Depends how they're fighting, no?
If it's shooting ki blasts at eachother, then it's kinda needed I guess, but if it's boxing then there's other things to think about.
Probably not, no, it's more fun if it's a matter of creativity and ingenuity on the fighters part.
Having them discover their opponents style and technique and having to think up counters on the fly is way more fun than constant "actually I had some extra chi in the tank so I'm objectively stronger"
No. Unless what you're looking for is to make DBZ where the only important thing is how many super duper final transformation you can add to a character to make him stronger for your autistic fanbase to cream their pants.
The most interesting way is too look at is like real fighting. >"Styles make fights".
A lot of times in boxing and MMA fighters that don't seem so great can beat or even completely dominate champions because their style works really well against that specific person's style. But just because they beat the champion they don't magically have what it takes to beat everyone else.
Some styles may work better over others, everyone has strong and weak points. And when you introduce a character that doesn't seem like it has any weak points it will make them even more intimidating. Make systems or characters complex enough to make matchups more fun for people to imagine and look foward to. Rather than X beats Y just because he has 1800+ power points more than everyone else.
But most importantly just do whats best for the story this shit is not science.
You do realize that characters having different abilities than can beat each other and not just higher numbers is still power scaling? You're just describing bad powerscaling, not refuting the concept itself.
Give me an example of how you'd implement it because without context it still sounds kind of bad, the point is to not have a "X beats Y no contest" button. Like I guess this question is kind of the problem, it's seeking to break writing down into something really simplistic and then people unfamiliar with what you actually mean have to ask these questions.
The concept of characters being stronger than others or having different abilities that can beat each other are both power scaling.
Power scaling is basically comparing any character to another in terms of power or abilities. Which is what every story involving fighting does.
I see. And for your purposes, a crowbar is a power and striking from behind is an ability. You have successfully redefined the term into meaninglessness, congratulations.
Yes, you hit me from behind with the crowbar, thus I can scale how strong your hit with the crowbar and how it compares to myself.
That's powerscaling, moron. Are you being disingenous on purpose?
10 months ago
Anonymous
If I'm tall, does my power level go down when I'm standing in a narrow hallway, because my situational reach multiplier is reduced?
10 months ago
Anonymous
No he's right, if your definition of powerscaling is "well people can beat other people" then it's a completely useless term that helps describe nothing and would happen regardless of what you.
10 months ago
Anonymous
My defintion of power scaling is comparing characters in terms of their powers and abilities. Simple as.
10 months ago
Anonymous
And my point is, what's the actual use in that term if it's so general as to describe literally any fight down to something as simple as "guy beats another guy with a crowbar"
How are you overthinking a simple definition?
Powerscaling is the method of determining a character's power through comparing them to other characters in their series.
The logic behind powerscaling works much that of transitive relation. In which if A > B and B > C, then A > C.
So if Character A is stronger than Character B, and Character B is stronger than Character C, then logically, Character A is also stronger than Character C.
Another way powerscaling works is through attributing feats a character performs to other characters who are equal or greater than that character as well.
So if Character A is capable of lifting a car. And Character B has proven to be stronger than Character A, then it is safe to say that Character B can also lift a car.
Although a misuse or over extrapolation of powerscaling can lead to grossly inaccurate ratings, a logical and moderate use can be both helpful and essential to properly determining one's power.
As without powerscaling and going purely by feats, many characters would end up being "Unknown" in stats or be lowballed to absurd extents. Such as Whis being weaker than Piccolo going by pure feats. Monster Garou being weaker than Genos. Or characters who have consistently been said and shown to have power on par with Planet level beings be rated as Wall level.
While as a whole the legitimacy of powerscaling within a franchise should be analyzed on a case by case basis, the following is a general guide to what would and would not be accepted to scale off of in most situations.
Yeah that's what I thought before and anon said "well it's not just that", and ultimately I think that kind of fricking sucks. It makes for far less interesting fights if you're trying to assign a strict hierarchy. Even if you have "stronger" characters getting all up your ass about it still seems like a disservice. But there are people who eat that shit up, so if you're into it go for it I guess.
10 months ago
Anonymous
>what's the actual use in that term if it's so general as to describe literally any fight down to something as simple as "guy beats another guy with a crowbar"
The usage of the term is to describe comparing characters in terms of their powers and abilities. Even if one character is way weaker in attack power than another, but beats them thanks to strategy or hax, that still counts as powerscaling. You're very angry at a concept of power scaling that you've made up in your head but haven't taken the time to determine what it actually means.
10 months ago
Anonymous
You're telling me what it means, and the definition you give I find pointless.
10 months ago
Anonymous
I don't care if you find it pointless because it isn't pointless.
10 months ago
Anonymous
You're literally just describing "sometimes characters win or lose" it seems pointless to have an entirely different term describing GENERAL CONFLICT. So give me a reason as to why you actually would need this term, what actually makes it distinct from just saying "characters fight".
10 months ago
Anonymous
>You're literally just describing "sometimes characters win or lose" it seems pointless to have an entirely different term describing GENERAL CONFLICT.
No? It's about comparing characters and their abilities to each other. Whether or how they win or lose doesn't matter or whether they actually fight doesn't matter. It's showing how strong a character is compared to one another. Their destructive feats, and other abilities as well.
10 months ago
Anonymous
So it's just cataloging what they've already done? That sounds tedious and like it's just courting powerlevelgays.
10 months ago
Anonymous
>So it's just cataloging what they've already done?
Yes. That's literally what it is. It's doing that and comparing it to each other.
10 months ago
Anonymous
Why?
