Guess what?
We need an animation-exclusive streaming service funded by crowdfunded sites.
We need indie animators/animated studios creating spiritual successor from cancelled/removed good animated shows and rejected good animated pilots.
We need to create a DeviantArt clone/spiritual successor (either decentralized or not) art site with better features, better infrastructure, better management, mostly listening to the fans/creators clearly, and completely banning generative AI art/writing altogether.
>completely banning generative AI art/writing altogether
Shot yourself in the foot right there. AI is what will make the otherwise intractably time-consuming and expensive process possible for independent creators. Sans that you're at Mr. Shekelberg's mercy.
Outside of telling you to seethe, using generative tools to auto fill frames and color them would be the only way a team of 3 or 5 people could reasonably make a cartoon on a consistent schedule. AI is the future for small content creator teams
No
The average (99 percent) indie cartoons will get lost in a sea of other projects. Probably getting 10k views at best.
There's literally no point in trying
What's worse is that projects like Digital Circus, Helluva and Port by the Sea are deluding audiences into expecting that level of quality as the minimum standard.
If something like older Eddsworld started today it would flop horrifically
if analog horror has thought me something is that people don't have standards. as long as the writing appeals to people, the actual production quality will be forgiving. unless you are aiming to compete with other professional level projects.
There was plenty of immensely crude Flash animation made by teenagers back then like Eddsworld, but Eddsworld had a core cast with frequent episodes in a series, and played out similar to a TV cartoon with its structure. It had a natural progression, reflecting its influences more and more until Edd Gould died at 23.
Money wasn't a factor for me >Satisfaction
Honestly after making my animation I just felt exhaustion and embarrassment
The whole ordeal was completely demoralizing
For me the process was therapeutic. Crafting my own characters and world and bringing them to life did so much for me than any therapist. I know it' might fail but I'm focused on the journey rather than the destination. It got me through a few years of my life and for that it's a success even at 0 views.
Not saying that it works for everyone its just my personal experience.
This
Not sure why when it comes to art, people ignore reality
Your work will not be viewed
It will be poorly made
You will have wasted years of your life
animation projects requires people to >have a work ethic >talented >not autistic
and for it to be finically successful >be business savvy
its asking for way to much to be THE FUTURE of the industry.
Honestly
Giving up on art and animation was the best decision I've ever made
I feel free
You need connections and a mild following to get your shit watched. Other than that, just give it the old college try.
This
Not sure why when it comes to art, people ignore reality
Your work will not be viewed
It will be poorly made
You will have wasted years of your life
>only making art in pursuit of le content engagement and le heckin dopamine that comes from validation
Black person, you're supposed to make art because you like making art. Whether it obtains an audience or whether it's even good at first is 1000% irrelevant unless you're a narcissist manbaby in search of asspats.
Every artist who post shit is doing it for validation
Artists back in the day killed themselves because they got no attention
Artists are literally all homosexuals
no because most indie animators aren't going to be making the shit that lands with mass audiences, they're going to make their boring niche "passion projects" that they've been holding onto since they were a teenager (see: Zuerel)
Well, it worked like that for the gaming industry; Indie woks bring in fresh faces with desire to do something different (or something exactly the same, but let's take the good with the bad as it hurts nobody) and chances are that they might move into "procesional" animation if they make a success, while inspiring people to pursue something that used to be extremely gatekept.
It's the reason why it's easier to find well animated games vs. cartoons. You're allowed to reuse the animation frames as many times as you want, but with cartoons it's discouraged and you have to make new ones for each and every scene.
Of course not, but people are more prone to point it out and dismiss the whole thing as cheap. You only need one run cycle for a character in a game but use it twice in your cartoon and people will mention it.
Yes, unless Titmouse, Tonic DNA, Yowza, Snipple, Studio Red Frog and Studio Mir have their business licensees revoked and black listed from the entire animation industry for all the damages they done to to.
Studio Mir alone did more damage to the animation industry in a month then what Filmation did in 27 years.
Murder drones people have funding backed by Australian gov, on top of merch sales/ads/deals. Vivzies stuff is made by a network, albeit helluvaboss was using patreon funds and even then a lot of luck (notice how theres not more of a series/quality like that).
Lackadaisy needed a kickstarter for one episode, and even that took forever to finish one thing (and the comic is basically dead).
So no they arent the future unless AI becomes sentient.
>Murder drones people have funding backed by Australian gov, on top of merch sales/ads/deals.
MD hasn't received government money since like episode 4/5. And even if it did, you ARE aware that many governments throw money at "arts & culture", right? All the entertainment stuff is made in California and Vancouver because of tax incentives, not because "all the cool kids are there"
I don't see how. Indie animation is unable to achieve either high production standards or reliable weekly releases or sometimes both. The fact is that a proper studio and production pipeline is necessary to make a product like this work. Look at TADC: only ONE episode, the "show" is basically living off of its virality and fandom producing fan content and buying merch. Is this the model that we want?
>Look at TADC: only ONE episode, the "show" is basically living off of its virality and fandom producing fan content and buying merch. Is this the model that we want?
Anon, Nickelodeon's execs proudly boast of pursuing exactly that model - something needs to get Spongebob numbers right away in order for them to give a crap about it. And even putting Nick aside, most non-theatrical animation has been produced with the intention of selling merch
Animation is more expensive than gamedev though isn't it?
