I liked it and the voice acting for the dub is good. Slow rolling first act but the rest of the film is classic ghibli wondrous nonsense world and quirky characters. Wholesome and fun but not the emotional gut punch I was hoping for from Miyazaki's last film. What did you guys think?
I am utterly disappointed that he's going out with this vaguely pretty looking turd
it's no Princess Mononoke but I wouldn't say it was a turd
It's flawed and the storyline is weak but probably it's gonna end up my favorite miyazaki film of all time because it's full of metaphors and the storyline is weak so I can enjoy watching it more than a few times
I hope more animated films can be like this
it's undeniably creative and bold like all his films. he doesn't let his stories get bogged down in the details which makes them endlessly rewatchable. I'm gonna go see the sub soon and see if it changes my opinions on the movie at all
>it's good that there is no plot
You guys are cucked
nobody said there is no plot
there's plot it's just less plot focused. plot isn't the only important part of a movie
Yeah this film is filtering plotgays hard even though it has the most multilayered meanings and is a contender for some of the best aesthetics in any Miyazaki film
>plotgays
watch a nature documentary you insufferable moron
>watch a nature documentary
I would rather watch 50 nature documentaries than rewatch heron
Stick to capeshit.
It was mid as far as Ghibli movies go, but boy was it nice to go to a movie theater and watch a movie with some form of real storytelling and actual artistic talent put into its production.
I saw it twice, sub and dub. The first time around I was moderately frustrated by the lack of explanation of certain things.
>Those ships in the distance? Fantasy.
>Here's boat after boat of dead people-they cannot kill in this world. They are also implied to be the deceased of your world because they recognize your social cue of bowing. If you start a timer from their introduction to the last scene that they're in it will last less than 3 minutes, and they have no bearing on the plot.
>These are the souls of the pre-born that will literally never come up again and have no bearing on the plot.
>Willem Defoe has a fairly grizzly monologue as a graphically dying pelican about how the sea is cursed and this world is barren and cruel. It dramatically shifts the tone and has no bearing on the plot. Within 60 seconds of it ending it's back to light hearted comedy with the Heron. Even though there is a scene at the end of the movie where this could've come up again (where Mahito and the Grand Uncle are talking about if the world will be cruel or beautiful) it doesn't.
>The Parakeet King, one of the most influential figures on the plot, is introduced in the last 20 minutes of the film.
>There is no explanation of the Pelicans and the Parakeets other than they were "brought to this world" by the uncle. There is no reason given for why the pelicans look the same as the ones in our world but the Parakeets transform.
I can forgive all of that because ultimately it doesn't really matter, I can handle it being a vibe movie. On my second watch I cared about that stuff a lot less.
What really, really stuck out to me was the lack of explanation for the aunt character. There is zero reason why she is in the other world. At first it's implied the Heron kidnapped her to lure out Mahito, that's dismissed. Then Himi states that the aunt actively wants to be there to give birth in this world. All left unexplained.
Overall it felt like a movie that was continuously worked on as soon as the Wind Rises finished production and as a result is completely overbloated. It wants to be every type of Ghibli movie in the same package. First 30 minutes are incredibly serious with only a touch of fantasy, then it's complete fantasy, then it's Ponyo-tier fun with the Warawara, then it's back to complete fantasy, it's all over the place.
You forgot.
>no explanation of Heron Man, a main character
>Heron Man calls Mahito a liar for some reason when he enters the tower as if there's some backstory here
In a way it feels the most dreamlike out of any of the previous Ghibli movies. In the other ones there's consistent rules and behavior between each movie, they may operate on their own logic but it makes sense to that movie. This is just all over the fricking place.
He called him a liar because he lied to his father about how he got hurt
The line
>"I'll eat your heart out you liar..."
sounded incredibly personal. Especially the Heron Man's aggression in general. It all made me expect that he had some grudge against the kid/his family for some reason. Instead he's some kind of servant of the great grand uncle but also is gonna kill his grandson but also does the old man's bidding but also doesn't sometimes.
Since the Heron exists outside of the reality of the tower, i.e. remains even when the tower is destroyed, I think that the Heron is just an independent magic mischief maker unrelated to the Grand Uncle
But he seems to do the bidding of the uncle.
