ITT: Times where comics approaching hot button/topical issues, or utilized politics actually worked.
The ASM arc where Harry overdosed was actually an unironically good story, and despite its framework and some ham fisted lines, really characterized Harry and Norman in ways that really added even more to them. Norman snapping out of his Goblin persona seeing Harry in the hospital remains one of my favorite ASM villain moments. The story also really set the building blocks for future Harry stories.
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Nah, Harry out of the blue being a pill popper just to be topical was hamfisted government backed propaganda. STOP POLITICISING COMICS!!! t. 70s Cinemaphile
It actually sets up Harry and Norman’s characters, though. Harry’s mental instability and issues with obsession and even overdosing (ie taking too much Goblin formula over time and overdosing) become a running pattern, and this story really allows us to see Norman Osborn instead of the Goblin, which in a way makes him more tragic despite his decisions in life.
Duh. Stan had to fight publisher Martin Goodman and risk his job to send this out without the Comics Code. Not that Stan knew anything about recreational drugs, I've never even heard about him drinking. Comics have been polliticized from Day One, Read some 1930s Little Orphan Annie or Dick Tracy for more sermons than you get in church.
How would it be ironically good?
I never said ironically.
Maybe everyone should give ironically and unironically a rest for a while. I think their meanings are getting all fuzzy and useless.
I never said it, though. What the frick are you talking about?
That wasn't me, I was just butting in to mention how ironically/unironically are over being overused lately.
it's the zoomer version of what happened to the word "literally" and will eventually be so common place it will just be a new meaning for the word
yeah, you can't fight the way word meanings change. Oh well.
Unironically is still useful but some people like OP use it almost subconciously in a redundant way.
At least it's not like literally where it doesn't mean literally nowadays.
I guess people are so self-conscious and embarrassed about liking something that they think you're being ironic if you think something is good?
There are instances where people are more likely to assume you're saying something in jest. If you say "Morbius is the best movie in the past 10 years" everyone will assume you're doing an ebin funny.
That's why I asked how it would be ironically good you halfwit
>the ASM arc where Harry overdosed was actually an unironically good story
>unironically good story
>unironically
How are you this fricking dumb? You said "unironically good" and someone asked you how it could instead be "ironically good" as a means of pointing out your misuse of the word in your initial preposition. Good fricking grief, anon, you're moronic.
>implying that zoomers understand the words they use
If you look at how they use "unironically" then they clearly think it's there to add emphasis. To them, "unironically good" means "especially good" while "ironically good" means "not especially good". This is what happens when you're raised by the internet.
Yeah, I'm definitely old-fashioned about word usage. It still annoys me to see "objectively" used wrong so much. It means you have find a synonym for a perfectly good word.
I sure hope Marvel doesn't ruin the tragedy of Harry and Norman by turning it into
>Norman sold his son to the devil and was always evil even pre-Gobby
Eh, he's been evil before becoming the Goblin for a while now.
Even before he returned he'd shifted into being regarded as a nasty guy and a more abusive father prior to the Goblin in a lot of Harry stories.
Mephisto was certainly a step further than that though.
To be fair, by that point Peter had a seething hate for Norman for killing Gwen, and now Norman’s Goblin legacy corrupted his best friend. I don’t blame Peter for outright despising Norman, even though they did have nice moments when the Goblin wasn’t around.
The way it's framed in those Harry stories points to the intention being that Harry's whitewashing Norman's behaviour to cope, with the whole direction of blame at Peter came from not wanting to accept who Norman was.
Which in the end also got trampled over by the Mephisto & Mysterio stuff.
I think it was a mistake to make pre-Gobby Norman more evil over time. It's fine enough to show him as a bad father, but that doesn't always present in obvious ways. Very few writers seem interested in exploring the idea that Norman honestly struggled raising a son on his own while probably carrying so much guilt over the death of his wife (side note, but Emily being alive is also a shitty, shitty retcon and makes me think Lowe's endgame is to have Norman as an actual demon figure because his stupid ass seems determined to make him as over the top as possible and not in the good way). It wasn't right of him to put so much presure on his son while ignoring his needs, but nothing in the flashbacks we've gotten screamed that this was a man who would sell his only child's soul. Harry so very often being the only thing snapping him out of his Goblin spergouts says to me there was love there for him, but Norman is very good at building walls and refusing to admit to his faults.
Probably the closest to that idea is this issue, though it also claims Harry accidentally created the Goblin by messing with the serum which seems to mostly be ignored.
