I’ve noticed over the years a lot of people’s biggest qualms with the Avatar’s finale comes towards this fight in particular. How come?
Ive noticed over the years a lot of peoples biggest qualms with the Avatars finale comes towards this fight in particular.
>Zuko was winning the fight
>Katara jumps in, causes him to lose, and then she steals his win
It’s not hard to see why people dislike this
She was explicitly there to back Zuko up in case things when breasts up. She was staying out of the way, but Azula is a cheating b***h and took a pot shot at a spectator. I swear you idiots make up excuses to be mad at nothing.
She shouldn't be there in the first place is the problem, involving her at all in this was a mistake.
>Zuko should be moronic and not bring any back up
...
He should have a single one on one confrontation with his sister to give a satisfying ending to the story of the two. Katara has no role here except to give her something to do in the finale and ruin the fight.
I don't even like the fight, but this sentiment is beyond moronic
>Zuko should've just waltzed into the royal palace alone while branded a traitor to the fire nation and challenged Azula to an honorable duel with absolutely no backup and no real plan
If he'd done that he'd have been the biggest moron in the entire fricking series, and crowning him firelord after that would be even more moronic
You are making it out like he needed help at all at this point. The only real threat or danger in the palace was his crazy sister who he was confident he could beat at that point. His plan was to confront her one on one and he did. Everything went perfectly until Katara got in the way. Bringing Katara was the thing that fricked up his plan and almost got him killed.
>he knew what danger he would face before he ever got there
You're moronic and don't understand how to differentiate things that you, the viewer, know after the fact from things that characters in the story know when they are happening.
>I wonder if there will be a lot of dangerous, super charged fire benders out at the palace? Better bring one water bender with me just in case. That's a good back up plan.
>The only real threat or danger in the palace was his crazy sister who he was confident he could beat at that point
Black person what show were you watching? He didn't decide that he was confident he could beat her until he got there and saw she was losing her fricking grip on reality. How could he have possibly predicted that before he ever decided to go there?
He didn’t know how things would go down or who else would be there. What if there were 10 elite fire nation soldiers with her and they decided to gang up on him? Having someone as backup just in case to help escape if things get dicey is why Katara was there
No, because an Agni Kai is something that you have to accept and that requires a 1v1.
It unironically would have went exactly the same even if there were elite fire benders there. Probably even better because honor was huge in the fire nation. They wouldn’t have stepped in to interfere.
True but they also wouldn’t do much against Azula threatening them and ordering them to help because “as Firelord she is now changing the rules and in charge. Help or Die.”
moron, the plan was never originally to challenge Azula to duel, why aren't you getting that? Zuko didn't decide to do that until they were already there.
Lmao this as soon as azula challenges zuko the following exchange pretty much happens
Azula
> agni kai zuzu >:)
Zuko
>fine!
Katara
>are you sure?
Zuko
>I can do this
See this post right here is perfect demonstration of someone just looking at what happens in the story on the surface level and accepting it without thinking about why the writers wrote it this way and why it doesn't work from a meta-standpoint. Try again
I feel like this kind of thing happens more often than it should. People defend a stupid thing that happened by pointing at the stupid thing that happened without understanding what the people calling it stupid are even saying.
You should rewatch the fight, because no.
Her dumbass walking onto the battle field caused him to have to take the hit to save her.
He had already won, Katara fricked it up.
Honestly if he had just successfully redirected the lightning that would've been fine as well. Why he gotta go down like a b***h?
Because redirecting lightning take a certain stance, and he had to jump in front of Katara to make the distance.
Well no, it’s true Azula was the only actual threat (everyone else there was just the standard fire bender jobber solider that at this point any of the Gang could defeat hundreds of) he originally came with Katara because the plan was to jump her 2 v 1. But seeing her literally insane made him confident he could beat her solo, which he was before Katara walked onto the battle field.
