Is this what a Mary Sue in modern media looks like?
 It's All Fucked Shirt $22.14 |
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It's All Fucked Shirt $22.14 |
Is this what a Mary Sue in modern media looks like?
Is this what a Mary Sue in modern media looks like?
It's All Fucked Shirt $22.14 |
|
It's All Fucked Shirt $22.14 |
No, this is.
Not really. Although she is extremely competent she is not well liked and the people around her try to put her in her place rather than celebrate her. So in a way she comes close.
This is correct. She is even more of a Mary Sue than she was in clone wars.
Perfect example on why being a Mary sue isn't inherently wrong
A Mary sue can be fun
Can be engaging
Can serve a bigger purpose in the story
A Mary sue can be the protagonist
Because Mary sue is a template
The problem is when you grab the template and not really add much to it then Mary sue is all you got and that doesn't work
People say batman is a Mary sue and probably the biggest Mary sue of them all
Superman is a Mary sue too his biggest problem is being too perfect
Starfire and raven had a similar dynamic and sure they are flawed but they are so strong in sheer power they carry the team and their flaws only make us like them more
>they carry the team
Robin beats them both with a metal stick and red goo.
A Mary Sue can never be fun. Because a Mary Sue isn't a character that's perfect. A Mary Sue is a character that has the whole world bend around them. It's not the Mary Sue that has to grow, change and develop. It's the world that has to change to suit the decisions of the Mary Sue thanks to the writer's influence.
Which Mariner fits Mariner. Not because she's perfect; but because she doesn't face consequences for her actions in a situation where other characters would. She's drunk on duty, insubordinate and endangers the lives of others. But she doesn't face consequences because the writers are supporting her. It's boring and sometimes frustrating.
She did have to clean up those giant space amoebae when she tried to steal the ship.
it’s pretty blatant that nepotism is protecting her as well when she hasn’t been drummed out of star fleet
>watched 2 episodes and fricked off
I don't know whose farts you've been huffing, but the brain damage has set in and you need to stop.
ray exists
Who's Ray?
The real issue is that nu-star wars can't make good MCs to save their lives, so they keep re-using her.
Star Wars is stuck spinning its wheels because there's no story to tell anymore. The fairy tale was complete with Jedi. Everything after was functionally straight to video Disney sequel embellishment that adds nothing.
Is this what bait looks like in the modern Cinemaphile?
I don't think Mariner is a Mary-Sue. People complain about her attitude all the time.
She was really insufferable at the beginning of the show but over time, the writers actually had her face consequences for her behavior. Tendi is probably more of a Mary Sue than Beckett but people don't complain about her as much because she has a more pleasant personality.
I wonder how she will be back next season, like when Shax died in the season finale and was back to it the first episode of the next season.
I just hope that they get another season.
They are already in production for season 5
>Paramount about to be sold for parts
>Animation Guild going on strike in June
>Solar Opposites canceled
>SAG-AFTRA production delays
If the stars align, we hopefully might not even have to see the one they already got greenlit for 🙂
Yes, any other answer is a cope.
And the people who complain about her are always wrong or morally evil.
If you think Mariner is bad never ever watch Star Trek Discovery
OP is probably the same one shitting on Mariner I saw in a Lower Decks thread earlier.
No I am the anon in your walls
Actually, never watching star trek discovery is really the way to go for everyone.
Different flavor of the same sort of thing. She doesn't play the role as straight, but it's there.
She's basically immune to anything happening to her ever, which you could maybe regard as "plot armor" but this is like an order of magnitude above that.
Close, but I'd say it got better over the series. Aside from that dumb Jennifer thing that went literally nowhere and lasted for all of a two episodes (thankfully) she became less of a jackals. She definitely was a Mary Sue in the first season, though.
Ultimately, now they pass it off by making all of the protagonists badasses. Tendi Is a literal pirate princess and could probably beat Mariner's ass. Rutherford is some crazy former drag racer and has crazy cyborg abilities.
Then there's Boimler. I don't really know what they're doing with him, but he has like one impressive feat in the entire show and it's during a simulation.
Watching them do their shtick on Strange New Worlds was eye-opening. They were charming doe-eyed nerds on SNW, which doesn't come across in the cartoon
It's those crazy Orion psychedelics.
