You have the development backwards. The Ground Gundams are made of leftover project V parts and they do have their own model number and development codenames as Gundams. The Ground GMs were also approved since they were worried that the limited number of Ground Gundams that could be built would not be enough, and both designs were rolled out of the factories and into combat at about the same time.
frick no the Gun EZ is a pretty strong suit, it was still getting deployed by the end of the series, even wrecking top of the line Zanscare MS, I mean the Gunblastor is basically the same shit so it counts
>Gundam Mk II gets outclassed pretty early on.
I never understood this, and i cannot remember if this was addressed in Zeta.
Did the Titans just not give a shit about the Gundam name? Why would you make the follow up to the most powerful mobile suit in history something so mid?
>Did the Titans just not give a shit about the Gundam name?
My dude, they made 2 extra Gundams after the MK-II both of which were quite fearsome in their own right.
Because of the Movable Frame.
Basically they had a revolutionary new frame designed as part of the RX-178 which they then realized could actually facilitate transformable MS which the RX-178 was not designed for. Active development on the RX-178 then stopped early and the three prototypes were just used as testbeds while the engineers went back to the drawing board to try and get a working Delta Gundam instead. This failed, and the prototype was eventually assembled as the non-transformable Hyaku Shiki and they went with the Methuss platform as a workable transforming MS whose base design became the basis for a bunch of other transforming MS. Then after Kamille Bidan changed the game again with the design of the Zeta Gundam they applied some of his ideas to the Delta Gundam design and eventually got the Delta Plus.
tl;dr: Gundam Mk II got left behind because of the new and tasty transformables
I guess that makes some sense in the way that you look at a lot of the Titan mobile suits and some do transform, Asshimar, Gabthley, Hambrabi. So the preference for those suits to get tech for the best performance could explain why MK-II was the ignored child of the family and suffered performance wise.
I guess also the fact that you couldnt really have the MK-II be a dominate mobile suit in the second half of Zeta or in ZZ because they needed to show the Zeta and the ZZ as bad ass in their own shows, plus you have the Hyaku Shiki, so the MK-II sort of had to be good but not too good to let the Zeta boys shine in their own shows.
It's still one of my favorite Gundam designs, even if it was never the dominant Gundam like the Nu or F91 were.
The problem with mobile armors is that as mobile suit technology improved, they became an evolutionary dead end.
Beam weapons? Practically standardized by the time of the Gryps War
Heavy armor? Negated due to the proliferation of beam weaponry
Heavier overall firepower? Became possible to mount more, stronger weapons on mobile suits due to increasingly powerful reactors
Remote weapons? Became possible at a much more efficient scale with mobile suits due to psycommu
I-Fields? Became scaled down for mobile suit use, then became redundant when beam shields started being a thing
Multiple modes? Movable frame technology allowed it to be scaled down to mobile suits.
Actual atmospheric flight? Minovsky Craft System was eventually miniaturized for mobile suit usage, then had derivatives like the Minovsky Drive and Minovsky Flight System
This isn't even mentioning the fact that when they were used, they were really only ever effective as a shock weapon. Like sure, the first time that a mobile armor is deployed you're going to have the enemy scrambling to figure out what the hell it is and try to organize a response, taking a ton of casualties. But that's only for the first time. Once the enemy has had the time to pick apart a mobile armor, the next time they encounter it they're going to prioritize destroying it and wipe the floor with it. We've quite literally seen it happen over and over.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Not really. Every tech advancement you mentioned can also be added to Mobile Armors. The problem is that Gundam only shows us when mobile Armors lose against the hero main character. They never show us the 20 other times that mobile Armors are effective.
The only time I can remember when Mobile Armors succeeded was in 0083 when Gato destroyed 2 Federation fleets with the Neue Ziel, smashed the Solar System control ship, and then defeated Uraki in a 1v1 duel.
I mean in side material the Titans developed a transformable Gundam MKIII, but because side material for this series is so fricking scattered or inaccessible I refuse to acknowledge its existence.
Regardless, aside from the Pysco Gundams like
>Did the Titans just not give a shit about the Gundam name?
My dude, they made 2 extra Gundams after the MK-II both of which were quite fearsome in their own right.
mentioned, I don't think the Titans were ever actually intent on following up on the "Gundam name." The Gundam MKII wasn't really meant to do that either, it was just built as a testbed/working prototype for movable frame technology. I imagine the reason the MKII was was called a Gundam at all was because people considered it eponymous with the idea of high performance mobile suits.
CCA was really good at showing how mobile suits in general are pretty resilient.
I don't think the shows ever did that too often, but in CCA you had people sortieing in Jegans and Re-GZs with missing parts and stuff, it was neat and added to the sense of desperation and resource scarcity.
>The Jagd Doga's sensors, thrusters, and nuclear reactor have also been significantly improved compared to those on Geara Doga. As a result, it has greater speed and mobility, and more power for its weapons and other systems. In terms of performance, the Jagd Doga was the second most powerful mobile suit in the Newborn Neo Zeon's arsenal, second only to the MSN-04 Sazabi.
>The Geara Dogas were already very mediocre
Compared to Jegans? They were about the same. But they stomp. Nemos and GM IIIs. Jeans werent mass produced yet in CCA. Only Londo Bell had most of them.
Mediocre in that technically most of the NZ suits from ZZ outspec the Geara Doga in firepower or even just in general.
>But they stomp. Nemos and GM IIIs. Jeans werent mass produced yet in CCA. Only Londo Bell had most of them.
Well they only really ever fight Jegans, they might have fought GM IIIs at some point but not on screen, and they'll probably never fight a Nemo. In a hypothetical fight the Doga isn't even that much better than the Nemo. The Nemo should be slighter faster than the Doga due to a better thrust-to-weight ratio, while the Doga might be slightly more agile since it's got more maneuvering thrusters and weighs slight less. The ways in which the Doga does stand out are that it carries more disposable firepower in the form of sturm faust rockets and it's got newer avionics like the arm raker-type wienerpit, but those don't really decide a fight on their own.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>Well they only really ever fight Jegans, they might have fought GM IIIs at some point but not on screen, and they'll probably never fight a Nemo.
By the time we see CCA, we're already in the middle of the conflict. It's implied Char's fleet has been operating and dropping small asteroids for a while. And Londo Bell was desperately playing catch up. Char just needed one more big Asteroid (Axis) to finish the job.
So im sure their encountered GM IIi and Nemo units at some point. Yet the Geara Dogas always came out on top. Plus attacking Luna 2 was no easy task even with the element of surprise. It's still a Federation fortress. It probably had a wide assortment of units including Jegans, GM IIIs, and Nemos. Yet the Geara Doga came out on top every time.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Nemos are not part of the EF space fleet. Even Karaba standardized on GM IIIs during ZZ, and the only Nemos seen after the Gryps conflict are on Earth in Unicorn. We never see or hear of Nemos deployed in space after the Gryps conflict.
There is a good chance that Geara Dogas fought GM IIIs, but it never happens onscreen. Even when Char raids Luna II, the only EFSF MS onscreen are all Jegans, not even the GM III shows up. When a bunch of GM IIIs show up near the end of the movie, they don't engage with Char's forces but go straight to pushing Axis.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Nemos are seen being used by the EFF in Unicorn.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>Nemos are not part of the EF space fleet.
There is absolutely no way you can say that with 100% certaintity. The EF is vast and loves to reuse equipment until it's beyond obselete.
9 months ago
Anonymous
They probably cut Nemo Production short anyways once Axis Zeon threw in the towel in order to push for Jegan production and to try and desperately move for some sort of standardization to end the logistical hell they were starting to get and to save money by going towards a new sheet suit (which later had suits built off it's core body for parts commonality)
9 months ago
Anonymous
We see Nemos being used in Gundam NT and Gundam Unicorn.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>Nemos are not part of the EF space fleet.
There is absolutely no way you can say that with 100% certaintity. The EF is vast and loves to reuse equipment until it's beyond obselete.
This is why I said Nemos are only seen in use on Earth, not the space fleet. In CCA we saw that the EF space fleets operate a mix of GM IIIs and Jegans, with more important units such as Londo Bell prioritized to receive Jegans first to the point that they are already ONLY operating Jegans, there are no GM IIIs in Bright's Londo Bell detachment and when they stop at Londenion to pick up extra units in anticipation of the final assault on Axis, it is still an all-Jegan force (not counting the Re-GZ and Nu Gundam of course). In Unicorn which takes place 3 years later, the only GMs we see are GM IIs and GM IIIs which are on Earth. All of the EF space forces from unit that chases the Garancieres, to the Nahel Argama and the reinforcements it receives, to the General Revil, are equipped with Jegans as their oldest unit, while the Nahel Argama and General Revil are equipped with the newer ReZELs.
At no point do we ever see a Nemo operated in space by the Feds in animation, it is only seen on Earth.
>We see Nemos being used in Gundam NT and Gundam Unicorn.
When did a Nemo show up in Narrative?
9 months ago
Anonymous
I am not those anons but I will say if we see Nemos being used on Earth then there is a high likelyhood they are being used in space as well. Maybe not on the front lines or in elite squads, but probably for patrol duties in less important areas. If we include manga, then yeah the EF is still using Nemos. But not everyone likes including manga sources.
9 months ago
Anonymous
I believe the only time we ever really see GM IIIs in space during Unicorn was acting as security / escort during the resupply and repairing of the Nahel Argama at the end of the second OVA.
Well Londo Bell was pretty understaffed. They only had what? 3 ships?
[...] >they made a dozen or so of him, they would be able to wreck a Federation fleet on their own.
That's too dangerous and crazy expensive. 1 cyber newtype like Gyunei is bad enough. But 12? They would all go wild and gas eachother up and cause chaos. They would be completely uncontrollable.
4 ships (Ra Cailum and 3 Clops) and "20" MSs, but naturally Londo Bell basically strapped on as many Jegans they could during the assault on Axis since there is no way they'd be evenly matched against Neo Zeon's supposed 80+ MSs and Alpha Azieru
9 months ago
Anonymous
Ra Calium has 6 ramps but barely any MS to justify having so many.
9 months ago
Anonymous
I believe you are referring to the Nahel Argama that has 6 ramps (5 front with 2 upside down and 1 on the rear), but I don't think most ships at that time use the ramp on the back for anything but returning / landing. Even then I always thought how the upside down catapult doesn't really make sense since I would assume there's still a lot of work need to be done to turn your MS upside down inside the ship.
There were GM III pushing Axis at the end of CCA you goof ball
>He can't track conversations correctly
I was responding to his statement about Unicorn specifically, not CCA.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>6 ramps >hardly any MS pilots
It is almost as if RC was intended to host Amuro, Kamille, Judau, and more
9 months ago
Anonymous
Six ramps? I count two forward-facing catapults on the dorsal side. There's a hangar hatch on the ventral side but no catapult/ramp. Then one rear hatch with a shortened deck. Where are the other ramps?
9 months ago
Anonymous
I reread and someone said it was the Nahel Argama that has 6. My bad
9 months ago
Anonymous
The Nahel Argama isn't justified having so many catapults either. Why does it need 6 catapults to launch 12 mobile suits?
9 months ago
Anonymous
In an emergency situation like getting ambushed or if the radar is down because of minovsky particles, getting your own MS out ASAP to take care of enemies or provide protection is a good idea. That said, most ships get by just fine with two catapults and a siderear hatch or two. It's usually only the large ships that carry an absurd number of MS that need to worry about the number of catapults being a bottleneck.
9 months ago
Anonymous
I could see 3 or maybe 4 catapults. But 6 catapults??? For only 12 mobile suits? What a waste of space. That deck space could be used for so many other things. More guns, more AA defense, more armor, and/or more living space. Look at the Ra Calium. 2 launch catapults and 1 rear recovery ramp for like 30 mobile suits. Yet no issues with launching suits and has much more armor.
9 months ago
Anonymous
The Nahel Argama has two upside down catapults under the two in the front and it was supposed to have retrofitted after the first Neo Zeon War to house more mobile suits (12 to 16), but from the callsigns shown in the Unicorn OVA indicates the ship itself have around 20 Mobile Suits with 12 ReZELs, 6 Jegans, and 2 EWAC Jegans before taking the ECOAS units into consideration (at least 4 Jegan De and whatever amount of Lotos they brought along).
>Look at the Ra Calium. 2 launch catapults and 1 rear recovery ramp for like 30 mobile suits.
It at most had around 12~14 MS in Unicorn (all Jestas, that lone ReGZ, and Delta Plus before the brief taking in of Unicorn and Banshee), but the whole listed capacity had always been weird since the CCA movie brochure had Londo Bell with only 20 mobile suits (8 on Ra Kailum and 4 on its three Clops) going up against Neo Zeon's 80+ despite the fact that Londo Bell probably threw everything they had and we saw extra Jegans being stowed outside the ship.
9 months ago
Anonymous
There were GM III pushing Axis at the end of CCA you goof ball
9 months ago
Anonymous
I think you missed anon's point. He's saying the reason Char succeeded during the early part of the conflict was because he wasnt facing entire fleets of Jegans which are equal to Geara Dogas. Char's Geara Dogas were probably facing older units like Nemos and GM III units. When the Jegans started rolling out is when the Geara Dogas faced stiffer resistance.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>He's saying the reason Char succeeded during the early part of the conflict was because he wasnt facing entire fleets of Jegans which are equal to Geara Dogas.
Bright and Amuro were present for 5th Luna but they failed to stop it too
9 months ago
Anonymous
Well Londo Bell was pretty understaffed. They only had what? 3 ships?
Seemed like they basically had it right by Gyunei. He was overambitious and not as good as Char or Amuro, but if they made a dozen or so of him, they would be able to wreck a Federation fleet on their own.
>they made a dozen or so of him, they would be able to wreck a Federation fleet on their own.
That's too dangerous and crazy expensive. 1 cyber newtype like Gyunei is bad enough. But 12? They would all go wild and gas eachother up and cause chaos. They would be completely uncontrollable.
9 months ago
Anonymous
They had no trouble with the Puru line. Gyunei didn't even have any behavioral defects except for a giant ego which might stem from his original personality. That's already leaps and bounds ahead as an actual functioning person compared to Fed cyber newtypes that have split personalities, erased memories, and extreme brainwashing to the point of having verbal commands and thought patterns implanted into them for the express purpose of making them aggressive or shutdown as needed
9 months ago
Anonymous
Gyunei was obsessed with Quess after meeting her for 5 minutes. To the point that he was willing to spread rumors about Char and destroy Zeon moral. He wanted to be with Quess that badly. Hes not mentally stable.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Is there even anyone who is a 100% stable Cyber Newtype?
9 months ago
Anonymous
No, closest was Four. And we know how that turned out.
9 months ago
Anonymous
I mean from all that we saw Gates Capa was 100% stable.
...At least until Rosamia died and the psychic backlash fried his brain, but that's neither here nor there.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Was that because he was a Cyber Newtype, though? He had to hear the rumors from someone in the first place, presumably a non-Cyber Newtype. In at least Beltorchika's Children, Reizn states openly that it's a shame that Char is a e-girlcon. The whole Quess thing was a case of a Newtype connection either way. That's something even normal Newtypes are susceptible to, remember Hathaway's obsession with the same girl in CCA? Or Char and Amuro being obsessed with Lalah for far too long? Gyunei's problems are about the same as a normal Newtype, along with a huge ego from being second to Char among Neo Zeon's pilots. Considering how effective he is compared to the average pilot and the fact that Char could manipulate him into doing exactly what he wanted him in a few seconds, that generation of Cyber Newtypes weren't a dead end.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>Gyunei was obsessed with Quess after meeting her for 5 minutes.
Natural newtypes have also developed really strong bonds after meeting another newtype. Hell, Quess develops a minor schoolgirl crush on Amuro and gets pissy when Chan told her off in the Ra Cailum hangar. Then she met Char and developed a massive schoolgirl crush on him, enough to make her run away with him. However, it might be like that because the movie had a short runtime leaving less time for development for both. Glemmy for example is also obsessive about Roux, but it's not seen as a mental problem since it is partially some kind of love at first sight and the obsession develops over most of the entire show.
>To the point that he was willing to spread rumors about Char and destroy Zeon moral.
The rumors didn't start with Gyunei, it's kind of been following Char around for a couple of years. Spreading fud about his self-perceived rival is toxic, but not really psychotic.. yet.
>Hes not mentally stable.
He had vague ideas about wanting the Nu for himself so he could beat Char with it, but it never really happens. It's more like imaginary power fantasies about killing his boss and winning the attention/affection of the girl he works with. This is not actually mental instability, Gyunei is fairly consistent in his mind.