10 months ago
Anonymous
Because if you don't have good powerscaling, you break immersion and verisimilitude
10 months ago
Anonymous
People seem to get along fine without it.
10 months ago
Anonymous
Well most people don't have standards for good writing.
10 months ago
Anonymous
I'll take the entirety of western literature over your superhero wiki page or whatever, thanks.
10 months ago
Anonymous
I've never thought I'd see someone both pretentious and stupid enough to disregard the most basic of writing and narrative consistency (which includes power scaling) just to get back at a nice group of people who do nothing to affect your enjoyment of media. Amazing.
10 months ago
Anonymous
You're for real autistic, not Cinemaphile autistic, huh?
10 months ago
Anonymous
>No argument.
10 months ago
Anonymous
What you're describing has little to do with writing, that's just mostly pointless autism. It doesn't matter who *should* win in a fight in a piece of fiction, it's the writer's duty to make the narrative interesting and a good writer can effortlessly make any character they create win a fight against another because they are the ones that dictate their existence. This is why death battle bullshit is just the fictional equivalent of jerking off.
10 months ago
Anonymous
What's interesting is if the story makes sense and had internal consistency. Good power scaling is good consistency. And with that comes good writing. Therefore the only way to make a story interesting is if the plot makes sense. You're denigrating the most basic of writing consistency for no reason.
10 months ago
Anonymous
No he's right, autistically cataloging feats and power levels hardly makes for good stories in itself. It has nothing to do with consistency either, you can be consistent and not be way up your own anus about ki or if the character can deadlift the moon, good writing doesn't come from THAT.
10 months ago
Anonymous
>autistically cataloging feats and power levels hardly makes for good stories in itself.
That's a strawman. Having a basic idea of how strong your characters are and what they can do against other characters is what good writing should strive to do. Especially if it involves magic system and combat. Watch any shounen. And despite that, even if they do.... who cares? Shounen does this all the time and so does most stories about fighting.
10 months ago
Anonymous
And powerleveling in Shonen usually a point of fricking contention when it gets up its ass. People constantly complain about how DBZ devolved into most the cast being useless and fights being timewasting as Goku powers up to a new stupid ass form.
10 months ago
Anonymous
Power levels aren't power scaling. They're just a bad form of it.
10 months ago
Anonymous
and damn near every shonen has a popular hype moment where character A beats character B that derives a lot of its impact from character B being previously established as strong
10 months ago
Anonymous
The best fights, like in HxH and Jojo solidly avoid 'More aura/chakra/spirit energy/kai beats you' in encounters.
10 months ago
Anonymous
>Most people do not care about how "strong" a character is supposed to be, if the story is satisfying neither should you
Well I do, and I care about good writing. Something that you should care about as well.
It's just something you and yours do after reading fiction so that you can argue about it online. Why are you having so much trouble grasping that?
10 months ago
Anonymous
Only if you're chasing powercreep, it's not really an issue with a good writer who can write believable fights without needing to make it a game of "X can only beat Y"
10 months ago
Anonymous
I still want to know if my power level decreases when I'm in a narrow corridor.
10 months ago
Anonymous
You just have a weakness to narrow corridors Anon. It's not the weirdest form of kryptonite out there.
10 months ago
Anonymous
is that the opposite of agorophobia ?
10 months ago
Anonymous
Do you fear Goro king of the underworld?
10 months ago
Anonymous
i dont think so, should i ? is earthern realm in danger?
10 months ago
Anonymous
How are you overthinking a simple definition?
Powerscaling is the method of determining a character's power through comparing them to other characters in their series.
The logic behind powerscaling works much that of transitive relation. In which if A > B and B > C, then A > C.
So if Character A is stronger than Character B, and Character B is stronger than Character C, then logically, Character A is also stronger than Character C.
Another way powerscaling works is through attributing feats a character performs to other characters who are equal or greater than that character as well.
So if Character A is capable of lifting a car. And Character B has proven to be stronger than Character A, then it is safe to say that Character B can also lift a car.
Although a misuse or over extrapolation of powerscaling can lead to grossly inaccurate ratings, a logical and moderate use can be both helpful and essential to properly determining one's power.
As without powerscaling and going purely by feats, many characters would end up being "Unknown" in stats or be lowballed to absurd extents. Such as Whis being weaker than Piccolo going by pure feats. Monster Garou being weaker than Genos. Or characters who have consistently been said and shown to have power on par with Planet level beings be rated as Wall level.
While as a whole the legitimacy of powerscaling within a franchise should be analyzed on a case by case basis, the following is a general guide to what would and would not be accepted to scale off of in most situations.
10 months ago
Anonymous
>How are you overthinking a simple definition?
They haven't had the benefit of your years of experience of simple thinking.
10 months ago
Anonymous
>How are you overthinking a simple definition? >Powerscaling is the method of determining a character's power through comparing them to other characters in their series. >The logic behind powerscaling works much that of transitive relation. In which if A > B and B > C, then A > C. >So if Character A is stronger than Character B, and Character B is stronger than Character C, then logically, Character A is also stronger than Character C. >Another way powerscaling works is through attributing feats a character performs to other characters who are equal or greater than that character as well. >So if Character A is capable of lifting a car. And Character B has proven to be stronger than Character A, then it is safe to say that Character B can also lift a car. >Although a misuse or over extrapolation of powerscaling can lead to grossly inaccurate ratings, a logical and moderate use can be both helpful and essential to properly determining one's power. >As without powerscaling and going purely by feats, many characters would end up being "Unknown" in stats or be lowballed to absurd extents. Such as Whis being weaker than Piccolo going by pure feats. Monster Garou being weaker than Genos. Or characters who have consistently been said and shown to have power on par with Planet level beings be rated as Wall level. >While as a whole the legitimacy of powerscaling within a franchise should be analyzed on a case by case basis, the following is a general guide to what would and would not be accepted to scale off of in most situations.