Game engines really opened the toolbox for indie developers - that's why everyone lost their shit then Unity tried to pull that crap last year. Indie animation needs a "game-engine" type of technology that can produce in-between frames without looking cheap or half-assed
>Indie animation needs a "game-engine" type of technology that can produce in-between frames without looking cheap or half-assed
AI is looking to be a good candidate for that
I agree, that is why I'm not personally so anti-AI. All the crap that animators on Twitter say about AI coming for their jobs isn't so untrue, but not for the reason they are saying.
Their (valid) concern is execs wanting to use AI to mass-produce cheap slop without hiring animators, actors or writers. Studios have proven they'd do it in a heartbeat if people let them get away with it. That isn't an AI problem tho, it's a studio problem
The real factor at play here is that once AI becomes advanced enough to create a program that does in-betweening for you (and isn't crap), the real creatives and ideas guys will get turbo-charged and be able to produce much faster and at a lower monetary and time cost. THEY will praise AI when that happens. The grunt-workers drawing each frame will be out of a job though, just like blue collar workers were when robots started building cars. It will be shift and people will come out of it beaten up, but it's probably inevitable - and that is the unsexy part of animation anyways
The switch from traditional cels to digital animation in ToonBoom and Flash really just removed the need to draw and paint on paper, but someone still needs to sketch all the in-between drawings. Game engines come sort of pre-setup already, and an AI-animation version of that would spring indie studios like mushrooms within the year
Inbetweens were never the problem. You can animate with 0 inbetweens and just cutting between keyframes, and if those are drawn well and timed properly it will still look infintely better than inbetween tweened bullshit. Furthermore anything with fast movement needs very little inbetweening.
>Most non-theatrical animation has been produced with the intention of selling merch.
Not in the 50s, 60s, last few years of the 1980s, 90s and 2000s.
It was at it's worst in the 70s and 80s, it's why John K entered the industry to stop this shit, it's only after John K got exposed as a groomer that we went back to the hell scape that was the 80s.
Flash only looks as good as the number of drawings you put into the software.
The equine show looked good in flash, but even that supposedly had its propietary add-ons and tooks weeks to animate
Australia wants its creatives to make stuff so they fund up and coming projects/artists/etc:
On 5 December 2018, Glitch released the trailer for Meta Runner after multiple teasers that would air on the SMG4 channel on 25 July 2019.[5] The series, funded by Screen Australia, became the top-performing online investment from the company, racking up 10 million viewers across its first season.[6] The first season was also financed with support from Crunchyroll and AMD,[7] and financed in association with Epic Games.[7][8] On 20 April 2020, Screen Australia announced that they would be funding a second season of Meta Runner.[9] On 27 August 2020, the studio moved their operations to their own official YouTube channel.[10]
What is your point? Do you think indie games are all made by one single nerd in his room? Even the most simple ones are made by teams of a dozen people or so, the more complex ones like Amnesia are made by small studios.
Don't start with animation from the get go unless you just want to do short animated clips. Start with webcomics first so you actually learn how to storyboard and sequence scenes.
I don't see how. Indie animation is unable to achieve either high production standards or reliable weekly releases or sometimes both. The fact is that a proper studio and production pipeline is necessary to make a product like this work. Look at TADC: only ONE episode, the "show" is basically living off of its virality and fandom producing fan content and buying merch. Is this the model that we want?
You're better off making a game. Same time investment, but even if both have a high chance of getting lost in the sea games can get luckier. Make money too
Yes, because it has to be. Corporate top-down animation projects over the past 20 years have shown that the people in charge of studios have zero fricking idea what audiences want, and the people they hire to make things on their behalf are not much better. They throw millions of dollars at an idea that was dreamed up by a focus group and no one int he real world has any interest in, and the first reality check they ever get about their stupid idea is 3 years later when it finally airs and they are FLABBERGASTED that the sure thing they promised investors would be the next big hit is in fact trash.
Learn a lesson from the anime industry's LN -> manga -> anime pipeline: you give platforms for indie content creators to make their own shit with a low investment threshold, most of them doing it for free on their own. 99.9% of them will fail. The 0.1% that succeed are worth looking at further, seeing whether there is anything there worth giving a real shot and an actual budget.
Don't try to force the next big thing, cast a hundred lines and let the next big thing come to you. Be content with investing in a successful new IP and making money off of something you do not 100% own yourselves, you greedy corporate fricks.
Animation of the last 15 years turned into mostly a small insular friends club. And they will tell you this openly, art school and the recruiters will tell you that the key to landing a job is networking their way. Which means become friends with them on social media. And they only really hire fellow like people from Tumblr in the early 00s and Twitter later on.
So all the major studio output has been the same early 00s anime inspired self insert crap by the same 20 or so people over and over and over again. And all of a sudden Star Vs, Molly McGee, Amphibia, and Owl House have super saiyan transformation fights. Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network are only interested in rebooting the same few shows over and over and over again.
Audiences want something different.