An actual example of a mentally unstable cyber newtype would be Rosamia. She changes personalities from "pilot wanting to prove her skills" to "mentally childish insisting that Kamille is her brother" and occasionally cries about the sky falling on her. Later after having more or less deceived people into thinking she wasn't a threat, she steals a Nemo out of just wanting to cling to Kamille who had to head out into battle, and even shoots down a enemy Hizack for him, but then shortly after she regains an adult composure and becomes hostile toward Kamille, declaring that she was ordered to kill him. She was intentionally brainwashed this way.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>The rumors didn't start with Gyunei
He spent a lot of time amplifying and spreading the rumors. He even told Quess to her face about it. Char had to confront Gyunei and tell him to stop and cut that nonsense out.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Glemmy accomplished far more in regards to rebelling against his leader and never stopped obsessing over Roux until she vaporized him with a beam rifle, but we don't call that mental instability. I mean it's an butthole move for sure, but Gyunei spreading rumors doesn't sound like mental instability to me.
9 months ago
Anonymous
It's a sub-point that you were nitpicking. It falls under the main point of Gyunei being obsessed with Quess while only knowing her for a few minutes.
The same way how Hathaway murdered Chan in cold blood because he was obsessed with Quess too.
9 months ago
Anonymous
So is being obsessed with someone after a relatively short period of time a natural newtype trait or a sign of crazy cyber newtype, or what?
9 months ago
Anonymous
>This is not actually mental instability
Glemmy accomplished far more in regards to rebelling against his leader and never stopped obsessing over Roux until she vaporized him with a beam rifle, but we don't call that mental instability. I mean it's an butthole move for sure, but Gyunei spreading rumors doesn't sound like mental instability to me.
Gyunei literally grabbed an enemy pilot who was defeated and had surrendered. Then proceeded to crush her inner organs, break her bones, and snap her neck with his mobile suit's hand. All in an effort to steal Nu Gundam and "challenge" Char because he believed if he beat Char in mobile suit combat that Quess would fall in love with him.
I would call that Insanity.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Getting the Nu Gundam would be a big win for Zeon, though. It's not crazy to take a hostage then follow up on your threat to show you're serious. Evil, maybe, but not crazy.
9 months ago
Anonymous
He wasn't doing it for Zeon. He was doing it to win over a girl he knew for 10 minutes.
9 months ago
Anonymous
You made up half those details. Gyunei did not take pleasure in the moment and it was NOT an intentional slow crush meant to inflict maximum pain. He did not crush her organs or break her bones. When Gyunei decides that Amuro is resisting too much, he whips the hand holding Keyra in a circular motion then tosses Keyra aside.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Gyunai literally says he's going to kill her if Amuro doesn't surrender Nu Gundam. Then his mobile suit hand squeezes her slowly, crushing her body and organs, and she screams in pain. Amuro yells for him to stop and surrenders. Gyunei orders Amuro to be electrocuted and killed. Nu Gundam's funnels activate and fire on the electric wires shocking Nu Gundam. Gyunei shakes her and flings her body away which snaps her neck. Amuro recovers the body but she is already dead and brought back to Ra Calium. She died because Gyunei snapped her neck and crushed her body.
9 months ago
Anonymous
You're still confusing evil deeds with mental problems. Mental problems can lead people to do bad things, but not everyone who does bad things is insane.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>defending war crimes and tortue
You are splitting hairs and using wordplay because you don't want to admit you are wrong. You have yet to provide any evidence that Gyunei is stable and mentally sound individual. But all evidence shown so far (Zeta Gundam, ZZ Gundam, Etc) show that cyber newtypes are mentally unstable and have severe personality defects.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>You are splitting hairs and using wordplay because you don't want to admit you are wrong.
Complaining about splitting hairs is stupid. If splitting hairs and using certain words is a problem, doesn't that mean the point you are making is too broad and vague when it doesn't work for other words?
>You have yet to provide any evidence that Gyunei is stable and mentally sound individual.
And I keep telling you that everything you have mentioned so far are not examples of unstable behavior. He does not have trouble following orders or reasoning logically to reach a conclusion. He does not have behavioral problems that make him unfit for anything other than an attack dog like failure to connect patterns, being unable to control impulses, or doing things for no reason. I provided you examples of other cyber newtypes like Rosamia actually having cognitive problems and flipping personalities on a dime, and Gyunei doesn't do any of that. Gyunei even leads a team, other cyber newtypes are just mindless broken weapons that are let loose on enemies.
He wants to court a girl he knows for 10 minutes? Why is there silence when I point out Quess wants to join Char after knowing him for 10 minutes, the majority of which was a car and horse chase? His idea of beating and replacing Char? That is ambition and ego. What exactly is the insane part, that he's planning to betray his boss? If he is not stable or mentally sound, why is he able to formulate a plan to exploit Amuro's weakness that almost succeeds? He knows what he is doing and he understands why it is working. There's nothing insane about that. If killing a hostage is insanity incarnate, will you tell me that Jerid is an insane newtype because he led an operation where his troops tried to gas a colony even though he himself acknowledges it as evil?
9 months ago
Anonymous
So your argument is that Gyunei is....a sociopath? That's not any better lmao
9 months ago
Anonymous
Anyone who is willing to commit war crimes for a girl he is just met is insane. You know this is true Anon. Why are you arguing against this?
9 months ago
Anonymous
Fool, you've fricked yourself into a corner now. You have to prove Keyra signaled a surrender first, no backsies.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>Fool, you've fricked yourself into a corner now.
Pilots who bail or eject out of their planes are protected by Geneva conventions. It is a war crime to attack them.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Does not apply to mobile suits.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Says who?
9 months ago
Anonymous
Says the official document which uses the term aircraft. Last time I checked, mobile suits are a revolutionary new fighting platform generally designed for space combat that cannot be simply likened to any previous vehicle like a tank or plane or boat. Depending on the vehicle, there may or may not be conventions on it. My understanding is that aircraft crew who bail out are at the mercy of their parachute or ejection system, they are typically strapped in and cannot defend themselves until they reach the ground and therefore it is in bad taste to attack them. () Tank and armored vehicle crews leaving their damaged vehicle are not subject to such protections for example, as they often carry small arms and as soon as they exit the vehicle they are considered combatants, even if less well armed and protected than a regular infantryman. Airborne infantry parachuting down also do not have protections and are considered valid targets.
Based on that, if we had to make amendments for mobile suits, I would imagine that if a mobile suit pilot ejects from his suit in a pod, then following the spirit of the geneva convention it would be considered illegal to attack the pod+pilot as the pilot has no way of defending himself. A mobile suit pilot that opens the hatch to exit by themselves may still be a combatant, as we've seen some pilots carry a sidearm or their wienerpit may have personal defensive weapons they can retrieve before leaving the wienerpit, similar to a vehicle crew.
Therefore for a pilot who wants to surrender, but if they do not have a dedicated ejection pod or cannot activate it, it would be very prudent to make their intentions clear and immediately declare surrender to clear away any doubts or itchy trigger fingers.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Air crews/pilots abandoning their planes, paratroopers, and shipwrecked sailors are covered by treaties. Attacking them is illegal even during war. It is considered a war crime ever since WW2. The only people not covered by treaty are tank crews and crews of armored vehicles that are abandoning their vehicles. But in practice, they are also generally offered a chance to surrender or allowed to flee. It is standard practice by almost all militaries of the world. You don't gun down people jumping out of their burning vehicle.
Mobile suits are similar to fighter jets so it would be a good bet that there are similar treaties about mobile suit pilots. In addition, you are supposed to take prisoners because of Gundam's Antarctic Treaty. I'm pretty sure using your mobile suit hand to grab a pilot, squeeze them, use them as a hostage, and shake them violently, and snap their neck is a war crime no matter how you slice it. No military tribunal would ever declare them innocent if a pilot did that to another person. There's no excuse there. Gyunei did commit war crimes here.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>Air crews/pilots abandoning their planes, paratroopers, and shipwrecked sailors are covered by treaties.
Paratroopers are specifically exempt from protection in the Geneva conventions and it is neither a crime nor morally wrong to attack them while they descend because they are not in distress, they are dropping to attack.
>But in practice, they are also generally offered a chance to surrender or allowed to flee. It is standard practice by almost all militaries of the world. You don't gun down people jumping out of their burning vehicle. >Gyunei did commit war crimes here
Morally yes, legally no(t as far as we know).
9 months ago
Anonymous
>But in practice, they are also generally offered a chance to surrender or allowed to flee. It is standard practice by almost all militaries of the world. You don't gun down people jumping out of their burning vehicle.
Lol no what are you talking about, all militaries from WW2 to Iraq hosed down tanks with MG fire to kill the crew.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Point of order but the Nemo III was inservice by that point and is arguably better than the Jegan in literally every way except max reactor output...which the Jegan doesn't make use of anyway since it's slower and less heavily armed.
The Jagd's funnels have ~8 times the power output of the Qubeley's funnels, and I'd imagine a proper beam gun would be more powerful than the holstered beam sabres in the forearm.
it's just a zeta without a waverider and a bit taller
ok it's not neo-zeon levels of powercreep ala Wolves/Zak3, it's still the suit that's given to high ranking members of the New Born due to it's unparalleled performance/features among mass-produced suits in faction; ergo "top"
To be fair, Buran was distracted, but it was clear that Amuro, even while rusty and still recovering from retirement, had Kamille in awe when he sortied.
Nah. As much as I'd love to shit all over Athrun and his machines, Saviour went down due to pilot incompetence alone; its was never given a time to shine.
Kira abandons his shield and only takes off Savior's arm in it's first past, Athrun had ample chance to just fire the cannons right there and Kira would have died. He just doesn't because he doesn't want to kill Kira so he pretty much has no choice but to just stand there and get sliced up.
Frick off try hard posser, we are literally comparing machine specs, do you even like machines homosexual? This is no Dragon ball power levels, this actually comparing design specs
Y'know the fact that they're stuck with scrapping together this with their own RnD and constantly get wienerblocked on any new developments is why the Federation wet navy keeps funding Zeonic holdouts on earth, just saying. Honestly I'd be pretty fricking mad too if I was left to do a vital job with literally GM 1.5s with snorkels and a bunch of Zeonic aquatic suits the federation didn't have to pay to develop while having to kitbash my own gundam knockoff.
Amuro was THIS close to killing Gyunei in the Sazabi with the Re-Gz and only failed because Char interferred, and Char only did as well as he did because Gyunei backed up him.
But you can chalk that up to the fact that Amuro is an absurdly good pilot, not the machine.
What if the Federation was being a frick and not giving him the best thing they had in their inventory so Amuro had to bypass the Feds and personally deal with Anaheim himself?
>Oh, we're facing an extinction-level threat? Here's a middling reject from the Zeta scrap pile, it doesn't even transform.
Don't even bring up the oft-mentioned but unproven bullshit claim that Amuro requested a Zeta and was denied, but there's got to be a better mobile suit in the Federation's arsenal than just the Re-GZ. Captured NZ machines from the end of Haman's group like a Doven Wolf, or leftover prototype Titans machines like a Gabthley would have been better than the Re-GZ.
>Captured NZ machines from the end of Haman's group like a Doven Wolf, or leftover prototype Titans machines like a Gabthley would have been better than the Re-GZ.
Fricking please, the Feds wanted to get the Alex to Amuro, they wanted to give him the best machine, if there was some bullshit fanfiction story of captured Neo Zeon MS that Amuro could have used, he would have done it, the Feds would have made it easy as frick for him to get it, just how Amuro got every fricking spec the way he wanted on the Nu Gundam. The Re-GZ was the best suit the feds had for him till the Nu.
9 months ago
Anonymous
achtually
in the novel Amuro wanted his Zeta (3) transported out of atmosphere, but the Feddies kept flaking on him insisting on the regz
a lot of the funding for the Nu was straight out of his pocket when he realised it'd be more fruitful just having a new suit made for him by the moon-coons
9 months ago
Anonymous
>Fricking please, the Feds wanted to get the Alex to Amuro, they wanted to give him the best machine
That isn't even in the same fricking story, how the frick is that supposed to represent the Federation leadership 14 years later as being the same? White Base got treated as well as it did throughout MSG due to the efforts of General Revil and Lt. Matilda who brought them not just supplies through fricking enemy territory but also reinforcement machines. There sure ain't anyone specifically looking out for Bright's ship and crew like that in the time of CCA, but Londo Bell does get priority for the introduction of new Jegans to replace the old GM line.
>if there was some bullshit fanfiction story of captured Neo Zeon MS that Amuro could have used, he would have done it, the Feds would have made it easy as frick for him to get it, just how Amuro got every fricking spec the way he wanted on the Nu Gundam.
And they fricking should have done it, but they didn't.
>The Re-GZ was the best suit the feds had for him till the Nu.
What an absolute crock of shit, the Re-GZ isn't even the best suit to come out of the many attempts to produce a cost-effective Zeta, and it wasn't even the most common one. Even without taking other sidestories or post-CCA media into account, there should still exist other machines that are better than the Re-GZ and conceivably would have existed in Federation possession at the time.
achtually
in the novel Amuro wanted his Zeta (3) transported out of atmosphere, but the Feddies kept flaking on him insisting on the regz
a lot of the funding for the Nu was straight out of his pocket when he realised it'd be more fruitful just having a new suit made for him by the moon-coons
>in the novel Amuro wanted his Zeta (3) transported out of atmosphere
Yeah, I'm gonna have to ask for a source. I don't even know which novel you're talking about.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>other suits better than REGZ
I’m curious what would you say is a better replacement? There’s no ZZ despite there being a MP. Would he get a Hyaku Shiki? Shiki Kai? Zeta plus C1? Got back to the Rick Dijeh? You suppose he get a Doven Wolf, Qubeley MP? or Hamma Hamma? Or does he get a boosted GM III or Jegan?
9 months ago
Anonymous
Not that anon but early Londo Bell was at the mercy of Federation accountants and officials after the disaster of the Titans. They were underfunded and undermanned for their job. I'm sure there was some Federation official vetoing the idea of sending Londo Bell anything too powerful. That's why they only had Jegans and the Re-Gz. Absolutely no Gundams or high end prototypes were allowed. If Amuro or Bright requested something higher end, I'm sure someone in the chain of command said no.
Also Early Londo Bell only had four ships. Just FOUR to patrol the entire Earthsphere. The Titand had dozens if not a few hundred. But Londo Bell only gets four ships and some mass produced units. Nothing more.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Feddieman here, you underestimate how bad the leadership got. Without Revil to give trust to newtypes, John Kowen to push more Gundam development, Blex/ Quattro to show that spacenoids can be trusted with AEUG, no Tem Ray to build a strong Gundam or MPs, Jamitov meandering, shit was garbage. You can see it that by ZZ, nobody gives a frick.
The feds weren’t progressing in development, Amuro had to mock up Nu Gundam by himself, shit wasn’t gonna get done until a real threat was presented. Char’s rebellion is proof that they didn’t take anything seriously
9 months ago
Anonymous
>wanted to give Amuro the Alex
That was the goal. However, they fricked up when they stored it in some colony and not by shipping it to Luna II then to Solomon before Operation Star One.
The issue here is purely logistical.
9 months ago
Anonymous
They stored it in a colony because the Alex was still undergoing tests and considered not ready.
>other suits better than REGZ
I’m curious what would you say is a better replacement? There’s no ZZ despite there being a MP. Would he get a Hyaku Shiki? Shiki Kai? Zeta plus C1? Got back to the Rick Dijeh? You suppose he get a Doven Wolf, Qubeley MP? or Hamma Hamma? Or does he get a boosted GM III or Jegan?
See
How about a proper Zeta Plus unit that could transform? Or the Z II? or a Gundam Mark V? The Zeta Gundam that was abandoned inside Axis. Maybe some Titans models that never showed up again, like Jerid's Gabthley.
This isn't even going into newer content that ends up telling us that AE had a cache of captured Doven Wolves given to them by the Feds that were being experimented on and eventually modified into Silver Bullets, or the RX-9 test platform for the tech that would go into the final Nu Gundam.
. If we include material after CCA, then it gets kinda silly. There's like 4 different Nu Gundam prototypes that Amuro could have been using while waiting for the final version of the Nu to finish construction.
https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/YRA-90A_%CE%BC_Gundam
This one is a prototype ground use MS, further development and changes will lead to the Nu Gundam design. No psycoframe.
https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/RX-93_%CE%BD_Gundam_(First_Lot)
This is essentially the Nu Gundam's complete body but missing funnels and any kind of psycommu device.
https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/RX-9_Narrative_Gundam
Don't even need to explain this thing.