10 months ago
Anonymous
This is pretty dumb because making fights entirely "How much dick semen do I have compared to this fighters dick semen" makes fights utterly unfeasible to even care about.
>
So if Character A is capable of lifting a car. And Character B has proven to be stronger than Character A, then it is safe to say that Character B can also lift a car.
What if character A can life a car and character B can punch thru steel, but A cannot punch thru steel and A cannot lift a car. Then they get beaten by C who kicks them to death.
Powerscaling goes into some absurd flattening of interpretation where the conclusion is 'okay Character C must be stronger than these two hence they can do these things they did better they've obviously never been shown."
10 months ago
Anonymous
*
So if Character A is capable of lifting a car. And Character B has proven to be stronger than Character A, then it is safe to say that Character B can also lift a car.
What if character A can lift a car and character B can punch thru steel, but A cannot punch thru steel and B cannot lift a car. Then they get beaten by C who kicks them to death but is shown pretty clearly to not be a type of character who can kick thru steel or lift cars.
10 months ago
Anonymous
Then it depends context. Maybe Character B can punch through steel because TECHNIQUE rather than raw strength. They can't lift a car because they're just good at punching.
Like that's the issue with Power Levels being used like this because the important thing is much more the context of these fights rather than trying to create some kind of hierarchy of power.
10 months ago
Anonymous
That's the issue in shonen.
In DBZ, Naruto, Bleach, HxH, and most series they have a kind of powerleveling system where some sort of energy gives them a baseline of super stats. For instance even if you took away 100% of Madara or Aizen's techniques and special unique powers, they'd obviously be able to physically overpower, outrun or beat any standard person, not through any technique but just 'Power Levels' that make them more or less superman.
In series like One Piece this still applies even without an energy system (I.e., Haki). There isn't a person alive that could beat Ussop or even Koby in a fight just from their stats and there's no explanation for it outside 'superpowered character'. The moment you start giving Stat boosts (I.e. powerlevels) with no context or explanation attached, you start divorcing your writing from having consistent dynamics and leave your world-building at the mercy of your roidraging. And giving it a context of 'energy stuff' isn't that much better.
10 months ago
Anonymous
Person alive from our earth I mean in a straight brawl.
10 months ago
Anonymous
powerscaing doesn't describe something that exist within the story, but a form of interpretation
So it's a completely meaningless term you wasted people's time with for years, congratulations. Truly peak comics and cartoons culture
The problem with you people is that you want to say meaningful things about media considered as a whole, but your experience of these works is so childish you have nothing to actually say, but you want to feel like you have something profoundly meaningful to observe about fiction.
How are you overthinking a simple definition?
Powerscaling is the method of determining a character's power through comparing them to other characters in their series.
The logic behind powerscaling works much that of transitive relation. In which if A > B and B > C, then A > C.
So if Character A is stronger than Character B, and Character B is stronger than Character C, then logically, Character A is also stronger than Character C.
Another way powerscaling works is through attributing feats a character performs to other characters who are equal or greater than that character as well.
So if Character A is capable of lifting a car. And Character B has proven to be stronger than Character A, then it is safe to say that Character B can also lift a car.
Although a misuse or over extrapolation of powerscaling can lead to grossly inaccurate ratings, a logical and moderate use can be both helpful and essential to properly determining one's power.
As without powerscaling and going purely by feats, many characters would end up being "Unknown" in stats or be lowballed to absurd extents. Such as Whis being weaker than Piccolo going by pure feats. Monster Garou being weaker than Genos. Or characters who have consistently been said and shown to have power on par with Planet level beings be rated as Wall level.
While as a whole the legitimacy of powerscaling within a franchise should be analyzed on a case by case basis, the following is a general guide to what would and would not be accepted to scale off of in most situations.
Death battle fools can't even grasp that there are many classic stories about weak characters beating strong characters because there's more to a fight than brute strength, good can triumph over evil because evil is a mere privation of the good, and so evil characters must lose to good characters.
It's not overthinking, you're just not thinking at all, your experience of even stuff like Dragon Ball Z must be embarrassingly drab
>It's not overthinking, you're just not thinking at all, your experience of even stuff like Dragon Ball Z must be embarrassingly drab
His thinking can be applied to non-physical strength, so his argument still works.
Give me an example of how you'd implement it because without context it still sounds kind of bad, the point is to not have a "X beats Y no contest" button. Like I guess this question is kind of the problem, it's seeking to break writing down into something really simplistic and then people unfamiliar with what you actually mean have to ask these questions.
What I mean is that this shit is not science, you gotta do what's best for the story. The important thing is to make things fun and not to worry about power levels or sticking to rules. They usually say that grapplers will win most matchups against striker but maybe the striker dude in this ocassion is creative enough to know how to turn things to his favor. Fighting is not math. Some matchups tend to go better against others but that's not always the case.
Maybe technically yeah everything is powerscalling (if you wanna be autistic about it) because I guess that's how real life works. But what I'm trying to say is that you should focus on the character and story and not on cornering yourself with power ladders and rules.
Most people do not care about how "strong" a character is supposed to be, if the story is satisfying neither should you. You must be autistic if you can't fathom anything beyond "x beats y" when in reality that shit is a gray area. It's like trying to render everything down into some gay little video game.
>Most people do not care about how "strong" a character is supposed to be, if the story is satisfying neither should you
Well I do, and I care about good writing. Something that you should care about as well.
