (adult); Dilbert, Boondocks
Historical: Maus, My Friend Dahmer
Edgy: Crow
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Maus
Would you like to talk about the Monsanto family and the things they owned?
8 months ago
Anonymous
Ships. They owned ships. And cotton. Tons of farming equipment, of course.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Guess we're gonna let that slide. Real happy we tore down that statue of that abolitionist though.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Malcolm X is extra spicy because he was the only black man with working israelitedar
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Buzzwords
8 months ago
Anonymous
Woodring is nothing special. Imri Sakabashira does similar stuff but completely blows him out of the water.
8 months ago
Anonymous
I like both, but Woodring is better.
8 months ago
Anonymous
No. Not even close.
8 months ago
Anonymous
It's true. Woodring is better.
He taps into that weirdness like no one else except maybe Luigi Serafini and certain fine artists. If you know other similar artists (aside from Tiger Tateishi, Luigi Serafini, and Artzybasheff, whom I also like a lot) please name them. I love this stuff.
Frank is. The other one looks kinda heartless.
Indies are often a descent into a cold, foreign state for me. Some are like old memories. Just floating in another state of being for a while.
If you could wrap that around a tight, cohesive story, you'd have gold, but it's pretty hard to do as well as create atmosphere.
no it won't. i picked up all the volumes that have been printed last year and read all of it. it was mediocre
Since when did the Hernandez bros became "white haters"? Your brain is filled with fake "culture war" shit started by the small hats.
You MUST be white, too bad your race is going extinct eh? Bet you get hardon for black girls but you can't even approach them.
[...]
BS, there are tons of companies that will print your book and today you can make it digital and sell it yourself.
>white haters
the brother that writes the titty monsters began the story with some photographer that wanted to take photos of the rural town they were in. rejecting him means the people of the town didn't want foreign gawkers. thing is, if white people want to learn more about the world and other people in it, that's the opposite of racism and keeping white people from learning about you means you're the one that's racist
Most of these are painfully boring. I like me some Burns and Clowes is hit or miss but Chester Brown is just... ugh, never really got into Crumb, just wasn't for me, Woodrig is kinda just doing the same thing and yet his (small) fanbase never gets bored of it, Hernandez Bros are just not something I'm interested in, a long running soap might be impressive in that they could keep it going for so long but it's not the type of storytelling I'm attracted to and that being "things that age with you". I find Tomine to be a bore, he's decent but nothing special. Oh and I really don't like Ware.
Are any of these guys good at action or fighting?
Recently read Teppu, about WMMA. Not much explicit sexualization, and also not afraid to show the women getting hurt and hurting each other. Realistic in tone and style with great art for the action.
So many indie comics I've tried out have failed the action side of things. I don't really care about some artist's traumatic life that they're using comics as therapy for. Nor do I want page upon page of talking heads.
So action, action, action. That is what I'm interested in. Any names I should chase for that?
If you want fights just reading fighting manga. Don't play dumb.
I find fighting manga incredibly tedious myself, unless it's really wild or the art is different. Instead of talking heads, it's flailing bodies framed in speedlines. When they do talk, it's the most inane shit in the world, like "A sweep..." from your pic there, or "H-he's fast!".
Teppu is super boring to me, on top of the art looking kind of shitty.
You have zero reason to be on Cinemaphile. You won't find what you're after here.
>I find fighting manga incredibly tedious myself
That's fair, however 99,9% of the world wants stories about superpowers to have long and fun fights and I'm sure you can understand why.
How am I playing dumb?
Action is just as important as drama or surrealism or whatever else.
I am asking in good faith whether there are any action indie comics that are worth reading on the premise of their action and how it is conveyed.
I don't care about stories dealing with depression or suffering from mental illnesses. I find most character drama banal and boring. I don't need aesops for grade school children.
So I ask again, are there any good action or fighting indie authors that I should be checking out?
If fighting and action is inane, what do you think is good? What draws you to comics? Drama? Soap opera?
>How am I playing dumb?
You're not, he's just baiting. 99% of american comic books are action, and the 1% are those boring urbanite losers writing autobios. You look at what Marvel, DC and Image publish and it's action series, Boom and Dynamite license old action cartoons and tv series and Dark Horse is mostly Hellboy which is action. But of course he's gonna be butthurt because despite the fact that he reads action series, he thinks it's good that these action series have boring and uninspired action scenes because action is immature... even though he's reading mostly action series himself.
Western comics are rarely good at action unless inspired by manga, and even then they don't measure up. You already know this. >Action is just as important as drama or surrealism or whatever else >or surrealism or whatever else
Ok. >If fighting and action is inane
There's action, and fighting is a subcategory of action. It's the fighting I find tedious, unless it's wild or unique.
I read western comics for a long list of reasons, and fighting and depression are not included. Certain types of mental illness can have entertaining depictions in comics, but you won't be into those.
I read manga for the action, cute characters, and breasts, and a some of the same reasons I read western comics.
There's no need for you to hang out in Cinemaphile. I wish you the best, but don't come back.
Something that i think doesn't get talked about enough in this context is manga genres.
People mention that manga has a ton of variety and appeals to different demographics and there is something for everyone, but the truth of the matter is that the simple fact that we know these genres *by name* is extremely useful.
Like, there is no western comics equivalent of the sheer versatility and usefulness of manga's shonen/shojou/etc genre titles, and then you break it down further with sports shonen/battle shonen/mahou shojou, etc. The genre branding is so strong that you can you can very easily recommend someone new works based on one or two things that you know they already enjoyed, and you will probably be right about it.
Western comics you have cape comics and... non cape comics. Sometimes there are 'adult comics' or 'graphic novels', but none of this actually fricking tells you anything about the comics in question. There are no handy tags and genre titles that can distinguish Bones from The Metabarons without having to fricking describe the comic's premise.
We take it for granted in manga, and I really do think the lack of a similar framework in western comics limits discussion and hurts sales.
>There are no handy tags and genre titles that can distinguish Bones from The Metabarons without having to fricking describe the comic's premise.
What do you mean? Just describe them in terms of genre tags. Nothing's stopping you.
>How am I playing dumb?
You're not, he's just baiting. 99% of american comic books are action, and the 1% are those boring urbanite losers writing autobios. You look at what Marvel, DC and Image publish and it's action series, Boom and Dynamite license old action cartoons and tv series and Dark Horse is mostly Hellboy which is action. But of course he's gonna be butthurt because despite the fact that he reads action series, he thinks it's good that these action series have boring and uninspired action scenes because action is immature... even though he's reading mostly action series himself.
You've got a gripe with someone. Don't take it out on me.
You're free to return to Cinemaphile too, since you haven't a clue about western comics. Good luck.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>You've got a gripe with someone
With baiting tards such as yourself.
What if you mixed fighting with depression and suffering from mental illness? Just a guy trying to punch the frick out of his mental demons that abound from some of the most fricked up baggage the world can offer and how he fares with that.
Wait no that's Berserk.
>a small semi independent studio with a team of 10 professional artists, one writer and one editor backed by a trillion dolalr industry
vs >a single amateur doing it for free
Manga give it's creators a lot of autonomy unlike Marvel but they are still products from a big company.
and the manga artists get paid like shit and they have 10 people helping them do a manga. It's a conveyor line business, churning the same endless bishonen or other endless shit. Remember Sturgeon's law: 95% of all of it is shit.
My homie what the frick in My Hero Academia or Spy Family is trying to be """artsy"""? Anime and manga are on the whole some of the least pretentious media you will ever get.
The truth is that post 90s american subculture is moronic and non americans don't want to read your soviet level of shameless political propaganda for the American Democratic Party
Even the fricking Chinese are less shameless than you on shilling their leaders.
>The truth is that post 90s american subculture is moronic and non americans don't want to read your soviet level of shameless political propaganda for the American Democratic Party
This is also part of it.
American comics have basically 0 international appeal whatsoever, and with good reason.
Frankly, most American comics have 0 appeal outside of the coastal cities in America.
If you think Big2 capeshit comics are bad, just wait until you start reading some indie comics. Majority of them are pretty terrible with only a few exceptions that are readable.
it comes down to marketing, that's all.
webtoons got popular because of their centralized distribution and marketing.
Western indie comics can do the same.
Additionally, Western artists aren't trying to appeal to the same demographics Eastern comics do.
>Western artists aren't trying to appeal to the same demographics Eastern comics do.
So who are they trying to attract? It sounds like they are trying to attract a very specific minority.
>gets zero marketing >only distributed in specialty stores no one goes to >only chances of marketing are social media ads no one reads or specialty conventions barely anyone goes to outside of the very big ones >DUHHH WHO ARE THEY TRYING TO ATTRACT LOL
People don't want to admit that the issue was never about accessibility or "starting at 1" or any of that shit, but content, and indie comics don't solve the content issue, same as cape comics.
If the content isn't interesting to people then nothing else matters.
Part of the problem is finding quality stuff.
Manga lots of companies (and subsidiaries!) devoted to having multiple series of quality (sometimes of the same theme or genre) so if you find a series you like, it's usually just looking for more stuff from that company.
In the west, the only companies an average person even knows is DC and Marvel, and the belief is that's just capeshit. Maybe Archie Comics, but people just assume that's pure, unadulterated Archie issue after issue.
People who know comics can you companies, but what the publisher produces is all over the place.
IDW and Image comics, you're likely already familiar with the series you're interested in.
Dark Horse publishes everything under the son and Boom! is known for licenses and what else?
Most people not familiar with comics already don't know what to look for or where and it's too daunting, so they just go to manga.
Not to mention, just the normalities of American comics makes people weary. Most manga you can start at Chapter 1 but I had a friend asking me what Super Man #1 to start at and I had to research, because both the 2016 and 2018 iterations both start in the middle of arcs appearing to be the start.
Plus, at least in the west (assuming you don't pirate) manga is just the better value. I get a whole new volume for under $10, but a single new issue of a comic is $5. For the same content of comics, you're looking for $20+ used, and that's for mainstream capeshit. Used comics you can find cheaper, but same with manga.
There's just a branding issue with minimal effort to make it mainstream. It's why people still believe the same cliches about comics in media all this time later, despite most of us knowing it's not true. (Like how all video game references are bad pixel art called 8-bit, even if it's not, with bleeps and boops)
I love comics but there's a lot of issues with the industry. Enough to fill a whole tradeback.
>In the west, the only companies an average person even knows is DC and Marvel, and the belief is that's just capeshit. Maybe Archie Comics, but people just assume that's pure, unadulterated Archie issue after issue.
I think that's less the case in the upcomming generations. I know most of Cinemaphile doesn't have or deal with kids (thank god), but even my now 18 year old nieces grew up reading scholastic graphic novels and other kids/YA aimed comics. Not even manga. Marvel/DC to them are media companies.
>but even my now 18 year old nieces grew up reading scholastic graphic novels and other kids/YA aimed comics.
I hate to tell you this anon, but that applies to most kids.
I also grew up reading Scholastic GNs and kid's comics (and also newspaper comics, even brought them to school every day), and then I moved on to manga when I was a teenager.
I didn't get into comics outside of kid's comics/manga until I was in my 20s, and even then I only a few of them (personally I don't like cape comics or most indie comics for that matter).
>I hate to tell you this anon, but that applies to most kids.
Why would you hate to tell me that? I'm fully aware. My point is that kids don't think of comics as just DC/Marvel superhero stuff, they're exposed to other comics in an earlier age.
reason is crap is because of how copyright developed in the US, all the shit that copyright does was EXPERIMENTED and actively fought against/with via comics and other works versus manga which basically had only one or two main issues they had to deal with(having foreigners have complete control with censorship led to largest comicon/fanfiction/fancreation culture to allow locals to sidestep censorship and create a massive short run culture which led to loads of small/large time productions and cheap/well trained talent everywhere
versus marvel/DC having IP/content that HAD TO BE constantly produced/reintroduced all the time to keep the copyright both cheaply(and create so many different interpretations of spiderman/batman/superman that people NEW to the genre would have to have encyclopedic knowledge of the genry JUST TO gain access to old/new content
aka someone likes spiderman? now you have to dig through esoteric backlogs of spiderman, try to wade through various different artists/writers and various different combo's, years, additions, specials, limited runs, and HOW you can get access to said publications and how they all relate to each other
versus a manga that generally only has one type/edition(maybe an nice omnibus edition that has the entire series in one book(s)
coupled with said copyrights destroying googles ability to serve you useful info/sources for actual content
copyright has destroyed not only fanbases, but future fanbases, the ability of past/present talent to make a living, and access to modern talent/news/info
I feel like you have some interesting knowledge to share but you're not very good at expressing it
I don't get what the short run culture has to do with censorship
>Manga lots of companies (and subsidiaries!) devoted to having multiple series of quality (sometimes of the same theme or genre) so if you find a series you like, it's usually just looking for more stuff from that company.
I say this every time there's a comparison, but the digest format helps immensely with this, and it helps new authors get their foot in the door. Dozens of stories are serialized in thick magazines, all together. So even if you only grabbed this week's Shonen Jump just to read One Piece, you might discover something completely new in the process.
It's also printed on cheap paper in b&w to keep the cost down, so it's still affordable despite its size. The tankobon releases come out later for fans and collectors.
Of course, manga magazines are also themed around target audiences. WSJ is geared towards teenaged boys, so you see a lot of action and the occasional romcom. Doing this means you know what you're going to get instead of getting blindsided by some awful idea editorial forced like having Batman attend a pride rally.
The Western equivalent would be along the lines of if DC released a JLA magazine containing the stories for all their mainline heroes once a month, and still managed to keep the price under like $10. WSJ costs about 250yen for I think 500 pages, for comparison.
>Manga lots of companies (and subsidiaries!) devoted to having multiple series of quality (sometimes of the same theme or genre) so if you find a series you like, it's usually just looking for more stuff from that company.
I say this every time there's a comparison, but the digest format helps immensely with this, and it helps new authors get their foot in the door. Dozens of stories are serialized in thick magazines, all together. So even if you only grabbed this week's Shonen Jump just to read One Piece, you might discover something completely new in the process.
It's also printed on cheap paper in b&w to keep the cost down, so it's still affordable despite its size. The tankobon releases come out later for fans and collectors.
Of course, manga magazines are also themed around target audiences. WSJ is geared towards teenaged boys, so you see a lot of action and the occasional romcom. Doing this means you know what you're going to get instead of getting blindsided by some awful idea editorial forced like having Batman attend a pride rally.
The Western equivalent would be along the lines of if DC released a JLA magazine containing the stories for all their mainline heroes once a month, and still managed to keep the price under like $10. WSJ costs about 250yen for I think 500 pages, for comparison.
The manga industry figured out the magic of running a lot of similar stories, that are all technically different franchises from each other.
This lets them maintain a target market, without the burden of legacy.
Like the equivalent for the big two would be if Superman ended in the 50s or early 60s.
Then he was replaced by a story centered around an incredibly powerful morally good hero called Ultima Man in the late 60s before it ended in the early 80s.
Who was in turn replaced by another extremely strong hero who had a romance with a spritely girl, named Paragon, before it finished in the mid 90s.
Etc. Etc.
Each different but the same. Just like how every new authorship of Superman does something different, but the same, as any before them.
But, importantly, differentiated by name from the others so that new readers feel entirely free to start anywhere, regardless of the true legacy.
I don't know if The Big Two could do the same today if they tried it. Or if it is too late.
Something that i think doesn't get talked about enough in this context is manga genres.
People mention that manga has a ton of variety and appeals to different demographics and there is something for everyone, but the truth of the matter is that the simple fact that we know these genres *by name* is extremely useful.
Like, there is no western comics equivalent of the sheer versatility and usefulness of manga's shonen/shojou/etc genre titles, and then you break it down further with sports shonen/battle shonen/mahou shojou, etc. The genre branding is so strong that you can you can very easily recommend someone new works based on one or two things that you know they already enjoyed, and you will probably be right about it.
Western comics you have cape comics and... non cape comics. Sometimes there are 'adult comics' or 'graphic novels', but none of this actually fricking tells you anything about the comics in question. There are no handy tags and genre titles that can distinguish Bones from The Metabarons without having to fricking describe the comic's premise.
We take it for granted in manga, and I really do think the lack of a similar framework in western comics limits discussion and hurts sales.
One factor not often considered is that in Japan there's a larger variety of manga but most of it isn't brought over to the West because it doesn't even sell in Japan. For example Samurai 8 was made by the creator of Naruto but did so badly in Japan that it was canceled after 43 chapters (5 volumes). Had it not been written by Naruto's creator it would have vanished into the ether and never have been translated.
So when you look at translated manga you're seeing the best Japan has to offer, which is why manga seems higher quality than most comics.
Regarding indie comics they need a way for people to find the best ones, other than randomly looking at things in comic shows. Publishers/brands who focus on specific genres would help.
Viz has published a lot of canceled Jump manga so it's not just famous authors who get that treatment. It's definitely not just the best or most popular manga that gets translated. Not even including scanlations
There is one part of the manga formula that the west doesn't understand. It's pulp. We need to bring back serialised anthology magazines or similar publications. Hell, while it wouldn't solve everything it'd even work for capeshit. It'd be a lot easier to pick up a thicker book of "capeshit:sub-category fortnightly" than to get all the floppies. It would create more continuity and community around those sub-categories as well. The flexibility of pulp was that you could have a publication that didn't require long drawn out stories. It could have a month with nothing but one-shots but you'd still get what you paid for.
The Japanese manga distribution model is closest to the superior pulp model and thereby the most creatively vital model in the market. If the west retook their pulp roots they could in theory be more prominent than the half-measure solution japan has come to. That said there's more creative rot/drain in American than in Japan so there's only so much a model change can do without long term cultural/industrial shifts following or allowing for said changes to cement themselves.
Pulps died becuase paper bcame expensive, that's also why comics suffered their intial collapse in the 60s.
Digital pulps seem more effective but that involvs trying to convince people to buy non-real material weekly.
Again, it works in Japan right now. They just need to downscale rather than collapse. This means less saturation, which in an extremely fatigued market (see capeshit cinema) is a good thing anyway. There were lots and lots of pulps which did give more creative opportunities to people but ultimately the beloved and well known pulps are then what the major manga publications are today - the winner's circle.