Where did all that Psycommu/Cyber Newtype research go anyways? It's not like the tech and research just disappeared after the Titans were dissolved. The Federation had more than a few R&D centers like Augusta and Oakland developing the tech and machines, and you're telling me a monkey modeled Zeta was the best they could give to the best pilot they had?
The Federation was never particularly good at Psycommu Newtype stuff. Pretty much all Psychoframe/Funnel/Remote weapon/NT-D stuff are developed by either Neon, or Anaheim privately.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Say what? The Titans were ahead of AE on nearly all fronts during Zeta with regards to Newtype tech, they couldn't even figure out movable frame technology until they stole it from the Titans, and they didn't develop any funnel-capable MS during Zeta and ZZ the same way the Titans did. All they had was a semi-Psycommu system with the Biosensor, and all that was supposed to do was give Newtypes a means to more easily interface with their machine, rather than be a full control suite like something in the Psyco Gundam.
9 months ago
Anonymous
All of that basically died with the Titans
9 months ago
Anonymous
There were multiple Federation facilities involved in it, they just handed their shit over to the Titans when ordered. The point is that the Federation already had an understanding and apparatus for research and development for newtype weapons like cyber newtypes and psycommu systems, so what the hell happened between Zeta and CCA where they magically forgot they had the tech and couldn't develop it further?
9 months ago
Anonymous
Cyber newtype research was banished and swept under the rug along with all the Titans stuff, the newtype institutes like Augusta and Oakland were allied with the Titans and also produced weapons for them.
Newtype research restarts under the slightly vaguely reformed post-Zeta Federation but mainly in the form of those EXAM knockoffs like NITRO, oldtype interface systems meant to simulate newtype abilities like Silver Bullet quasi-psycommu and F91 bio-computer, and the Unicorn project. It's a little telling that all of these projects are either anti-newtype or meant for oldtypes and don't necessarily require newtypes at the controls (but of course having a newtype use them generally makes it better)
9 months ago
Anonymous
Let's be real, Cyber NT are a technological dead end. It just creates a bunch of psychos you can barely control in exchange for being able to use a couple classes of weapons only newtypes can use
9 months ago
Anonymous
Seemed like they basically had it right by Gyunei. He was overambitious and not as good as Char or Amuro, but if they made a dozen or so of him, they would be able to wreck a Federation fleet on their own.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Let's be real, Cyber NT are a technological dead end. It just creates a bunch of psychos you can barely control in exchange for being able to use a couple classes of weapons only newtypes can use
They had it right as early as Gates. He was a weaker newtype than Rosamia and Four, but he was stable and didn't randomly flip out the way they both did. The solution was simply making them a strong enough newtype to utilize the systems on their machines like the psycommu controls and things like funnels, but not pushing them to the point of breaking their minds.
9 months ago
Anonymous
The point is that newtype research was already being carried out by multiple institutions within the Federation, and AFAIK there was nothing noted in Zeta or ZZ that they were shut down, but all of a sudden, their research and development just goes poof, and they act like newtype tech is completely incomprehensible to them, the ReGZ doesn't even have a biosensor, it's just that bootleg.
Let's be real, Cyber NT are a technological dead end. It just creates a bunch of psychos you can barely control in exchange for being able to use a couple classes of weapons only newtypes can use
If they just settled with making superhumans that can physically ignore the high stresses of mobile suit combat with enhanced reflexes without trying to tamper with their brain to make them fricked up newtypes, they'd be golden and there would be next to no issue. I'd rather have a company of compliant superhumans with no extrasensory powers than a mere handful of unstable nutbags with extrasensory powers that randomly bluescreen.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Part of it is probably that the Federation doesn't particularly want to empower Newtypes with powerful machines. They don't trust them, and don't really want to have to rely on the psychic power of certain spacenoids. So if they don't want to make crazy cyber newtypes they can't control they basically have no interest in Newtype research.
They'd probably rather hope Amuro and Char kill each other and be rid of both of them then try to make Amuro a super newtype suit
How about a proper Zeta Plus unit that could transform? Or the Z II? or a Gundam Mark V? The Zeta Gundam that was abandoned inside Axis. Maybe some Titans models that never showed up again, like Jerid's Gabthley.
This isn't even going into newer content that ends up telling us that AE had a cache of captured Doven Wolves given to them by the Feds that were being experimented on and eventually modified into Silver Bullets, or the RX-9 test platform for the tech that would go into the final Nu Gundam.
The Zeta is a very underrated unit in terms of capability. If Amuro had been piloting it instead of the ReGZ I legitimately think he would have killed Gyunei. That being said, the ReGZ is a gimped Zeta, it's unreliable and inconsistent enough that we see Londo Bell pilots sortie in Jegans and ReZELs over it, but it's still half a Zeta and if you absolutely have to use it it's a solid suit and very capable
But I do think it's one of the weaker Gundam types relative to its time, down there with the Mark 2 and the Ground Type
>That being said, the ReGZ is a gimped Zeta, it's unreliable and inconsistent enough that we see Londo Bell pilots sortie in Jegans and ReZELs over it
I don't think it was ever stated that it was unreliable. Londo Bell pilots probably couldn't even choose a Re-GZ if they wanted one since we never saw more than one unit at a time, they never built more since it was a rejected design. The one that shows up on the Ra Cailum in Unicorn is just a weird cameo appearance of sorts since it doesn't have any pilots assigned to it and it's primarily a space-use model when the Ra Cailum spent the entirety of its appearances in Unicorn on Earth.
It's unreliable and inconsistent by design, a big strength of the Zeta was to freely switch between MS and waverider mode as often as it wanted, but the ReGZ can only do it once which is not only really cost ineffective but makes it less flexible than the Zetas before it or even the ReZEL after it. In terms of a role on the battlefield it might as well be a souped up Jegan, which isn't bad, I think the ReGZ could be mass produced as a Jegan Kai or something, but it's a gimped Zeta and can't consistently do strafing and scouting runs like the Zeta could
>If Amuro had been piloting it instead of the ReGZ I legitimately think he would have killed Gyunei.
He had a perfect shot lined up that Gyunei didn't see coming, Char just stopped it. The problem wasn't Amuro's machine, his aim was flawless and had already fired, someone else just got in the way.
As many issues I've had with CCA, the way Gyunei was killed off like an insignificant mook was fitting, couldn't stand that smug shit the second he appeared.
CCA to me was lots of really good ideas that didn't have enough time to cook in the oven. I don't even think Quess is a bad idea, it's just an idea they fricked up in execution.
Beautiful movie though, it justifies its existence through the animation alone.
I think it's just Gyunei in a nutshell. He thought he was a main character. Just look at how he feels he simply "deserves" Quess just because he exists. It's all ego on that guy and him dying like a b***h is just perfect
>That being said, the ReGZ is a gimped Zeta, it's unreliable and inconsistent enough that we see Londo Bell pilots sortie in Jegans and ReZELs over it
I don't think it was ever stated that it was unreliable. Londo Bell pilots probably couldn't even choose a Re-GZ if they wanted one since we never saw more than one unit at a time, they never built more since it was a rejected design. The one that shows up on the Ra Cailum in Unicorn is just a weird cameo appearance of sorts since it doesn't have any pilots assigned to it and it's primarily a space-use model when the Ra Cailum spent the entirety of its appearances in Unicorn on Earth.
Amuro actually made his own ReGZ which is shown in Moon Gundam, but Anaheim didn't like it because it was still too expensive, but they made one unit of it.
He gave it to a woman he was simping and at her suggestion renamed it to ReGZID (ID=Ideal) because it's obviously the one he wanted mass produced but they never made more than one.
And Amuro in BC doesn't like the base ReGZ too, he's like "Seriously?" when Bright says if he's good with using it.
I swear....the finances and economics in UC gundam make no sense. Why would the Zeta Gundam or transformation systems be expensive?
Anaheim Electronics is a multi-trillion operation that has their own private colonies, factories, and cities on the Moon. They have so much influence that they can manipulate governments to do what they want. Plus economies of scale make things much cheaper since you are mass producing it.
The Titans themselves had most of their fleet using Transformation type mobile suits in the mid UC 0080s. We already see transformation systems on mass produced suits like the Zeta Plus series, Ashimars, Rezel, etc.
If I here "too expensive" one more time I'm going to bang my head against the wall. That excuse only worked during the One Year War when the Federation was on the brink of destruction and needed to pump out GMs as quickly and simply as possible. This excuse doesn't fly in any other conflict.
There can be a lot more moving parts and joints that all need to work well for it to not gum up the works. The extra costs come in the form of not just needing more parts than a non-transforming suit, but also more man-hours spent on manufacturing and then assembly. Then you need to have technicians spend more labor hours on maintenance or hire more technicians to try to finish more maintenance in the same amount of time. Look at how many moving parts or joints a basic Zaku or GM might have, and then compare that to the Zeta's number of moving and shifting body parts and panels as per attached pic.
>Plus economies of scale make things much cheaper since you are mass producing it.
That only works best when it's a mass market product that can be quickly built and more units are always needed. If no one wants or needs to continuously buy them, what's the point of setting up massive production lines? Maybe if the OYW never ended then sure, but all of the smaller conflicts afterward are a lot tinier. OYW production numbers are like maybe 4000 Zakus, 500 GMs, and ~165 Gelgoogs. Total production numbers for the Zeta Plus, Asshimar, etc like are like what, 20 to 30 units each? The Titans' other stuff like the Gabthley and Hambrabi are essentially prototype custom MS, no more than maybe 3 to 5 units of each.
>The Titans themselves had most of their fleet using Transformation type mobile suits in the mid UC 0080s.
No. Their mainline suit is the Hizack, then the Marasai, and maybe the Barzam. The Titans started in 0084 or 0085, but their first transforming suit isn't until midway into the show which is 0087. They did not have many transforming units in grunt hands, and even then a lot of them were also simple-ass designs like making the suit lie prone and then folding its limbs back. Comparatively, stuff like the Zeta where the chest unfolds open, the head lowers down, and then the backpack swaps to the other side of the chest is kind of a nightmare.
>but their first transforming suit isn't until midway into the show which is 0087
asshimars were developed in UC0084 and the Gaplant was developed in UC0085
9 months ago
Anonymous
My mistake, for some reason I thought the Messala was first.
>OYW production numbers are like maybe 4000 Zakus, 500 GMs, and ~165 Gelgoogs.
I have a vague memory of an old Gundam OYW book that said production numbers are in the tens of thousands for both sides. Zeon made like 8000+ for all Zaku 1, Zaku, 2 and all Zaku variants. 5000+ Doms and Rick Doms, and around 800 Gelgoog. While the Federation deployed 6000 GMs and 4000 Balls to attack Solomon and AL Baou Que.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Entertainment Bible 39 has those crazy numbers. They're so far out of wack that I don't really take them seriously. I mean, it's 4 GMs to a Salamis and 3 ZakusDoms to a Musai, I really don't think they have thousands of cruisers and transports taking part in those battles.
>Plus, Asshimar, etc like are like what, 20 to 30 units each? The Titans' other stuff like the Gabthley and Hambrabi are essentially prototype custom MS, no more than maybe 3 to 5 units of each.
It was my understanding that the Titans are basically a heavily armed and militarized police force. Similar in size (or maybe slightly smaller) than the normal Federation military. The Titans have forces stationed in every Federation base and every Colony. And that Anaheim Electronics has to supply all the Titan forces with suits like the Hizack and Marasai. Thats still a lot of units. Probably hundreds if not thousands of suits that have to be made to supply the Titans.
>The Titans started in 0084 or 0085, but their first transforming suit isn't until midway into the show which is 0087.
If we aren't counting manga, then sure.
>They did not have many transforming units in grunt hands
The Asshimar was mass produced on large scale. So it doesn't make sense for Anaheim to complain about Regz being too complicated and expensive when we have far more complicated suits like Asshimar and Anksha running around in the universe. The Regz is far less complicated than those suits.
The Titans are essentially special forces, not military police.
>Similar in size (or maybe slightly smaller) than the normal Federation military.
I don't think this is the case. If they were just as large then they could handle entire operations themselves without involving the EFF. Instead, in the show they're occasionally assisted by regular EFF forces or and later on they bully the Republic of Zeon into providing supplies.
>Probably hundreds if not thousands of suits that have to be made to supply the Titans.
Fleet sizes for the Titans put them at 100 ships and 300 MS total at the height of their power late in the show.
>The Asshimar was mass produced on large scale.
Again, no it isn't. Why are you ignoring this?
https://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=11881
NRX-044 Asshimar: about 20 produced (B-CLUB issue 72).
>The Regz is far less complicated than those suits.
I think they didn't like the disposable single-use backpack that allowed only a one-time transformation from fighter to MS mode. They did end up approving the ReZEL which does have a reusable transformation and carries heavier weapons loads to complement the more basic Jegans, and quite a lot were built since the Nahel Argama carried a bunch that got shot down and then received replacement ReZELs, and the General Revil flagship carried quite a lot of them as well.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>Fleet sizes for the Titans put them at 100 ships and 300 MS total at the height of their power late in the show.
Zeta gave me the impression the Titans had more. 100 ships and 300 MS isn't enough to have forces stationed at every single Federation base in Earth (including Kiliminjaro, Dakar, and Jaburo), every Side, every major Colony, The cities on Moon, Gate of Zedan, Konpei Island, and several other Asteroid bases. These are vast distances. And many of these bases are huge. I don't believe the Titans would leave Konpei Island and Gate of Zedan 90% empty with only a few ships guarding it.
This is just speculation, but I always figured that the Titans were modeled in a similar way to the Empire in Star Wars. And the AEUG was the rebels. The Titans had a lot of forces and ships, but most of them were tied down doing guard duty at various bases. They couldnt leave. The Titans can't assign every single ship they have to chase the AEUG. These ships and forces must police the colonies and be stationed at bases to maintain Titan authority. So the Titans have only one major space fleet that's mobile and can travel all over, and that's the one we see during the TV show.
Meanwhile the AEUG has no major bases to guard. So they can concentrate their forces and run around freely. They can attack and run away. Hit and Run tactics which mess with the Titans.
>NRX-044 Asshimar: about 20 produced (B-CLUB issue 72).
Because those numbers don't line up with the shows. We saw several Titans using them in Zeta, and later Neo Zeon used them as well after capturing Titan's bases. Then Anaheim Electronics captured some upgraded them tok, and also mass produced the Anksha in Unicorn. A mere 20 Asshimar isn't enough to cover all that. The only way 20 units makes sense is if that was only the initial batch of Asshimar for testing, and then it went into full mass production.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>100 ships and 300 MS isn't enough to have forces stationed at every single Federation base
They don't need to be stationed at every single Federation base. The Federation can station Federation troops at every Federation base.
>I don't believe the Titans would leave Konpei Island and Gate of Zedan 90% empty with only a few ships guarding it.
Technically Gryps conflict is a small civil war
The Titans are allied with the Federation for the vast majority of the show, though. Boring work duties like base guard, rear line reserves, supply escorts can be left to the regular forces. People who willingly joined the Titans thought they were getting into a cushy position and fighting against Federation dissidents, not the boring duties. E.g., read the description for the GM Quel Konpeito base version:
https://www.mahq.net/rgm-79q-confeito/
>This is just speculation, but I always figured that the Titans were modeled in a similar way to the Empire in Star Wars. And the AEUG was the rebels. The Titans had a lot of forces and ships, but most of them were tied down doing guard duty at various bases.
You're not wrong. Similarly the AEUG were also small underdog resistance fighters not totally dissimilar to the Rebel alliance. In that vein, we do see in the show that sometimes the Titans despite being the larger force, still lose to the AEUG sometimes due to incompetence.
>Because those numbers don't line up with the shows. We saw several Titans using them in Zeta, and later Neo Zeon used them as well after capturing Titan's bases. >A mere 20 Asshimar isn't enough to cover all that.
I mean if you have a count then feel free to share, but I don't think it adds up to more than 20. MAHQ and Gundam Wiki list the pilots who have used the Asshimar and it totals five, six people across animation and manga. Maybe two or three more Asshimars show up in the background of a group shot in ZZ, but it was never common enough to show up in every battle of Zeta or something.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Different anon here. If you look at Gundam manga it shows a bunch of Asshimar suits. It definitely gives the impression it was semi-mass produced for Earth defense. Plus Neo Zeon was able to use them in space somehow.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Which manga? I'm open to the idea of them mass producing the Asshimar since it's supposed to be a less complex design despite not using a movable frame, and the Anksha is clearly meant to be a reworked Asshimar that does get mass produced as an atmospheric counterpart to the space-only ReZEL. I just haven't seen that many examples of Asshimars, that's all.
