If you think about it, he was actually right about everything and didn't do anything wrong except pick a bad master
If you think about it, he was actually right about everything and didn't do anything wrong except pick a bad master
If you think about it, he was actually right about everything and didn't do anything wrong except pick a bad master
Star Wars. Doesn't. Have. Gray. Morals. Even if we would limit it to 6 movies, let alone 3.
There is The Force - it is a force of harmony. Like in hoofed unnamed show, but with slightly less friendship and more zen. There is guys, who actively work for harmony. Some of this guys don't get harmony, but get access to telekinetic API, they make bad things like uncontrollable simultaneous editing of databases, putting all files in a single folder (worst of them just drop it on desktop), change everybody else's presets and throw in wishmasters for fun and removing concurents. This guys are bad. There is everybody else between them, but they can be affected by cool guys, whereas almost cannot affect cool guys on their own.
Dooku went against harmony. It is like trying to solve every problem by violently resetting your PC with turning electricity off and on until or miraculously works (it doesn't).
>It is like trying to solve every problem by violently resetting your PC
I do this all the time, when it crashes I smash the power button, wait a minute or two, turn it back on, then punch it a few times so it can stop being a slow piece of shit
Shut the frick up, George.
I sometimes wonder what if Obi-Wan had done anything else than what he did here. Like ask some questions, or pretend to play along, or research the guy's claims later. With a different approach, maybe Obi-Wan could've prevented a lot of people's deaths. Dooku outright told him what was going on.
Obi Wan was probably right not to join Dooku but he was also an idiot to not even consider anything he said
You're right, there is no grey in Star Wars which is why Dooku was the good guy
>You're right, there is no grey in Star Wars which is why Dooku was the good guy
The Old Republic managed to be both corrupt AND useless in a crisis, making the Separatists right to want to leave, even if most of their leaders were villains.
Dooku himself is an interesting case, he seems to have quit the Jedi for valid reasons and with good intentions, yet at some point fell under Palpatine's sway and joined the Sith, and the role he's playing in the Clone Wars is all for the sake of Palpatine's plans to decimate the Jedi ranks and grab more power for himself, but it's not clear how much Dooku realizes this.
>with good intentions
Something something road to hell. Not to mention that he didn't pursue harmony, but "action".
>it's not clear how much Dooku realizes this
He does more or less, but it doesn't matter, as by Ep. 2 he is a full fledged sith full dark side mode under Sidious.
Though there is where I'd argue Star Wars does in fact have "shades of grey". The "harmony seekers" were content to let the republic rot from the inside out and fall, taking billions of its citizens with it. Dooku had the right idea, but he was twisted around Palpatine's finger
It is not that harmony seekers weren't right, it is that amount of misinformation, trickery and dark side vision jamming from Sidious have put Jedi into lose-lose situation. Finding out Sidious was impossible nearly until the end, he's just THAT good. Actually, more or less correct decision would be to Yoda themselves to different hiding planets like Dagobah right at the beginning of Clone Wars and, eventually, to pull the same Luke trick, but with many Jedi still being alive and with students.
But, again, by tricking jedi into participating, Sidious has just outplayed them out of Republic, while also eliminating them.
Yeah, I can't help but wonder what was Dooku's plan here with this. Did he consider this a chance to strike at Palpatine? If Obi Wan had taken up on his offer what would have come of it? Heck, even if he didn't Dooku told him so much that had Obi Wan thought of what he said even a little he could have started to connect the dots pretty quickly.
Dialog in Episode 2 just does not make any sense. I wonder if this scene was not something internal at all but just added in to make the audience think he might not be a full on evil sith yet, until you see the red lightsaber.
I cannot think of what his actual plan was going to be, he set up everything to force a meaningless war between the Separatists and Republic. Was Obi Wan supposed to join in on the scam?
Yeah, I don't really get it either. In the novelization at least they mention that Dooku was hoping to return the Jedi order to how it was before it was wrapped up with the Senate and legal stuff. That he was planning on surrendering to the Jedi when they were nearing the end of the war and that he was going to, with Palatine's help, try to appear like someone who had good intentions but was misguided. Of course dying put quite the wrench in things, but so would have this little conversation with Obi Wan. Unless it's supposed to imply he's considering teaming up with Obi Wan and taking out Palpatine as an option I don't think that scene makes much sense.
Dooku seemed like he just went full evil warlord in Clone Wars and liked being that kind of guy.
But episode 3 Dooku, I cannot figure out what he was supposed to get out of the whole plan by posing as Space Hitler and instigating a massive colossal war. Seems like it is doing a better job of ruining the major corporations, that left to join his CIS, than the harming the senate and entrenched republic elite that control the government. No matter the outcome Dooku was going to be the big public face of evil that incited a huge war.