Animators want to actually make a show that is not a Ben 10 reboot, Loud House spinoff, Spongebob spinoff, or We Bear Bears reboot. And they do not want to beg for years to finally join the post Adventure Time/Gravity Falls social club just to land a medium income job....that only keeps them employed for 5 months at the most.
>late 90s/early 00s anime inspired self insert crap
There hasn't been any western show that was "inspired" by the likes of Cardcaptor Sakura, Ojamajo Doremi, Stg. Frog, Hamtaro, Princess Tutu, Mirumo De Pon, Kirby Right Back At Ya, Mermaid Melody Pichi Pichi Pitch and Twin Princess of Wonder Planet.
The most they did was refence Naruto and Bleach, in teams of anime it's just Sailor Moon (early 90s) and Dragon Ball Z (very late 80s and early 90s), and it was never self insert crap, just badly made jokes that insulted the Japanese even worse then the likes of Tokyo Jokio, You're A Sap Mr.Jap and Bugs Bunny Nips The Nips.
If they cared about the Japanese they would of been refencing Sazae-San, Chibi Maruko-Chan, Doraemon, Shin-Chan, Anpanman, The World Masterpiece Theater (really just Heidi and Anne of Green Gables), Rascal the Racoon and of course Hamtaro instead of Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball Z.
I blame Haruhi Suzumiya for anime's down fall, they lost and failed to lean anything from John K and his blog.
This is a lot of just fricking weird schizo rambling...
And no, these shows were made by people who just watched Toonami in 99-2002 and just stuck Dragonball, Sailor Moon, and Tenchi Muyo references into every single thing. Not the entire weeb laundry list you have here.
Only speaking on their anime shows here.
Dragon Ball = 1985
Dragon Ball Z =1989
Sailor Moon = 1992
Tenchi Muyo = 1995
Anon wanted late 90s/early 2000s anime, not late 80s and early 90s anime with one anime from the mid 1990s.
Personally I believe that what western animation needs to take away from anime more than anything else is not referencing a specific show, or referencing a specific art or writing style. The most important lesson for cartoons to re-learn is that you work needs some fricking PASSION in it.
Anime is full of shows that are deeply flawed in some way or another, but remain endearing and a fun watch because the people making it were having a blast doing it. You need someone in the room who honestly thinks that what you are making is the coolest shit ever, or the funniest thing they have ever seen, etc. Because that guy forms the heart of your project and drags everything else around him up towards his expectations.
Like the conversation above about the limitations of indie animation, and how its too hard or how its destined to fail for X Y Z reasons. Meanwhile, this youtube video was made by 2 gacha game fans in their spare time for free.
Is it perfect? No. But its *dripping* with style and that comes directly from the fact that the guy who made it honestly thought he was doing something super cool and was invested in making it look as awesome on the screen as he imagined it in his head. And I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw that same level of energy in cartoons.
Anime can work, Tiny Toon Adventures and the original Animaniacs took it's lesions from the first 2 Lupin III series (but mostly Red Jacket episodes 145 and 155), The Castle Of Cagliostro, Heidi Girl Of The Alps, Anne of Green Gables, Tensai Bakabon (only the first 2 series), The Gutsy Frog, Sherlock Hound (only episodes 3, 4, 5, 9, 10 and 11) and Jarinko Chie (only the movie and first series).
The problem is that modern animators failed to take in the good stuff and only bother with Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball Z, you're lucky if they use One Piece as "inspiration" *cough*Turning Red where Mei ships herself with bootleg Monkey D. Luffy*cough*, research before you deal with anime and you will understand what works and doesn't.
....every one of those shows made up the Toonami lineup in 1999. The time which they hit mainstream normie status in the US. That's where that anon was comping from.
Personally I believe that what western animation needs to take away from anime more than anything else is not referencing a specific show, or referencing a specific art or writing style. The most important lesson for cartoons to re-learn is that you work needs some fricking PASSION in it.
Anime is full of shows that are deeply flawed in some way or another, but remain endearing and a fun watch because the people making it were having a blast doing it. You need someone in the room who honestly thinks that what you are making is the coolest shit ever, or the funniest thing they have ever seen, etc. Because that guy forms the heart of your project and drags everything else around him up towards his expectations.
Like the conversation above about the limitations of indie animation, and how its too hard or how its destined to fail for X Y Z reasons. Meanwhile, this youtube video was made by 2 gacha game fans in their spare time for free.
Is it perfect? No. But its *dripping* with style and that comes directly from the fact that the guy who made it honestly thought he was doing something super cool and was invested in making it look as awesome on the screen as he imagined it in his head. And I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw that same level of energy in cartoons.
Only speaking on their anime shows here.
Dragon Ball = 1985
Dragon Ball Z =1989
Sailor Moon = 1992
Tenchi Muyo = 1995
Anon wanted late 90s/early 2000s anime, not late 80s and early 90s anime with one anime from the mid 1990s.
[...]
Anime can work, Tiny Toon Adventures and the original Animaniacs took it's lesions from the first 2 Lupin III series (but mostly Red Jacket episodes 145 and 155), The Castle Of Cagliostro, Heidi Girl Of The Alps, Anne of Green Gables, Tensai Bakabon (only the first 2 series), The Gutsy Frog, Sherlock Hound (only episodes 3, 4, 5, 9, 10 and 11) and Jarinko Chie (only the movie and first series).