Another major difference between the modern western model, Japan and Pulps is that Japan has a vibrant and still relatively unobstructed fan economy. You can produce independent stuff viably in big events. There are less legal restrictions on doing so because fan works are accepted as creatively independent endeavors. Cutting one's teeth on fan shit and later developing original settings after earning a following is the JP equivalent of running stories for smaller pulp pubs then eventually getting accepted into one of the better reputed magazines.
You are absolutely right that digital is by all metrics better but unfortunately our psychology doesn't really allow for that. If something wanted to mix it up it would first have to get stocked along with other magazines. It would need a physical release somewhere for people to see it as viable and dependable - to say nothing of the fact that there's still resistance for people paying for digital media (especially in this scene where people are more pirate happy/tech savy).
True, I've never seen I Hate Fairyland in a South American store. (Not Indie but you get the point)
Nothing that's already adapted or on a list of "Best comics ever" will ever get sold here, epecially cfloppies
Most of the popular manga isn't actually indie. It's distributed via major publishers.
Indie comics have a wide variety of quality but just because they're free from the restrictions of Marvel editorial doesn't mean they're good. And even if they are good, they're harder to distribute and don't have any official backing or advertisement.
And while I can't say with any certainty, I'd be willing to believe there's cultural differences between the people and distribution of Western indie comics and Japanese doujinshi. That could also be a factor.
>Most of the popular manga isn't actually indie. It's distributed via major publishers.
People on Cinemaphile have weird definitions for "indie."
I've seen people call Image fricking indie, which is baffling.
While there are plenty of valid cultural reasons behind westerrn comics and manga having differing levels of success, the most obvious one is that the east CONSTANTLY has animated show adaptations of their manga. There is at least one every few months and like half a dozen high profile shows airing mostly concurrently. This leads to a larger readership for manga as a medium
All the indie comics I've seen, the characters looked really ugly. While in manga, the characters look attractive and beautiful. Therefore, I choose to read manga and not indie comics.
manga is popular because it is the only medium left that still makes non woke stories that feature cool and heroic light skinned male characters and sexy, feminin female love intresst.
indie comic are just as woke as main stream comics with constant white men bashing, blackwashing of history and feminist propaganda wish is why people don‘t buy it
People hear about manga online and essentially have it advertised via anime. Manga sites and physical books point them to other manga. There's a pretty standard visual and narrative style to most manga so you know what you're getting.
None of this is true of indie comics. I love them, but there's just no way for anyone who isn't already a big western comics head to get into them.
It's never about if indie comics can be good or not, it's always indie comics don't cater to me the /misc/guy and instead cater to the Cinemaphileguy.
You don't give a rats arse about the quality just the politics and that makes you just as hypocritically guilty.
Anyway the real reason Japan has a thriving indie scene is becuase in the US fan-comics being sold are seen as a trademark violation that could legally froce the companies to lose the trademark. Coupled that with the lack of public comunting prior to phones where everyone could sit and read while travelling mean the market never developed and is never going.
Funny how you ignore all the other points to zoom in on the "chud posts". If I didn't know this place better I wouldn't suspect you were making those posts yourself.
He's not wrong though, there's plenty of indie comics that are good but all that typically gets brought up in these threads are you tards complaining about "MUH POLITICS" and then praising Manga for not having politics even though they do. You're practically outing yourself out as a homosexual who only reads Shonen garbage and even then can't read between the lines to notice the politics in it
This is thread is nothing but delusional weebs posting their shit takes.
Do you ever notice how it's the weebs coming to Cinemaphile and not the other way around? I guess there's some sort of inferiority complex involved, anime in its current form wouldn't have existed without Walt Disney, after all
Go on Cinemaphile and you can see how miserable everyone can get with the state of manga and anime.
Weebs only come to Cinemaphile because they'll get banned if they start shitposting too hard on Cinemaphile
It's less that they don't appeal to /misc/ and more that they don't appeal to anyone who isn't an American urbanite.
There's a reason why I can talk about manga with people all over the world but no one outside of America gives a single iota of a frick about your average American comic.
Yup. This one right here.
I care wheb two yuri lesbian girls ride robots and get married
I dont care about a troony going loony in the binny while in the middlle of a troony city.
Here's the problem, do you think the /misc/guy or the Cinemaphileguy has tastes closer to the average person when it comes to what they like in media?
The state of the comic industry kind of answers that questions.
>It's never about if indie comics can be good or not, it's always indie comics don't cater to me the /col/guy and instead cater to the /lgbt/guy.
Fixed, you homosexual.
Manga that gets a release outside jap it's the fruit of screening upon screening because in jap everything is up to popular vote to stay alive.
Indie comics, and comics in total, are almost beyond all of that.
Quality seems better only because we get the cream that rises to the top
>read an American comic/graphic novel that's not capeshit >it's either some degenerate LGBT shit retreading the same tired "concerns", or it actually is a standard story/adventure that shies away from anything sensational or interesting.
Manga is way less ideologically indulgent whilst also has no issue depicting all kinds of things honestly, even if it does so within obvious restraints
It's thankfully an issue that European comics don't have as much, but then you run into the issue of needing to get translations.
>Thread about why do people care about sells, it's pointless just read comics you enjoy and you would complain if it got popular anyways also comics are cheap medium so don't need a lot of sells, deleted after like ten posts >This thread still going.
Says lot about this board.
Because the american comic book industry is very unhealthy and it can no longer sustain unpopular comics. There used to be great comics being made... it's not a thing anymore. The american comic book industry is in such a rut that it cat only sustain terrible capeshit, awful licensed shit and movie pitch minis.
Why isn't there more American action comics, especially stuff taking influence from manga? France has it. You'd think with a generation that grew up with manga we'd see more artists doing cool action comics.
Lot of really good point ITT, one i haven't seen is the difference in perspective of artists east vs west. In the west artists are expected to push and challenge social expectations, as self-proclaimed sheperds of the masses. Of course, while also maintaining the strange sense of propriety for "mature content". Wokeness is the newest form of this, but western comics have been obsessed with seeming "mature" and "socially trangessive" for a long time now. In Japan it's understood that an artist is usually at the service of the readers, and should conform to the readers expectations. There are of course examples of the contrary, but those more exceptions than anything else.
said, American comics artists believe that violence is immature, and are obsessed with proving their comics are "more than just dudes in silly costumes punching each other, you guyz!". The funny thing is they always prove themselves to be even more immature by making about teenage drama, shipping, and political axe-grinding.
Cultural differences are at play here. Reading a comic on the Jap subway is a regular thing, but not in the states. Someone’s more likely to be listening to an audiobook or podcast during the commute, let alone reading something that ain’t a text.
It's been storytimed on Cinemaphile multiple times.
In fact, I immediately thought of it because someone in the Cinemaphilenfessions thread a few days ago said it convinced them they were trans, which I find hilarious.
Shut up.
This thread is an east vs west bait thread that pushes the narrative of all ondie comics being about trannies (which is plain wrong).
Your posts propogate this false narrative. It's just one (1) troony indie comic that was shilled by some anon. It's not popular or well known anywhere.
Reconsider your actions.
most western comics are abysmal at conveying dynamic action and motion, which means manga usually lends itself better to action driven stories.
a lot of indie comics are out there both in terms of art style and story, and often not in a good way because its made by a bunch of nerds or people in a subculture derived from punk culture. People dont want to look at ugly.
be that as it may, there's been two decades of manga being available and selling well in the US- where's all the manga influenced action? sure there's a few guys like Stotkoe, DWJ, Tradd Moore, etc, but you'd think there'd be more straight up Naruto imitators or something.
theres been more anime influences in animation, but its all derivative. There's a crisis in western art school where fewer and fewere teach classical art courses, but the ones that do are so classical they more or less stop at the modern period. It isnt at all geared toward comics or animation.
I think all those "serious" artists are not reading manga or watching anime.
This is thread is nothing but delusional weebs posting their shit takes.
Do you ever notice how it's the weebs coming to Cinemaphile and not the other way around? I guess there's some sort of inferiority complex involved, anime in its current form wouldn't have existed without Walt Disney, after all
>Do you ever notice how it's the weebs coming to Cinemaphile and not the other way around?
Anon, it's Cinemaphile.
Every board on Cinemaphile has weebs because it's a site created by weebs for weebs.
Hence why it literally copies its naming scheme from a Japanese website.
Why do you think the random board is called /b/ and not /r/, or the weapons board is called /k/ and not /w/?
Ignoring offtopic, bait/template and coom threads:
- on Cinemaphile I mostly see people discuss the shows/comics
- on Cinemaphile I mostly see people discuss the industry
Regardless of what you think the source of this is - board culture, moderation style, fandom health, fandom maturity, or inequal "cultural gravity" between two bodies of media - if industry comparisons pop up, I would expect them here.
>LLOOLLOOLLOLOLOLOOLLOLOOLLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOOLOLLOLOOLOLOLOLOLLOOLLOLOLOOLLOLOOLLOLOOLLOLOOLLOOLLLLOLOLOOLLOOLOLOLLOLOLOLOOLLOL >DUH MAHN-GUHH IZZ MOAR BETTERERERER DEN DUH CAWMIXX N BEE-CUHZZ UHV DUH SAY-YOAL-ZUH
Why do you fricktarded c**tnugget Cinemaphileutists come to this board if you hate Comics and Cartoons so much and love Anime and Manga so much?
Is it because you're an extremely severely mentally ill sociopath and the "precious" dopamine rush you get from violating Global Rule 3 by posting east vs west troll threads is the only thing preventing you from realizing that your life is absolutely worthless and killing yourself?
I demand you answer me.
Everyone else, report him as soon as possible and as much as possible for the greater good of this board.
Because indie comics still largely offer little in genre variety while also being largely filled with the same woke crap that made big two capeshit unbearable to read. You have to really dig to find good indies & dig even deeper to find great ones.
Lot of really good point ITT, one i haven't seen is the difference in perspective of artists east vs west. In the west artists are expected to push and challenge social expectations, as self-proclaimed sheperds of the masses. Of course, while also maintaining the strange sense of propriety for "mature content". Wokeness is the newest form of this, but western comics have been obsessed with seeming "mature" and "socially trangessive" for a long time now. In Japan it's understood that an artist is usually at the service of the readers, and should conform to the readers expectations. There are of course examples of the contrary, but those more exceptions than anything else.
Indie comics are, purposefully, hard to find. The industry in America is set up disproportionately to favor big name brands. The brands will typically buy out indie publishing that winds up getting marginally popular and essentially absorb them or shut them down.
These big publishing companies act essentially as monopolies. The comics industry is designed to keep the little guy out and to drown it out with as much crap garbage as possible.
The comics industry of America would do a lot better if it took on a similar structure to manga culture of Japan. Circulating its own manga volumes instead of trying to keep specific characters tied under one brand. But that will never easily happen in the west, because companies are obsessed with owning a character/story so completely and running it thoroughly in the ground for merch sales.
While not all manga is indie in Japan, Japan's manga culture has aspects of indie to it inherently due to how it's published. This intersects with Japans culture of not giving a shit about doujinshi and seeing it as free advertisement. The loosey-goosey application of copyright in these situations is very funny, given Japan does not have any fair use laws.
Compare this to America, which does have fair use laws, but is extremely paranoid about copyright infringement and seeks to copyright anything it can get its fricking hands on. A fanartist can get their indie fanfiction published and wind up becoming famous rather easily if their work is worth anything. It's part of how groups like CLAMP got big to begin with.
Contrast this with America, which has a fair use law, but is extremely paranoid about copyright infringement. Youre not going to see someone allowed to independently publish Homestuck fanfiction and make money off it here. Outside of the realm of fan content, you're also going to have a hard time finding or hearing about indie comics in general. This isn't even getting into the way censorship and other factors help to suppress creativity and support big publishers who have no interest in making anything good beyond bare bones capeshit.
T.endrant
Avatar had plenty of fan/porn comics because it was very popular (mainly by Palcomix). Sadly nothing has matched its popularity so the market is currently fragmented.
Though Star vs and Fairly Odd Parents did fairly well.
I always love these.
What was one of the most popular manga last month? >Oshi no Ko
Awesome, here is how that reads according to all the fat opinionated heffers and homosexuals of the world that infest publishers all over and influence their actions: >Having the girl be conventionally pretty is problematic >It is very problematic to have her killed off, like this is some women-in-refrigerators style writing sweaty >It has racial homogeneity which is definitely not OK >It sends kind of a weird message when a big part of the story is a guy being reincarnated as the son of a celebrity he idolized seeking revenge for both his death and the death of his 2nd mom >More of it should be about the sister and having her defy gender norms by not doing regressive things like being a pretty girly idol
Anyone can write My Hero Academia, but if you actually tried to publish that shit you're going to be called both unoriginal and a pedophile.
The unoriginal part is actually a problem because over here israelites crawl out of the wood work to try and sue your ass for any all character they think are too similar to the shit they have the rights to.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the incest.
Wait, Soul was actually good? This isn't you just baiting weebs. Sell me on that shit.
Soul was about a black man who wanted to play the piano and a ghost being impressed with mundane things. It might have been comfy but it was dull.
While not all manga is indie in Japan, Japan's manga culture has aspects of indie to it inherently due to how it's published. This intersects with Japans culture of not giving a shit about doujinshi and seeing it as free advertisement. The loosey-goosey application of copyright in these situations is very funny, given Japan does not have any fair use laws.
Compare this to America, which does have fair use laws, but is extremely paranoid about copyright infringement and seeks to copyright anything it can get its fricking hands on. A fanartist can get their indie fanfiction published and wind up becoming famous rather easily if their work is worth anything. It's part of how groups like CLAMP got big to begin with.
Contrast this with America, which has a fair use law, but is extremely paranoid about copyright infringement. Youre not going to see someone allowed to independently publish Homestuck fanfiction and make money off it here. Outside of the realm of fan content, you're also going to have a hard time finding or hearing about indie comics in general. This isn't even getting into the way censorship and other factors help to suppress creativity and support big publishers who have no interest in making anything good beyond bare bones capeshit.
T.endrant
Something that i think doesn't get talked about enough in this context is manga genres.
People mention that manga has a ton of variety and appeals to different demographics and there is something for everyone, but the truth of the matter is that the simple fact that we know these genres *by name* is extremely useful.
Like, there is no western comics equivalent of the sheer versatility and usefulness of manga's shonen/shojou/etc genre titles, and then you break it down further with sports shonen/battle shonen/mahou shojou, etc. The genre branding is so strong that you can you can very easily recommend someone new works based on one or two things that you know they already enjoyed, and you will probably be right about it.
Western comics you have cape comics and... non cape comics. Sometimes there are 'adult comics' or 'graphic novels', but none of this actually fricking tells you anything about the comics in question. There are no handy tags and genre titles that can distinguish Bones from The Metabarons without having to fricking describe the comic's premise.
We take it for granted in manga, and I really do think the lack of a similar framework in western comics limits discussion and hurts sales.
You can say this until you're blue in the face, but Cinemaphile would rather blame shit like "wokeness" and Twitter than anything that's actually real.
That and this board is obsessed with sales; you almost never see threads on Cinemaphile asking about why every indie game made by an American isn't making money like Zelda because it's a dumb fricking question.
>you almost never see threads on Cinemaphile asking about why every indie game made by an American isn't making money like Zelda because it's a dumb fricking question.
But you also don't see people on Cinemaphile trying to say that some shitty game flopped because people don't care about video games.
/v/'s industry is in a much better place than either of Cinemaphile's, even if only because of the indie scene and a few AAs picking up the slack.
I always love these.
What was one of the most popular manga last month? >Oshi no Ko
Awesome, here is how that reads according to all the fat opinionated heffers and homosexuals of the world that infest publishers all over and influence their actions: >Having the girl be conventionally pretty is problematic >It is very problematic to have her killed off, like this is some women-in-refrigerators style writing sweaty >It has racial homogeneity which is definitely not OK >It sends kind of a weird message when a big part of the story is a guy being reincarnated as the son of a celebrity he idolized seeking revenge for both his death and the death of his 2nd mom >More of it should be about the sister and having her defy gender norms by not doing regressive things like being a pretty girly idol
Anyone can write My Hero Academia, but if you actually tried to publish that shit you're going to be called both unoriginal and a pedophile.
The unoriginal part is actually a problem because over here israelites crawl out of the wood work to try and sue your ass for any all character they think are too similar to the shit they have the rights to.
Did you know that on Twitter you can disagree with things people say and that the words of Harleyfan2202 don't matter that much except to chronically online gays like yourself?
Indie comics in the US typically are really boring autobiographies from very self involved people and they attract navel gazing c**ts who hate anything that isn't that. Like every other fricking indie comic is about them getting their dick sucked at sleep away camp or getting high in college.
I'd argue that this is an issue in the US creative writing field in general. The US SciFi scene is filled with unironic pedophiles who support frivalous lawsuits to try to take down their critics.
The gatekeeping is really political and has those people who uinronically keep folders about how to write good agitation propaganda. They'll basically blacklist you and file complaints to get your removed on Amazon and other vendors if they can.
>Indie comics in the US typically are really boring autobiographies from very self involved people and they attract navel gazing c**ts
Are there any indie comics that instead tell a rollicking good yarn? Capeshit stopped telling awesome stories a while back, so this seems like a niche that indies could fill easily.
I remember when Soul was coming out and everyone spammed that pic a soul character and some generic anime girl. Then the film came out and ended up having more artistic value than 99% of whole anime industry. Funny how that works
Yeah i liked Soul. It's a life reassuring story and the heaven visuals are influenced by surrealist paintings. The "villain" is technically 2d compared to the rest of 3d characters
The vast majority of people who read manga do so for free, and only buy for the sake of owning it either to collect or support. Even official distributors caught on to the fact that the most profitable move is to keep the latest 2 or 3 chapters as free to read, to encourage people to be able to "keep up" for free, hence keeping the discussion/fandom alive without much downtime.
The few indies that actually follow that model seems to be the more popular ones, least that I've noticed, stuff like KSBD and the like.
Indie usually means no marketing, all word of mouth. Which is slow by today's standards.