Though honestly I get why he wanted a 1v1, follow tradition and honor and all that. Katara would have had to fight the jobber fire benders anyway even if they decided to jump her together since there was like 5 of them who wouldn’t have just stayed out of it if they didn’t go the Agni route
> Though honestly I get why he wanted a 1v1, follow tradition and honor and all that. Katara would have had to fight the jobber fire benders anyway even if they decided to jump her together since there was like 5 of them who wouldn’t have just stayed out of it if they didn’t go the Agni route
These old fricks wouldn’t have been able to hold back Katara for longer than a few minutes at best.
>Because redirecting lightning take a certain stance, and he had to jump in front of Katara to make the distance.
Would've made it all the cooler for him to actually pull it off and not lose like a b***h.
He did though because he survived.
You're not fooling anyone, cretin.
>Bawww Azula cheated
It's a fricking war you stupid c**t
> its a fricking war
it was explicitly a duel that both sides accepted, not just a fight. Azula did cheat and its fair to call her out on it.
A zuko win would mean a cold blooded murder of his sister for the throne, which would be too dark , since they were afraid of killing off children
Zuko wouldn't be willing to kill her anyways
Or he could just blast her, she goes flying and hits a wall, and then she falls to the ground unconscious and defeated.
It's meant to show how much the characters have changed.
Season 1 Zuko would never have risked his own life for Water triber, Season 2 Azula wouldn't fight with unhinged emotions and season 1 Katara's water bending would never be as strong.
This, the only thing wrong with the finalize was aang and ozai
Zuko, Katara and Azula were in it
Are you sure? I never hear people bring up this scene in particular as a problem.
It's very unsatisfying and lame. Katara is mostly there to get in the way of shit and have something to do in the finale. Everyone involved comes away looking bad.
Well first of all, no it isn't most people have a bigger problem with energybending/the rock in Aang's back. Second the problem with this scene in particular is how it robs Zuko of a 1 on 1 duel with Azula and hands the win over to Katara instead in the most incredulous way possible (why is Katara just sitting in the line of fire and why doesn't she just get out of the way?)
Zuko won the fight mentally
No need to be upset.
>No new IPs
Frick off OP
Yes? And?
Zuko won the fight mentally, there’s no need to be so upset
I generally hear nothing but praise for it, but for me it's always been a weak point for the finale. The fight itself just wasn't interesting, it basically just boiled down to Azula and Zuko throwing big flames of different colors at each other from afar right up until OP's pic happens and then actual things happen. Compare this fight to any of Zuko's other big character moment fights from the rest of the series and this is easily the weakest one outside of animation quality. His agni kai against Zhao while being significantly more basic from an animation and scale standpoint has way more impact. Same with him vs the soldiers in Zuko Alone.
All the shit I've seen is around the last second spiritbending that resolved Aang's dilemma
People also don't like the Lion turtle and energy bending cop out.
I have literally never heard this complaint before ever despite being in discussions about this show and finale since it aired. Ever. In fact this fight is mentioned as a highlight all of the time.
The most common complaint has been “Dragon Turtle” the the point it’s a big meme. The Aang and Ozai fight I have seen a billion more complaints for.
Fricking damn it obviously I meant Lion Turtle. My brain is meshing endless discussions of why the end of A:tLA sucked with endless discussions of why the end of Game of Thrones sucked.
But no the Lion Turtle energy bending thing was always the biggest complaint.
I wonder if people would’ve warmed up to the Lion Turtle more if he was introduced earlier in the season
Possibly a bit more? I mean, a bit of background with Aang reading a scroll wouldnt have hurt but still the agni-kai carries the ending hard.
I mean yeah. The problem is it comes out of no where and gives Aang an easy way out
It would've felt less like an asspull, but the core issue most people had with the lionturtle was always that it felt like an unearned get out of jail free card for Aang's entire moral dilemma. I think there is a way that the "remove his bending" resolution could've worked better, but it would've required a lot more setup than even just introducing the concept earlier in the season, and if we're being honest I don't think the creators ever had any idea they were going to end up going that route until they were pretty close to finishing the show.
