Dick has had roughly 380 solo issues, including Dickbats and Grayson, since 1995.
Yet Blockbuster is his only major recurring villain, and he's a shitty Kingpin knockoff. Everybody else dies, is never used again, gets stolen by Batman or another batfamily member, or jobs severely when used in another book.
Is there any established character with a long running solo that can rival Dick's shitty rogue gallery?
How would you fix their rogue galleries?
>Is there any established character with a long running solo that can rival Dick's shitty rogue gallery?
Aquaman/Wonder Woman
>Circe
>Ares
>Giganta
>Veronica Cale
>Dr Psycho
>Cheetah
Diana's rogue gallery is just fine tbh. They just need to be used in villain team ups and not job so general DC fans know about them.
Circe needs to be marketed as Diana’s arch nemesis. She’d be Diana’s Joker, her Lex Luthor.
THe problem is that most of those characters suck. Yeah, you named a half-dozen characters but so what? Giganta isn't even really a villain anymore either because people liked her relationship with Ryan Choi and any time they try and go back to her being a villain it doesn't last.
>Giganta isn't even really a villain anymore either because people liked her relationship with Ryan Choi and any time they try and go back to her being a villain it doesn't last.
Do you even read comics? She dated Ryan Choi like once and then went right back to being a villain.
The "Wondy doesn't have decent villains" crowd not beating the "doesn't even read comics relating to her" allegations
And then every time she "goes back to being a villain" she teams up with Wonder Woman or whatever soon after. Because she's not particularly interesting as a villain. Because Wonder Woman doesn't have any interesting villains. Most of them are too lame to even think of ways to really reinvent. People don't just say "oh, Wonder Woman has bad villains" because it's some meme, she has bad villains because most of them are just shitty characters with shitty gimmicks that don't make for interesting stories.
Hell, you can argue that characters like Giganta or Doctor Poison reforming plays into Diana's whole thing about her being more loving and whatnot that was at the core of her creation and intended to set her apart from other superheroes and that playing up the warrior or myth aspect is completely missing the point of the character entirely. But it also means that recurring villains don't really work since it also somewhat undermines that concept too.
>she teams up with Wonder Woman or whatever soon after
I can think of one single story where she teams up with WW, and she specifically does it against her will.
Giganta may not be that interesting, but she's peak "we need a simple villain", she just shows up and jobs, she didn't get reformed or redeemed.
You don't get the underlying psychology of WW's classic villains. They're not insane, they're perfectly rational people engaging in antisocial behavior due to underlying maladjustments. Giganta is a bully writ large, a weakly, sickly girl who spent her formative years getting mocked and teased only to immediately start wrecking other people's lives to get what she wants the moment she got a bit of power. She's willing to help Diana when she feels it is in her best interest to help Diana because even though she doesn't like Diana because she's not an idiot slaved to her neuroses.
>People don't just say "oh, Wonder Woman has bad villains" because it's some meme, she has bad villains because most of them are just shitty characters with shitty gimmicks that don't make for interesting stories.
No moron, it's because writers don't bother to develop them or even use them at all, the gimmicks of Diana's villains aren't any different than the gimmicks Batman or Superman villains, it's just that writers don't usually even bother to properly focus on them.
>it's because writers don't bother to develop them or even use them at all
Because there's nothing there. The characters are one note and the note isn't particularly interesting so nobody wants anything to do with them. They tried with Egg Fu and it didn't work because at the end of the day he's still a talking egg and even if you "serious" him up he's an inherently stupid character. The ones that have stuck around are basically the best of a bad lot and they're still largely worse than a lot of other characters C-list villains because ultimately Doctor Psycho is one dimensional or most people aren't going to take Cheetah seriously as a threat to Wonder Woman no matter how much you go "actually she's powered by the gods too" or whatever because most people just see Tigra with no bikini or a woman in a cat costume and again the actual character isn't that interesting because the "best" incarnation of her is "she's crazy or has a split personality or something."
Egg Fu has been a regular supporting character in Harley Quinn's books for the last decade. I'm pretty sure he showed up more in Harley's book than all of his other appearances combined. But instead of using the legitimately creepy revamp the 52 team did, they turned him into a joke character.
That was the shitty Harley book, and it's not like the New 52 WW book was interested in doing anything even close to silly.
I loved Egg Fu's Science Squad and wished they showed up more often. Such a fun group is collecting dust.
All the WW villains frick heroes, it doesn't make them less villainous. Remember when Darkseid took over the world and Cheetah decided to frick Snapper Carr?
Technically Circe fricked/or will frick Superman in a potential future and give him an heir, as shown in Future State.
I like her rebirth design.
I think Wonder Woman would be great in a Batman: The Brave and The Bold cartoon series where she travels the world as an ambassador and teams up with the locals to solve a mystery and save the day.
>Aquaman/Wonder Woman
Aquaman? Maybe. But at least Black Manta and Ocean Master are two of the best comic book villains.
But Wondy's rogues gallery is actually underrated, just really misused. A lot like Wondy herself actually.
Yeah Wonder Woman's rogues are barely used outside of her comics.
Veronica in 52 (mid 00s), Circe in JLD (late '10s), and Dr Psycho in Villains United and Manhunter (mid 00s) are the only times I can think where her villains have shown up in other DC books beyond cameos and written respectfully instead of just jobbing like Giganta and Cheetah.
Hell just a couple weeks ago Villainy Inc showed up in World's Finest and jobbed there but what else can you expect from Waid.
These are just characters that don't have any good comics.
Wonder Woman has a good gallery, the problem is NO ONE WANTS TO USE THEM.
Bullshit, Iron Man has a good gallery, but again no one wants to use them now.
Also Dynamo III was a great nemesis, but you never actually read the comics. Also you missed Justin Hammer and Madame Masque, but again, you don’t read comics.
>Wonder Woman has a good gallery, the problem is NO ONE WANTS TO USE THEM.
At what point do you stop to think that the problem is the characters? I'm including Diana hersel in that. The character has been around for nearly a century and some of those characters date back to her early appearances. If so much time has passed and so many writers have tackled the character and nobody seems to be able to find good hooks for her or her characters in that entire time then it stands to reason that maybe there's a core issue. No amount of going "THEY'RE GOOD BUT NOBODY WANTS TO TRY" is going to change that. Nobody wants to try because what's there is bad and nobody wants to waste time and energy wondering how to make a shitty character like Eviless interesting.
Eviless was modernized as Saturna now.
I'm aware and she's still shit because she's basically Necrosha Selene if she looked like a 2000s Wildstorm character and may as well be a different character entirely.
Batman has three villains accurately described as "clowns who kill people."
>At what point do you stop to think that the problem is the characters?
When the ideas aren’t ripe for potential. Dr. Poison, Dr. Psycho, Dr. Cyber, Dr. Domino, Red Panzer, Baroness Gunther (especially the Brave and Bold version), and Minister Blizzard all have story potential and ways that they could be interesting opposition to Diana.
Ideally Wonder Woman is a powerful yet graceful Amazonian who believes in love and peace but is willing to fight for it. Each of those villains (except Domino, but he’s cool) has the potential to explore those themes and the cruelty of man instead of just “Evil God #6252”.
>When the ideas aren’t ripe for potential.
Brother if they were ripe somebody would have figured it out by now. They're not ripe, they're completely rotten. The only one that I'd say has any hope is Duke of Deception but that would require the themes or honesty and selflessness to be played up as the core of Wonder Woman and not the badass warrior goddess thing. As it is I think Wonder Woman is just completely screwed as a character. The best approach would be her as a younger character (like 18/19 range) new to man's world and persevering through an optimistic, empathetic, and honest nature.
But that would require completely rebooting the character which would mean another DC reboot. You can't do it with Donna because she's too experienced nor can you do it with Cassie as her character has been completely ruined. Yara's a big ball of nothing who nobody cares about. Diana is just a fundamentally flawed character because she largely existed to promote Marston's femdom beliefs (both sexual and social in nature).
I half wonder if the people here who so adamant about her and her villains do it for hipstery reasons. They know nobody is going to care enough to rework Dr. Domino so they get to jerk off about how much better they are than Batplebs or Spider-Cucks because only they recognize the "potential" that is totally there (and somehow a century of the entire rest of the comics industry hasn't been able to figure out).
Most writers haven't used them, period. It's nothing unique to WW either. Batman's villains, for all their hype, have a dearth of quality stories and far fewer appearances over the decades than one would assume. The real difference is that Batman has more secondary media that does the heavy lifting. His brand was built on the back of the Adam West tv show and BTAS.
>Brother if they were ripe somebody would have figured it out by now.