Manga may be driven by a small group of creators and assistants but most of them get the backing and marketing of a whole magazine that a series is published in, and usually cross promotion if they land in a magazine with existing popular titles.
depends on which indie comics. i figure eurocomics are fine.
in the u.s., the idiocracy here is so effective that people can't fathom a comic that isn't capeshit. indie comics are standalone. people here are so brainwashed they're uncomfortable with the idea of not spending money for a while. or maybe the story is for an audience that's intelligent. maybe the artist's work is good and advanced but that's too much for an idiot that can't appreciate quality when they're familiar with slop
Do you remember Moral Orel? Do you remember how it was canceled for being too adult for an adult channel?
The same thing happens in comics, you can't talk about writing anything with true freedom or seriousness, that doesn't happen in Japan where shit is truly serious and murky.
>Another "durr why is manga more interesting and popular than modern lame indie comics"
Seriously again with this shit? Is it really so difficult to grasp the reason?
There's a big difference between Alan Moore and the usual indie schmuck. Eddie Campbell is fantastic too but I can honestly find a lot of really good indie artists and while Campbell is a very good writer himself, the point I'm trying to make is that these indie people are very bad writers and storytellers.
But you said that every indie comic is troon AND stoner AND SoL? Backing out already?
8 months ago
Anonymous
not that anon, or this anon, but I point to
Are any of these guys good at action or fighting?
Recently read Teppu, about WMMA. Not much explicit sexualization, and also not afraid to show the women getting hurt and hurting each other. Realistic in tone and style with great art for the action.
So many indie comics I've tried out have failed the action side of things. I don't really care about some artist's traumatic life that they're using comics as therapy for. Nor do I want page upon page of talking heads.
So action, action, action. That is what I'm interested in. Any names I should chase for that?
this is what I want. You got any action? cool action?
>Avatar Studios
http://www.avatarpress.com/
yeah but haven't published since 2019
IDW still around Sonic and TMNT still do decent enough numbers even if they're not good books but they are losing money hard.
https://idwpublishing.com/collections/all-comics
8 months ago
Anonymous
>yeah but haven't published since 2019
Damm, I remember them from the 2000s.
Some recent indies in case you're actually interested: >Acting Class
A group of people from different backgrounds meet in an nighttime acting class that starts out with icebreakers and getting over personal boundaries and turns into more and more bizarre personal voyages with each successive class. Warning: the art is drab and stiff and hideous, but it kind of works. This is like an A24 movie as a comic. >Ultrasound (aka Generous Bosom)
A loser's car breaks down in front of a house in the woods. He meets the kindly couple that resides there, and is met with a strange proposal. This one's also a mindfrick. The art is also not up to par, but the techniques are interesting. >Organisms from an Ancient Cosmos
A giant alien spaceship with very odd technology appears over the ocean and wrecks everything that's fired at it. A despised but super wealthy man starts up a project to take out out the invaders and protect the Earth from further invasions, with the support of a desperate US government. Art is also hideous.
He is. He's talking about the passion projects of people who are rich enough to draw their coffeehouse AUs/slice of life's and not the passion projects of people who survive by sheer talent.
I think Japan provides more of a viable livelihood in comics than America does, so you can't survive making comics unless you're rich or tenacious enough to live in near poverty most of the time.
If anything the manga industry lot harder to break into and harsher vs US comic industry isn't that hard you can work your way though or just publish stuff on the spot vs manga lot harder and even if you do a doujinshi won't see as many as eyes as an self published comic can.
It's definitely more viable. The amount of people who make a living in comics in Japan is much greater than the US. I know a lot of cartoonists who have turned to tattooing as a living and just make comics on the side.
>No it doesn't lol
Bruh, there are mangaka in Japan who make a living almost exclusively off of porn comics.
There ain't no one in America doing that, the only porn artists who can make a living doing exclusively porn in the west all live in Hispanic countries where the cost of living is minuscule.
Mangaka don't make as much money as you think though, lot of them are just getting by. the internet has glamorized mangaka but it's a shit job and lot more work than most comics because only big names get assistance vs comics can be made by multiple people and hell you can have a job as just a letter or whatever and get paid not having to do as much.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Anon said it was a more viable career than comics are in America, which is absolutely true.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Mangaka don't make as much money as you think though
I never said they're rich, but they still make a living as a cartoonist.
8 months ago
Anonymous
You gotta give up a lot of creative control for job stability.
8 months ago
Anonymous
There's more freedom in American comics when it comes to getting published, you got lot more work to do as mangaka to find publishers if you don't want to do a typical work and don't want to have editors messing with your shit.
Suehiro Maruo almost worked for Shounen Jump but refused because they wanted him to be more fitting for the magazine, he had to go an underground magazine and little publishers.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>you got lot more work to do as mangaka to find publishers if you don't want to do a typical work and don't want to have editors messing with your shit.
Not really. There are a bunch of magazines for that.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Not really, most are heavily edited by editors.
>he had to go an underground magazine
In 1984.
Y'know, 40 fricking years ago.
Well online it's a bit easier but still harder to get published because Japan far more picky.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>but still harder to get published because Japan far more picky.
Not really, like anon said, there are tons of magazines out there.
Someone already mentioned it earlier ITT, but you would NEVER see something like Made in Abyss published by Americans.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>you would NEVER see something like Made in Abyss published by Americans.
because it's shit? I mean we have shit but bad comics are more fun than bad manga.
8 months ago
Anonymous
What a sad cope.
8 months ago
Anonymous
How this a cope...Look at this, you can't tell me this is good. Manga fallen so hard compared to the old days when THIS Care Bears for edgelord shit is the an gold standard.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Go take your pills, grandpa, you get cranky when you don't take your pills.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Damn right I'm an cranky old man and manga fricking sucks now most comics fricking suck now too, this why I only read old shit for both these days.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Like I said, go take your pills.
Fossils like yourself should know their place, which in this case is a nursing home.
8 months ago
Anonymous
What manga you kids like today? some lame crap I'm sure.
8 months ago
Anonymous
The kind that boomers hate.
Say hi to Betty for me by the way, I know your "assisted living community" is looking a little crowded nowadays.
Look on the bright side, I hear suicide is always an option.
8 months ago
Anonymous
I know there's real reason to hate the goy generation, but you still look like an butthole when you shit on an olive branch like that.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Nah, he's a c**t, if he wants to act like a typical boomer c**t there's no point in arguing with him, just let him flail his arms and stick him in a nursing home to be abused (God-willing) after he has his first stroke.
8 months ago
Anonymous
There's something eternal about caring for the children and the elderly - those closest to our mortal thresholds - that is still true even on the precipice of hell. I'd rather take the high road.
And he may have a point, why are your aesthetics so infantile?
8 months ago
Anonymous
>I'd rather take the high road.
Sorry, I don't afford such behavior to boomers.
That entire generation took the low road and we all suffer for it.
The only "care" that c**t deserves is assisted suicide.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>That entire generation took the low road
Must be nice to live in such a black and white world.
8 months ago
Anonymous
You think key israelites explained to them what their choices would look like 40 years on when they were just living in the moment as a 23 y.o?
8 months ago
Anonymous
homie if he cares about Gunsmith cats he's not even a real boomer lmao.
All your brains are rotting to even humor this discourse as if we're talking about actual senior citizens.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Checked
You're right, but that was real unvarnished hate aimed at Boomers and while it needs to be recognized, strangling Boomers in their beds won't actually solve our problems.
8 months ago
Anonymous
The kind that boomers hate.
Say hi to Betty for me by the way, I know your "assisted living community" is looking a little crowded nowadays.
Look on the bright side, I hear suicide is always an option.
He's not wrong tho nearly 80% of new and current manga (and that's being charitable) frankly sucks and don't get me started on anime which the quality of has completely fallen and gone to shit. Japs can hardly direct shit good anymore. And Shonen (manga and anime wise) is literally dying right now as we speak.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>He's not wrong tho nearly 80% of new and current manga (and that's being charitable) frankly sucks
Anon, that applies to everything.
80% of everything is absolute dogshit; comics, manga, cartoons, anime, video games, books.
Frankly, it's probably higher than that, it's more like 90%.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Agrees
So you do admit the boomer was right all along. Lol then why did you sperg at him for. Also, yeah no shit 80 to 90%of everything is shit. But nearly all the manga and anime that is considered "good" or the best out right now has either fallen or is mediocre shit compared to where the medium was a few decades or even just a decade ago.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>So you do admit the boomer was right all along.
No, I think he's a moron, much like how I think you're a moron.
And the irony of saying this shit on Cinemaphile, a board where your average non-capeshit comic thread is lucky to get 20 posters, is fricking hilarious.
8 months ago
Anonymous
And a few of those posters would be dedicated shitposters who hate the idea of anyone talking about anything besides capeshit. Some of them are even in this thread
8 months ago
Anonymous
The autism of capeshitters is fricking staggering.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Still waiting
I'm gonna assume I'm gonna be waiting forever lol
8 months ago
Anonymous
>triggered because of the honest reality
lol
Okay so refer to me a popular manga right now or from the last few years you know that is on par to the stuff that came decades prior.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Still waiting
I'm gonna assume I'm gonna be waiting forever lol
Sorry, I don't waste time on recs to nostalgiagays and boomers.
Stick to jerking off the same 5 comics and manga for the rest of your short life.
8 months ago
Anonymous
lol
8 months ago
Anonymous
8 months ago
Anonymous
No matter what anyone says as an example, you will call it shit
8 months ago
Anonymous
Because there are no good examples. This is like I asked you to name a movie in past 10 years that you could objectively say is as good as a movie a decade plus. If you were honest you couldn't. It's just the reality of that the quality of media has greatly fallen in comparison to where it was before (that doesn't mean everything is bad but in certain mediums the state is distinctly worse). That's just the reality so why can't you accept it also doesn't mean manga can't get better just means that as of now and for the past few years it's begun to suck. I mean if I was talking about modern comics I assume you would agree. So you think somehow the Japs and manga are safe from this.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Because there are no good examples.
No, it's because no matter what you'll just say they're all shit because this is Cinemaphile and you need to protect your extremely fragile ego.
8 months ago
Anonymous
I'm literally just being honest. I don't care about being contrarian for it's sake or conforming to the consensus of this damn site.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>I'm literally just being honest.
You're anonymous, you have no reason to give honest opinions when anonymous.
You're only honest when you're forced to be, face-to-face.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Not that anon but are you moronic? you can be more honest as an anonymous person because no one KNOWS WHO YOU ARE.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Not when it comes to opinions.
I can say whatever the frick I want and there's no way you'll ever know if that's my true opinion, and since this is Cinemaphile chances are things will just be said just to troll.
It'd be like me saying all comics are absolute dogshit for trannies.
8 months ago
Anonymous
I don't know about you but I just say what's on my mind and what I know to be true.
8 months ago
Anonymous
In that case, what are some great comics from the last decade?
8 months ago
Anonymous
I tried can't think of anything. Could be something great but I wouldn't know. Now if it was the 2000s on the other hand I could provide a list.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Then what are some great comics from the 2000s?
8 months ago
Anonymous
Dude... you're pathetic.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>acknowledging the reality is pathetic
Lol how is that pathetic.
But I'll tell you what is pathetic the state of manga & anime and specifically Shonen manga & anime. Now that's is truly pathetic and quite a shame.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Shonen manga & anime
Not my problem. Grow up, cape baby.
8 months ago
Anonymous
I don't even care about capeshit. I despise the NuMarvel Comics, the MCU and those SpiderVerse films. You couldn't be talking to someone who hated the state of capeshit even more than me.
8 months ago
Anonymous
I don't believe you.
8 months ago
Anonymous
-_-
8 months ago
Anonymous
>He's not wrong tho nearly 80% of new and current manga
There is zero chance you've read enough manga to say that. There are thousands of untranslated or niche manga
8 months ago
Anonymous
>He's not wrong tho nearly 80% of new and current manga
Why do you pathetic insecure fricks pretend like you can pass judgement on that? You can't read japanese so you can't read 90% of current manga. You're so afraid to face reality but no matter how hard you hide, the fact remains that manga is demolishing american made comcis.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Why do you pathetic insecure fricks pretend like you can pass judgement on that?
A lot of anons here think that the manga industry is like the comic industry, just look at all the idiots who think Shounen Jump makes up 50% of all manga output like the big 2 do for comics.
8 months ago
Anonymous
I always do hat how they lump comics and manga as the exact same medium in the states.
8 months ago
Anonymous
They are the same medium without western comics there be no manga, America created the tropes and Japan copied, there's no doubt what so over.
8 months ago
Anonymous
It is the same "medium". The industry is different. They don't call Japanese movies and American movies different things.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Damn right I'm an cranky old man and manga fricking sucks now most comics fricking suck now too, this why I only read old shit for both these days.
The art is excellent for these but the story sucks.
8 months ago
Anonymous
What makes a good story?
8 months ago
Anonymous
One a simple action story that's fine and the other try to hard e-girl edgy crap.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>most
Sure, but not every magazine is Shonen Jump. Comic Beam or AX aren't going to have editor interference. >Japan far more picky
lol
8 months ago
Anonymous
You have no idea how much stuff is manga is changed and cut, if it isn't like self published.
8 months ago
Anonymous
You have no idea what alternative manga magazines are like.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Not as much as american comics and pretending otherwise is downright moronic.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Only with big two.
8 months ago
Anonymous
No, with all the major publishers.
Even webtoon censors shit constantly.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Who gives a shit about webtoons.
8 months ago
Anonymous
People here jerked off webtoons as the "new bastion for American webcomics that would save the industry" and it just turned out to be more of the same.
And again, the other publishers aren't much better.
8 months ago
Anonymous
webtoons are the lowest common denominator for comics, it use to be Korean comics like real published ones since they where just manga clones but shit but now it's webtoons (which are mostly Korean kek). Someone gonna say Chinese comics but nah Chinese comics the action ones are pretty based and old ones big time.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Webtoons DID let some new blood and new shit into the industry. The publishers are still a thousand times more restrictive.
Based and pekar posting.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Which covers about 70 of the american output. On the other hand, Shonen Jump only covers about 1%. So I guess you really are a moron.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Shonen Jump only covers about 1%
you're an idiot if you believe this.
8 months ago
Anonymous
It's less than 10%, moron, and it sure as shit represents less than what the big two does for the comics industry.
8 months ago
Anonymous
He's right though.
Shonen Jump doesn't even have as many ongoing stories as the other shonen magazines nowadays.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>he had to go an underground magazine
In 1984.
Y'know, 40 fricking years ago.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Suehiro Maruo almost worked for Shounen Jump but refused because they wanted him to be more fitting for the magazine
Yea, turns out his weird guro rape manga wasn't exactly a good fit for a magazine aimed at 12 year olds.
8 months ago
Anonymous
He can do more tone down stuff than that and has before but it was still too much for Jump.
8 months ago
Anonymous
yes but it's still a /job/, which is the point. If you can't sell a series or make i like that on your own, yo can try to produce something like a doujin, or work as an assistant(yes even mangaka that "never use assistants" will probably use some in a pinch) >because only big names get assistance vs comics can be made by multiple people and hell you can have a job as just a letter or whatever and get paid not having to do as much.
This isn't how most indie comics work. the difference between how assistants are handled by JP publishers and how American comics do it is that JP companies can network to provide a mangaka assistants if they want, and projects that required it can be budgeted to have assistants as needed. Indie comics like IDW or Dynamite handle it like an assembly line. The brunt of the penciling would still be done by one guy.
Stuff like fantagraphics or other truely indie projects- those are all largely produced by a single person or two because there's no money to hire an assembly line of assistants.
The fact that assistants are even a job with a branching career path at all says a lot to the stability of that industry.
8 months ago
Anonymous
IDW and Dynamite are more license publishers than actual Indie comics
8 months ago
Anonymous
True, I'm just saying that to cover all points. though it's worth noting that money is so tight with a lot of the payrates for even those are so minimal a lot of artists for them now choose to do the entire linework and often coloring themselves.
But moreover, the point is, if you want to work in comics in Japan, and you're at a decent skill level you can very likely find a living, as hard as it may be. In America, the market just doesn't allow for that. It's constantly pushing people out. When you're "in" the industry in Japan, it's harder to truly be out. even people who fall out of credits are still producing art for a living in some capacity.
>No it doesn't lol
Bruh, there are mangaka in Japan who make a living almost exclusively off of porn comics.
There ain't no one in America doing that, the only porn artists who can make a living doing exclusively porn in the west all live in Hispanic countries where the cost of living is minuscule.
>the only porn artists who can make a living doing exclusively porn in the west all live in Hispanic countries where the cost of living is minuscule.
Don't forget Patreon scammers who make a living scamming the same few hundred morons with some shitty unfinished game (Looking at you Summertime Saga).
No I do, I love SOL actually, but I am adult enough to acknowledge indie comics will never make it like this the way adult capeshit fans admit it's for children.
Indie comics are a niche and great niche, they don't need to be anything more than that caring about sells is pointless, as long as they sell enough to keep going all that matters. Enjoy the thing popular or not, why it need to be popular? it doesn't so who cares you just complain if it was anyways.
Femforce been going on for 40 years with 200 issues and doesn't sell that much at all but the boomer fans keep it alive and that's enough, it doesn't need more.
I agree but a few things.
Firstly, America NEEDS a good industry, we're meant to be the powerhouse of the world, we can't just let the Japanese, Asia, and Africa eat up all our business while South America gets by feeding the non whites of the world their beloved peppers and spices.
When OP asked "Hey uh if anime is so big, why isn't indie comics in da US Selling? Duhh."
The answer is simple and I agree with you:
Indie comics are the student and amateur film circuit of the US comic industry.
The problem is capeshit which is currently dying >Currently? You must mean since 1970.
And is basically being eaten alive by crows and maggots while Japan comes in expecting a friendly rivalry but just has to stand there looking down in pity.
Then comes this gay going "INDIE IS NOT EASILY GROUPED AS troony DRAMAS CHUD"
When it clearly is, and enjoy it as it is, but op also has a point despite being moronic, the America's need to fight back, and do so by strangling out capeshit, indie is of no threat and can and will stay underground forever because in the same way all student films are just autobio shit by sad liberals, so is indie comics, we need to make a third path that will kill capeBlack folk and step over the pile of shit that no one cares about nor does any harm that is indie comics to punch the Japanese in their smug pretty noses!