Ideally, the idea of using the Avatar's ability to manipulate energy itself to remove someone's ability to bend would have come from Aang himself, as some kind of epiphany after a lot of setup to introduce the idea that the Avatar can do that at all, through some combination of flashbacks, conversations with his past lives, information uncovered in ways like how they learned about the eclipse in the library, etc. Basically they'd have needed to have the idea that this was going to happen right from the outset in order to build it up in a way that would've felt natural and earned.
> but it would've required a lot more setup than even just introducing the concept earlier in the season,
this, I know that lion turtle imagery is referenced a few times, but just seeing them isn't really the same as knowing what they are/ what they represent in terms of power.
Ideally the concept of lion turtles and their massive power (maybe not super specific, but still) should've been foreshadowed a lot more before the finale.
I’m reading the comics, can Toph do this? I feel like she wouldn’t be able to do this. I feel like after a certain height she’s virtually helpless and can’t sense anything
She shouldn't unless the other are actively there to catch her.
Very risky, but I guess you can argue she hears appa and can calculate where he is going to be
Zuko fighting Azula had more narrative weight that Katara fighting Azula.
Smellerbee sisters….we’re actually TRANS???
Katara should have been behind something, not standing in the middle of the room like a dumbass.
I always thought the biggest qualm was Aang getting a power up from hitting that rock.
A boy can't beat a girl without some sort of caveat. It doesn't matter if Azula was insane, and it doesn't matter if she was consistently shown as strong and competent. Even back then, you couldn't just show a guy winning against a woman like that.
Except that episode were Katara got beat by the old sexist Waterbending master. I guess he was proven philosophically wrong though.
There’s an argument to be made that it would be more cathartic to have Zuko just straight up beat Azula and put an end to the rivalry but the writers decided to showcase his compassion instead. I kinda think that had been shown plenty at this point but I guess they also might have felt Katara didn’t really have a hell of a lot to do in the finale considering how big her character is in the story so this is how they saw they could get her involved.
No one has a problem with this scene. It's kino.
It's a fantastic resolution to Zuko's character arc. He had the choice to let Katara get zapped and take down Azula, or eat shit to save Katara. Taking down Azula and becoming Firelord was his 'destiny', but he gave it up to do what was selfless and right. The opposite of his decision in Crossroads of Destiny.
Zuko should be fighting Azula alone, it's kinda simple.
Even if he loses and she has to step in afterwards, maybe even apologises for it, but that's still a better outcome than a 2v1.
The finale has a ton of issues.
>Lion Turtle ex machina to solve contrived moral quandary about killing Ozai
>A conveniently placed rock fixes Aang's chakras without him ever having to reckon with his original problem of earthly attachments
>Ozai's plan isn't even properly insane, it's just plain moronic
>"I will be known as... THE PHOENIX KING"
>Zuko knowing about Ozai's moronic plan and just never talking about it feels like lazy writing
>Katara has no actual role to play, so they screw up Zuko's big moment so that she has something to do (there's some merit to Zuko making a big sacrifice, but it's not clean)
>The White Lotus taking Ba Sing Se is kinda orthogonal to what everyone else is doing, it's just there so that Iroh and the masters are too busy to help
Don't get me wrong, it's still a memorable finale because it delivers HARD as an action climax and it caps off the story well, but there's definitely some questionable writing decisions there.
It's the worst of the series' season finales, which is a shame because it's also the SERIES finale. It left a bad taste in my mouth at the time and still does.
It gets mogged hard by Crossroads Of Destiny, and Seige Of The North is better as well.
To be fair Crossroads of Destiny is such an insanely gdlk episode in general. I still remember watching it live as a kid and being blown away.
Seige of the North would’ve been top tier too if they had like one extra episode of them at the North Pole. They kinda just arrive there and then everything immediately happens, should’ve had a bit more set up imo.
But yeah, Sozin’s Comet is the worst of the finales which is odd because they clearly should’ve been focused on how to end the show since the beginning, when it feels like they just sorta came up with an ending midway through S3
>when it feels like they just sorta came up with an ending midway through S3
Because that's pretty obviously exactly what they did. The fact that they ended it on a deus ex machina was always evidence of that, as well as the fact that a lot of the first half of book 3 felt like filler while they tried to figure out how to get all the pieces into place to end things.