Easily the most naive comment in this entire thread. Writers moved too far from WW’s roots to the point where they pretend that section of her story didn’t happen. Potential can be sitting there if no one even looks at it.
Bitch, look at Batman's rogues gallery
Most of it is trash and it was trash for a long time until after many years of use in comics and adaptations in different media, particulary cartoons in video games, they just *clicked*
I can and will continue to say "THEY'RE GOOD BUT NOBODY WANTS TO TRY" because it's fricking true
Get back to me after people who clearly do not care about Wondy stop inventing new OCs every minute and her rogue gallery gets used in comics and adaptations
Then what are your grand ideas for these characters? What makes them actually interesting? Wondergays always screech about POTENTIAL and then never actually expand on it.
Hal’s is kinda shitty.
Sinestro and Hammond do the heavy lifting. Everybody else are other ring bearers (which is boring), characters that haven’t been used in decades, and event/crossover villains from years earlier Johns thought would make the GL book bigger/more exciting.
And then Kyle has what, Major Force and Nero? Kinda sucks too.
>Hal’s is kinda shitty. Sinestro and Hammond do the heavy lifting. Everybody else are other ring bearers (which is boring), characters that haven’t been used in decades, and event/crossover villains from years earlier Johns thought would make the GL book bigger/more exciting.
What? Green Lantern's antagonists are great.
A big part of that is Johns giving guys like Black Mask a ring and ignoring their prior thing, but even before that things weren't great for GL villains.
Tattoo Man was his thing but the CW stole him for Black Lightning and made him basically an OC, though.
Why the frick does every Nightwing always have that image for the OP
DSL
Does he not count as a recurring villain?
Taken by Batman.
Not lately.
Batman and Green Arrow tried to steal him but he's still Dick's biggest villain.
Who he fights and whether he can really be considered a villain change way too much for him to be considered a part of Dick's lineup.
Man Dick got fricked hard by Dixon making his post titans status quo the most boring Daredevil lite shit. He really should've gotten to be like a globetrotting superhero
He would really struggle with keeping villains then though.
He doesn't need to keep villains, he just needs good villains in general. In fact having so many recurring villains all the time, like practically all of them being recurring, is kind of a problem in DC especially when you want to tell more serious stories.
>He really should've gotten to be like a globetrotting superhero
I really liked when he was a Spyral agent.
Not like Titans-era Nightwing had anything better. Deathstroke was the only cool one. But yeah, Dixon fricked up.
I liked Brother Blood turning Dick into his sleeper agent. It's a shame everyone from Johns on fricked up the Church of Blood so badly. Trigon worshipers? Seriously?
Brother Blood started as a Cyborg villain, then got shifted to Raven in the comics.
The Titans first investigate the Church of Blood because Cyborg's friend was killed by the cult, but calling him a Cyborg villain is a stretch. None of that changes Dick being pulled out by the cult specifically in the original arc, and the brainwashing being revealed in that post-crisis return of brother blood arc.
Wolverine, but for some reason Cinemaphile never complains about that.
All of Wolverine’s most iconic enemies were either recycled or stolen from other heroes, most often Daredevil
In fairness, Sabretooth was created to be a Wolverine foe who they decided to build up elsewhere by having him face Iron Fist first.
Then the plan got dropped for years when readers guessed he was going to be Logan's dad.
Because people like seeing Wolverine killing dudes. That and seeing him fight Sabretooth.
Sabertooth is cool, Lady Deathstrike and Silver Samurai are alright as well. Mr. X was cool as well even though he's criminally underused.
The only solo DC characters with a better rogues gallery than Nightwing
>Batman
>Superman
>Flash
>Green Lantern
>Wonder Woman
All of them have been solo heroes since the 1940s and Nightwing just became a solo hero in the mid 90s. I don't think Nightwing's rogue gallery is that good but it is Green Arrow or Shazam tier. All this shows is that the vast majority of solo heroes have awful rogues galleries as Wonder Woman is the 5th best in all of DC and even her's is pretty awful.
>Wonder Woman
see
Ares, Circe, and Cheetah's toxic yuri make Diana's rogue gallery automatically better than Dick's.
>Superman
Is really great, read superman adventures by mark millar.
Half of those are the same generic brawlers with no distinct personality. The other half keeps on getting rebooted every often.
What is Cyborg Superman doing here, his best moments are with Green Lantern.
>What is Cyborg Superman doing here
He's a Superman villain, he always comes back to fight Supes.
He gets more milage with Green Lantern than he does Superman. There's an actual personal connection between Hank and Hal that runs deeper than Hank and Clark.
Okay.
He's still a Superman villain.
Hal hates Hank for the destruction of Coast City, but Hank doesn't personally care about Hal.
Hank on the other hand, personally does hate Superman for what happened to him and his crew, but Clark doesn't hate him.
There's a personal connection either way, Cyborg Supes is both a Superman and GL villain at this point.
>made people think he's primarily a Green Lantern villain
>managed to successfully rebrand him from 'The Cyborg' to 'Cyborg Superman' with people accepting it immediately
>changed his motivation to trying to get himself killed
Johns really did a number on Henshaw and made people like it, didn't he?
Shazam has good rogues, pleb
I feel like Sivana would be way more popular if he didn't have to exist in DC's "realistic" world.
>DC
>realistic
Do you even read comics?
I put it in quotation marks for a reason.
Then you'd still be wrong.
Who are Dick's top 5 recurring villains, then? What about the 5 worst?
To be recurring they must have been used in at least two story arcs. For example, when ranking the shittiest villains, Nite-Wing would count, but Saiko would not.
Professor Pyg, Two-Face, Lady Vic? Prankster, mebbe Shrike? Outside of "Teh Hive"
>Prankster
Isn't he Superman’s?
He is.
Yeah, but the New 52 tried to do something different for some reason, and they haven't brought back the based Pre-Flashpoint version except for a Christmas special.
actually he showed up in a Flash issue where he teamed up with the Trickster, I think he has had other appearances over the years tol
>actually he showed up in a Flash issue where he teamed up with the Trickster
And Riddler and Cluemaster, right? Yeah, I seem to remember something like that.
What about Raptor?
>Two-Face
Dick isn't even Harvey's favorite Robin, it's Jason because he's Robin #2.
>Two-Face
found Chuck Dixon
Except some writers after them used the Dick/Harvey rivalry too, like Tomasi and Daniel.
Anyway Dick's relationship with Harvey (and Talia) is funny because Dick doesn't give them leeway like Bruce does and accurately calls them out for how shitty they are.
What abou uhhh Double Dare?
Two hot gymnasts who constantly grapple the male lead? Pretty ingenious really.
They look too dumb to be hot. Mcdaniels’ can’t draw hot women either.
Looking dumb makes them hotter actually.
Aquaman/Wonder Woman had good rogue villain galleries BUT writers don't know how to use them.
Aquaman writers seem to mostly only care for Black Manta and Ocean Master.
I love kimera, scanvanger and deadwater from new52 runs
Who's the guy that looks like Reed on the bottom Right?
nobody remembers my boy krona from green lantern, also green lantern has good villains, it is true that rainbow corps took the stage, but johns, tomasi and others tried to use rest of villains when their dc runs and new52 runs were ending.
Morrison used blackstars, I loved that miniseries.
https://screenrant.com/nightwing-deadliest-dc-comic-villains-ranked/
https://www.cbr.com/strongest-nightwing-villains/
https://www.cbr.com/strongest-nightwing-villains/
>Only Villains that Dick Grayson has fought as Nightwing ( NOT ROBIN OR BATMAN )
List items
Deathstroke
Archenemy
Blockbuster
Archenemy
Deathwing
Messed up version of Nightwing
Black Mask
Fought sometimes
Penguin
Fought sometimes
Joker
Fought sometimes
Lady Vic
Nite-Wing
F-up version of Nightwing
Court of Owls
William Cobb
Evil grandfather of Dick Grayson; Talon of the Court of the Owls
The Talons
Prankster
Anthony Zucco
Jason Todd
Fought him in the pre-new 52 era
Brutale
Double Dare
Aliki Marceau
Member of Double Dare
Margot Marceau
Member of Double Dare
Tarantula
Raped Dick Grayson in a story
Lady Shiva
Shrike
Torque
The Circus of Strange
Professor Pyg
Fought him as both Batman and as Nightwing in the comics
Mr. Zsasz
Fought him in the New 52
Talia al Ghul
Raptor
Owlman
Vigilante
This list is bad and you should feel awful for citing youtube and listicles instead of reading the comics.
Not him, but how about this list?