Some recent indies in case you're actually interested: >Acting Class
A group of people from different backgrounds meet in an nighttime acting class that starts out with icebreakers and getting over personal boundaries and turns into more and more bizarre personal voyages with each successive class. Warning: the art is drab and stiff and hideous, but it kind of works. This is like an A24 movie as a comic. >Ultrasound (aka Generous Bosom)
A loser's car breaks down in front of a house in the woods. He meets the kindly couple that resides there, and is met with a strange proposal. This one's also a mindfrick. The art is also not up to par, but the techniques are interesting. >Organisms from an Ancient Cosmos
A giant alien spaceship with very odd technology appears over the ocean and wrecks everything that's fired at it. A despised but super wealthy man starts up a project to take out out the invaders and protect the Earth from further invasions, with the support of a desperate US government. Art is also hideous.
>Like an A24 movie as a comic
Anon I don't think that's a good thing, but at least they're trying to be slightly more than just your average SOL based off those descriptions. I'll check and see if they are or aren't disappointments.
>Anon I don't think that's a good thing
It's not, but someone might be interested.
If the art and pacing/length were better in these comics, I'd consider them favorites (I more or less do with Ultrasound, but only by default).
>a third path
Yeah, there needs to be easily accessible, easily digestible genre fiction for people to pick up and read. And it needs actually good marketing.
I've been a comic fan my whole life, I love comics of all kinds and have looked all types of comics, you're just so angry sad dude trying hard to troll and failing poorly at it. Why don't you go read something might be good for you.
Don't you otakus love Slices of life in your mangas? remember love hina and all that shit? I think is not fair if slices of life are good in mangas, they can't be go on amerika comicbooks.
Maybe I am old but back then in the 2000s/early 2010s Slices of Life were loved, at least with normalgays, I am not talking about people in obscure manga forums.
>but back then in the 2000s/early 2010s Slices of Life were loved, at least with normalgays
That has never been the case, outside of Japan SoL was almost exclusively popular with people who were big into anime/manga and otaku.
Prior to ~2011 normalgays only cared about whatever played on TV, and after that they only cared about whatever was trending online, which was rarely SoL.
it helps that Japanese SoL has cute characters, where as Americ**t SoL is some crude ass drawing that almost insults you for wanting to see beautiful, clean art.
Liek even a random ass JP SoL will have a beautifully drawn background (yes I know it's very often traced assets), where as American SoL is drawn like MM GRAYONS
Indie comic slice of life is grounded not a perfect happy world like most manga tends to be, it's a bit more melancholy, subtle and empty. People actually act like people not basic personality traits and the art is more a reflection on reality by being very basic and simple clean lines just showing the it in a pure form or exaggerated cartooning to emphasize the reality.
>Doesn't like Daniel Clowes.
I'm sorry the only art you can enjoy with your autistic brain which is most likely fearful of more grounded faces and bodies can handle is generic modern manga art.
Unironically this is the problem with lot of people, they find any art that isn't the typical generic manga stuff ugly even when it's not and ugly art not even a bad thing just depends on how it's done and the work it's done in. People aren't use to all types of artstyles like they use to be and it's a real damn shame because art gotten so boring on all sides even capeshit fans just want most basic looking generic shit. Hell manga that does styles that are different and unique tend to get overlooked or dismissed.
8 months ago
Anonymous
explain to me how any of that is "bad" art, because it all looks better and more exciting to me than shit like
>Doesn't like Daniel Clowes.
I'm sorry the only art you can enjoy with your autistic brain which is most likely fearful of more grounded faces and bodies can handle is generic modern manga art.
that looks like something my great grandfather would read.
8 months ago
Anonymous
You got boring taste, that type of typical anime style is what wrong with modern anime today vs 80's and 90's use to be full of so many cool and unique styles.
Looks like something your great grandfather would read well he would have better taste in media than you.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>y-you're boring!
yes ok, I'm so insulted. I'll just have to cry into a pile of much nicer and prettier looking books.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Ok? Why are you on Cinemaphile at all? Even on Cinemaphile, they'd say you have basic b***h taste.
8 months ago
Anonymous
You are boring, ''pretty'' is boring.
I rather watch this
8 months ago
Anonymous
Then this.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Then this.
both are charming in their own way, certainly more than the Daniel Clowes stuff that feels stiff and sterile.
8 months ago
Anonymous
So what? What's wrong about getting to know your grandfather a bit better?
Just have enough patience to get over the hump. The vast majority of fiction is boring at first and you need to give every story a little time before it can genuinely hook you and show you it's worth it. Comics can be the same way.
>what you don't like REALISM?
I don't, apparently most people think like me too and want something beyond realism. idealized people + detailed backgrounds is a better combination.
American SoL means having to follow the daily lives of Americans, which for most people is kind of an instant turn off.
No one wants to read about the daily life of someone who's a c**t.
Comics tend to be aimed at a specific, aged demographic, while manga is aimed at basically anyone.
The current comic demographic is old white liberal NIMBYs in their 40s, 50s, and 60s and a small handful of younger liberal white women, since liberal white women tend to be about as lame as your average old person.
Different markets.
Comics appeal to specific Americans and no one else.
Comics don't even appeal to American conservatives nowadays, manga somehow does a better job of that, which is hilarious.
Because
1- Western Indie comics are just as full of the same bullshit that drives people from Western comics to Manga
2- the ones that aren't have almost if not zero marketing. The only way they spread is Word of Mouth and Social Media, which is pretty much the digital equivalent.
One of my favorite series is Gold Digger. Almost no one has heard of it despite going for 30 years. Their only marketing is Antarctic Press's twitter, and the author drawing porn on the side that gets shared to various corners of the net, where someone might inform the comment section that he also has a comic.
Seriously, where can I go to stock up on anthologies of Gold Digger? I had to give them up one time and I want them back in my library.
Perry actually gave me the first three bricks of Gold Digger himself. Signed and everything. I was walking around a convention, he tapped me on the shoulder, handed them to me, and walked away. Still the nicest way I've ever been hit on in my entire life.
Perry really likes putting his girls in skin tight clothing and cramming as many pubic shots as he can fit into a single panel and still I find his stuff to be really empowering. His women are very capable and assume the world is theirs in the best way imaginable. Light, sexy fun stuff that's always been a good pick-me-up.
They do Kickstarters for new volumes, they have the HC Gold Brick 2 color edition up right now, and you can choose the first volume as an add on.
It'll run you about $100+shipping for just the book, but they're top fricking quality.
Seriously, where can I go to stock up on anthologies of Gold Digger? I had to give them up one time and I want them back in my library.
Perry actually gave me the first three bricks of Gold Digger himself. Signed and everything. I was walking around a convention, he tapped me on the shoulder, handed them to me, and walked away. Still the nicest way I've ever been hit on in my entire life.
Perry really likes putting his girls in skin tight clothing and cramming as many pubic shots as he can fit into a single panel and still I find his stuff to be really empowering. His women are very capable and assume the world is theirs in the best way imaginable. Light, sexy fun stuff that's always been a good pick-me-up.
Life got very dark and I had to give up all my possessions at one point. Most of it felt freeing except for the art, papers, and some books, including my Gold Diggers.
Manga is easy to find, they sell everywhere, there are thousands and thousands of pirate websites of all sorts and they have the animations kinda like those big commercials an only for that, so it's easier to reach a wider audience. Indie comics are still truly...indie. Most people don't know they even exist, a bet a lot of the gays that come here to talk about anime vs cartoons or comic sales or Cinemaphile tourists never even heard of one indie comic in their life, in their head western comics are all capeshit. I kinda want to stay that way.
Because you hate them too because it makes them all the more special?
its true, the other day i was talking to the director of my departament and he was reading comics on his tablet, i tryed to say that i read comics too but when he showed me his 1 terabyte of indie comics that i had never even heard of i endup looking like an amateur
to be fair all of them were more than 10 years old, but still
indie comics suck too.
weebs
SPBP
Japan Thing Good is not a meme, morons genuinely consider subpar works godlike the moment they learn it was made by slanteyes.
Anime website.
Cope.
Not a valid argument.
Neither is yours.
Bait
not even you think that Marvel comics is better or more fun than any crap that japan is releasing, it's just worse than manga in every possible way
Indie comics are not manga
Do your thoughts have literally any relation to each other?
Westerners buy manga as merch for their favorite anime, no one actually reads it. It's like watching Rick and Morty then buying the Pickle Rick funko pop, it's just shelf decoration to say "I like thing".
I will buy things to support them but I usually read pirated scans anyway because I've been doing it since I was 12.
I only buy manga that I consider worth having physical because of the artwork, internet pirating is just way too comfortable.
Indie creators hate the idea of making something that appeals to a broader audience
>ndie creators hate the idea of making something that appeals to a broader audience
sounds based if you ask me
cringe
That is a very funny pic. Implying kids are reading capeshit, that's funny as frick.
Eltingville is based on experiences from the 80's.
Spider-Man comics were relatively niche even at the time, capeshit never was big as shonen is now, in one decade they already surpassed one century of superhero comic sales.
Spider-Man is still the most popular superhero in the world, but not because of his comics. It’s because of his movies. The merch and games are selling around the world all thanks to the world wide success of Raimi’s Spider-Man.
Capes were big enough at one point that mothers could occasionally write letters to Marvel and get them published. I also remember a letter from a stuntman in an early FF issue. It's probably true that they were never as big as manga is now, but they weren't always as niche as they are now either.
>80s
>Sonic comics
do you not understand what "based on" means
Stop the damage control, the guy is making a comic about a non 80s comic, it's straight up not talking about the 80s nor is based on the 80s the author is just an out of touch moron who thinks kids read Marvel garbage rather than weebshit.
Evan Dorkin entire career is based on making fun of a fandom of 10k nerds or so and pretend that they are mainstream because otherwise he's just an autist obsessed with the opinions of an extremely tiny group of people rather than something relevant.
Do they not?
They are
>Hero Academia
>One Punch Man
>Chainsaw Man
etc, they don't buy american capeshit though.
Is there anything for kids from Marvel & DC?
I don't think kids want to read a monologue from a heavyset woman about why she's so great.....but....maybe they do
It's just fatties on social media advocating for more fatty inclusion in media and to stop body shaming them for their unhealthy lifestyle and eating habits.
>Is there anything for kids from Marvel & DC?
Yeah there's like Batman meets scooby Doo and shit. But really kids like edgy shit.
Even MHA has boobs and blood. Boys eat that shit up
The best part about manga is that it appeals to niche fetishism you arent allowed to write about in america, and sometimes cool anime like penguindrum come out
The only people indie comies and zines appeal to are tranarchists
>The best part about manga is that it appeals to niche fetishism you arent allowed to write about in america
This is a big one for me (and, let's be honest, a lot of people on Cinemaphile).
When manga gets weird it's much much weirder and more batshit than American comics, which for me translates to more fun.
>niche fetishism you arent allowed to write about in america
You are speaking of e-girl, yes?
That appeals to tranarchists too. Arguably more than indie comics.
I think western comics get weirder, but they break so many conventions they become unreadable.
>I think western comics get weirder
Nah, western comics will do weird things with structure, but not weird things with the actual plot.
Even shounenshit gets weirder, like with the twist where the big bad in Jujutsu Kaisen gave birth to the MC by taking over some broad's body and getting impregnated in it.
There are just some things you will never be able to get away with in America. There will never be something like Made in Abyss made in America, or even Baki (no, Luther Strode is not at all equivalent to Baki and is nowhere near as batshit insane or weird).
They do weird things with plot too. Like the clown in Ed the Happy Clown that has alternate universe Ronald Reagan's head as a penis glans, and the only way to return the head to the body is for the clown to frick the ass of a corpse that can't stop shitting.
The only thing that really isn't allowed is e-girl and things like that. So yes, Made in Abyss could never be made.
I hope they could bring the sexy back (Yeah!) to comics at some point. But e-girl is never going to happen.
>Can I write an a comic with an all-white cast in america
Yes.
Ichi is a solid manga. I thought it was very funny.
Crossed, not so much.
>when someone inevitably asks me why are there no blacks in my comic, can I say "I don't want black people in my comic!" ?
Sure.
Sure, twitter/tumblr won't start a cancellation campaign over that, and other bullshit you tell naive morons.
It's just twitter now, but yeah. That's what happens. It's best not to speak your mind.
Just create that comic with all whites and never answer their dumbfrick questions.
No, it was because he told white people to segregate themselves from black people on top of other things he said in his videos.
The strip survived for a long time without a hitch before he said that.
>That's what happens
And that's bad. It needs not to happen at all for people to feel free to create what they want. Creator censorship only makes the problem worse, so don't creators to censor themselves, tell those morons to shut up instead and accept that not wanting blacks is perfectly okay.
>he told white people to segregate themselves from black people
>that's supposed to be the worst
..do americans not believe in freedom of association or what?
people have sued for access to white people.
So are you saying Anime appeals more to the pol guy?
>mean the market never developed and is never going.
Places with big commuting in the US still prefer anime.
People tried to cancel Dilbert because there are no black people in a office humor comic strip centered about nerdy white engineers and H1B indian interns.
>The only thing that really isn't allowed is e-girl and things like that.
Bro you rarely even see people use slurs in modern comics, they'll have a character written as an unrepentant racist and they're too fricking pussy to have them use the word "Black person" or "chink" without censoring it.
You also rarely (if ever) see things like rape, incest, or anything deemed too problematic. Fricking dark fantasy in comics nowadays is completely toothless and gay because there are things comic artists either can't or don't want to depict.
Sitting here and acting like it's just e-girl is such a pathetic fricking cope it makes me sick.
All of those things have been in comics.
It's odd arguing this with you here, but then you get all these comic book readers decrying someone like Alan Moore and Garth Ennis for including those very things in their comics, to the point that this is all that's brought up when discussing their comics, or the only things they keep in mind.
This whole thing is frustrating.
>All of those things have been in comics
Anon, use your eyes.
We're not talking about "old" comics and fricking Alan Moore shit that everyone has already read.
Everyone has already read The Boys and shit like that, bringing up the same 5 fricking comics that everyone's already read and going "noooo, look at this shit from 2 decades ago, we're still edgy and cool!" is getting fricking old.
In case you haven't noticed, this thread is about indie comics, even mainstay edgy shit that people post on Cinemaphile like The Furry Trap is over a fricking decade old.
>everyone has already read
That's false, but I did go off topic. I was responding to the "never" part of the argument, which isn't the case.
I CONCEDE, because I'm very drunk and it seems I lost the plot somewhere.
And sadly, you're right.
The US is in a dark place (and I'm not just talking about up the butthole of a certain population), and these reminder threads don't do much good.
As I said, this whole thing is frustrating.
You're preaching to the choir.
The situation is pretty fricked, but it's mostly the fact that it's publicly reprimanded that makes it seem like it's all Americans.
A good portion of the population agree with him.
This. Manga made by women for women is full of women who love being raped by their love interest, American women who wrote the same (Twilight and 50SOG) made a huge success but sjws screeched so much everyone just makes bland, boring unsuccessful shit that fails. It only expanded to men's media from there and now everything is shit.
You gotta look at small press. Johnny Ryan gets away with all that shit.
Why do people here hate gay people in comics but want to see incest in comics?
>inb4 because incest is hot
So doest that mean that people here don't have any actual stance on anything besides "I wanna see things that make me coom"?
>Why do people here hate gay people in comics but want to see incest in comics?
I think the question is why is showing gay people okay but showing incest is problematic?
Because incest has quick observable negative effects on healthy reproduction. Nobody cares if two guys don't reproduce, but everyone can look at an inbred freak and wish that thing never existed.
>Because incest has quick observable negative effects on healthy reproduction.
So does homosexuality, ie. no one reproduces and the population dies out.
Just be honest and say you think it's icky.
False equivalence. Homosexuality existing in a society doesn't mean no one reproduces. It just means some portion of the populace doesn't reproduce, which doesn't harm the population that does. Incest existing in a society means some portion of the populace shits up their gene pool, with observable negative results, which does objective harm to the population, because the inbred person may then breed with someone else and frick their genes as well, etc.
>Homosexuality existing in a society doesn't mean no one reproduces.
And incest doesn't have a 100% guarantee of producing unhealthy offspring.
You might as well make the same argument about women over 45 giving birth if all you care about is the health of the offspring.
Again, just be honest and say you think it's icky.
>Again, just be honest and say you think it's icky
Only if you're honest about wanting it because it makes your dick hard.
I'm actually more into the psychological torment of abuse angle and watching a character fall to pieces over either the guilt of an incestuous relationship or the immense betrayal of being preyed upon sexually by someone they trusted.
It's less that it makes my dick hard and more that it makes the dick in my brain hard.
>Women over 45 giving birth is generally looked down upon, isn't it?
Not enough to stop it from being depicted in media, no.
In fact, it's depicted in media far more than ever nowadays.
>It's less that it makes my dick hard and more that it makes the dick in my brain hard.
No difference
Spoken like someone who's never experienced either.
That doesn't make any sense
I'm saying you've got no sense of imagination.
It's not about "ugh, incest hot," it's about being exposed to and empathizing with the emotions of the characters in the story. Just like when you read a book like A Child Called It or The Color Purple.
>you're very unlikely to publish a successful manga set in a real-world country that isn't Japan, any of its neighbors or maybe US.
Eden - It's an Endless World
Incest is definitely in comics in a non-sexy way though so I fail to see your point.
>In fact, it's depicted in media far more than ever nowadays.
Name 5 times.
>It's not about "ugh, incest hot," it's about being exposed to and empathizing with the emotions of the characters in the story.
First, you pretty much said above "ugh, the character's suffering is so hot", so you do read it for some sort of fetish-like satisfaction. Second, I don't see you talking about "empathizing with the emotions" of all the gay autobiographical indie comic creators.
>inb4 because it's boring and unappealing
As opposed to incest to most people.
>Name 5 times.
Game of Thrones
Star Trek Picard
Wheel of Time
The Walking Dead
The Sopranos
It's pretty normal for American media to depict women giving birth at older ages where they're more likely to produce unhealthy offspring.
In fact, I'm pretty sure it's a plot point in The Sopranos.
