In the early 90s, there were two different Sonic cartoons airing at the same time. One was dark and dramatic. The other was a hilarious comedy about chili dogs. And the same guy played Sonic in both shows.
Isn't that wild? The same guy playing two different versions of the same guy?
yeah
SEGA should have Classic Sonic voiced by Urkel in the next game.
I was just thinking about this last night. I'm not familiar with the games, but has Jaleel ever done anything for them? A cameo at least?
From what I hear of Sega I wouldn't be surprised if it's no
Nope, he never voiced Sonic in a game
Jaleel White can't do the Sonic voice anymore. Source is that fan made live-action Sonic movie made about a decade ago, they got White to do voicework for it and it sounds all sorts of wrong.
Ah, too bad, but not shocking
his recent voicework on that urkel special sounds pretty sonic-y, it sounds like a mix of sonic and urkel
How old is he?
46, apparently. I'm not surprised he can't do the voice anymore. He was still a nasally teenager when he did AoStH and SatAM. You can tell in Sonic Underground that it was starting to get tough for him to do, because he was in his 20s at that point.
He’s doing some Urkel thing for Christmas, his voice sounds like Sonia from Sonic Underground
He is not even 50 yet? You look at him and swear he was mid 60s at least.
Cheese does that to a jogger
>too bad my vegana eats people. you know, on account of it being robotized and all.
The freedumb fighters will never return! 🙂
satam was edgy garbage written by literally noone who'd ever played a sonic game ever.
And that's a good thing
It makes more sense when you realize it was based on a concept that Ben Hurst had been trying to get approved as a show since the late 70s and literally followed the fantasy tropes of the late 70s and 1980s. (Hero saving a kingdom from a great evil and is the love interest of a princess and her ragtag team of rebels/freedom fighters.. Literally star wars plot too)
He got a chance to get his scripts greenlit for his passion project if he made them all sonic characters.
Source on that?
Years ago there were both leaked images and a pitch that was dated in the late 80s I read it years ago on an site where someone claimed to have gotten an old draft where Princess Sally was the main character with her troupe of freedom fighters fighting some warlock/wizard I cant remember the name of that was pitched to DIC in the late 80s to contend with the likes of She-Ra and other girl power like fantasies. This could have been faked bullshit based on the promo images (dated 1992 and looked very don-bluth esque) the draft was allegedly by Ben Hurst. Seems to have been lost to time. It would explain Ixis Naugus as he may be what was left of the role that Robotnik filled.
But it tracks. It would explain why the series literally follows every fantasy trope from every 80s cartoon about medieval fantasy.
Evil wizards/Dark powers taking over kingdoms, heroes or royal family members that survived getting revenge or defeating the great evil, etc.
The show threw out almost everything about the games other than sonic goes fast and some vague shit about power rings (being treated like chaos emeralds in some weird lady of the lake crap)
That being said SATAM poisoned the perception of sonic but also may have saved it due to the long dry spell of proper games after sonic and knuckles, with the first real sonic game being Sonic Adventure in 1999. (1998 for japan) if you don't count the random game gear games and spinoffs, or shit like sonic 3d blast and sonic R.
I prefer the Japanese sonic over the retconned US sonic any day. Though the OVA was weird, and Sonic X was far from perfect. Growing up in that era, we got the better games, but gen Z got the better shows. (Sonic X and Sonic Boom)
They just finally admitted sonic 2 was supposed to be a time travel game that was to be the genesis version of sonic cd (albeit done differently) Sadly Ben Hurst died so we will never know if it was true or not.
Those promo images were just people at DiC conceptualising, they knew about Sonic but like all creatives had a go at their own takes before settling back with the designs given to them. As for that alleged promo… well to be honest most writers from that era just recycled outlines they had already done so I can believe that.
Most "classic fans vs 2000s fans" fights can be boiled down to those who grew up with Memphis era (80s-early 90s) vs those who grew up with Y2K/Frutiger Aero era (late 90s-2000s).
Pre-internet vs post-internet, Mobius vs Earth, Robotnik vs Eggman, Sally vs Amy, MTG vs Pokemon, no memes vs memes, 2D vs 3D, West having its own canon vs worldwide Japan canon, pre-globalization vs globalization, etc.
It wasn't just "Sonic changed in 98-99 and split the fanbase", the entire culture and world changed around that time.
You know, that's a very good point. Sonic is highly tied to whatever time period you first encountered him in.
>90s Sonic
THE Video Game Mascot, Rival to Mario and the definition of the Attitude = Cool mindset. You play the games for the games; any "lore" comes from the comics and cartoons.
>Adventure Era Sonic
Baby's First Shonen Protagonist, leader of a bad of playable characters with epic story-lines and new characters every game. The gateway to many people getting into online fandoms.
>Post-Sonic 06
A fricking joke and a relic of the past. All of his media is clogged with seemingly unnecessary plot and a bloated cast. The Golden Age of "Classic vs. Modern" shitflinging.
>Post Generations Sonic
Purposely self-deprecating and ironic. SoA is "in on the joke" and supports memes. Leans heavily on both nostalgia carrying the series. Lore dropped just so people can enjoy the damn games, but at the cost of Western fans losing the last bits of localization.
>People can only enjoy the games if the lore and cast are stripped away
Considering the sales gulf between Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces, he may be right.
Forces outsold Mania by a lot though?
They're about equal in sales, but Mania sold twice as many copies.
>Lore dropped just so people can enjoy the damn games
How does Frontiers fit into this because it's the most lore heavy game in the franchise.
To be honestly, Mania was the start of a new Sonic era if we're going by this post's breakdown.
I'd say Post-Mania is when Sonic got legitimately popular again. Two blockbuster movies, actually critically acclaimed games, them focusing on a core cast, actually doing something new with the nostalgia, and letting spin-off media do their own thing again. For as lore heavy as Frontiers is, it's still really only focusing on Sonic, Amy, Tails, Knuckles, and Eggman.
>For as lore heavy as Frontiers is, it's still really only focusing on Sonic, Amy, Tails, Knuckles, and Eggman.
Frontiers is basically Sonic Adventure 3.
lmao
Okay but think about it.
Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Big, Eggman, a creation of Eggman's that turns good in the end? That's Sonic Adventure's cast.
Not to mention the ancients are explicitly precursors to chaos and a lot of the egg memos all reference the events of SA2.
From a story perspective the game does draw from Adventure more than anything else.
>a creation of Eggman's that turns good in the end?
This is just Dragonball story structure theft, and Sonic is a pro at that.
They should've extended '06 Eggman's red coat instead of leaving that big black patch.
Era Sonic
That's me
>Dad had a Genesis with Sonic 3
>played it in my early years, somehow ends up disappearing
>watch Sonic cartoons but never played the games
>few years later, go to cousin's house for the holidays
>he's got the new Dreamcast with SA1
>played as the main trio
>get hooked on Sonic from then on
Thanks cousin, ended up watching Sonic X anytime it came on, tried my best to keep up with Archie, first Sonic game I wholly owned was Advance
>it's impossible to have fond memories of both
this is the kind of autism that people have where their foods can't touch isn't it.
There's some people who like both, but for a lot of people the first era they experienced is the one they "stick with"
Like somebody who was 25 when Unleashed came out isn't gonna gush about it like they do with Sonic 3.
>but for a lot of people the first era they experienced is the one they "stick with"
this is pretty much how adults are. Like how they obsess over the football team that their dad liked when they were 8.
And also, since a huge cultural shift happened between the classic and Adventure eras (Internet), it just exacerbated the divide and made people even more preferring of "their" era over the other.
>worldwide Japan canon
anon, no one in the UK or Australia gave a shit about japan canon either.
UK and Australia are literally part of the (cultural) west
>using the Cinemaphile meme in a Cinemaphile thread
oh, you daft twat
The Saturn Dry Spell didn't help either.
in keeping with that, would the dynamic have been better if Sonic had actually been an outsider from some far off part of Mobius? Feels more reasonable than him just being the one guy in his community who just randomly has super powers
Could say the same for IDW b***h.
>satam was edgy garbage written by literally noone who'd ever played a sonic game ever.
more than half of the archie comic writers never played the games either.
Hell, Penders was proud of it.
>edgy
How? Other than having a very slightly dark tone what was edgy about it? No one died in it or if they did it was off screen, there was always hope even when they were fighting a losing battle, there was some goofy ass jokes by the guy who voice fricking Steve Erkle for fricks sake. I hate homosexuals like you that screech the word edgy for content that in no way was edgy. Have a mildly dark tone =/= being edgy you stupid homosexual.
>How? Other than having a very slightly dark tone what was edgy about it?
you're probably talking to a contrary zoomer conservative child. They think that admitting smog or dumping oil into drinking water is bad is like a grand conspiracy to get them.
They think that version is edgy because robotropalis was an overly polluted shithole.
Yeah, SatAM was pretty lighthearted despite the setting looking quite bleak.
Fr. Yes, it was a darker setting and there were darker moments but there was nothing in there that would have outright scared the shit out of kids. People that say that SatAM was edgy are sensitive af
Honestly one of the problems with the show is that they never quite get across the idea that Robotnik actually controls the entire planet, or even has a particularly firm grasp on anything outside the immediate boundaries of his city
While there's spotlights of pollution occasionally, there's frequent displays of large amounts of territory with basically no trace of his presence as well
Also being a casual and lorelet, what's the deal with the war mentioned vaguely? I kinda always assumed/head-canon'd it was the Acorn kingdom furries fighting humans and Robotnik and Snivley were turncoats. If that were the case though, what happened to the rest of humanity? Where did the two of them come from if there isn't a human civilization on Mobius?