Making people as naturally charming and likeable as Tawny Newsome and Jack Quaid into the unlikable obnoxious twats they play on Lower Decks is an incredible feat.
McMahan could make Tom Hanks look like an butthole
Its the effect of two different genres. The sociopathic comedy tendencies of Lower Decks means that everybody is a nut. A guy like Pike can be a calm and sympathetic foil to Mariner and Boimler being Mariner and Boimler. But who's available to do that on Lower Decks? Captain Freeman is a neurotic mess. Ransom is Zapp Branigan. Etc.
Boimler is easily flustered and insecure, but is incredibly competent. His entire shtick is that he doesn't have enough faith in himself.
The entire story arc of I Am Not Starfire is Mandy coming to realize she's an idiot teenager with no goals or directions in life who needs to pull her head out of her ass.
>Boimler is easily flustered and insecure, but is incredibly competent.
Yeah but is he a badass? Outside of the Borg Simulation he doesn't really do a lot of badass stuff.
it's demonstrated that he is a great leader but still has a lot to learn, like that episode where he dies for a bit and sees the koala
He's a *kinda* good leader. In like the last episode. But he doesn't do anything really badass outside of the Borg episode.
It just feels weird that all the other lower Deckers turn out to be hidden badasses with special unique skills but boimler continues to be a decent if promising average starfleet guy who just happens to be really dedicated.
There are worse examples
>Dr. Wong from Rick and Morty
>Teela from He-Man Netflix
>Jake Goldman from related pic
Bottom Tier:
>Mindy Kaling’s “””Velma”””
>Snips from Clone Wars
>CinemaphileAva from Borderlands 3
>Dobson from that powergirl comic.
>Natty from Natty Comics
>Mandy from “I Am Not Starfire”
>Can’t upload files on Incog Mode
This website is turning gay every second
Did the mods do an out of season April Fool’s joke?
>doing your job is being a mary sue
maybe apply yourself in the workplace, OP
I genuinely do wonder what the preferred alternative is supposed to be. Do these people want protagonists who are incompetent?
It means a (usually female) character one dislikes.
Darryl Dixon is the biggest Mary Sue of all time AND NEVER GETS CALLED OUT FOR IT.
He wasn't even in the source material, the he suddenly replaced Rick as the lead. Frick Darryl.
He replaced Dwight too.
You say that, but Mariner is pretty transparently a serious take on the very original Lt. Mary Sue. She's a, for lack of a better word, deconstruction of the uber talented Starfleet officer who manages to be the center of attention. The show goes to great lengths to demonstrate that she is a heavily flawed, complex, but ultimate good person. It's sad that any character is automatically labelled with a pejorative term just because they're capable at their job.
>Mike McMahan detected
It's not that she's good at her job, it's that the show kissed her ass way too much in Season 1 & 2 too much. She never held an L because they had to add some shit in the end such as her staging the Ferengi attack to boost Boimler instead of lettimg him actually be competent. Same with her doing Grey Ops/Section 31 shit at 16-18 years old, etc. Also she's the Captain's daughter and she got away with her shit from being the "nepo baby" she despises when even Wesley Crusher was called out and slapped for his shit. Sure they've tried to fix this in S3 onwards but it comes off as a facetious bandaid more than actually admitting to making a bad character.
Mariner isn't a Mary Sue
Does anyone know what this means now
no one ever knew what it meant, they just knew it was an insult
Also Mariner can mary my sue anytime, meow
I genuinely want them to give her the tooth gap and the frizzier hair in LD because she's super hot irl
Mike, I know you're reading this.
No because mariner is is a great fighter/combay specialist but not much else. Same as rutherford being an excellent engineer/technician and boimler being a leader. Also mariner isn't liked by all members of the crew and gets constantly criticized for her negative traits.
She was basically fired at one point because the entire crew including her own mother assumed she was shit talking the ship to the media when she was completely innocent. Not Mary Sue.
Which in previous eps she does shittalk the crew/ship but gets whitewashed in that ep to be an innocent woobie sue too. Worse yet everyone had to beg to get her back and appologize on how she was the best thing ever for them and kiss her ass even more which is peak Mary Sue-ism as nothing is truly her fault, it's society/some other external influence keeping her down. If she wasn't a Mary Sue, they'd let it be shown she was shittalking but just being the whiny b***h she always was. Have her earn the respect of the crew back, not the other way around.
