Reminder to not criticize SNEED for the mistakes Destiny made.
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It still holds up pretty good.
Reminder to not criticize SNEED for the mistakes Destiny made.
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The endless flashbacks in every fricking episode made SEED a slog to get through after a while.
It's so ugly looking that it's unwatchable. WTF happened between King Gainer and SEED?
what shaders are you using?
King Gainer’s character designer actually knew how to draw human beings and not weird melted dolls like SEED’s character designer.
A lot of early 2000s anime was ugly during the transition to fully digital. Some handled it better than others.
>SNEED
First of all, stop talking like a meme-spewing imbecile. We already had a shartyBlack person raid last night.
Second, all of Destiny's mistakes have their root in the first series. I don't know what is it that is "holding up", other than doing a miserable job at being a 0079 ripoff, with hideous character designs.
>with hideous character designs.
then why are they so popular?
You are aware that the fujo market is gigantic, right? Selling shit to them is basically printing money. SEED falls right into the market for, say, a sports anime or UtaPri. Just look at the Comiket circle counts:
>popularity with the masses means that a work is good!
Did this person ever watch Destiny? I'd feel sorry if they did.
I'm not following. While Destiny is objectively a worse show for reasons this board has argued to oblivion, every shortcoming it has came originally from SEED. And I'm fricking sick and tired of the revisionism:
>seed was okay but destiny was crap
It doesn't work like that. And no, the "it was written on a tight schedule" argument isn't an excuse, since every Gundam TV series and a bunch of the OVAs has done just that, and yet none has shit the bed to such a degree.
You are a moron. While it's true that a lot of destiny's problems were present in SEED, the scale and intensity of these problems is much worse in Destiny. Although SEED has the same problems, they don't detract from the show too much and it is still an enjoyable watch. So yes, seed was okay but destiny was crap
>they don't detract from the show too much and it is still an enjoyable watch
It's not an enjoyable show because its ideas, when it is not poorly copying the original series, are crap:
>the zaft kids are good guys now? let's put a trio of morons in gundams! who are theyl you ask? who cares!
>put the pop princess as a ship captain!
>the villain only acts mysterious? he wants to kill everyone!
>oh, newtypes! i need newtypes! where are my newtypes?!
And that is not mentioning the technical shortcomings, like mecha animation sequences that are so flashy to the point of distraction, the endless use of flashbacks and melodramatic drama writing.
The show should've been along the lines of Imagawa's "Polka Gundam" (planned soft reboot of 0079 set on Mars during the late UC, which was shelved by Sunrise in favor of a "tournament arc with Gundams"), or at least try to improve on First Gundam's groundwork. Fukuda isn't totally incompetent as a director, but this franchise isn't his thing.
I thought that the dynamic between Kira and Arthrun was an interesting concept that hadn't yet really been explored in a Gundam show before SEED. Also I liked Flay as a character and she really carried the first 15 or so episodes. I do agree though the second half was when the show turned into slop with the moron trio in the designated jobber gundams, rau, and so on.
>I thought that the dynamic between Kira and Arthrun was an interesting concept that hadn't yet really been explored in a Gundam show before SEED.
>Also I liked Flay as a character and she really carried the first 15 or so episodes.
See, that's the problem. If the show was outright bad (eg. AGE, Macross Delta, Valvrave), it could just be shelved and forgotten for good. SEED, on the other hand, has a number of very interesting ideas, but they are so poorly executed that you end up annoyed as to what could've been instead.
I'll be the first person to tell you that Tomino is an insane old coot, 00 did a great job at doing something interesting with the franchise at first, and that the UC (especially the endless OYW rethreading) needs to either stop or take its ideas in a different direction. But two wrongs don't make a right.
>the dynamic between Kira and Arthrun was an interesting concept that hadn't yet really been explored in a Gundam show before SEED
It was shit and AGE did it better.
You fix SEED by forcing Kira to kill Athrun, and make Yzak, the actual established rival up to that point into the sidekick after Patrick Zala loses his mind over the death of his son and even starts persecuting his allies (Ezalia Joule) for “not being radical enough” as extremists inevitably eat their own.
Then you have Kira frick Cagalli while Yzak fricks Flay, giving hope for a future where naturals and coordinators can live in harmony.
>It was shit and AGE did it better.
What? When? Where? AGE attempted to be a family generational drama, not a "friendship torn between two sides of a war".
