Lady Shiva seems like the type (with her brand of imperious & self-demanding nature which is coupled with a suppressed desire, that will probably never be fully realised, to go beyond being detached) that would be sort of autistic when it comes to sex and also confusingly aggressively sexually submissive. Being in a relationship and having sex with her would go something like: >Her, as she commonly is wont to do, fricking you Amazon position. The inherent dominance aspect is nuanced, potentially even ultimately nominal. Whilst she does like the control the position provides her, that like is not so much for the dominance and instead comes from the part of her that is approaching this as an exercise to excel at. Crudely put Shiva thinks she is better at fricking than you and hence she will be doing the fricking, yet this is in service to you and it is Shiva doing the work for your pleasure. Different aspects of her nature have meshed together, perhaps to the point of semi-fixation, to dictate that a key point of said exercise is your pleasure and consequently her own satisfaction is derived from ensuring yours. >She orgasms and angrily sighs, for she is in self-imposed orgasm denial. She claims, in what you think is a half-truth, this is done as a way to test and improve both her physical and mental self-control. >Quickly calming-down, she goes to get rope and a cane. She states, neither as a demand or request but instead as a matter of fact, you need to now hogtie her and cane her soles. She claims, with the implication of her words and tone that this is nothing sexual in nature, it is to punish/discipline her for her lack of self-control however, you both know that this is a lie and she just needs excuses when it comes to you subjecting her to bondage and spanking.
Shiva would be all regimented when it comes for to time and place + big on preparation. >Anon, as you know tonight is sex night. A reminder that we scheduled it to be 21:30 and it has just turned 21:00. I take it you learnt the new rope bondage techniques outlined in the file I provide four days ago. Excuse me, I am going to prepare the room and myself.
I imagine her berating Cass for what she perceives to be inadequate sexual technique and non-existent seduction. Admonishing Cass as being too basic and failing to master capturing being sublimely erotic.
She is more interesting with The Question and Richard Dragon than Batman, though DC does nothing with the former two. An example of how much DC has come to rely on Batman and how everything gets brought into Batman’s orbit.
Pretty much. You take away Cass and she is of far less note. This also just gets back to what I said above. I wonder whether or not her association with Batman has actually done more good or harm to her character?
I imagine her berating Cass for what she perceives to be inadequate sexual technique and non-existent seduction. Admonishing Cass as being too basic and failing to master capturing being sublimely erotic.
>I wonder whether or not her association with Batman has actually done more good or harm to her character?
I think at the end of the day it was necessary for her character to survive the "Kung Fu comic" bubble bursting. Same with Bronze Tiger becoming a Suicide Squad character with a past connection to Batman. Richard Dragon is the furthest removed from Batman and consequently, he's fallen the furthest into obscurity.
At this point the question is just "Is it better for a character to vanish than for them to job every once in a while?" I think jobbing is preferable.
I'd be more OK with a character jobbing once in a while if it also came with at least some solo stories of them being cool, but like
I'm surprised that a character known to be one of the deadliest fighters in the DC universe has yet to get her own series. I'd imagine they'd be straightforward stories that revolve around her missions that involve eliminating people in Gotham or other known DC cities while exploring her past. Also, I was hoping she would be one of the main characters in the upcoming Birds of Prey comics because of her appearances in the Urban Legends series, but now all I can hope for is that she'll make some guest appearances.
notes, Shiva's been around for nearly 50 years without even a miniseries. And then there's the other problem, which is that Shiva in Batman titles doesn't just job, she's also written in terribly one-dimensional ways for the sake of giving him and the senpai a new adversary. Appearances like that erode a character. Hell, up until about 2019, I would've chosen vanishing over more trash like League of Shadows.
Kung-Fu stories aren't super popular anymore. Maybe if they want to push a movie or something.