The ending of S4 is the show wanking itself off and then having the diverse space lesbian save the day in a fifteen-minute long mindless action scene that would make JJ Abrams proud.
No amount of memberberries will change the fact that this is peak NuTrek slop through and through.
Beckett is basically Lina Inverse in space, and I love her for it.
Also, why is she ashamed of liking the warp core? I get it's just a character joke, but still.
>Also, why is she ashamed of liking the warp core
Because Boimler likes it and she doesn't want to be a dork like him.
Why do people find Mariner attractive?
confidence is attractive, also jungle fever
>jungle fever
That's not very star trek of you
Having sex with black women is pure trek
Why didn't the south go nuke after watching this?
Because southern stations simply blacklisted the episode from airing.
Have evidence(s) to back up those statements?
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Plato%27s_Stepchildren_(episode)#Reception
The book "The Fifty Year MIssion" probably has some good anecdotes about that. It's a real riot if you want the skinny on behind the scenes Trek.
Is that real?
The image? Yes.
yeah, they were crawling under the botany lab and got mad stoned off hallucinogenics
Some of them tried, but most of them weren't watching the show in the first place.
the South has had jungle fever since Thomas Jefferson's time
Still better than the white version tbqh
Not really. Most of the show was sacrificed for him to have a nothing story.
Not worshipping the Antichrist.
It was in bad taste to have Isaac's slave master be a Christian when it was Christianity that ended the practice throughout most of the world. Then they go and have a blonde-haired, blue-eyed Aryan in the middle of the African desert be the one to try to re-enslave the black man. Anyone saying this show isn't woke is in denial just because it has decent fight scenes.
>just because it has decent fight scenes.
Less and less I feel like I could appreciate a good fight when people keep saying that.
That was a decent fight when compared to most modern TV animation scenes.
>inb4 weeb seethe
I can't objectively judge the fight because I can't invested in the characters, stakes, or the story. Also, Isaac's plot armor is thick as frick. The same reason why I don't clap like a seal in this scene.
Is this suppose to be good?
Supposed to be? Yes. Does it succeed? No.
Mariner fricks up constantly and doesn't have people instantly liking her so I would say no. Rey Skywalker would be a much better modern example.
Sure, if you completely ignore the established definition of "Mary Sue."
There's nothing wrong with disliking a character. But it's useful to have a better understanding of why you dislike them.
>constant depictions of flaws and struggles
>BUT SHE'S A MARY SUE BECAUSE SHE KNOWS HOW TO FIGHT GUIZE HONESTLY
Lmao no
Do we ever get confirmation on what the bird dude's species is called?
Lower Decks is good, you'll need to forgive the first few episodes of season 1 as it establishes itself.
Really it's like one-third of every season that is needed to establish that Mariner is never wrong for any reason.
No, she started out that way, but she had her vulnerable moments, and she's not perfect at everything.
at one point, she was literally swept off her feet by a white saviour, and she loved it.
While that episode caught me off guard, it absolutely *reeked* of being written solely so the writers could say exactly what you just said. "See? She doesn't always save the day! Look at this square jawed Chad rescue her! It's not predictable tripe!"
One episode later it was back to business as usual with Mariner having no meaningful flaws outside of being obnoxious. She literally has to pretend to be incompetent so she doesn't get promoted.
The show definitely got better about this over time, but season 1 was literally just The Mariner is Always Right Show: Featuring Her Incompetent Sidekicks
You don’t understand anons, I NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDD to impregnate her NOW!
I dont think she is a Mary Sue. The series is much more Simpsons or Tom and Jerry.
So in the end she has to survive or win. Kinda how all main characters will.
Pretty much. Minority status so you can't criticize a legitimate problem with them or you're a racist "chud". Right out of the leftist playbook.
>lesbian
>muh emotional trauma
>overly competent
Yeah.
>another shitty thread for this lesbian slop
Just frick off to Reddit already.