>Plus, Asshimar, etc like are like what, 20 to 30 units each? The Titans' other stuff like the Gabthley and Hambrabi are essentially prototype custom MS, no more than maybe 3 to 5 units of each.
It was my understanding that the Titans are basically a heavily armed and militarized police force. Similar in size (or maybe slightly smaller) than the normal Federation military. The Titans have forces stationed in every Federation base and every Colony. And that Anaheim Electronics has to supply all the Titan forces with suits like the Hizack and Marasai. Thats still a lot of units. Probably hundreds if not thousands of suits that have to be made to supply the Titans.
>The Titans started in 0084 or 0085, but their first transforming suit isn't until midway into the show which is 0087.
If we aren't counting manga, then sure.
>They did not have many transforming units in grunt hands
The Asshimar was mass produced on large scale. So it doesn't make sense for Anaheim to complain about Regz being too complicated and expensive when we have far more complicated suits like Asshimar and Anksha running around in the universe. The Regz is far less complicated than those suits.
>feds >expenses
I can see it. Still don’t think they were in the red financially. I always see the federation as abundant with a huge budget like the US in IRL. They just take the frugal route and spend their budget on silly things like fly mantas, shitty Salamis, Type 66 tanks, the dish.
Expanding the GM line was the smartest thing they did. But, I’ll give credit when it’s due. The Feds could have taken more risks to improve their lineup like Zeon. The strategy of overpowering via numbers like the Russians, would have worked better if they used better machines. Can you imagine if they mass produced a workable version of Blue Destiny?
Fast forward, even if the Alex was trashed. Still didn’t mean it couldn’t be repaired. G-3 was experimental, but it would have been more beneficial in the long run to field.
Ultimately, it would have helped a frickton if the federation actually trained their pilots more effectively rather than shove them in a ball and boot them out
>The Feds could have taken more risks to improve their lineup like Zeon. The strategy of overpowering via numbers like the Russians, would have worked better if they used better machines.
Give Bandai some more time and they'll work out some more variants. There are almost as many GM variants as there are Zaku variants, and the basic GM is at least better than the Zaku in most respects, on par with the Rick Dom, and somewhat under a Gelgoog. It's the "good enough for most cases" grunt but always depicted as taking a beating in animation because while Zeon has lower end MS that can be shown exploding on screen and no one bats an eye, whenever we see GMs explode it must be because all GMs suck.
>Can you imagine if they mass produced a workable version of Blue Destiny?
It wasn't for lack of trying. There's the whole Pale Rider lineup, and then over the years they've invested a bit into the NITRO program with the Delta Kai and Proto-ZZ.
>Ultimately, it would have helped a frickton if the federation actually trained their pilots more effectively rather than shove them in a ball and boot them out
I don't get the feeling that the Fed pilots were that bad. Usually we only ever hear about how Zeon suffered in the end because despite rolling out Gelgoogs to as many aces as they could, they still ended up in the hands of mostly new recruits. Similarly Axis and Neo Zeon developed high spec MS that definitely beat out the upgraded GMs that the Feds were fielding, but apparently many were still in the hands of inexperienced pilots, so when they came up against decent enemies with decent MS (AEUG, Londo Bell) they tended to lose miserably while the actual vets in Neo Zeon would at least survive.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>I don't get the feeling that the Fed pilots were that bad
Feddie pilots had no experience at Solomon and some, not all, had one major battle under their belts at ABQ. Many others had no real experience at ABQ since only part of the EFSF navy took part in Solomon. Not to mention many were earthnoids who were launching directly from Jaburo where their main ship manufacturing center was. The thing about zeeks only having fresh recruits left is just cope
9 months ago
Anonymous
Fed MS pilots are supposedly recruited from their airforce and tank units so they could be expected to have some level of competency even if trained in an unrelated field, and had the advantage of Amuro's learning computer data.
Zeeks only having fresh recruits left is canon cope, mind you.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>tank units so they could be expected to have some level of competency even if trained in an unrelated field
Nah. Piloting a mobile suit is different than a tank. MS Igloo even states there were washouts from the MS training program. They couldn't adapt to piloting a mobile suits. And as the war dragged on, new Federation pilots became younger and younger. Some coming straight out of the academy with zero experience. Or just drafted from civilian life.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>Nah. Piloting a mobile suit is different than a tank. MS Igloo even states there were washouts from the MS training program.
Except for the Federation's tank MS. I'd argue that tank drivers might be somewhat adaptable to ground combat MS while air force would more easily adapt to space combat MS. That said, any program will have some failures, I wouldn't expect a 100% success rate even given how dire the situation gets in the war. Anyway, the point was that if they were suitable to pass basic military aptitude tests and be sent to pilot and tank crew schooling, there's no reason why they couldn't be reassigned to MS pilot instead as the war went on and Zeon mostly but not entirely retreated from the Earth, as opposed to having to screen and test civilian recruits from the very beginning to see what sort of aptitude they have.
>And as the war dragged on, new Federation pilots became younger and younger. Some coming straight out of the academy with zero experience.
Thunderbolt also introduces the idea of the Feds having to draw on student recruits too.
>Or just drafted from civilian life
Given the size of the OYW, a draft is pretty much inevitable.
9 months ago
Anonymous
We've seen plane and tank controls and they're not translatable to MS piloting
9 months ago
Anonymous
I said competency, not MS piloting skill. It just means that it's quicker to move existing military personnel to a different field because they're already in your system and you already have a file on their aptitudes, rather than only recruiting completely new people that need to be tested (ASVAB, fitness testing, etc), then basic training, and then onto specialized schools.
9 months ago
Anonymous
Always loved that casual teamkill by Char. Not even a cutaway to him going "Ah for frick sakes," the poor shit is disposed of and forgotten like garbage.
9 months ago
Anonymous
>GMs suck
I agree. It’s just a bunch of zeonwank and overplayed.
>I don’t get the feeling fed pilots were that bad.
>I don't get the feeling that the Fed pilots were that bad
Feddie pilots had no experience at Solomon and some, not all, had one major battle under their belts at ABQ. Many others had no real experience at ABQ since only part of the EFSF navy took part in Solomon. Not to mention many were earthnoids who were launching directly from Jaburo where their main ship manufacturing center was. The thing about zeeks only having fresh recruits left is just cope
This anon is right, but I was hinting at Zeon having top aces like: Char, Shin Mastsunaga, Johnny Ridden, Gabby Hazard, Gato, Doan (in the new movie), Chalia Bull, Garma, Dozle, Ramba Ral, Tri stars, shit goes on and on for just the OYW.
Meanwhile, the Federation only recognized the WB crew as aces until we come across Shiro, Yuu Kajima, Rayer, Tenneth A Jung, Lydo Wolff, Bork Cry, Matt Healy, Yazan, you could argue Burning is one too. But a lot of these guys don’t get a spotlight until later. Most are just a bunch of kids that get owned
Fed MS pilots are supposedly recruited from their airforce and tank units so they could be expected to have some level of competency even if trained in an unrelated field, and had the advantage of Amuro's learning computer data.
Zeeks only having fresh recruits left is canon cope, mind you.
>zeeks having fresh recruits
Makes sense given that most of their top aces waste their time on WB and die in the process. The others get caught up in their own missions like Nimbus, Visch.
Doesn’t mean shit when they lose A Baoa Qu. It’s a lack of leadership too
Char in Sazabi would have crushed him there if he wasn't half assing it because he wanted Nu Gundam to be ready first so they could have a fair fight. He was not using Sazabi's full power there at all, Gyunei even calls him out for not using more than one funnel against him.
Sure it's name stands for "Refined Gundam Zeta", but is the Re-GZ actually treated as a Gundam-type in-universe? AFAIK Londo Bell just treated it like it's just another machine, though with good specs at least, and Gyunei called it a Gundam wannabe
Would have been cool if they just had Amuro piloting the actual Zeta at the start of CCA, then it would have been used by all three protags up til that point.
On paper its stats are actually quite high for an MS meant for more mass production even in just MS mode. Its thruster power alone actually exceeds a lot of more “legit” Gundams. On top of everything it has a simplified Biosensor in Beltorchika’s Children which arguably helps save the passenger(s).
For all intents and purposes it’s actually a superb all round high speed MS, it’s just burdened with one of the dumbest “cost effective” gimmicks in the UC with the BWS, and later burdened with an incompetent pilot for some reason (but I guess Londo Bell had few options. Man Emma, if only you’d stayed in the damn wienerpit).
It was really just an MS that couldn’t catch a lucky break after Amuro moved to Nu Gundam, but it’s not on the MS’s performance itself. Hell I’d bet an issue is that it’s so high performance that finding qualified pilots to bring out its potential is probably hard, hence why they had to settle for Mrs Deathflag McDoomed.
Why the Federation would abandon even its solid MS form though is beyond me but they’re cheapskates afterall.
Even in BC, Beltorchika took out the psycho doga with it which is an impressive feat. It really didn’t need the BWS because it was already an excellent commanders unit for jegan squads but it’s poor reputation allowed Londo bell to get a true MP transforming mobile suit being the REZEL
>Why the Federation would abandon even its solid MS form though is beyond me but they’re cheapskates afterall.
It's apparently a really expensive suit and that's the whole reason it wasn't mass-produced
How is it "technically" if it got stripped of that title? Or do you mean "was" instead of "is"?
Well Londo Bell was pretty understaffed. They only had what? 3 ships?
[...] >they made a dozen or so of him, they would be able to wreck a Federation fleet on their own.
That's too dangerous and crazy expensive. 1 cyber newtype like Gyunei is bad enough. But 12? They would all go wild and gas eachother up and cause chaos. They would be completely uncontrollable.
>Well Londo Bell was pretty understaffed. They only had what? 3 ships?
Also they put out a request for support from the other EFSF fleets but IIRC they said most of them were busy or ignored it. One of the other side garrisons had a laser cannon (I guess for blowing up orbital debris?) but it got taken out by a suicidal Neo Zeon attack before it could do very much to 5th Luna.
ReGZ isnt a Gundam. A Gundam is a title given usually to a cutting edge suit in terms of technology. Or has some sort of special weapon.
ReGZ is a limited mass production suit. It's highly streamlined for budgetary and cost reasons. It's still a level above ordinary grunt suits. Probably something you would give to squad leader. But it's not a Gundam. However, I respect this suit even more because it's not a Gundam. A well trained pilot can use it to face off against enemies using advanced suits. When a pilot does well with ReGZ, I am pleased.
Seems like a huge waste of money just to make only 2 Regz. You gotta retool your entire production line everytime you make a new suit. It's not worth it unless you at least make a small batch.
I think it's more likely that Anaheim made a small batch of Regz . Maybe a few dozen (max) Regz were made, and deployed some them throughout the Federation for testing purposes, and to get feedback from various EF units (including Londo Bell). But they also kept some of them in storage. Remember that the Federation is huge. We're talking thousands of EF mobile suits and probably hundreds of ships all spread out between the colonies, asteroids, and Earth. So having a few dozen Regz isn't far fetched.
Whenever one Regz gets damaged they can pull a spare in storage or can pull spare parts from one not being used. Eventually spare parts run out and the Regz gets retired from active service. Sort of like what happened with America's F-22 Raptor fighter jet. Only about 190 F-22's were ever made due to it being too expensive, but 1/3rd are kept grounded and used for spare parts. So maybe only 120 units can ever actually be launched at anytime.
>Seems like a huge waste of money just to make only 2 Regz. You gotta retool your entire production line everytime you make a new suit. It's not worth it unless you at least make a small batch.
Oh man, you have no idea how many Fed prototypes and preproduction models there are that never got a continuation because of one little phrase: rejected for high cost.
Besides, they don't actually need to build an entire production line for every different MS design. Odds are that the first units were put together in a hangar workshop rather than rolling off a continuous assembly line. The Nu Gundam and various other prototypes were constructed that way, they didn't didn't come from a mass production line.
>rejected for high cost
Hindsight 20/20, but high cost usually pays off. Also, I know it is supposed to show that the Feds are becoming more incompetent. However if they were basing this off real world militaries, cost would not be the issue. They’d still be making that prototype
UC-wise, I'd say the MK-II
Every other episode it was missing a limb or something,
I guess you could solely blame the pilot but for a MS that was supposed to be the flagship of the Titans got BTFO fairly quickly during the whole conflict and they resorted to using other MS.
I'm surprised the concept of the Regz detachable backpack didn't take off. It opens so many possibilities of using different backpack designs. One for missiles. One for beams. One for extra long range artillery. Another for funnels. Another for long range travel like a sled loaded with extra fuel. Etc. The Federation was foolish for not exploring the idea more. The Regz doesn't HAVE to transform because the modular backpack is a better idea.
>The Regz doesn't HAVE to transform because the modular backpack is a better idea.
I don't know if it is a better idea, but it help them get past the transformation problem. They wanted a Zeta Gundam mobile suit without the cost or engineering problems of a transformation, hence the "Refine".
The problem was once the Re-GZ seperates from the Back Weapon System for battle:
1) You lose firepower. The main cannon, the Mega Beam Cannon, of the BWS is comparable to Zeta Gundam's Hyper Mega Launcher, but the Re-GZ cannot use it at all after separation. The Zeta Gundam could use its Hyper Mega Launcher in either Wave Rider and mobile suit modes.
2) which brings us to the point that the BWS is completely vulnerable after separation. There is no pilot in the BWS, it cannot fly on its own, so it has to get retrieved after a battle, and very likely shot at, destroyed at or stolen by enemies. That gets expensive...you can leave base jabbers out their because they are made cheaply, but the BWS is more expensive because of the weaponry and probably higher performance flight capabilities it had compared to a base jabber. Leaving that floating in the battlefield hoping it does not get damage till a Jegan retrieves it is not too practical.
The Gundam Frames are stronger than their own armor. The upgrades of the Barbatos are specifically said to use lighter armor. Unlike UC's paper armor IBO suits can generally take tons of hits and keep going with or without additional armor because the basic MS material is already incredibly durable and everything is slathered in nanolaminate.
Their biggest defensive bonus is that the reactors in IBO are totally unbreachable and indestructible which means no matter how battered the MS gets it will never just blow up no matter hard it gets hit unlike every other universe where a serious hit will usually make the whole MS blow
>reactors in IBO are totally unbreachable and indestructible
Where was this stated and how can it even be indestructible? I don't remember this shit about ahab reactors
I believe that aspect was implied in the show where functioning ahab reactors from abandoned MS wrecks emitting ahab waves causes debris clusters around them.
The indestructible thing is only outright stated in the technical sidebooks but it's consistant in show that no MS ever explodes no matter how much it gets messed up and the reactors are still running even after hundreds of years and even if they've been in MS's wrecked during the war.
So yeah they never get damaged and never run out of power
The only transformable suit that was mass produced on a scale high enough to make up the bulk of an army was the Gaza C, which was cheap AND transformable but also a massive piece of shit. Honestly the Feds should have tried perfecting the Gaza to be useable if they wanted a mass produced transformable suit. And not the Gaza D that thing is loaded with enough ballistic firepower that it probably triples the cost
>Feds should use the Gaza
My friend, we feds frick up many times for not fully utilizing Zeon MS even in post war / next war conflicts. It’s pure cringe.
Don’t you Zaku in 0083 me, brother or even raise me a “but they used a rebuilt Big Zam in rebellion, Keith used a Gelgoog, and Io in uses Zeong.
I’m talking like at the start of 0080, use zakus to train your new pilots, Doms, and especially Gelgoogs. If there were no physical units left, I’d seized the plans.
Going to gryps and post gryps, it’s silly to see that you don’t have more MS variety like Gazas, Marasai, R-Jaja
Even if you don’t use them, it would benefit you greatly to understand them or at least reverse engineer them to make your next suits better
But they do? The Feds even keep certain Zeon factories open to produce Act Zakus, Galbaldy types, Zaku Mariners, etc for their own use.
https://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?p=248740&sid=da0a3071231e9a9bb21859a7f6b33a1b#p248740 >...It was also necessary for the Federation Forces to maintain the captured factories that had produced Zaku-series machines, and to prevent the loss of their engineers. Also, the Federation Forces had many pilots who preferred the Principality machines, thanks to their use as pilot trainers and aggressors immediately after the war. In fact, even purebred Federation Forces aces weren't that picky about Federation versus Principality machines, saying they wanted to "try them out" for themselves. It also appears that some Federation engineers wanted to pass on this ease of production and Zaku construction knowhow to all future mobile suits, and there's no telling how great an impact their analysis of fundamental Principality mobile suit technologies such as the fluid pulse system and monocoque construction had on the development of later machines.