I actually liked that one ASM Extra issue around Dark Reign with the story of Norman and Harry bonding over learning to ride the bike then Norman later smashing it in front of him after after they reclaimed it after being stolen, in an earnest attempt to teach Harry a fatherly life lesson.
Like he wants to be a good parent and father and raise his son right but his values and outlook are so out of wonk that it messes him up instead.
this is going to be a bit sacrilegious, but this entire storyline was top tier, I do think making Norman physically abusive to Harry was a bad take. Mentally, yes. I see most of the abuse reflected in Norman replacing emotional love with material trinkets and thinking that would be enough. I know IRL abuse victims are pretty often abusive to their own children, but it was a much better comparison to have Amberson be the drunk, loud, alcoholic who beat Norman vs Norman as the cool, distant, neglectful father to Harry, actually avoiding physical harm in fear of seeing his father's face in the mirror. And ofc not realising he was still making the same mistakes, just taking a different direction to go there.
It's also the reason I don't like the American Son storyline. I don't think Norman would've sacrificed Harry for good press. It's part of another retcon that came after his rebirth that he wants the perfect child, either in Peter, the twins or Stanley (when everyone still thought he was his). I love Dark Reign, but at times they lost sight of Norman's personality. The American Son mini was better tbh. I wish they did more with Harry realising he has siblings, but I guess we have to deal with clones, demons and keikakus now
>Norman as the cool, distant, neglectful father to Harry
I think the angrier, bullying and shameful parenting of Norman works for Harry's inadequacy issues more.
My possible unpopular opinion on Norman is that while I like his characterisation and story in the Romita issues, I probably enjoy him more in later stories as a villain with more agency. I'm always a bit disappointed when adaptations go the root of the popculture jekyll & hyde rendition.
I mostly like American Son but I agree on Norman killing Harry. I'd like to think he was just fricking with Spidey or he just thinks he could do it but would actually struggle to if he tried.
I wouldn't put the threat off the table but actually going through with killing him should be this hefty moment where Norman looses himself permanently to the Goblin.
Not that that scenario is likely to happen now.
> Lowe's endgame is to have Norman as an actual demon figure
Come the frick on, you don’t actually believe that respective EPIC TWEEEEESTS!!!! weren’t actually Slott’s and Spencer’s ideas.
unless any one of them comes out and claims they planned it all, we'll never know for sure (and even then it's suspect). Slott is shit, no doubt there, and Spencer wrote a fine MJ/Peter but completely shit the bed in the last third (at least) of his story. But Lowe has been with them for almost the entire time and it does make you wonder how much he is contributing to not just Norman getting royally fricked, but also Peter (and Ben).
Ditko really did Harry dirty with that hairline. Norman always carried it well, but it made Harry look much older than his own father.
Harry just has his father's haircut.
It looks crap because that's not his real hair.
Strangest and dumbest headcanon I've seen in a while.
You're probably right, but as the editor, Lowe could have stopped Slott or Spencer at any time and told them that's crap, we're not doing it. But since he seems to have been an active participant in what they did to Ben, the man he doesn't seem to be someone who'd recognize a bad idea as being bad.
I will always like Mike Grell's Green Arrow run. He took a lot of storylines from headlines and didn't shy away from talking about drugs, HIV crisis, CIA and other things.
I like how Spectacular Spider-Man did this with the steroid goblin serum.
And a few years later, Green Arrow's kid partner was hooked on heroin. "Speedy..." indeed.
Yeah, the cartoon did a good job at "kiddifying" Harry's struggle with addiction.
Anyone else ever feel bad that Harry, even in his first appearance, has a worse hairline than his father?
Reminder that we were all promised a Norman/Gwen/Jackal sex sandwich yesterday. Possibly with Peter and Harry forced to watch.
lol ok
>"Shall we rock-paper-scissors it, Warren?"
>The other man frowns, but his annoyance is quickly erased by the presence of his deepest desire lounging naked on the bed next to him. It wouldn't do to become upset now when he could finally have her. Even if he had to tolerate Osborn. "Fine."
>They throw their hands and of course Osborn wins. wienery bastard.
>But she had wanted them and his rapidly beating heart couldn't deny her.
>Before Osborn can move closer to her, Miles grabs her in a tight embrace and steals her breath away. He would have this, a kiss before the other man could lay claim to anything else.
>She melts in his arms and he is hopeful she'll turn Osborn away, but when she breaks the kiss, she sighs a soft "Norman, come here," and wraps herself around him, letting Osborn's groping hands mark her skin.