>summons Mahito to the tower for uncle
>uncle orders him to be the kid's guide
>is a magical bird-person like the other birds the uncle created
But he's the only one who doesn't turn back into a normal bird upon exiting too. So he seems to just be another "don't think too hard on it" element.
I'm beginning to suspect this movie isn't very good
It's good, it's just not what you expect out of Ghibli. I've watched 59 2023 movies and I have it at 30th. At 35 is where the drop off happens to movies that are average.
It's very nice looking/sounding nonsense.
All the parts are kinda nice on their own but don't make sense in conjunction with one another.
>remains even when the tower is destroyed
only in mahito's head, probably. every weird shit happened after mahito hit his head with a stone.
actually, from a meta perspective, it perfectory makes sense that the heron remains after the tower got destroyed even though he was working for the uncle because miyazaki is open about that the model of uncle is takahata and the model of the heron is suzuki, the producer of ghibli, and people like that
takahata died and lots of other people who worked with miyazaki for 50 years also died but suzuki is alive and still works with miyazaki so it just makes sense lol
totally agree with your minor gripes. the Maru Maru and the dead people I mostly consider set dressing so that didn't bother me but the dying Dafoe pelican felt like it should have impacted Mahito's actions more. The parakeet kings introduction as well as his motivations could have been better handled too. I'm not someone who needs everything to fit like a brilliant puzzle but I think it would improve the story to have these things fleshed out more.
>dying Dafoe pelican felt like it should have impacted Mahito's actions more.
it was there to be another reason why he rejected the false world. but it was mostly to show the audience how fricked up the system was.
>The parakeet kings introduction as well as his motivations could have been better handled too.
perhaps, but i see it as a way the false world world rewards malice.
Pretty obvious that the world has always existed as some kind of pre-life and afterlife for human souls and when their uncle entered the world he became master over it and somehow literally brought or conjured up the intelligent animals there, but because he's a human with natural malice in his heart it's a cruel place that's destined for ruin even though it probably exists in a different form after its destruction. It's relevant to the story because it's a place that Mahito is teased about his deceased mother being there except the twist is that her deceased self is not there at least in a recognizable form, but her younger self is there because she accidentally entered the world when she was young.
No it isn't "pretty obvious", nothing in this movie is "pretty obvious", what the frick are you talking about
They literally explain everything relevant and even irrelevant to the story. A meteor crashes down on Earth and the uncle builds a tower around to study it. Turns out it contains a portal to another world. This world contains prelife human souls who exist as the warawara and afterlife humans who exist as this black guys in the boats. Why can't the kill anything? Probably analogous to how in Buddhism people still crave things after death, but they aren't able to get it on their own hence the restriction on killing stuff so they need to trade for food, but this is irrelevant to the actual story. Uncle enters the world and touches the seed thing to become master over it. He has a fondness for birds and intelligent birds come to live there. It's a bit whimsical how it's always birds, but who cares? The carnivorous intelligent parakeets are funny looking. Now, it's a place of the dead meaning that Mahito's mother has to be there though she is probably one of the black boater guys or in some other form, but her younger self did come from the past and appeared there. Because she was part of the uncle's bloodline as master of the world she's bestowed with fire powers and other magical abilities. So Mahito literally does find his mother there. Because the uncle has malice in his heart as a human it's a desolate and harsh world and he's getting old and must find someone of his bloodline to maintain the world's balance and why Mahito was tricked by the Heron into coming there in the first place. Mahito can't be the master of the world either because he also has malice in his heart as a human. Parakeet King dislikes the way his people are forced to live and end up ruining the transfer of power anyway and the world begins to crumble. Mahito is able to see his mother one last time and accept his aunt as his step mother because they go back to their own time periods. What's not to understand?
I completely concede to your post and I've been thoroughly shut the frick down. I yield to you and kneel in submission, please take this post as an apology for wasting your time.
Yeah I must have fell asleep during that part
okay the anon you were responding to is a pussy so I'm picking up the torch. Your explanation is actually pretty insightful and I will concede you explained the lore of the world in pretty plain terms and that's all in the movie. my only disagreements are about the bird thing and his mom having fire power. I don't remember him mentioning a fondness for birds anywhere and anyway they're more like invaders than welcome visitors. maybe I missed it but it felt like they were trying to take control of the world not just live in it. and the fire powers his mom has I think are because she dies in a fire so that method of death somehow links to her. the Granduncle dude doesn't exhibit magical powers he just runs the tower world but we don't know how that ability manifests.