>Deathstroke
>Blockbuster
>Deathwing
>Lady Vic
>Nite-Wing
>Court of Owls
>The Talons
>William Cobb
>Brutale
>Tony Zucco
>Double Dare
>Tarantula
>Torque
>Shrike
>Raptor
>Heartless
I'm open for criticism.
>Shrike
Shit
>Torque
Shittier
>Nite-Wing
Shittiest
>Deathwing
Wolfman's Team Titans character or Seeley's Professor Pyg dollotron?
>Court of Owls, The Talons, William Cobb
Isn't this all the same thing?
Most of these don't deserve to sit on any kind of best-of list.
>Wolfman's Team Titans character or Seeley's Professor Pyg dollotron?
Just Deathwing in general.
>Isn't this all the same thing?
Yes, but I mentioned them separately.
It also isn't meant to be a best of list, just a list of Nightwing villains.
Dick never fought the original Deathwing, that only started during the Trigon Seed arc, after Dick went back to the Bat-books.
The more recent Deathwing was just a Pyg dollotron in a Nightwing costume, and he died just a few issues after his introduction.
Neither really count as Nightwing villains, do they?
Fair enough.
Now remove all the villains that "belong" to other heroes, no one fricking considers Joker or Penguin as Nightwing villains, those are Batman villains that Dick has fought due to his obvious association with Batman.
I'm willing to compromise with the Court of Owls and say they're both Batman and Nightwing villains tho, mainly because of Dick's family connection to them.
Dick is defined almost entirely by his relationship with other superheroes, to the point where his only notable stories tend to be crossovers. Hell, his most defining feature is that he's pretty much the most well-connected DC superhero as well as being a capable leader, neither of which are particularly useful for proper solo stories.
Which ones are Lois Lane, Catwoman, Batgirl or Supergirl villains?
He has a rogues gallery.
See here for yourself:
%3D%3D
who's the dude in the thumbnail
The problem is that a lot of Dick's recurring villains suck.
The modern Nightwing book has an overreliance on the shitty mercs Dixon and McDaniel created. The only threatening one was Lady Vic and she gets the least use.
His most recurring villain is Blockbuster, but at best he's a shitty Kingpin ripoff.
His best recurring villain is Deathstroke, but DC keeps pushing him to Batman and Green Arrow instead.
His recurring villains from earlier eras (The Clock, Gargoyle, Crazy Quilt) are either forgotten or used as jokes.
Morrison, Snyder, and Seeley created some great villains in Professor Pyg, Tiger Shark, the Court of Owls, Mr. Minos, and Raptor, but no one wants to use them.
>Crazy Quilt
This is like the second time I hear that he was ever considered a Dick villain, where does this Dick vs. Crazy Quilt thing come from?
Crazy Quilt (like The Clock) fought Dick in his Star Spangled Comics solo run.
He disappeared in the silver age but came back in the bronze age. He doesn't show up often, but visually he's the most interesting of Dick's golden age villains so people like him.
He wasn't even originally a Robin villain. The Batman books stole him from the Boy Commandos.
Dark Crisis really should've beefed up Gargoyle/Antithesis and used him instead of GEB. At least then it would've made sense for Dick to be the center of it. For GEB the JSA would've made more sense as the center.
>GEB
what
Great Evil Beast, another name for The Great Darkness.
huh, first time i hear about it
also the darkness empowered slade, that was the connection to dick
Yeah and that's a weak connection and could've been done with Gargoyle/Antithesis. Like I said the JSA has more connnection to GEB because they have 4 characters directly connected to him, Obsidian, Shade, Ian Karkull and Hawkman's Shadow Thief.
>Yeah and that's a weak connection and could've been done with Gargoyle/Antithesis.
Deathstroke is literally Dick's archenemy, and people actually know him, no one fricking knows of Gargoyle or Antithesis, and there really isn't enough of a personal connection to Dick with either of them, that's why Slade was the main bad guy for Dick to fight.
NTA but I don't think he's saying get rid of Deathstroke. I also don't think you know who Gargoyle and the Antithesis are if you think they don't have a personal connection to Dick.
Antithesis is the eldritch horror from the Teen Titans origin comic. He'd breached into the DCU's reality through technology in the JLA HQ and was corrupting the league. The Titans stop his crossing into their reality through sheer luck and he vows revenge.
Gargoyle is one of the other early Titans villains, Mister Twister, who gets shunted off into a limbo dimension where he was trapped for years. He becomes an agent of the Antithesis. He has a massive hatred for Dick Grayson. Unlike most villains it's not about killing him, it's about breaking his spirit and his will to live, making him give in to despair. Some of the best Dick Grayson comics are Gargoyle's attacks on him.
An attack on the DCU through Deatstroke would make perfect sense for the characters, and it'd have been way more personal than the great darkness stuff.
>Deathstroke is literally Dick's archenemy
>is
No, he isn't. Deathstroke hardly even acknowledge Nightwing or see him as his archenemy in his own books.
Because DC/Didio doesn't want them to. Higgins wanted to write a crossover between the two books when he was writing both but DC kicked him off Deathstroke (replacing him with Liefeld) and kept forcing Batman crossovers onto his Nightwing book.
>Because DC doesn't want
Yeah, no. Nightwing is getting shilled so hard right now. What happens is that deathstroke become bigger than Nightwing and more relevant with him appearing more in media these days.
Higgins had Nightwing and Deathstroke in the New 52. It's rumored that editorial refused to greenlight the crossover he wanted because Didio's anti-Titans mandates.
They don't have a reason to hate each other anymore. Bludhaven got retconned back to life. Adeline got retconned back to life. Jericho got retconned back to life. Ravager got retconned into liking her dad again. Dick hasn't hung out with Joey or Rose since pre-flashpoint.
They should have done a one-shot to explain why they actually hate each other during Dark Crisis. DC is run by hacks, so instead they published a comic that didn't make any sense.
You could tell that Dark Crisis went through several changes because right at the end they suddenly pushed Dick as front and center of the event.
Dick was front and center from issue one of the event. The frick-up was in the pre-event books. Infinite Frontier, Deathstroke Inc., and Shadow War had nothing to do with the event in the end.
It's funny how some of his fans act like DC is against Nightwing when he for years is consistently given books and was given the ultimate push under Didio when he became Batman.
Jason should have been Nightwing villain
Agreed. Jason got so fricking lame after New 52.
I agree.
Stop talking to yourself.
Most characters don't have a good rouge gallery. Actually, Batman is the only that has a good rouge gallery.
>Actually, Batman is the only that has a good rouge gallery.
Does he? He has Joker, but I never see anyone hyping up Riddler or Two-Face.
They're right, villain Red Hood was way more interesting than anti-hero Red Hood. Now he's just the Nightwing you wouldn't take home to mom.
>They
Sure, buddy.
And no, (YOU) aren't right. DC tried to make him a villain multiple times and failed every single time. Never mind the fact that he can't even work as Nightwing's villain because his issue and personal connection is with Batman only.
Most of his villains are still relevant and more popular than most cape heroes.
>Most of his villains are still relevant and more popular than most cape heroes.
Lmao you mean VILLIAN and that's just Joker. Nobody is clamoring for Penguin, Riddler and Two-Face.
Yeah, it's not like Penguin has his own book right now, Riddles was the villain of the latest Batman movie and Two-Face always played a big role in almost every Bat media.
>t's not like Penguin has his own book right now,
Everything Batman gets a book, nobody thinks he's the shit.
>Riddles was the villain of the latest Batman movie
Riddler in name only. When I think of Riddler, I don't think of a Zodiac knockoff.
>and Two-Face always played a big role in almost every Bat media.
Yeah, I remember how everyone forgot about him in TDK because Joker was the actual draw.
I honestly can counter every single one of your points, but I'm frankly not in mood and you seem to only want to argue for the sake of arguing. So, believe whatever you want.
I accept your concession.
But that’s only because of casual exposure?
>No, it's not multiple people who disagree with me, it's sameposting.
moron.
And there is no right or wrong, it's an opinion.
doublemoron.
>And no, (YOU) aren't right. DC tried to make him a villain multiple times and failed every single time.
the most interesting thing about Cinemaphile is the least popular characters like red hood, batgirls,gwen pool always have the loudest fans.
Most of Batman’s rogues are only good for one first appearance
Spider-Man has a great rouges gallery
GG and Doc Ock, who else?
Kraven, Shocker, Electro, Sandman, Vulture, Rhino, Kingpin
idk I feel like people only say he has a good one because his rogues are actually used in multimedia adaptations.
His actually are more like Wonder Woman and Justice League where yeah he technically HAS villains, tons of them, but most of them aren't actually good characters or villains.
Norman, Doc Ock, and Venom basically hold his rogue gallery afloat.