Lower decks is trek kino
>a straight couple subverted in favor of surprise lesbians
>muh emotional trauma
>diverse lesbian Mary Sue main character who is better than everyone else but self-sabotages so the show can pat itself on the back for basic character development
>millennial writing and references instead of actual jokes
>smug writers that double down instead of listening to fan feedback
>shits (I mean deconstructs lol) on the source material without even understanding it
>dishonest nostalgia baiting
>constant subversions that always lead to the least satisfying outcome
>the plots are either a lazy “riff” on a trope or characters blowing shit up in mindless action scenes (or both)
>the most generic art style imaginable
It’s what you would get if you asked ChatGPT to give you an adult animated show and then manually added in Star Trek references. And Trekkies still gobble this shit up.
McMahan is a hack and there's no editorial voice on the show. If it makes the terrible writers laugh it goes in. That's how we got whole episodes dedicated to cucking, incest rape, extreme violence, and mockery of the disabled
>cucking
are you the anon who cried over the giant ape jerking off to watching two other giant apes hump? Because there are apes that do that irl
Actually I was talking about the one where Boimler's girlfriend cucks him with a space parasite, but thank you for illustrating that the cuckolding and on-screen masturbation is many and sundry.
>McMahan is a hack
He’s the luckiest man in the industry. But with Solar Opposites’ silent cancellation and Paramount’s current situation, maybe we won’t have to endure his stunning creative output for much longer.
Hoo boy, lesbian obsessed anon is here because mariner is a bisexual
>bisexual
Yeah, like every single other female protagonist in those hacky cartoons.
awww, is anon triggered?
>obsessed
You keep inserting them in my media tho
Come up with something new, it’s not original anymore
ok, quit inserting straight people into everything then also yes I am the guy who makes these decisions, i am a big time executive dude
>quit inserting straight people into everything
You will never make straight people not the standard. It doesn't work that way, moron.
Put a chick in it and make her gay. I want it lame.
Mariner starts off annoying but they actually turn her into kind of a spaz over time
>our company is trying to sell itself
>quick make an astroturfed thread to harvest mentions in Sprout Social to artificially inflate the value of our IPs
Yawn.
Mariner gets called out on her bullshit quite a bit. Nothing Mary Sue about going on a crazed holodeck revenge fantasy while your friends tell you that you're a dickhead and bail.
>she’s so quirky and violent and damaged and misunderstood
>she needs therapy!
Textbook millennial Mary Sue.
Those goalposts are on wheels, eh?
That sequence sucked because it made Mariner come off as a complete psychopath and then tried to walk it back by literally having a holographic mariner explain what her character is meant to be to the audience
I cannot think of any lazier way to convey a character than having them literally read their description out loud
>mentions therapy in every script
I hate millennial writers.
I'd say go back to /trek/ but your endless b***hing about anything made after 2001 finally killed it
Your endless homosexualry and jerking off to cartoon lesbians killed /trek/, so good job!
Delusional till the end. All people wanted to do was talk about star trek.
>all people on Cinemaphile wanted to do was talk about star trek
>it sure wasn't a constant /misc/ and fetish circlejerk no sir
why must you turn this board into a house of lies
>talk about star trek
All you talk about is which crudely drawn cartoon lesbian you want to frick.
Besides, there has been no new Star Trek since 2005. And now, Paramount is selling itself because no one wanted to watch this slop. Your failure is complete.
Mariner isn't even a lesbian they constantly show her being attracted to guys
your brain rot is so complete you literal can't perceive reality because it doesn't fit the narrative you want
>all serious love interests are female
>but she mentions liking guys every now and then
WELL THAT’S ALRIGHT THEN
>all serious love interests
What serious love interests? She had one date with Jennifer and than instantly broke up with her before their was any character development between them
>main character spends 1/4th of the entire show in a lesbian relationship
>but they break up
WELL THAT’S ALRIGHT THEN
one season in which its a plot point in exactly one episode
Glad to see you aren't at all over reacting
>main character’s only romantic relationship given narrative weight is lesbian
>but sometimes she says she’s into men
WELL THAT’S ALRIGHT THEN
>given narrative weight
lol just admit you hate that lesbians exist and you want Star Trek to reflect your bigotry
Her relationship with Jen is honestly the shallowest least important thing that ever happens but just the show just acknowledging that people can be gay is too "woke" for your taste
>the main character is lesbian like in every other cartoon made in current year
>but it doesn’t matter and it’s only there to dab on the chuds
OH WELL THAT’S ALRIGHT THEN
sorry but you aren't some discriminated minority that suffers greatly because of all the lesbians in cartoons
>the show is painfully lazy and unoriginal
>but at least it pushes my personal agenda
OH WELL THAT’S ALRIGHT THEN!