The problem is that modern animators failed to take in the good stuff and only bother with Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball Z, you're lucky if they use One Piece as "inspiration" *cough*Turning Red where Mei ships herself with bootleg Monkey D. Luffy*cough*, research before you deal with anime and you will understand what works and doesn't.
Anon, the shows that person mentioned were all on Cartoon Network in the height of the Toonami afternoon days. Everything you mentioned were not. Outside of that, there is no point in displaying how much 90s era deep lore you have about when shows did and did not release for the first time in Japan because none of that is even remotely relevant. Drqagonball Z hit big mainstream status in the US in the late 90s to early 00s due to Cartoon Newtwork. Which is the time when modern animators of today were watching and influenced as kids.
This should not be that hard to grasp or need multiple people explaining it to you.
That is exactly what was meant, you are just being autistic.
Your first mistake is actually attempting to argue with Famicom. Notice how absolutely no one else is doing that. He has his own special version of reality he cobbled together that makes zero sense to everyone else.
well, if people stop b***hing and whining about capitalism and shit....
then maybe the indie industry can take over the world and the wokeslop infection on the mainstream media.
and so, the west will not fall again and we can live in a world full of peace and hope again! I just hope those commie bastardsw and the neo-nazi pigs don't ruin everything and future we want today.
I mean, probably? I know for certain that children's animation is going to bite it at the rate its going; Cocomelon and other brainrot cartoons have been eating the likes of PBS alive. CN is nearly dead, Nickelodeon is scraping by with the sponge and DTVA is the best one off but it isn't exactly thriving. The children's market looks like a lost cause, but I think that adult or teen shows could do well.
Cocomelon's viewership is out of India and the middle east, the US and Canada is too busy watching Game Sack, The 8-Bit Guy and LGR to give 2 shits about Cocomelon, plus the US and Canada DISPISES Cocomelon.
they're thinking like
anyone older than them would. the problem is with tv pretty much dead, there's no re-runs anymore. there are reboots of movies and some shows, but younger kids are watching youtube and shit. youtube also can't show the actual piece of media, unless they are allowed to upload whatever it is. we started seeing this with younger zoomers.
i didn't need a video essay and a meme to get me to watch American Psycho. I saw that shit on HBO in the 2000s. Granted there were a lot of things i did seek out, but a lot of it i just happened to catch on tv. My parents gave me access to other media as well.
With Zoomers at least they have more of a sense of that. God knows what the case will be with gen Alpha and younger. Everything will be Youtube videos or short clips many of which that have no story.
No, they're pretty huge, normies of all ages watch them.
....every one of those shows made up the Toonami lineup in 1999. The time which they hit mainstream normie status in the US. That's where that anon was comping from.
[...]
Anon, the shows that person mentioned were all on Cartoon Network in the height of the Toonami afternoon days. Everything you mentioned were not. Outside of that, there is no point in displaying how much 90s era deep lore you have about when shows did and did not release for the first time in Japan because none of that is even remotely relevant. Drqagonball Z hit big mainstream status in the US in the late 90s to early 00s due to Cartoon Newtwork. Which is the time when modern animators of today were watching and influenced as kids.
This should not be that hard to grasp or need multiple people explaining it to you.
Thats not what that anon meant, he was saying anime from the late early 2000s but Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon are much older then that.
why do all zoomers assume everyone else know about whatever little gayass twink streamers they personally are into
Those guys are in their 30s and 40s and all of them are straight.
1 month ago
Anonymous
That is exactly what was meant, you are just being autistic.
1 month ago
Anonymous
No it wasn't, early 2000s anime is something like Hamtaro, Kirby Right Back At Ya and Mirumo De Pon, Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon are much older then that.
FRICKING SUZUMIYA!!!! If she never happen anime will still be a kids/family pass time.
Obviously old data, but burgers are far behind public media funding compared to other countries so our culture industry relies more and more on nepotism and cronyism
You want to back some quality animation?
Go back Tales of Alethrion, it needs the money for Kickstartering S3.
Only problem with it is they keep putting the first video made as the third in chronological series.
Yes, but it was pretty much forced into being the only path because of just how shit it is to do any actual work in the big leagues >TV networks are shambling corpses living off reruns and all have their own horror stories of how miserable they are to work in now >Streaming still has no fricking idea how to handle animated series, has a mile long trail of dead or failed shows for either incompetence or mismanagement
Its called a cycle the indie grows strong and overwhelms the status quo due to a new thing they offer (in this case its more freedom in writing and new ways to support like merch and patreon) and starts to absorb them before becoming the new status quo that eventually goes corporate through a need to make a decent amount of cartoons instead of one episode every few months.
Of course this is likely the last cycle of power change that will happen as AI will likely be accepted as a standard by the next generation that has grown up with it and doesn't care about the repercussions of it
Simply because there is no money in it. GLITCH and some others have been successful at setting up Patreons and selling merchandise, but that's somewhat limited in what you can achieve on a small scale. You can't guarantee merchandise sales and you can't keep paying everyone thru ad revenue. And the animations which can be produced as free fan content is inherently limited.
