Is The Dark Knight Returns really second place to Watchmen as far as superhero comics go? How many of you would put other comics like Daredevil: Born Again or Miracleman ahead of it?
The think for me is that something like Miracleman loses points because it doesn't keep a single consistent art team, and it was completed over the course of almost a decade despite only being 16 issues, so its substance changed. Daredevil loses points because it's an arc, not exactly self contained. On the other hand, you've got very powerful moment in either of them, and art that, when good, is excellent.
Watchmen is an easy #1, but The Dark Knight Returns, while also thoughtfully produced and tremendously executed, may not be the most deserving of 2nd place. If it is a solid 2nd, what's 3rd place? What are the top 10?
You tell me.
Let's consider other comics, say Promethea, Claremont X-Men, and All-Star Superman.
Promethea, with the great J.H. Williams III, is breathtaking. But it is also not as economic in its storytelling as TDKR or Watchmen. It's also largely didactic, and the portions of photocomics and the painted bits near the end are pretty huge eyesores.
Claremont's X-Men, while seminal, is a lot of bloat and without a single consistent art team.
All-Star Superman is great, but there's a little more looseness with the logic, though it can be argued that this is in keeping with the Silver Age-ness of it. While taking advantage of the widescreen format of comics at the time, it didn't also need to go digital with the inks and colors.
There's Astro City, though the quality of the stories is a bit uneven, and the art isn't at full throttle.
Starman by James Robinson is also spotty, and has the added downside of not keeping a single consistent art team.
In its construction, all that it explores, it's storytelling quality, the way it's not only self-contained but somewhat recursive and even microcosmic of the genre as a whole, the characters, the sheer entertainment and high rereadability, it's the best contender for the greatest superhero comic of all time. Moore went balls out on this one, and so did Gibbons.
If you have a better contender, I'm all eyes, though I may black out soon.
Supreme: Story of the Year is also meta as frick but it's actually fun and optimistic instead of being a relentless bummer. And Swamp Thing is better even than that.
Watchman has great art and is important in the history of comics, but it's barely a fricking superhero comic at all, and it's somewhat to blame for the braindead, surface level deconstruction that writers commit constantly at this point. It isn't the adulthood of comics, it's comics awkward teenage years, after they've read Camus and desperately want to be taken seriously.
I wish people would stop trying to adapt it. You can make media inspired by it though or give it a shout out though.
Wait the motion comic is fine.
I wouldn't even put either TDK or Watchmen in my top five of just limited to DC collected editions/OGN.
The one point being made here is that we can sometimes have collections/OGNs with a really strong story and/or concept OR with really great art. In some cases, the script and story-telling does inform the art but Tom King and Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow is a prime example of someone who, irrespective of whatever verbiage he wrote on his scripts, even simply the finished line art, absent the color work, vastly over achieved over whatever ideas and concept King had as a story-teller.
Watchmen isn't even the best thing Moore has written, let alone the best comic.
I like Planetary. It's like a love letter to the medium, and that's way more interesting than the cynical deconstructionist nonsense the casuals like to circle-jerk.
I loved it too the first time I read it, but I've gone back to read some issues and I've been disappointed by them. The widescreen plus decompression really hurts it. I don't know if I'd like it now.
>cynical deconstructionist nonsense
I hope your not referring to the ones in the OP, because that would tear an butthole into your argument, and I may try to deepdick it.
What's yours?
Not for me.
I don't have much conscious time left. Keep it alive for me. Thanks.
Night night.
Good night sweet prince.
Just sticking to Alan Moore works, Miracleman is better than Watchmen. And Swamp Thing is better than both of them.
I've already gone over Miracleman and its unevenness, and Swamp Thing has similar issues. It also has an inconsistent art team and it starts by Moore taking over for Pasko in volume 2, issue 20. Volume 2, issue 20 is an unfortunate place to start. Then there's the inclusion of the Crisis event. It may be one of the greatest runs, but I wouldn't put it above Watchmen.
Not sure that Fables counts.
Earth X, Marvels, and Kingdom Come have neat ideas and interesting approaches, but not much else. I don't remember being too enthralled by them.
I have to finish Multiversity.
Supreme unfortunately has the portions with extreme 90s art. That brings it down a lot.
Watchmen leans hard on its science fiction inspirations, having a lot of Vonnegut in its DNA, which I think is part of the reason why it's such a strong work. The superheroics in it are well explored too, though it's largely vigilantism.
Why do you like watching men so much? It's kind of gay.
>Not sure that Fables counts.
Yeah, i can see that it isnt a cape comic but for me it is very superhero.
>Earth X, Marvels, and Kingdom Come have neat ideas and interesting approaches, but not much else.