Spider-Man has good rogues because they're fairly flexible and allow for all kinds of different stories and the same character can be used in multiple ways, from goofier to more serious stuff, and unless the writing is extremely piss poor (like the current run) it never really feels too inconsistent. And most of them, even the D-listers, are usually still pretty interesting as characters and personalities. So many of them get used in outside media precisely because so many of them are good that there's a lot for someone to choose from, especially if they just want to do a one off story. Chance is obscure but you could put him in a show or movie and he'd work just fine because his gimmick/character is solid.
>Actually, Batman is the only that has a good rouge gallery
Flash, Fantastic Four, X-Men, Hulk and Thor all have good rogues galleries
>Thor
Nah
>Hulk
Hulk has one of the worst. His arch enemies are Leader, Absorbing Man and Abomination and they all suck. His next notable villain is, who, fricking Tyrannus?
Sounds moronic. Jason isn't a Nightwing's character and the only thing that connect them is Bruce.
It was the Bruce connection that made him a Nightwing villain. At least, that's how they did it in Brothers in Blood, Battle for the Cowl, and Revenge of the Red Hood.
>Brothers in Blood, BOTC
Dick was more of a villian in this stories. For a hero who supposed to be against killing, it was ironic how he wished death upon Jason.
You know, this actually got me thinking, Nightwing had a bad showing in all these stories. Red Hood actually bested him in the Batman's run. So, why would Nightwing fans want Red Hood as his villain again?
Because Morrison made Jason the literal ugly redheaded stepchild.
>Brothers in Blood, Battle for the Cowl, and Revenge of the Red Hood.
And that's not three good reasons as to why this is idea is dead on arrival?
Under the Red Hood and Revenge of the Red Hood are the only two good Jason Todd stories since he was resurrected. The character itself was dead on arrival.
UtRH is meh-ish and the movie and the AK game did that storyline much better since. It also has nothing do with this chain of comment.
>Revenge of the Red Hood
It's so shit DC didn't even include it in the RH's anthology.
>The character itself was dead on arrival.
Then don't use him, you moronic Dickgay. He's easy to ignore.
Wasn't very easy to ignore when DC kept insisting on giving Jason Dick's sloppy seconds in the form of Roy and Kory in RHATO and Babs in Batman Eternal
> meanwhile 10 + years ago
> these characters Dick weren't using and arent' allowed to exist when they're not sucking Dick's wiener according to DIckgays
Big fricking deal.
Pre-Flashpoint...
Dick, Roy, and Kory were all on the Titans together when Didio decided to blow it up for Batman RIP and Gay for Justice.
DickBats and Starfire briefly joined up on Robinson's JLA, but DC editorial had them change the lineup every couple of issues. Arsenal joined Deathstroke's Titans: Villains for Hire team with Cheshire.
Going into the New 52 Arsenal finished his villain redemption arc with the help of DickBats and Starfire was off in space with the R.E.B.E.L.S.
Then post-Flashpoint Roy and Starfire were playing backup to the Red Hood and neither of them had even heard of the Teen Titans.
Dick in early new 52 was just Didio attempting to make good on his dream from the mid 00s. He wanted to kill Dick and split his stuff between Tim and Jason. Jason would be Nightwing and on Outsiders, which had Roy and Kory on it prior to IC, and Tim would get the Titans franchise. Come new 52, and Dick is a friendless loser because Jason was on a team with Roy and Kory and Tim's Titans were the first Titans team.
Didio never gave a shit about Tim or Jason. His entire issue is that he has a very specific idea of what Robin should entail and didn't want anything else. He wanted to kill off Dick not because he didn't like Dick, but because he didn't see a point to the character if he wasn't Robin. Tim got everything unique to him systematically cut out to fit the Didio ideal of Robin. Jason outside of Winick, Jason spent the entire period prior to Nu52 treated as a rather pathetic psychopathic villain. It wasn't some nefarious plan on Didio's part, just a guy with editorial control and shitty takes.
Also, Jason haven't interacted with Starfire since n52 and yet they are triggered to this day.
Their problem isn't with Jason hanging out with Dick's "friends", what triggers them is Jason's mere existence because they feel threatened by him.
>and Babs in Batman Eternal
Ironic, because the one whose responsible for this was Seeley who is a big Dick fanboy
>the movie and the AK game did that storyline much better since.
Not really. The movie was mainly favored by Batman fans as it centered more on him, but it unfortunately trimmed down many of Jason’s standout moments. Also, the game sucked.
>The movie was mainly favored by Batman
The movie is absolutely winnick backpedaling and doing damage control. It's only better because it keeps the best thing utrhd had, the villains bantering, and cut off the worst part; everything that ties in with others shit comic and events.
>the game sucked
Okay, sir miss the point. It's still the better utrh.
>living in the past
Starfire is back being a power house doormat for the Titans, Roy is doing whatever, and Babs is following Dick like his shadow. But keep whining about a soft reboot that didn't work out and been long since undone for the most part.
Living in the past? I was correcting some wiki-reader about where the characters were in the years leading up to the New 52. Because that's literally what the conversation was about.
>I was correcting
You were correcting shit because you can't follow a chain of comments. The "conversation" was about Jason getting Dick's sloppy seconds in n52 according to a Dickgay.
What's the point when as a Bat character, Dick has access to the best Rogues gallery in comics? There's maybe 1 great villain made every 5 years, if that. The bat rogues gallery took 40 years to cultivate to a decent state and even then you see upstarts like Bane eclipse older ones like Mad Hatter. yeah Bruce takes some of "his" villains like Deathstroke or Pyg, but it's not like Dick can't still fight them.
>but Dick should be a globetrotting /space farring hero
lol you people just want him doomed to dark corners of DC for the sake of "he's out of Batman's shadow!"
New Teen Titans post-Perez is one of the worst things to happen to Dick.
Yes, Iron Man's rogues gallery fricking sucks
>The Mandarin (now taken by Shang Chi)
>Crimson Dynamo (pick one)
>Iron Monger
>Melter
>Titanium Man
>The Unicorn
>Controller
>Blizzard
>Whiplash
>Technovore
>The Ghost
Blizzard and Ghost are the best of them and neither are really villains anymore.
And almost all of them go underused because, thanks to "Demon in a Bottle", Marvel thinks Iron Man's only true enemy should be himself.
That and other corporate rivals. Plus Armor Wars did firmly establish that Tony is a well meaning frick up.
>be MCU
>make Whiplash be played by an iconic actor
>give him a great design
>has the best ENTER scene in the franchise
>does barely anything after
>turns into the Dynamo in the climax and becomes way lamer
Both of these are good
Iron Man suffers from writters wanting to make Tony morally Grey or bad instead of a hero, so they make the comics about mostly facing himself, also every new armor just keeps powercreeping the frick out of this rogues, despite them being good.
Daredevil meanwhile has the Marvel issue where if the villian isn't a proper A lister then he will be treated as a joke.
Writters always wants to use Kingpin and Bullseye, and i dont blame them, i would say Matt and Kingpin rivals Doom and Reed as the best marvel rivalry, but that in turn makes his other villians get underused despite not being bad.
Also, while we are at it, people need to get the "Matt stole Kingpin from spider-man" stick out of their asses, Matt got a frickton of villians stolen for Wolverine, Jessica Jones, spider-man and other street heroes in general
>Iron Man suffers from writters wanting to make Tony morally Grey or bad instead of a hero, so they make the comics about mostly facing himself, also every new armor just keeps powercreeping the frick out of this rogues, despite them being good.
Its just as bad as writers not knowing how to write intelligent characters either. Tony is supposed to be smart but comes off as a smug dick.
>people need to get the "Matt stole Kingpin from spider-man" stick out of their asses
Consider that Spider-Man "stole" a number of villains like The Beetle, Boomerang, Speed Demon, Swarm and Jack O'Lantern and nobody cares at all, Daredevil using Kingpin shouldn't be much of a problem for anyone. But sometimes the bigger fandoms get oddly possessive like that, even when it's characters that clearly fit better elsewhere.
Iron Man's rogues gallery has some great Silver and Bronze Age supervillains, the problem is that most writers just don't use them, and most of the ones that do will use most of them as jobbers that aren't allowed to upgrade to keep pace with Tony's power creep.
Daredevil has the problem that most of his writers just don't want to use the type of costumed supervillains from the pre-Miller era except Bullseye, so most of those other older villains are unused or mistreated. Mr Fear is actually a great villain, but very underused. It doesn't help that there's at least one other jobber version of the character active at the same time as the one who's a real threat.
>Abomination and Red Hulk are shit
Do not turn Cinemaphile into a house of lies.