>"Let's get on with it," Miles snaps, agitated, and settles behind the two figures.
>Osborn doesn't bother looking at him, but the smug smile fills him with hatred. You're here for Gwendolyne, he reminds himself, focus, ignore him.
>He picks up the lubricant and applies it generously. Osborn doesn't bother waiting for him and blunges into Gwen, making her gasp and throw back her head. He picks up a steady rhythm and Gwen is a moaning mess, nails dragging long lines across the man's skin.
>Miles doesn't want to be left behind, so against his better judgement, he spreads her and shoves his wiener inside her. She stills now, head turning to catch his eyes, tears streaming down her face.
>"Gwen, oh Gwen," Miles murmurs and starts to pull out, but her hands shoot out and stop him.
>She slips her arm behind him and forces him deeper, whimpering against the pain, but refusing to let him leave.
>Osborn bursts out laughing. "Oh, Warren! Don't look so concerned. Gwenny here likes it rough. Just enjoy yourself and frick her until she bleeds."
>He wants Osborn to shut up, but Gwen's eyes reflect the truth. He kisses her and loses himself in her body.
>the Jackal and the Goblin DP'ing Gwen
And then it was Mysterio.
Just shut up Pedro. Do you have to ruin everything?
>"Please, Master, I need it!"
>Quentin feels no shame saying those words. How could he when his Master is so generous, so patient with him?
>"Now, now, my little gremlin," Norman says, amused. How he enjoyed seeing that pathetic fishbowl head bent over, presenting himself like a b***h in heat. "Remember, the girls get to pleasure themselves first and only then are you allowed to try and make your Master happy. Do you understand, Quentin?"
>Quentin whimpers and lowers his head again. Sweat drips from his forehead and his knees are sore from kneeling for so long. But he won't go against his Master's will.
>A part of him, the one that comes out only during the moments he is forced to wait and bear the shame of being lesser, curses Harry Osborn and his scheming. This wasn't supposed to happen, it was only meant to be a gag.
>But Norman always comes out on top and didn't let a small detail like clone children, deals with devil figures and hypnosis bother him.
>Not when he could just clone his kids again and as a bonus, make an entire harem of Gwen Stacys. wienerhungry blondes spread-eagled on an available surface, begging to be bred by the auburn haired tyrant.
>And when Norman went to get his revenge against Quentin, well...
>He didn't expect to end up like this, not much better than a prostitute, dripping from the new hole his Master had forced him to get, waiting his turn to be filled again and again and again.
>Compared to his old life though? What bliss. He'd always been awkward with women, never could find one to be his.
>Maybe he was always meant to be a woman, fully at the mercy of a strong man, a true Alpha.
>Quentin's cheeks flush and he grows wetter hearing the sounds of gluttonous fricking, skin slapping against skin, hot seed being spent inside the fertile wombs of all those clones.
>Maybe if he was a good bo- girl, his Master would give him a womb as well. He'd be a good mother to their babies.
>That's all Quentin Beck, Mysterio, wanted out of life.
Quentin D:
Ex Machina. It was actually about politicians, so it was more appropriate than forcing it into otherwise normal comics.
I found a lot of Ex Machina discussions on topics like gay marriage were kind of bland though and didn't really get into it.
thread took an odd turn
This is what's going to happen to any Osborn discussion from now on.
I've just realised that since the Mephisto retcon implies Harry's life was shit because Norman sold him, Mephisto also made Harry do drugs.
they accidentally also implied Harry might've been the one to throw Gwen off that bridge. Though, that was probably just a case of a very unfortunate panel placement.
I mean, it was Harry's overdose that sent Norman over the edge and drove him to kidnap and kill her.
And now we know Mephisto had a hand in that so well done Spencer.
Why does Harry always look like he is 2 decades older than he really is?
Drugs.
Stress from being Stormin Norman's son.
I actually like that Harry has mostly managed to keep his weasely looks amongst his good looking friends. I wish they'd stop making him Peter's cool and handsome friend in adaptations.
It was the 70s.
It wasnt too good, but Harry really benefited from that long term character wise.
Since Kindred I've seen an uptick in discussing Harry stories that I've not seen since the 90's.
Guess you don't know what you had till it's taken from you.
To be fair, apart from maybe American Son and now this Kindred shit they've done frick all with Harry since he came back in BND
They wrote him out just before Big Time and that was in 2010. He didn't appear much afterwards until the second half of the Kindred saga.
