From a news story today about all the boomers who found out their biological dad was a priest >Crucially, a 25-year study of 1,500 Catholic priests found less than half the priests in the United States attempt celibacy — which experts say is a major factor fuelling so-called reproductive abuse. The study’s author, ex-priest Richard Sipe, argued it creates a culture of secrecy that tolerates and even protects paedophiles — though he estimated that four times as many priests involve themselves sexually with women than with children.
That's false.
Celibacy happens because priests need to dedicate their entire lives and leave everything else to follow Christ.
The idea that celibacy happens because of material reasons is just Marxist theory shit by lazy, intellectually challenged Marxists who didn't study history.
Would also like to mention that in China there were eunuchs who couldn't get sons for obvious reasons who had no problem accumulating wealth, being corrupt and stealing from the dynasty. As it turns out, people have siblings, cousins and nephews too.
>Celibacy happens because priests need to dedicate their entire lives and leave everything else to follow Christ.
That's the ideal to strive towards but in practical organization it's different, even Paul says that even Bishops can have up to one wife if they can't contain the fire within.
All apostolic Churches besides Catholic have married clergy.
I'm with you, personally, but it's not my decision. If they're going to insist on that though, they need to do a better job of walking through potential priests if this is their actual vocation. A lot didn't it seemed, and then struggle.
Priestly celibacy is part of the "internal discipline" of the Church and the Church could change it if it wanted to.
But the reason why it happens is not the materialistic conspiracy theory that it was to let the Church accumulate more wealth (which as I mentioned wouldn't even work).
And I think this is a good policy by the Church (for the reasons I mentioned) regardless of what the others do (and as far as I know Orthodox Bishops should be "never married" and someone can't marry after being ordained as an Orthodox).
>and as far as I know Orthodox Bishops should be "never married" and someone can't marry after being ordained as an Orthodox).
You are correct.
But on the other hand even Peter, Prince of the Apostles, had a wife and daughter.
Point is that the internal discipline should be an ideal but following Paul to have a wife is completely fine as well. A lot of the laity agree.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Peter didn't live a married life after becoming an apostle...
The discipline is a good one and should be Church policy. The problem the Church faced is not due to celibacy.
No, it's actually because a bunch of priests in the middle ages were handing off their property to their children, basically making the position hereditary. It got formally outlawed sometime in the 12th century.
That's just a meme, really. Corrupt clergy without children can benefit their nephews, siblings, etc. Or if they are really corrupt they just have bastard children and benefit them.
Celibacy was meant to make the priests more monk-like and devoted to their vocation only. Priestly celibacy is a good thing from a spiritual point of view, but it is completely ineffectual to corruption.
imagine the church having to financially support the wives and children of the priests as well as priests themselves. its about money, not because theyre so dedicated to jesus
youre naive if you think the church would be willing the shell out the money for that, priests are there to spread the word, theyre the face of the church, letting them have kids and wives means less money in the church coffers=less influence, while also dividing the priests time, energy and spirit, i think most priests would put their family first, something tangible and earthly, it would mean an exodus
9 months ago
Anonymous
Wealth was not the problem. You are taking too much of a Marxist view, anon.
The Church always had programs for orphans and widows, since the beginning. It is not a public corporation with shareholders and a profit maximization thing.
If anything, some protestant churches with married clergy do act as a corporation with shareholders and they have no problems with the family of their clergy.
>dividing the priests time, energy and spirit, i think most priests would put their family first,
Is the problem.
I remember the interview of a priest about this and he mentioned he doesn't really have tons of free time but if he had a wife and kids he would likely have to neglect his work with the Church.
>wouldn't be expensive.
it would be, considering a large chunk of church money goes to child abuse victims nowadays, you think the church aint penny pinching asf rn?
9 months ago
Anonymous
There are many individual churches, some have money problems, some are very wealthy. Each Bishop is the head of its own Church.
But that anon is talking about the medieval Church which didn't really have money problems.
Filtered. It's the only thing that makes them credible. If they can't overcome cooming they are just coping pathetic christcucks. If they overcome it that's a big win in my book. Makes me have more respect for them. Most people just do everything in life for the end purpose of sex even though they'll never admit it. Priests are closest to Niezches uberman than anyone else because they're slaves to pussy sex and their hands. Nofap and no sex means you have extreme self control which is based. If I had a serious job for someone to do I wouldn't want them fricking off even on their personal time. Either 100% devotion or nothing at all.