If he did not seriously try to win the war he would only end up dead or in prison
The problem here is that George Lucas muddles the waters all the time and none of this is clear. Just looking at the movies it is confusing if the Republic is shit because of stagnation and inaction by groups like the Jedi or if it is all Palpatine manipulating shit. It mostly likely is the latter because he did start shit on Naboo and the Clone Wars precisely to gain power. So all of Dooku's complaints about the Republic are really complaints about Palpatine's manipulation of the Republic. Trying to make Dooku a noble guy with a point who fell down a dark path is odd. One book talks about him criticisng Yoda not doing enough. But then he is out right coded as Sith and seemingly wants to kill his Master every other day of the week. The fact the conspiracy stuff was just forgotten about in the movies is kind of annoying.
Personally I feel like Dooku should have been a more tragic figure who genuinely thought he was fighting to save the Galaxy but was manipulated and not just another Sith mook. Some people say he is kind of like this but how he is depicted in Clone Wars isn't that, he is just a Sith mook. Kind of annoying when people talk about Lucas like he is a genuis but he muddles up the point a lot.
I actually feel like Dooku would work better if he was just plain evil and not some tragic or misunderstood character. Have him be the charismatic leader that easily manipulated the greedy corporate heads into funding and fighting his war, but a less intelligent evil than Palpatine who was actually manipulating him the whole time without his ever knowing.
Tcould have been interesting. The movies don't mention it but novelizations touch on it a bit that Dooku was from a very well off family. He really was a Count. A family and position he was able to return to after leaving the order. He had a place to return to and a way to learn first had what greed is and the power and influence it could have.
Well one or the other would have worked. Either make him super evil or make him tragic. What we got was confusing. The problem is the whole clone wars is a fricking mess and honestly.
>When Jango, Zam, or the droid could have shot her in the head in her bed the whole time.
Lol no. The plan was:
>We need to make them find the Clone Army for the war.
>But also our friends from TF want to kill Padme.
>So let us get the template for the army to hire an assassin to use a droid to attempt to kill her.
>And hopefully a Jedi will find the droid to find the assassin to then find the dart from the template.
>But also we will delete that planet from the archives so the Jedi will have to go to a 1950s diner to show the dart to some guy to track down the planet.
The clone wars was the dumbest shit ever to fricking happen. How about we just do this:
>Dooku and the Seperatists have clones. They are outnumbered so they clone aliens, (which is part of the reason why the Empire military is human centric).
>Republic is made up of seperate planetary militaries which Palpatine begins to bring under central control and swear allegiance to him. He centralises and militarises things. Shows how the whole system was built.
Instead we get conspiratorial clone army that no one in the movies really questions followed by off screen (well now shown in Bad Batch) movement towards conscripts. And the Bad Batch constantly makes jokes that "conscripts are bad lol" which is all based on a miscomprehension that "Stormtroopers are ineffective" even though the first film makes it clear they are accurate and well trained (when they kill the Jawas) but on the Death Star they purposefully allow them to escape to track them to Yavin 4.
Shit is dumb.
and the Seperatists have clones. They are outnumbered so they clone aliens, (which is part of the reason why the Empire military is human centric).
is made up of seperate planetary militaries which Palpatine begins to bring under central control and swear allegiance to him. He centralises and militarises things. Shows how the whole system was built.
And this works because mass unified clone alien army causes a shock to things. Republic is in disarray because despite having more planets their system isn't unified. Also having actual planetary forces fight and become the eventual Imperial military has far more stakes than clone troopers vs droids.
Seems like a huge amount of dumb luck to have the jedi stumble upon a planet manufacturing an army for them without any notice at all, and then the jedi and senate totally truest this gift horse army completely.
How could anyone ever see this somehow not working out amazingly for them to just luck up one day and stumble upon an army. Sure they will never betray them or take over the galaxy.
The intro Jango plot just never adds up. How were they so sure Anakin was going to be successful in tracking down Zam Wessel for Jango to shoot her with the super special Kamino dart in the first place? Why go through some overly elaborate assassination plot just to lead a jedi to Kamino at all? There has to be easier ways to get a jedi to wander there one afternoon.
>How were they so sure Anakin was going to be successful in tracking down
Something, something, Palpatine foresaw it.
The fact that people didn't question it more in the movies and it became just a forgotten plot point is crazy. I guess "war had started lol who cares where it came from".
The central problem with the prequels is the core idea: republic falls, anakin falls along with it, is a perfectly good idea but the execution was terrible. And hard core prequel fans rely on the concept above execution when defending it and usually say people don't understand or whatever. Clones vs droids had no stakes. There is no real reason for people to even support Palpatine that much as the war is often shown as far away and without significant consequence for large proportions of the galaxy. Show the devastation of the war and show us why an ordinary person might wish to become a Stormtrooper. Show, don't tell us. Palpatine manipulating things was so badly done in the movies. First two movies should have been clone wars then the last one should have been full on Empire. What is scarier? Chips in brains making Clones shoot Jedi is boring. Full on fantatics willing to die for their Emperor? Much more interesting. Alien clones causing devastation followed by fantatical sentiments rising and planetary forces declaring their allegiance to Palpatine make so much more sense. The "this is how liberty dies" scene feels like it has no weight tbh.