You forgot her lesbian relationship with her academy girlfriend
Mariner liking dudes has mostly been Tawny's improv, everything written has had her munching carpet
>Mariner isn't a lesbian
NTA but Inb4 she's bisexual/les"bi"an leaning. Mariner admits to only going after bad boys to piss off her parents like a stereotypical modern calib***h but is never shown in a relationship with one. Even tge orgy episide had her be disgusted by the men but turned on by the girls making out which shows she's only pretending to be bi since lesbians are boring/stale. Ironically though all the romances she ever puts effort into/truly loves are lesbian/sapphic and the latest season is about how she's sad her friend she wanted to lez out with died showing off on a mission at Starfleet. At this point she might as well be a lesbian because she comes off as a lying tryhard at being bisexual.
>Even tge orgy episide had her be disgusted by the men but turned on by the girls making out which shows she's only pretending to be bi since lesbians are boring/stale.
Mariner is fundamentally a contrarian so intentionally claiming to be bi so that she doesn't have to pick a "normal" orientation like straight or gay is 100% in character.
Mariner feels more like a deconstruction of a Mary Sue.
Like what would really happen if there was a nepobaby girlboss who refused to follow orders and play by the rules in a military organisation and was constantly shooting off at the mouth, making back alley deals and being a loose cannon?
Obviously she'd get treated like an unliable spoiled brat, get busted down to the lowest possible rank, push away most of her friends and supporters and be forced to actually develop a sense of personal responsibility and maturity or continue to languish and fail.
>deconstruction
These hack writers couldn’t deconstruct a sofa from IKEA to save their lives.
Nice quip but he's not wrong that Mariner's perception of herself is way more glorified than how everyone else perceives her. She's nominally competent but her behavior makes shit harder for everyone else so when everyone thought she was shit talking the Cerritos to the media she wasn't given the benefit of the doubt because she cultivated the reputation of someone who would do exactly that. What makes a Mary Sue a Mary Sue isn't just how the character behaves but how everyone else behaves in response to that character. She doesn't get kicked off the ship because ultimately you still need a show, but its obvious everybody would prefer if she were less of a pain in the ass.
You’re conjuring up nuance where there is none because you want it to be there. You’re doing the job of the writers for them because the reality that the show is just going through the motions of a lazily-written adult cartoon is too unpleasant for you.
>I’m so weepy! I need therapy because I’m self-sabotaging!!! I push away people I love!!!
You know how Mariners are there in current year media? It’s a stock 2020s female character and you fell for the grift.
>"Is that...a female character with acknowledged flaws??? Ayeeee, that's too woke for me to handle, save me Master Berman!"
They’re not flaws because the show thinks they’re virtues, and is actually firmly on Mariner’s side.
>I’m like this because of my trauma! It’s not my fault!
>"Those things that the character repeatedly gets shit on for? Those are actually virtues! Fire is wet! Up is down! I am smart!"
The show literally rewrote history and TNG’s Lower Decks to make Mariner right. It implied that Picard sent poor little Sito to her death when in the episode she volunteered. And that’s why Mariner has a problem with Starfleet.
This is the lengths these writers will go to prop up their creation. They will rewrite history of Star Trek (and how Starfleet works) so they can fix it and then pat themselves on the back for fixing it.
>entire point of the TNG Lower Decks episode is showing normal missions from the perspective of junior officers who don't know all the facts and have to rely on rumours and speculation
>anon is mad because a junior officer character doesn't know all the facts and relies on rumours and speculation
true pottery
>anon is mad because a junior officer character doesn't know all the facts and relies on rumours and speculation
Don’t be silly. We all know those characters know literally everything, even things they realistically shouldn’t know, because the show relies on them namedropping memberberries all the time. But I’ll indulge you…
>she didn’t know that Picard warned her not to go!!!