But more than all that it's not just the lore of the film being consistent that I take issue with. The movie doesn't do a good job of setting up the aunts relationship with Mahito and the Heron guy doesn't really make sense either. He at some points seems bound to the Granduncle and other times works in self preservation. He has an arc that ends with him calling Mahito a friend but that doesn't clear up his initial actions. Why does he pester Mahito to come to the tower if he doesn't actually care about guiding him once he's there? is he working for the granduncle or not? and finally the parrot king doesn't make sense either. He has amassed a massive parrot kingdom and has ostensibly taken over the tower. but then he meets with the Granduncle in private and acts more like a vassal lord than a competitor. and finally he ends up destroying the blocks which give the world structure which is in direct contradiction to trying to "preserve the paradise" like he mentioned earlier. whats he doing here? I'm not being a jerk I'd love to hear an explanation if you've got one
I would say that the birds are probably an abstract representation of what in the Uncle's heart. They were created when he touched the seed and the world was shaped by what was in his heart. He doesn't really have "powers" though the birds revere him as their creator. The Parakeet King especially knows that the Uncle doesn't really have much power other than maintaining the world and I guess he would rather the world be destroyed than be put in Mahito's hands despite Mahito refusing anyway.
The mom probably does get her powers through dying in the fire, but it probably also has to do with her relation to the uncle.
The Heron is probably has more of his own agenda so he tricked Mahito into entering the world knowing that the uncle wanted to meet him, but it would also lead to the world's ruin.
Heron man didn't seem to have any coherent motive once Mahito got into the tower and just kinda fricked off and disappeared for a while too.
none of that is as a sure thing though that's why you said "probably" to everything there. so that just proves his point that not everything in the movie is obvious. as insightful as your first comment was you sorta cherry picked (intentionally or not) the most solid aspects of the world rules. but you gotta admit not everything is so clear cut.
What isn't sure about it? It's a pretty basic interpretation of what is shown in the movie which most people would agree with. Doesn't get any more obvious than that without explicitly laying everything down for you.
I gave Scott Pilgrim a shot recently and that reminded me why I always stick to subs.
Hollywood actors know how to look pretty but they cannot vocalise for shit.
Wow, those Hollywood actors don't know shit about voice acting
The storyline was very weak. The animation was elite. Solid movie, but I won't watch this again for a long time.
I feel like going in expecting anything more than good animation from a Miyazaki film these days is a fools errand. The man peaked in the 90s and I feel like everything from Spirited Away till now has been "well the animation is gorgeous". Almost all the plots, characters, themes are all thin window dressing. Though that said I haven't seen The Wind Rises.
>childrens' movie makes no sense
Yeah.
It's rated pg-13. It's not a Barney daycare special nor does it market itself as one. There is no excuse.
13 is a child anon. Family Guy is rated PG14. It's basically nonsensical like Family Guy. It's artistic Family Guy full of non-sequiturs and cutaways.
I hope this isn't your attempt at talking the movie up
This movie like Family Guy? what are you on dude that's no where near a sensible comparison.
What do you anons think is up with the mom/aunt confusion throughout this movie? The first thing Mahito says about her is that she looks like his mom and she tells him to call her mom too. And when he's in the tower he starts to call her mom even when he meets his real mom in there. Is it supposed to be him moving past the grief? Or more about him starting to accept her as his father's new wife? Or is there more significance to her looking basically like a clone of his mom?
I thought it was just total nonsense but my own mom's interpretation was it being him accepting his father's new wife (his mom's sister, cause thats a thing jaoanese people do)
Not just the Japanese but in this time period and before it was not uncommon to marry siblings of your dead spouse. It makes sense when you think about it. Both the widower and the sibling have a close connection to the deceased and would bond over the death. And they probably already know each other well by nature of being family by marriage.
Another movie this year had this same plot device actually, a character in Killers of the Flower Moon marries 2 sisters of the wealthy Osage family after one dies.
What was the time period? It didn't seem clear if the war that claimed his mom was meant to be real or fantastical
it's semi autobiographical so I'm guessing it's WWII. I mean anytime there's bombing in a movie set in Japan you can pretty much assume WWII.