>when it feels like they just sorta came up with an ending midway through S3
It does kinda feel like they wrote up to the eclipse invasion and then ran through their ideas for "Zuko + a member of the gaang" episodes and then didn't actually know how to end the show. It's probably telling in some regard that they couldn't think of a Toph + Zuko episode, to the point of joking about it during the finale.
funnily enough, energybending was there from the very start of the creative process, so the awkwardness came from steering the plot into that particular scene.
You're right, but I can't deny that the action didn't knock my socks off when I was 10, even if I knew even as a child that the PHOENIX KING nonsense and the lion turtle thing were moronic.
>Ozai's plan isn't even properly insane, it's just plain moronic
It's Azula's plan, which is even WORSE because we've had Azula's competence repeatedly demonstrated and this was before she started to lose her mind.
Speaking of that, another problem with Sozin's Comet is that Azula's breakdown kind of comes out of nowhere. I still don't feel it was foreshadowed well enough. It's exactly like the Lion Turtle, come to think of it: we get hints of it here and there throughout the series, but not ENOUGH hints to make it feel like we saw it coming.
>It's Azula's plan, which is even WORSE because we've had Azula's competence repeatedly demonstrated and this was before she started to lose her mind.
Azula just made an offhand comment about burning the stupid dirt peasants and then Ozai ran with it and blew it up into a logistically nonsensical operation to burn down the largest continent in the world in the hours-long window the comet provided. Maybe if the plan was just to burn Ba Sing Se to ash as a symbolic move, it would've made some amount of sense, but then that would've run afoul of the White Lotus plotline and complicated things.
>we get hints of it here and there throughout the series, but not ENOUGH hints to make it feel like we saw it coming.
I get the feeling Azula was missing some scenes in the latter half of S3. Like, logically, Ozai should've been furious about Azula lying about Aang's death, which could've been a major turning point for her character. Daddy's approval and her sycophantic friends were basically all she had in life, so losing both would reasonably shatter her ego. But we get basically none of that and instead it almost comes off like she's just super broken up about daddy not taking her along to burn the dirt peasants.
> Azula's breakdown kind of comes out of nowhere. I still don't feel it was foreshadowed well enough.
Yeah I mean, it had a really good start with Tai lee and Mai betraying her, but we needed more of a gradual decline of her mental state due stemming from that loss of control, maybe if it led to her making more mistakes and losing face over it. It gets a bit too extreme too quickly.
It literally happens over the span of a few hours, people don't lose their marbles that fast.
its not like she was the pinnacle of sanity beforehand
Sure but she had a proper handle on herself. Her getting to such a degraded state as she is in the finale really should've had a couple more scenes/incidents to really hammer it in that she's lost control.
> A conveniently placed rock fixes Aang's chakras without him ever having to reckon with his original problem of earthly attachments
To be fair, he DID solve that problem in the S2 finale, he 'gave up' his attachment to Katara during the final fight and managed to intentionally go into the avatar state, it was Azula's lightining shot that fricked it up, and from that point on it just seemed like a legit physical problem that he couldn't do it anymore (or at least, a result of him nearly/temporarily dying) So while the convenient rock unlocking thing was kinda silly, I do think its fair enough that his chakras being unlocked again didn't need to be another spiritual journey thing or whatever.
The problem is that they demonstrated Aang still being very attached to Katara all throughout S3. Even just before the finale he's all twisted up about her not reciprocating his feelings. The rock just sidesteps actually unpacking any of that because they wanted to have their cake and eat it too.
You misunderstood the point of Aang letting go of his worldly attachments. He didn't have to cut off his feelings or connections with others, he had to let go of his fear of losing them and all that kind of baggage that would prevent him from realizing his full potential. He had to recognize his connection to the world and everything in it and that it was more important than his personal connections.