Realistically, she wouldn’t even know why she died because a mission like this would be classified. It could have been an unfortunate accident for all she knows. Those happen, right?
>lectures someone else on what happened in a TNG episode
>doesn't even know that a pivotal moment of the episode was Picard announcing to the entire ship that she died while on a mission
I'm sure you'll move the goalposts yet again to try and say why this doesn't count because you have no self-awareness.
>”died in the line of duty”
>this totally means I sent her to her death on a risky secret spy mission yo!
I’m not moving any goalposts, pal. It’s just a bad show.
You can't have it both ways. Every time someone points out instances of Mariner getting her shit called out suddenly that too is a problem and Mary Sue-ish?
As we’ve established, “her shit” is not actually her fault and her getting criticized only serves to make her look more sympathetic.
A character can be both sympathetic and wrong. You know this.
>let’s just violate the Prime Directive! colonialism rules!
She can’t be wrong because she’s the writer’s surrogate. And the writer thinks his Californian shitlib morals are superior to what Gene came up.
>She can’t be wrong
So we're just ignoring the actual show now and strawmanning it to hell and back then, are we? She is objectively shown to be wrong several times. You're just straight up lying now. It's not even a difference of opinion here. You're lying about the content to fit your narrative.
Mike, you’re a failed comedy writer. You’re in no position to tell Gene Roddenberry how Starfleet should operate. Especially when you didn’t even understand the source material because you dropped out of undergraduate English and bragged about it on a podcast.
Mariner is the showrunner’s surrogate. He claims to love Star Trek, but he only loves for it what he thinks it should be instead of what it already is. And if you love Star Trek for what it could or should be instead of what it is, then you don’t really love Star Trek.
TNG stopped following Roddenberry's directives before the body was cold.
>instead of what it already is.
In your own words, what is it?
>He claims to love Star Trek, but he only loves for it what he thinks it should be
I don't think that's true, I just think he loves Star Trek for the worst of its soap opera and action flick tendencies rather than for the vision of an enlightened future or age-of-sail "action."
I also think that's true of most of the people writing for Star Trek these days.
The enlightened future vision fell in on itself when DS9 hit airwaves. A lot of these complaints I'm reading are acting as if they're new. I can't imagine how much shit DS9 would get if it came out today. Sisko would be accused of being a Mary Sue for sure. Dude opens his show by yelling at Picard, does pragmatic but arguably unethical things yet the show seems in favor of it, and is seen as a religious figure by the people he's supposed to be bringing into the Federation. Then he gets a cool warship to boot. Yet everyone loves Sisko and DS9, and rightfully so. But in the current climate it would be shit on by the same people b***hing about Mariner.
Also, be punched Q and then Q never came back.
>The enlightened future vision fell in on itself when DS9 hit airwaves
Not in the same way or severity. DS9 was an attempt to directly challenge the enlightened future and have it try to hold up in the face of real threats to the heart of the Federation. A lot of people were upset about the shit that went down on earth and with the keystone episode Pale Moonlight, which is kind of to my point, but in terms of characterization and interpersonal conduct it was still very much in the TNG vein. You didn't have Starfleet officers acting like petty children.
>Everyone loves Sisko and DS9
homie what
Everyone loves Garak and Quark and maybe Bashir. The Starfleet crew were easily the weakest part of DS9.
>You didn't have Starfleet officers acting like petty children.
I mean, granted, true. But Lower Decks is also fundamentally an animated comedy. I think that entitles it to latitude when it's obviously a different genre on its face.
It entitles it to SOME latitude, but not "mother trying to rape her son" latitude or "apes jerking off on screen" latitude
That's exactly what people were worried was going to happen when the show was announced, that it would just be another "adult comedy" leaning on crude shock value with a Trek coat of paint.
>not liking Sisko
>not liking punished O'Brien
>not liking Worf, who is 1000x better than he is in Generations
Dax was the weakest but there were a couple good Trill eps. Kira was also weak but she isn't Starfleet.
>Sisko
He had his moments but for the most part he was "guy that can only act convincingly if he's yelling"
>punished O'Brien
punished too much IMO. He did a good job but he's pretty flat as a character. He's a straight man for others to play off of but they wound up using Bashir for that role most of the time.