10 months ago
Anonymous
>Well I do, and I care about good writing
Autism cataloging isn't good writing. It's not even good world-building.
No. Unless what you're looking for is to make DBZ where the only important thing is how many super duper final transformation you can add to a character to make him stronger for your autistic fanbase to cream their pants.
The most interesting way is too look at is like real fighting. >"Styles make fights".
A lot of times in boxing and MMA fighters that don't seem so great can beat or even completely dominate champions because their style works really well against that specific person's style. But just because they beat the champion they don't magically have what it takes to beat everyone else.
Some styles may work better over others, everyone has strong and weak points. And when you introduce a character that doesn't seem like it has any weak points it will make them even more intimidating. Make systems or characters complex enough to make matchups more fun for people to imagine and look foward to. Rather than X beats Y just because he has 1800+ power points more than everyone else.
But most importantly just do whats best for the story this shit is not science.
While I cringe on bringing this up, the best way to put it is surprisingly on the survival game the Isle Evrima.
Carnotaurus vs Ceratosaurus matchup differentiate substantially on a huge altitude of factors.
Is Carnotaurus well fed?
Does Ceratosaurus have his septic bite?
Did Carnotaurus ram Ceratosaurus?
Did Ceratosaurus charge bite the Carnotaurus?
Is Ceratosaurus around a body?
Does either dino have a pack that around them?
etc.
Each question there would change on who would win the fight despite the fact that stat wise Carnotaurus would fricking body a Ceratosaurus.
Just assign an arbitrary number to each of those factors and then jerk off furiously to the resulting spreadsheet. That's only the way to maintain immersion and verisimilitude.
Combat sports are still highly stratified, though, and the all-time greats (GSP, Jones, Silva, etc) were fighters who successfully defeated an extremely wide array of opponents and stayed on top for a long time.
If you wanted to make a series that truly reflected real fighting but with superpowers, it probably *would* incorporate some sort of "power level" stratification in addition to what you just described. It doesn't matter if you have the perfect style to counter a BJJ specialist if you're a fighter in a regional promotion; you're most likely still getting submitted all day by anyone half-decent in the UFC (probably even Bellator). But in fights between characters of very similar power levels, then the saying "styles make fights" would come into play.
No, it's to fighting what isekai is to fish out of water. Fitting that the vermin attracted to it are always the types you don't want be associated with.
>arguing over powerscaling being garbage
Anons should look up the concept of "being over" and how it relates to writing. Yeah straight up stomp fests are fricking stupid but that's more the fault of bad writing.
A better example of how to handle this sort of thing would be >Character A is much weaker than character B >Character A cannot win a direct confrontation with character B >How does character A approach the situation with said info
>How are you overthinking a simple definition? >Powerscaling is the method of determining a character's power through comparing them to other characters in their series. >The logic behind powerscaling works much that of transitive relation. In which if A > B and B > C, then A > C. >So if Character A is stronger than Character B, and Character B is stronger than Character C, then logically, Character A is also stronger than Character C. >Another way powerscaling works is through attributing feats a character performs to other characters who are equal or greater than that character as well. >So if Character A is capable of lifting a car. And Character B has proven to be stronger than Character A, then it is safe to say that Character B can also lift a car. >Although a misuse or over extrapolation of powerscaling can lead to grossly inaccurate ratings, a logical and moderate use can be both helpful and essential to properly determining one's power. >As without powerscaling and going purely by feats, many characters would end up being "Unknown" in stats or be lowballed to absurd extents. Such as Whis being weaker than Piccolo going by pure feats. Monster Garou being weaker than Genos. Or characters who have consistently been said and shown to have power on par with Planet level beings be rated as Wall level. >While as a whole the legitimacy of powerscaling within a franchise should be analyzed on a case by case basis, the following is a general guide to what would and would not be accepted to scale off of in most situations.
Wanting to make a bigger threat for bigger tension can be fine but it depends on buildup, visual scale, and time spent.
Personally I think its shit if your big bad is immediately replaced by a BIGGER BAD, especially if you spend 10x longer on the first big bad (remember when digimon beat the dark masters and the biggest haddest dark master shows up to end it all?)
Visually you wanna grow with the scale. GOOD EXAMPLE: Preacher comic from 2012 has cosmic beings bigger than planets and will often have these beings such a big threat our heroes mostly just hope they ignore them. BAD EXAMPLE: DBZ/DBGT/DBS talk about how some new form is even more powerful than ever but the destruction and movement is mostly the same OR WORSE they'll casually mention some minor character is definitely SS2 level now you just can't tell Krillin is that powerful because everyone else is at SSGSSB level.
So like everything in comics and manga, yes ____ CAN work as long as you visually do good and give well written reasons. Which maybe 4% who do it really do.
As a guy who's working on a project with fighting in it with other artist collabing with their own set of characters inside said project I think a good system for power scaling is needed
We have characters that are so tough and strong that the only feasible way to beat them as a lower level fighter would be to get creative and dirty and even that shouldn't be a guaranteed victory. No one is written to be unbeatable but not everyone is written to 'be beatable' if that makes sense. It shouldn't be easy to beat a guy who knows what he's doing and is bigger than you
If you mean like characters getting stronger infinitely because the writers aren't good enough to come up with other ways to drag the show on or draw in viewers, then no, frick that.
I hate infinite power scaling shit in shows, and I also hate when shows have such a huge range of power levels that one character can punch a hole in a planet with no issue yet punch some new villain and it does literally nothing.
I like combat-oriented shows where even the earliest abilities the characters get are still relevant 10 seasons later, and shows where powers and talents have limits.