Even then the OG movies sold the concept that Anakin was a low backwater with pie in the sky dreams farm boy that ran off to go join the war and eventually obtained the rank of jedi. All of that former slave, chosen one stuff was weird and unnecessary.
>All of that former slave, chosen one stuff was weird and unnecessary.
Lucas is all over the place. He said balancing the force basically meant killing all the Sith because they pervert the force.
>Originally Emperor was a figurehead puppet of military, then changed to overall big bad.
>Promoted the love triangle, even right up until Return only he didn't know how to resolve it so made them siblings.
>"There is another" line was going to be done in a different way.
>Boba Fett didn't live up to his expectations so he just decided to throw him in the pit, then realised how popular he was and later decided to stuff him in the prequels with Jango.
>Obi Wan robes and his training Luke with the probe is actually all official Jedi gear and robes.
>Jedi being a kind of wandering warrior monks inspired by Japan, instead make them bureaucrats with a headquarters on the capital planet.
Sometimes it is like the man knuckles down and comes up with a good concept only to later forget what he was going for later on and ruin it.
A central problem of the entire franchise is that Lucas never understood the Empire. He could see the degradation of society's liberties under Bush, or the imperialism in Vietnam, but he didn't understand how or why. At best, he thought it was down to fear, or because of lies and manipulation, which is both true and wrong. He could never understand how anybody could ever fight for the Empire without being brainwashed, how the Republic could be anything but a golden beacon of goodness which would last for thousands of years if not for the bad actors within it.
The same thing which makes Star Wars so attractive is also what lays the foundations for it's failure, that is it's unthinking idealism. It exudes a simple positivity, a feeling of childhood assuredness, where everything is so clear and you know just the right way things are supposed to go. But that's not the truth, it's just a shallow dream. Because Lucas could touch this fantasy, he could also never make Star Wars true to life beyond the mythology he was drawing from.
Ultimately he just primed generations of children for arrested development, being unable to view the world with more depth than a fairytale.
Just manufacturing a war in general lets Palpatine centralize power and gain more authority. He can nationalize the banks, nationalize the militaries of several planets until he has an empire at that point, use war and spy threats to tighten his grip and send secret police to disappear dissidents, fortify worlds until they are basically enslaved,
Cloning Geonosians would have been a better use for them in the movies. Billions of flying smart bugs with blasters is kind of terrifying for most scenarios.
>but how he is depicted in Clone Wars isn't that
Yeah, that's part of why the only thing I really bothered with was the movies and the novelizations. Everything else I like to view as bonuses but not at all necessary or worth diving into. It makes the already kind of strange places even more muddled.
It is odd the way it played out. While I get what Dooku's plan was, I don't really think he thought it through well. He somehow genuinely thought a surrender and an "I'm sorry, I just wanted the best for the Jedi and the republic and I was tricked." would be enough to not only get back on the republic's good side but that he would be given a good place back in the Jedi order and influence the new era of Jedis so they can return to the past greatness he wanted them to be again. I don't really see why he thought it would be so easy. Even when Palpatine recruiting Anakin was part of the plan. That couldn't have realistically been enough to sway public and Jedi opinion, even if Anakin was the most popular Jedi of the republic and a hero to people.
How many worlds did the CIS conquer, subjugate, or bomb the population centers? Seems like a very hard sell to get back on their good graces after some surrender.
I cannot get any kind of a master plan for Dooku here since he joined what he knew was an evil murderous cultist, then decided to pose as the evil ruler of a nation that invaded the Republic. He was specifically the public face of actual evil in galactic society.
Maybe if Palpatine sold him on some plan that Dooku was supposed to be the actual winner of the war, with Palpatine intentionally weakening the republic from within and using bad war plans to kill off as many jedi as possible.
>Ends up killing fellow Jedi.
>Helps start a war that ravages the galaxy.
>Ends up mistreating the common people, the helpless, the weak. Even his own people on his own planet. Kills millions in his strive for power, which originally stemmed from just simply rejecting the Jedi. Dooku may not have fallen as far into the Dark Side as others but fell enough to where his original intentions became corrupted for his own gain.
>Just looking at the movies it is confusing if the Republic is shit because of stagnation and inaction by groups like the Jedi or if it is all Palpatine manipulating shit.
It's both and another reason.
The Jedi became very vain and shortsighted, allowed themselves to become government weapons eventually instead of being true to the force and stand for the common people.