There's also the "complication" of the whole Dragon Lady, asian character doing martial arts that's a mine field nowadays. On the one hand, some people get mad about pigeonholing asian characters just into martial arts stories. On the other hand, some people get mad about non-asians doing martial arts (or at least just white people). But we got stuff like the Warriors getting re-started because of fan outcry, and martial arts is still kind of generally popular and may have a nostalgic, gritty resurgence in the west. So maybe one day.
I don't think those are as much of a problem as they seem unless the dragon ladiness is REALLY obvious. I think anyone who's read her in Question can tell there's way more to her than that, and like you mention, with martial arts having a bit of a resurgence in other media, it's not a stretch to imagine someone wanting to do something with DC's chronically underdeveloped kung fu corner.
Half the problem with the claim that Shiva is a dragon lady is that it's modern writers and artists who lean heavily into that stereotype. It feels like a "this is a problem because we changed things about it to make it a problem."
While the story and appearance wasn't great, one element of her showing up in Batgirls that I did like was how she was relaxed and more open when talking to Steph but controlled and all business when talking to Cass. I know you prefer a more "force of nature" style Shiva, but I thought it was a nice touch of humanity.
Oh yeah, a lot of writers got their cue for Shiva from shit like Hush or Dixon's Batman stuff, so that's all they saw Shiva as. But I think that, as long as you get writers who see and write Shiva as a full character, the "Dragon Lady" thing won't be nearly as much of a barrier. Especially now that DC has a bunch of Asian characters who are not about doing kung fu.
Pitch me a Lady Shiva comic miniseries or animated film.
For a miniseries, the apprentice of a martial arts master murdered by Shiva swears revenge and goes after her, only to find a Shiva that's way different from what they expected (i.e.: they expected 90s evil monster Shiva and got weird detached aloof Shiva instead). Things get complicated further when it turns out the dead master owed some criminal gang a lot of money, so now they want to make the apprentice to come work that debt off, and Shiva finds herself in the middle of it. Use it to talk about the weight of expectations, the shattering of prejudices and how to live a life free of external pressures.
For an animated film, a sequel to Soul of the Dragon. Dragon and co escaped from Dragon Hell, but the experience left Shiva a bit shaken, so she goes out on a years-long journey with Soulbreaker to figure out what to do next. Road takes her to Hub City in the 80s and the rest of the movie is a loose adaptation of issues #28-30 of O'Neil's Question run.
To be clear, I don't have any problem with the actual Lady Shiva stories/character under discussion here. It was just about outlining some of the behind the scenes stuff that probably gets bandied around when deciding who gets a push or a big new story/adaptation. It might not even be an actual thing that would happen if they tried. But the fear of it, due to the megaphone effect of online circles, is probably a factor holding her back at least until the scales tip in someone's mind at some point.
I think there's a very easy way to solve that, which is something that should've happened a long time ago anyway: get an actual Asian/As-Am writer to write her. Admittedly, that one comes with its own can of worms, which is that no Asian/As-Am writer should feel obliged to "fix" Shiva, but if someone like Ram V or Alyssa Wong or Marjorie Liu or Gene Luen Yang has a Shiva story that they want to tell, or if they can find enough in her that's interesting, then by all means they should be given a place to do it. Not just for marketing purposes, but because it'd be cool to get that different perspective on her.
No I fell in love with Shiva when I first read Knightfall as a kid. Then I read Question and I still liked her, and then when I learned Cass was her mom I was happy two cool characters had a connection. Shiva's only enemy is editorial. She's the type of character who should only appear when necessary and when she can shine. Not every character can be a big star you need smaller characters with a good track record too.
I'm glad she's been free of any League of Assassins bullshit for a couple of years now, but it bugs me how pretty much all of her big appearances since then have all had something to do with Cass. Which wouldn't be that much of a problem if they actually did something compelling with them, like addressing that it was kinda fricked that Shiva left her with David or exploring their differences and similarities when it comes to fighitng. But it's all been just a lot of vague teasing and inconsistent characterization that doesn't seem to go anywhere. If they're not gonna do anything interesting with them, they should start giving Shiva some actual goddamn solo stories that show people who she is other than "Cass' mom". Maybe those Question omnibuses will help.