Has enough time passed that Cinemaphile now likes Red Hulk? Because Cinemaphile used to despise Red Hulk. The Loeb run was trash.
>The Loeb run was trash.
For people who are anti-fun, it sure was.
It also made a lot of powerlevelgays seethe as Red Hulk beat all their guys, which made it even funnier.
I bet you liked Ultimatum too.
>liking anything from Ultimate
If only Ultimatum had put it out of it's misery before things got even worse.
The early flagship Ultimate titles (Spider-Man, FF, X-Men, Ultimates) and Hickman's Ultimate stuff are miles better than Loeb's Red Hulk
You can argue that they're better written all you want, but Ultimate Spider-Man is just Benis retelling classic Spider-Man stories that were better the first time around, and the other books were Millar and Ellis wrecking characters from their introduction because they couldn't stop being moronic edgelords. Ultimate Marvel was a good idea but the execution was mistake after mistake after mistake.
Red Hulk might be a dumb book, but it's not revamping classic superheroes as cannibals or incestuous or anything as stupid as that.
As for Hickman, I genuinely don't understand why he still has such a fanbase here, but Ultimate should have ended already long before he showed up. Nothing of value was lost in Ultimatum.
This. Loeb’s run was horrible and Red Hulk sucks.
Hey Living Laser is a pretty neat villain!
Iron Man's problem is HALF HIS ROGUES ARE FRICKING DEAD
>Justin Hammer's dead
>Stane's dead
>Mandarin's dead
>Whiplash is dead
>Firebrand is dead
>Blizzard is dead
>Melter is dead
Daredevil's rogues gallery is downright pathetic. His arch enemy is Kingpin, a guy he stole from Spider-Man, and Fisk has history with practically every New York street hero. The Hand are boring without a head honcho, and Bullseye is overused. Then look at all the other shmucks
>Leapfrog
>Typhoid Mary
>Mister Fear
>Gladiator
Oh and who could forget the edgy knockoff of The Spot, "Coyote"?
On that note, Purple Man fricking sucks.
He's just not a fun or an interesting character no matter how hard Marvel tries to make him "le edgy rapist" and pretty much every Purple Man story is just
>"I was immune to you all along/o my willpower nen" followed by the effortless defeat
No wonder he got relegated to being an archenemy of some boring Bendis OC.
Hulk only has Leader and that's it basically. Abomination and Red Hulk are shit, the rest of his villains are one offs.
What runs should I read for stories about badass armroed villains?
>Everybody else dies, is never used again
have you considered that maybe Dick is just better at his job than Bruce? And also that Dick is busy dicking down everyone anyways? Who needs a rogue gallery when you have a hoe gallery
>Is there any established character with a long running solo that can rival Dick's shitty rogue gallery?
Honestly most of them. Wonder Woman and Iron Man especially. Maybe Green Arrow because what the frick even is his rogues gallery outside of Merlyn and Onomatopeia? Daredevil's is pretty bad too as his main villain is borrowed from Spider-Man and his second most notable one that's actually unique to him is Owl.
Green Arrow is relatively handicapped villain wise by the simple fact that modern writers didn't even try to give him a traditional rogue gallery until the 2001 relaunch.
His character/book trajectory went Batman ripoff in golden and silver age (ie shitty onenote villains) --> team/duo character in the bronze age (ie less chance to get more than 1-2 villains for yourself, but this is when he got Merlyn) --> totally-not-superhero-because-superheroes-are-for-children in the late 80s until his death in the mid 90s.
So all he really had up until 2001 was said shitty villains from the golden/silver age, Merlyn, Count Vertigo (who he technically took from Dinah), and Shado.
So he and Dick are actually fairly similar in this regard but Ollie just fared better. Dick technically had Blockbuster and Deathstroke from 70s/80s like how Ollie got Merlyn, Count Vertigo, and Shado except Ollie keep getting decent villains from 2001 onward like Brick and Onomatopoeia whereas Dick didn't get any decent ones from his 1996 book.
Green Arrow has a different problem. Green Arrow has less than a dozen villains from his books to adapt. Instead of creating villains for Ollie, his writers like to borrow villains and characters from other books. It's why Arrow fans think Ra's al Ghul and Bronze Tiger are Green Arrow villains.
People joke about Nightwing's rogues gallery being d-list jobbers, but that's because he has so many rouges. Chuck Dixon alone created over a dozen villains to fill up Bludhaven.Dick has villains:
>Deathstroke
>Blockbuster
>Lady Vic
>Brutale
>Shrike
>Double Dare
>Electrocutioner
>Gorilla Grimm
>Thrill Devil
>Stallion
>Trigger Twins
>Mouse and Giz
>Hella
>Torque
>Circus of the Strange
>Professor Pyg
>Tiger Shark
>Court of Owls (William Cobb)
>Raptor
>Spyral (Agent Zero, Mister Minos, Skullgirls)
Nightwing also has his league of evil ex girlfriends:
>Bat-Girl
>Duela
>Mirage
>Huntress
>Tarantula
>Sonia Zucco
>Defacer
>Captain Blüd
>implying people read Dick for the rogue gallery instead of his pussy-of-the-month harem.
>implying people read Dick for any reason besides hoping the issue has a mansevice artist on duty
Boringwing should be a villain. Maybe he would be interesting for once.
I like it when these threads are made because you get people legitimately acting like Batman's rogues aren't notable.
if they came up with a good nightwing rogue, he would just become a good batman rogue. it's like, you don't wear your expensive new shirt at the spaghetti marathon.
Did everyone forget that Blockbuster is a Batman villain?
I actually didn't know that. The fact that Nightwing's most notable villain was a Batman's villain is hilarious. He truly never going to escape Batman's shadow.
He's wrong. Mark Desmond, the original Blockbuster, was a Batman villain. Ostrander killed him in the 80s.
The whole deal with the original Blockbuster was that he liked Bruce Wayne but hated Batman, so Bruce would have to show up and calm him down. Roland, Mark's brother, was the mastermind behind Blockbuster. Robin took him down.
I'm not sure how this change the fact that Blockbuster was originally a Batman's villain. Ronald was created two decades after Mark and he also appeared first as a villain for Batman and Starman.
Both Mark and Roland Desmond were created in the same issue. His name is Roland, not Ronald.
My point was that calling Blockbuster a Batman villain as a way to take away from his status as a Nightwing villain is misleading.
Roland's first appearance ended with Robin one-punching him to take him to jail. Batman wasn't even in the room.
Mark was created in 65s. Roland in 89s and made his first appearance in Starman. Both of them were first a villain for Batman.
Roland Desmond debuted in Detective Comics 345, the same issue as Mark. It's right here. Along with Dick taking him down.
Maybe originally, but they've both been pretty much 100% transferred to Nightwing, it's not like Batman ever fights them anymore.
Tbf is an open secret that DC turns what they consider really good Nightwing pitchs into batman books
When this comes up I like to play the rogues gallery game just to see who people come up with and see who gets the least rogue names Name at least five rogues for each of these Marvel heroes, feel free to repeat rogues if they're significant for both of those heroes but they have to be significant:
>Captain America
>Iron Man
>Spider-Man
>Thor
>Incredible Hulk
>Hawkeye
>Captain Marvel
>Ant Man and the Wasp
>Black Panther
>Dr. Strange
>Fantastic Four
>X-Men
>Daredevil
>Black Widow
>Ms. Marvel
>Black Panther
Klaw, Killmonger, White Wolf, Man-Ape, Achebe
Top 20 villains for
Thor https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fi4xTk_cz7g&pp=ygUUVG9wIDIwIHZpbGxhaW5zIHRob3I%3D
Hawkeye https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t8e2ewa7BYs&t=2s&pp=ygUXVG9wIDIwIHZpbGxhaW5zIGhhd2tleWU%3D
Black Panther https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n0b7zklV-T0&t=151s&pp=ygUdVG9wIDIwIHZpbGxhaW5zIGJsYWNrIHBhbnRoZXI%3D
AnT-Man and Wasp https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xF_yUCGfekg&pp=ygUWVG9wIDIwIHZpbGxhaW5zIGFudG1hbg%3D%3D
Hulk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-XfbrDslpSM&pp=ygUUVG9wIDIwIHZpbGxhaW5zIGh1bGs%3D
Black widow https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FicybdLbWkk&pp=ygUbVG9wIDIwIHZpbGxhaW5zIGJsYWNrIHdpZG93
Captain Marvel https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iOFphQlVOLE&t=134s&pp=ygUeVG9wIDIwIHZpbGxhaW5zIGNhcHRhaW4gYW1ydmVs
Captain America https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5EjKKZ__Rbc&pp=ygUfVG9wIDIwIHZpbGxhaW5zIGNhcHRhaW4gYW1lcmljYQ%3D%3D
Iron man https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=anpLUs5g11k&t=15s&pp=ygUYVG9wIDIwIHZpbGxhaW5zIGlyb24gbWFu
Daredevil https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yiMA1efYvV0&t=206s&pp=ygUZVG9wIDIwIHZpbGxhaW5zIGRhcmVkZXZpbA%3D%3D
Dr Strange https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DReSBn9vSNI&pp=ygUaVG9wIDIwIHZpbGxhaW5zIGRyIGF0cmFuZ2U%3D
>Captain America
Red Skull, Dr. Faustus, Crossbones, Sin, Zemo, Arnim Zola, Baron von Strucker
>Iron Man
Jim Beam, Jack Daniels, Justin Hammer and his kin, Madam Masque, Crimson Dynamo, Morgan Stark, Arno Stark
>Spider-Man
Nick Lowe, Paul, Norman Osborn, Doc Ock, Electro, Sandman, Vulture, Kraven.