Drives me up the wall when a show starts out with everyone being able to be shot by regular guns and get hurt, but then the MC in season 2 gets shot point blank to the eye and the bullet deflects, killing the gunman. >MC is weak, but a hero >villain has 19/20 stones of MagicDeathPowerDeath >MC finds missing MDPD stone after two seasons >it's the best one >fights villain >the fight is almost even, but the hero is losing gradually >villain decides this isn't fast enough, so he smashes his stones and is enchanted by the dust, becoming 10000x stronger, and the hero's strongest, self-sacrificing, mega-OP move doesn't even tickle the villain, despite vaporizing a 100mi radius, including the hero's MDPD stone >hero is broken >villain laughs and leaves to eat a mountain via darkness powers >gods and goddesses descend, bless the MC >MC gets super charged, fights villain on even terms >almost wins >villain laughs suddenly, pulling a gem from his armor >the 21st stone! >he eats it, becomes god, kills the other gods and goddesses >MC can't hurt the villain anymore >villain stomps hero, flies off into space to make his own slave planet and do other evil god things >hero is alive, spends two seasons searching for the uber-secret, mythological UltraLifePower crystals
If it wasn't obvious, my distaste of this is why I have a hard time watching any combat-oriented anime.
No. Characters can have different stats, specializations, and weaknesses. If someone manages to kill a dragon with a good shot to its weak point that doesnt mean that person is now capable of breathing fire and destroying a small building with a backhand smack. Context is also a big thing that often gets ignored as well
>Characters can have different stats, specializations, and weaknesses. If someone manages to kill a dragon with a good shot to its weak point that doesnt mean that person is now capable of breathing fire and destroying a small building with a backhand smack
You're still describing power scaling.
I don't know what that means and honestly I'm glad
are you esl? it's not like made up words it's pretty easy to conceptualize
Any character in any story can have their power measured.
It's a concept invented by and for autists, so you tell me.
Depends how they're fighting, no?
If it's shooting ki blasts at eachother, then it's kinda needed I guess, but if it's boxing then there's other things to think about.
Probably not, no, it's more fun if it's a matter of creativity and ingenuity on the fighters part.
Having them discover their opponents style and technique and having to think up counters on the fly is way more fun than constant "actually I had some extra chi in the tank so I'm objectively stronger"
You do realize that characters having different abilities than can beat each other and not just higher numbers is still power scaling? You're just describing bad powerscaling, not refuting the concept itself.
If I hit you over the back of the head with a crowbar is that powerscaling?
Yes you would be objectively stronger than the other anon due to your super crowbar powers. Why is this so hard to understand?
I'm not autistic, please be patient with me.
So everything is powerscalling?
The concept of characters being stronger than others or having different abilities that can beat each other are both power scaling.
Power scaling is basically comparing any character to another in terms of power or abilities. Which is what every story involving fighting does.
I see. And for your purposes, a crowbar is a power and striking from behind is an ability. You have successfully redefined the term into meaninglessness, congratulations.
Yes, you hit me from behind with the crowbar, thus I can scale how strong your hit with the crowbar and how it compares to myself.
That's powerscaling, moron. Are you being disingenous on purpose?
If I'm tall, does my power level go down when I'm standing in a narrow hallway, because my situational reach multiplier is reduced?
No he's right, if your definition of powerscaling is "well people can beat other people" then it's a completely useless term that helps describe nothing and would happen regardless of what you.
My defintion of power scaling is comparing characters in terms of their powers and abilities. Simple as.
And my point is, what's the actual use in that term if it's so general as to describe literally any fight down to something as simple as "guy beats another guy with a crowbar"
Yeah that's what I thought before and anon said "well it's not just that", and ultimately I think that kind of fricking sucks. It makes for far less interesting fights if you're trying to assign a strict hierarchy. Even if you have "stronger" characters getting all up your ass about it still seems like a disservice. But there are people who eat that shit up, so if you're into it go for it I guess.
>what's the actual use in that term if it's so general as to describe literally any fight down to something as simple as "guy beats another guy with a crowbar"
The usage of the term is to describe comparing characters in terms of their powers and abilities. Even if one character is way weaker in attack power than another, but beats them thanks to strategy or hax, that still counts as powerscaling. You're very angry at a concept of power scaling that you've made up in your head but haven't taken the time to determine what it actually means.
You're telling me what it means, and the definition you give I find pointless.
I don't care if you find it pointless because it isn't pointless.
You're literally just describing "sometimes characters win or lose" it seems pointless to have an entirely different term describing GENERAL CONFLICT. So give me a reason as to why you actually would need this term, what actually makes it distinct from just saying "characters fight".
>You're literally just describing "sometimes characters win or lose" it seems pointless to have an entirely different term describing GENERAL CONFLICT.
No? It's about comparing characters and their abilities to each other. Whether or how they win or lose doesn't matter or whether they actually fight doesn't matter. It's showing how strong a character is compared to one another. Their destructive feats, and other abilities as well.
So it's just cataloging what they've already done? That sounds tedious and like it's just courting powerlevelgays.
>So it's just cataloging what they've already done?
Yes. That's literally what it is. It's doing that and comparing it to each other.
Why?
Because if you don't have good powerscaling, you break immersion and verisimilitude
People seem to get along fine without it.
Well most people don't have standards for good writing.
I'll take the entirety of western literature over your superhero wiki page or whatever, thanks.
I've never thought I'd see someone both pretentious and stupid enough to disregard the most basic of writing and narrative consistency (which includes power scaling) just to get back at a nice group of people who do nothing to affect your enjoyment of media. Amazing.