>Going to gryps and post gryps, it’s silly to see that you don’t have more MS variety like Gazas, Marasai, R-Jaja
The problem is that the Titans ruined it for the Feds, anything with a Zeon-style monoeye became poison and had to be swept away and gotten rid of. That's why the Feds (or was it Anaheim?) end up selling the Hobby Hizack off as a "sports MS" in clown colours.
Nah, MP Gundams from 08th MS Team spec wise and regular Victories material wise
>MP Gundams from 08th MS Team
Those are not even Gundams, they slapped a Gundam head on Ground GMs as psychological warfare.
You have the development backwards. The Ground Gundams are made of leftover project V parts and they do have their own model number and development codenames as Gundams. The Ground GMs were also approved since they were worried that the limited number of Ground Gundams that could be built would not be enough, and both designs were rolled out of the factories and into combat at about the same time.
>not even Gundams,
Check the gunpla box. The box for the RX-79[G] calls it a Gundam.
The RGZ-91 box does not.
There is no other requirement.
Gundam Mk II gets outclassed pretty early on.
Ground Gundams weren't all that special
Gun-Ezs if they count
frick no the Gun EZ is a pretty strong suit, it was still getting deployed by the end of the series, even wrecking top of the line Zanscare MS, I mean the Gunblastor is basically the same shit so it counts
>Gundam Mk II gets outclassed pretty early on.
I never understood this, and i cannot remember if this was addressed in Zeta.
Did the Titans just not give a shit about the Gundam name? Why would you make the follow up to the most powerful mobile suit in history something so mid?
>Did the Titans just not give a shit about the Gundam name?
My dude, they made 2 extra Gundams after the MK-II both of which were quite fearsome in their own right.
Because of the Movable Frame.
Basically they had a revolutionary new frame designed as part of the RX-178 which they then realized could actually facilitate transformable MS which the RX-178 was not designed for. Active development on the RX-178 then stopped early and the three prototypes were just used as testbeds while the engineers went back to the drawing board to try and get a working Delta Gundam instead. This failed, and the prototype was eventually assembled as the non-transformable Hyaku Shiki and they went with the Methuss platform as a workable transforming MS whose base design became the basis for a bunch of other transforming MS. Then after Kamille Bidan changed the game again with the design of the Zeta Gundam they applied some of his ideas to the Delta Gundam design and eventually got the Delta Plus.
tl;dr: Gundam Mk II got left behind because of the new and tasty transformables
At least it has the Super Gundam docking, Super Gundam is cool as hell.
I guess that makes some sense in the way that you look at a lot of the Titan mobile suits and some do transform, Asshimar, Gabthley, Hambrabi. So the preference for those suits to get tech for the best performance could explain why MK-II was the ignored child of the family and suffered performance wise.
I guess also the fact that you couldnt really have the MK-II be a dominate mobile suit in the second half of Zeta or in ZZ because they needed to show the Zeta and the ZZ as bad ass in their own shows, plus you have the Hyaku Shiki, so the MK-II sort of had to be good but not too good to let the Zeta boys shine in their own shows.
It's still one of my favorite Gundam designs, even if it was never the dominant Gundam like the Nu or F91 were.
Actually 0083 Gundam Gp01 was the real followup. It was pretty mid all things considered.
To be fair, they did say "in history". the Gp01 no longer exists according to the history of the UC timeline.
The GP series gets erased because it was considered a complete failure. Despite having good concepts and yielding the only EF MA for a long ass time.
Which is fricking stupid. MAs still prove to be quite useful despite their gimmicky size
The problem with mobile armors is that as mobile suit technology improved, they became an evolutionary dead end.
Beam weapons? Practically standardized by the time of the Gryps War
Heavy armor? Negated due to the proliferation of beam weaponry
Heavier overall firepower? Became possible to mount more, stronger weapons on mobile suits due to increasingly powerful reactors
Remote weapons? Became possible at a much more efficient scale with mobile suits due to psycommu
I-Fields? Became scaled down for mobile suit use, then became redundant when beam shields started being a thing
Multiple modes? Movable frame technology allowed it to be scaled down to mobile suits.
Actual atmospheric flight? Minovsky Craft System was eventually miniaturized for mobile suit usage, then had derivatives like the Minovsky Drive and Minovsky Flight System
This isn't even mentioning the fact that when they were used, they were really only ever effective as a shock weapon. Like sure, the first time that a mobile armor is deployed you're going to have the enemy scrambling to figure out what the hell it is and try to organize a response, taking a ton of casualties. But that's only for the first time. Once the enemy has had the time to pick apart a mobile armor, the next time they encounter it they're going to prioritize destroying it and wipe the floor with it. We've quite literally seen it happen over and over.
Not really. Every tech advancement you mentioned can also be added to Mobile Armors. The problem is that Gundam only shows us when mobile Armors lose against the hero main character. They never show us the 20 other times that mobile Armors are effective.
The only time I can remember when Mobile Armors succeeded was in 0083 when Gato destroyed 2 Federation fleets with the Neue Ziel, smashed the Solar System control ship, and then defeated Uraki in a 1v1 duel.
I mean in side material the Titans developed a transformable Gundam MKIII, but because side material for this series is so fricking scattered or inaccessible I refuse to acknowledge its existence.
Regardless, aside from the Pysco Gundams like
mentioned, I don't think the Titans were ever actually intent on following up on the "Gundam name." The Gundam MKII wasn't really meant to do that either, it was just built as a testbed/working prototype for movable frame technology. I imagine the reason the MKII was was called a Gundam at all was because people considered it eponymous with the idea of high performance mobile suits.
Tristan, it’s literally made of junk parts.
considering how much damage it can take while still being functional, I'd say it's pretty hardy
CCA was really good at showing how mobile suits in general are pretty resilient.
I don't think the shows ever did that too often, but in CCA you had people sortieing in Jegans and Re-GZs with missing parts and stuff, it was neat and added to the sense of desperation and resource scarcity.
>CCA was really good at showing how mobile suits in general are pretty resilient.
And then this shit happened
what you never seen 200mm vulcans before?
yes
Amuro took on the top 2 zeon MS with it and did well against them, so no.
pretty much this yeah
With a decent pilot its kinda nutty how good it was
Calling a Jagd Doga a top Zeon MS is pretty dumb
It's just a very mundane Newtype MS
>The Jagd Doga's sensors, thrusters, and nuclear reactor have also been significantly improved compared to those on Geara Doga. As a result, it has greater speed and mobility, and more power for its weapons and other systems. In terms of performance, the Jagd Doga was the second most powerful mobile suit in the Newborn Neo Zeon's arsenal, second only to the MSN-04 Sazabi.
An improved Geara Doga isn't impressive
The Geara Dogas were already very mediocre
>NUH-UH
jesus chirst /m/
kys feddie scum
>The Geara Dogas were already very mediocre
Compared to Jegans? They were about the same. But they stomp. Nemos and GM IIIs. Jeans werent mass produced yet in CCA. Only Londo Bell had most of them.
Mediocre in that technically most of the NZ suits from ZZ outspec the Geara Doga in firepower or even just in general.
>But they stomp. Nemos and GM IIIs. Jeans werent mass produced yet in CCA. Only Londo Bell had most of them.
Well they only really ever fight Jegans, they might have fought GM IIIs at some point but not on screen, and they'll probably never fight a Nemo. In a hypothetical fight the Doga isn't even that much better than the Nemo. The Nemo should be slighter faster than the Doga due to a better thrust-to-weight ratio, while the Doga might be slightly more agile since it's got more maneuvering thrusters and weighs slight less. The ways in which the Doga does stand out are that it carries more disposable firepower in the form of sturm faust rockets and it's got newer avionics like the arm raker-type wienerpit, but those don't really decide a fight on their own.
>Well they only really ever fight Jegans, they might have fought GM IIIs at some point but not on screen, and they'll probably never fight a Nemo.
By the time we see CCA, we're already in the middle of the conflict. It's implied Char's fleet has been operating and dropping small asteroids for a while. And Londo Bell was desperately playing catch up. Char just needed one more big Asteroid (Axis) to finish the job.
So im sure their encountered GM IIi and Nemo units at some point. Yet the Geara Dogas always came out on top. Plus attacking Luna 2 was no easy task even with the element of surprise. It's still a Federation fortress. It probably had a wide assortment of units including Jegans, GM IIIs, and Nemos. Yet the Geara Doga came out on top every time.
Nemos are not part of the EF space fleet. Even Karaba standardized on GM IIIs during ZZ, and the only Nemos seen after the Gryps conflict are on Earth in Unicorn. We never see or hear of Nemos deployed in space after the Gryps conflict.
There is a good chance that Geara Dogas fought GM IIIs, but it never happens onscreen. Even when Char raids Luna II, the only EFSF MS onscreen are all Jegans, not even the GM III shows up. When a bunch of GM IIIs show up near the end of the movie, they don't engage with Char's forces but go straight to pushing Axis.
Nemos are seen being used by the EFF in Unicorn.
>Nemos are not part of the EF space fleet.
There is absolutely no way you can say that with 100% certaintity. The EF is vast and loves to reuse equipment until it's beyond obselete.
They probably cut Nemo Production short anyways once Axis Zeon threw in the towel in order to push for Jegan production and to try and desperately move for some sort of standardization to end the logistical hell they were starting to get and to save money by going towards a new sheet suit (which later had suits built off it's core body for parts commonality)
We see Nemos being used in Gundam NT and Gundam Unicorn.
This is why I said Nemos are only seen in use on Earth, not the space fleet. In CCA we saw that the EF space fleets operate a mix of GM IIIs and Jegans, with more important units such as Londo Bell prioritized to receive Jegans first to the point that they are already ONLY operating Jegans, there are no GM IIIs in Bright's Londo Bell detachment and when they stop at Londenion to pick up extra units in anticipation of the final assault on Axis, it is still an all-Jegan force (not counting the Re-GZ and Nu Gundam of course). In Unicorn which takes place 3 years later, the only GMs we see are GM IIs and GM IIIs which are on Earth. All of the EF space forces from unit that chases the Garancieres, to the Nahel Argama and the reinforcements it receives, to the General Revil, are equipped with Jegans as their oldest unit, while the Nahel Argama and General Revil are equipped with the newer ReZELs.
At no point do we ever see a Nemo operated in space by the Feds in animation, it is only seen on Earth.
>We see Nemos being used in Gundam NT and Gundam Unicorn.
When did a Nemo show up in Narrative?
I am not those anons but I will say if we see Nemos being used on Earth then there is a high likelyhood they are being used in space as well. Maybe not on the front lines or in elite squads, but probably for patrol duties in less important areas. If we include manga, then yeah the EF is still using Nemos. But not everyone likes including manga sources.
I believe the only time we ever really see GM IIIs in space during Unicorn was acting as security / escort during the resupply and repairing of the Nahel Argama at the end of the second OVA.
4 ships (Ra Cailum and 3 Clops) and "20" MSs, but naturally Londo Bell basically strapped on as many Jegans they could during the assault on Axis since there is no way they'd be evenly matched against Neo Zeon's supposed 80+ MSs and Alpha Azieru
Ra Calium has 6 ramps but barely any MS to justify having so many.
I believe you are referring to the Nahel Argama that has 6 ramps (5 front with 2 upside down and 1 on the rear), but I don't think most ships at that time use the ramp on the back for anything but returning / landing. Even then I always thought how the upside down catapult doesn't really make sense since I would assume there's still a lot of work need to be done to turn your MS upside down inside the ship.
>He can't track conversations correctly
I was responding to his statement about Unicorn specifically, not CCA.
>6 ramps
>hardly any MS pilots
It is almost as if RC was intended to host Amuro, Kamille, Judau, and more
Six ramps? I count two forward-facing catapults on the dorsal side. There's a hangar hatch on the ventral side but no catapult/ramp. Then one rear hatch with a shortened deck. Where are the other ramps?
I reread and someone said it was the Nahel Argama that has 6. My bad
The Nahel Argama isn't justified having so many catapults either. Why does it need 6 catapults to launch 12 mobile suits?
In an emergency situation like getting ambushed or if the radar is down because of minovsky particles, getting your own MS out ASAP to take care of enemies or provide protection is a good idea. That said, most ships get by just fine with two catapults and a siderear hatch or two. It's usually only the large ships that carry an absurd number of MS that need to worry about the number of catapults being a bottleneck.
I could see 3 or maybe 4 catapults. But 6 catapults??? For only 12 mobile suits? What a waste of space. That deck space could be used for so many other things. More guns, more AA defense, more armor, and/or more living space. Look at the Ra Calium. 2 launch catapults and 1 rear recovery ramp for like 30 mobile suits. Yet no issues with launching suits and has much more armor.
The Nahel Argama has two upside down catapults under the two in the front and it was supposed to have retrofitted after the first Neo Zeon War to house more mobile suits (12 to 16), but from the callsigns shown in the Unicorn OVA indicates the ship itself have around 20 Mobile Suits with 12 ReZELs, 6 Jegans, and 2 EWAC Jegans before taking the ECOAS units into consideration (at least 4 Jegan De and whatever amount of Lotos they brought along).
>Look at the Ra Calium. 2 launch catapults and 1 rear recovery ramp for like 30 mobile suits.
It at most had around 12~14 MS in Unicorn (all Jestas, that lone ReGZ, and Delta Plus before the brief taking in of Unicorn and Banshee), but the whole listed capacity had always been weird since the CCA movie brochure had Londo Bell with only 20 mobile suits (8 on Ra Kailum and 4 on its three Clops) going up against Neo Zeon's 80+ despite the fact that Londo Bell probably threw everything they had and we saw extra Jegans being stowed outside the ship.
There were GM III pushing Axis at the end of CCA you goof ball
I think you missed anon's point. He's saying the reason Char succeeded during the early part of the conflict was because he wasnt facing entire fleets of Jegans which are equal to Geara Dogas. Char's Geara Dogas were probably facing older units like Nemos and GM III units. When the Jegans started rolling out is when the Geara Dogas faced stiffer resistance.
>He's saying the reason Char succeeded during the early part of the conflict was because he wasnt facing entire fleets of Jegans which are equal to Geara Dogas.
Bright and Amuro were present for 5th Luna but they failed to stop it too
Well Londo Bell was pretty understaffed. They only had what? 3 ships?
>they made a dozen or so of him, they would be able to wreck a Federation fleet on their own.
That's too dangerous and crazy expensive. 1 cyber newtype like Gyunei is bad enough. But 12? They would all go wild and gas eachother up and cause chaos. They would be completely uncontrollable.
They had no trouble with the Puru line. Gyunei didn't even have any behavioral defects except for a giant ego which might stem from his original personality. That's already leaps and bounds ahead as an actual functioning person compared to Fed cyber newtypes that have split personalities, erased memories, and extreme brainwashing to the point of having verbal commands and thought patterns implanted into them for the express purpose of making them aggressive or shutdown as needed
Gyunei was obsessed with Quess after meeting her for 5 minutes. To the point that he was willing to spread rumors about Char and destroy Zeon moral. He wanted to be with Quess that badly. Hes not mentally stable.
Is there even anyone who is a 100% stable Cyber Newtype?
No, closest was Four. And we know how that turned out.
I mean from all that we saw Gates Capa was 100% stable.
...At least until Rosamia died and the psychic backlash fried his brain, but that's neither here nor there.
Was that because he was a Cyber Newtype, though? He had to hear the rumors from someone in the first place, presumably a non-Cyber Newtype. In at least Beltorchika's Children, Reizn states openly that it's a shame that Char is a e-girlcon. The whole Quess thing was a case of a Newtype connection either way. That's something even normal Newtypes are susceptible to, remember Hathaway's obsession with the same girl in CCA? Or Char and Amuro being obsessed with Lalah for far too long? Gyunei's problems are about the same as a normal Newtype, along with a huge ego from being second to Char among Neo Zeon's pilots. Considering how effective he is compared to the average pilot and the fact that Char could manipulate him into doing exactly what he wanted him in a few seconds, that generation of Cyber Newtypes weren't a dead end.