I genuinely believe that SatAM Robotnik had some funny moments on par with AoStH's version. His comedic lines are underrated, but he's a pretty infrequent character on the show comparatively and he isn't funny all the time so I can understand.
Not to mention the show is filled with comic relief like Antoine and Dulcy. Whenever I see people call Satam edgy and dark I can only think of pic related.
It was edgy for a kid's show in the 90s, and the whole robotocization thing
It’s definitely got darker scenes compared to the other show but please, go back to Weenie Hut Jr’s
It's not edgy at all, like just cause has funny animals you think it's edgy but if they were superheroes or teenagers you just be like oh another 90's action cartoon.
Not even by kids show was it particularly dark. Also, the roboticizer was created as a medical tool.
>Also, the roboticizer was created as a medical tool.
That's merely in-universe justification for the bad guy's tool existing, after the fact. I agree it isn't a dark show though.
Yeah, I'm just endlessly amused by that. Someone's too fricked up to heal? Turn them into a robot!
>Forgive me, brother. You must live. Even if it's as a machine, I can't lose you!
>One... *cough* question...
>*sigh* Yes, Jules, you'll still be able to frick your wife.
>Okay cool, let's do this.
"a beam that turns good guys bad" is typical fricking Saturday Morning Cartoon shenanigans. It's neither "deep" nor "dark."
>satam was edgy garbage written by literally noone who'd ever played a sonic game ever.
What, all two of them? Because that was all the writing team had to work with when SatAM was in development.
That reminds me. I have to ask where all the "SatAM is too edgy for Sonic" comments come from, considering that the end levels on both of those games get markedly more serious than the rest of the game.
I think it really just comes from people who never watched the show but saw screenshots and watched the intro, and just accepted what everyone else said about it as true. Many such cases etc. The same thing happened with 'Sonic had a rough transition into 3D' which at first referred to things like 3D Blast and Sonic R which even fans of those games would agree were jank, but became associated with Sonic Adventure onwards because those games weren't regarded as well as the original trilogy.
Because in the games, places like Scrap Brain and Metropolis are still full of color and life, albeit in a twisted mechanical parody of the rest of the game, while SatAM's Robotropolis is totally dead and grey and only pushes the idea that Robotnik is less a goofy mad scientist like in the games and more the personification of purest evil.
They were both made by the same studio and were originally the ssme show, so Jaleel White was just hired by DiC to be the voice of Sonic, period.
It's a bit weird that they got two voice actor for Robotnik, but it was worth in the end.
Yes, both Robotniks was good on their own right. And sexy
they were two very different interpretations of his character, so it would make sense to get two different va's to potray them
It was originally supposed to be Jim Cummings as Robotnik in both shows. Not that Jim couldn't have pulled off the AoStH version, as Lord Boxman would later prove, but Long John Baldry was the better trade-off.
Jim could have done AoS Robotnik fine, but with hindsight it would have been an incalculable loss not to use Baldry
On the flipside, Baldry voiced KOMPLEX in the Bucky O'Hare cartoon, so he could have just as easily performed a serious Robotnik.
Yeah, Jim did a fine job in the AoSTH pilot. But Baldry is a fricking legend.
Sonic should never go dark and I blame the completely ingrained and baffling inability to do stories that don't revolve around a resistance group on satam.
>Sonic should never go dark
I agree eh should go fast adn hit da bad guiz IN 2D with NO SHITTY FRIENFS!!!1
>Sonic should never go dark
Can you back in time to 2001 & yell that to Sonic Team before they make SA2?
That would help a ton. thx.
>Sonic should never go dark
>Sonic in 1993
Doesn't count. Those are game things and games are bad because zoomers and adventure
Can't we just talk about SatAM without some moron b***hing about it?
SATAM wasn't dark, it was typical 90's adventure cartoon,tired of this misconception like Jesus, it's no darker than anything else, not like it was fricking Batman.
>like Jesus, it's no darker than anything else
Not sure if that was your intent but lmao
>SATAM wasn't dark, it was typical 90's adventure cartoon,tired of this misconception like Jesus, it's no darker than anything else, not like it was fricking Batman.
yep. Its only dark to people who grew up on bean mouth teen slop. Its no darker than something like Avatar
>Back In home town early for thanksgiving week
>Cousins all want to watch Scott Pilgrim
>I love the movie so I agree
>He says the sonic line
>Haha that sounds like something you'd say anon
>He explains the x-men jacket
>Haha anon he's totally like you
>"Well Except he has rizz" chimes in my little cousin
>Maybe if you got a gay sugar daddy you'd be doing better too anon haha
I hate this fricking holiday.
Maybe you should try a little harder anon
Wrong thread?
Not really
OP's post is taken directly from Scott Pilgrim Takes Off, but everyone missed the reference
You get lost, buddy? The Scott Pilgrim threads are elsewhere.
I preferred AoStH and I'm tired of pretending I SatAM was the better show.
AoSTH aged better. The team was given next to nothing to work with by Sega, and instead of adapting to some horse shit autistic fantasy trope, they just did whatever they felt like.
Remember this was 2 years in. Sonic could have just been another failed franchise line in the making like so many franchises prior to it. So who gave a frick if it was accurate to the games. The games lore at that point was vague as frick. Sonic 3 was still under development, sonic 2 was being finished as the development of these shows was happening. (both were being developed in 1992 before sonic 2's final release, hell, AOSTH was more game accurate, but was basing the chaos emeralds off sonic 1, which had 6 and it was uncertain what they actually did) Then sonic CD was also coming out.. on a system most people didn't own. No Amy Rose, time stones, or Metal Sonic yet.
By the time these shows launched, Sonic had set proper lore up, the teams working on both shows only knew about tails. Scratch and grounder were based on pictures from sonic 2 badniks, but as for plot and what the chaos emeralds did, was a mystery. A comics line, some spin off games, and other shit had launched based off of sonic 1's release. Only the comics were able to really adapt to what was effectively a huge shit show, and no one knew how big Sonic 2 was going to be. Sonic 3 and knuckles changed sonic lore, but the cartoons were already made and finished by 1994. Leading to a generation of autistic people trying to recapture a 1 season cancelled series.
Then there was sonic underground which I hope they burn the originals.
im tired of pretending one was any better than the other, they were both good for different reasons
seconding
Shut the frick up you gen-Zers, oh look gen-Zombie discovered an old toon from the 90s that panders to their autistic immature Family Guy tier tastes. Frick off and go watch Felix the Cat if you enjoy randumb shit so much. Chunk Jones & Looney Tunes beat the crap out of most slapstick cartoons. Tom & Jerry actually had a budget and THICK character designs unlike those shitty noodle arms you zoomers jack yourself off half to death since Adventure Time.
>I preferred AoStH and I'm tired of pretending I SatAM was the better show.
AoStH was tired and busted when it came out. It was a poor man's Ren and Stimpy or Adventures of mighty mouse. It had that same retro 50s look and that same weird humor. At release it looked like a copy of a copy.
SatAM got a lot of good faith because it was a lore heavy animal cartoon using a major game franchise character in a Saturday morning lineup.
Now that the dust has settled, AoStH aged better given that there are only three or four cartoons in the past 30 years that do something similar. SatAM on the other hand never did anything with its lore and plot and a dozen shows have done what it does better. SEGA has also mostly purged everything serious from SatAM and the comics from the franchise.
In short, AoStH looked like a cash grab and wasn't unique at release, but has become unique over time.
They did Tails dirty in SATAM even as a kid it bug me the Robin to Sonic Batman was just turned into an little kid character that shows up here and there.
Tails was going to be more like his in-game counterpart in the pitched 3rd and 4th season of SatAM, and in the SatAM movie. All of which didn’t happen for various reasons including Ken Penders.
That movie at the very least was as good as green lighted but he sabotaged Ben Hurst’s pitch with his own shitty one
You mean Ken's pitch that Sonic is just some kid looking for a missing hoverboard while a war is raging around him?
the story that was reported was that Ken demanded sega pay him to make their movie and Sega got pissed off
Yes, that one. Pretty sure it was put together on fricking Powerpoint too. It tracks considering what we are seeing here, Jesus Christ. I wonder if this was not even a serious pitch and he only wanted to make a power move on Ben.
This was the biggest evidence that the SatAM show writers wanted to do their own thing, and Tails' existence was just an inconvenience to them. This fact is absolutely exhaustively made clear when at the very end, we were later informed the glowing red eyes are Naugus, and all the kids who theorized "HOLY SHIT! KNUCKLES IS HERE!" were completely off-base. That's not to say it couldn't be good, but game fans were left pretty high and dry by it all.
It's actually astounding how much one man can screw up for fans of a franchise.
>This was the biggest evidence that the SatAM show writers wanted to do their own thing, and Tails' existence was just an inconvenience to them. This fact is absolutely exhaustively made clear when at the very end, we were later informed the glowing red eyes are Naugus, and all the kids who theorized "HOLY SHIT! KNUCKLES IS HERE!" were completely off-base. That's not to say it couldn't be good, but game fans were left pretty high and dry by it all.
the way they left it is really the most damning thing for satam. Nothing they did towards the end fricking mattered.
I still remember the first episode though that they played on TGIF. Shit was lit. Show had so much promise and none of it amounted to anything.
Yeah the show really was it own thing, through and through with Sonic slapped in.
And I don’t know why that’s a bad thing nowadays. Just let it be its own thing. Yes back then it was confusing for kids but that was 30 years ago.