I think there is more to it. But can understand when someone is not that enthusiastic.
Kinda hard to tell. There are several comics that could compete for the follow up.
Fables till the emperors defeat.
EarthX Trilogy
Marvels
Kingdom Come
Multiversity
But some anons have valid criticism that i can understand why theses comics are not in that spot.
None of these belong in the conversation except maybe Multiversity
Than you didnt read half of it.
Nta but stop embarassing yourself. Trying to put Kingdom Come on the same level as Watchmen is moronic. There are plenty of cape comics that hover around that level but they sure as hell aren't Kingdom Come, Astro City, Marvels, Earth X.
Kingdom Come is near. I wouldnt say on the same level. But the art and eastereggs plus the movie like story make it similar.
>Kingdom Come
The storytelling is good. The story is well paced and the characters well defined. But i agree that the action is more static. It feels too much biblical.
>Marvels
Yeah, it is much more different.
>EarthX
It isnt mediocre, it is very Kirby-sque. It really tries to put the Marvel Universe in a bigger cosmology. And it is well written till the 3rd part. Alex Ross cant endings.
>a) it's not a superhero comic
I think it is but i agree that it is kinda a yes and no at the same time.
>b) you can't discount the back half just because it's not as good as the first.
Ok, good point. But i thought thats ok, because it is an ongoing long series.
everyone interested in comics has read those comics, they're in every library in the country. Kingdom Come is really only notable for the art, and frankly Alex Ross paintings, while great for the splash pages, are kind of shit for actual storytelling and action sequences.
Marvels is better in this regard simply because Busiek is a much better writer than Waid, and he played to Ross's strength, relegating any potential action sequences to those splash pages while keeping the large majority of the story to ordinary people
Earth X is an entirely mediocre comic that is ONLY remembered because of the Alex Ross covers. Universe and Paradise X are outright not worth reading.
Fables is good but a) it's not a superhero comic and b) you can't discount the back half just because it's not as good as the first.
Busiek is a far better writer than Waid but Marvels isn't all that much better than Kingdom Come, it's trying to mythicize these characters the company has built up as "relatable, down to earth, petty, human" through decades. It's a really lame concept that isn't saved by its execution. At least it's not whiny like KC.
I think a random person mythologizing Marvel heroes is a perfectly acceptable take, especially in the early 90s. We as readers have seen plenty of the superheroes' personal lives and seen them be relatable, human, etc, but what would they look like to an actual regular ol human within the Marvel Universe with little interaction with the superhero world beyond "background fodder"?
And it's not like that's an uncommon plot in Marvel, Miller himself did something in a similar vein in his first Daredevil run (although on a considerably smaller scale).
Fables peaked with Blue going back to the homelands.
That arc was great. Imo it was at least readable through north dying but it lost steam fast after Gepetto was deposed. Still remember running to the store after school to see what Bigby and Snow were up to
I always see these discussions about "the best cape comics" and they are pretty boring since we already know most of the answers. Why don't have discussions arguing about the best fantasy comics, or the best slice of life comics, or the best comedy comics? It would lend to much more interesting discussion.
I think the problem with the consensus on the best superhero comics is that it's mostly bullshit. I'd take random old Marvel comics over Watchmen or anything Morrison ever did any day.
>Why don't have discussions arguing about the best fantasy comics,
for me it is the quest for the time bird
antideconstructiongays need not reply, this was obviously sincere and worked fantastically pun intended
amazing original world, cool flip of tropes, emotional and exciting, tremendous art
We don't know the answers. I certainly don't. It's a big genre.
>Why don't have discussions arguing about the best fantasy comics, or the best slice of life comics, or the best comedy comics?
We can try it another time, or you make a thread right now. Besides, I think good options are scarce for some of those.
V for Vendetta has some of the same problems as Miracleman.
Ronin does not count and is not better.
Year One is a strong contender to be in the top 10, but it's not a better one than TDKR.
I've read a number of random old Marvel comics and most of them were surprisingly dull and poorly executed. Same with old DC.
Is better same goes for V for Vendetta, Ronin and Year One.
watchmen is autistically and meticulously built and structured but I like tdkr more because of the amazing art and the natural flow it has
miller probably worked his ass off but it seems so effortless and instinctual
he has this incredible knack
you just melt in the story
maybe ronin should be considered
as a side note I love kraven's last hunt and I love dematteis and buscema collabs on spider-man as far as regular issues go
I feel that both have those strengths.
What do you suggest?
Sandman is for too uneven to consider for first place. I don't know that I'd place it in the top 10.
I'd also place Swamp Thing above it despite the numbering.