>Gyunei was obsessed with Quess after meeting her for 5 minutes.
Natural newtypes have also developed really strong bonds after meeting another newtype. Hell, Quess develops a minor schoolgirl crush on Amuro and gets pissy when Chan told her off in the Ra Cailum hangar. Then she met Char and developed a massive schoolgirl crush on him, enough to make her run away with him. However, it might be like that because the movie had a short runtime leaving less time for development for both. Glemmy for example is also obsessive about Roux, but it's not seen as a mental problem since it is partially some kind of love at first sight and the obsession develops over most of the entire show.
>To the point that he was willing to spread rumors about Char and destroy Zeon moral.
The rumors didn't start with Gyunei, it's kind of been following Char around for a couple of years. Spreading fud about his self-perceived rival is toxic, but not really psychotic.. yet.
>Hes not mentally stable.
He had vague ideas about wanting the Nu for himself so he could beat Char with it, but it never really happens. It's more like imaginary power fantasies about killing his boss and winning the attention/affection of the girl he works with. This is not actually mental instability, Gyunei is fairly consistent in his mind.
An actual example of a mentally unstable cyber newtype would be Rosamia. She changes personalities from "pilot wanting to prove her skills" to "mentally childish insisting that Kamille is her brother" and occasionally cries about the sky falling on her. Later after having more or less deceived people into thinking she wasn't a threat, she steals a Nemo out of just wanting to cling to Kamille who had to head out into battle, and even shoots down a enemy Hizack for him, but then shortly after she regains an adult composure and becomes hostile toward Kamille, declaring that she was ordered to kill him. She was intentionally brainwashed this way.
>The rumors didn't start with Gyunei
He spent a lot of time amplifying and spreading the rumors. He even told Quess to her face about it. Char had to confront Gyunei and tell him to stop and cut that nonsense out.
Glemmy accomplished far more in regards to rebelling against his leader and never stopped obsessing over Roux until she vaporized him with a beam rifle, but we don't call that mental instability. I mean it's an butthole move for sure, but Gyunei spreading rumors doesn't sound like mental instability to me.
It's a sub-point that you were nitpicking. It falls under the main point of Gyunei being obsessed with Quess while only knowing her for a few minutes.
The same way how Hathaway murdered Chan in cold blood because he was obsessed with Quess too.
So is being obsessed with someone after a relatively short period of time a natural newtype trait or a sign of crazy cyber newtype, or what?
>This is not actually mental instability
Gyunei literally grabbed an enemy pilot who was defeated and had surrendered. Then proceeded to crush her inner organs, break her bones, and snap her neck with his mobile suit's hand. All in an effort to steal Nu Gundam and "challenge" Char because he believed if he beat Char in mobile suit combat that Quess would fall in love with him.
I would call that Insanity.
Getting the Nu Gundam would be a big win for Zeon, though. It's not crazy to take a hostage then follow up on your threat to show you're serious. Evil, maybe, but not crazy.
He wasn't doing it for Zeon. He was doing it to win over a girl he knew for 10 minutes.
You made up half those details. Gyunei did not take pleasure in the moment and it was NOT an intentional slow crush meant to inflict maximum pain. He did not crush her organs or break her bones. When Gyunei decides that Amuro is resisting too much, he whips the hand holding Keyra in a circular motion then tosses Keyra aside.
Gyunai literally says he's going to kill her if Amuro doesn't surrender Nu Gundam. Then his mobile suit hand squeezes her slowly, crushing her body and organs, and she screams in pain. Amuro yells for him to stop and surrenders. Gyunei orders Amuro to be electrocuted and killed. Nu Gundam's funnels activate and fire on the electric wires shocking Nu Gundam. Gyunei shakes her and flings her body away which snaps her neck. Amuro recovers the body but she is already dead and brought back to Ra Calium. She died because Gyunei snapped her neck and crushed her body.
You're still confusing evil deeds with mental problems. Mental problems can lead people to do bad things, but not everyone who does bad things is insane.
>defending war crimes and tortue
You are splitting hairs and using wordplay because you don't want to admit you are wrong. You have yet to provide any evidence that Gyunei is stable and mentally sound individual. But all evidence shown so far (Zeta Gundam, ZZ Gundam, Etc) show that cyber newtypes are mentally unstable and have severe personality defects.
>You are splitting hairs and using wordplay because you don't want to admit you are wrong.
Complaining about splitting hairs is stupid. If splitting hairs and using certain words is a problem, doesn't that mean the point you are making is too broad and vague when it doesn't work for other words?
>You have yet to provide any evidence that Gyunei is stable and mentally sound individual.
And I keep telling you that everything you have mentioned so far are not examples of unstable behavior. He does not have trouble following orders or reasoning logically to reach a conclusion. He does not have behavioral problems that make him unfit for anything other than an attack dog like failure to connect patterns, being unable to control impulses, or doing things for no reason. I provided you examples of other cyber newtypes like Rosamia actually having cognitive problems and flipping personalities on a dime, and Gyunei doesn't do any of that. Gyunei even leads a team, other cyber newtypes are just mindless broken weapons that are let loose on enemies.
He wants to court a girl he knows for 10 minutes? Why is there silence when I point out Quess wants to join Char after knowing him for 10 minutes, the majority of which was a car and horse chase? His idea of beating and replacing Char? That is ambition and ego. What exactly is the insane part, that he's planning to betray his boss? If he is not stable or mentally sound, why is he able to formulate a plan to exploit Amuro's weakness that almost succeeds? He knows what he is doing and he understands why it is working. There's nothing insane about that. If killing a hostage is insanity incarnate, will you tell me that Jerid is an insane newtype because he led an operation where his troops tried to gas a colony even though he himself acknowledges it as evil?
So your argument is that Gyunei is....a sociopath? That's not any better lmao
Anyone who is willing to commit war crimes for a girl he is just met is insane. You know this is true Anon. Why are you arguing against this?
Fool, you've fricked yourself into a corner now. You have to prove Keyra signaled a surrender first, no backsies.
>Fool, you've fricked yourself into a corner now.
Pilots who bail or eject out of their planes are protected by Geneva conventions. It is a war crime to attack them.
Does not apply to mobile suits.
Says who?
Says the official document which uses the term aircraft. Last time I checked, mobile suits are a revolutionary new fighting platform generally designed for space combat that cannot be simply likened to any previous vehicle like a tank or plane or boat. Depending on the vehicle, there may or may not be conventions on it. My understanding is that aircraft crew who bail out are at the mercy of their parachute or ejection system, they are typically strapped in and cannot defend themselves until they reach the ground and therefore it is in bad taste to attack them. () Tank and armored vehicle crews leaving their damaged vehicle are not subject to such protections for example, as they often carry small arms and as soon as they exit the vehicle they are considered combatants, even if less well armed and protected than a regular infantryman. Airborne infantry parachuting down also do not have protections and are considered valid targets.
Based on that, if we had to make amendments for mobile suits, I would imagine that if a mobile suit pilot ejects from his suit in a pod, then following the spirit of the geneva convention it would be considered illegal to attack the pod+pilot as the pilot has no way of defending himself. A mobile suit pilot that opens the hatch to exit by themselves may still be a combatant, as we've seen some pilots carry a sidearm or their wienerpit may have personal defensive weapons they can retrieve before leaving the wienerpit, similar to a vehicle crew.
Therefore for a pilot who wants to surrender, but if they do not have a dedicated ejection pod or cannot activate it, it would be very prudent to make their intentions clear and immediately declare surrender to clear away any doubts or itchy trigger fingers.
Air crews/pilots abandoning their planes, paratroopers, and shipwrecked sailors are covered by treaties. Attacking them is illegal even during war. It is considered a war crime ever since WW2. The only people not covered by treaty are tank crews and crews of armored vehicles that are abandoning their vehicles. But in practice, they are also generally offered a chance to surrender or allowed to flee. It is standard practice by almost all militaries of the world. You don't gun down people jumping out of their burning vehicle.
Mobile suits are similar to fighter jets so it would be a good bet that there are similar treaties about mobile suit pilots. In addition, you are supposed to take prisoners because of Gundam's Antarctic Treaty. I'm pretty sure using your mobile suit hand to grab a pilot, squeeze them, use them as a hostage, and shake them violently, and snap their neck is a war crime no matter how you slice it. No military tribunal would ever declare them innocent if a pilot did that to another person. There's no excuse there. Gyunei did commit war crimes here.
>Air crews/pilots abandoning their planes, paratroopers, and shipwrecked sailors are covered by treaties.
Paratroopers are specifically exempt from protection in the Geneva conventions and it is neither a crime nor morally wrong to attack them while they descend because they are not in distress, they are dropping to attack.
>But in practice, they are also generally offered a chance to surrender or allowed to flee. It is standard practice by almost all militaries of the world. You don't gun down people jumping out of their burning vehicle.
>Gyunei did commit war crimes here
Morally yes, legally no(t as far as we know).
>But in practice, they are also generally offered a chance to surrender or allowed to flee. It is standard practice by almost all militaries of the world. You don't gun down people jumping out of their burning vehicle.
Lol no what are you talking about, all militaries from WW2 to Iraq hosed down tanks with MG fire to kill the crew.
Point of order but the Nemo III was inservice by that point and is arguably better than the Jegan in literally every way except max reactor output...which the Jegan doesn't make use of anyway since it's slower and less heavily armed.
It's probably about on par with a Qubeley. Gyunei did blow up all those nukes with it, and the Jagd was an effective ace unit even in Unicorn
Qubeleys have more than twice as many funnels and integrated weapons on each arm.
The Jagd's funnels have ~8 times the power output of the Qubeley's funnels, and I'd imagine a proper beam gun would be more powerful than the holstered beam sabres in the forearm.
it's just a zeta without a waverider and a bit taller
ok it's not neo-zeon levels of powercreep ala Wolves/Zak3, it's still the suit that's given to high ranking members of the New Born due to it's unparalleled performance/features among mass-produced suits in faction; ergo "top"
Amuro defeated an Asshimar with a fricking cargo plane.
To be fair, Buran was distracted, but it was clear that Amuro, even while rusty and still recovering from retirement, had Kamille in awe when he sortied.
but kayra sue kwabbed.
*blocks your path*
Nah. As much as I'd love to shit all over Athrun and his machines, Saviour went down due to pilot incompetence alone; its was never given a time to shine.
Kira abandons his shield and only takes off Savior's arm in it's first past, Athrun had ample chance to just fire the cannons right there and Kira would have died. He just doesn't because he doesn't want to kill Kira so he pretty much has no choice but to just stand there and get sliced up.
Athrun should've stayed in his og Zaku Warrior. Savior's such a forgettable suit and a stain on the Aegis-inspired line
>Muh powerlevel
God I hate what wing homosexuals and seed cucks have done to this.
Frick off try hard posser, we are literally comparing machine specs, do you even like machines homosexual? This is no Dragon ball power levels, this actually comparing design specs
>posser
School's back in session, maybe learn something like how to spell this year, eh?
I'd say this thing, unless you count B-Gundam.
That's just a GM
Y'know the fact that they're stuck with scrapping together this with their own RnD and constantly get wienerblocked on any new developments is why the Federation wet navy keeps funding Zeonic holdouts on earth, just saying. Honestly I'd be pretty fricking mad too if I was left to do a vital job with literally GM 1.5s with snorkels and a bunch of Zeonic aquatic suits the federation didn't have to pay to develop while having to kitbash my own gundam knockoff.
One of the weakest, but not the absolute weakest
Amuro was THIS close to killing Gyunei in the Sazabi with the Re-Gz and only failed because Char interferred, and Char only did as well as he did because Gyunei backed up him.
But you can chalk that up to the fact that Amuro is an absurdly good pilot, not the machine.
A good pilot is still going to pick a good vehicle to pilot. That's part of being a good pilot.
What if the Federation was being a frick and not giving him the best thing they had in their inventory so Amuro had to bypass the Feds and personally deal with Anaheim himself?
>Oh, we're facing an extinction-level threat? Here's a middling reject from the Zeta scrap pile, it doesn't even transform.
You are spewing fanfiction, only thing that matters is what is in the movie.
Don't even bring up the oft-mentioned but unproven bullshit claim that Amuro requested a Zeta and was denied, but there's got to be a better mobile suit in the Federation's arsenal than just the Re-GZ. Captured NZ machines from the end of Haman's group like a Doven Wolf, or leftover prototype Titans machines like a Gabthley would have been better than the Re-GZ.
>Captured NZ machines from the end of Haman's group like a Doven Wolf, or leftover prototype Titans machines like a Gabthley would have been better than the Re-GZ.
Fricking please, the Feds wanted to get the Alex to Amuro, they wanted to give him the best machine, if there was some bullshit fanfiction story of captured Neo Zeon MS that Amuro could have used, he would have done it, the Feds would have made it easy as frick for him to get it, just how Amuro got every fricking spec the way he wanted on the Nu Gundam. The Re-GZ was the best suit the feds had for him till the Nu.
achtually
in the novel Amuro wanted his Zeta (3) transported out of atmosphere, but the Feddies kept flaking on him insisting on the regz
a lot of the funding for the Nu was straight out of his pocket when he realised it'd be more fruitful just having a new suit made for him by the moon-coons
>Fricking please, the Feds wanted to get the Alex to Amuro, they wanted to give him the best machine
That isn't even in the same fricking story, how the frick is that supposed to represent the Federation leadership 14 years later as being the same? White Base got treated as well as it did throughout MSG due to the efforts of General Revil and Lt. Matilda who brought them not just supplies through fricking enemy territory but also reinforcement machines. There sure ain't anyone specifically looking out for Bright's ship and crew like that in the time of CCA, but Londo Bell does get priority for the introduction of new Jegans to replace the old GM line.
>if there was some bullshit fanfiction story of captured Neo Zeon MS that Amuro could have used, he would have done it, the Feds would have made it easy as frick for him to get it, just how Amuro got every fricking spec the way he wanted on the Nu Gundam.
And they fricking should have done it, but they didn't.
>The Re-GZ was the best suit the feds had for him till the Nu.
What an absolute crock of shit, the Re-GZ isn't even the best suit to come out of the many attempts to produce a cost-effective Zeta, and it wasn't even the most common one. Even without taking other sidestories or post-CCA media into account, there should still exist other machines that are better than the Re-GZ and conceivably would have existed in Federation possession at the time.
>in the novel Amuro wanted his Zeta (3) transported out of atmosphere
Yeah, I'm gonna have to ask for a source. I don't even know which novel you're talking about.
>other suits better than REGZ
I’m curious what would you say is a better replacement? There’s no ZZ despite there being a MP. Would he get a Hyaku Shiki? Shiki Kai? Zeta plus C1? Got back to the Rick Dijeh? You suppose he get a Doven Wolf, Qubeley MP? or Hamma Hamma? Or does he get a boosted GM III or Jegan?
Not that anon but early Londo Bell was at the mercy of Federation accountants and officials after the disaster of the Titans. They were underfunded and undermanned for their job. I'm sure there was some Federation official vetoing the idea of sending Londo Bell anything too powerful. That's why they only had Jegans and the Re-Gz. Absolutely no Gundams or high end prototypes were allowed. If Amuro or Bright requested something higher end, I'm sure someone in the chain of command said no.
Also Early Londo Bell only had four ships. Just FOUR to patrol the entire Earthsphere. The Titand had dozens if not a few hundred. But Londo Bell only gets four ships and some mass produced units. Nothing more.
Feddieman here, you underestimate how bad the leadership got. Without Revil to give trust to newtypes, John Kowen to push more Gundam development, Blex/ Quattro to show that spacenoids can be trusted with AEUG, no Tem Ray to build a strong Gundam or MPs, Jamitov meandering, shit was garbage. You can see it that by ZZ, nobody gives a frick.
The feds weren’t progressing in development, Amuro had to mock up Nu Gundam by himself, shit wasn’t gonna get done until a real threat was presented. Char’s rebellion is proof that they didn’t take anything seriously
>wanted to give Amuro the Alex
That was the goal. However, they fricked up when they stored it in some colony and not by shipping it to Luna II then to Solomon before Operation Star One.
The issue here is purely logistical.
They stored it in a colony because the Alex was still undergoing tests and considered not ready.
See
. If we include material after CCA, then it gets kinda silly. There's like 4 different Nu Gundam prototypes that Amuro could have been using while waiting for the final version of the Nu to finish construction.
https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/YRA-90A_%CE%BC_Gundam
This one is a prototype ground use MS, further development and changes will lead to the Nu Gundam design. No psycoframe.
https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/RX-93_%CE%BD_Gundam_(First_Lot)
This is essentially the Nu Gundam's complete body but missing funnels and any kind of psycommu device.
https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/RX-9_Narrative_Gundam
Don't even need to explain this thing.