Also, they need to stop fricking around and give Nikola Cizmesija the Shiva story he desperately wants to make.
Nope, she quit for good in Hill's Batman and the Outsiders. It was cool! Also, thanks!
She is more interesting with The Question and Richard Dragon than Batman, though DC does nothing with the former two. An example of how much DC has come to rely on Batman and how everything gets brought into Batman’s orbit.
Pretty much. You take away Cass and she is of far less note. This also just gets back to what I said above. I wonder whether or not her association with Batman has actually done more good or harm to her character?
[...]
I think you can take Cass away from Shiva without any problem as long as you give Shiva some actual cool stories. Look at her appearances in Question, Birds of Prey,
I prefer SOUL of the Dragon.
and such. There's a ton of untapped storytelling in her. And yeah, I feel like her association with Batman has been a bad thing overall, but I'll always lay that at the feet of writers like Starlin, Dixon (especially Dixon) and Loeb.
I'm surprised that a character known to be one of the deadliest fighters in the DC universe has yet to get her own series. I'd imagine they'd be straightforward stories that revolve around her missions that involve eliminating people in Gotham or other known DC cities while exploring her past. Also, I was hoping she would be one of the main characters in the upcoming Birds of Prey comics because of her appearances in the Urban Legends series, but now all I can hope for is that she'll make some guest appearances.
Kung-Fu stories aren't super popular anymore. Maybe if they want to push a movie or something.
There's also the "complication" of the whole Dragon Lady, asian character doing martial arts that's a mine field nowadays. On the one hand, some people get mad about pigeonholing asian characters just into martial arts stories. On the other hand, some people get mad about non-asians doing martial arts (or at least just white people). But we got stuff like the Warriors getting re-started because of fan outcry, and martial arts is still kind of generally popular and may have a nostalgic, gritty resurgence in the west. So maybe one day.
A recycled character from the early days of action adventure comic books who was sorted into the rogues gallery of a more popular franchise. There's a certain pleasure in seeing an antique recycled well, but also a certain distaste in seeing it grafted into another setting's mythos.
Is it really recycling if the same guy who created her also wrote her into his superhero stuff? Dennis O'Neil made martial arts and globetrotting adventures a cornerstone of his Batman, both from his writing and his editorial era
Arguably it's no more recycling than bringing previous continuities into new ones and weaving them together, it's just kind of the feeling of seeing an unexpected survivor from a previous version of The Matrix, if that makes sense.
Shiva should easily be a Baki, Street Fighter, K.O.F tier Fighter. Characters like Batman should never be able to match her heand to hand, and need heavy weapons, tricks, or gimmicks to win or stand a chance.
What exactly is it with DC and Asian milfs? Lady Shiva, Cheshire, Talia al Ghul, China White, Katana, Doctor Light and whatever others I am forgetting or don't know about.
For DC to pick up an animated film with her you are going to have to included Batman. Just look at that Justice League Dark film that had him shoehorned in - if Constantine can't escape Batman, Shiva won't - or how Soul of the Dragon is Batman: Soul of the Dragon.
Pitch me a Lady Shiva comic miniseries or animated film.
Apart from Batman just being used in everything, with any Shiva project the obvious increased Batman risk is her being already rather strongly linked to his mythos. Realistically any Shiva focused project seems difficult for the aforementioned, what other anons have posted in this thread about martial arts and dragon lady, and also arguably her not being a popular enough character. Your best bet is perhaps a project centred on The Question that features Lady Shiva as a prominent character.
I am not saying it is a good idea or not but, if we are discussing pitches that I could actually see getting greenlit: basically think John Wick but, with martial arts instead of guns and Lady Shiva in place of Wick.
She should be everyone's Cheshire cat. Not a direct antagonist, but a shit stirrer who hopes to have an interesting day.
Eventually somebody powerful is gonna get sick of her shit and take her head off
>black lipstick
Wow edgy
Has she ever had a complete beat down that wasn't just an asspull?