I mean people wanted what they saw in the games, not much to as for honestly, if you want do your own thing make an original show.
>This fact is absolutely exhaustively made clear when at the very end, we were later informed the glowing red eyes are Naugus, and all the kids who theorized "HOLY SHIT! KNUCKLES IS HERE!" were completely off-base.
I used to think the red eyes belonged to Metal Sonic.
I don’t know how I feel about Zoomers discovering AoStH and SatAM
Funnily enough, this was how I was introduced to Sonic two years ago, by my Ex. She introduced me to SatAm, and the Archie Sonic comics, then I got to play Sonic the Hedgehog 2 on Steam.
Why are you so miserable, please find happiness in life
Too bad Sonic cartoons are not like these anymore.
Why the FRICK did they make Tails caramel brown when in Sonic 2 he's golden yellow?
He was brown during development
Early production sprite, Sonic 2 was developed while the show was being made and SEGA probably wanted DiC to be ahead of the curve.
I am suspect of this because of the "see you next game" image that shows Tails as being his proper gold.
Well that’s the sprite sheet they found in a DiC model pack so it had to have come from somewhere. You have to remember, back in the early ‘90s you couldn’t send images via email, best most people could do was send a fax that would come out grainy, or physically post a studio copy of an image, which overseas would be hideously expensive and would take a week or two if all went well. We just didn’t have the same level of easy communication that we have today.
Makes me wonder how much of early Sonic 2 influenced the shows. AoStH had a time travel story arc, which was the original plot of Sonic 2. SatAM would later have a time travel story, too, but to a lesser extent. Was Knothole Village based on Wood Zone and Robotropolis based on Genocide City; who knows?
he look cooler brownish orange instead of bright ass yellow they have him now
>1987 : DuckTales
>1989 : Chip 'n Dale Rescue Rangers
>1990 : Tiny Toon Adventures, Talespin
>1991 : Ren & Stimpy, Rugrats, Doug, Darkwing Duck, Aeon Flux
>1992 : Batman the Animated Series, X-Men, Goof Troop
>1993 : Rocko's Modern Life, Animaniacs, 2 Stupid Dogs, Beavis & Butt-Head, AOSTH, SatAM
Imagine thinking either of the Sonic cartoons were good for the time.
I'm sorry on their behalf, king. Sonic fanbase has an influx of zoomers gen-alphas who are sucking Sonic's wiener especially Sonic games made in 2008+ which used to be trashed and review bombed. These zoomers just don't get the healthy belts on their ass and get their internet history reviewed like they should.
Forgot Mighty Mouse in 87
I mean against the best of the industry sure, but it’s like saying Robert Palmer isn’t a good singer because he’s not Michael Jackson or David Bowie. I know nerds and critics need stuff to be considered amazing or outstanding and that anything that’s below 7/10 is worthless trash, but sometimes people will just like something that’s considered competent because they like the settings or characters or aesthetics. I don’t think AoStH is amazing by any means but I can’t find another Dr Robotnik that’s as good as the one in that show, and that’s flat.
>Imagine thinking either of the Sonic cartoons were good for the time.
people always have rose tented glasses for the stuff they watched from the ages of 3 and 6. Me and you know neither sonic show was special at the time because we'd probably been watching cartoons since 81, and even had older cartoons on reruns.
Unfortunately there is is a whole band of sonic fans that sonic adventure 2 or 3 was their first sonic game and they grew up watching AOSTH rerurns. They have no idea that AOSTH was a retread of stuff already done by three or four other shows.
and why is that a problem?
>and why is that a problem?
its not a problem in itself. Its a problem when you combine it with the autism of your average sonic fan who talks in absolute terms. It makes their opinions sound ignorant. Because they probably are ignorant.
But its always going to be this way. I'm sure some kid right now is growing up on live action little mermaid and Aladdin and in 15 years they are going to make video docs on why those are teh two best movies ever made, completely ignoring everything made before their birth, and rightfully called a stupid butthole for doing so.
>accuses others of ignorance
>uses "autism" as a buzzword
...
others of ignorance
>>uses "autism" as a buzzword
>...
anon, people use words that mean a paragraph to avoid typing the paragraph. Its not a conspiracy against you or your buddies. Its how language works.
Every story you like has been done before.
We are talking about fricking Sonic here, at the extreme of pop entertainment. Your standards don't apply here and make you sound like a pretentious prick. Sonic succeeds if it is enjoyable and that's it.
>Every story you like has been done before.
>We are talking about fricking Sonic here, at the extreme of pop entertainment. Your standards don't apply here and make you sound like a pretentious prick. Sonic succeeds if it is enjoyable and that's it.
the fun thing is that younger sonic fans are just as pretentious as the old fans. Maybe more so. The few times I've met young sonic fans, half of them were little fricks.
I still remember being in a vintage game store and this 10 year old was being a know it all little frick to his 8 year old brother, repeating all this stupid shit he heard from you tube videos about the sonic games as they looked at some carts.
I just wanted to go push the kid over. He was being such a snotty little frick to his little brother. Like good lord kid, just let your brother play sonic 2 and mean bean machine if he wants to. Neither of you were alive for any of this shit. Just hush.
>grown ass moron on Cinemaphile wants to hit a kid because he is a poser about Sonic
ass moron on Cinemaphile wants to hit a kid because he is a poser about Sonic
dude, this kid was about to make his little bro cry over some crap he'd only heard on youtube.
Like kid, just let your bro have his little sonic games.
Kids will jerks about anything, that's something their parents should worry about.
God those lool hideous.
I don't know if we dodged a bullet or missed out by not getting that gigachad walrus
i kinda dig proto sally
>Isn't that wild? The same guy playing two different versions of the same guy?
How many Jokers has Hamill played?
It's a bit different for Hamill. Most of his tenure as Joker was done in the DCAU, so he's effectively reprising his role as the SAME Joker in those. Him playing the Joker in the Arkham games was literally a marketing hook, as he had become the most iconic voice of the character for two generations.
I wish he didn't, that old rasp wore out very quickly
That depends if you count that time that BTAS dramatically shifted art styles, and if you count Justice League separate, and how many of those movie specials exist in their own pocket universe, etc. etc. Lots of variables.
The fact that they didn't even spell the name right is hilarious.
I don't understand how they even landed on this concept art. At least one game already existed. Robotnik is discernibly NOT a green horned sorcerer. Hell, even the name implies they know he tinkers all day on robots like his little motobugs and buzz bombers. He's not walled up in some castle pouring over arcane tomes.
IIRC, Princess Sally and the concept of "evil man has taken over the world that a band of freedom fighters must stop" came from a pitch one of the showrunners had been trying to do since the early 80s. That's why she was a human in those concept drawings. I'm guessing horned devil Robotnik was the design of that original villain and they then tweeked it here
until we got the Still-Not-Game-Accurate Buttnik we know and love.
Honestly, Ixis Naugas is probably what became of that original design.
>I don't understand how they even landed on this concept art.
its because animators have always been buttholes that try to turn any animation for a pre existing brand or product into the project they really want to work on. Animators do NOT want to make shows for other people's art. New She ra isn't an exception, its the rule.
Go back and listen to anything John K writes about animation in the 80s. It wasn't just that the cartoons sold toys, it was the animators didn't have a say. They hate not having control over everything. They hate it.
If they had their way, everyone but the animators would be fired and the animators would just come in, make whatever cartoon they want, and you the viewer would just consume it happily and they would all get rich.
It's partially that and mostly because game companies didn't give a shit about providing actual character guides. Everyone laughs at how the Robot Masters look in Captain N, but that's because the only reference they had to go off of was their poorly xeroxed pictures in the manual and blurry poloroids of their sprites in the game.
It feels lile they should have made Tails or a cousin of Tails a smart sly hacker princess and get it over with instead of having to make an OC to starr as a main character alongside Sonic while Tails got the shaft harder than Antoine and Bunny Rabbit.
The original pitch was made before Sonic 2 came out.
Trying to find the full sheet for this one.
This is clearly an edit, broseph. Look at the color adjustment performed on the hands. Look at the obviously MS paint mustache.
Nicole is best girl. That is all.
Absolutely correct.
Even in SatAM, Nicole had a fair amount of character development while being a lovable and sassy PDA who damn near carried the team at times.
Didn't Sonic shake Nicole so hard that she permanently malfunctioned and talked just like him for the rest of the show?
Rest of? I don't think so
IIRC she just adopted some of his lingo and relaxed a bit while stuck with him for a while when Sally was doing Sally things being captured or whatever
Possibly because of threats of shaking
No. He did shake her, but they bonded over the course of their adventure together.
That was one episode, Sonic just became dumb as shit in the second season.
He said "Um, English, please!" like 7 fricking times, too. To the point where even the stoic and logical computer was getting fed up with his shit for a minute there.
>"The... stuff, if all over... and it's... messing me up."
Poor girl had to try so hard to dumb it down to where even the fastest moron alive could comprehend.
Hide your boner
Only after she became coombait. Nobody really cared back when she was just a fancy GBA with Deus Ex Machina power.
Posting best boys
You know what? I appreciate that one bit of consistency. "Jaleel is Sonic" put a firm picture of the character in our minds, even if the whole world around him changed. And that's just swell.
Mondo problemo!
I found it really distracting how Sonic was the only person in the world who talked like that, especially in Satam (where he seemed to do it even more than Aosth) because where the frick would he even learn that lingo from? He lives in a medieval village of furries.