It'll be possible for an indie studio to become a professional one, possibly even not selling out and still making animation, but I wouldn't expect to see indie animation to really get any better than it currently is. It hasn't changed much over the last few decades, and no, a few animations getting hugely popular doesn't change that.
More and more streaming services keep cancelling and removing animated shows, so probably.
Guess what?
We need an animation-exclusive streaming service funded by crowdfunded sites.
We need indie animators/animated studios creating spiritual successor from cancelled/removed good animated shows and rejected good animated pilots.
We need to create a DeviantArt clone/spiritual successor (either decentralized or not) art site with better features, better infrastructure, better management, mostly listening to the fans/creators clearly, and completely banning generative AI art/writing altogether.
>completely banning generative AI art/writing altogether
Shot yourself in the foot right there. AI is what will make the otherwise intractably time-consuming and expensive process possible for independent creators. Sans that you're at Mr. Shekelberg's mercy.
>Banning AI
Outside of telling you to seethe, using generative tools to auto fill frames and color them would be the only way a team of 3 or 5 people could reasonably make a cartoon on a consistent schedule. AI is the future for small content creator teams
Not gonna watch an AI tainted cartoon.
Then seethe
Wow. There's barely any animation there, no change in angles, and the AI SEAMLESSLY interpolated it! WOW!!!
Kek that looks awful
No, it's much better then what the west/Korea/The Philippines is doing.
I've seen flash animations in 2003 that looked better.
That is 100% fake.
Famicom post.
literally newgrounds
future deez nuts
frick off
No
The average (99 percent) indie cartoons will get lost in a sea of other projects. Probably getting 10k views at best.
There's literally no point in trying
this.
animation projects requires people to
>have a work ethic
>talented
>not autistic
and for it to be finically successful
>be business savvy
its asking for way to much to be THE FUTURE of the industry.
What's worse is that projects like Digital Circus, Helluva and Port by the Sea are deluding audiences into expecting that level of quality as the minimum standard.
If something like older Eddsworld started today it would flop horrifically
if analog horror has thought me something is that people don't have standards. as long as the writing appeals to people, the actual production quality will be forgiving. unless you are aiming to compete with other professional level projects.
There was plenty of immensely crude Flash animation made by teenagers back then like Eddsworld, but Eddsworld had a core cast with frequent episodes in a series, and played out similar to a TV cartoon with its structure. It had a natural progression, reflecting its influences more and more until Edd Gould died at 23.
>talented
>not autistic
You do have to be autistically devoted.
Honestly
Giving up on art and animation was the best decision I've ever made
I feel free
As opposed to mainstream cartoons on streaming services getting lost in a sea of other projects? And then becoming tax writeoffs because of it?
If indie animation is fricked, Hollywood animation is turbo-fricked
You need connections and a mild following to get your shit watched. Other than that, just give it the old college try.
The old college try isn't worth the man hours and money put into it
Well why are you making it? For money, fame, or the satisfaction of getting a project done?
Money wasn't a factor for me
>Satisfaction
Honestly after making my animation I just felt exhaustion and embarrassment
The whole ordeal was completely demoralizing
For me the process was therapeutic. Crafting my own characters and world and bringing them to life did so much for me than any therapist. I know it' might fail but I'm focused on the journey rather than the destination. It got me through a few years of my life and for that it's a success even at 0 views.
Not saying that it works for everyone its just my personal experience.
This
Not sure why when it comes to art, people ignore reality
Your work will not be viewed
It will be poorly made
You will have wasted years of your life
>only making art in pursuit of le content engagement and le heckin dopamine that comes from validation
Black person, you're supposed to make art because you like making art. Whether it obtains an audience or whether it's even good at first is 1000% irrelevant unless you're a narcissist manbaby in search of asspats.
Every artist who post shit is doing it for validation
Artists back in the day killed themselves because they got no attention
Artists are literally all homosexuals
If I give you no attention, will you also have a nice day?
I already did
Damn, actually indieez nuts sounds punchier. Pretend I said that instead
gay
HOW MANY TIMES ARE YOU GOING TO ASK THIS YOU homosexual?
Only if you got something that people wanna watch.
no because most indie animators aren't going to be making the shit that lands with mass audiences, they're going to make their boring niche "passion projects" that they've been holding onto since they were a teenager (see: Zuerel)
Most indie toons will be lucky to make Monkey Wrench numbers tbh.
Most just come and go without any attention
Well, it worked like that for the gaming industry; Indie woks bring in fresh faces with desire to do something different (or something exactly the same, but let's take the good with the bad as it hurts nobody) and chances are that they might move into "procesional" animation if they make a success, while inspiring people to pursue something that used to be extremely gatekept.
Animation is more expensive than gamedev though isn't it?
It's the reason why it's easier to find well animated games vs. cartoons. You're allowed to reuse the animation frames as many times as you want, but with cartoons it's discouraged and you have to make new ones for each and every scene.
Oh damn
There's nothing stopping indie animators from reusing frames.
Of course not, but people are more prone to point it out and dismiss the whole thing as cheap. You only need one run cycle for a character in a game but use it twice in your cartoon and people will mention it.
Yes, unless Titmouse, Tonic DNA, Yowza, Snipple, Studio Red Frog and Studio Mir have their business licensees revoked and black listed from the entire animation industry for all the damages they done to to.