>Second, I don't see you talking about "empathizing with the emotions" of all the gay autobiographical indie comic creators.
Because they're boring.
If they weren't boring I *would* read and empathize with them, I literally mentioned an autobiography in my earlier post (A Child Called It). You'd know that if you ever picked up a fricking book before.
>As opposed to incest to most people.
Uhh, I don't think most people think "boring" when they think of incest.
>now more than ever
>posts a bunch of old ass series excluding Picard
The only one of those series I'd consider "old" is The Sorpanos.
And Wheel of Time is literally still ongoing and probably the newest show on that list, and don't give me that "i-it's based on an old book!" shit because the show is nothing like the books.
Both Game of Thrones and Wheel of Time are from the 90s. That's old. And I doubt Wheel of Time is drastically different. Jordan already had tons of "woke" shit in the books
>And I doubt Wheel of Time is drastically different.
Okay, so you haven't watched it.
Typical for a moron on Cinemaphile, most of you don't know shit about anything outside of superheros.
What is so different? I read the books and they were trash so why would I watch the show?
You shouldn't, you should stick to capeshit, it's where you fit in best.
lol
I don't read capeshit, but Wheel of Time is no better. Enjoy your braid tugging and skirt smoothing
Women over 45 giving birth is generally looked down upon, isn't it?
Psychologically, I believe most people evolved to have a natural subconscious aversion to incest for this very reason.
>Like the clown in Ed the Happy Clown that has alternate universe Ronald Reagan's head as a penis glans, and the only way to return the head to the body is for the clown to frick the ass of a corpse that can't stop shitting.
There is nothing fun about this it's just awful and gross.
So sensitive.
You want weird plots? Here's your "kino" weird plot, by none other than Kevin Smith too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man/Black_Cat:_The_Evil_that_Men_Do
Read the synopsis.
Is that your idea of weird?
The guy that was functionally Mysterio at the time randomly being raped by his brother and having the power to teleport heroin into people's hearts is pretty weird, yeah. As well as the sheer amount of gratuitous rape and drug usage in a Spider-Man comic. It's not the craziest shit ever, but it's definitely out there. Putting it here to say that "wild" shit is not always good writing.
Gay rape isn't weird, it's just gay.
The teleporting heroin thing is mildly weird, but only mildly.
That's only weird by capeshit standards, since capeshit is for children.
>You are speaking of e-girl, yes?
No.
Can I write an a comic with an all-white cast in america, and when someone inevitably asks me why are there no blacks in my comic, can I say "I don't want black people in my comic!" ?
Why do you not want black people in your comics?
>Because I don't understand black culture
>Because I'd get called a racist for writing black people
>Because I don't like black people.
I think the first two are the best case scenario
Can you make a manga set in a setting that has no connection with Japan or Asia whatsoever and have it realistically sell well?
One Piece?
All have Asian-coded characters and borrow from Japanese culture.
>inb4 muh coded
Yes, this term is autistic and overused, but the gist of it is that all these characters are supposed to be Asians in the eyes of the intended Eastern audience.
You're moronic.
Let me put it this way: you're very unlikely to publish a successful manga set in a real-world country that isn't Japan, any of its neighbors or maybe US. Most people on the market won't be interested in it. There are specific cultural norms and expectations everywhere.
Kek ok.
>Only 1 part of the series is in Japan.
JoJo is just shonen character archetypes with a different coat of paint. None of the JoJos resemble any real British person more than an average shonen protagonist does.
Okay, I'll give you Eden, it does sound interesting. Still probably a minority on the market, because most Japanese naturally want to read about the Japanese.
>Vinland Saga
The premise sounds interesting, but the bishonen prettyboy protag on the cover makes me think it's another JoJo situation.
And Kingdom is about China, a neighboring country.
If you haven't heard of either Eden or Vinland Saga, you are clueless about the market.
I mean, since you could only come up with a handful of examples of what I'm talking about, I'm willing to trust my common sense and keep believing most Japenese aren't keen on reading about something alien to their culture. And neither are Americans.
As stated before, you're moronic.
Vinland Saga
Kingdom
>All have Asian-coded characters
Ufrickingwotm8?
Yes a book written in US or England and got an anime later
IS ASIAN CODED
kys.
ATLA was created in the US and yet it's undeniably Asian-coded.
By that logic the Jujutsu Kaisen thing isn't weird either, just gay and troony. Ane besides, Bakitards bring up their gay rape all the time as an example of "weirdness", though. Not to mention I don't see what is "adult" about either of those.
>Ane besides, Bakitards bring up their gay rape all the time as an example of "weirdness", though.
Uhh no, the weird parts of Baki are shit like pic related and all the insane dudebro science.
The gay rape and "I have so much testosterone that every other man is a woman in my eyes" is the fricking moronic and funny parts of Baki.
Berserk?
Hunter x Hunter?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Masterpiece_Theater not manga but...come on really anon.
he's speaking of
People aren't allowed to freely make comics about what they like without having forced diversity shoved in even when they don't want it
That's the real taboo in this shithole
Stuff like Ichi The Killer, Joushi Kouhei That's Just Senpai's Dick or even Saltiness.
>Ichi the Killer
Meh. Crossed exists, but it's nothing to write home about.
Crossed and Ichi The Killer are nothing alike though. Stick to Spider-man, lil guy.
They're both about ultraviolence. But Crossed is so mediocre it makes ultraviolence dull and boring.
That's like saying Batman, Spider-man, Superman, Dr. Strange and Ultramega are the same because they fight evil doers. And that's actually far more accurate than saying Crossed and Ichi The Killer are the same because "ultraviolence lol". Stick to capeshit.
>capeshit is all the same
It kinda is.
Sure is, but then if I also mention some pseudo capeshit from Image like Ultramega or something someone's gonna shit his pants with rage.
Have you never heard of webcomics?
Didn't some webtoon just get pulled from the site for having a character call someone else "homie?"
And it was censored too, which makes it even funnier.
can you publish a comic about a sport with Trump as a competitor?
or like Obama transforming to a rollerskating teenage Japanese girl?
Yes. It's independent publishing. You can put out whatever you want. People may not buy it though
The biggest problem in US comics that kills variety is finding funding. Lets say you got someone who wants to make a comic like that, and even draw it well and not some stick figure fantagraphics bullshit
>Image won't take it, doesn't seem like it has movie potential
>Darkhorse won't take it, not their style
>Boom is license crap
>dynamite is boomer crap
>Fantagraphics is seatle hipster shit
Sure, you could try and fund it yourself it who'll pay?
Webcomics are mostly a dead end these days too
Name of this manga?
Sure
Hell, you could have someone accuse Obama as the father of your baby.
>The only people indie comies and zines appeal to are tranarchists
/Thread.
Even if the japs don't make the deepest works, one look beyond the Shonen Jump publishing's and you'll find a plethora of different ideas, from historical retellings, to fighting series, to crime, etc.
Even Garo was mostly people working and flexing their ability to make an atmosphere or conceptual short story.
>Pick up American indie magazine
BOY I FRICKING LOVE
LOVE
RANDOM ROBERT CRUMB MEGG MOGG AND OWL STONER RIP OFF SCOTT PILGRIM STONER SHIT SLICE OF LIFE ABOUT DEAD END GROUP OF LOSERS
I LOVE AUTOBIOGRAPHICALS ABOUT TRANNIES
At best you get fujo fiction for and by women about mythology, it's never not fantasy or mythology.
And Europe? Similar slice of life schlock, it's leagues above cape shit, but unlike Japan or America, the best advice I can give Europeans is simple:
Stop making realistic comics. Get out of your feudal peasant mindset that makes you farm or work all day then go home to play Tractor Simulator 2023, and make something off the wall and balls out.
Anyway that picture was based off the 80s, the first wave of the Japan anime and manga boom caused indie comics to actually stop the Robert Crumb shit for just a moment to publish stuff about American Samurai going to bars to slash would be rapists, or cave women out of ice working as detectives, it wasn't great, hell most of it was just the comic equivalent of B movies, but it was trying, but instead of leading anywhere that market rapidly died out and got replaced by the troony shit we know today, as if the Western comic market refuses to adapt, even before they just got Disney and Blackrock ESG subsidies, they actively refused to improve or change instead of just using gimmicks to make money.
>Stop making realistic comics. Get out of your feudal peasant mindset that makes you farm or work all day then go home to play Tractor Simulator 2023, and make something off the wall and balls out.
Or how about you grow up and start enjoying things with actual thought put into their worldbuilding and internal logic rather than cheap flashy spectacly for <100 IQs
Or you can just enjoy both. Me liking From Hell doesn't stop me from enjoying Riki-Oh. Good comics come in all flavors
>tranarchists
How can trannies be anarchists when they're apart of the machine? Fricking trannies ruin everything like always.
You would agree with them if you were forced to animate Minions and the Emoji Movie for your entire career and barely get any acknowledgment for it.
>coomer
Opinion discarded.
>forced to animate Minions and the Emoji Movie for your entire career
>forced
Nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to apply for jobs they don't want. What a stupid take.
If you're an animator and want a consistent source of income, you are forced to take whatever you can get.
And regardless, if they quit and try to make their own stuff that they like, then people like you will complain they are not bowing to the mob enough and "hate the idea of something that appeals to the broader audience".
If manga is really popular why isn't it in the top 30 of best selling Amazon books yet 6 visual books are, including one in the top 10?
What kind of moron pays for manga?
Hundreds of thousands of people worldwide
If Amazon was accurate to number of sales wolrdwide the Quran and Bible would always be the top 2.
Who cares, why you care about sells? you got stocks or something?
Anime tiddies
Almost all of the American comic companies are moronic. DC/Marvel capeshit has its obvious problems, but even outside of the cape multiverse shitshow, Bill Willingham just decided to make Fables public domain since DC was trying to steal the IP rights from him for 20 years just like they did with Moore and Watchmen. The indie publishers aren't doing much better either. 66% of Dark Horse's sales are coming from manga (which is 1% of their output), IDW is outright dying, Image is just TV/movie pitches, and the others are barely known. Not to mention that all of these publishers are stuck in LCS hell while manga is making all of their money in bookstores and digital.
>Not to mention that all of these publishers are stuck in LCS hell while manga is making all of their money in bookstores and digital.
All the other publishers do sell digital and in bookstores(the latter very likely since before you were born), that isn't enough.
homie, have you seen the disparity in the offerings? In the major bookstores here, the GNs are usually limited to one, maybe two cluttered shelves while manga has two neatly kept AISLES dedicated to them. Viz's entire catalogue with same day release as the Japanese print version is also available for just 3 dollars a month compared to Marvel (10 dollars plus wait time for new releases) and DC (8 dollars plus wait time for new releases).
A large part of this is because those books just aren't kept in print(the other is they don't sell much..which brings us back to point A).
have a nice day Black person.
>the GNs are usually limited to one, maybe two cluttered shelves while manga has two neatly kept AISLES dedicated to them.
Anon, that's an effect, not a cause.
Retail stocks what sells, if one product sells more than another then the former is what gets stocked, it's that simple.
Almostall American indie comics either license shit, movie pitches, or the most boring white middle class person’s autobio
Absolutely wrong. Chester Brown, Charles Burns, Crumb, Spain, S Clay WIlson, Woodring, Hernandez Bros, Clowes, the list is nearly endless. It will take you years just to read L & R. Plus there is constantly a crop of new cartoonists who do great stuff: Benji Nate for example.
Sux to be you, frankly, if you can't find good stuff to read.
>just read the trashy degen white-hating Hispanic comics bro
I'd much prefer the industry's largely anodyne occasional lesbians to this
Since when did the Hernandez bros became "white haters"? Your brain is filled with fake "culture war" shit started by the small hats.
You MUST be white, too bad your race is going extinct eh? Bet you get hardon for black girls but you can't even approach them.
BS, there are tons of companies that will print your book and today you can make it digital and sell it yourself.
>BS, there are tons of companies that will print your book and today you can make it digital and sell it yourself.
Distribution and marketplace. Access to conventions. Self publishing isn't a fricking substitute for infrastructure. Manga has an entire spectrum from 100 percent digital hikikomori on DLsite to comicet that leads all the way to Shonen fricking jump.
See, THIS is what I think of when I think of indie comics.
This garbage that looks like something made by a 15 year old with BPD.
>This garbage that looks like something made by a 15 year old with BPD
No, this looks like something a 30 year old catlady born in Finland, with her hymen still in tact draws like
>still in tact
"Intact" is one word.
>with her hymen still in tact draws like
Do I need to have a stroke to understand this?
>Since when did the Hernandez bros became "white haters"? Your brain is filled with fake "culture war" shit started by the small hats.
>You MUST be white, too bad your race is going extinct eh? Bet you get hardon for black girls but you can't even approach them.
breasts and action, T'n'A, are largely absent and/or done in a piss poor fashion, and that's what sells best.
Manga is also much easier to read and usually made to be generally appealing. Indie comics tend to be very personal and hence a little too niche and a little too ugly.
Love and Rockets is kino.
>Manga is also much easier to read and usually made to be generally appealing. Indie comics tend to be very personal and hence a little too niche and a little too ugly.
This right here.
>mfw i see fellow love and rockets reader.
>looks at their art
YAAAAAAWWWWN
any cool action scenes?
Are these supposed to be examples of GOOD indie comics?
lf you can't appreciate Frank then maybe comics aren't for you.
Maybe read a book
There are a lot of comics I love and appreciate: Golden Kamuy, Vagabond, The Fable, Jagaaaaaaaaan, etc.
Indie comics either look like they're from a newspaper or some dumbass dyke
>I only like maga.
Finding good ones is a problem. Below is a list of some I enjoyed.
Children: Garfield, Peanuts
Superhero: Society Supreme, Watchmen, Martial Law, Brat Pack
Slice of Life: Meg, Mog and Owl (adult); Dilbert, Boondocks
Historical: Maus, My Friend Dahmer
Edgy: Crow
>Maus
Would you like to talk about the Monsanto family and the things they owned?
Ships. They owned ships. And cotton. Tons of farming equipment, of course.
Guess we're gonna let that slide. Real happy we tore down that statue of that abolitionist though.
>Malcolm X is extra spicy because he was the only black man with working israelitedar
>Buzzwords
Woodring is nothing special. Imri Sakabashira does similar stuff but completely blows him out of the water.
I like both, but Woodring is better.
No. Not even close.
It's true. Woodring is better.
He taps into that weirdness like no one else except maybe Luigi Serafini and certain fine artists. If you know other similar artists (aside from Tiger Tateishi, Luigi Serafini, and Artzybasheff, whom I also like a lot) please name them. I love this stuff.
He's pretty mid.
Frank is great. That other one looks like shit.
It's not an action series, though.
Frank is. The other one looks kinda heartless.
Indies are often a descent into a cold, foreign state for me. Some are like old memories. Just floating in another state of being for a while.
If you could wrap that around a tight, cohesive story, you'd have gold, but it's pretty hard to do as well as create atmosphere.
Frank is fricking great
It's toon nonsense mixed with eldrich horrors
>it will take you years to read L and R
no it won't. i picked up all the volumes that have been printed last year and read all of it. it was mediocre
>white haters
the brother that writes the titty monsters began the story with some photographer that wanted to take photos of the rural town they were in. rejecting him means the people of the town didn't want foreign gawkers. thing is, if white people want to learn more about the world and other people in it, that's the opposite of racism and keeping white people from learning about you means you're the one that's racist
Most of these are painfully boring. I like me some Burns and Clowes is hit or miss but Chester Brown is just... ugh, never really got into Crumb, just wasn't for me, Woodrig is kinda just doing the same thing and yet his (small) fanbase never gets bored of it, Hernandez Bros are just not something I'm interested in, a long running soap might be impressive in that they could keep it going for so long but it's not the type of storytelling I'm attracted to and that being "things that age with you". I find Tomine to be a bore, he's decent but nothing special. Oh and I really don't like Ware.
Are any of these guys good at action or fighting?
Recently read Teppu, about WMMA. Not much explicit sexualization, and also not afraid to show the women getting hurt and hurting each other. Realistic in tone and style with great art for the action.
So many indie comics I've tried out have failed the action side of things. I don't really care about some artist's traumatic life that they're using comics as therapy for. Nor do I want page upon page of talking heads.
So action, action, action. That is what I'm interested in. Any names I should chase for that?
If you want fights just reading fighting manga. Don't play dumb.
I find fighting manga incredibly tedious myself, unless it's really wild or the art is different. Instead of talking heads, it's flailing bodies framed in speedlines. When they do talk, it's the most inane shit in the world, like "A sweep..." from your pic there, or "H-he's fast!".
Teppu is super boring to me, on top of the art looking kind of shitty.
You have zero reason to be on Cinemaphile. You won't find what you're after here.
>I find fighting manga incredibly tedious myself
That's fair, however 99,9% of the world wants stories about superpowers to have long and fun fights and I'm sure you can understand why.
Yeah, I get it.
How am I playing dumb?
Action is just as important as drama or surrealism or whatever else.
I am asking in good faith whether there are any action indie comics that are worth reading on the premise of their action and how it is conveyed.
I don't care about stories dealing with depression or suffering from mental illnesses. I find most character drama banal and boring. I don't need aesops for grade school children.
So I ask again, are there any good action or fighting indie authors that I should be checking out?
If fighting and action is inane, what do you think is good? What draws you to comics? Drama? Soap opera?
>How am I playing dumb?
You're not, he's just baiting. 99% of american comic books are action, and the 1% are those boring urbanite losers writing autobios. You look at what Marvel, DC and Image publish and it's action series, Boom and Dynamite license old action cartoons and tv series and Dark Horse is mostly Hellboy which is action. But of course he's gonna be butthurt because despite the fact that he reads action series, he thinks it's good that these action series have boring and uninspired action scenes because action is immature... even though he's reading mostly action series himself.
Western comics are rarely good at action unless inspired by manga, and even then they don't measure up. You already know this.
>Action is just as important as drama or surrealism or whatever else
>or surrealism or whatever else
Ok.
>If fighting and action is inane
There's action, and fighting is a subcategory of action. It's the fighting I find tedious, unless it's wild or unique.
I read western comics for a long list of reasons, and fighting and depression are not included. Certain types of mental illness can have entertaining depictions in comics, but you won't be into those.