These are things you are definitely not supposed to consider. Why did the Ninja Turtles talk like surfer dudes and giga nerds when all they were raised by was Splinter? The answer is "don't think about it."
They learnt it from the telly
they all lived in a modern city as kids before Robotnik took over
Sally looks like she should be in Captain N here.
Not bad, but the final Sally is so obviously the best one.
I prefer cat girl
More canon Sal for me.
Then Sally became a sexy cat lady.
Is she a cat here? If her name was still Sally Acorn shed have to be a chipmunk right? she still has chipmunk buckteeth in other promo images so i have to assume that to be the case
They just had the name; I assume "Acorn" was there just to tie the Freedom Fighters into them defending nature. Like, even Amy was called "Princess Sally" in the American manual for Sonic CD. Who ever "main girl" was got the name.
>Sonic has six speeds
Damn, the Sonic the Hedgehog mini-series really was the pitch for the original version of the show.
Shocked I haven't seen more shitposts with "Trans-Sonic"
This six-speeds stuff was only ever in the mini-series from before either the cartoons or the real Archie Sonic run began. It is funny to realize that the reason Sally was blonde in it was the last tie to her evolution from this
to this
to the Sally we're used to seeing.
>Number 6
>hasta la vista, meestah
Bollers took that one to heart.
I never thought that, but you're right.
THREE SEPARATE TRAPS?
AND NONE OF THEM WORKED?
AOSTH is really the only Sonic cartoon anyone still cares about. And even that's mostly for the memes. They are really good memes, though.
Long John Baldry was chewing up the scenery even before people started splicing it into Youtube poops. The show was such a gas.
I literally cannot imagine this show without him voicing robotnik.
It was really good voice acting
Check em
Quints of truth.
I did it!
I won!
The Archie Comics kind of burnt out all the good will SatAM garnered. The fans of the show picked up the comic as if it were upholding it's "legacy".
It pisses me off every time I talk about wanting Sally in modern games some moron comes out to say "muh sally suck!!!" because they always assume I'm talking about the comics.
Sally's entire career comes from the comics.
It's revisionism to pretend that Archie wasn't extremely well liked by the end
He's right though. The dark ages of the comic still to this day impact the good will towards the comic when you say "Archie." Because people are negative and focus on the bad. You'll get people posting "the slap" or anything from Penders' run and trying to project that as the entirety of the comic. Ian did excellent damage control but there was definite damage to undo.
>The dark ages of the comic still to this day impact the good will towards the comic when you say "Archie."
I would argue its just zoomers being zoomers. They don't watch old cartoons, play old games or read comics. They watch a 20 minute on youtube and then come here and make a thread acting like they know something. And there are a lot of videos on youtube shit talking the comics becuase penders was an astounding furry nut. Go watch one of the doc's on him. Its amazing.
But penders isn't the comic. There is a lot of other good stuff there. The first 20 issues are fun light hearted romps. The metal cd issue is fun. The mecha madness issue is one of the best video game comics of 1996. Its just a joy to look at
Zoomers would have been playing the 3D Sonic games, which coincided with the pre-Flynn, post-Endgame era. They would have picked up the Sonic comic thinking that they were going to see Sonic doing cool shit with Shadow and the characters from Adventure and Heroes, only to see THIS.
>Zoomers would have been playing the 3D Sonic games, which coincided with the pre-Flynn, post-Endgame era. They would have picked up the Sonic comic thinking that they were going to see Sonic doing cool shit with Shadow and the characters from Adventure and Heroes, only to see THIS.
I opted out of sonic as a story between sonic adventure 1 and 2. The narrative of adventure was so bad I was done. Penders 100 OCDONUTSTEEL echendans didn't do it. Sega's own bad writing did it.
I think I had issues 1 through 65.
Poor Armand. Dude was a real one.
It's weird that Adventure era is considered to be for "zoomers". It came out in 99. By that logic Silent Hill and GTA2 are also a zoomer games. The original Smash and Gen 2 pokemon are zoomer games.
>It's weird that Adventure era is considered to be for "zoomers".
zoomers are the only ones that love adventure and the titles afterword in their entirety. 8 and 16 bit fans mostly suffer through the plot the and dialog of those post adventure 1 games to play the pretty levels.
That's because people take "zoomer" to mean "someone who is currently 10-15 years old". The majority of Gen Z are, in fact "The annoying 12 Year Old on Xbox Live"; meaning most of them are in their 20s now.
Blame Sega for this. If they didn’t want such a disconnect, they shouldn’t have been b***hy about providing source material to the comic team. And when I mean b***hy, I mean providing Jack shit until like what, Sonic adventure 2?
Sega really is an incredibly petty company who makes the most bafflingly shitty decisions possible. I mean, it's not surprising, considering they're a glorified yakuza front, but still.
No idea about them being involved with the Yakuza but let’s be real. Sega would’ve gone bankrupt and died long ago if it weren’t for the Sammy half.
>Sega really is an incredibly petty company who makes the most bafflingly shitty decisions possible
petty or just stupid?
Remember how sega and archie lost tons of characters to penders because neither of them had a back up of his contracts?
Remember how robotnik was dead for years in the sonic comic because no one at Sega was reading any of the archie comics?
bad communication went both ways. Archie never sent sega copies of the comics before or after going to the presses and sega never sent them much source material. We're lucky there is a sonic cd issue.
They DID have a back up. The judge just refused to accept the backup; Penders got extremely lucky because almost any other judge would have thrown out the case
I remember those comics the most because that's around the time right before they stopped selling comics at places like convenience stores and drug marts, which is when I initially stopped reading comics until I went digital much later. Fugitive Sonic and Titan Tails were right there waiting for me on the Walgreens magazine rack.
The Archie Sonic Comics are literally where lambasting SatAM as "Overly Serious Furry-Drama that's Nothing Like the Games" came from.
Flynn may have turned it around starting in issue 160, but that's 130 issues of the stuff that made Archie Sonic infamous. The shit years of Archie Comic gave a bad impression to the Freedom Fighters and Mobius because, until the complete series collection in 2007, that was basically the only way most people could get a taste of that setting.
>How to spot someone who gets their opinions from YouTubers and twitter zoomers: the post
The only people who don't believe that Archie Sonic was considered trash are Atchie Sonic fans themselves.
>The only people who don't believe that Archie Sonic was considered trash are Atchie Sonic fans themselves.
yes, but it was the kind of trash. Wasn't like the longest running comic launched in the 90s?
Aren't you forgetting something b***h?
Tamers12345 is the only reason anyone ever thinks of that show. Which is kind of based, actually.
I honestly think about Sonia's Urkle voice a lot.
Well you're in luck my friend
It was all I could think of watching the trailer! How awkward it is.
The dub where I live actually had seperate voice actors for the three hedgehogs and the fact that they were voiced by a single dorky black guy in English is just the wildest shit to me.
It’s just as weird over here, man
I don't know what the frick happened that created a bunch of shitposters who live to whine that other people like the Archie comics, but I'm not humoring this crap. I like these comics, and I'm not apologizing for it.
There's different factions at play: the Classicucks, who hate any form of narrative at all and resent Archie for not being "muh pure nipponese canon," and the IDW Zoomers. IDW created a jumping on point for people who hadn't read Archie and only heard stories about Penders, so they shittalk Archie to hype up the only comic they've read
There's also the faction that prefers the lore/story/setting of the games that all this stuff spawned from and doesn't understand the sheer vitriol that fans of the comics (most often Archie) seem to have for "Adventuregays".
This is not a thing. The only people who shit on Adventuregays are Classicucks
But I like the classic games and the adventure games. It's the same setting. Sonic Adventure is just the continuation of the plot from 2 and 3.
>doesn't understand the sheer vitriol that fans of the comics (most often Archie) seem to have for "Adventuregays"
the lore parts of Adventure are the worst parts of the games. Up until that point, other than sonic spinball and sonic 3d blast (two games most sonic fans skipped) sonic had been a solid fun time. Hours and hours of fun. Get out sonic 1, 2, 3, S&K and even sonic cd and you were going to get hours and hours of endless fun.
Then adventure came out, and that was over. You had the adrenaline rush of that first beach level with the whale and then you beat that level and you get to the story...and its just not good. Its really bad.
There is a 7 year gab between sonic 1 and sonic adventure. Someone that was 7 when 1 came out would be like 14 when sonic adventure came out. They might have a summer job. They might have purchased a dreamcast and sonic adventure with their own money. Then they are hit in the face with that horrible story. They dropped $60 of their own money on that crap.
Now, if you were 7 for sonic adventure and your parents paid for it and you spend the rest of your time watching sesame street and catdog and wild thornberries, it probably seemed fine.
It's really hard for someone that started with 1 to explain to someone who started with adventure how big of a drop in quality the story of adventure is.
>There is a 7 year gab between sonic 1 and sonic adventure. Someone that was 7 when 1 came out would be like 14 when sonic adventure came out. They might have a summer job. They might have purchased a dreamcast and sonic adventure with their own money. Then they are hit in the face with that horrible story. They dropped $60 of their own money on that crap.
Or they were like me and bought it with money they'd saved up for months in advance, played the entire thing in one sitting because while they had enough for the console and game they didn't have enough for a VMU, and still enjoyed it because it was anime as frick and they were just starting to become a weeb.
Your entire premise is predicated on the idea that everyone that likes the classic games hates the adventure games and vice versa and that's just not realistic.
>Your entire premise is predicated on the idea that everyone that likes the classic games hates the adventure games and vice versa and that's just not realistic.
no, I went to public school. I'm aware that some kids my own age had no taste or were just stupid.