Is that Bubbleman from YuGiOh?
Lady Shiva seems like the type (with her brand of imperious & self-demanding nature which is coupled with a suppressed desire, that will probably never be fully realised, to go beyond being detached) that would be sort of autistic when it comes to sex and also confusingly aggressively sexually submissive. Being in a relationship and having sex with her would go something like:
>Her, as she commonly is wont to do, fricking you Amazon position. The inherent dominance aspect is nuanced, potentially even ultimately nominal. Whilst she does like the control the position provides her, that like is not so much for the dominance and instead comes from the part of her that is approaching this as an exercise to excel at. Crudely put Shiva thinks she is better at fricking than you and hence she will be doing the fricking, yet this is in service to you and it is Shiva doing the work for your pleasure. Different aspects of her nature have meshed together, perhaps to the point of semi-fixation, to dictate that a key point of said exercise is your pleasure and consequently her own satisfaction is derived from ensuring yours.
>She orgasms and angrily sighs, for she is in self-imposed orgasm denial. She claims, in what you think is a half-truth, this is done as a way to test and improve both her physical and mental self-control.
>Quickly calming-down, she goes to get rope and a cane. She states, neither as a demand or request but instead as a matter of fact, you need to now hogtie her and cane her soles. She claims, with the implication of her words and tone that this is nothing sexual in nature, it is to punish/discipline her for her lack of self-control however, you both know that this is a lie and she just needs excuses when it comes to you subjecting her to bondage and spanking.
Shiva would be all regimented when it comes for to time and place + big on preparation.
>Anon, as you know tonight is sex night. A reminder that we scheduled it to be 21:30 and it has just turned 21:00. I take it you learnt the new rope bondage techniques outlined in the file I provide four days ago. Excuse me, I am going to prepare the room and myself.
yeah, it would be like you to be babied around by another woman you manchild
I imagine her berating Cass for what she perceives to be inadequate sexual technique and non-existent seduction. Admonishing Cass as being too basic and failing to master capturing being sublimely erotic.
That's just porn logic, no comic I've ever read of heard of has done this. jerk off before you post next time
wheredoyouthinkweare.jpg
Frick off, raise your standards of writing, even actual porn has better writing than what you brought forth
Built for BGC.
G? Gordon?
Of course.
https://files.catbox.moe/x8lock.jpg
Very nice, but what the frick
only cassgays care about this hag
She is more interesting with The Question and Richard Dragon than Batman, though DC does nothing with the former two. An example of how much DC has come to rely on Batman and how everything gets brought into Batman’s orbit.
Pretty much. You take away Cass and she is of far less note. This also just gets back to what I said above. I wonder whether or not her association with Batman has actually done more good or harm to her character?
>I wonder whether or not her association with Batman has actually done more good or harm to her character?
I think at the end of the day it was necessary for her character to survive the "Kung Fu comic" bubble bursting. Same with Bronze Tiger becoming a Suicide Squad character with a past connection to Batman. Richard Dragon is the furthest removed from Batman and consequently, he's fallen the furthest into obscurity.
At this point the question is just "Is it better for a character to vanish than for them to job every once in a while?" I think jobbing is preferable.
I'd be more OK with a character jobbing once in a while if it also came with at least some solo stories of them being cool, but like
notes, Shiva's been around for nearly 50 years without even a miniseries. And then there's the other problem, which is that Shiva in Batman titles doesn't just job, she's also written in terribly one-dimensional ways for the sake of giving him and the senpai a new adversary. Appearances like that erode a character. Hell, up until about 2019, I would've chosen vanishing over more trash like League of Shadows.
I don't think those are as much of a problem as they seem unless the dragon ladiness is REALLY obvious. I think anyone who's read her in Question can tell there's way more to her than that, and like you mention, with martial arts having a bit of a resurgence in other media, it's not a stretch to imagine someone wanting to do something with DC's chronically underdeveloped kung fu corner.