Studio Mir alone did more damage to the animation industry in a month then what Filmation did in 27 years.
NG animators still haven't made their own ATHF, so it's still inferior.
They did, you just forgot about it:
https://www.youtube.com/@Bizonacci
Murder drones people have funding backed by Australian gov, on top of merch sales/ads/deals. Vivzies stuff is made by a network, albeit helluvaboss was using patreon funds and even then a lot of luck (notice how theres not more of a series/quality like that).
Lackadaisy needed a kickstarter for one episode, and even that took forever to finish one thing (and the comic is basically dead).
So no they arent the future unless AI becomes sentient.
>Murder drones people have funding backed by Australian gov, on top of merch sales/ads/deals.
MD hasn't received government money since like episode 4/5. And even if it did, you ARE aware that many governments throw money at "arts & culture", right? All the entertainment stuff is made in California and Vancouver because of tax incentives, not because "all the cool kids are there"
>Look at TADC: only ONE episode, the "show" is basically living off of its virality and fandom producing fan content and buying merch. Is this the model that we want?
Anon, Nickelodeon's execs proudly boast of pursuing exactly that model - something needs to get Spongebob numbers right away in order for them to give a crap about it. And even putting Nick aside, most non-theatrical animation has been produced with the intention of selling merch
Game engines really opened the toolbox for indie developers - that's why everyone lost their shit then Unity tried to pull that crap last year. Indie animation needs a "game-engine" type of technology that can produce in-between frames without looking cheap or half-assed
>Indie animation needs a "game-engine" type of technology that can produce in-between frames without looking cheap or half-assed
AI is looking to be a good candidate for that
I agree, that is why I'm not personally so anti-AI. All the crap that animators on Twitter say about AI coming for their jobs isn't so untrue, but not for the reason they are saying.
Their (valid) concern is execs wanting to use AI to mass-produce cheap slop without hiring animators, actors or writers. Studios have proven they'd do it in a heartbeat if people let them get away with it. That isn't an AI problem tho, it's a studio problem
The real factor at play here is that once AI becomes advanced enough to create a program that does in-betweening for you (and isn't crap), the real creatives and ideas guys will get turbo-charged and be able to produce much faster and at a lower monetary and time cost. THEY will praise AI when that happens. The grunt-workers drawing each frame will be out of a job though, just like blue collar workers were when robots started building cars. It will be shift and people will come out of it beaten up, but it's probably inevitable - and that is the unsexy part of animation anyways
The switch from traditional cels to digital animation in ToonBoom and Flash really just removed the need to draw and paint on paper, but someone still needs to sketch all the in-between drawings. Game engines come sort of pre-setup already, and an AI-animation version of that would spring indie studios like mushrooms within the year
Inbetweens were never the problem. You can animate with 0 inbetweens and just cutting between keyframes, and if those are drawn well and timed properly it will still look infintely better than inbetween tweened bullshit. Furthermore anything with fast movement needs very little inbetweening.
>Most non-theatrical animation has been produced with the intention of selling merch.
Not in the 50s, 60s, last few years of the 1980s, 90s and 2000s.
It was at it's worst in the 70s and 80s, it's why John K entered the industry to stop this shit, it's only after John K got exposed as a groomer that we went back to the hell scape that was the 80s.
>Game Engine for animation
It's called flash
Flash only looks as good as the number of drawings you put into the software.
The equine show looked good in flash, but even that supposedly had its propietary add-ons and tooks weeks to animate
Indie animation shouldn't be professional quality, if it's done by one guy on a shoestring budget. Unsustainable, and has horrible turnaround time.
Wait. Murder drones is funded by the australian government? But why?
Australia wants its creatives to make stuff so they fund up and coming projects/artists/etc:
On 5 December 2018, Glitch released the trailer for Meta Runner after multiple teasers that would air on the SMG4 channel on 25 July 2019.[5] The series, funded by Screen Australia, became the top-performing online investment from the company, racking up 10 million viewers across its first season.[6] The first season was also financed with support from Crunchyroll and AMD,[7] and financed in association with Epic Games.[7][8] On 20 April 2020, Screen Australia announced that they would be funding a second season of Meta Runner.[9] On 27 August 2020, the studio moved their operations to their own official YouTube channel.[10]
What is your point? Do you think indie games are all made by one single nerd in his room? Even the most simple ones are made by teams of a dozen people or so, the more complex ones like Amnesia are made by small studios.
Guess how many people made stardey valley.
one.
Don't start with animation from the get go unless you just want to do short animated clips. Start with webcomics first so you actually learn how to storyboard and sequence scenes.
Best advice ITT.
I don't see how. Indie animation is unable to achieve either high production standards or reliable weekly releases or sometimes both. The fact is that a proper studio and production pipeline is necessary to make a product like this work. Look at TADC: only ONE episode, the "show" is basically living off of its virality and fandom producing fan content and buying merch. Is this the model that we want?
Pretty much why i switched from trying to make my animated series on youtube and instead using the art/assets/idea to make a game instead.
This is why flash animation was created
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Internet animation wasn't supposed to be full animation, just key poses that tell you enough about what's going on
No, these times will either be forgotten or remembered as awful times.