I read manga for the action, cute characters, and breasts, and a some of the same reasons I read western comics.
There's no need for you to hang out in Cinemaphile. I wish you the best, but don't come back.
>There are no handy tags and genre titles that can distinguish Bones from The Metabarons without having to fricking describe the comic's premise.
What do you mean? Just describe them in terms of genre tags. Nothing's stopping you.
You've got a gripe with someone. Don't take it out on me.
You're free to return to Cinemaphile too, since you haven't a clue about western comics. Good luck.
>You've got a gripe with someone
With baiting tards such as yourself.
What if you mixed fighting with depression and suffering from mental illness? Just a guy trying to punch the frick out of his mental demons that abound from some of the most fricked up baggage the world can offer and how he fares with that.
Wait no that's Berserk.
I am quite glad indie comics lack some of the most popular manga genres. Also, I prefer european to american comics.
>a small semi independent studio with a team of 10 professional artists, one writer and one editor backed by a trillion dolalr industry
vs
>a single amateur doing it for free
Manga give it's creators a lot of autonomy unlike Marvel but they are still products from a big company.
and the manga artists get paid like shit and they have 10 people helping them do a manga. It's a conveyor line business, churning the same endless bishonen or other endless shit. Remember Sturgeon's law: 95% of all of it is shit.
>Manga give it's creators a lot of autonomy
Fricking kek. Lol even,
>every magazine is Jump
Anime is generic drama/action disguised as artsy bs
Indie comics are just artsy bs
No one likes artsy bs except artists
My homie what the frick in My Hero Academia or Spy Family is trying to be """artsy"""? Anime and manga are on the whole some of the least pretentious media you will ever get.
Why do people even like My Hero? The MC’s such a simp for his bully, fawning over him and calling him “amazing”.
Grade A waifu designs, Miruko is among the most famous female characters in fanart, be it porn or normal fanart.
It's trash but still better than murrican capeshit.
The distribution for indies is fricked up and heavily policed for shit that is NOT popularity with the audience.
The truth is that post 90s american subculture is moronic and non americans don't want to read your soviet level of shameless political propaganda for the American Democratic Party
Even the fricking Chinese are less shameless than you on shilling their leaders.
>The truth is that post 90s american subculture is moronic and non americans don't want to read your soviet level of shameless political propaganda for the American Democratic Party
This is also part of it.
American comics have basically 0 international appeal whatsoever, and with good reason.
Frankly, most American comics have 0 appeal outside of the coastal cities in America.
I can smell the zoomers in this thread. Zoomers were a mistake.
If you think Big2 capeshit comics are bad, just wait until you start reading some indie comics. Majority of them are pretty terrible with only a few exceptions that are readable.
it comes down to marketing, that's all.
webtoons got popular because of their centralized distribution and marketing.
Western indie comics can do the same.
Additionally, Western artists aren't trying to appeal to the same demographics Eastern comics do.
>Western artists aren't trying to appeal to the same demographics Eastern comics do.
So who are they trying to attract? It sounds like they are trying to attract a very specific minority.
>gets zero marketing
>only distributed in specialty stores no one goes to
>only chances of marketing are social media ads no one reads or specialty conventions barely anyone goes to outside of the very big ones
>DUHHH WHO ARE THEY TRYING TO ATTRACT LOL
Not my problem.
Indie comics also suck.
its the same woke boring garbage but without the established popular IPs
It's just marketing, and staying power of individual series.
Also if the sky is blue why is concrete hard?
People don't want to admit that the issue was never about accessibility or "starting at 1" or any of that shit, but content, and indie comics don't solve the content issue, same as cape comics.
If the content isn't interesting to people then nothing else matters.
Content which involves artistic style, plot and delivery.
Most of it is just the same boring gay shit as the big 2 except without superheroes.
Show me a good horror comic and then we can start talking.
Part of the problem is finding quality stuff.
Manga lots of companies (and subsidiaries!) devoted to having multiple series of quality (sometimes of the same theme or genre) so if you find a series you like, it's usually just looking for more stuff from that company.
In the west, the only companies an average person even knows is DC and Marvel, and the belief is that's just capeshit. Maybe Archie Comics, but people just assume that's pure, unadulterated Archie issue after issue.
People who know comics can you companies, but what the publisher produces is all over the place.
IDW and Image comics, you're likely already familiar with the series you're interested in.
Dark Horse publishes everything under the son and Boom! is known for licenses and what else?
Most people not familiar with comics already don't know what to look for or where and it's too daunting, so they just go to manga.
Not to mention, just the normalities of American comics makes people weary. Most manga you can start at Chapter 1 but I had a friend asking me what Super Man #1 to start at and I had to research, because both the 2016 and 2018 iterations both start in the middle of arcs appearing to be the start.
Plus, at least in the west (assuming you don't pirate) manga is just the better value. I get a whole new volume for under $10, but a single new issue of a comic is $5. For the same content of comics, you're looking for $20+ used, and that's for mainstream capeshit. Used comics you can find cheaper, but same with manga.
There's just a branding issue with minimal effort to make it mainstream. It's why people still believe the same cliches about comics in media all this time later, despite most of us knowing it's not true. (Like how all video game references are bad pixel art called 8-bit, even if it's not, with bleeps and boops)
I love comics but there's a lot of issues with the industry. Enough to fill a whole tradeback.
>In the west, the only companies an average person even knows is DC and Marvel, and the belief is that's just capeshit. Maybe Archie Comics, but people just assume that's pure, unadulterated Archie issue after issue.
I think that's less the case in the upcomming generations. I know most of Cinemaphile doesn't have or deal with kids (thank god), but even my now 18 year old nieces grew up reading scholastic graphic novels and other kids/YA aimed comics. Not even manga. Marvel/DC to them are media companies.
>but even my now 18 year old nieces grew up reading scholastic graphic novels and other kids/YA aimed comics.
I hate to tell you this anon, but that applies to most kids.
I also grew up reading Scholastic GNs and kid's comics (and also newspaper comics, even brought them to school every day), and then I moved on to manga when I was a teenager.
I didn't get into comics outside of kid's comics/manga until I was in my 20s, and even then I only a few of them (personally I don't like cape comics or most indie comics for that matter).
>I hate to tell you this anon, but that applies to most kids.
Why would you hate to tell me that? I'm fully aware. My point is that kids don't think of comics as just DC/Marvel superhero stuff, they're exposed to other comics in an earlier age.
reason is crap is because of how copyright developed in the US, all the shit that copyright does was EXPERIMENTED and actively fought against/with via comics and other works versus manga which basically had only one or two main issues they had to deal with(having foreigners have complete control with censorship led to largest comicon/fanfiction/fancreation culture to allow locals to sidestep censorship and create a massive short run culture which led to loads of small/large time productions and cheap/well trained talent everywhere
versus marvel/DC having IP/content that HAD TO BE constantly produced/reintroduced all the time to keep the copyright both cheaply(and create so many different interpretations of spiderman/batman/superman that people NEW to the genre would have to have encyclopedic knowledge of the genry JUST TO gain access to old/new content
aka someone likes spiderman? now you have to dig through esoteric backlogs of spiderman, try to wade through various different artists/writers and various different combo's, years, additions, specials, limited runs, and HOW you can get access to said publications and how they all relate to each other
versus a manga that generally only has one type/edition(maybe an nice omnibus edition that has the entire series in one book(s)
coupled with said copyrights destroying googles ability to serve you useful info/sources for actual content
copyright has destroyed not only fanbases, but future fanbases, the ability of past/present talent to make a living, and access to modern talent/news/info
Your post is barely legible.
I feel like you have some interesting knowledge to share but you're not very good at expressing it
I don't get what the short run culture has to do with censorship
>Manga lots of companies (and subsidiaries!) devoted to having multiple series of quality (sometimes of the same theme or genre) so if you find a series you like, it's usually just looking for more stuff from that company.
I say this every time there's a comparison, but the digest format helps immensely with this, and it helps new authors get their foot in the door. Dozens of stories are serialized in thick magazines, all together. So even if you only grabbed this week's Shonen Jump just to read One Piece, you might discover something completely new in the process.
It's also printed on cheap paper in b&w to keep the cost down, so it's still affordable despite its size. The tankobon releases come out later for fans and collectors.
Of course, manga magazines are also themed around target audiences. WSJ is geared towards teenaged boys, so you see a lot of action and the occasional romcom. Doing this means you know what you're going to get instead of getting blindsided by some awful idea editorial forced like having Batman attend a pride rally.
The Western equivalent would be along the lines of if DC released a JLA magazine containing the stories for all their mainline heroes once a month, and still managed to keep the price under like $10. WSJ costs about 250yen for I think 500 pages, for comparison.
The manga industry figured out the magic of running a lot of similar stories, that are all technically different franchises from each other.
This lets them maintain a target market, without the burden of legacy.
Like the equivalent for the big two would be if Superman ended in the 50s or early 60s.
Then he was replaced by a story centered around an incredibly powerful morally good hero called Ultima Man in the late 60s before it ended in the early 80s.
Who was in turn replaced by another extremely strong hero who had a romance with a spritely girl, named Paragon, before it finished in the mid 90s.
Etc. Etc.
Each different but the same. Just like how every new authorship of Superman does something different, but the same, as any before them.
But, importantly, differentiated by name from the others so that new readers feel entirely free to start anywhere, regardless of the true legacy.
I don't know if The Big Two could do the same today if they tried it. Or if it is too late.
Something that i think doesn't get talked about enough in this context is manga genres.
People mention that manga has a ton of variety and appeals to different demographics and there is something for everyone, but the truth of the matter is that the simple fact that we know these genres *by name* is extremely useful.
Like, there is no western comics equivalent of the sheer versatility and usefulness of manga's shonen/shojou/etc genre titles, and then you break it down further with sports shonen/battle shonen/mahou shojou, etc. The genre branding is so strong that you can you can very easily recommend someone new works based on one or two things that you know they already enjoyed, and you will probably be right about it.
Western comics you have cape comics and... non cape comics. Sometimes there are 'adult comics' or 'graphic novels', but none of this actually fricking tells you anything about the comics in question. There are no handy tags and genre titles that can distinguish Bones from The Metabarons without having to fricking describe the comic's premise.
We take it for granted in manga, and I really do think the lack of a similar framework in western comics limits discussion and hurts sales.
One factor not often considered is that in Japan there's a larger variety of manga but most of it isn't brought over to the West because it doesn't even sell in Japan. For example Samurai 8 was made by the creator of Naruto but did so badly in Japan that it was canceled after 43 chapters (5 volumes). Had it not been written by Naruto's creator it would have vanished into the ether and never have been translated.
So when you look at translated manga you're seeing the best Japan has to offer, which is why manga seems higher quality than most comics.
Regarding indie comics they need a way for people to find the best ones, other than randomly looking at things in comic shows. Publishers/brands who focus on specific genres would help.
Viz has published a lot of canceled Jump manga so it's not just famous authors who get that treatment. It's definitely not just the best or most popular manga that gets translated. Not even including scanlations
But not all the canceled Jump manga, which is my point.
Why would Viz bring over Metallica Metalluca, Sengoku Armors, Smoky B.B., or Tokyo Wonder Boys when there wasn't even a demand for them in Japan?
They released that Red Hood manga that died in the crib. They release all kinds of garbage that failed in Japan
Indie comics are for smug buttholes so they don't have much broad appeal.
Good let's keep it that way, we don't most people reading our comics anyways
There is one part of the manga formula that the west doesn't understand. It's pulp. We need to bring back serialised anthology magazines or similar publications. Hell, while it wouldn't solve everything it'd even work for capeshit. It'd be a lot easier to pick up a thicker book of "capeshit:sub-category fortnightly" than to get all the floppies. It would create more continuity and community around those sub-categories as well. The flexibility of pulp was that you could have a publication that didn't require long drawn out stories. It could have a month with nothing but one-shots but you'd still get what you paid for.
The Japanese manga distribution model is closest to the superior pulp model and thereby the most creatively vital model in the market. If the west retook their pulp roots they could in theory be more prominent than the half-measure solution japan has come to. That said there's more creative rot/drain in American than in Japan so there's only so much a model change can do without long term cultural/industrial shifts following or allowing for said changes to cement themselves.
Pulps died becuase paper bcame expensive, that's also why comics suffered their intial collapse in the 60s.
Digital pulps seem more effective but that involvs trying to convince people to buy non-real material weekly.
Again, it works in Japan right now. They just need to downscale rather than collapse. This means less saturation, which in an extremely fatigued market (see capeshit cinema) is a good thing anyway. There were lots and lots of pulps which did give more creative opportunities to people but ultimately the beloved and well known pulps are then what the major manga publications are today - the winner's circle.
Another major difference between the modern western model, Japan and Pulps is that Japan has a vibrant and still relatively unobstructed fan economy. You can produce independent stuff viably in big events. There are less legal restrictions on doing so because fan works are accepted as creatively independent endeavors. Cutting one's teeth on fan shit and later developing original settings after earning a following is the JP equivalent of running stories for smaller pulp pubs then eventually getting accepted into one of the better reputed magazines.
You are absolutely right that digital is by all metrics better but unfortunately our psychology doesn't really allow for that. If something wanted to mix it up it would first have to get stocked along with other magazines. It would need a physical release somewhere for people to see it as viable and dependable - to say nothing of the fact that there's still resistance for people paying for digital media (especially in this scene where people are more pirate happy/tech savy).
>Again, it works in Japan right now.
printing in Japan is significantly cheaper. Just look at the cost of an american magazine vs a Japanese one.
I think what really costs is the ink, do you know how much it costs to print a color sheet compared to a black and white one?
Deposit your indie comic in my local bookstore
Am in south america in a city with under a million people
True, I've never seen I Hate Fairyland in a South American store. (Not Indie but you get the point)
Nothing that's already adapted or on a list of "Best comics ever" will ever get sold here, epecially cfloppies
Most of the popular manga isn't actually indie. It's distributed via major publishers.
Indie comics have a wide variety of quality but just because they're free from the restrictions of Marvel editorial doesn't mean they're good. And even if they are good, they're harder to distribute and don't have any official backing or advertisement.
And while I can't say with any certainty, I'd be willing to believe there's cultural differences between the people and distribution of Western indie comics and Japanese doujinshi. That could also be a factor.
>Most of the popular manga isn't actually indie. It's distributed via major publishers.
People on Cinemaphile have weird definitions for "indie."
I've seen people call Image fricking indie, which is baffling.
>It's distributed via major publishers.
Weird argument to use on the board that insists Image is indie.
While there are plenty of valid cultural reasons behind westerrn comics and manga having differing levels of success, the most obvious one is that the east CONSTANTLY has animated show adaptations of their manga. There is at least one every few months and like half a dozen high profile shows airing mostly concurrently. This leads to a larger readership for manga as a medium
People in the West ain't gonna watch cartoons. They still think that shit's for kids.
>They still think that shit's for kids.
It is.
Why are you here
All the indie comics I've seen, the characters looked really ugly. While in manga, the characters look attractive and beautiful. Therefore, I choose to read manga and not indie comics.
>clannad
>moeshit
>beautiful
... you mean "indie" comics like TMNT, Usagi, Spawn, Walking Dead and Saga at its peak?
They don't sale? Lol. Lmao even.
manga is popular because it is the only medium left that still makes non woke stories that feature cool and heroic light skinned male characters and sexy, feminin female love intresst.
indie comic are just as woke as main stream comics with constant white men bashing, blackwashing of history and feminist propaganda wish is why people don‘t buy it
Some ESL schizo always has to bring muh woke into it.
People hear about manga online and essentially have it advertised via anime. Manga sites and physical books point them to other manga. There's a pretty standard visual and narrative style to most manga so you know what you're getting.
None of this is true of indie comics. I love them, but there's just no way for anyone who isn't already a big western comics head to get into them.
It's never about if indie comics can be good or not, it's always indie comics don't cater to me the /misc/guy and instead cater to the Cinemaphileguy.
You don't give a rats arse about the quality just the politics and that makes you just as hypocritically guilty.
Anyway the real reason Japan has a thriving indie scene is becuase in the US fan-comics being sold are seen as a trademark violation that could legally froce the companies to lose the trademark. Coupled that with the lack of public comunting prior to phones where everyone could sit and read while travelling mean the market never developed and is never going.
>muh /misc/ muh /po/ muh /misc/
Oh shut the frick up, you limey c**t. Attitude like yours is why Japan is crushing the american comic book industry.
offended that someone called you seething stormfront losers out lol
Sounds like you're just o obsessed with /misc/.
>thread suddenly starts getting infiltrated with "M-MUH WOKENESS!!! MUH SJWS MUH FEMINISM"
>someone notices this
>"N-NO YOU'RE JUST O-OBSESSED WITH /misc/"
Funny how you ignore all the other points to zoom in on the "chud posts". If I didn't know this place better I wouldn't suspect you were making those posts yourself.
He's not wrong though, there's plenty of indie comics that are good but all that typically gets brought up in these threads are you tards complaining about "MUH POLITICS" and then praising Manga for not having politics even though they do. You're practically outing yourself out as a homosexual who only reads Shonen garbage and even then can't read between the lines to notice the politics in it
Go on Cinemaphile and you can see how miserable everyone can get with the state of manga and anime.
Weebs only come to Cinemaphile because they'll get banned if they start shitposting too hard on Cinemaphile
>there's plenty of indie comics that are good
Sadly, no.
Go back to your Batman, child. Adults are in here.
I don't read capeshit, sorry.
It's less that they don't appeal to /misc/ and more that they don't appeal to anyone who isn't an American urbanite.
There's a reason why I can talk about manga with people all over the world but no one outside of America gives a single iota of a frick about your average American comic.
Yup. This one right here.
I care wheb two yuri lesbian girls ride robots and get married
I dont care about a troony going loony in the binny while in the middlle of a troony city.
Here's the problem, do you think the /misc/guy or the Cinemaphileguy has tastes closer to the average person when it comes to what they like in media?
The state of the comic industry kind of answers that questions.
>It's never about if indie comics can be good or not, it's always indie comics don't cater to me the /col/guy and instead cater to the /lgbt/guy.
Fixed, you homosexual.
Manga that gets a release outside jap it's the fruit of screening upon screening because in jap everything is up to popular vote to stay alive.