The rules of celibacy were instituted because Bishops kept bequeathing their lands to their children, anon. There is zero theological backing, which is why it only cane about over a thousand years after Yeshua's death.
Anon, those are internal discipline rules. The Church can create its own rules for priests. And Bishops have siblings, nephews and even illegitimate children. If they want to give away Church property to their family, they will.
Filtered. It's the only thing that makes them credible. If they can't overcome cooming they are just coping pathetic christcucks. If they overcome it that's a big win in my book. Makes me have more respect for them. Most people just do everything in life for the end purpose of sex even though they'll never admit it. Priests are closest to Niezches uberman than anyone else because they're slaves to pussy sex and their hands. Nofap and no sex means you have extreme self control which is based. If I had a serious job for someone to do I wouldn't want them fricking off even on their personal time. Either 100% devotion or nothing at all.
>The only way these guys can show their devotion to Yahweh is to get 0 pussy their entire life
I'm sure they could have thought of something else. Why not just do the Nazarite vow?
I mean, frick. The whole point of the Pope is he's supposed to be like OT Nazarites
I'm not original anon you responded to. I was just pointing out that it's a dumb vow.
Samson was allowed to have as much sex as he wanted and keep his super strengrh, but modern priests aren't allowed to get laid?
9 months ago
Anonymous
>get laid
Anon, do you think priests should have casual sex?
9 months ago
Anonymous
Everyone was doing it in the OT and Yahweh only got selectively pissed.
I just don't get why they need to make a special vow to be closer with Yahweh when the instruction manual already has easier guidelines on how to do this >don't eat meat >don't drink alcohol >don't cut your hair
What was wrong with that? Those first 2 are good for you anyways
9 months ago
Anonymous
I repeat the question: you think priests should have casual sex?
And I don't think you have a good understanding of how Christians view the Old Testament.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Yes. There's nothing in the Bible saying they shouldn't. Why make up a new special rule when the Bible already has clear instructions on what they're trying to do
And OT is still a mandatory doctrine attached to their faith. You can't really disown it
9 months ago
Anonymous
>There's nothing in the Bible saying they shouldn't
Yes, there is. And the Bible doesn't contain all of Christian teaching.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Where exactly did it say God's chosen ones weren't allowed to have sex? And, yes. I'm familiar with books like Gospel of Thomas and Pistis Sophia
9 months ago
Anonymous
They were not allowed to have sex out of marriage... There are plenty of mentions against fornication.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Back in Bibles times, sex meant you were married.
There's are plenty of instances where Yahweh doesn't care about fornication
9 months ago
Anonymous
The Old Testament was God slowly civilizing an ancient people to make them ready to receive the Messias. But it didn't contain all of the revelation.
>Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
>“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
>“Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
>Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
This is basic Christianity. We don't follow the Old Testament.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>We don't follow the Old Testament.
Yes you do. You're just a israeli heresy.
Why haven't they given OT stories the same treatment as Passion?
A live action movie where Samson kills 1000 people or the life of Elijah would be cool. Jesus basically plagiarized Elijah and Elisha anyways
Elijah was just a prophet. No amount of teachings or wisdom will ever help you reach eternity or stand in the presence of God. Only the blood of Christ.
Jesus's story is heavily lifted from Elijah and Elisha >Copies most of Elijah's miracles >Jesus is baptized where Elijah is raptured and Elisha starts his ministry >Betrayed for money >Elisha's corpse is able to bring people back to life
I'm forgetting some stuff, but it's definitely not coincidence
Most modern seminaries have coped with the slow death of church attendance by overcompensating in the education department, I guess since they realise they can't expect people to mindlessly turn up anymore. Plus, since there's no real advantage to becoming a priest these days compared to several decades ago, all you get are the bad ones, or the fanatics and geniuses.
>God predetermined everything in your life >is the one judging you after you die >Somehow you have free will in all this
9 months ago
Anonymous
>he doesn't believe in free will
what is this calvinist nonsense
9 months ago
Anonymous
>Unseen entity pulling all the strings in your life >Meticulously controls everything in the universe >Punishes you for not doing what he wants, sometimes forever which is unjust
But, yeah. Free will
9 months ago
Anonymous
not my problem if you're too moronic to understand free will
God knows what's going to happen which means that everything is already planned out. It's called determinism.
the future hasn't happened yet and you can amend your ways
determinism is an excuse to keep on committing sin
>you're going to hell because a talking snake convinced your ancestor to eat an apple so he could know right from wrong
Shut the frick up b***h.
the limbo of the children is empty
9 months ago
Anonymous
Your brain is empty.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>the future hasn't happened yet and you can amend your ways >determinism is an excuse to keep on committing sin
You don't have free will if god knows what's going to happen. If he does know what's going to happen that means the universe is deterministic. You can't have system that's both ways.