By that logic wouldn't Gen X and Millenial people that spent their own hard earned money on the games be more likely to forgive its flaws due to sunk cost fallacy? Like, they'd try and look for silver linings because otherwise they wasted their money, but zoomers are more likely to hate it because it cost them nothing?
>By that logic wouldn't Gen X and Millenial people that spent their own hard earned money on the games be more likely to forgive its flaws due to sunk cost fallacy?
They have spent more money on the older games than one new game. Why would sunk cost falacy favor the one game they spent the least on?
Also, you're aware of star trek fans and star wars fans right? When has sunk cost fallacy ever protected the newer media over the old?
SatAM gets overrated because for a lot of people it was their furry awakening and they simp for Sally and to a lesser extent Bunnie.
Same reason why there's a Rescue Rangers fandom and why said fandom got so bent out of shape when Gadget got flyed.
The movie was shit for a LOT of reasons.
>Same reason why there's a Rescue Rangers fandom and why said fandom got so bent out of shape when Gadget got flyed.
I mean, the fly thing is pretty stupid as a narrative choice. It would be like if Pluto and Goofy were a gay couple in Who Framed Roger Rabit, or if Peg appeared in RRs, and was in an open relationship with Goofy's cat from goof troop. Zipper was like a child or a pet. He was everyone's little buddy. Gadget ending up with him and having mutant fly mouse babies was just mean spirited.
I'd say that for Rescue Rangers a lot of the hate is that Disney has all these properties, doesn't use them, lobbied congress to extend copyright for decades so they can own things basically forever, keeps shutting down animation projects, made it financially impossible to do licensed comics, etc. So when they finally make a movie out of one of their old TV shows and it's basically "lol, can you believe this was a show?" that's going to rub people the wrong way even more than just a regular shitty adaptation.
>people got mad when Gadget got flyed.
This is an understandable reaction to a shit movie with horrendously mean-spirited plot points. I am 100% certain you would be the same way if it happened to a character you liked, regardless of gender.
>Two versions
Ahem
>airing at the same time
Reading comprehension is key. Underground came after SatAM and Adventures ended. Them making two vastly different cartoons with the same character voiced by the same guy, broadcast AT THE SAME TIME is weird.
Them bringing the actor back for a third show is not.
Sonic Underground came way after the first two, around the time Adventure released.
Still the 90's.
Not the point, moron. OP is specifically a reference to how it was a weird thing to have two simultaneous Sonic shows that were strikingly different in tone, with the same VA.
"Ahem, why didn't you mention Sonic Underground?"
Because that came out later and isn't germane to the point.
What the FRICK were they thinking having Jaleel voice all three of the siblings?
Two less paychecks to cut.
Money.
In hindsight, it’s a cringe result but not unbearable. I applaud Jameel for trying I guess, lmao
GOD could you autistic homosexuals just shut the frick up with this shit flinging screechfest and talk about what you LIKE?
I try but it gets lost among the autism
To be fair, this is Cinemaphile. You can actually get banned for that.
This isn’t Cinemaphile
Eh, you still get yelled at for daring to be positive about something. Therefore there is no point.
But, for the sake of argument, I personally find merit in nearly all iterations of the franchise, and so I see the tribalism as the fricking stupid nonsense it is.
Every Sonic thread, be it abut the cartoons, comics, or video games (both 2D and 3D), will inevitably draw in autists from the other camps and shriek "MY VERSION OF SONIC IS BETTER THAN YOUR VERSION OF SONIC" thinking that will show Daddy Sega that they are the one true Sonic fans and should be pandered to.
To be honest its why I kind of like AoStH threads because it’s so far removed from the game that people (mostly) don’t play that card, mostly.
Satam is overhated here. If they made a Sonic show with more lore and continuity than Sonic Prime today and animated with cg, it would do well.
I think it's just the same few gays who come to every thread about SatAM to complain about it
Sonic Prime has good elements but it is horribly wasted.
I was actually excited about this show when it was announced. A Sonic show. Oh? A Sonic show involving alternate realities? OH!
And it became a wet fart with the “multiverse” just being very basic reskins of the main universe. I mean hey, at least we got Robotropolis (New Yolk City) back I guess…
Sonic Prime feels like a show made by people who only had second-hand information about Sonic from a wiki or something.
As a kid this shit would confuse the frick out of me. It’s before my time but I owned the dvd box sets of both shows. I was a huge sonic fan owning every sonic game on GameCube (great system for sonic games) and I was so annoying always getting in trouble in school for drawing my Sonic OC’s on my homework and shit. When I got my Wii I completely fell off sonic
I like to think that there's 2 different timelines for this version of Sonic.
Later on they a did weird attempt to merge them though, making Sally show up in the AoSTH Christmas special (though she doesn't speak a word because Kath wasn't around I guess.)
I’ll have to find the source but I believe they actually recorded a few lines but they got scraped in the end for some reason.
>I like to think that there's 2 different timelines for this version of Sonic.
wweeewwoooweee woo, the sonic multiverse
See half of these arguments would be solved if people just accepted nowadays that they are just alternate continuities. I mean sure back then it was a problem since y’all were kids watching it for the first time so it would be confusing but it’s not on TV anymore so who cares? This goes for the comics too and Sonic X, the Sonic OVA, etc.
Just accept that there are alternate continuities and let people enjoy them or don’t force people to like a certain timeline. Still not happy? Write a fanfic or make a webcomic or something, turn your frustration into something useful.
I'll still never understand why Tails was a stupid kid in Satam when he was flying a plane in Sonic 2. Saying this as a Satam fan.
SatAM team was not give any source material so that show is an entirely different universe.
Didn't he fly in the pilot and then for the entirety of season 1 didn't do shit? They only made him able to fly again in season 2
Is he really stupid or just naive and precocious? Game Tails is a tech genius but also fairly childlike still.
In the SatAm cartoon he's literally a small child. And not the prodigy type, the burdensome kind
Doesn't help that Sega of America's localizations of Sonic 2 erased all mention of Tails being a mechanical genius and so DiC created Rotor for the role without realizing it.
It's funny how this just became a Sonic thread and not about where the quote is from.
The meta joke being Michael Cera plays multiple Scotts, and also was the live action version.
This was not from the comic?
I think in the comic the ice breaker line is about Pac-man being Puck-man originally. Originally I thought the line was just a pandering change because because Sonic is more relevant now, but reading it again I think it’s more clever.
Sonic Underground is obviously the superior show, which is why it still continues over 2 decades later
This is what brain rot looks like.
>This is what brain rot looks like.
why does sonic and pony stuff attract such weird people?
I don't see why the TV shows should be held to a modern scrutiny when they were created when there was only 1 Sonic game that was released publicly released at the time. If you're expecting an adaptation of the later games, you're an idiot and apparently you're brain has difficulties perceiving how time works.
ie, a Zoomer
Honestly, it's less about "modern scrutiny" and more the continuation of the same old ass online arguments about AoStH vs. SatAM. For a lot of old fans back in the 2000s, SatAM "legitimized" Sonic as being more than a mascot, which is why they ragged on AoStH so much. But Sonic fans being insufferable (and the raise of YTP if we're being honest) made younger fans dismiss SatAM, and by extention, Archie Sonic. And this isn't something that JUST happened in the last few years. This was happening in the 2000s. Hell; one of Nostalgia Critic's early videos is shitting on AoStH for being silly and not serious.
I never understood why writers overcomplicated Sonic besides the original 3 games, everything else like really overwritten plot wise like you think a Sonic cartoon back then would just be Sonic lives in Green Hills and has to stop Robonik but they add all this extra fluff even simple show like AOSTH still like makes it more of a mess with how the world set up than it needs to be like that problem with lot of Sonic stuff is the world he tends to live in always feels vague like just have be earth with humans and talking animals and that's it I don't get this whole making it another planet or like he goes to another universe or whatever, shit.
I saw SATAM first, rented VHS as a kid at Blockbuster and later bought the DVD (which I kept since the new DVD transfer sucks and goes for a lot online). I don't think I've seen a full ep of ASTH and just saw people Youtube rudely dismiss it but I fell for it being bad as a kid even though it's fine comedy show and I did see Sonic Underground a bit on TV but I could never watch an whole ep because of the music and animation kek.
I wish I kept*
What if there were two separate Mario cartoons in the early 90s with one being dark and dramatic, and the other was a hilarious comedy about pasta?
Nintendo being like Sega and just frick it do what you want would be wild.
That’s basically the DiC cartoons vs the movie
The difference is Mario still feels the same in everything even in weird ass live action movie, Mario still FEELS like Mario, like they way him and Luigi are hasn't ever really changed like Sonic characters. Mario in movies,games,comics,etc still basically the same guy.
I'd say that's debatable, Mario in the games isn't some gruff Brooklynite. To be fair Sonic is more or less Sonic in everything he's in too other than Underground maybe, at least in the sense that he's a speedy hero dude with a bit of attitude.
Mario personality basically the same, the generic fun hero guy and he not really that gruff besides his look in the other media, just Brooklynite.
The Link thing right but like Mario really hasn't changed much besides the voice and Peach thing well depends on the game lol.
>le Dobson boogeyman
Koopa really only homie in that show that didn't look like how he did in games also he was Bowser even at the time in the US games.
Yeah, and what if fans of the Mario games what scream at fans of the Mario cartoons and comics that their version of Mario is illegitimate.
Then why are there no Cinemaphile Mario threads compared to the daily Archie/IDW autismo?