>Thor
Loki, Enchantress, Kurse, Malekith, Gorr the God Butcher
>Incredible Hulk
The US Army, Leader, Abomination, Zzzax, Banner
>Hawkeye
The Slavs aka Tracksuit Mafia
>Captain Marvel
Men that underestimate her, The Kree, The Brood, her "son"
>Ant Man and the Wasp
????
>Black Panther
Killmonger. Klaw, Niganda rebels, Achebe, White Wolf, Man-Ape
>Dr. Strange
Dread Dormmamu, Nightmare, Doctor Druid, Baron Mordo, Shuma-Gorath
>Fantastic Four
Doom, Namor, Annihilus
>X-Men
Flatscans
>Daredevil
The Hand, Kingpin
>Black Widow
The Red Room
>Ms. Marvel
A cyborg anthro Parrot
>>Ant Man and the Wasp
Ultron, Whirlwind, Egghead and Darren Cross seem to be the ones to survive the pass of time one way or another.
It's so sad how they peaked at robo-daddy-issues so early, since that's the only one I heard about always.
Four
add the super skrull and galactus
>Whirlwind
They killed him off not too long ago.
He'll likely be back to normal by the time Avengers Inc ends.
>Jim Beam
>Jack Daniels
jej
Ms Marvel has KaBoom, Lockdown, The Inventor, the Inventors’s siblings, Knox Lineage, Kamran, Doc.X, Hijinks, Monopoly, Stormranger, Discord, Deathbringer
She borrows Dr Faustus, Mr Hyde, Shocker, Dr Minerva
America
Red Skull, Zemo, Von Stroker, Madam Hydra, crossbones, Zola
>>Iron Man
Mandarin, whyplash, Crimson dynamo, madam mask, ghost, i could name more
-Man
Doc Ock, Goblin, Venom, Mysterio, Lizard, Sandman, i could name more
>>Thor
Gorr, Loki, Enchantress, destroyer, frost giants i guess
Hulk
Red Hulk/Ross, Xemu, abomination, uhhhhh
taskmaster, swordmaster i think and uhhhh
Marvel
both kree and skrull, so uhhhh
>>Ant Man and the Wasp
Ultron, whirlwind, egghead, and sadly i think thats it
Panther
Killermonger, Klaw, man-ape....uhhhh
>>Dr. Strange
Dormammu. Baron mordo, nightmare, uhhhh
Four
Doom, moleman, Kang, Namor, psychoman, high evolutionary, galactus
>>X-Men
Magneto, Apocalypse, Hellfire Gala, orchis, brotherhood og f mutants
Kingpin, bullseye, mr fear, thypod mary, purple man, the hand, gladiator
Widow
uhhhhh
>>Ms. Marvel
UHHHHHH
>Captain America:
Red Skull, Batroc the Leaper, Flagsmasher, Madame Hydra, Baron Zemo
>Iron Man:
The Mandarin, Ironmonger, Crimson Dynamo, Madame Masque, Ghost
>Spider-Man:
Green Goblin, Doc Ock, Rhino, Electro, Vulture
>Thor:
Loki, Enchantress, Hela, Gorr, Malekith
>Hulk:
Red Hulk, The Leader, Abomination, The Wrecking Crew, Titania
>Hawkeye:
UHHH. Crossfire? Taskmaster?
>Captain Marvel:
Moonstone, Uhh do Mystique and Rogue still count?
>Ant Man and The Wasp:
Darren Cross, MODOK, A.I.M, Egghead, Ultron
>Black Panther:
Man-Ape, Killmonger, Ulysses Klaue, Namor, Kraven the Hunter (though lets face it he's more known for Spidey)
>Dr. Strange
Dormammu, Kaluu, Nightmare, Baron Mordo, Morgan Le Fey
>Fantastic Four
Dr. Doom, Galactus, Super Skrull, Mole Man, Frightful Four
>X-Men
Magneto, Apocalypse, The Sentinels/Humanity, Mr. Sinister, Hellfire Club
>Daredevil
Kingpin, Bullseye, The Hand, Thats all I got
>Black Widow
Iron Maiden, thats all I got
>Ms. Marvel
No idea don't keep up with her
Ooo, fun game. Top of my head.
>Captain America
Red Skull, Baron Zemo I and II, Flag Smasher, Baron Blood, Dr. Faustus, Arjun Zola, Crossbones, Serpent Society, Zodiac (group), AIM, Modok, Batroc, Swordsman
>Iron Man
Mandarin, Justin Hammer, Obadiah Stane, Living Laser, Crimson Dynamo, Titanium Man, Whiplash, Blizzard, Ghost, Spymaster, Technovore, Unicorn, Midas, Count Nefaria, Madame Masque, Fin Fang Foom, Guardsman, Dollman, Melter
>Spider-Man
Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, Doc Ock, Electro, Kraven, Sandman, Scorpion, Rhino, Vermin, Lizard, Morbius, Kingpin, Venom, Carnage, Vulture, Mysterio, Merlin, Fusion, Tarantula, Lightmaster, Walrus, White Rabbit, Kangaroo, Cyclone, Speed Demon, Boomerang, Human Fly, Hydroman Gibbon, Shocker, Beetle, Molten Man, Tinkerer, Chameleon, Enforcers, Big Man, Crime Master, The Rose, The Answer, Spot, Tombstone, Silvermane, Mountain Man Marko, Living Brain, the Smythes/Slayers, Doppleganger, Tri-Sentinel, Circus of Crime, Big Wheel
>Thor
Loki, Surtur, Mangog, Ulik, Wrecking Crew, Absorbing Man, Kurse, Malekith, Hel, Midgard Serpent, Juggernaut, Ymir, Manbeast, Mongoose, Enchantress, Skurge
>Incredible Hulk
Abomination, Leader, Bi-Beast, Madman, Metal Master, Absorbing Man, Titania, Red King, Gargoyle, Ross
>Hawkeye
I’m stumped here, unless Avengers villains count.
>Captain Marvel
Thanos, Ego, Yon-Rogg, Ronan
>Ant Man and the Wasp
Egghead, Whirlwind, Darren Cross, Ultron
>Black Panther
Man Ape, Klaw, Killmonger
>Dr. Strange
Baron Mordo, Dormammu, Shuma Gorath, Nightmare, Dr. Doom
>Fantastic Four
Dr. Doom, Annihilus, Galactus, Abraxas, Moleman, Alchemist, Wizard, Puppet Master, Immortus/Kang, Skrulls, Blastaar
>X-Men
Magneto, Juggernaut, Mr. Sinister, Sentinels, Mystique, Toad, Sabertooth, Blob, Avalanche, Sauron, Mojo
>Daredevil
Kingpin, Bullseye, Typhoid Mary, Jester, Man-Bull, Gladiator, Mysterio, Electro, Owl, Purple Man, The Hand, Masked Marauder, Mr. Fear
>Black Widow
Stumped
>Ms. Marvel
Scorpion, Supreme Intelligence
Black WIdow has Red Guardian, Iron Maiden, Vindiktor, Snapdragon, Viper, and Yelena.
Iron Maiden, Mandrill, and others seen here:
>Captain America
Red Skull, Crossbones, Baron Zemo, Batroc the Leaper, the Serpent Society
>Iron Man
The Mandarin, Living Laser, Fin Fang Foom, Crimson Dynamo, Titanium Man
>Spider-Man
Mysterio, Doc Ock, the Green Goblin, Kraven the Hunter, Sandman
>Thor
Loki, Mangog, Gorr, Enchantress, Surtur
>Hulk
Xemnu, Thunderbolt Ross, The Leader, Abomination, Zzzax
>Dr. Strange
Dormammu, Baron Mordo, Shuma Gorath, Nightmare, D'Spayre
>Fantastic Four
Doctor Doom, The Super Skrull, Annihilus, Mole Man, Molecule Man
>Daredevil
Kingpin, Bullseye, Typhoid Mary, Stilt Man, The Owl
>Gorr
appeared in one story and was killed during it. bad top choice for a character thats been around for 70 years
True.