Indie comics, and comics in total, are almost beyond all of that.
Quality seems better only because we get the cream that rises to the top
>read an American comic/graphic novel that's not capeshit
>it's either some degenerate LGBT shit retreading the same tired "concerns", or it actually is a standard story/adventure that shies away from anything sensational or interesting.
Manga is way less ideologically indulgent whilst also has no issue depicting all kinds of things honestly, even if it does so within obvious restraints
It's thankfully an issue that European comics don't have as much, but then you run into the issue of needing to get translations.
Jesus Christ the absolute state of Cinemaphile
>Thread about why do people care about sells, it's pointless just read comics you enjoy and you would complain if it got popular anyways also comics are cheap medium so don't need a lot of sells, deleted after like ten posts
>This thread still going.
Says lot about this board.
The fact THIS nonsense is STILL going, says a LOT about this board.
Because the american comic book industry is very unhealthy and it can no longer sustain unpopular comics. There used to be great comics being made... it's not a thing anymore. The american comic book industry is in such a rut that it cat only sustain terrible capeshit, awful licensed shit and movie pitch minis.
Why isn't there more American action comics, especially stuff taking influence from manga? France has it. You'd think with a generation that grew up with manga we'd see more artists doing cool action comics.
France accepts manga. The American comic book industry still hates manga with a passion and also looks down on manga.
I wonder how they feel about the massive success of anime and manga.
>France accepts manga.
>Caring what the french think
>In any era.
It's like
said, American comics artists believe that violence is immature, and are obsessed with proving their comics are "more than just dudes in silly costumes punching each other, you guyz!". The funny thing is they always prove themselves to be even more immature by making about teenage drama, shipping, and political axe-grinding.
Cultural differences are at play here. Reading a comic on the Jap subway is a regular thing, but not in the states. Someone’s more likely to be listening to an audiobook or podcast during the commute, let alone reading something that ain’t a text.
Have you good fellows considered NOT taking the bait for once?
Ah yes the famous indie comics about trannies like..umm...yeah...
No one but you heard of it
It's been storytimed on Cinemaphile multiple times.
In fact, I immediately thought of it because someone in the Cinemaphilenfessions thread a few days ago said it convinced them they were trans, which I find hilarious.
Shut up.
This thread is an east vs west bait thread that pushes the narrative of all ondie comics being about trannies (which is plain wrong).
Your posts propogate this false narrative. It's just one (1) troony indie comic that was shilled by some anon. It's not popular or well known anywhere.
Reconsider your actions.
Wic+Devine is a pretty popular title. And there's also Bolero. That's off the top of my head.
>someone in the Cinemaphilenfessions thread a few days ago said it convinced them they were trans
How???
Mental illness.
most western comics are abysmal at conveying dynamic action and motion, which means manga usually lends itself better to action driven stories.
a lot of indie comics are out there both in terms of art style and story, and often not in a good way because its made by a bunch of nerds or people in a subculture derived from punk culture. People dont want to look at ugly.
You're not saying anything that hasn't already been mentioned in the thread.
yeah well, I didnt read the thread. So there.
be that as it may, there's been two decades of manga being available and selling well in the US- where's all the manga influenced action? sure there's a few guys like Stotkoe, DWJ, Tradd Moore, etc, but you'd think there'd be more straight up Naruto imitators or something.
theres been more anime influences in animation, but its all derivative. There's a crisis in western art school where fewer and fewere teach classical art courses, but the ones that do are so classical they more or less stop at the modern period. It isnt at all geared toward comics or animation.
I think all those "serious" artists are not reading manga or watching anime.
Most anime influence for new artists seems to be mostly superficial. I've seen dozens of manga inspired gay romance graphic novels.
This is thread is nothing but delusional weebs posting their shit takes.
Do you ever notice how it's the weebs coming to Cinemaphile and not the other way around? I guess there's some sort of inferiority complex involved, anime in its current form wouldn't have existed without Walt Disney, after all
More like delusional neckbeards crying because manga is kicking their precious industry's ass.
>Do you ever notice how it's the weebs coming to Cinemaphile and not the other way around?
Anon, it's Cinemaphile.
Every board on Cinemaphile has weebs because it's a site created by weebs for weebs.
Hence why it literally copies its naming scheme from a Japanese website.
Why do you think the random board is called /b/ and not /r/, or the weapons board is called /k/ and not /w/?
Ignoring offtopic, bait/template and coom threads:
- on Cinemaphile I mostly see people discuss the shows/comics
- on Cinemaphile I mostly see people discuss the industry
Regardless of what you think the source of this is - board culture, moderation style, fandom health, fandom maturity, or inequal "cultural gravity" between two bodies of media - if industry comparisons pop up, I would expect them here.
>LLOOLLOOLLOLOLOLOOLLOLOOLLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOOLOLLOLOOLOLOLOLOLLOOLLOLOLOOLLOLOOLLOLOOLLOLOOLLOOLLLLOLOLOOLLOOLOLOLLOLOLOLOOLLOL
>DUH MAHN-GUHH IZZ MOAR BETTERERERER DEN DUH CAWMIXX N BEE-CUHZZ UHV DUH SAY-YOAL-ZUH
Why do you fricktarded c**tnugget Cinemaphileutists come to this board if you hate Comics and Cartoons so much and love Anime and Manga so much?
Is it because you're an extremely severely mentally ill sociopath and the "precious" dopamine rush you get from violating Global Rule 3 by posting east vs west troll threads is the only thing preventing you from realizing that your life is absolutely worthless and killing yourself?
I demand you answer me.
Everyone else, report him as soon as possible and as much as possible for the greater good of this board.
Seethe harder.
>waaaaaaa it hurt it hurt report report report
They're not One Piece.
Because indie comics still largely offer little in genre variety while also being largely filled with the same woke crap that made big two capeshit unbearable to read. You have to really dig to find good indies & dig even deeper to find great ones.
Lot of really good point ITT, one i haven't seen is the difference in perspective of artists east vs west. In the west artists are expected to push and challenge social expectations, as self-proclaimed sheperds of the masses. Of course, while also maintaining the strange sense of propriety for "mature content". Wokeness is the newest form of this, but western comics have been obsessed with seeming "mature" and "socially trangessive" for a long time now. In Japan it's understood that an artist is usually at the service of the readers, and should conform to the readers expectations. There are of course examples of the contrary, but those more exceptions than anything else.
Indie comics are, purposefully, hard to find. The industry in America is set up disproportionately to favor big name brands. The brands will typically buy out indie publishing that winds up getting marginally popular and essentially absorb them or shut them down.
These big publishing companies act essentially as monopolies. The comics industry is designed to keep the little guy out and to drown it out with as much crap garbage as possible.
The comics industry of America would do a lot better if it took on a similar structure to manga culture of Japan. Circulating its own manga volumes instead of trying to keep specific characters tied under one brand. But that will never easily happen in the west, because companies are obsessed with owning a character/story so completely and running it thoroughly in the ground for merch sales.
While not all manga is indie in Japan, Japan's manga culture has aspects of indie to it inherently due to how it's published. This intersects with Japans culture of not giving a shit about doujinshi and seeing it as free advertisement. The loosey-goosey application of copyright in these situations is very funny, given Japan does not have any fair use laws.
Compare this to America, which does have fair use laws, but is extremely paranoid about copyright infringement and seeks to copyright anything it can get its fricking hands on. A fanartist can get their indie fanfiction published and wind up becoming famous rather easily if their work is worth anything. It's part of how groups like CLAMP got big to begin with.
Contrast this with America, which has a fair use law, but is extremely paranoid about copyright infringement. Youre not going to see someone allowed to independently publish Homestuck fanfiction and make money off it here. Outside of the realm of fan content, you're also going to have a hard time finding or hearing about indie comics in general. This isn't even getting into the way censorship and other factors help to suppress creativity and support big publishers who have no interest in making anything good beyond bare bones capeshit.
T.endrant
Avatar had plenty of fan/porn comics because it was very popular (mainly by Palcomix). Sadly nothing has matched its popularity so the market is currently fragmented.
Though Star vs and Fairly Odd Parents did fairly well.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the incest.
Soul was about a black man who wanted to play the piano and a ghost being impressed with mundane things. It might have been comfy but it was dull.
You can say this until you're blue in the face, but Cinemaphile would rather blame shit like "wokeness" and Twitter than anything that's actually real.
That and this board is obsessed with sales; you almost never see threads on Cinemaphile asking about why every indie game made by an American isn't making money like Zelda because it's a dumb fricking question.
But anon, the big companies are stupidly woke, and far more politically restrictive than normal publishing, video or even fricking Hollywood.
>you almost never see threads on Cinemaphile asking about why every indie game made by an American isn't making money like Zelda because it's a dumb fricking question.
But you also don't see people on Cinemaphile trying to say that some shitty game flopped because people don't care about video games.
/v/'s industry is in a much better place than either of Cinemaphile's, even if only because of the indie scene and a few AAs picking up the slack.
Is this image from something, or just a cool sketch?
I always love these.
What was one of the most popular manga last month?
>Oshi no Ko
Awesome, here is how that reads according to all the fat opinionated heffers and homosexuals of the world that infest publishers all over and influence their actions:
>Having the girl be conventionally pretty is problematic
>It is very problematic to have her killed off, like this is some women-in-refrigerators style writing sweaty
>It has racial homogeneity which is definitely not OK
>It sends kind of a weird message when a big part of the story is a guy being reincarnated as the son of a celebrity he idolized seeking revenge for both his death and the death of his 2nd mom
>More of it should be about the sister and having her defy gender norms by not doing regressive things like being a pretty girly idol
Anyone can write My Hero Academia, but if you actually tried to publish that shit you're going to be called both unoriginal and a pedophile.
The unoriginal part is actually a problem because over here israelites crawl out of the wood work to try and sue your ass for any all character they think are too similar to the shit they have the rights to.
Did you know that on Twitter you can disagree with things people say and that the words of Harleyfan2202 don't matter that much except to chronically online gays like yourself?
twittergays absolutely have the power to affect who is alllowed to present their shit at conventions, and who has access to the marketplace.
Indie comics in the US typically are really boring autobiographies from very self involved people and they attract navel gazing c**ts who hate anything that isn't that. Like every other fricking indie comic is about them getting their dick sucked at sleep away camp or getting high in college.
I'd argue that this is an issue in the US creative writing field in general. The US SciFi scene is filled with unironic pedophiles who support frivalous lawsuits to try to take down their critics.
The gatekeeping is really political and has those people who uinronically keep folders about how to write good agitation propaganda. They'll basically blacklist you and file complaints to get your removed on Amazon and other vendors if they can.
>Indie comics in the US typically are really boring autobiographies from very self involved people and they attract navel gazing c**ts
Are there any indie comics that instead tell a rollicking good yarn? Capeshit stopped telling awesome stories a while back, so this seems like a niche that indies could fill easily.
>Are there any indie comics that instead tell a rollicking good yarn?
Guessing the answer is no.
Animated adaptations. Look at what happened with Invincible.
I remember when Soul was coming out and everyone spammed that pic a soul character and some generic anime girl. Then the film came out and ended up having more artistic value than 99% of whole anime industry. Funny how that works
Wait, Soul was actually good? This isn't you just baiting weebs. Sell me on that shit.
Yeah i liked Soul. It's a life reassuring story and the heaven visuals are influenced by surrealist paintings. The "villain" is technically 2d compared to the rest of 3d characters
Yeah it was nice.
The vast majority of people who read manga do so for free, and only buy for the sake of owning it either to collect or support. Even official distributors caught on to the fact that the most profitable move is to keep the latest 2 or 3 chapters as free to read, to encourage people to be able to "keep up" for free, hence keeping the discussion/fandom alive without much downtime.
The few indies that actually follow that model seems to be the more popular ones, least that I've noticed, stuff like KSBD and the like.
Indie usually means no marketing, all word of mouth. Which is slow by today's standards.
Manga may be driven by a small group of creators and assistants but most of them get the backing and marketing of a whole magazine that a series is published in, and usually cross promotion if they land in a magazine with existing popular titles.
depends on which indie comics. i figure eurocomics are fine.
in the u.s., the idiocracy here is so effective that people can't fathom a comic that isn't capeshit. indie comics are standalone. people here are so brainwashed they're uncomfortable with the idea of not spending money for a while. or maybe the story is for an audience that's intelligent. maybe the artist's work is good and advanced but that's too much for an idiot that can't appreciate quality when they're familiar with slop
Do you remember Moral Orel? Do you remember how it was canceled for being too adult for an adult channel?
The same thing happens in comics, you can't talk about writing anything with true freedom or seriousness, that doesn't happen in Japan where shit is truly serious and murky.
>Another "durr why is manga more interesting and popular than modern lame indie comics"
Seriously again with this shit? Is it really so difficult to grasp the reason?
>if shoes are really popular why aren’t washing machines selling more?
Idk what the frick point you think you’re making but it’s really stupid.
From Hell is one of the best things I've read in the entire medium and it sold like shit.
There's a big difference between Alan Moore and the usual indie schmuck. Eddie Campbell is fantastic too but I can honestly find a lot of really good indie artists and while Campbell is a very good writer himself, the point I'm trying to make is that these indie people are very bad writers and storytellers.
What is that from, anyway?
Indie comics only wanna write about "muh mundane drama"
You don't read indie comics
Name one indie comic from 2000+ that isn't troon stoner SOL or fantasy fujo gangbang
Prison pit. I named one, what's your next goalpost would be?
>Prison pit
>what's your next goalpost would be?
It's simple, it still falls under stoner shit.
But you said that every indie comic is troon AND stoner AND SoL? Backing out already?
not that anon, or this anon, but I point to
this is what I want. You got any action? cool action?
Kaijumax
spaceman
les blondes
https://www.fantagraphics.com/collections/graphic-novels
https://drawnandquarterly.com/books/
https://www.howlingpages.com/collections/mini-comics-and-zines
https://atomicbooks.com/collections/comics-mini-comics
https://onipress.com/collections/all-products
https://calibercomics.com/graphic-novels
https://imagecomics.com/comics/new-releases
https://aftershockcomics.com/collections
https://www.dynamite.com/htmlfiles/onsale.html
https://www.boom-studios.com/boom-series/
https://www.etsy.com/market/small_press_comics
Find your own, butthole.
Caliber still exists?
They came back few years ago.
Does Avatar Studios still exist? or IDW?
>Avatar Studios
http://www.avatarpress.com/
yeah but haven't published since 2019
IDW still around Sonic and TMNT still do decent enough numbers even if they're not good books but they are losing money hard.
https://idwpublishing.com/collections/all-comics
>yeah but haven't published since 2019
Damm, I remember them from the 2000s.
We should do a Small Press thread sometime but we would need to actually buy and scan these.
I buy a ton of small press, but I don't have a scanner
Saucer Country
Some recent indies in case you're actually interested:
>Acting Class
A group of people from different backgrounds meet in an nighttime acting class that starts out with icebreakers and getting over personal boundaries and turns into more and more bizarre personal voyages with each successive class. Warning: the art is drab and stiff and hideous, but it kind of works. This is like an A24 movie as a comic.
>Ultrasound (aka Generous Bosom)
A loser's car breaks down in front of a house in the woods. He meets the kindly couple that resides there, and is met with a strange proposal. This one's also a mindfrick. The art is also not up to par, but the techniques are interesting.
>Organisms from an Ancient Cosmos
A giant alien spaceship with very odd technology appears over the ocean and wrecks everything that's fired at it. A despised but super wealthy man starts up a project to take out out the invaders and protect the Earth from further invasions, with the support of a desperate US government. Art is also hideous.
No one does in this thread
>Dude indie comics are so ugly and gay i never read one btw
It's just weebs shitting out garbage opinions as always
Wasted trips
>Indie comics named: 0
Yeah, why would I read garbage?
>Obvious samegay
Genuine mental illness
He is. He's talking about the passion projects of people who are rich enough to draw their coffeehouse AUs/slice of life's and not the passion projects of people who survive by sheer talent.
I think Japan provides more of a viable livelihood in comics than America does, so you can't survive making comics unless you're rich or tenacious enough to live in near poverty most of the time.
>Japan provides more of a viable livelihood in comics than America does
No it doesn't lol you have a huge hit for that, most mangaka aren't paid shit.
They can eat. They are housed.
If anything the manga industry lot harder to break into and harsher vs US comic industry isn't that hard you can work your way though or just publish stuff on the spot vs manga lot harder and even if you do a doujinshi won't see as many as eyes as an self published comic can.
It's definitely more viable. The amount of people who make a living in comics in Japan is much greater than the US. I know a lot of cartoonists who have turned to tattooing as a living and just make comics on the side.
Mangaka don't make as much money as you think though, lot of them are just getting by. the internet has glamorized mangaka but it's a shit job and lot more work than most comics because only big names get assistance vs comics can be made by multiple people and hell you can have a job as just a letter or whatever and get paid not having to do as much.
Anon said it was a more viable career than comics are in America, which is absolutely true.
>Mangaka don't make as much money as you think though
I never said they're rich, but they still make a living as a cartoonist.
You gotta give up a lot of creative control for job stability.
There's more freedom in American comics when it comes to getting published, you got lot more work to do as mangaka to find publishers if you don't want to do a typical work and don't want to have editors messing with your shit.
Suehiro Maruo almost worked for Shounen Jump but refused because they wanted him to be more fitting for the magazine, he had to go an underground magazine and little publishers.
>you got lot more work to do as mangaka to find publishers if you don't want to do a typical work and don't want to have editors messing with your shit.
Not really. There are a bunch of magazines for that.
Not really, most are heavily edited by editors.
Well online it's a bit easier but still harder to get published because Japan far more picky.
>but still harder to get published because Japan far more picky.
Not really, like anon said, there are tons of magazines out there.
Someone already mentioned it earlier ITT, but you would NEVER see something like Made in Abyss published by Americans.
>you would NEVER see something like Made in Abyss published by Americans.
because it's shit? I mean we have shit but bad comics are more fun than bad manga.
What a sad cope.
How this a cope...Look at this, you can't tell me this is good. Manga fallen so hard compared to the old days when THIS Care Bears for edgelord shit is the an gold standard.