It's WWII homie.
On my 2nd watch it clicked a lot more that he doesn't like her, how he continues on into the tower when she comes looking for him the first time, how he coldly thanks her for the tea/refers to her as ma'am, how he shows her zero warmth. She says she's going to be his mother, she doesn't tell him to call her mother.
I wouldn't say there's any more significance than that. He's rejecting his situation (self harming to get out of school, shutting out his new mother figure, sneaking off) and to an extent "his world", and his character arc throughout the movie is learning to accept his world, to the point of literally being offered the chance to be the master of a world of his creation but turning it down to embrace the life he left behind.
I think the aunt is the weakest part of the movie, which is a problem because the plot centers around her. I think that Himi should've been a younger version of his aunt that he could've bonded with instead of his mother.
This is a great analysis anon I like your ideas. I mistook the coldness Mahito showed for dutiful respect which is normal in Japanese culture even among children. That's why their relationship dynamic eluded me this time. I'm gonna go see it again. Also I like better the idea of Hime being the aunt not his mom. I still think he needs closure from his mom somehow but I don't think meeting a young version of her did much anyway. They don't really ever talk about it either.
>What do you anons think is up with the mom/aunt confusion throughout this movie?
he hit his head and hallucinated the whole thing
that's the movie
ya sure but the hallucination is the movie. that's what this discussion is about. are you saying none of it matters because within universe its probably not real?
when you try to make sense out of nonsense, you are going to go mad/insane/crazy
boy and the heron is a call for help
miyazaki is the walking dementia
the whole studio should have stopped miyazaki from making it
feels reductive to call the whole movie nonsense. it's not like he threw this thing together in a weekend. but clearly you didn't like it and I'm not trying to change your opinion.
It's Mahito coming to accept her as his new mother. The problem is that before this he didn't seem vehemently against it either. She also doesn't show any animosity towards him until she says she hates him in the delivery room.
It seems like it was supposed to be
>Mahito refuses to accept her as his real mom
>she resents that he exists as a leftover from his dad's relationship with her older sister and wishes he was gone
>they hate eachother
>eventually they come to love eachother as a mother and son bond
Instead it was kinda out of no where.
ya totally agree. I didn't even realize he was bothered about it until Kiriko calls him out for not caring if she disappears. I don't feel like the setup of the movie was used properly. In fact the whole first act felt really weak here.
miyazaki's gone senile
>rest of the film is classic ghibli wondrous nonsense world and quirky characters
except it all feels like a hollow retread of other films, it lacks the magic and has NO memorable music
this film will be forgotten in 6 months, it's as bad as howl
he should have let wind rises or ponyo be his legacy
I got gut punched, but I suspect this experience is specific to people with unresolvable trauma. This movie spoke to me more clearly than any of his previous films.
Kid had an imaginary adventure to escape from the trauma of his movie dying in the war and moving to a new place.
Rules aren't gonna add up in the kid's imagination land.
>the trauma of his movie dying in the war
i know that feel, I cried a lot when my movie died... at the box office
This. The movie was basically Japanese Calvin and Hobbes. Boy uses his imagination to go outside and play and have an adventure and escape what's going on in his life. He finds his adoptive mom in the tower after she wanders off.
Except, that can't actually be the case, because his father sees him and his mother at the doorway and gets covered in parakeets and parakeet poop. The events have to be real.
the best way to watch Heron is to pretend you're a kid staying home from school and watching some weird anime on TV you swear was a dream 10 years later because you were absolutely blasted on cough medicine.
In a way I enjoy how much it completely doesn't give a frick and forces you to interpret it
It's a very dreamlike movie and that's what I like about it. Things have an internal logic and you just know not to frick with certain things because you don't know what will happen (like knocking over the dolls in the younger-aunt's dining room, or going into the mother's chamber, which are super important but never really explained why). There's just a sense of wonder that also has an understated unsettling aspect to it that's hard to put into words.
It feels dreamlike in the sense that it actually feels like a dream, not just bombastic over-the-top "LOL ISN'T JAPAN LE WACKY, WERE THE ANIMATORS ON DRUGS???" stuff as in other Ghiblis like Spirited Away or Pom Poko.
spirited away feels more like a dream
I never knew Spirited Away was quite disliked by some anons until boards started discussing Heron.