>They wrote him out just before Big Time and that was in 2010.
Oh God.
He was prominent at the end of Slott's run, working for Parker Insdustries and then getting together and working for Liz.
And suprisingly decently written.
Did Harry and Liz actually marry off-panel? There wasn’t a story about Peter saving the day on his best buddy’s wedding? It’s like morons at Marvel don’t know what people read Spider-Man for.
Here the difference
top
>plot points that can make for some real intrigue
bottom
>preachy and annoying and ultimately irrelevant in any good story
homophobia and gender prejudice is basically just an X-men story though.
The metaphor has always been moronic though when you try to apply it to real marginalized groups. People have every right to be scared of mutants because those guys can fricking kill you, not to mention the telepaths.
Also the metaphor was and always has been about race and not any lgbt shit, but regardless of that the metaphor attracts the most degenerate comic fans that self-insert as muties and it's why the krakoa era is doing so well
>People have every right to be scared of mutants because those guys can fricking kill you, not to mention the telepaths.
Which is not too different from the fears about gays back then killing you by giving you aids, and the constant fears spread about how you end up gay.
>Also the metaphor was and always has been about race and not any lgbt shit
The metaphor started with race but over the years Marvel has decided to go "frick it, it's a stand in for whatever the frick marginalized and oppressed group is hot these days" and is not limited to just LGBT shit. It still stands in for blacks, or muslims, or gays, or whatever else they feel like using.
>Which is not too different from the fears about gays back then killing you by giving you aids
Yes it is. A man coming out as gay will not kill you, but a mutant just getting his powers has a good to decent chance of killing you. Being scared of getting AIDS from a gay guy fricking you is an irrational fear, whereas being scared of a telepath raping your mind because you committed thoughtcrime is a very real and very rational fear. The metaphor is stupid
>The metaphor started with race but over the years Marvel has decided to go "frick it, it's a stand in for whatever the frick marginalized and oppressed group is hot these days"
That's why the metaphor is moronic and lazy. At best it was an excuse for Kitty Pryde to say the n word a whole bunch
>Yes it is. A man coming out as gay will not kill you, but a mutant just getting his powers has a good to decent chance of killing you. Being scared of getting AIDS from a gay guy fricking you is an irrational fear, whereas being scared of a telepath raping your mind because you committed thoughtcrime is a very real and very rational fear. The metaphor is stupid
None of that matters. That was the rampant and irrational fear about gays in the 80s and 90s. In those days Mutants weren't this all powerful boogeyman who would "rape your mind because you committed a thought crime" that you mentioned. They were literally just kooky dudes with powers no different than Reed Richards or Black Bolt getting the shit end of the stick.
>They were literally just kooky dudes with powers no different than Reed Richards or Black Bolt getting the shit end of the stick
Which just makes it all the more stupid. The difference between then and now though is that the stories were still good.
>People have every right to be scared of mutants because those guys can fricking kill you, not to mention the telepaths.
So can any person on the street due to how easily accessible high tech is. Busiek literally has a guy in Marvels who basically dumpster dives for Marvel superhero tech. Or shit, your neighbor could be a Skrull. Or a cosmic god might want to eat the planet for lunch.
>but a mutant just getting his powers has a good to decent chance of killing you.
Only in the most rare and extreme cases. Your irrational fear of telepaths is dumb when you might also cease to exist when a cosmic being decides to snap their finger. Or a robot decides to kill every single living being inside a single country. Or a warlord from the future decides to destroy an entire city.
>being scared of telepaths raping your mind because you thought about them naked is dumb because Ultron and Kang exist
Are you moronic?
You can get fricked over by dozens of things, yet you only obsess about telepaths and hating mutants like an irrational little mouse.
I would rather deal with ultron trying to nuke me because I'm human over one of the cuckoos making me forget my own identity because I thought the term mutie
In other words you’re an irrational bigot.
Me, personally, I hate any story of pre-Goblin formula Norman being as abusive as he was when he took it.
Hard agree. Otherwise why would Harry defend his father so much
In that story Norman really was implied to be intimidating and abusive and Harry defending him showed his denial.
But it was still pretty average emotional and intimidational abuse alongside love and better times, not supervillain, deal making with the devil level of abuse.
we could've had Harry vs Gabriel kinó but Marvel is run by cowards. It would've been so easy to write some Osborn family tragedy with Harry trying to save his half-brother from Norman's influence but I guess MUH GWEN GOBBED trumps all