Go take your pills, grandpa, you get cranky when you don't take your pills.
Damn right I'm an cranky old man and manga fricking sucks now most comics fricking suck now too, this why I only read old shit for both these days.
Like I said, go take your pills.
Fossils like yourself should know their place, which in this case is a nursing home.
What manga you kids like today? some lame crap I'm sure.
The kind that boomers hate.
Say hi to Betty for me by the way, I know your "assisted living community" is looking a little crowded nowadays.
Look on the bright side, I hear suicide is always an option.
I know there's real reason to hate the goy generation, but you still look like an butthole when you shit on an olive branch like that.
Nah, he's a c**t, if he wants to act like a typical boomer c**t there's no point in arguing with him, just let him flail his arms and stick him in a nursing home to be abused (God-willing) after he has his first stroke.
There's something eternal about caring for the children and the elderly - those closest to our mortal thresholds - that is still true even on the precipice of hell. I'd rather take the high road.
And he may have a point, why are your aesthetics so infantile?
>I'd rather take the high road.
Sorry, I don't afford such behavior to boomers.
That entire generation took the low road and we all suffer for it.
The only "care" that c**t deserves is assisted suicide.
>That entire generation took the low road
Must be nice to live in such a black and white world.
You think key israelites explained to them what their choices would look like 40 years on when they were just living in the moment as a 23 y.o?
homie if he cares about Gunsmith cats he's not even a real boomer lmao.
All your brains are rotting to even humor this discourse as if we're talking about actual senior citizens.
Checked
You're right, but that was real unvarnished hate aimed at Boomers and while it needs to be recognized, strangling Boomers in their beds won't actually solve our problems.
He's not wrong tho nearly 80% of new and current manga (and that's being charitable) frankly sucks and don't get me started on anime which the quality of has completely fallen and gone to shit. Japs can hardly direct shit good anymore. And Shonen (manga and anime wise) is literally dying right now as we speak.
>He's not wrong tho nearly 80% of new and current manga (and that's being charitable) frankly sucks
Anon, that applies to everything.
80% of everything is absolute dogshit; comics, manga, cartoons, anime, video games, books.
Frankly, it's probably higher than that, it's more like 90%.
>Agrees
So you do admit the boomer was right all along. Lol then why did you sperg at him for. Also, yeah no shit 80 to 90%of everything is shit. But nearly all the manga and anime that is considered "good" or the best out right now has either fallen or is mediocre shit compared to where the medium was a few decades or even just a decade ago.
>So you do admit the boomer was right all along.
No, I think he's a moron, much like how I think you're a moron.
And the irony of saying this shit on Cinemaphile, a board where your average non-capeshit comic thread is lucky to get 20 posters, is fricking hilarious.
And a few of those posters would be dedicated shitposters who hate the idea of anyone talking about anything besides capeshit. Some of them are even in this thread
The autism of capeshitters is fricking staggering.
Still waiting
I'm gonna assume I'm gonna be waiting forever lol
>triggered because of the honest reality
lol
Okay so refer to me a popular manga right now or from the last few years you know that is on par to the stuff that came decades prior.
Sorry, I don't waste time on recs to nostalgiagays and boomers.
Stick to jerking off the same 5 comics and manga for the rest of your short life.
lol
No matter what anyone says as an example, you will call it shit
Because there are no good examples. This is like I asked you to name a movie in past 10 years that you could objectively say is as good as a movie a decade plus. If you were honest you couldn't. It's just the reality of that the quality of media has greatly fallen in comparison to where it was before (that doesn't mean everything is bad but in certain mediums the state is distinctly worse). That's just the reality so why can't you accept it also doesn't mean manga can't get better just means that as of now and for the past few years it's begun to suck. I mean if I was talking about modern comics I assume you would agree. So you think somehow the Japs and manga are safe from this.
>Because there are no good examples.
No, it's because no matter what you'll just say they're all shit because this is Cinemaphile and you need to protect your extremely fragile ego.
I'm literally just being honest. I don't care about being contrarian for it's sake or conforming to the consensus of this damn site.
>I'm literally just being honest.
You're anonymous, you have no reason to give honest opinions when anonymous.
You're only honest when you're forced to be, face-to-face.
Not that anon but are you moronic? you can be more honest as an anonymous person because no one KNOWS WHO YOU ARE.
Not when it comes to opinions.
I can say whatever the frick I want and there's no way you'll ever know if that's my true opinion, and since this is Cinemaphile chances are things will just be said just to troll.
It'd be like me saying all comics are absolute dogshit for trannies.
I don't know about you but I just say what's on my mind and what I know to be true.
In that case, what are some great comics from the last decade?
I tried can't think of anything. Could be something great but I wouldn't know. Now if it was the 2000s on the other hand I could provide a list.
Then what are some great comics from the 2000s?
Dude... you're pathetic.
>acknowledging the reality is pathetic
Lol how is that pathetic.
But I'll tell you what is pathetic the state of manga & anime and specifically Shonen manga & anime. Now that's is truly pathetic and quite a shame.
>Shonen manga & anime
Not my problem. Grow up, cape baby.
I don't even care about capeshit. I despise the NuMarvel Comics, the MCU and those SpiderVerse films. You couldn't be talking to someone who hated the state of capeshit even more than me.
I don't believe you.
-_-
>He's not wrong tho nearly 80% of new and current manga
There is zero chance you've read enough manga to say that. There are thousands of untranslated or niche manga
>He's not wrong tho nearly 80% of new and current manga
Why do you pathetic insecure fricks pretend like you can pass judgement on that? You can't read japanese so you can't read 90% of current manga. You're so afraid to face reality but no matter how hard you hide, the fact remains that manga is demolishing american made comcis.
>Why do you pathetic insecure fricks pretend like you can pass judgement on that?
A lot of anons here think that the manga industry is like the comic industry, just look at all the idiots who think Shounen Jump makes up 50% of all manga output like the big 2 do for comics.
I always do hat how they lump comics and manga as the exact same medium in the states.
They are the same medium without western comics there be no manga, America created the tropes and Japan copied, there's no doubt what so over.
It is the same "medium". The industry is different. They don't call Japanese movies and American movies different things.
The art is excellent for these but the story sucks.
What makes a good story?
One a simple action story that's fine and the other try to hard e-girl edgy crap.
>most
Sure, but not every magazine is Shonen Jump. Comic Beam or AX aren't going to have editor interference.
>Japan far more picky
lol
You have no idea how much stuff is manga is changed and cut, if it isn't like self published.
You have no idea what alternative manga magazines are like.
Not as much as american comics and pretending otherwise is downright moronic.
Only with big two.
No, with all the major publishers.
Even webtoon censors shit constantly.
Who gives a shit about webtoons.
People here jerked off webtoons as the "new bastion for American webcomics that would save the industry" and it just turned out to be more of the same.
And again, the other publishers aren't much better.
webtoons are the lowest common denominator for comics, it use to be Korean comics like real published ones since they where just manga clones but shit but now it's webtoons (which are mostly Korean kek). Someone gonna say Chinese comics but nah Chinese comics the action ones are pretty based and old ones big time.
Webtoons DID let some new blood and new shit into the industry. The publishers are still a thousand times more restrictive.
Based and pekar posting.
Which covers about 70 of the american output. On the other hand, Shonen Jump only covers about 1%. So I guess you really are a moron.
>Shonen Jump only covers about 1%
you're an idiot if you believe this.
It's less than 10%, moron, and it sure as shit represents less than what the big two does for the comics industry.
He's right though.
Shonen Jump doesn't even have as many ongoing stories as the other shonen magazines nowadays.
>he had to go an underground magazine
In 1984.
Y'know, 40 fricking years ago.
>Suehiro Maruo almost worked for Shounen Jump but refused because they wanted him to be more fitting for the magazine
Yea, turns out his weird guro rape manga wasn't exactly a good fit for a magazine aimed at 12 year olds.
He can do more tone down stuff than that and has before but it was still too much for Jump.
yes but it's still a /job/, which is the point. If you can't sell a series or make i like that on your own, yo can try to produce something like a doujin, or work as an assistant(yes even mangaka that "never use assistants" will probably use some in a pinch)
>because only big names get assistance vs comics can be made by multiple people and hell you can have a job as just a letter or whatever and get paid not having to do as much.
This isn't how most indie comics work. the difference between how assistants are handled by JP publishers and how American comics do it is that JP companies can network to provide a mangaka assistants if they want, and projects that required it can be budgeted to have assistants as needed. Indie comics like IDW or Dynamite handle it like an assembly line. The brunt of the penciling would still be done by one guy.
Stuff like fantagraphics or other truely indie projects- those are all largely produced by a single person or two because there's no money to hire an assembly line of assistants.
The fact that assistants are even a job with a branching career path at all says a lot to the stability of that industry.
IDW and Dynamite are more license publishers than actual Indie comics
True, I'm just saying that to cover all points. though it's worth noting that money is so tight with a lot of the payrates for even those are so minimal a lot of artists for them now choose to do the entire linework and often coloring themselves.
But moreover, the point is, if you want to work in comics in Japan, and you're at a decent skill level you can very likely find a living, as hard as it may be. In America, the market just doesn't allow for that. It's constantly pushing people out. When you're "in" the industry in Japan, it's harder to truly be out. even people who fall out of credits are still producing art for a living in some capacity.
>No it doesn't lol
Bruh, there are mangaka in Japan who make a living almost exclusively off of porn comics.
There ain't no one in America doing that, the only porn artists who can make a living doing exclusively porn in the west all live in Hispanic countries where the cost of living is minuscule.
>the only porn artists who can make a living doing exclusively porn in the west all live in Hispanic countries where the cost of living is minuscule.
Don't forget Patreon scammers who make a living scamming the same few hundred morons with some shitty unfinished game (Looking at you Summertime Saga).
>usually it's all 3 these days
You don't read indie comics.
No I do, I love SOL actually, but I am adult enough to acknowledge indie comics will never make it like this the way adult capeshit fans admit it's for children.
You obviously don't if you think all of them are slice of life stoner comics about trannies.
Indie comics are a niche and great niche, they don't need to be anything more than that caring about sells is pointless, as long as they sell enough to keep going all that matters. Enjoy the thing popular or not, why it need to be popular? it doesn't so who cares you just complain if it was anyways.
Femforce been going on for 40 years with 200 issues and doesn't sell that much at all but the boomer fans keep it alive and that's enough, it doesn't need more.
I agree but a few things.
Firstly, America NEEDS a good industry, we're meant to be the powerhouse of the world, we can't just let the Japanese, Asia, and Africa eat up all our business while South America gets by feeding the non whites of the world their beloved peppers and spices.
When OP asked "Hey uh if anime is so big, why isn't indie comics in da US Selling? Duhh."
The answer is simple and I agree with you:
Indie comics are the student and amateur film circuit of the US comic industry.
The problem is capeshit which is currently dying
>Currently? You must mean since 1970.
And is basically being eaten alive by crows and maggots while Japan comes in expecting a friendly rivalry but just has to stand there looking down in pity.
Then comes this gay going "INDIE IS NOT EASILY GROUPED AS troony DRAMAS CHUD"
When it clearly is, and enjoy it as it is, but op also has a point despite being moronic, the America's need to fight back, and do so by strangling out capeshit, indie is of no threat and can and will stay underground forever because in the same way all student films are just autobio shit by sad liberals, so is indie comics, we need to make a third path that will kill capeBlack folk and step over the pile of shit that no one cares about nor does any harm that is indie comics to punch the Japanese in their smug pretty noses!
>Like an A24 movie as a comic
Anon I don't think that's a good thing, but at least they're trying to be slightly more than just your average SOL based off those descriptions. I'll check and see if they are or aren't disappointments.
>Anon I don't think that's a good thing
It's not, but someone might be interested.
If the art and pacing/length were better in these comics, I'd consider them favorites (I more or less do with Ultrasound, but only by default).
>Then comes this gay going "INDIE IS NOT EASILY GROUPED AS troony DRAMAS CHUD"
It's not. You're moronic
>a third path
Yeah, there needs to be easily accessible, easily digestible genre fiction for people to pick up and read. And it needs actually good marketing.
I've been a comic fan my whole life, I love comics of all kinds and have looked all types of comics, you're just so angry sad dude trying hard to troll and failing poorly at it. Why don't you go read something might be good for you.
Don't you otakus love Slices of life in your mangas? remember love hina and all that shit? I think is not fair if slices of life are good in mangas, they can't be go on amerika comicbooks.
SOL manga is notoriously looked down upon by anyone with an iq over 12, and everyone knows it's just as bad as shonen shit.
Maybe I am old but back then in the 2000s/early 2010s Slices of Life were loved, at least with normalgays, I am not talking about people in obscure manga forums.
>but back then in the 2000s/early 2010s Slices of Life were loved, at least with normalgays
That has never been the case, outside of Japan SoL was almost exclusively popular with people who were big into anime/manga and otaku.
Prior to ~2011 normalgays only cared about whatever played on TV, and after that they only cared about whatever was trending online, which was rarely SoL.
it helps that Japanese SoL has cute characters, where as Americ**t SoL is some crude ass drawing that almost insults you for wanting to see beautiful, clean art.
Liek even a random ass JP SoL will have a beautifully drawn background (yes I know it's very often traced assets), where as American SoL is drawn like MM GRAYONS
And why exactly should characters be cute
Because i watched that 5 hour video essay on YouTube about muh evil america hating beauty or whatever unlike the glorious NIPPON
>almost insults you for wanting to see beautiful, clean art.
lol
Indie comic slice of life is grounded not a perfect happy world like most manga tends to be, it's a bit more melancholy, subtle and empty. People actually act like people not basic personality traits and the art is more a reflection on reality by being very basic and simple clean lines just showing the it in a pure form or exaggerated cartooning to emphasize the reality.
that looks boring as shit.
>what you wanna see well drawn shit? FRICK YOU
>Doesn't like Daniel Clowes.
I'm sorry the only art you can enjoy with your autistic brain which is most likely fearful of more grounded faces and bodies can handle is generic modern manga art.
Unironically this is the problem with lot of people, they find any art that isn't the typical generic manga stuff ugly even when it's not and ugly art not even a bad thing just depends on how it's done and the work it's done in. People aren't use to all types of artstyles like they use to be and it's a real damn shame because art gotten so boring on all sides even capeshit fans just want most basic looking generic shit. Hell manga that does styles that are different and unique tend to get overlooked or dismissed.
explain to me how any of that is "bad" art, because it all looks better and more exciting to me than shit like
that looks like something my great grandfather would read.
You got boring taste, that type of typical anime style is what wrong with modern anime today vs 80's and 90's use to be full of so many cool and unique styles.
Looks like something your great grandfather would read well he would have better taste in media than you.
>y-you're boring!
yes ok, I'm so insulted. I'll just have to cry into a pile of much nicer and prettier looking books.
Ok? Why are you on Cinemaphile at all? Even on Cinemaphile, they'd say you have basic b***h taste.
You are boring, ''pretty'' is boring.
I rather watch this
Then this.
both are charming in their own way, certainly more than the Daniel Clowes stuff that feels stiff and sterile.
So what? What's wrong about getting to know your grandfather a bit better?
Just have enough patience to get over the hump. The vast majority of fiction is boring at first and you need to give every story a little time before it can genuinely hook you and show you it's worth it. Comics can be the same way.
>what you don't like REALISM?
I don't, apparently most people think like me too and want something beyond realism. idealized people + detailed backgrounds is a better combination.
Clowes is anything but realistic.
It's grounded but it's not realistic at all.
Ghostwotld was great
American SoL means having to follow the daily lives of Americans, which for most people is kind of an instant turn off.
No one wants to read about the daily life of someone who's a c**t.
i liek mango and comix.
Mango and comix 4eva.
😀
I miss old Vertigo
Vertigo got replace with Black label just so DC could do DC IPs only.
Nothing has replaced the hole Vertigo left behind.
I really liked "PLUNGE" by DC Black Label.
>If gold is popular why isn't tin selling more?
that's what you sound like
Probably because indie comics have same dying sales model as cape comics. They need a 2000AD or Weekly Shonen Jump anthology.
>They need a 2000AD or Weekly Shonen Jump anthology.
bro newstands are beyond dead in America. Put free comics on TikTok.
Comics tend to be aimed at a specific, aged demographic, while manga is aimed at basically anyone.
The current comic demographic is old white liberal NIMBYs in their 40s, 50s, and 60s and a small handful of younger liberal white women, since liberal white women tend to be about as lame as your average old person.
No marketing
?t=3
Different markets.
Comics appeal to specific Americans and no one else.
Comics don't even appeal to American conservatives nowadays, manga somehow does a better job of that, which is hilarious.
capeshit is literally goyslop
its made to sell ink on paper to kids
Because
1- Western Indie comics are just as full of the same bullshit that drives people from Western comics to Manga
2- the ones that aren't have almost if not zero marketing. The only way they spread is Word of Mouth and Social Media, which is pretty much the digital equivalent.
One of my favorite series is Gold Digger. Almost no one has heard of it despite going for 30 years. Their only marketing is Antarctic Press's twitter, and the author drawing porn on the side that gets shared to various corners of the net, where someone might inform the comment section that he also has a comic.
Why are the gold bricks so hard to get? I want a nice, tidy brick, not separate issues.
They do Kickstarters for new volumes, they have the HC Gold Brick 2 color edition up right now, and you can choose the first volume as an add on.
It'll run you about $100+shipping for just the book, but they're top fricking quality.
Seriously, where can I go to stock up on anthologies of Gold Digger? I had to give them up one time and I want them back in my library.
Perry actually gave me the first three bricks of Gold Digger himself. Signed and everything. I was walking around a convention, he tapped me on the shoulder, handed them to me, and walked away. Still the nicest way I've ever been hit on in my entire life.
Perry really likes putting his girls in skin tight clothing and cramming as many pubic shots as he can fit into a single panel and still I find his stuff to be really empowering. His women are very capable and assume the world is theirs in the best way imaginable. Light, sexy fun stuff that's always been a good pick-me-up.
You had sign copies of comics and you got rid of them?
Life got very dark and I had to give up all my possessions at one point. Most of it felt freeing except for the art, papers, and some books, including my Gold Diggers.
Manga is better.
Manga is better.