>Captured NZ machines
Would be a good story for the Lindwurm.
That WAS the best the Federation had at the time. Anaheim only could make the Nu Gundam for him because Zeon engineers leaked the psychoframe to them.
Where did all that Psycommu/Cyber Newtype research go anyways? It's not like the tech and research just disappeared after the Titans were dissolved. The Federation had more than a few R&D centers like Augusta and Oakland developing the tech and machines, and you're telling me a monkey modeled Zeta was the best they could give to the best pilot they had?
The Federation was never particularly good at Psycommu Newtype stuff. Pretty much all Psychoframe/Funnel/Remote weapon/NT-D stuff are developed by either Neon, or Anaheim privately.
Say what? The Titans were ahead of AE on nearly all fronts during Zeta with regards to Newtype tech, they couldn't even figure out movable frame technology until they stole it from the Titans, and they didn't develop any funnel-capable MS during Zeta and ZZ the same way the Titans did. All they had was a semi-Psycommu system with the Biosensor, and all that was supposed to do was give Newtypes a means to more easily interface with their machine, rather than be a full control suite like something in the Psyco Gundam.
All of that basically died with the Titans
There were multiple Federation facilities involved in it, they just handed their shit over to the Titans when ordered. The point is that the Federation already had an understanding and apparatus for research and development for newtype weapons like cyber newtypes and psycommu systems, so what the hell happened between Zeta and CCA where they magically forgot they had the tech and couldn't develop it further?
Cyber newtype research was banished and swept under the rug along with all the Titans stuff, the newtype institutes like Augusta and Oakland were allied with the Titans and also produced weapons for them.
Newtype research restarts under the slightly vaguely reformed post-Zeta Federation but mainly in the form of those EXAM knockoffs like NITRO, oldtype interface systems meant to simulate newtype abilities like Silver Bullet quasi-psycommu and F91 bio-computer, and the Unicorn project. It's a little telling that all of these projects are either anti-newtype or meant for oldtypes and don't necessarily require newtypes at the controls (but of course having a newtype use them generally makes it better)
Let's be real, Cyber NT are a technological dead end. It just creates a bunch of psychos you can barely control in exchange for being able to use a couple classes of weapons only newtypes can use
Seemed like they basically had it right by Gyunei. He was overambitious and not as good as Char or Amuro, but if they made a dozen or so of him, they would be able to wreck a Federation fleet on their own.
They had it right as early as Gates. He was a weaker newtype than Rosamia and Four, but he was stable and didn't randomly flip out the way they both did. The solution was simply making them a strong enough newtype to utilize the systems on their machines like the psycommu controls and things like funnels, but not pushing them to the point of breaking their minds.
The point is that newtype research was already being carried out by multiple institutions within the Federation, and AFAIK there was nothing noted in Zeta or ZZ that they were shut down, but all of a sudden, their research and development just goes poof, and they act like newtype tech is completely incomprehensible to them, the ReGZ doesn't even have a biosensor, it's just that bootleg.
If they just settled with making superhumans that can physically ignore the high stresses of mobile suit combat with enhanced reflexes without trying to tamper with their brain to make them fricked up newtypes, they'd be golden and there would be next to no issue. I'd rather have a company of compliant superhumans with no extrasensory powers than a mere handful of unstable nutbags with extrasensory powers that randomly bluescreen.
Part of it is probably that the Federation doesn't particularly want to empower Newtypes with powerful machines. They don't trust them, and don't really want to have to rely on the psychic power of certain spacenoids. So if they don't want to make crazy cyber newtypes they can't control they basically have no interest in Newtype research.
They'd probably rather hope Amuro and Char kill each other and be rid of both of them then try to make Amuro a super newtype suit
How about a proper Zeta Plus unit that could transform? Or the Z II? or a Gundam Mark V? The Zeta Gundam that was abandoned inside Axis. Maybe some Titans models that never showed up again, like Jerid's Gabthley.
This isn't even going into newer content that ends up telling us that AE had a cache of captured Doven Wolves given to them by the Feds that were being experimented on and eventually modified into Silver Bullets, or the RX-9 test platform for the tech that would go into the final Nu Gundam.
Amuro being a legendary Newtype, ex-Karaba and part of Londo Bell probably doomed him to be never given anything more than decent by the Fedeation
The Zeta is a very underrated unit in terms of capability. If Amuro had been piloting it instead of the ReGZ I legitimately think he would have killed Gyunei. That being said, the ReGZ is a gimped Zeta, it's unreliable and inconsistent enough that we see Londo Bell pilots sortie in Jegans and ReZELs over it, but it's still half a Zeta and if you absolutely have to use it it's a solid suit and very capable
But I do think it's one of the weaker Gundam types relative to its time, down there with the Mark 2 and the Ground Type
>That being said, the ReGZ is a gimped Zeta, it's unreliable and inconsistent enough that we see Londo Bell pilots sortie in Jegans and ReZELs over it
I don't think it was ever stated that it was unreliable. Londo Bell pilots probably couldn't even choose a Re-GZ if they wanted one since we never saw more than one unit at a time, they never built more since it was a rejected design. The one that shows up on the Ra Cailum in Unicorn is just a weird cameo appearance of sorts since it doesn't have any pilots assigned to it and it's primarily a space-use model when the Ra Cailum spent the entirety of its appearances in Unicorn on Earth.
It's unreliable and inconsistent by design, a big strength of the Zeta was to freely switch between MS and waverider mode as often as it wanted, but the ReGZ can only do it once which is not only really cost ineffective but makes it less flexible than the Zetas before it or even the ReZEL after it. In terms of a role on the battlefield it might as well be a souped up Jegan, which isn't bad, I think the ReGZ could be mass produced as a Jegan Kai or something, but it's a gimped Zeta and can't consistently do strafing and scouting runs like the Zeta could
>If Amuro had been piloting it instead of the ReGZ I legitimately think he would have killed Gyunei.
He had a perfect shot lined up that Gyunei didn't see coming, Char just stopped it. The problem wasn't Amuro's machine, his aim was flawless and had already fired, someone else just got in the way.
Oh thanks, I was about to make a webm myself to back up my point but i guess someone already did.
As many issues I've had with CCA, the way Gyunei was killed off like an insignificant mook was fitting, couldn't stand that smug shit the second he appeared.
CCA to me was lots of really good ideas that didn't have enough time to cook in the oven. I don't even think Quess is a bad idea, it's just an idea they fricked up in execution.
Beautiful movie though, it justifies its existence through the animation alone.
I think it's just Gyunei in a nutshell. He thought he was a main character. Just look at how he feels he simply "deserves" Quess just because he exists. It's all ego on that guy and him dying like a b***h is just perfect
Keep in mind this moment was like...4 minutes into the movie. How many wouldn't have died if Char didn't stop that shot?
Amuro actually made his own ReGZ which is shown in Moon Gundam, but Anaheim didn't like it because it was still too expensive, but they made one unit of it.
He gave it to a woman he was simping and at her suggestion renamed it to ReGZID (ID=Ideal) because it's obviously the one he wanted mass produced but they never made more than one.
And Amuro in BC doesn't like the base ReGZ too, he's like "Seriously?" when Bright says if he's good with using it.
I swear....the finances and economics in UC gundam make no sense. Why would the Zeta Gundam or transformation systems be expensive?
Anaheim Electronics is a multi-trillion operation that has their own private colonies, factories, and cities on the Moon. They have so much influence that they can manipulate governments to do what they want. Plus economies of scale make things much cheaper since you are mass producing it.
The Titans themselves had most of their fleet using Transformation type mobile suits in the mid UC 0080s. We already see transformation systems on mass produced suits like the Zeta Plus series, Ashimars, Rezel, etc.
If I here "too expensive" one more time I'm going to bang my head against the wall. That excuse only worked during the One Year War when the Federation was on the brink of destruction and needed to pump out GMs as quickly and simply as possible. This excuse doesn't fly in any other conflict.
There can be a lot more moving parts and joints that all need to work well for it to not gum up the works. The extra costs come in the form of not just needing more parts than a non-transforming suit, but also more man-hours spent on manufacturing and then assembly. Then you need to have technicians spend more labor hours on maintenance or hire more technicians to try to finish more maintenance in the same amount of time. Look at how many moving parts or joints a basic Zaku or GM might have, and then compare that to the Zeta's number of moving and shifting body parts and panels as per attached pic.
>Plus economies of scale make things much cheaper since you are mass producing it.
That only works best when it's a mass market product that can be quickly built and more units are always needed. If no one wants or needs to continuously buy them, what's the point of setting up massive production lines? Maybe if the OYW never ended then sure, but all of the smaller conflicts afterward are a lot tinier. OYW production numbers are like maybe 4000 Zakus, 500 GMs, and ~165 Gelgoogs. Total production numbers for the Zeta Plus, Asshimar, etc like are like what, 20 to 30 units each? The Titans' other stuff like the Gabthley and Hambrabi are essentially prototype custom MS, no more than maybe 3 to 5 units of each.
>The Titans themselves had most of their fleet using Transformation type mobile suits in the mid UC 0080s.
No. Their mainline suit is the Hizack, then the Marasai, and maybe the Barzam. The Titans started in 0084 or 0085, but their first transforming suit isn't until midway into the show which is 0087. They did not have many transforming units in grunt hands, and even then a lot of them were also simple-ass designs like making the suit lie prone and then folding its limbs back. Comparatively, stuff like the Zeta where the chest unfolds open, the head lowers down, and then the backpack swaps to the other side of the chest is kind of a nightmare.
>but their first transforming suit isn't until midway into the show which is 0087
asshimars were developed in UC0084 and the Gaplant was developed in UC0085
My mistake, for some reason I thought the Messala was first.
>OYW production numbers are like maybe 4000 Zakus, 500 GMs, and ~165 Gelgoogs.
I have a vague memory of an old Gundam OYW book that said production numbers are in the tens of thousands for both sides. Zeon made like 8000+ for all Zaku 1, Zaku, 2 and all Zaku variants. 5000+ Doms and Rick Doms, and around 800 Gelgoog. While the Federation deployed 6000 GMs and 4000 Balls to attack Solomon and AL Baou Que.
Entertainment Bible 39 has those crazy numbers. They're so far out of wack that I don't really take them seriously. I mean, it's 4 GMs to a Salamis and 3 ZakusDoms to a Musai, I really don't think they have thousands of cruisers and transports taking part in those battles.
The Titans are essentially special forces, not military police.
>Similar in size (or maybe slightly smaller) than the normal Federation military.
I don't think this is the case. If they were just as large then they could handle entire operations themselves without involving the EFF. Instead, in the show they're occasionally assisted by regular EFF forces or and later on they bully the Republic of Zeon into providing supplies.
>Probably hundreds if not thousands of suits that have to be made to supply the Titans.
Fleet sizes for the Titans put them at 100 ships and 300 MS total at the height of their power late in the show.
https://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14018
>The Asshimar was mass produced on large scale.
Again, no it isn't. Why are you ignoring this?
https://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=11881
NRX-044 Asshimar: about 20 produced (B-CLUB issue 72).
>The Regz is far less complicated than those suits.
I think they didn't like the disposable single-use backpack that allowed only a one-time transformation from fighter to MS mode. They did end up approving the ReZEL which does have a reusable transformation and carries heavier weapons loads to complement the more basic Jegans, and quite a lot were built since the Nahel Argama carried a bunch that got shot down and then received replacement ReZELs, and the General Revil flagship carried quite a lot of them as well.
>Fleet sizes for the Titans put them at 100 ships and 300 MS total at the height of their power late in the show.
Zeta gave me the impression the Titans had more. 100 ships and 300 MS isn't enough to have forces stationed at every single Federation base in Earth (including Kiliminjaro, Dakar, and Jaburo), every Side, every major Colony, The cities on Moon, Gate of Zedan, Konpei Island, and several other Asteroid bases. These are vast distances. And many of these bases are huge. I don't believe the Titans would leave Konpei Island and Gate of Zedan 90% empty with only a few ships guarding it.
This is just speculation, but I always figured that the Titans were modeled in a similar way to the Empire in Star Wars. And the AEUG was the rebels. The Titans had a lot of forces and ships, but most of them were tied down doing guard duty at various bases. They couldnt leave. The Titans can't assign every single ship they have to chase the AEUG. These ships and forces must police the colonies and be stationed at bases to maintain Titan authority. So the Titans have only one major space fleet that's mobile and can travel all over, and that's the one we see during the TV show.
Meanwhile the AEUG has no major bases to guard. So they can concentrate their forces and run around freely. They can attack and run away. Hit and Run tactics which mess with the Titans.
>NRX-044 Asshimar: about 20 produced (B-CLUB issue 72).
Because those numbers don't line up with the shows. We saw several Titans using them in Zeta, and later Neo Zeon used them as well after capturing Titan's bases. Then Anaheim Electronics captured some upgraded them tok, and also mass produced the Anksha in Unicorn. A mere 20 Asshimar isn't enough to cover all that. The only way 20 units makes sense is if that was only the initial batch of Asshimar for testing, and then it went into full mass production.
>100 ships and 300 MS isn't enough to have forces stationed at every single Federation base
They don't need to be stationed at every single Federation base. The Federation can station Federation troops at every Federation base.
>I don't believe the Titans would leave Konpei Island and Gate of Zedan 90% empty with only a few ships guarding it.
Technically Gryps conflict is a small civil war
The Titans are allied with the Federation for the vast majority of the show, though. Boring work duties like base guard, rear line reserves, supply escorts can be left to the regular forces. People who willingly joined the Titans thought they were getting into a cushy position and fighting against Federation dissidents, not the boring duties. E.g., read the description for the GM Quel Konpeito base version:
https://www.mahq.net/rgm-79q-confeito/
>This is just speculation, but I always figured that the Titans were modeled in a similar way to the Empire in Star Wars. And the AEUG was the rebels. The Titans had a lot of forces and ships, but most of them were tied down doing guard duty at various bases.
You're not wrong. Similarly the AEUG were also small underdog resistance fighters not totally dissimilar to the Rebel alliance. In that vein, we do see in the show that sometimes the Titans despite being the larger force, still lose to the AEUG sometimes due to incompetence.
>Because those numbers don't line up with the shows. We saw several Titans using them in Zeta, and later Neo Zeon used them as well after capturing Titan's bases.
>A mere 20 Asshimar isn't enough to cover all that.
I mean if you have a count then feel free to share, but I don't think it adds up to more than 20. MAHQ and Gundam Wiki list the pilots who have used the Asshimar and it totals five, six people across animation and manga. Maybe two or three more Asshimars show up in the background of a group shot in ZZ, but it was never common enough to show up in every battle of Zeta or something.
Different anon here. If you look at Gundam manga it shows a bunch of Asshimar suits. It definitely gives the impression it was semi-mass produced for Earth defense. Plus Neo Zeon was able to use them in space somehow.
Which manga? I'm open to the idea of them mass producing the Asshimar since it's supposed to be a less complex design despite not using a movable frame, and the Anksha is clearly meant to be a reworked Asshimar that does get mass produced as an atmospheric counterpart to the space-only ReZEL. I just haven't seen that many examples of Asshimars, that's all.
>Plus, Asshimar, etc like are like what, 20 to 30 units each? The Titans' other stuff like the Gabthley and Hambrabi are essentially prototype custom MS, no more than maybe 3 to 5 units of each.
It was my understanding that the Titans are basically a heavily armed and militarized police force. Similar in size (or maybe slightly smaller) than the normal Federation military. The Titans have forces stationed in every Federation base and every Colony. And that Anaheim Electronics has to supply all the Titan forces with suits like the Hizack and Marasai. Thats still a lot of units. Probably hundreds if not thousands of suits that have to be made to supply the Titans.
>The Titans started in 0084 or 0085, but their first transforming suit isn't until midway into the show which is 0087.
If we aren't counting manga, then sure.
>They did not have many transforming units in grunt hands
The Asshimar was mass produced on large scale. So it doesn't make sense for Anaheim to complain about Regz being too complicated and expensive when we have far more complicated suits like Asshimar and Anksha running around in the universe. The Regz is far less complicated than those suits.
>feds
>expenses
I can see it. Still don’t think they were in the red financially. I always see the federation as abundant with a huge budget like the US in IRL. They just take the frugal route and spend their budget on silly things like fly mantas, shitty Salamis, Type 66 tanks, the dish.