>No argument.
What you're describing has little to do with writing, that's just mostly pointless autism. It doesn't matter who *should* win in a fight in a piece of fiction, it's the writer's duty to make the narrative interesting and a good writer can effortlessly make any character they create win a fight against another because they are the ones that dictate their existence. This is why death battle bullshit is just the fictional equivalent of jerking off.
What's interesting is if the story makes sense and had internal consistency. Good power scaling is good consistency. And with that comes good writing. Therefore the only way to make a story interesting is if the plot makes sense. You're denigrating the most basic of writing consistency for no reason.
No he's right, autistically cataloging feats and power levels hardly makes for good stories in itself. It has nothing to do with consistency either, you can be consistent and not be way up your own anus about ki or if the character can deadlift the moon, good writing doesn't come from THAT.
>autistically cataloging feats and power levels hardly makes for good stories in itself.
That's a strawman. Having a basic idea of how strong your characters are and what they can do against other characters is what good writing should strive to do. Especially if it involves magic system and combat. Watch any shounen. And despite that, even if they do.... who cares? Shounen does this all the time and so does most stories about fighting.
And powerleveling in Shonen usually a point of fricking contention when it gets up its ass. People constantly complain about how DBZ devolved into most the cast being useless and fights being timewasting as Goku powers up to a new stupid ass form.
Power levels aren't power scaling. They're just a bad form of it.
and damn near every shonen has a popular hype moment where character A beats character B that derives a lot of its impact from character B being previously established as strong
The best fights, like in HxH and Jojo solidly avoid 'More aura/chakra/spirit energy/kai beats you' in encounters.
It's just something you and yours do after reading fiction so that you can argue about it online. Why are you having so much trouble grasping that?
Only if you're chasing powercreep, it's not really an issue with a good writer who can write believable fights without needing to make it a game of "X can only beat Y"
I still want to know if my power level decreases when I'm in a narrow corridor.
You just have a weakness to narrow corridors Anon. It's not the weirdest form of kryptonite out there.
is that the opposite of agorophobia ?
Do you fear Goro king of the underworld?
i dont think so, should i ? is earthern realm in danger?
How are you overthinking a simple definition?
Powerscaling is the method of determining a character's power through comparing them to other characters in their series.
The logic behind powerscaling works much that of transitive relation. In which if A > B and B > C, then A > C.
So if Character A is stronger than Character B, and Character B is stronger than Character C, then logically, Character A is also stronger than Character C.
Another way powerscaling works is through attributing feats a character performs to other characters who are equal or greater than that character as well.
So if Character A is capable of lifting a car. And Character B has proven to be stronger than Character A, then it is safe to say that Character B can also lift a car.
Although a misuse or over extrapolation of powerscaling can lead to grossly inaccurate ratings, a logical and moderate use can be both helpful and essential to properly determining one's power.
As without powerscaling and going purely by feats, many characters would end up being "Unknown" in stats or be lowballed to absurd extents. Such as Whis being weaker than Piccolo going by pure feats. Monster Garou being weaker than Genos. Or characters who have consistently been said and shown to have power on par with Planet level beings be rated as Wall level.
While as a whole the legitimacy of powerscaling within a franchise should be analyzed on a case by case basis, the following is a general guide to what would and would not be accepted to scale off of in most situations.
>How are you overthinking a simple definition?
They haven't had the benefit of your years of experience of simple thinking.
>How are you overthinking a simple definition?
>Powerscaling is the method of determining a character's power through comparing them to other characters in their series.
>The logic behind powerscaling works much that of transitive relation. In which if A > B and B > C, then A > C.
>So if Character A is stronger than Character B, and Character B is stronger than Character C, then logically, Character A is also stronger than Character C.
>Another way powerscaling works is through attributing feats a character performs to other characters who are equal or greater than that character as well.
>So if Character A is capable of lifting a car. And Character B has proven to be stronger than Character A, then it is safe to say that Character B can also lift a car.
>Although a misuse or over extrapolation of powerscaling can lead to grossly inaccurate ratings, a logical and moderate use can be both helpful and essential to properly determining one's power.
>As without powerscaling and going purely by feats, many characters would end up being "Unknown" in stats or be lowballed to absurd extents. Such as Whis being weaker than Piccolo going by pure feats. Monster Garou being weaker than Genos. Or characters who have consistently been said and shown to have power on par with Planet level beings be rated as Wall level.
>While as a whole the legitimacy of powerscaling within a franchise should be analyzed on a case by case basis, the following is a general guide to what would and would not be accepted to scale off of in most situations.
This is pretty dumb because making fights entirely "How much dick semen do I have compared to this fighters dick semen" makes fights utterly unfeasible to even care about.
>
So if Character A is capable of lifting a car. And Character B has proven to be stronger than Character A, then it is safe to say that Character B can also lift a car.
What if character A can life a car and character B can punch thru steel, but A cannot punch thru steel and A cannot lift a car. Then they get beaten by C who kicks them to death.
Powerscaling goes into some absurd flattening of interpretation where the conclusion is 'okay Character C must be stronger than these two hence they can do these things they did better they've obviously never been shown."
*
So if Character A is capable of lifting a car. And Character B has proven to be stronger than Character A, then it is safe to say that Character B can also lift a car.
What if character A can lift a car and character B can punch thru steel, but A cannot punch thru steel and B cannot lift a car. Then they get beaten by C who kicks them to death but is shown pretty clearly to not be a type of character who can kick thru steel or lift cars.
Then it depends context. Maybe Character B can punch through steel because TECHNIQUE rather than raw strength. They can't lift a car because they're just good at punching.