>and make Yzak, the actual established rival up to that point into the sidekick
Why would that happen, and how? Unlike Dearka, Yzak was always loyal and never defected from ZAFT. Even in the movie promo pictures, his helmet doesn't have the emblem of the Lacus faction. And how do you even bring Flay to this equation?
Zeheart and Asemu were friends torn apart by obligation to family and their sides in the war.
And before the SEEDgay starts reactposting about how Asemu and Zeheart are worse than Kira and Athrun, here’s food for thought:
Asemu and Zeheart’s friendship began, blossomed, and withered on screen. We the viewer were there to see it all.
By contrast, Kira and Athrun’s relationship is pre-established and we’re expected to just “take it as is”. In fact the only real scene we get of them as friends before being enemies is the scene where Athrun gives Kira Birdy in that flashback. Which Fukuda re-used too many times to count. No instances of them meeting, bonding, attending classes together. Nada. Zilch. Zip. Yet it’s a driver for one of the most important elements of the show with such a shaky foundation.
This is why all the bad writing in CE Gundam inevitably and inescapably revolves around 1 of 2 characters: Athrun Zala and/or Lacus Clyne.
>Asemu and Zeheart’s friendship began, blossomed, and withered on screen. We the viewer were there to see it all.
>By contrast, Kira and Athrun’s relationship is pre-established and we’re expected to just “take it as is”. In fact the only real scene we get of them as friends before being enemies is the scene where Athrun gives Kira Birdy in that flashback. Which Fukuda re-used too many times to count. No instances of them meeting, bonding, attending classes together. Nada. Zilch. Zip. Yet it’s a driver for one of the most important elements of the show with such a shaky foundation.
This is an issue for all of SEED: taking things at face value. Lacus and Kira are supposed to be a couple (and so were Athrun and Lacus before), yet we barely see any romance between them. Or the "friendship" between Kira and the Heliopolis kids, when they don't interact much at all.
The epitome of this is pic related, where Kira says that there are things Sai might be good at, but Kira isn't. This is never developed in any way beyond this one scene.
Someone with more experience on the subject matter could help me out here, but, considering what Morosawa has said in interviews, I think this is a J-Drama thing.
Likewise, Athrun and Kira's "friendship", which is a thing that exists despite treating each other like, at best, colleagues. Yzak and Dearka act more friendly to each other than Kira and Athrun.
It's hilarious that, when Athrun shows up in Orb with the Justice and saves Kira's skin, he berates him instead. It's especially hypocritical when you put Destiny for context, where Kira zips around on the Freedom and sticks his nose into battles, loyalty or consequences be damned.
It helps that Yzak and Dearka are both extroverts while Kira and Athrun are both introverts, so you can portray a convincing friendship with less screen time. But even still Shinn and Rey are also introverts yet their friendship was more convincing that Kira and Athrun’s.
>while Kira and Athrun are both introverts, so you can portray a convincing friendship with less screen time.
Stop making excuses for lousy writing. There's nothing convincing about Kira and Athrun's "friendship". Zero.
>But even still Shinn and Rey are also introverts
Shinn? An introvert? Stop talking bullshit.
>AGE attempted to be a family generational drama, not a "friendship torn between two sides of a war".
That was its main focus. It also re-did Kira and Athrun’s dynamic with Asemu and Zeheart and did it 10x better.
>Yzak was always loyal and never defected from ZAFT
It helps to take the time to read and understand the post you are reacting to before typing out a response.
>It helps to take the time to read and understand the post you are reacting to before typing out a response.
It still doesn't make sense. Here:
>after Patrick Zala loses his mind over the death of his son
Patrick didn't care about Athrun, except using him as another tool for his revenge on the Naturals. Even in his dying breath, Patrick urged to fire Genesis, despite being aware of the consequences.
After shooting Athrun in the shoulder and sending his goons to torture him, it's kinda clear Patrick wouldn't be much affected over his death.
>Patrick didn't care about Athrun, except using him as another tool for his revenge on the Naturals
It’s more that he took him for granted. Even in that scene you’re showing, he takes Athrun for granted at first and, evidenced by his complete and utter dismissal of Athrun’s concerns about the war. Father and son were both talking past each other in that scenario.
But, as the saying goes, “You don’t know what you’ve lost until it’s gone forever”.