There's less than a third of as many Mario cartoons, and the comics that ran in Nintendo Power don't even scratch the surface of the multi decade span of Sonic comics, that's why.
Also they aren't that different from the games, the biggest difference maybe is Peach has a dad, Mario cartoons and comics are rooted in the games using the music and all the cast and shit, there's not many OCs.
Imagine if Sonic got an actual cartoon and comic in the 90's rooted in the games like the Mario stuff, Mario stuff might be closest to the games (not counting live action movie kek).
You don't need to dig deep enough in the US Mario well to find crap like the Sonic threads on Cinemaphile
Figures it'd be like this when real Mario autismo is in the RPGs and the Mandate deniers/believers.
US Mario minor changes, basically the same shit.
US Sonic completely different thing
Thought I do stand by US Sonic design and JP Sonic design is the same damn design just drawn a bit different.
Some autism about it being COMPLETELY DIFFERENT like no it's like when same Batman design drawn by different guy, DUH it's gonna look a bit different.
Make one gay
That's what I was getting at with Sonic but I see your point regarding Mario. I think the thing is Mario *is* deliberately bland in the games (and that's not a knock, just an observation) whereas Sonic has been given a personality that somewhat shifts a bit between translations and writers. Though I'd argue largely remains the same at it's core; hero, cares about others, kind of snarky/smarmy.
The Zelda show was the Satam to Mario’s AOSTH.
It’s still cool to see how Sonic got two shows at once. It was still like two completely different staffs doing the shows, right? Sonic and Tails look and act similar in both shows at least. I wonder if the two staffs helped each other out with production stuff.
It's actually an interesting story. There were originally plans to make only one Sonic cartoon(Sonic SatAM) and would've been based on Sonic 1. However, ABC rejected it because DiC wanted to air it in syndication and DiC was basically told "the only way you're getting that is if you make another one". So, DiC was like "challenge accepted" and would produce a second episodic Sonic cartoon(AoStH). The show was intended to be a prequel to SatAM, but ABC didn't want their Sonic show to be tied to the syndicated one. So, they agreed to greenlight SatAM on the condition that they differentiate more from the other. Which is why SaTAM is so different from, yet similar to, AoStH.
Are you misunderstanding something? I don't think a single one of those posts was praising Ken Penders.
90's Sonic media > modern sonic media.
>airing at the same time
They were also produced at the same time by the same company.
>Gritty Mario early 90s Mario cartoon
>Tony Jay as King Koopa
Meanwhile Boom and X are forgotten kek
Meant Boom and Prime.
Though maybe you can add X too
I don't think about Prime at all
Nah, X is still quite remembered. Even more so than Boom.
Which honestly, I am sad. Boom is quite a gem of a show. It’s Sonic but a sitcom that’s actually funny.
To be fair "Gotta Go Fast" is essentially a catchphrase now.
>X is animated by one of the best anime studios.
>Looks like shit.
Hatred of Archie and Satam can literally be boiled down to a few extremely autistic neets that seethe about Sonic and Sally being together.
They don't care about the writing or tone or "faithfulness to the games". It's literally just autistic rage that it doesn't feature their preferred ship.
This. They can’t accept the reality that alternate continuities can exist and it’s okay to like stuff outside of the main timeline
The Ride chads live in their heads rent free
I'd honestly say it was the other way around. Archie/SatAM autists screamed for years about how all it would take to save the series would incorporate the Freedom Fighters into the games and shat on anyone who liked AoStH for not being serious enough or the game's lore because it ignored Archie/SatAM.
Now that Sonic is in a better place as a franchise than it was in the 2000s, everyone is clowning on them for acting like they were the only way to turn things around.
>Now that Sonic is in a better place as a franchise than it was in the 2000s
LMAO
Give me one example of someone saying that the only thing that could save sonic was the Freedom Fighters. All I have heard was people wanting them to be added to the games, or have a one game featuring them as an alt continuity thing.
>Now that Sonic is in a better place as a franchise than it was in the 2000s
The franchise only just got into a better within the last two years. This was after many years of disappointment and conflict from the community. People clown on people who like stuff like SatAm and Archie because it doesn’t align with the current thing. What are you on about?
Wait lemme rephrase that. Things are better now than what they had been in the previous decade. We are definitely not in a better place than than the early 2000’s LOL. Not yet anyway. Assuming Ian doesn’t go full moron and games get sufficient dev time and money, we may enter an interesting new age.
I assume he's not referring to the beginning of the 2000s, but the series' absolute fricking low point with Sonic 06 and everything after that. If you don't think the franchise flopped on its face hard then, you're an absolute idiot.
I didn’t say that, I’m saying that we are definitely not in a better place than during Pre-06 and Pre Shadow 05.
>give me one example
How far back does Sonic Cult and SSN's forums go?
Ah, in that case, I have no place to make comment on that, as I have only been in the Sonic fandom for the past 2 years.
>Now that Sonic is in a better place as a franchise than it was in the 2000s
The Sonic Dark Age never ended.
Most people who say the want the FFs in really mean they want Sally in. That being said, even the 2 media they did show up barely used them at all.]
>7 years later and morons are still going "SoJ seething"
It was meant as a one-time thing only and even then only the it got made when Izuka vouched for them
Unironically please explain the rationality behind people like you loving to hoard grudges over the few moronic common internet spergs from old forums and communities.
Legit tell me how you're not just outing yourself as a pathetic huge vulnerable homosexual. I bet you cry everyday for each insult you get off fricking internet.
Explaining ancient dumb internet arguments isn't "holding a grudge". This ridiculous in-fighting has been going on since before even Cinemaphile was created. That would be like thinking that someone is holding a grudge when discussing that Cinemaphile only attacked ebaumsworld because this site was a spin-off of SomethingAwful.
>a few
Lmao, you fricking wish.
It's true, don't make me post the schizo spam posts on Cinemaphile and Cinemaphile
Are you gonna try and convince me one shitposter is responsible for all the criticism and hate Archie and SatAM get in the fandom?
not one, but not a legion either
So you're saying any heat Archie/SatAM gets stems from the same entities everywhere and everytime?
In this site, yes.
Archives are proof
This site hatred of Archie/SatAM is borne from it being seen as a furry comic and we traditionally HATE furgays. AoStH got a pass because it's more like Looney Tunes and not the genesis of tons of furry art on DeviantArt.
Explain the ride homosexual
Containment threads.
You wish
The ride is literally only a couple of years old and originally started on Cinemaphile. Archie Sonic was always mocked on here before the ride, which led to people becoming endeared to it. Like how the Were-Eds comic was originally storytimed as a joke, but then became an annual thing people look forward to.
Proof
Why are you so angry. Please find happiness in life
You'd be surprised at much one guy can tank the reputation of something in the eyes of people.
Yes, unironically and technically, Ken Penders.
Why are zoomers so bitter lol?
It's not my fault superstars was a flop.
You could leave this franchise after 06, Forces maximum but you didn't.
Schizos be addicted to eating shit for years.
I stopped giving a shit after Mania tbh.
I pirated Forces but it was just so fricking boring that I gave up halfway through.
Haven't even opened up Frontiers even though I have it on Steam.
These days I mostly just play SRB2.
I'm just mad they never did more episodes with the Mean Bean Machine robots, I mean Scratch and Grounder are great but they could have done some TMNT style antics with a henchman of the week/day whatever.
They're just so goofy but cool, like the Robot Masters
If I'm being honest, none of the designs are as strong as Scratch, Grounder and Coconuts anyways. I like that some feel vaguely "Tezuka-esque" but I think I like true badniks better.
Man, don't disrespect my homie Sir Ffuzzy-Logik like that.
Those are the only three based on game designs aren't they?
Pretty sure, yeah. Coconuts is very obviously the same monkey from Emerald Hill, Grounder is the digging bot from Aquatic Ruin, and Scratch is based off the chicken gunners in Wing Fortress. The rest are just assorted mechanical bots.
INB4 Katella spam.
Tired of seeing that b***h.
We're at 302 posts my guy.
>archie, fleetway, underground, good sonic games, french comic, manga, aosth, satam, underground, ova, man of the year
Vs
>adventure, x, another manga, 06, shadow
Vs
>boom, meta era, mania
Vs
>prime, superstars, frontiers, movies, idw
90's mogs hard
>AoStH and SatAM Sonic switch places
What happens?
Swap, what do you mean swap, like AoStH Sonic and SatAM Sonic swap places? Like the show gets given to the other team?
S6 squad has to defend their robopolis city from furry raiders
https://nitter.cz/MimiiPyon/status/1725568332223381971
Sonic's ancestor, Cindy Bear
I would commit a Fry if I was Sonic.
It's what, 4000 years or so difference?
I mean, you're still causing temporal problems by putting your seed in your ancestor (if she gets pregnant). The number of years difference really only impacts how incestuous it is, not the paradox you're creating.
Just being there has caused issues what's one more going to do?
Honestly there's still a lot we don't really know about the development that anything could have been the case. It doesn't help that you had two games being made by different teams in Japan (Sonic CD) and America (Sonic 2) at the time.
>Just being there has caused issues what's one more going to do?
I don't require much enabling to go for this, but even so...
You’re not Sonic though.
Too bad, because that makes it hotter.
I think you should be glad not to be Sonic.
I'd call it even if I had access to a hedgehog babe, but alas. I do not.
>fricking up the timeline because of your oedipus issues
Ezra Miller Flash pls go
AOSTH was never good
its fine but it was never my favorite. I was always looking for SatAM on TV and would always change the channel if AoStH was on. I understood that there were different Sonic shows but didn't know why.