Still haven't seen Pom Poko cuz I can't justify staring at tanuki balls for any amount of time lmao.
>I never knew Spirited Away was quite disliked by some anons
It's a handful of very vocal contrarians. SA is the one that won the Oscar so Miyazakigays like to hold it up as his masterpiece, which obviously rubs others the wrong way because everyone has their own favorite.
>or going into the mother's chamber, which are super important but never really explained why
I think this is analogous to how eastern religions believe that childbirth is the weakest point between the spirit and material worlds and for everyone's safety mothers need to be left alone and undisturbed during childbirth, but yeah, it's not explicitly explained and not really relevant other than Mahito's aunt doesn't want o see him and secretly resents him for not fully accepting her as his new mother.
I heard (haven't watched yet) that this movie is basically Hayao's greatest hits remixed with some autobiographical elements. That there are characters and locations that look vaguely similar to those of his most popular movies. Is this true?
>That there are characters and locations that look vaguely similar to those of his most popular movies. Is this true?
yes
They basically put all his movies in a blender and splattered the contents against the wall
I'd say yeah. It's not so similar that any self-referential stuff comes off as masturbatory, but it feels like retreading familiar territory. It's a true, genuine Ghibli movie though unlike Earwig and the Witch, which was an abomination against God on top of being pure imitation Ghibli.
>Earwig and the Witch
What are you referring to anon? There is no such movie
>Introduce a golden gate that reads "Those who seek my knowledge shall die"
>gate is connected to a rock wall built to around hip height, easily vaulted over
>no-nonsense pirate b***h chastises the boy for opening the gate for the Pelicans when they could've flown over at any time
>produces a ring of fire with a magic baton and utters a prayer to protect them
>Mentions the dead rising multiple times, implies that the stone cave is some sort of mass grave
>Never comes up again, and two scenes later the dead are shown to be passive customers of the pirate
NOTHING MAKES SENSE
did anyone cringe at the jam scene?
like c'mon miyazaki, jam isn't that amazing, you just wanted to put a food eating scene in
and the sound the butter made when scraped on the toast, it sounded like sandpaper shaving wood, wtf were they thicking
it was so much goddam butter too
for a second I thought, is it butter or peanut butter?
me too bc who mixes butter and jam?
some people do
it's a bad idea though
I felt like I was in the wrong movie theater, I'm not a little girl who goes and eats at picnics and has mind blown by ordinary jam
he loves food scenes and I think that was the only one
it's served by his dead mom in a 12 yo form. it's miyazaki's wet dream
never once have I eaten jam where it got on my nose, miyazaki has gone senile
If you look at it from Mahito/Miyazaki’s perspective it’d be like something straight from heaven compared to wartime rations.
I think he’s making peace with his legacy, not handing it over to his son (who admits he has malice) not giving it to Disney (the sparrow king). He’d rather let his tower crumble. And he’s saying goodbye to us.
thats a nice thought but I kinda doubt Disney was making a bid for Ghibli anyway. Not a lot of widely known IP for them to ruin
>sparrow
he was a parakeet
miyazaki must have gotten chased by a goose as a kid to be so scared of birds
Thanks for all the good discussion anons
you're welcome shill
He's not a shill I was in the last thread where he said he'd be leaving to go see the movie and come back. I'm sure he recognizes me repeating my blender comment.
nice an alibi. ya that was me
>makes Cinemaphile named account using film's main character's name
thats a shill
you can change the name at any time tard. I like to keep a name when I make a thread. I've used other names too
still a shill in my eyes
So is it possible to discuss new films without being a shill in your world or is that out of the question
if you make a named account, you're a shill
flawless logic there
Cinemaphile named account
Lmao what the frick did you just say?
i thought it was a good final movie for miyazaki
its a film that captures his knack for creating a sense of boyish wonder and adventure
i feel it might've worked better as a summer movie than a december movie
I think the fantasy bloat in the second half was on purpose.
>oh you want some fantasy? Escape from your problems into your cartoons you fricking child and be happy.
It was almost boarding on parody with the amount of Ghibli references that the movie was throwing in your face. The kid wasn't coming to peace with his grief and needed to understand that it's ok to say goodbye and move on.
*bordering
also someone said the jam scene was too much but it might have been another moment where Miyazaki was making fun of the audience for loving ghibli food so much.