Currently it is the only viable means for animators to get their work out and make a dollar for it.
Only if they use it for porn commissions
The future of gen a morons maybe
I wish Harry would give up on Starbarians.
Nope
Yea
You're better off making a game. Same time investment, but even if both have a high chance of getting lost in the sea games can get luckier. Make money too
Yes, because it has to be. Corporate top-down animation projects over the past 20 years have shown that the people in charge of studios have zero fricking idea what audiences want, and the people they hire to make things on their behalf are not much better. They throw millions of dollars at an idea that was dreamed up by a focus group and no one int he real world has any interest in, and the first reality check they ever get about their stupid idea is 3 years later when it finally airs and they are FLABBERGASTED that the sure thing they promised investors would be the next big hit is in fact trash.
Learn a lesson from the anime industry's LN -> manga -> anime pipeline: you give platforms for indie content creators to make their own shit with a low investment threshold, most of them doing it for free on their own. 99.9% of them will fail. The 0.1% that succeed are worth looking at further, seeing whether there is anything there worth giving a real shot and an actual budget.
Don't try to force the next big thing, cast a hundred lines and let the next big thing come to you. Be content with investing in a successful new IP and making money off of something you do not 100% own yourselves, you greedy corporate fricks.
Animation of the last 15 years turned into mostly a small insular friends club. And they will tell you this openly, art school and the recruiters will tell you that the key to landing a job is networking their way. Which means become friends with them on social media. And they only really hire fellow like people from Tumblr in the early 00s and Twitter later on.
So all the major studio output has been the same early 00s anime inspired self insert crap by the same 20 or so people over and over and over again. And all of a sudden Star Vs, Molly McGee, Amphibia, and Owl House have super saiyan transformation fights. Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network are only interested in rebooting the same few shows over and over and over again.
Audiences want something different.
Animators want to actually make a show that is not a Ben 10 reboot, Loud House spinoff, Spongebob spinoff, or We Bear Bears reboot. And they do not want to beg for years to finally join the post Adventure Time/Gravity Falls social club just to land a medium income job....that only keeps them employed for 5 months at the most.
>late 90s/early 00s anime inspired self insert crap
There hasn't been any western show that was "inspired" by the likes of Cardcaptor Sakura, Ojamajo Doremi, Stg. Frog, Hamtaro, Princess Tutu, Mirumo De Pon, Kirby Right Back At Ya, Mermaid Melody Pichi Pichi Pitch and Twin Princess of Wonder Planet.
The most they did was refence Naruto and Bleach, in teams of anime it's just Sailor Moon (early 90s) and Dragon Ball Z (very late 80s and early 90s), and it was never self insert crap, just badly made jokes that insulted the Japanese even worse then the likes of Tokyo Jokio, You're A Sap Mr.Jap and Bugs Bunny Nips The Nips.
If they cared about the Japanese they would of been refencing Sazae-San, Chibi Maruko-Chan, Doraemon, Shin-Chan, Anpanman, The World Masterpiece Theater (really just Heidi and Anne of Green Gables), Rascal the Racoon and of course Hamtaro instead of Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball Z.
I blame Haruhi Suzumiya for anime's down fall, they lost and failed to lean anything from John K and his blog.
This is a lot of just fricking weird schizo rambling...
And no, these shows were made by people who just watched Toonami in 99-2002 and just stuck Dragonball, Sailor Moon, and Tenchi Muyo references into every single thing. Not the entire weeb laundry list you have here.
Only speaking on their anime shows here.
Dragon Ball = 1985
Dragon Ball Z =1989
Sailor Moon = 1992
Tenchi Muyo = 1995
Anon wanted late 90s/early 2000s anime, not late 80s and early 90s anime with one anime from the mid 1990s.
Anime can work, Tiny Toon Adventures and the original Animaniacs took it's lesions from the first 2 Lupin III series (but mostly Red Jacket episodes 145 and 155), The Castle Of Cagliostro, Heidi Girl Of The Alps, Anne of Green Gables, Tensai Bakabon (only the first 2 series), The Gutsy Frog, Sherlock Hound (only episodes 3, 4, 5, 9, 10 and 11) and Jarinko Chie (only the movie and first series).
The problem is that modern animators failed to take in the good stuff and only bother with Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball Z, you're lucky if they use One Piece as "inspiration" *cough*Turning Red where Mei ships herself with bootleg Monkey D. Luffy*cough*, research before you deal with anime and you will understand what works and doesn't.
....every one of those shows made up the Toonami lineup in 1999. The time which they hit mainstream normie status in the US. That's where that anon was comping from.
Personally I believe that what western animation needs to take away from anime more than anything else is not referencing a specific show, or referencing a specific art or writing style. The most important lesson for cartoons to re-learn is that you work needs some fricking PASSION in it.
Anime is full of shows that are deeply flawed in some way or another, but remain endearing and a fun watch because the people making it were having a blast doing it. You need someone in the room who honestly thinks that what you are making is the coolest shit ever, or the funniest thing they have ever seen, etc. Because that guy forms the heart of your project and drags everything else around him up towards his expectations.
Like the conversation above about the limitations of indie animation, and how its too hard or how its destined to fail for X Y Z reasons. Meanwhile, this youtube video was made by 2 gacha game fans in their spare time for free.