Expanding the GM line was the smartest thing they did. But, I’ll give credit when it’s due. The Feds could have taken more risks to improve their lineup like Zeon. The strategy of overpowering via numbers like the Russians, would have worked better if they used better machines. Can you imagine if they mass produced a workable version of Blue Destiny?
Fast forward, even if the Alex was trashed. Still didn’t mean it couldn’t be repaired. G-3 was experimental, but it would have been more beneficial in the long run to field.
Ultimately, it would have helped a frickton if the federation actually trained their pilots more effectively rather than shove them in a ball and boot them out
>The Feds could have taken more risks to improve their lineup like Zeon. The strategy of overpowering via numbers like the Russians, would have worked better if they used better machines.
Give Bandai some more time and they'll work out some more variants. There are almost as many GM variants as there are Zaku variants, and the basic GM is at least better than the Zaku in most respects, on par with the Rick Dom, and somewhat under a Gelgoog. It's the "good enough for most cases" grunt but always depicted as taking a beating in animation because while Zeon has lower end MS that can be shown exploding on screen and no one bats an eye, whenever we see GMs explode it must be because all GMs suck.
>Can you imagine if they mass produced a workable version of Blue Destiny?
It wasn't for lack of trying. There's the whole Pale Rider lineup, and then over the years they've invested a bit into the NITRO program with the Delta Kai and Proto-ZZ.
>Ultimately, it would have helped a frickton if the federation actually trained their pilots more effectively rather than shove them in a ball and boot them out
I don't get the feeling that the Fed pilots were that bad. Usually we only ever hear about how Zeon suffered in the end because despite rolling out Gelgoogs to as many aces as they could, they still ended up in the hands of mostly new recruits. Similarly Axis and Neo Zeon developed high spec MS that definitely beat out the upgraded GMs that the Feds were fielding, but apparently many were still in the hands of inexperienced pilots, so when they came up against decent enemies with decent MS (AEUG, Londo Bell) they tended to lose miserably while the actual vets in Neo Zeon would at least survive.
>I don't get the feeling that the Fed pilots were that bad
Feddie pilots had no experience at Solomon and some, not all, had one major battle under their belts at ABQ. Many others had no real experience at ABQ since only part of the EFSF navy took part in Solomon. Not to mention many were earthnoids who were launching directly from Jaburo where their main ship manufacturing center was. The thing about zeeks only having fresh recruits left is just cope
Fed MS pilots are supposedly recruited from their airforce and tank units so they could be expected to have some level of competency even if trained in an unrelated field, and had the advantage of Amuro's learning computer data.
Zeeks only having fresh recruits left is canon cope, mind you.
>tank units so they could be expected to have some level of competency even if trained in an unrelated field
Nah. Piloting a mobile suit is different than a tank. MS Igloo even states there were washouts from the MS training program. They couldn't adapt to piloting a mobile suits. And as the war dragged on, new Federation pilots became younger and younger. Some coming straight out of the academy with zero experience. Or just drafted from civilian life.
>Nah. Piloting a mobile suit is different than a tank. MS Igloo even states there were washouts from the MS training program.
Except for the Federation's tank MS. I'd argue that tank drivers might be somewhat adaptable to ground combat MS while air force would more easily adapt to space combat MS. That said, any program will have some failures, I wouldn't expect a 100% success rate even given how dire the situation gets in the war. Anyway, the point was that if they were suitable to pass basic military aptitude tests and be sent to pilot and tank crew schooling, there's no reason why they couldn't be reassigned to MS pilot instead as the war went on and Zeon mostly but not entirely retreated from the Earth, as opposed to having to screen and test civilian recruits from the very beginning to see what sort of aptitude they have.
>And as the war dragged on, new Federation pilots became younger and younger. Some coming straight out of the academy with zero experience.
Thunderbolt also introduces the idea of the Feds having to draw on student recruits too.
>Or just drafted from civilian life
Given the size of the OYW, a draft is pretty much inevitable.
We've seen plane and tank controls and they're not translatable to MS piloting
I said competency, not MS piloting skill. It just means that it's quicker to move existing military personnel to a different field because they're already in your system and you already have a file on their aptitudes, rather than only recruiting completely new people that need to be tested (ASVAB, fitness testing, etc), then basic training, and then onto specialized schools.
Always loved that casual teamkill by Char. Not even a cutaway to him going "Ah for frick sakes," the poor shit is disposed of and forgotten like garbage.
>GMs suck
I agree. It’s just a bunch of zeonwank and overplayed.
>I don’t get the feeling fed pilots were that bad.
Feddie pilots had no experience at Solomon and some, not all, had one major battle under their belts at ABQ. Many others had no real experience at ABQ since only part of the EFSF navy took part in Solomon. Not to mention many were earthnoids who were launching directly from Jaburo where their main ship manufacturing center was. The thing about zeeks only having fresh recruits left is just cope
This anon is right, but I was hinting at Zeon having top aces like: Char, Shin Mastsunaga, Johnny Ridden, Gabby Hazard, Gato, Doan (in the new movie), Chalia Bull, Garma, Dozle, Ramba Ral, Tri stars, shit goes on and on for just the OYW.
Meanwhile, the Federation only recognized the WB crew as aces until we come across Shiro, Yuu Kajima, Rayer, Tenneth A Jung, Lydo Wolff, Bork Cry, Matt Healy, Yazan, you could argue Burning is one too. But a lot of these guys don’t get a spotlight until later. Most are just a bunch of kids that get owned
>zeeks having fresh recruits
Makes sense given that most of their top aces waste their time on WB and die in the process. The others get caught up in their own missions like Nimbus, Visch.
Doesn’t mean shit when they lose A Baoa Qu. It’s a lack of leadership too
Char in Sazabi would have crushed him there if he wasn't half assing it because he wanted Nu Gundam to be ready first so they could have a fair fight. He was not using Sazabi's full power there at all, Gyunei even calls him out for not using more than one funnel against him.
Not fighting at full power out of pride can be called something else: being a moron
>Char beating Amuro
Char can’t beat named pilots and we can all confirm this. Amuro would have found a way to win even if he was given a GM
>was this close to killing Gyunei
He should have that would have made CCA better
Sure it's name stands for "Refined Gundam Zeta", but is the Re-GZ actually treated as a Gundam-type in-universe? AFAIK Londo Bell just treated it like it's just another machine, though with good specs at least, and Gyunei called it a Gundam wannabe
I mean it's not like being a Gundam ultimately means anything in UC, it's just a name.
It's not a Gundam, it is similiar to the ZII, both are connected to the Zeta Gundam, but neither are gundams.
Would have been cool if they just had Amuro piloting the actual Zeta at the start of CCA, then it would have been used by all three protags up til that point.
On paper its stats are actually quite high for an MS meant for more mass production even in just MS mode. Its thruster power alone actually exceeds a lot of more “legit” Gundams. On top of everything it has a simplified Biosensor in Beltorchika’s Children which arguably helps save the passenger(s).
For all intents and purposes it’s actually a superb all round high speed MS, it’s just burdened with one of the dumbest “cost effective” gimmicks in the UC with the BWS, and later burdened with an incompetent pilot for some reason (but I guess Londo Bell had few options. Man Emma, if only you’d stayed in the damn wienerpit).
It was really just an MS that couldn’t catch a lucky break after Amuro moved to Nu Gundam, but it’s not on the MS’s performance itself. Hell I’d bet an issue is that it’s so high performance that finding qualified pilots to bring out its potential is probably hard, hence why they had to settle for Mrs Deathflag McDoomed.
Why the Federation would abandon even its solid MS form though is beyond me but they’re cheapskates afterall.
Even in BC, Beltorchika took out the psycho doga with it which is an impressive feat. It really didn’t need the BWS because it was already an excellent commanders unit for jegan squads but it’s poor reputation allowed Londo bell to get a true MP transforming mobile suit being the REZEL
wasn't that mostly fetus magic though?
>Why the Federation would abandon even its solid MS form though is beyond me but they’re cheapskates afterall.
It's apparently a really expensive suit and that's the whole reason it wasn't mass-produced
It's not a gundam.
I am excited to play this game series for the first time.
You mean gundam or just ms? If former pic related. It breaks if you look at it for too long
Rick Dias is technically the Gamma Gundam according to AE, so no
How is it "technically" if it got stripped of that title? Or do you mean "was" instead of "is"?
>Well Londo Bell was pretty understaffed. They only had what? 3 ships?
Also they put out a request for support from the other EFSF fleets but IIRC they said most of them were busy or ignored it. One of the other side garrisons had a laser cannon (I guess for blowing up orbital debris?) but it got taken out by a suicidal Neo Zeon attack before it could do very much to 5th Luna.
I mean technically the rx-78-2 since it's the least technologically advanced model or the GM if they count
Relative to its enemies probably the first Victory, but moreso because Zanscare had good MS that matched it in terms of weapons (excluding upgrades)
ReGZ isnt a Gundam. A Gundam is a title given usually to a cutting edge suit in terms of technology. Or has some sort of special weapon.
ReGZ is a limited mass production suit. It's highly streamlined for budgetary and cost reasons. It's still a level above ordinary grunt suits. Probably something you would give to squad leader. But it's not a Gundam. However, I respect this suit even more because it's not a Gundam. A well trained pilot can use it to face off against enemies using advanced suits. When a pilot does well with ReGZ, I am pleased.
>ReGZ is a limited mass production suit.
Not actually put into production. They made 2 at most and then stopped.
Seems like a huge waste of money just to make only 2 Regz. You gotta retool your entire production line everytime you make a new suit. It's not worth it unless you at least make a small batch.
I think it's more likely that Anaheim made a small batch of Regz . Maybe a few dozen (max) Regz were made, and deployed some them throughout the Federation for testing purposes, and to get feedback from various EF units (including Londo Bell). But they also kept some of them in storage. Remember that the Federation is huge. We're talking thousands of EF mobile suits and probably hundreds of ships all spread out between the colonies, asteroids, and Earth. So having a few dozen Regz isn't far fetched.
Whenever one Regz gets damaged they can pull a spare in storage or can pull spare parts from one not being used. Eventually spare parts run out and the Regz gets retired from active service. Sort of like what happened with America's F-22 Raptor fighter jet. Only about 190 F-22's were ever made due to it being too expensive, but 1/3rd are kept grounded and used for spare parts. So maybe only 120 units can ever actually be launched at anytime.
>Seems like a huge waste of money just to make only 2 Regz. You gotta retool your entire production line everytime you make a new suit. It's not worth it unless you at least make a small batch.
Oh man, you have no idea how many Fed prototypes and preproduction models there are that never got a continuation because of one little phrase: rejected for high cost.
Besides, they don't actually need to build an entire production line for every different MS design. Odds are that the first units were put together in a hangar workshop rather than rolling off a continuous assembly line. The Nu Gundam and various other prototypes were constructed that way, they didn't didn't come from a mass production line.
>rejected for high cost
Hindsight 20/20, but high cost usually pays off. Also, I know it is supposed to show that the Feds are becoming more incompetent. However if they were basing this off real world militaries, cost would not be the issue. They’d still be making that prototype
UC-wise, I'd say the MK-II
Every other episode it was missing a limb or something,
I guess you could solely blame the pilot but for a MS that was supposed to be the flagship of the Titans got BTFO fairly quickly during the whole conflict and they resorted to using other MS.
No.
I'm surprised the concept of the Regz detachable backpack didn't take off. It opens so many possibilities of using different backpack designs. One for missiles. One for beams. One for extra long range artillery. Another for funnels. Another for long range travel like a sled loaded with extra fuel. Etc. The Federation was foolish for not exploring the idea more. The Regz doesn't HAVE to transform because the modular backpack is a better idea.
>The Regz doesn't HAVE to transform because the modular backpack is a better idea.
I don't know if it is a better idea, but it help them get past the transformation problem. They wanted a Zeta Gundam mobile suit without the cost or engineering problems of a transformation, hence the "Refine".
The problem was once the Re-GZ seperates from the Back Weapon System for battle:
1) You lose firepower. The main cannon, the Mega Beam Cannon, of the BWS is comparable to Zeta Gundam's Hyper Mega Launcher, but the Re-GZ cannot use it at all after separation. The Zeta Gundam could use its Hyper Mega Launcher in either Wave Rider and mobile suit modes.
2) which brings us to the point that the BWS is completely vulnerable after separation. There is no pilot in the BWS, it cannot fly on its own, so it has to get retrieved after a battle, and very likely shot at, destroyed at or stolen by enemies. That gets expensive...you can leave base jabbers out their because they are made cheaply, but the BWS is more expensive because of the weaponry and probably higher performance flight capabilities it had compared to a base jabber. Leaving that floating in the battlefield hoping it does not get damage till a Jegan retrieves it is not too practical.
The Regz is probably better than all grunt units made in the 0090s
Respect it.
>weakest Gundam unit
ENTER
I only watched S1 and it didn't seem terrible
Did they ever follow up on the zero armor thing?
Yes, by sending a box of staples to your address specifically, with a note to put them on your eyelids when you watch the show.
More like he needs the answer spoonfed to him by retinal projection so he can't miss it.
The Gundam Frames are stronger than their own armor. The upgrades of the Barbatos are specifically said to use lighter armor. Unlike UC's paper armor IBO suits can generally take tons of hits and keep going with or without additional armor because the basic MS material is already incredibly durable and everything is slathered in nanolaminate.
Their biggest defensive bonus is that the reactors in IBO are totally unbreachable and indestructible which means no matter how battered the MS gets it will never just blow up no matter hard it gets hit unlike every other universe where a serious hit will usually make the whole MS blow
>reactors in IBO are totally unbreachable and indestructible
Where was this stated and how can it even be indestructible? I don't remember this shit about ahab reactors
I believe that aspect was implied in the show where functioning ahab reactors from abandoned MS wrecks emitting ahab waves causes debris clusters around them.
The indestructible thing is only outright stated in the technical sidebooks but it's consistant in show that no MS ever explodes no matter how much it gets messed up and the reactors are still running even after hundreds of years and even if they've been in MS's wrecked during the war.
So yeah they never get damaged and never run out of power
Amuro is a good pilot, but who would he hold up if Max from Macross was placed in the Gundam universe as a Ace for the enemy team?
The only transformable suit that was mass produced on a scale high enough to make up the bulk of an army was the Gaza C, which was cheap AND transformable but also a massive piece of shit. Honestly the Feds should have tried perfecting the Gaza to be useable if they wanted a mass produced transformable suit. And not the Gaza D that thing is loaded with enough ballistic firepower that it probably triples the cost
>Feds should use the Gaza
My friend, we feds frick up many times for not fully utilizing Zeon MS even in post war / next war conflicts. It’s pure cringe.
Don’t you Zaku in 0083 me, brother or even raise me a “but they used a rebuilt Big Zam in rebellion, Keith used a Gelgoog, and Io in uses Zeong.
I’m talking like at the start of 0080, use zakus to train your new pilots, Doms, and especially Gelgoogs. If there were no physical units left, I’d seized the plans.
Going to gryps and post gryps, it’s silly to see that you don’t have more MS variety like Gazas, Marasai, R-Jaja
Even if you don’t use them, it would benefit you greatly to understand them or at least reverse engineer them to make your next suits better
But they do? The Feds even keep certain Zeon factories open to produce Act Zakus, Galbaldy types, Zaku Mariners, etc for their own use.
https://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?p=248740&sid=da0a3071231e9a9bb21859a7f6b33a1b#p248740
>...It was also necessary for the Federation Forces to maintain the captured factories that had produced Zaku-series machines, and to prevent the loss of their engineers. Also, the Federation Forces had many pilots who preferred the Principality machines, thanks to their use as pilot trainers and aggressors immediately after the war. In fact, even purebred Federation Forces aces weren't that picky about Federation versus Principality machines, saying they wanted to "try them out" for themselves. It also appears that some Federation engineers wanted to pass on this ease of production and Zaku construction knowhow to all future mobile suits, and there's no telling how great an impact their analysis of fundamental Principality mobile suit technologies such as the fluid pulse system and monocoque construction had on the development of later machines.
>Going to gryps and post gryps, it’s silly to see that you don’t have more MS variety like Gazas, Marasai, R-Jaja
The problem is that the Titans ruined it for the Feds, anything with a Zeon-style monoeye became poison and had to be swept away and gotten rid of. That's why the Feds (or was it Anaheim?) end up selling the Hobby Hizack off as a "sports MS" in clown colours.
No, blossom is the weakest gundam