I any case, Thor also has
>Malekith
>Hela
>The Midgard Serpent
>Absorbing Man
>Minotaur
>Ulik
>The Wrecking Crew
>Yet Blockbuster is his only major recurring villain, and he's a shitty Kingpin knockoff. Everybody else dies, is never used again,
Thats's just how Chuck Dixon writes Tim had the same problem.
Chuck Dixon wrote his comics like he was on autopilot.
Tim had The General at least.
The General was great
Bro nightwing sucks.
The whole bat-family or whatever the frick it’s called sucks.
Every single one of them is just a diluted version of Batman.
He is literally one step above crypto the super dog in my mind for irrelevant bullshit characters.
They all live in Bruce’s shadow.
Any time any of these homosexuals show up in a Batman comic I cringe HARD.
Also his sticks are the gaygiest gimmick of all time.
How generous placing Dick above Krypto. I'd put him below Krypto because at least Krypto is a good boy. Dick is an butthole and a prostitute.
If you hate Dick, you don’t like Batman comics.
This quite arrogant to say. A lot of Batman's most popular stories have no Dick in them.
They give dick more importance than he actually has. You can literally get rid of him and nothing of value Batman has lost.
I can never take batman threads seriously because of this, this blue daredevil sure got quite the unfortunate naming
>Justice Society
>Justice League
>Titans
>X-Men
>Avengers
>Fantastic Four
How would you anons rank various team's rogue galleries?
You can add others like LOSH, GOTG, BOP, etc but those seem like the main teams at either publisher.
X Men > JSA = FF > JL > Avengers > TT
X-Men = Fantastic Four > JL >Avengers >>> Titans
Hawkman has a surprisingly bad ass rogues gallery.
Too bad no one ever uses them when they’re writing Hawkman.
Shadow Thief
Hath-Set
Count Viper
Purple Pilgrim
Hummingbird
Lion Mane
Fadeaway Man
Headhunter
Man-Hawks
Byth
Satana
Thought Terror
Sky Tyrant
Hyathis
Gentlemen Ghost
Kanjor Ro
Matter Master
I. Q.
Onimar Synn
Queen Shrike
Nyola
Chad
Monocle
Lasso the strangler
Reminder Hath Set took a female form and fricked Hawkman's son
I really like it the last vendetti run in rebirth, aslo death of hawkman with the atom in dcyou.
<---catwoman villains
I don’t think this was Bardin art, right?
But someone paying homage to his style?
it was some woman that made that a la david bardin style
there is also Hal Haney, he made a buch of these.
<----
Why is Walter West there?
He was never a Flash villain.
A handful of these were in Venditti's book, I particularly remember Hath-Set being the final guy they fought.
Also, I liked their Earth 3 counterparts.
I want to see Earth 3 Per Degaton to be quite honest.
Just Chad?
Should say Chac
Dick isn't the only guy who got a long running solo i the 90s who suffered getting villains.
Kyle has like Major Force and Nero who both suck, Conner has fricking nobody, and had Wally not inherited Barry's he'd have just Magneta (boring evil girlfriend/split personality trope), Cobalt Blue (nuff said), Cicada (nuff said), and Hunter (the only good one listed)
Major Force is supposed to be Captain Atom's villain anyway.
Captain Atom is too busy exploding to have villains anymore
>Major Force stolen by Kyle and the GLs
>he wifed up Plastique
Does Captain Atom even have any other villains?
the ones form new52 run?
Wally suffered a bit in that Waid wanted to focus more on the whole family and legacy thing with these big, long, epic stories. And yeah it was good for helping flesh out Wally and the Flash as a concept but it wasn't necessarily good as far as villains go. Loebs had set up this whole thing with Doyle Christie becoming the new Icicle and I assume was being set up to play the role of Wally's Catwoman (she wanted to be a hero with him but was kind of b***hy and self-important and wanted to skim loot from their endeavors). But that never went anywhere because Waid took over a few issues later and basically jettisoned everything from the previous runs. All of the regular supporting characters (the McGees, Chunk, Lady Flash, Connie Noleski, Mason Trollbridge, and the like) all virtually disappeared from Waid's run aside from small appearances.
>Magenta
Again, that's all on Waid. She was normal even after her and Wally broke up until Waid brought her back as being Wally's mentally ill ex so CUHRAZY is now her deault personality or where she'll eventually end up if she's ever used in anything.
Waid did a lot of good with the Flash but his treatment of basically every non-villain character that came before his run was definitely not it. I assume the only reasons Linda didn't get tossed out too were because she's Asian and Waid's a nerd and/or because she was a reporter and Waid's a Superman geek so she could be a surrogate Lois.
>she could be a surrogate Lois
Waid's one of those Superman autists that hates Lois though.
Huh?
All the people behind the Superman 2000 pitch don't just dislike the marriage, they don't like Lois in general. I think they just want Supes to be a pure and forever virgin.
Wasn’t Morrison one of them? But he had a good Lois showing in the Allstar limited series.
Lois is fine in All-Star but there's nothing particularly well-written about her since she's just basically supportive girlfriend. Morrison is probably the person out of all them from the pitch who likes Lois the most.
>the Superman 2000 pitch
Still one of the biggest misses in comics.
>Still one of the biggest misses in comics.
The concept was a miss or not using it was a miss?
Not using it was a miss.
I hate that pitch. Their Superman is a creepy inhuman freak.
That's the problem when you view Superman as a godlike figure. Now I'm reminded of Birthright when Clark can literally see the souls of living creatures just so Waid can autistically make Supes a vegetarian.
He doesn't hate her. He wrote her in Birthright as being this awesome toughminded girl who inspires awe in everyone around her and Kingdom Come's entire crux is that Lois dying makes everything shittier.
KC Lois is a posthumous plot device.
Nero is a great concept wasted by shitty writers. A violent schizophrenic given the power to externalize the hallucinations and delusions that torment him into tangible reality.
>his personality being tOTaLlY cUH-rAzZZYY
>uses a ring
>an artist
he's shit from inception. Winick wanted a mirror villain for Kyle but he's is a bad writer so all he could come up with was an artist with a ring but is crazy
>Dick has been going solo since 1995 and still has ZERO good antagonists
What the frick is wrong with DC
For a guy with no bad runs Marc sure doesn't have any good villains.
I’m actually reading the Epic Collections and he actually does, not sure where you’re getting that. I already like Bushman, Midnight Man, Crossfire, Morpheus, and even Crowley’s son.
It's easier to just ask the question what characters actually have good rogue galleries. I can only think of a handful
All of the Wildstorm teams and heroes have shitty rogues galleries outside of Hellspont and Pike.
totally agree.
To be honest, Helspont from Wildstorm, Crypt and Giger from Extreme and Misery from Cyberforce were the only early Image villains that were particularly memorable outside of Spawn's rogues gallery.
>No one has mentioned Firestorm yet
He had 7 of his rogues in the Suicide Squad, and the only good one got transferred to Superman
And Killer Frost ended up being used more than him.
Many such cases.
>Grundy being used more than Alan
>Mystique and Rogue more than Carol
>Deathstroke more than Dick
>Deathstroke more than Dick
No.
Hate to break it to you Dickgay but Deathstroke is more popular among casuals
He even got a little cartoon/movie before Dick did lol
He's still not used more than Dick.
>He even got a little cartoon/movie before Dick did lol
That mystery meat artist behind those shitty Beast Boy VA novels is getting a cartoon before Dick.
I understand, that Beast Boy ogn has probably sold more than any Dick trade, except maybe Black Mirror.
You'd be wrong:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/193766/
Shit, this was meant for
Killer Frost is an easy ice villain to use I guess.
Tokamak, Brimstone, Hyena, Slipknot, Mindboggler, The new Thinker, Silver Deer, Black Bison, Plastique, Typhoon, Goldenrod, Sand Demon, Deathstorm, all the Killer Frosts, Multiplex, Weasel, and Naiad.
Pretty powerful
Firestorm villains are Suicide Squad and Event fodder, Firestorm never gets any actual books or stories so they all just do whatever around the DCU.
Even the Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur cartoon is building Lunella a decent and varied rogues gallery.
Nightwing has a rogues' gallery?