9 months ago
Anonymous
God knows every future that can happen, but they haven't happened yet
you have some control over your own future, and denying this means you're either moronic or coping because you're a bad person and don't want to admit it
9 months ago
Anonymous
>God knows every future that can happen, but they haven't happened yet
1. Your god doesn't exist.
2. Abrahmic lore is barbaric.
3. If you know something is going to happen then it's not muh multiverse.
9 months ago
Anonymous
you're really thick
9 months ago
Anonymous
God knows what's going to happen which means that everything is already planned out. It's called determinism.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>Unseen entity pulling all the strings in your life >Meticulously controls everything in the universe >Punishes you for not doing what he wants, sometimes forever which is unjust
But, yeah. Free will
God doesn't punish you.
He gives us the decision of following Him or not. And that's it. The only problem is that separating yourself from God is extremely bad for yourself.
First of all your god doesn't exist and if he didn't he would be psychotic masochist that signs off on child murder. My god is cool and exists.
9 months ago
Anonymous
You don't even know "my" God, but you say yours is cooler. What makes your God so cool?
From
What's his name?
9 months ago
Anonymous
Your god doesn't exist. How does that make you feel abrahimic? You've doing that to other religions forever.
9 months ago
Anonymous
I'm a Gnostic Pagan and also a Monotheist.
9 months ago
Anonymous
I don't proselytize because that would be gay. You're either a shit person or you're not.
9 months ago
Anonymous
I'm a terrible person. Yes, proselytizing is against The Way.
9 months ago
Anonymous
?t=73
:^)
9 months ago
Anonymous
>First of all your god doesn't exist and if he didn't he would be psychotic masochist that signs off on child murder.
Base- >My god is cool and exists.
Cringe, you ruined it.
Catholicism itself is kino.
what's the film in the middle?
From a news story today about all the boomers who found out their biological dad was a priest
>Crucially, a 25-year study of 1,500 Catholic priests found less than half the priests in the United States attempt celibacy — which experts say is a major factor fuelling so-called reproductive abuse. The study’s author, ex-priest Richard Sipe, argued it creates a culture of secrecy that tolerates and even protects paedophiles — though he estimated that four times as many priests involve themselves sexually with women than with children.
The celibacy thing is moronic anyway. It's not dogma just a convenience for a church to keep money.
It should get lifted.
That's false.
Celibacy happens because priests need to dedicate their entire lives and leave everything else to follow Christ.
The idea that celibacy happens because of material reasons is just Marxist theory shit by lazy, intellectually challenged Marxists who didn't study history.
Would also like to mention that in China there were eunuchs who couldn't get sons for obvious reasons who had no problem accumulating wealth, being corrupt and stealing from the dynasty. As it turns out, people have siblings, cousins and nephews too.
>Celibacy happens because priests need to dedicate their entire lives and leave everything else to follow Christ.
That's the ideal to strive towards but in practical organization it's different, even Paul says that even Bishops can have up to one wife if they can't contain the fire within.
All apostolic Churches besides Catholic have married clergy.
I'm with you, personally, but it's not my decision. If they're going to insist on that though, they need to do a better job of walking through potential priests if this is their actual vocation. A lot didn't it seemed, and then struggle.
Priestly celibacy is part of the "internal discipline" of the Church and the Church could change it if it wanted to.
But the reason why it happens is not the materialistic conspiracy theory that it was to let the Church accumulate more wealth (which as I mentioned wouldn't even work).
And I think this is a good policy by the Church (for the reasons I mentioned) regardless of what the others do (and as far as I know Orthodox Bishops should be "never married" and someone can't marry after being ordained as an Orthodox).
>and as far as I know Orthodox Bishops should be "never married" and someone can't marry after being ordained as an Orthodox).
You are correct.
But on the other hand even Peter, Prince of the Apostles, had a wife and daughter.
Point is that the internal discipline should be an ideal but following Paul to have a wife is completely fine as well. A lot of the laity agree.
Peter didn't live a married life after becoming an apostle...
The discipline is a good one and should be Church policy. The problem the Church faced is not due to celibacy.
No, it's actually because a bunch of priests in the middle ages were handing off their property to their children, basically making the position hereditary. It got formally outlawed sometime in the 12th century.