>it's kinda clear Patrick wouldn't be much affected over his death
It’s not clear at all because Athrun didn’t actually die. He was still alive, and able to back talk Patrick after taking a bullet. Put a lifeless, cooling corpse in front of him instead and that’s a different story.
Now imagine instead of Patrick pulling the trigger, Athrun dies in combat at the hands of an EA pilot ZAFT assumes is a natural, like the natural who killed his wife. That drives his extremism to new level, levels of irrationality that other radicals like Ezalia Joule do not reach because they haven’t suffered the same type of loss. As such, Patrick gets irritated with his own allies, starts to question their loyalty to their cause, and uses the same blunt powers he used against Siegel Clyne to punish his allies for “not being radical enough”. Because, as I said, extremists eat their own. A victim of this, Ezalia has some time of self-reflection. She is a radical like Patrick but not genocidal for its own sake - her goal is to defend the PLANTs but she realizes that Patrick is on a path of self-destruction and intends to take everyone else with him - including their nation. In response, she uses whatever powers she can to give Yzak a new gundam, tells him to leave and that he’s their last hope.
In any case - it can work. It’s foolish for thinking Patrick wouldn’t change a bit of Athrun actually died. It really reflects a deficit of life experience on your part.
>AGE did it better
I'll take "statements that have never been true in any situation" for $800, Alex.
>I have shit taste: the post.
Kio made AGE shit, anon. SEED is only better than AGE overall because Flit and Asemu’s arcs happen in the same series.
Oh great, another UC elitist. Frick off.
UC Black folk will never stop eternally seething about SEED and its hilarious. I wished it replaced UC like it was supposed to, to put you homosexuals in your place
Where is the "UC elitism" there? Point it out.
>I wished it replaced UC like it was supposed to, to put you homosexuals in your place
But it didn't. The SEED homosexualry could only get a movie after 20 years of incompetence.
I want to see the sameface Hirai image he posts in this
Ask and ye shall receive.
Thank you. I appreciate the heart that went into this.
First off, thing don't hold up GOOD they hold up WELL. Secondly,
>SNEED
Shut the frick up you gigantic moronic.
It's garbage for little girls with the mind of 30 year old tobacco merchandising obsessed housewives. Not even the art is good.
Seed is good right till the point Kira becomes Jesus.
>Seed is good
except for the character designs, the flashbacks and the drama with kira crying for no reason
Ok, Seed is fine but not great.
Part 2 of AGE is great, it's why it got the OVA.
>Backwards. From you
My argument is that a parent would react differently to news their child had died (either by their own hand or a member of the same group which also killed their wife) than their reaction when they shoot said child but the child survives. No, by arguing against that you are demonstrating your own naïveté on the matter.
>sense of drama that doesn't really exist in real life.
Not really. Extremists eat their own by resorting to ideological purity tests all the time. Just look at the war between “transgender activists” and “TERFs”, both radical left, but one slightly less than the other yet they both hate each other.
Also, you’re complaining about levels of drama? In SEED? The space mecha soap opera? Give me a break.
The point I'm making is that, because of the war and his personal tragedy, Patrick doesn't perceive Athrun as a "son" anymore, but rather a blunt instrument of revenge. In the same way his acquaintanceship with Siegel eroded to a deadly point, the same happened here. She's fricking called "Leonore", so it's not like you have to think too hard about it.
Considering the characterization at work here, it's a bit absurd to think that Patrick could get more fricked in the head, especially if it involves Athrun, for whom there's little to no affection shown.
>instead of Patrick pulling the trigger, Athrun dies in combat at the hands of an EA pilot ZAFT assumes is a natural, like the natural who killed his wife
This is nonsensical. If Patrick was concerned about his son's well-being, why would he send him to a war in the first place (Patrick was who pulled him out of Copernicus)? Rule one of getting personally involved in an armed conflict is that there's a large probability that you will get killed.
>Patrick doesn't perceive Athrun as a "son" anymore, but rather a blunt instrument of revenge.
Yes, because AS I SAID, he’s taking him for granted. And again, AS I SAID, people tend to react differently when something they’ve taken for granted leaves them forever.
>absurd to think that Patrick could get more fricked in the head
No. In canon he fires GENESIS at military targets first, only revealing it after the EA uses nukes. The story could change such that he’s even more blinded by hatred that he tries to aim and fire it at Earth the moment it is complete.