Is it perfect? No. But its *dripping* with style and that comes directly from the fact that the guy who made it honestly thought he was doing something super cool and was invested in making it look as awesome on the screen as he imagined it in his head. And I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw that same level of energy in cartoons.
Anon, the shows that person mentioned were all on Cartoon Network in the height of the Toonami afternoon days. Everything you mentioned were not. Outside of that, there is no point in displaying how much 90s era deep lore you have about when shows did and did not release for the first time in Japan because none of that is even remotely relevant. Drqagonball Z hit big mainstream status in the US in the late 90s to early 00s due to Cartoon Newtwork. Which is the time when modern animators of today were watching and influenced as kids.
This should not be that hard to grasp or need multiple people explaining it to you.
Your first mistake is actually attempting to argue with Famicom. Notice how absolutely no one else is doing that. He has his own special version of reality he cobbled together that makes zero sense to everyone else.
No Famicom, you're the one b***hing about things that are not even in this thread.
well, if people stop b***hing and whining about capitalism and shit....
then maybe the indie industry can take over the world and the wokeslop infection on the mainstream media.
and so, the west will not fall again and we can live in a world full of peace and hope again!
I just hope those commie bastardsw and the neo-nazi pigs don't ruin everything and future we want today.
I mean, probably? I know for certain that children's animation is going to bite it at the rate its going; Cocomelon and other brainrot cartoons have been eating the likes of PBS alive. CN is nearly dead, Nickelodeon is scraping by with the sponge and DTVA is the best one off but it isn't exactly thriving. The children's market looks like a lost cause, but I think that adult or teen shows could do well.
Cocomelon's viewership is out of India and the middle east, the US and Canada is too busy watching Game Sack, The 8-Bit Guy and LGR to give 2 shits about Cocomelon, plus the US and Canada DISPISES Cocomelon.
Why do you keep listing those 3 channels. Little kids aren't watching retro gaming channels.
Because kids and adults of all ages love those guys.
why do all zoomers assume everyone else know about whatever little gayass twink streamers they personally are into
they're thinking like
anyone older than them would. the problem is with tv pretty much dead, there's no re-runs anymore. there are reboots of movies and some shows, but younger kids are watching youtube and shit. youtube also can't show the actual piece of media, unless they are allowed to upload whatever it is. we started seeing this with younger zoomers.
i didn't need a video essay and a meme to get me to watch American Psycho. I saw that shit on HBO in the 2000s. Granted there were a lot of things i did seek out, but a lot of it i just happened to catch on tv. My parents gave me access to other media as well.
With Zoomers at least they have more of a sense of that. God knows what the case will be with gen Alpha and younger. Everything will be Youtube videos or short clips many of which that have no story.
They're far from the most popular channel. You keep bringing up these specific examples every single time because that's what you watch.
No, they're pretty huge, normies of all ages watch them.
Thats not what that anon meant, he was saying anime from the late early 2000s but Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon are much older then that.
Those guys are in their 30s and 40s and all of them are straight.
That is exactly what was meant, you are just being autistic.
No it wasn't, early 2000s anime is something like Hamtaro, Kirby Right Back At Ya and Mirumo De Pon, Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon are much older then that.
FRICKING SUZUMIYA!!!! If she never happen anime will still be a kids/family pass time.
Obviously old data, but burgers are far behind public media funding compared to other countries so our culture industry relies more and more on nepotism and cronyism
Everything in that image is mediocre or trash, even starbarians.
Anon, there is no future for animation
Not with thar attitude.
Knowing how the rest of the industry is going, yes.
You want to back some quality animation?
Go back Tales of Alethrion, it needs the money for Kickstartering S3.
Only problem with it is they keep putting the first video made as the third in chronological series.
https://www.youtube.com/@TalesofAlethrion
As you can see, he's a sperging schitzo.
Yes, but it was pretty much forced into being the only path because of just how shit it is to do any actual work in the big leagues
>TV networks are shambling corpses living off reruns and all have their own horror stories of how miserable they are to work in now
>Streaming still has no fricking idea how to handle animated series, has a mile long trail of dead or failed shows for either incompetence or mismanagement
Its called a cycle the indie grows strong and overwhelms the status quo due to a new thing they offer (in this case its more freedom in writing and new ways to support like merch and patreon) and starts to absorb them before becoming the new status quo that eventually goes corporate through a need to make a decent amount of cartoons instead of one episode every few months.
Of course this is likely the last cycle of power change that will happen as AI will likely be accepted as a standard by the next generation that has grown up with it and doesn't care about the repercussions of it
I really wish it is, the alternative is getting dozens of cheap Family Guy clones.
Are Indie Indians?
No.
Simply because there is no money in it. GLITCH and some others have been successful at setting up Patreons and selling merchandise, but that's somewhat limited in what you can achieve on a small scale. You can't guarantee merchandise sales and you can't keep paying everyone thru ad revenue. And the animations which can be produced as free fan content is inherently limited.
It'll be possible for an indie studio to become a professional one, possibly even not selling out and still making animation, but I wouldn't expect to see indie animation to really get any better than it currently is. It hasn't changed much over the last few decades, and no, a few animations getting hugely popular doesn't change that.