Like that's the issue with Power Levels being used like this because the important thing is much more the context of these fights rather than trying to create some kind of hierarchy of power.
That's the issue in shonen.
In DBZ, Naruto, Bleach, HxH, and most series they have a kind of powerleveling system where some sort of energy gives them a baseline of super stats. For instance even if you took away 100% of Madara or Aizen's techniques and special unique powers, they'd obviously be able to physically overpower, outrun or beat any standard person, not through any technique but just 'Power Levels' that make them more or less superman.
In series like One Piece this still applies even without an energy system (I.e., Haki). There isn't a person alive that could beat Ussop or even Koby in a fight just from their stats and there's no explanation for it outside 'superpowered character'. The moment you start giving Stat boosts (I.e. powerlevels) with no context or explanation attached, you start divorcing your writing from having consistent dynamics and leave your world-building at the mercy of your roidraging. And giving it a context of 'energy stuff' isn't that much better.
Person alive from our earth I mean in a straight brawl.
powerscaing doesn't describe something that exist within the story, but a form of interpretation
So it's a completely meaningless term you wasted people's time with for years, congratulations. Truly peak comics and cartoons culture
The problem with you people is that you want to say meaningful things about media considered as a whole, but your experience of these works is so childish you have nothing to actually say, but you want to feel like you have something profoundly meaningful to observe about fiction.
Death battle fools can't even grasp that there are many classic stories about weak characters beating strong characters because there's more to a fight than brute strength, good can triumph over evil because evil is a mere privation of the good, and so evil characters must lose to good characters.
It's not overthinking, you're just not thinking at all, your experience of even stuff like Dragon Ball Z must be embarrassingly drab
>It's not overthinking, you're just not thinking at all, your experience of even stuff like Dragon Ball Z must be embarrassingly drab
His thinking can be applied to non-physical strength, so his argument still works.
Give me an example of how you'd implement it because without context it still sounds kind of bad, the point is to not have a "X beats Y no contest" button. Like I guess this question is kind of the problem, it's seeking to break writing down into something really simplistic and then people unfamiliar with what you actually mean have to ask these questions.
What I mean is that this shit is not science, you gotta do what's best for the story. The important thing is to make things fun and not to worry about power levels or sticking to rules. They usually say that grapplers will win most matchups against striker but maybe the striker dude in this ocassion is creative enough to know how to turn things to his favor. Fighting is not math. Some matchups tend to go better against others but that's not always the case.
Maybe technically yeah everything is powerscalling (if you wanna be autistic about it) because I guess that's how real life works. But what I'm trying to say is that you should focus on the character and story and not on cornering yourself with power ladders and rules.
>Stories should be emotionally satisfying rather than make sense.
I can't think of a worse trap to fall into as a writer.
If you're a good writer you can do both. But obsessing over power levels or systems wont help you in anyway.
Most people do not care about how "strong" a character is supposed to be, if the story is satisfying neither should you. You must be autistic if you can't fathom anything beyond "x beats y" when in reality that shit is a gray area. It's like trying to render everything down into some gay little video game.
>Most people do not care about how "strong" a character is supposed to be, if the story is satisfying neither should you
Well I do, and I care about good writing. Something that you should care about as well.
>Well I do, and I care about good writing
Autism cataloging isn't good writing. It's not even good world-building.
Isn't that the same as weight classes in professional fights? Just dressed up as power ki psychic magic levels so autists can fight about it?
No. Unless what you're looking for is to make DBZ where the only important thing is how many super duper final transformation you can add to a character to make him stronger for your autistic fanbase to cream their pants.
The most interesting way is too look at is like real fighting.
>"Styles make fights".
A lot of times in boxing and MMA fighters that don't seem so great can beat or even completely dominate champions because their style works really well against that specific person's style. But just because they beat the champion they don't magically have what it takes to beat everyone else.
Some styles may work better over others, everyone has strong and weak points. And when you introduce a character that doesn't seem like it has any weak points it will make them even more intimidating. Make systems or characters complex enough to make matchups more fun for people to imagine and look foward to. Rather than X beats Y just because he has 1800+ power points more than everyone else.
But most importantly just do whats best for the story this shit is not science.
While I cringe on bringing this up, the best way to put it is surprisingly on the survival game the Isle Evrima.
Carnotaurus vs Ceratosaurus matchup differentiate substantially on a huge altitude of factors.
Is Carnotaurus well fed?
Does Ceratosaurus have his septic bite?
Did Carnotaurus ram Ceratosaurus?
Did Ceratosaurus charge bite the Carnotaurus?
Is Ceratosaurus around a body?
Does either dino have a pack that around them?
etc.
Each question there would change on who would win the fight despite the fact that stat wise Carnotaurus would fricking body a Ceratosaurus.
Just assign an arbitrary number to each of those factors and then jerk off furiously to the resulting spreadsheet. That's only the way to maintain immersion and verisimilitude.
Combat sports are still highly stratified, though, and the all-time greats (GSP, Jones, Silva, etc) were fighters who successfully defeated an extremely wide array of opponents and stayed on top for a long time.
If you wanted to make a series that truly reflected real fighting but with superpowers, it probably *would* incorporate some sort of "power level" stratification in addition to what you just described. It doesn't matter if you have the perfect style to counter a BJJ specialist if you're a fighter in a regional promotion; you're most likely still getting submitted all day by anyone half-decent in the UFC (probably even Bellator). But in fights between characters of very similar power levels, then the saying "styles make fights" would come into play.
But that's not "real fighting" though, that's a sport with rules and regulations. You should not be writing an actual brawl like it's a sport.
yep, in a street brawls, there are no weight class to make competition more fair
MMA has a win condition, so over time it evolves into similar tactics employed.