You only call it absurd due to your lack of experience and naïveté, which, to repeat myself, is AS I SAID.
>why would he send him to a war in the first place
Athrun chose to become a soldier after his mother died.
Moreover your same line of reasoning fails when you consider what happened to Nicol: Son of a council member who became a soldier out of duty. When he died his father was so aggrieved be locked himself away and developed the Neutron Jammer Cancellors, crucial technology that accelerated the war.
In other words, there is precedent for what I am proposing, because it’s analogous to what happened in the actual canon.
Instead of Nicol dying Athrun dies.
Instead of Yuri Amalfi speeding up NJC development Patrick Zala’s ideological descent is accelerated.
You are just opposed to it all because, and don’t lie and weasel your way out of it, you are an Athrun fanboy who cannot accept the validity of any alternative hypothesis that involves his death.
>he’s taking him for granted
No matter how many times you screech "AS I SAID" like some despot, it doesn't make it the truth. You are making shit up without any substance. When did Patrick care even a bit for Athrun? Your babbling about "Patrick taking Athrun for granted" has zero proof in the story.
>The story could change such that he’s even more blinded by hatred that he tries to aim and fire it at Earth the moment it is complete.
More nonsense from your end. What would be the point of firing GENESIS at Earth first, if there's still an EA military presence in space?
>and don’t lie and weasel your way out of it, you are an Athrun fanboy
Okay, I can take the immaturity charge on the chin, but you went way too far there, Black person. Athrun is among the worst-written characters in this fricking thing, and that is saying a lot. I will repeat what I posted on some other thread:
>In both SEED and Destiny, Athrun is a windmill that points towards whomever is strongest at that point: Rau, his father, Lacus/Kira, Cagalli, Durandal, Lacus/Kira again. His whole shtick is "personal conflict for the sake of conflict". You're left wondering whether he's ever had any sort of personal belief that that isn't just doing the bidding of his superiors, because even his so-called 'friendship' with Kira is suspect..
> MBTI
Of course it’s shit. Women made it.
Try Carl Jung, Oscar Ichazo, Claudio Naranjo, Don Richard Riso and Russ Hudson.
>Claudio Naranjo
One of the worst charlatans my country has ever produced in its tortured history.
I’m actually tempted to agree. Most of his writing is subpar. Fundamental to the field but got a lot of shit wrong and his followers are morons (Beatrice Chestnut should not be taken seriously at all). I like Riso-Hudson more. Don’t say that on any personality site like personality-database or they will crucify you though.
You think some people being more social than others is made up bullshit?
Have you ever stepped outside?
Destiny is easily the low-point of the entirety of the franchise's anime series, but that doesn't mean SEED was great. It went to shit as soon as Kira got the Freedom, and that's not implying the series was good before he got it.
>and that's not implying the series was good before he got it.
My working theory is that, other than the obvious nostalgia goggles, it's contrarianism ("da mean people on de interwebz say it bad, so it must be good!") and sunken costs ("it can't be that i wasted twenty hours watching garbage! it can't be!").
Very organic posts. Nice samegayging
I know it's silly to argue this, but no, it's not a samegay.
As someone that dislikes SEED, I am willing to admit that there were things that SEED did that were pretty good:
1. The music and MS designs were top notch. Obviously the music is where most of the budget went, to the detriment of the rest of the show, but it's definitely memorable.
2. The Kira-Athrun friendship-rivalry is probably done better in other anime but wasn't really something done in Gundam at that point. Gundam had rivals, but they were never former friends, which did add to the drama and kept engagement with the audience.
3. Waltfeld is a blatant Ramba Ral clone, it's true, but Ral's face-to-face encounters with Amuro were very limited. Waltfeld played a much bigger role in the show.
4. Dearka's character arc on the Archangel is one of the better examples of character development in a side character in the franchise. Again, nothing new in anime but it's hard to rank it below many Gundam examples.
Of course, all of this about evens out with all of the bad shit, the show has its high points and low. Where the show lands on the overall spectrum after everything averages out is up for debate.
I remember watching SEED as a teenager and thinking the whole thing was bullshit when the crew of the Archangel acted like Natarle was a monster committing war crimes for pointing out to ZAFT that Lacus was on their ship, successfully getting them to back down.
I watched SEED as a kid, therefore I like it.
Enjoyed it back then, and I still like it even now. Simple as that.
Yzak my favorite.