Yeah I think that complaint mostly comes up as a result of them not making it clear enough that his issues after Crossroads of Destiny were due to the injury rather than him still being conflicted. If you're not paying enough attention it kind of does seem like they had a magic rock fix Aang's depression or whatever lmao.
I really don't think Aang's chakras were supposed to be somehow permanently unlocked before Azula zapped him. Throughout Season 3 he's demonstrating all sorts of emotional baggage that he was supposed to have overcome during his training with the guru. It really undermines the meaning of the training if he can regress like that and still reap the benefits once he gets an impromptu chiropractic adjustment to undo the physical block.
Don’t mind me, Looked like Aang was about to choke out Toph right here kek
These comics are ok. I heard so much bad shit about them but they’re not really offensive or anything (except for Ursa giving up her memories, what a garbage mother)
I liked Ursa giving up her memories, thought it was cool to portray her as a shit mother. Makes you wonder if she really did love Azula or not.
the promise was garbage too
>no, I wont ask for my uncle, even if I'm up to my neck and I really need the help. I'll go ask Daddy, the geocidal maniac, for advice.
He made it seem like Iroh was dead too but no, he’s just running a fricking tea shop a few miles out like the frick
also: modern fork lifts probably traced from a brochure
>Waku Waku Waku
> except for Ursa giving up her memories, what a garbage mother)
QRD?
It’s crazy to me how integral Katara is to the series and group as a whole yet she really had nothing to do in the finale. If you removed her and had Zuko redirect the lightning to Azula and win, nothing changes.
How the frick did they forget to give one of their main characters something to do for the ending
Azula's redemption started cool in the search, but her starting some weird larping cult was very out of character
Kind of stole away Zuko's crowning moment to give Katara more screentime. Zuko winning because he was able to stay (relatively) calm and confident while Azula was the one who fell to anger and emotional instability would've been very fitting.
If they had to have Katara in the fight (to show that Zuko has learned to accept help from others, etc), it would've been better if she had indeed just helped a bit from the sidelines and keep the focus on Zuko. Also the fact that she was completely out of the way during all the big firebending that was going on but then suddenly is just right there when Azula starts whipping up lightining feels kinda contrived.
he had already won.
not sure exactly, but I'm guessing attempting to attack someone else outside the agni kai is grounds for forfeiting the match
> attempting to attack someone else outside the agni kai is grounds for forfeiting the match
not like that really mattered given the context. whose going to stop her? Lo and Lee?
the sages were there to officiate the coronation, I guess they would stick around as witnesses to a duel for the crown.
It's all Azula's fault for legitimating Zuko's claim by issuing the challenge.
It even contrasts that other scene in a previous episode where Zuko challenges her and she just dismisses him out of hand.
> I guess they would stick around as witnesses to a duel for the crown.
not like they could really do much if Azula just kills Zuko anyways, Ozai presumably wouldn't have given a shit either if he found out what she did.
I mean if any of them bothered to object she'd likely just kill them on the spot
sure, but since she was clearly off her rocker, cheated on a duel for the fate of the nation, and got neutralized by Zuko's "second", it all seems to point that she disgraced herself under either of those points
lol
Lmao even
I physically cringe every time
Wasn't the ending fine enough as it was? Literally who wants to read about zuko being cucked by some extremely forgettable looking rando?
He got to cuck Sokka in the end.
i wouldnt call it cucking but
dyke mud making harem including Ty-Lee as a bonus > titlet horsefaced goth girl
Mai seems to fricking LOVE Aang, I guess they got to know each other after the war was over.
He did return her little brother. And he brings some excitement into her life?
Speaking of might-have-beens, it's a fun pairing.
>Maang
Come on Maang!
>lovable goofball + emotionless goth girl
truly a timeless combination
God the comics are moronic
The ride never stops
Can’t wait for this all to be adapted in the animated movies!
I love that once Azula becomes not-crazy again she can redirect lightning. The one advantage Zuko had over her, and then it's gone and he's right back to being her b***h.
Damn, Azula, I know you're a firebender but did you have to roast your own brother like that?