Puck has no right being as hot as he is. God, Id tap that ass any time
No, it's to fighting what isekai is to fish out of water. Fitting that the vermin attracted to it are always the types you don't want be associated with.
The Golden Age is one of my favorite pieces of fiction of all time but God damn did I want to drop-kick post-Blackswordsman Puck.
why does puck go from twinkerbelle to weird alien monster thing every 10 pages
Comic relief magic
oh thats kinda gay, i thought he just chose to look human like rather than his true form being a weird little chubby gerbil with leaf wings
>arguing over powerscaling being garbage
Anons should look up the concept of "being over" and how it relates to writing. Yeah straight up stomp fests are fricking stupid but that's more the fault of bad writing.
A better example of how to handle this sort of thing would be
>Character A is much weaker than character B
>Character A cannot win a direct confrontation with character B
>How does character A approach the situation with said info
>everyone ITT
I look like this and I say this.
How'd you get that picture of me???
>Powerlevelhomosexualry is moronic
Oh say it ain't so!
Wanting to make a bigger threat for bigger tension can be fine but it depends on buildup, visual scale, and time spent.
Personally I think its shit if your big bad is immediately replaced by a BIGGER BAD, especially if you spend 10x longer on the first big bad (remember when digimon beat the dark masters and the biggest haddest dark master shows up to end it all?)
Visually you wanna grow with the scale. GOOD EXAMPLE: Preacher comic from 2012 has cosmic beings bigger than planets and will often have these beings such a big threat our heroes mostly just hope they ignore them. BAD EXAMPLE: DBZ/DBGT/DBS talk about how some new form is even more powerful than ever but the destruction and movement is mostly the same OR WORSE they'll casually mention some minor character is definitely SS2 level now you just can't tell Krillin is that powerful because everyone else is at SSGSSB level.
So like everything in comics and manga, yes ____ CAN work as long as you visually do good and give well written reasons. Which maybe 4% who do it really do.
There is nothing Cinemaphile about this thread
As a guy who's working on a project with fighting in it with other artist collabing with their own set of characters inside said project I think a good system for power scaling is needed
We have characters that are so tough and strong that the only feasible way to beat them as a lower level fighter would be to get creative and dirty and even that shouldn't be a guaranteed victory. No one is written to be unbeatable but not everyone is written to 'be beatable' if that makes sense. It shouldn't be easy to beat a guy who knows what he's doing and is bigger than you
If you mean like characters getting stronger infinitely because the writers aren't good enough to come up with other ways to drag the show on or draw in viewers, then no, frick that.
I hate infinite power scaling shit in shows, and I also hate when shows have such a huge range of power levels that one character can punch a hole in a planet with no issue yet punch some new villain and it does literally nothing.
I like combat-oriented shows where even the earliest abilities the characters get are still relevant 10 seasons later, and shows where powers and talents have limits.
Drives me up the wall when a show starts out with everyone being able to be shot by regular guns and get hurt, but then the MC in season 2 gets shot point blank to the eye and the bullet deflects, killing the gunman.
>MC is weak, but a hero
>villain has 19/20 stones of MagicDeathPowerDeath
>MC finds missing MDPD stone after two seasons
>it's the best one
>fights villain
>the fight is almost even, but the hero is losing gradually
>villain decides this isn't fast enough, so he smashes his stones and is enchanted by the dust, becoming 10000x stronger, and the hero's strongest, self-sacrificing, mega-OP move doesn't even tickle the villain, despite vaporizing a 100mi radius, including the hero's MDPD stone
>hero is broken
>villain laughs and leaves to eat a mountain via darkness powers
>gods and goddesses descend, bless the MC
>MC gets super charged, fights villain on even terms
>almost wins
>villain laughs suddenly, pulling a gem from his armor
>the 21st stone!
>he eats it, becomes god, kills the other gods and goddesses
>MC can't hurt the villain anymore
>villain stomps hero, flies off into space to make his own slave planet and do other evil god things
>hero is alive, spends two seasons searching for the uber-secret, mythological UltraLifePower crystals
If it wasn't obvious, my distaste of this is why I have a hard time watching any combat-oriented anime.
There are plenty of action anime there are nothing like that. You are just watching children stuff.
No. Characters can have different stats, specializations, and weaknesses. If someone manages to kill a dragon with a good shot to its weak point that doesnt mean that person is now capable of breathing fire and destroying a small building with a backhand smack. Context is also a big thing that often gets ignored as well
>Characters can have different stats, specializations, and weaknesses. If someone manages to kill a dragon with a good shot to its weak point that doesnt mean that person is now capable of breathing fire and destroying a small building with a backhand smack
You're still describing power scaling.
You're for real autistic, not Cinemaphile autistic, huh?
>anime pic
>gayest subject imaginable
you must be 18 to post on this website
No, obviously the correct way to portray power and combat ability is through feats. Got any mountains in the distance that need their tops lopped off?
OHNONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO, POWERSCALEBROS?!
That's easy. Rock is most powerful, scissors are for noobs, paper is for tryhards.
Yes
Puck>>>>>>>>nuts
>the moon is smaller than the Statue of Liberty
I never knew this
Anyone here read WORM by chance?
How well does it implement stragetic Jojo-styled fights like everyone says it does?
OP I'm reporting you for that picture of a naked little fairy shota
Unless the story is a limited run, power scaling should be avoided. Only upgrade the powers sparingly, or by use is a big cost.
No. Mainly because at certain point you can ass pull anything or be forced to because you lost track of it.