Yeah but they keep getting stolen, killed, turned into massive jobbers, or never used again
>James Jr
Taken by Babs
>Deathstroke
Taken by Bruce
>Pyg/Circus of Strange
Taken by Bruce
>Shrike
Turned into a jobber in the mid 00s. Killed in latest Suicide Squad book
>double dare
Jobbed in Williamson’s Robin
>Lady Vic
Turned jobber in late 00s, Williamson had her job in Robin
>Raptor
Jobbed in Williamson’s Robin
>turned into heroes/antiheroes
Stallion, Mouse, and Giz
>at least a dozen villains used under 1 writer and forgotten by the next
Sylph, Hella, Saiko, Prankster, Electrocutioner, Thrill Devil, etc
Dick kinda successfully stole Court of Owls/William Cobb from Bruce but they were meant to be his in the first place
>Jobbed in Williamson’s Robin
unironically why does that matter? characters job all the fricking time
Have you read the arc because Williamson deadass filled 80% of the tournament up with Nightwing villains and then had them all job lmao
He couldn’t spread the jobbing across to any Batman or Green Arrow villains? I think tigress was the only notable non Nightwing villain/new character
Yes, I did, but they were all in the background, the only characters that mattered in that story were Connor, Rose, or original to the story.
And I ask again, why does it fricking matter whose villains jobbed? He probably just used Nightwing villains because of Dick's connection to Damian.
They lose credibility and can dip into meme status if a lazy writer doesn't course correct.
Maybe I just didn't overthink it enough, but I just thought it was a neat detail that most background fighters were Nightwing villains, you know, probably referencing Dick and Damian's relationship.
That's okay Anon, it is a nice detail but when characters job and don't show up often it can do long term damage.
Nightwing villains generally don't show up a lot but I don't think the Robin series did any damage to them, they mainly stuck to the background, and honestly just being part of the tournament proved that they're all relatively skilled fighters.
Williamson took what was left of Nightwing's rogues gallery and pissed and shitted all over them.
And the fact that Williamson picked this goofy frick for a tournament with the supposed best fighters in the world is the massive red flag that he put no thought into the book and the characters he was using.
Not just Nite-Wing, btw.
What do a British noble turned mercenary, a Gitans anti-capitalist assassin, twin French acrobat/cat-burglars, a south-american assassin/torture expert, and a braindead vigilante from inner-city Bludhaven all have in common?
None of them would ever show up in an exclusive martial arts tournament for the best fighters in the world.
Idk Lady Vic and Raptor I can believe but yes all the others can frick off
They were in the fricking background anon, you guys are way overthinking this, they weren't actually part of the story.
>None of them would ever show up in an exclusive martial arts tournament for the best fighters in the world.
Shiva and Cass weren't even there, it's obvious the entry bar to the tournament was relatively low.
>it's obvious the entry bar to the tournament was relatively low.
I'd believe that Williamson didn't start the book with his OCs beating, tricking, and bribing the fighters you'd actually expect to be in a top martial artists tournament, then follow it up with Ravager and Hawke giving verbal handjobs to them about how strong and powerful they are.
Nah, writers need to jack off villains in order for them to not get memed into being jobbers/losers. Like had Johns not jacked off Cold and the rest of the main Rogues so hard, the "those guys are too underpowered for Flash" opinion would be a more much prevalent among comic readers, as it's extremely common among casuals due to them mostly knowing Eobard memes.
The only character who really needs jacking off is Lady Vic. If you're ranking his rogues by how cool but undeveloped they are, she's at the top.
Yeah giganta’s pretty harmed as a character since the only decent portrayal outside Wonder Woman comics in the last two decades was being Ryan Choi’s girlfriend… and that’s a c list book. Every other time she shows up in other comics or event comics she’s just something big for a character to punch.
I've always thought characters can be shared in Rogues' galleries, but no way in hell Deathstroke has been taken by Bruce lmao
They tried making him an Ollie villain mid and late 00s but after new 52 and the Arkham games DC absolutely tried to force a rivalry between Slade and Bruce in Prieststroke in Shadow War. Didio also tried keeping Slade and Dick apart (Higgins being denied a crossover despite writing both books, getting kicked off DS after 8 issues while NW was bombarded with Batman crossovers). And once he got canned DC started to reference it again in TTA and Dark Crisis even though their rivalry doesn’t make sense anymore.
James Jr. didn't make sense as Dick's villain in the first place. Why the frick would you make a villain the sibling of a hero then have them fight a different hero?
Dick fricks his sister, come on, he makes the most sense, James Jr. can fight them both.
Now that Babs is a supporting character in Nightwing, this would be the best time to bring back James Jr. as a villain for both.
Hopefully even follow up his return from the Joker book.
Snyder added more of Dick and Babs being childhood friends, so James Jr was just fixated on one of his sister’s friends and gay boys fixated on a sister’s boyfriend isn’t new
He also specifically made him Dick’s foil which is why he’s boring with Babs
In what book? I'm curious about James Jr.
Black Mirror
Mostly just implied or stated stuff, no actual flashbacks but Snyder continued the retcon of Dick and Babs being childhood friends, saying they went to prom together
Black Mirror was great, and James Jr had potential of being a great villain. It’s a shame new 52 Batgirl and Suicide Squad fricking ruined him.
>.t didn't read the Scott Batgirl issue with him
You guys are saying shit like Wonder Woman or Aquaman but at least their arches are memorable.
Do Cyborg and Manhunter even have any villains of note?
Do you mean Manhunter or Martian Manhunter?
martian manhunter
Here's your Martian Manhunter villains bro
>Malefic
>Human Flame
>Doctor Trap
>Arnold Hugo
>B'rett
>Getaway King
>Bette Noir
>Charnn
>D'kay D'razz
>Headmaster
>Mister V.
>Rio Ferdinand
>Benn Blanx
>Bel Juz
>Crime Conjuror
>The Falcon
>Tybalt Bak'sar
>Giggs
>Stregga
>Korge
>Cyborg
Variant, Grid, H8-Bit, Atlas, Shrapnel, Gizmo
Since when is Gizmo a Cyborg villain?
Since his last comic
He's a Titans villain, Cyborg just has that connection.
>h8-bit
isn't that a fricking venture bros character
He was a one-off villain from Cyborg's Rebirth series. Literally a one-off, he was created and killed in the same issue. Anon is scrambling because Cyborg doesn't have villains. And he's only picking modern and cartoon characters, so he's a newbie.
Cyborg's real villains:
Ron Evers
Technis
Grid
That's it. Literally the only three who made a big enough deal to matter.
I'm pretty sure Grid is the only real one since Ron hasn't appeared since the 2000s and Technis hasn't since the 90's.
The Atom has a lackluster gallery.
And Swamp Thing stole one of them.
The frick you mean? These all look like kino.
looks corny, but I don't know any single of them, but good cheesy designs
I forgot how good Simone’s Atom book was.
Reading this thread shows that people give zero shits about anyone's rogue gallery until they appear or are mentioned in a movie/tv show/videogame.
Reminder that Mr.Freeze was such a nobody Animal Man even used him as a 'forgotten character'.
Then BtAS made him one of his mainstays with one episode.
Hell, Riddler's popularity was also majorly boosted by the '66 show.
Freeze was also used as fodder for Joker to beat down pre-BTAS. He used to be how Killer Moth is now.
>Then BtAS made him one of his mainstays with one episode.
Which was also the last time people remembered Freeze.
People remember Freeze all the time lmao
To be fair, Freeze has fallen off a bit. The Nu52 did him dirty, then Rebirth went for a new origin instead of the Dini version, and Infinite Frontier piled on more of the frickery.
So he's still remembered?
What a sad hill to die on.
I'm sure you get off on being a contrarian.
Anon, lets get real for a minute; yes Freeze is a bad guy in Batman's lineup, but he's not on the level of Joker, or the level of Penguin, Riddler, or Two-Face, he's a C-list villain. Everything always goes back to MUH WIFE: a one-and-done villain.
If we're measuring by popularity then he's obviously not as big as the Joker, nobody in DC Comics is, but he's definitely around the level of those other guys even if he only gets to have one story. Being a one-and-done villain doesn't make him less popular than Two-Face who gets overshadowed by other villains all the time.
The only time Freeze ever gets brought up is to wash BTAS' handling of him in one episode. He's a one-and-done character.
Arkham City says hello
That's because Freeze was one of the lucky few who was reinvented and reworked to be cool, rather than how most writers go WOW LOOK AT THIS GOOBER! SAY HELLO TO MY NEW ARCH-ENEMY FOR THIS GUY THAT'LL TOTALLY CATCH ON!