It was the same with the Mario Super Show and the Super Mario Bros. 3 cartoon; the one that used the game powerups and stuff was better.
Super Show had Captain Lou. That makes it better.
to add, AoStH is one of those shows where a little kid might like it then grow out of it, and an adult who's very interested in old-school animation might come back to it.
Both shows would probably be remembered if they weren't Sonic though, although of the two AoStH would be the one only known by animation heads. SatAM would probably be significantly more popular, actually, since it wouldn't have the kind of fandom shitflinging attached to it and would just be a show about furry terrorists
No, your taste, both in childhood and adulthood, was just shit. AoSTH’s beauty is lost on you.
Nope, it's shit just like the meta era
see and this is the typical modern AoStH "fan." It's used solely as something to hide behind to fling shit at SatAM. AoStH is boring as shit and not funny.
AOSTH got more reruns, i.e. Toon Disney, plus all the YTPs, so it's more liked by Adventure-era fans. SATAM was something the 3D fans would hear mentioned about on forums by older fans, but was largely a mystery to them.
Unironic AOSTH fans don't exist.
It just memes.
As a comedy show Boom is much better.
…And other blatant lies you can tell yourself and your friends!
This, but with SatAM and Underground.
It's definitely overrated
you could just say you have a small dick without the dramatics.
Ah, I was wondering when the contrarian would arrive
Archie mogs both
I just think their neat
>they're
Did our ride threads trigger you gay so much kek
What a baby.
When was the last ride anyway?, and how long did they take to complete it? I'm new to this ''ride" Storytiming thing and its seems very comfy
like 2 years ago.
To be honest i was disappointed when i first saw that Sonic cartoon... it wasn't like the games. Explain to an 8 years kid that was expecting the adaption of the game that it wasn't to be.
I still prefer that jap adaptation that was much closer to the games.
The one where Sonic was a nerd with a superhero "Sonic" persona or the OVA where Eggman was a pedophile?
That one with Metal Sonic and Knuckles. Where Robotnik looked like the Robotnik from the game (minus wanting to marry/rape that catgirl)
The OVA was just AoStH's same brand of wacky nonsense, except with more Japanese jokes.
sarah was of age
If you want some soulless game accurate adaptation just watch x, prime or read idw
when is he coming back bros?
Never. In particular because Sonic Forces was SEGA actually attempting to see if appealing American Sonic Fans's nostalgia for the Freedom Fighters and OCs would be a windfall for the series. And it wasn't.
It would have been popular if it wasn't for the shit gameplay and moronic story.
like, they phoned it in super fricking hard
I don't think you're right, because the whole game felt atonal as frick.
that was the part of Forces people liked though? But Sega is moronic
A better game came out that year too. It was called Sonic Mania made by not-so-autistic fans. (I knew the team back in the old rom hacking scene in the early 2000s, and knew Mr. Hesse too. God speed you brilliant frickers.)
And Sonic Team was INCREDIBLY bitter about it. That was when they went into hyper-drive about Classic and Modern Sonic being entirely separate characters and not wanting anything to be done with Classic Sonic for a while. They even wrote the Phantom Ruby to only create "illusions" instead of it having space/time powers so they could say that Mania wasn't real and didn't happen.
>sonic mania is the best sonic game to come out several years
>doesn't get a sequel
>devs get screwed over and given the task of rereleasing the genesis games again
>in typical sega fashion they're rushed and the game's a mess at launch
>sega decides to do their own 2d sonic game
>weak sales and it's already forgotten
>sega recently said they want sonic to be as popular and successful as mario
But that’s not fair because it wasn’t even a good-spirited attempt of making SatAM: The Game.
They hired Happy Tree Friends writers who don’t get Jack shit about Sonic who can’t write anything outside of furries dying in a purgatory over and over again.
Not saying that to shit on HTH though, that stuff is good. But seriously? That’s the best that Sega could hide?
I almost wonder if they did that on purpose so they could say “uhhh SEE! Everyone hates this old, American crap! We will never do it again lol!”
HTF* as in happy tree friends
hire* ffs
I'm pretty sure it wasn't.
>Eggman rules the entire world
>It's up to Sonic and a rag-tag band of resistance fighters to go on missions to destabilize his Empire
>Humans don't really exist; only furries
>There are attempts of seriousness, like them thinking Sonic is dead, Tails dealing with the PTSD of that notion, the OC overcoming being called worthless by the new villain
>New Villain is a new random furry that Eggman has tricked into working for him
I can see how people can see it.
They'd have to rewrite him from the ground up because the writing in forces was complete shit.
but they're lazy as frick, so that ain't happenin'
Infinite is better as seething and insecure, otherwise, he's just edgy Fang.
He was barely even that in Forces
Yeah his backstory in the Shadow DLC is a total retcon that barely meshes with the main game.
In the actual story he could have just as easily been a random AI Eggman created like Sage, with the job of controlling the Chaos Ruby. I mean he literally doesn't have a real body. So the Shadow DLC origin is missing some info.
It’s funny that you mention that, anon, I suspect that Infinite may have been written as a robot earlier on. Which is why some of his lines sound like a computer talking and one of the reasons he has that voice modulator.
It would make sense. Maybe started out as a Robot created by Eggman but ended up being an edgy, insecure jackal because… reasons?
Don't we see him floating in a tube at the start of the game?
Also the Shadow DLC at least gives "something" with story potential to the total nothing that is his character otherwise
>Don't we see him floating in a tube at the start of the game?
Doesn't really tell us anything. His body just disappears after his last boss fight in Forces as if he himself was an illusion created by the Phantom Ruby.
I think it was confirmed that his imitation phantom ruby got absorbed by the Phantom Ruby, with him getting dragged along for the ride
Haha he gets sucked up the Phantom Ruby’s ass
Archie will be more fondly remembered than IDW.
Same with fleetway.
That’s because IDW has no flavor. Yes, Archie has crappy moments but half of those moments are superb shitpost material. And then for the really crappy moments that we can’t cope around by using memes, they are balanced by better written, sweet, and fantastic moments.
It’s a roller coaster that makes you go “what the frick am I reading” but you are still compelled to read on anyway.
What about IDW? It has none of that. Sure, it has some good arcs but other than Scrapnik Island and the Metal Virus Arc, it’s a flat plane. It’s not that memorable.
And memorable stories like the Metal Virus arc are pretty much swept under the rug in terms of the gravity of the situation, because all of the sudden Eggman is no longer Archie eggman and Sonic is like, “Darn! Eggman nearly caused the extinction of all life on the planet! I will do absolutely nothing to bring him to justice, much less kill him, because I am a goody two-shoes!”
Like ?????
Ian wants to bring back Archie through IDW so badly but his attempts make things weird. Especially since IDW is apparently canon now. Our main storyline Eggy is now a deranged Archie Eggman. Sonic really is a dick now that he continues to do nothing to put an end to this now monster.
Anyways, the point is, IDW will not be remembered as much as Archie was. As its highest points didn’t even belong in that comic, they were really Archie stories all along.
IDW is nothing but an interlude to the games and struggles having it's own identity or even properly emulating the games' identity. Why care about IDW when you can just play the games that has less constraints?
Now that I am thinking, why doesn’t Sonic kill Eggman or soemthing in Frontiers?
See, turning Eggman into Archie Eggman in IDW was a dumb idea and Ian probably knows it by now.
Sega really needs to stop trying to stitch everything they like together because it’s not working. Ian needs to stop turning IDW into Archie because that’s not working. He should also release the unreleased stuff from Archie that he has been holding back from fans. It’s over. Unless Sega magically wakes up on the right side of the bed one day and green lights a new alternate reality comic series without mandates, Archie stuff is never going to work anymore.
IDW is an okay run, just really bland, carried by excellent art compared to Archie's really shitty colors and inking. I can sleepwalk through issues of it, Scrapnik Island is probably the best part of the entire thing by miles.
And sadly, it's a good thing Shadow is barely in the comic because every time he shows up it fricking sucks worse than anything from Flynn's Archie run like 10 fold. He is the worst character in the comic and he ruins every arc he appears in, they should stop fricking using that character if they are mandated to write him that way honestly. Crazy because in Sonic Prime and I greatly enjoy that version of the character despite them not being too different from one another. Could just be that Prime is shit and Shadow fits right in, I don't know.
>He is the worst character in the franchise and he ruins every thing he appears in, they should stop fricking using that character if they are mandated to write him that way honestly.
FTFY
It's because Ian can't write Shadow correctly to even end world hunger.
This is why I am torn on Ian. He can write good stories and character development but then… he also CAN’T sometimes. Its almost like a flip of a coin with him. This shows immensely with his IDW run.
Not sure what happened but he has fallen off. I know Sega is a dick about Shadow but surely he could’ve done better
>He can write good stories and character development but then… he also CAN’T sometimes.
No he can't.
What Ian CAN DO, is take something someone else wrote, clean dat somb***h sideways and make it something worthwhile.
It's making his own ideas is when he starts choking
>It's like saying you like a character when they have a different personality, that's not really liking the character.
Guess I don't really like Sonic then.
Because the only times I tolerate the little blue fricker is when he's a wienery lil butthole with a heart of gold - in short, whenever he's NOT written by Sonic Team.
SEGA Sonic is baby's first shonen protag and a lame one at that.
SEGA Sonic is so whitebread that he makes Fleetway Sonic look charming
I don't agree, but you do you.
Shadow was fine in his Archie run, hit or miss, but the misses are nowhere near as dogshit as he is now.