>for too
far too
NTA. I found Sandman sprawling in the best possible way but I understand your perspective as well. Swamp Thing is slightly under it for me because of the numbering but I think my top 5 overall is something like
Hellboy
Sandman
Swamp Thing
TDKR
Miracleman
With Astro City, Daredevil, Watchmen, LoEG, and all star superman just below.
Watchmen is good but it is nowhere near the number one cape comic, too full of itself to be so.
care to give an alternative?
He'll slip in some absolutely rancid examples. They always do.
This is the standard opinion, yes.
If you open for our points of view, anything could be first or second.
1 sandman
2 saga of the swamp thing
I'm not sure but I really just don't give a shit about Watchmen. I get how important it is but I still just don't care. Frank's work at least has some soul to what he is doing. About the only thing I enjoy is how meticulous Gibbons drew this book. Again, not taking away the importance but I am over it.
To give sole credit to Gibbons for the art takes away from how autistically detailed Moore's scripts were and how Gibbons has said multiple times he was basically just following the script. Miller is a titan of the industry and one of the absolute masters of the craft, but Watchmen is just as much a testament to Moore's superb talents as a writer as TDKR is to Miller's.
Moore has some of the most sterile writing I have ever read. He is a legend in the industry and I just don't care for him. I realize i am in the minority but good in him for giving Gibbons a script he could sink his teeth into.
You are simply wrong.
The importance is not really something I'm taking into consideration. Maybe a little bit, but not a major factor.
They're both full of soul as far as I'm concerned.
I'm quite fond of astro city. Miracleman is great obviously. Does Hellboy count as a "superhero comic"? Not really I suppose but Hellboy is my favorite.
Hellboy counts. It's just shy of Hellboy donning spandex, but most everything is there for it to be considered a superhero work.
It depends on what you're looking for:
Moore is a master of deconstruction. Watchmen, Miracle Man, and Swamp Thing, are all excellent deconstructions of characters, and their respective genres.
Frank Miller is excellent for putting an mature spin on ideas, and experimenting with comics:
Daredevil, Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, Ronin, 300, Sin City. People forget that Miller is an experimental writer and artist, because his success is so great.
Jack Kirby is the King of world building: Fantastic Four, Thor, The Fourth World, Kamandi even some of his lesser known works like Devil Dinosaur, and 2001: A Space Odyssey have some great world building.
Chris Claremont was the best at long-form Soap-Opera telling. All his years on the X-Books are still considered the best the industry ever produced.
If you want constantly comedic stories with heart, Peter David is the most consistent in comics history. His work on Hulk, Aquaman, X-Factor, Fallen Angel, and pretty much anything else he touches is gold. He's probably the main influence of Joss Whedon's style.
As for as influence of the medium and pushing its limits, Will Eisner is the top performer. His work on the Spirit was decades ahead of its time. This work was used by the US Military for training manuals, and he basically started the graphic novel format as we know it today, with 'A Contract With God'.
>Moore is a master of deconstruction
Bit Dismissive. Tom Strong and his two Superman comics are all played straight.
>deconstruction
None of those comics are deconstructions according to Jacques Derrida.
My War Gone By (This isn't from that comic I just thought it was funny).
TDKR isn't even the best Batman comic written by Miller, Year One works significantly better as a definitive Batman story.
Most "greatest comics ever" are just people blindly parroting that opinion because it was on a recommended reading list. There are so many fricking comics out there it's insane and nobody reads them. Moat comic "fans" don't read comics.
I read as much as I can, but I totally agree with you. Lots of gems get overlooked because the market has and will continue to be saturated. It's so confusing that the average person will look up what to read and be directed to a Reddit post's recommendation or some CBR Top 15 list, God forbid. Doesn't help that the majority of people who want to engage in this stupid "which superhero comic book is better" debate are some of the least pleasant people to speak to.
In summation: OP is a homosexual.
I would put Transmetropolitan, Strangers in Paradise, Y: The Last Man, and The Adventures of Luther Arkwright above Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns as works of art.
I would put Long Halloween and All-Star Superman above Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns in terms of DC comics.
Overall I'm a huge Marvelgay and I enjoy many Marvel comics more than I'm officially allowed to on Cinemaphile, including comics from the 2000s, 2010s, and 2020s.
>Long Halloween
ex machina is better than your suggestions and still not anywhere close to watchmen or tdkr
>Transmetropolitan, Strangers in Paradise, Y: The Last Man
I wouldn't put these in my top 100. Strangers in Paradise has the best art of the three, but it's a clusterfrick in a different way. Besides, they're not superhero comics.
>The Adventures of Luther Arkwright
I have a soft spot for this one, but again, not superhero.