>Worf is 1000x better than he was in Generations
Generations was terrible so that's a bad baseline. He was more or less a totally different character from TNG Worf. Flanderized, even.
Garak and Quark carried that show on their shoulders, for all the whining people do nowadays of the Ferengi being israeli stereotypes they were the most entertaining and well-developed group of characters on DS9.
Don't forget Odo. Odo was cool.
I'm sorry, you're absolutely right. Odo was great and if anything they didn't use him enough. He had good chemistry with basically everyone.
Quark and Rom had a hard job. Considering what goofy ass villains the Ferengi were on TNG, it couldn't have been easy bringing dignity to the roles.
I just don't like how they basically turned the ferengi into boring social democrats in the last season to the point they don't even teach the rules of acquisition anymore. LD seems to show they're still greedy but that's by basically ignoring that part, which was just stupid.
I mean it's one thing for Ferengi to decide to exploit women too, it's a whole other for them to decide to stop being greedy when their entire religion is built around greed.
One argument could be that there was a financial incentive since the more the Ferengi integrated into galactic society the more organizations and species they could do business with but only if they didn't come off as untrustworthy swindlers.
That doesn't matter, that's like saying that the Klingons should stop caring about honor because it's less effective. The Rules of Acquisition were cool. The Ferengi being greedy were cool. Them suddenly turning into nice social democrats who care about worker rights and taxes and all that gay-ass federation shit completely and utterly ruins them as a concept.
If the ferengi are no longer greedy, what makes them different from every other federation species?
The Klingons being about honor itself is often an informed attribute rather than demonstrated. Worf has an idealized view of Klingon culture because he was raised outside of Klingon society and overcompensates. But a shit ton of the Klingons we see are backstabbing, politically savvy schemers.
Yes, and there are Ferengi who care about stuff other than greed. But what matters is that it's their culture. Without greed, what sets the ferengi apart from everyone else?
They're excellent businessmen. Quark was doing forensic accounting for that Klingon woman he was in a sham marriage with to help her become head of her house.
They're still hypercapitalistic, just not ancap
Since when is social welfare, taxes, worker rights and not being greedy 'hypercapitalistic'?
>since when is all this stuff involving the transfer of ownership of private assets capitalist?
You're confusing libertarian anarcho-capitalism with the base premise of capitalism (private entities own and run industries for profit)
No, you're forgetting the "Hyper". Anyone in the federation can run a business. There are plenty of traders in the federation. The Ferengi being obsessed with it is what makes them different.
>Hyper means anarcho
No it doesn't
They're still obsessed with profit and private enterprise
Worker rights started because Rom unionized the bar. And Rom unionized because of the influence of other people on DS9. That's what happens when you have a melting pot. It's actually pretty realistic. The Japanese became pretty westernized after World War II when they couldn't avoid foreign influence.
Strong disagree - the Ferengi were the perfect way to have commentary on modern day economics without dirtying the Federation's hands.
My point wasn't about DS9's merits but more that it would be shit on today if it were a new show.
It was shit on then, it was just on phone BB's and usenets - the Cinemaphile's of the past
So in 20 years Lower Decks will be beloved and Star Trek Whatever will be seen as an insult to the franchise. The merry go round of fandoms.
not necessarily, everything gets shit on to some degree but not everything gets the positive attention
DS9 was shit on for that stuff but also had an enormous fanbase as well, I don't know that LD has the same base or staying power regardless of how much I personally dislike it.
You're complaining about violating the Prime Directive as a uniquely Lower Decks problem. That shit has been loosey goosey since day 1.
>we need to keep an armada over aliens’ planets to make sure they follow our shitlib ideals
They went far beyond violating it, mate. It’s really quite condescending (and frankly insulting) to imply that Kirk was a dumbass for leaving after Landru was dealt with.
Prime Directive is a Kantian ideal rooted in the ideas of self-determination. If aliens want to worship the computer again, it’s their choice and right. You don’t have any right to tell others what is right or wrong or what their destiny should be based on your presupposed ideas of morality. Star Trek is a rejection of universalism, but you’re a Californian shitlib so universalism is everything you’ve always believed in. And that’s why Star Trek always attracted people from all walks of life, but nowadays, it only appeals to those with the “correct” political inclinations.