NTA but everyone ITT knows that and has moved past it to try to discuss the issue in a little more depth
That's just a meme, really. Corrupt clergy without children can benefit their nephews, siblings, etc. Or if they are really corrupt they just have bastard children and benefit them.
Celibacy was meant to make the priests more monk-like and devoted to their vocation only. Priestly celibacy is a good thing from a spiritual point of view, but it is completely ineffectual to corruption.
imagine the church having to financially support the wives and children of the priests as well as priests themselves. its about money, not because theyre so dedicated to jesus
And yet every other religion manages
The Church historically supported orphans and widows, anon... Supporting wives and sons of priests wouldn't be expensive.
youre naive if you think the church would be willing the shell out the money for that, priests are there to spread the word, theyre the face of the church, letting them have kids and wives means less money in the church coffers=less influence, while also dividing the priests time, energy and spirit, i think most priests would put their family first, something tangible and earthly, it would mean an exodus
Wealth was not the problem. You are taking too much of a Marxist view, anon.
The Church always had programs for orphans and widows, since the beginning. It is not a public corporation with shareholders and a profit maximization thing.
If anything, some protestant churches with married clergy do act as a corporation with shareholders and they have no problems with the family of their clergy.
>dividing the priests time, energy and spirit, i think most priests would put their family first,
Is the problem.
I remember the interview of a priest about this and he mentioned he doesn't really have tons of free time but if he had a wife and kids he would likely have to neglect his work with the Church.
>wouldn't be expensive.
it would be, considering a large chunk of church money goes to child abuse victims nowadays, you think the church aint penny pinching asf rn?
There are many individual churches, some have money problems, some are very wealthy. Each Bishop is the head of its own Church.
But that anon is talking about the medieval Church which didn't really have money problems.
The rules of celibacy were instituted because Bishops kept bequeathing their lands to their children, anon. There is zero theological backing, which is why it only cane about over a thousand years after Yeshua's death.
Anon, those are internal discipline rules. The Church can create its own rules for priests. And Bishops have siblings, nephews and even illegitimate children. If they want to give away Church property to their family, they will.
Filtered. It's the only thing that makes them credible. If they can't overcome cooming they are just coping pathetic christcucks. If they overcome it that's a big win in my book. Makes me have more respect for them. Most people just do everything in life for the end purpose of sex even though they'll never admit it. Priests are closest to Niezches uberman than anyone else because they're slaves to pussy sex and their hands. Nofap and no sex means you have extreme self control which is based. If I had a serious job for someone to do I wouldn't want them fricking off even on their personal time. Either 100% devotion or nothing at all.
>The only way these guys can show their devotion to Yahweh is to get 0 pussy their entire life
I'm sure they could have thought of something else. Why not just do the Nazarite vow?
I mean, frick. The whole point of the Pope is he's supposed to be like OT Nazarites
They show their devotion in other ways too, anon.
Why do you want the priests to have sex so much?
I'm not original anon you responded to. I was just pointing out that it's a dumb vow.
Samson was allowed to have as much sex as he wanted and keep his super strengrh, but modern priests aren't allowed to get laid?
>get laid
Anon, do you think priests should have casual sex?
Everyone was doing it in the OT and Yahweh only got selectively pissed.
I just don't get why they need to make a special vow to be closer with Yahweh when the instruction manual already has easier guidelines on how to do this
>don't eat meat
>don't drink alcohol
>don't cut your hair
What was wrong with that? Those first 2 are good for you anyways
I repeat the question: you think priests should have casual sex?
And I don't think you have a good understanding of how Christians view the Old Testament.
Yes. There's nothing in the Bible saying they shouldn't. Why make up a new special rule when the Bible already has clear instructions on what they're trying to do
And OT is still a mandatory doctrine attached to their faith. You can't really disown it
>There's nothing in the Bible saying they shouldn't
Yes, there is. And the Bible doesn't contain all of Christian teaching.
Where exactly did it say God's chosen ones weren't allowed to have sex? And, yes. I'm familiar with books like Gospel of Thomas and Pistis Sophia
They were not allowed to have sex out of marriage... There are plenty of mentions against fornication.
Back in Bibles times, sex meant you were married.
There's are plenty of instances where Yahweh doesn't care about fornication
The Old Testament was God slowly civilizing an ancient people to make them ready to receive the Messias. But it didn't contain all of the revelation.
>Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
>“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
>“Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
>Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
This is basic Christianity. We don't follow the Old Testament.
>We don't follow the Old Testament.
Yes you do. You're just a israeli heresy.