Some people say Katara feels shoehorned into the fight but she fought each character individually during both season finales. It feels good to have the 3 of them together for the last fight and Katara beating Azula is like payback for killing Aang.
Her being in the fight wasn't really the entirety of the problem IMO, mostly its just because she A), just suddenyl showed up in the middle of the courtyard when the lightining shit started even though she was very much out of the way/out of view before that, and B) the way the fight was framed it makes it feel as though she sort of stole the spotlight from Zuko, when the fight was meant to be about him and Azula more than anything else.
If she'd helped out a bit to back Zuko up after Azula cheated and tried to rope her into the fight, it'd be one thing, but her having the 'finale' of the fight to herself just felt kind of disappointing.
Honestly it probably would've been fine enough if it had just ended with the lightning attack, Zuko jumps in to redirect it and gets hurt, but the redirect manages to blast Azula away and knock her out since she wasn't expecting him to be able to get to it in time or something. That way Zuko is still the one who gets the final blow/win while Katara has something to do by healing Zuko afterwards.
>That way Zuko is still the one who gets the final blow/win while Katara has something to do by healing Zuko afterwards.
That would have been too lame for Katara.
>azula was already tired from having her ass kicked around, i dont think that's a fair rematch
she had the comet and lightning
>she had the comet and the lightning
NTA but at that point of the fight Azula was out of breath and just throwing lightning everywhere which would be the equivalent to fighting a raging dog due to her buckbroken state.
A sane Azula would probably still get her ass handed to her against Zuko like on the southern air temple fight but Katara in a place where she had barely any water to bend would most likely have gotten fried.
It would have been more wise to take Toph to that fight IMO
azula was already tired from having her ass kicked around, i dont think that's a fair rematch
It undermines the conflict between her and Zuko for no reason
it was a last troll against the zutarians
>zuko almost sacrificed his life for hers!
>she healed him! she is crying!
>SIKE! KATAANG b***hES!
> Saving a friend and crying from the fact that they almost died/ relief that they didn't
> AHHHH WHY ARENT THEY HAVING SEX????
shippers seriously aren't capable of appreciating an emotional moment between to characters unless its romantic, huh?
werent both established with their own partner episodes before?
this thread kinda sucks, you guys need to level up your game
zaheer still the best antagonist of the entire franchise
That’s not Amon
Amon would've been a strong contender if Tarrlok's 11th hour backstory dump didn't ruin him.
I think he's heavily carried by the voice acting.
frick no
WAIT SO AFTER ALL THAT SHE JUST BREAKS UP WITH HIM AND WE DON’T EVEN GET TO SEE WHY???
FRICK THIS COMIC
>poster count isnt going up
prime schizo hours rn
>hurrr every single new post must be a new person in the thread
How new are you?
here's a pity (you) so you dont have to reply to yourself anymore bud
It's a great scene, probably the best part of the finale. Only brainlets hate it. Azula admitted defeat in the Agni Kai when she attacked Katara—she knew she couldn't beat Zuko fairly. And honor-obsessed Zuko, who had the chance to win the fight then and there, who could finally overcome his sister, sacrificed himself to save his friend instead, because that was more important than winning.
>entire goal of the series is Aang mastering the four elements so he can beat the firelord
>finally fights the firelord
>he gets ass beat and is only barely able to not die (sans the lightning deflection) but ends up buttfricking Ozai due to a complete accident
What was the point of it all if his win was from the Avatar State being ludicrously overpowered instead of his own strength as a bender.
It was always stated it would be a very hard match and Aang needed all the training he could get. He would have won if he decided to redirect the lightning back.
Would you prefer if they had fricked all together?
well there is a fanfic where Katara gets so horny she starts blood bending Azula to frick with ZuZu
quite hot raelly
Aang magically learning energy bending out of nowhere and using it to conventionally sidestep his moral dilemma was much worse
It felt bad because Katara standing around looky-loo'ing and getting damsel in distressed is highly out of character when she's been fighting most of her life.