I said everything I wanted to say. Toodles!
She'd be out on her ass for insubordination in a week and dead on a merc ship the next
You missed the nepobaby part
being a nepo baby can't save you from a court martial, just from a really bad sentencing
Being a nepobaby can save you from almost anything under the right circumstances
Ro Laren's insubordination literally got people killed and she was allowed to not only keep her commission, but get busted out of jail early and given a bridge job on the fricking Enterprise.
Starfleet has less of a stick up its ass than you want to think. There's a reason Mairner kept getting busted back down to ensign when she could've been a senior officer by now.
>she was allowed to not only keep her commission, but get busted out of jail
Anon
She was thrown in fricking prison
The only reason she was let out was because she had invaluable personal knowledge of an incredibly volatile and important situation and then had bridge officers from the motherfricking Enterprise vouching for her (and keeping her on a tight leash)
Yeah, Starfleet is pretty kids' gloves for a pseudo-navy, but the level to which Mariner has avoided being discharged is absurd.
That's on top of her character simply having no reason to be in Starfleet. She can do all the crazy heroics she wants as a mercenary or archaeologist without the Federation breathing down her neck.
>That's on top of her character simply having no reason to be in Starfleet. She can do all the crazy heroics she wants as a mercenary or archaeologist without the Federation breathing down her neck.
One of her more subtle character traits is that she really does like Starfleet though.
>more subtle character traits
If you have reading comprehension skills of a toddler, maybe. The word ‘subtle’ does not exist in these writers’ vernacular.
It's not even subtle when she explicitly says so multiple times. She likes Starfleet, she just thinks she's smarter than everyone else in the stuffy bureaucracy, even though the show repeatedly shows the stuffy bureaucracy working for actual reasons and Mariner's attitude is stupid.
There’s nothing worse than a dumb show thinking it’s a smart. Pretentious garbage.
You're making accusations that are based on nothing. Do you even know what the word pretentious means? You'd have a better argument calling DS9 pretentious. You'd still be wrong but the argument would hold more water.
>let’s rewrite the history of Star Trek because our character has to be right about Starfleet needing fixing!
It means this show is pretentious as frick.
It's not subtle, it's informed - that is to say it is repeatedly stated but never shown. The things she likes about Starfleet are things she could do without them.
Geordi also nearly got himself killed violating direct orders so he could continue to chase a ghost. Granted, he did think it was his mother but the only consequence was Picard noting the insubordination on is record. And Scotty started a literal fistfight with a bunch of Klingons because they insulted the ship.
Threads like this make it clear that there's a certain subset of "people" who only engage with media for the sake of complaining about it.
How about you try making some good entertainment for once without shoveling the agenda into it?
impossible, even when an agenda isn't there you will imagine one like you are doing right now
Ironically Trek of all IPs is most justified in having an agenda since its built into its DNA from the start. So agenda or not, he's a moron either way.
Same to you.
Reminder that Jesus will kill lesbians when he comes back
First episode she literally says shes always right. Its taken a long time and some effort to get away from that but she has.
Still don't like her.
Has it ever been commented on how the Ferengi can even do business in a world with replicator technology?
If TNG is any indication, replicator are still highly specialized equipment and cannot themselves be easily replicated. When people colonizing planets need the friggin' Flagship to deliver a single Replicator before they can pull themselves up by their bootstraps, it seems like you cannot simply conjur a replicator put of thin air.
And they trade in Latinum (and I assume Dilithium), something that cannot be replicated.
Also, they likely deal in 'bodies' because yeah you can replicate iron, but it might he easier to just strip-mine a planet. There always seems to be mining in Star Trek, from TOS up through VOY.
I liked it when we saw Ferengi TV, that was awesome
No. She's really fricking stupid. Its legitimately a major flaw that other characters seem to recognize.
God I need an episode where she's captured and sold by Orion's and ends up getting saved by the crew at the end of the episode
i would buy her
I think the turning point for Mariner was when they immediately rolled back the thing about her and Freeman working together from the end of season 1 at the very start of season 2
Making her not just always right but also giving her super special privileges on top was extreme Mary Sue bullshit but after that she started becoming more of a rounded character