Palpatine simply took advantage of this, and used the dark side to further cloud their judgement. He then used his charm and manipulation tactics to gain hold of an already corrupt Senate, most of it's members and financial backers only there to make bank.
From there, he took more and more power. And all under the Jedi's noses.
All necessary sacrifices for the greater good, anon
There is no greater good other than harmony of The Force in Star Wars universe, anon. Shith manipulations are always bad.
Nothing in episode 2 makes sense. This is the same movie that had the sequence of
>Dooku hires Jango Fett to assassinate Padme
>Who then subcontracts out to a master shapeshifting spy to assassinate Padme
>Who uses a droid to assassinate Padme
>Who releases easily detected space centipedes to assassinate Padme.
When Jango, Zam, or the droid could have shot her in the head in her bed the whole time.
Or either one could have walked on in the hotel room and killer her when Obi and Anakin fly off chasing the droid leaving Padme alone for an hour or two.
Or...absolutely everything to do with Sifo Dias. Why invent that name for a guy that will never appear? Why make up a name that sounds an awful lot like an alias, and similar to the guy we know exists named Sideous?
The script has so much unintelligible nonsense in it it feels like it was translated into three languages and back into English and then used as a final draft.
A better question is why no one questions why Jango Fett, highly skilled professional assassin, chose to clean up after a failed hit with a borderline unique poison dart launcher that lead back to his current home rather than a regular sniper rifle or something. Start pulling that thread and you realize what a trap the clone army is.
He could have finished up that failed hit by killing Padme with the saber dart
There's an episode of Clone Wars where Dooku straight up says that he told Obi Wan literally everything about Sidious' plans on Geonosis
His only mistakes where in the company he kept. If he got to Anikin first he'd be at worst an Obi Wan who doesn't shy away from killing.
I forget but why didn't Dooku go with Qui Gon to Tatooine?
Apparently he was already being yoinked into being Palpatine's apprentice before either Qui-Gon or Maul died. That's how deep Sheev's foresight is.
I feel like the Jedi open door policy allowing anyone to just leave at any time sort of sets them up to just be future dark siders.
You have someone with just zero skills outside fighting and killing people, and they are a child trained super soldier murder machine, who can very easily slip into being baby eating evil if they just have a single bad afternoon. Their superpowers are also a dangerous balancing act that can switch to total evil if they are not always careful. On top of no marketable skills outside of killing people, they have no contacts, family, or support system, and no money. What else are they supposed to do?
Well I imagine that's the reason most Jedi don't leave the order. They've got nothing outside of it. Dooku was an exception since he had quite a lot outside of the order
Containment thread, mousecuck.
Count Dooki
Well yeah, wasn't that the point that the Jedi in the time of the Republic had it wrong, going too far into the light? Putting ridiculous expectations on people that led to Anakin going dark side? Dooku was doing pretty good not falling to the dark side until he was forced to from what I remember. He didn't want to be bad, but the Jedi needed to change, and if he had to be a sith to do it then so be it.
Count Dooku was a visionary.
>pick a bad master
Not like he had much in the way of options in that regard.
What's all this "Dooku secretly wanted to return to the Jedi thing in the end" stuff coming from? I thought it was clear that while he might have had noble intentions for leaving the order, he became evil, turned to the dark side, and was all on board taking over the galaxy as a Sith ruler. He just thought Anakin would be both Palpatine and his puppet, which is why he looked so shocked when Palpatine ordered Anakin to kill him on the ship.
>Dooku secretly wanted to return to the Jedi thing in the end
The novelization established that as his end goal. Of course, it was going to be a Jedi order he intended to return to in a position of power eventually, but either way he intended to get back in.
How the frick would that work? How many Jedi did he kill during the war?
No clue. Apparently he thought it would just smooth itself out. Seemingly with influence from Palpatine and with Dooku helping win the last bit of the war to redeem somen of his image.
If Dooku was a true Sith, he would have just outed Palpatine as a Sith Lord and beaten the Republic straight up. And he especially would have just killed Palpatine while he was locked in the chair.
Instead Palpatine told him "Okay, I'm going to have you beat this Jedi Council Member and the Chosen One (who I've been openly grooming as an apprentice for years) at the same time, and uh, we'll go from there" and he actually did it because he wasn't Sith enough to understand that Palpatine would replace him at the first opportunity.
Just a wasted character with so little thought put into his original characterization that it's impossible to draw anything from him. Was he ever even a political idealist or was he always a mustache twirling douche? In an ideal world Dooku would be equal and opposite to Anakin. A man from royalty who came to the Jedi out of apathy, incredibly skilled, but his background leaves him callous to the plight of the greater republic. Dooku should represent the failure of the Jedi to act, the one that allows slavery in the outer rim while Anakin represents the opposite failure in which the Jedi overreach in vanity. Dooku is only then moved into action by the death of his apprentice, his motivation to start the war should be to divorce the Jedi from the Republic.