God bless this man. He's exposed countless people to both philosophy and God. God bless him.
The Catholic Church has been subverted by israeli marxism for decades.
Bad seeds don't mean the whole Church. Besides, they have Distributism. Which is better than Marxism and addresses all the same problems.
That's the Church of England.
Why haven't they given OT stories the same treatment as Passion?
A live action movie where Samson kills 1000 people or the life of Elijah would be cool. Jesus basically plagiarized Elijah and Elisha anyways
Elijah was just a prophet. No amount of teachings or wisdom will ever help you reach eternity or stand in the presence of God. Only the blood of Christ.
Jesus's story is heavily lifted from Elijah and Elisha
>Copies most of Elijah's miracles
>Jesus is baptized where Elijah is raptured and Elisha starts his ministry
>Betrayed for money
>Elisha's corpse is able to bring people back to life
I'm forgetting some stuff, but it's definitely not coincidence
modern people hate the old testament
Yeah guys Le Sky man is totally real
Cool, burn in hell then. Nobody is going to cry if you want that.
It's literally the easiest conclusion to reach, just because you want to complicate things doesn't mean it's not true and he doesn't exist.
>um it's real because books says so
Stop
You can't find God in a book, God is larger than life.
Your god isn't real. Mine is. Cry about it.
Your God is hamfisted, dawg, just stop trying to promote him.
My god is cool and exists while yours doesn't.
What's his name?
None of your fricking business. They wouldn't like you anyway.
How do you figure?
The smartest priests are the ones who start out as protestants, get married and have a few kids then convert.
I swear every Priest has 3 degrees and can speak 10 languages
Most modern seminaries have coped with the slow death of church attendance by overcompensating in the education department, I guess since they realise they can't expect people to mindlessly turn up anymore. Plus, since there's no real advantage to becoming a priest these days compared to several decades ago, all you get are the bad ones, or the fanatics and geniuses.
The ones who go to the priesthood for material advantages are the bad ones...
The fanatics ARE the good priests.
Don't you need a degree to become a priest? Yes I agree with you though
you can get Catholic kino every week if you live in a nice area
>if you touch your penis or don't have sex for procreation you go to hell
I'll pass.
sin scars your soul, and enough scars will disfigure you and make you into a hideous person
And entity that could create a universe wouldn't be so petty. Abrahmic religions are misery cults.
God's not the one that sends you to hell, you are
through our failures we damn ourselves
you can't blame God for that
>God predetermined everything in your life
>is the one judging you after you die
>Somehow you have free will in all this
>he doesn't believe in free will
what is this calvinist nonsense
>Unseen entity pulling all the strings in your life
>Meticulously controls everything in the universe
>Punishes you for not doing what he wants, sometimes forever which is unjust
But, yeah. Free will
not my problem if you're too moronic to understand free will
the future hasn't happened yet and you can amend your ways
determinism is an excuse to keep on committing sin
the limbo of the children is empty
Your brain is empty.
>the future hasn't happened yet and you can amend your ways
>determinism is an excuse to keep on committing sin
You don't have free will if god knows what's going to happen. If he does know what's going to happen that means the universe is deterministic. You can't have system that's both ways.
God knows every future that can happen, but they haven't happened yet
you have some control over your own future, and denying this means you're either moronic or coping because you're a bad person and don't want to admit it
>God knows every future that can happen, but they haven't happened yet
1. Your god doesn't exist.
2. Abrahmic lore is barbaric.
3. If you know something is going to happen then it's not muh multiverse.
you're really thick
God knows what's going to happen which means that everything is already planned out. It's called determinism.
God doesn't punish you.
He gives us the decision of following Him or not. And that's it. The only problem is that separating yourself from God is extremely bad for yourself.
>you're going to hell because a talking snake convinced your ancestor to eat an apple so he could know right from wrong
Shut the frick up b***h.
First of all your god doesn't exist and if he didn't he would be psychotic masochist that signs off on child murder. My god is cool and exists.
You don't even know "my" God, but you say yours is cooler. What makes your God so cool?
From
Your god doesn't exist. How does that make you feel abrahimic? You've doing that to other religions forever.
I'm a Gnostic Pagan and also a Monotheist.
I don't proselytize because that would be gay. You're either a shit person or you're not.
I'm a terrible person. Yes, proselytizing is against The Way.
?t=73
:^)
>First of all your god doesn't exist and if he didn't he would be psychotic masochist that signs off on child murder.
Base-
>My god is cool and exists.
Cringe, you ruined it.