Preboot Archie Shadow was very OOC. Reboot, while closer, still wasn't right. The IDW is Ian seething over Shadow not being friends with anyone and making him too much like Vegeta when even Prime has the same guidelines with Shadow yet has him not act like how Ian writes him.
Archie Shadow is one of my favorite versions of him. Dude had his baggage but he was able to open up to others and make friends, be a pretty nice guy, and continue to move on in Maria’s memory. One of my favorite moments of his, were his interactions with Hope.
This is one of the many reasons why I love Archie. It was one of the very few times were Shadow was written decently well.
I see where you're coming from, but at the same time, he didn't act like Shadow, which basically made him an OC.It's like saying you like a character when they have a different personality, that's not really liking the character.
Shadow barely acts like Shadow, that character is so wildly inconsistent even in such a short timeframe as between SA2 and 06 that it isn't even funny.
Personally I prefer his butthole egotistical persona from SA2, peppered with the last act's reveal of his true caring and sensitive personality. It's pretty accurate to Ian's writing of him in Archie so that's a point for me enjoying it at least.
He isn't really like this in Heroes or ShtH, and not even really in 06 though that game had a decent portrayal of him. Still he effectively becomes an entirely different character between all those games because muh amnesia. It's shit.
That’s why Shadow should be still dead after SA2. Almost every his appearance after that is ass.
Maybe it was a little OOC but he felt like a version of shadow from after SA2, to me anyway.
I certainly like it way better than the Shadow(s) we got starting in 2005.
Prime Shadow is an exception, he’s cool. Dude’s only pissed at Sonic because of reckless he is and… because he destroyed the entire fricking universe. Lmao
Honestly, the only Shadows I consider legitimately bad are IDW and Boom Shadow
Black person, nobody knows how Shadow is supposed to act. His early appearances are marked by him having two bouts of amnesia and his personality changed from game to game, or even within games.
It wasn't until the mid 2010s that SEGA decided to pin down what Shadow is actually like and their understanding amounts to "See the intro to Shadow's game? Just do that". Shit, they even tried retconning Gerald Robotnik and Mario during their NO HUMANS phase.
I don't care how OOC Archie Shadow was to whatever online bio SEGA made of him, Ian Flynn is the only writer that actually tried to make something of the character that's at least consistent and mindful of his history.
Explain that again without the racism and more emotional maturity.
No, don't.
I accept your concession.
Delete /sthg/
Daily reminder the resident anti archie/satam schizo is a Cinemaphile janny.
I think I'm just starting to get tired of Sonic.
But I don't know if that's because of what the franchise produces, or the fandom.
Let’s say culumbo had to have a crossover with the first two dic sonic shows, what would be better, aosth or satam?
Archie Shadow being OOC is complete revisionism.
Nobody thought this until a few years ago when IDW Shadow debuted and it became an Ian vs Sega issue, but there was never any debate about whether Shadow was written correctly at Archie as it happened.
There were game characters Ian was credited with "fixing", like Omega and Silver, and even characters he was criticized for like Rouge, Tails and Amy, but Shadow was right in the middle as a character he just got right and nobody really thought twice about it.
No, I heard complaints back then too, but there were also people who liked it.
>Rouge
Yeah, preboot Rouge was the one character Ian wrote that really rubbed me the wrong way. She manipulated Knuckles' feelings about his dead father to get him away from the Master Emerald and was willing to let Blaze's world die to get her hands on the Sol Emeralds. Preboot Rouge just seemed like a sociopath rather than a shady-but-heroic government agent.
Why the frick was Archie Rouge the way she was? She's an undercover cop and a voice of reason for team dark, but in Archie she's like if Cat Woman went insane.
Ian wanted to write her as a neutral anti-hero, someone who could help or hinder the heroes depending on her mood. She got a lot nicer in the reboot because nobody liked evil Rouge.
It just makes no sense because it's implied it was all an act In the story and that introduced her anyways. Outside of being a petty thief maybe, but that shouldn't have made her that evil.
I kind of get what he was going for. He was basically writing Heroes Rouge. Someone who can be nice but is ready to pick fights with anyone over treasure.
But he took it too far. It's funny how in his very first story, Ian has Rouge hold Scourge back because she refuses to kill for treasure, then later has Rouge willing to doom Blaze's world by stealing the Sol Emerald.
Ian didn't fix shit
Mobians and Humans frick and that is based.
Anon these arts are cute, artist?
Bridgeoffaust
Thanks!
Speaking of sonic is there any guide out for which comics to read and which to avoid?
Read all of them anon. The full experience is recommended.
Do I really gotta read Ken Penders?
Yes, even Ken’s issues. It’s part of the Archie Sonic experience. You must also experience the pain and suffering. And on the bright side, some of his writing will read like a hilarious shitpost instead of just something horrendously bad so there’s that.
No you must read every single one of them The Ride doesn't skip parts
Even the worst issues are eye opening and become necessary given what happens in the future. Also the "bad" comics so far aren't even that bad. But there are some really bad comics and Penders is responsible for virtually all of them. Go figure. Still the guy can write really well at times which is also weird as frick.
Yeah, strangely there are stories like Mobius: 25 Years later. That’s actually one of the few times the dude actually writes characters well, specifically Sonic.
People jump on this story because it’s “unrealistic for Sonic to become king because it doesn’t fit with his lifestyle” but this story literally shows us *why* Sonic would become King and why it is indeed a bad fit for him.
My main complaint about that story is Shadow… you’ll see why.
And meant to reply to this dude here too:
>unrealistic for Sonic to become king
It's unrealistic for Sonic AND Sally to become the monarchs of the whole planet. They stopped Eggman from taking over the world just to do it themselves.
>My main complaint about that story is Shadow… you’ll see why.
Eh, King Shadow's just an evil alternate universe version of Shadow, just like Scourge is to Sonic. It's best not to think of him and Shadow as the same character.
Or just join the Ride, anon it's everyday at 7pm EST
As a young child I didn't know these were separate shows, I thought it just had serious episodes and goofy episodes. It didn't help that the early comics felt like they were somewhere between the two in tone and aesthetic.
after issue 40, Archie Sonic got hit with C.S.
c.s.?
It’s crazy to me how much Sally kept changing early on, not just in design, but in personality too.
Glad that she does get better/more consistent (things still are weird before Ian’s run) because boy do I get to love her more. I just wish that the writers didn’t do a tug of war with her for such a while because more consistent writing would have made her much more compelling.
There was no distinction between continuities back in the day. Remember that old coloring book everyone used to meme? That had Adventures Robotnik, references to Knothole from SATAM and Knuckles who was only in the games at that point.
I remember just being bothered by the whole show seeming to take place in some wacky Salvador Dali looking plane of reality for no discernable reason.
>Remember that old coloring book everyone used to meme? That had Adventures Robotnik, references to Knothole from SATAM and Knuckles who was only in the games at that point.
It also had Porker and Sally from Fleetway.
Had no context for this as a kid but it looks like you're right
see
Porker Lewis and Johnny Lightfoot were from the original pitch for the Sonic cartoon. I'm guessing when they shopped the idea around in Europe, Fleetway decided to keep both them AND the original origin pitch for Sonic that SoA had created (the one where Robotnik was a nice scientist and Sonic was a regular hedgehog until they got hit with Chaos Emerald radiation).
IIRC, that's how the show was originally pitched to ABC. AoStH would be the weekly series about when Sonic and Tails first fought Robotnik, while the SatAM would be a "flash-foward" to after when Robotnik took over the world and Sonic needed the help of the Freedom Fighters to stop him.
ABC didn't want the weekly show, so it got turned into a syndicated series instead and they got a separate VAs for Robotnik.
Is... Is this a bait thread?
No, it’s a Scott Pilgrim reference that is also a Sonic reference but nobody realized the former part so here we are, lmao
As a kid my local stations didn't play Adventures. I only ever saw Satam on NBC Saturday morning and rather liked it.
Then a couple years later when I was an older kid, I went to my grandmother's house in another state and saw Adventures on tv. I remember hearing that Sonic would be on next and thinking sweet. I was pretty shocked that there was another Sonic show, and one where the animation was a lot cheaper and everything seemed dumb.
I know people like it now because it got meme'd but at the time, as a kid, I was completely unimpressed by knockoff Looney Tunes Sonic.
I cannot understand you homosexuals enjoying Shadow.
Maybe I can understand Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 as a product of the 90s , but having a game like Shadow and Sonic 06 released in 2005-2006 is disgusting. It feels like an indie project. It feels like some morons who had 0 game design ideas and 0 engine qualifications make a game.
Shadow should have been like Max Payne and Grand Theft Auto or even Serious Sam from the way they advertised it. And even then it was suppose to be Sonic with guns because Earthworm Jim had a gun, JJR had a gun, everyone in the 90s had a fricking gun, except Sonic the chucklefrick lameass who needs to copy Journey to the West, Goku, Mario and Megaman at their worst attributes possible.
Shadow seemed to learn his lesson in SA2 and was inoffensive in Heroes. I only thought he was annoying on w they leaned into him being an arrogant edgelord in his self titled game.
Shadow at the end of SA2 is the one and true Shadow. I have accepted the fact that the dude died and was replaced by an Android (Edgy the Hedgy).
Archie Shadow surprisingly enough, feels a lot like the real Shadow, or rather a version of Shadow that continued to move on from SA2 in a healthy and more positive manner. Though sometimes he can be hit or miss.
Archie Shadow didn't get amnesia.
holy shit I just got it