Half the problem with the claim that Shiva is a dragon lady is that it's modern writers and artists who lean heavily into that stereotype. It feels like a "this is a problem because we changed things about it to make it a problem."
While the story and appearance wasn't great, one element of her showing up in Batgirls that I did like was how she was relaxed and more open when talking to Steph but controlled and all business when talking to Cass. I know you prefer a more "force of nature" style Shiva, but I thought it was a nice touch of humanity.
Oh yeah, a lot of writers got their cue for Shiva from shit like Hush or Dixon's Batman stuff, so that's all they saw Shiva as. But I think that, as long as you get writers who see and write Shiva as a full character, the "Dragon Lady" thing won't be nearly as much of a barrier. Especially now that DC has a bunch of Asian characters who are not about doing kung fu.
For a miniseries, the apprentice of a martial arts master murdered by Shiva swears revenge and goes after her, only to find a Shiva that's way different from what they expected (i.e.: they expected 90s evil monster Shiva and got weird detached aloof Shiva instead). Things get complicated further when it turns out the dead master owed some criminal gang a lot of money, so now they want to make the apprentice to come work that debt off, and Shiva finds herself in the middle of it. Use it to talk about the weight of expectations, the shattering of prejudices and how to live a life free of external pressures.
For an animated film, a sequel to Soul of the Dragon. Dragon and co escaped from Dragon Hell, but the experience left Shiva a bit shaken, so she goes out on a years-long journey with Soulbreaker to figure out what to do next. Road takes her to Hub City in the 80s and the rest of the movie is a loose adaptation of issues #28-30 of O'Neil's Question run.
To be clear, I don't have any problem with the actual Lady Shiva stories/character under discussion here. It was just about outlining some of the behind the scenes stuff that probably gets bandied around when deciding who gets a push or a big new story/adaptation. It might not even be an actual thing that would happen if they tried. But the fear of it, due to the megaphone effect of online circles, is probably a factor holding her back at least until the scales tip in someone's mind at some point.
I think there's a very easy way to solve that, which is something that should've happened a long time ago anyway: get an actual Asian/As-Am writer to write her. Admittedly, that one comes with its own can of worms, which is that no Asian/As-Am writer should feel obliged to "fix" Shiva, but if someone like Ram V or Alyssa Wong or Marjorie Liu or Gene Luen Yang has a Shiva story that they want to tell, or if they can find enough in her that's interesting, then by all means they should be given a place to do it. Not just for marketing purposes, but because it'd be cool to get that different perspective on her.
No I fell in love with Shiva when I first read Knightfall as a kid. Then I read Question and I still liked her, and then when I learned Cass was her mom I was happy two cool characters had a connection. Shiva's only enemy is editorial. She's the type of character who should only appear when necessary and when she can shine. Not every character can be a big star you need smaller characters with a good track record too.
Yeah. That's her.
Literally who
I'm glad she's been free of any League of Assassins bullshit for a couple of years now, but it bugs me how pretty much all of her big appearances since then have all had something to do with Cass. Which wouldn't be that much of a problem if they actually did something compelling with them, like addressing that it was kinda fricked that Shiva left her with David or exploring their differences and similarities when it comes to fighitng. But it's all been just a lot of vague teasing and inconsistent characterization that doesn't seem to go anywhere. If they're not gonna do anything interesting with them, they should start giving Shiva some actual goddamn solo stories that show people who she is other than "Cass' mom". Maybe those Question omnibuses will help.
Also, they need to stop fricking around and give Nikola Cizmesija the Shiva story he desperately wants to make.
Isn't she currently head of the League of Shadows? Ra's League-within-a-League?
Also, did you ever do anything with your Lady Shiva script, Judge Anon? I remember it was pretty cool.
Nope, she quit for good in Hill's Batman and the Outsiders. It was cool! Also, thanks!
I think you can take Cass away from Shiva without any problem as long as you give Shiva some actual cool stories. Look at her appearances in Question, Birds of Prey,
and such. There's a ton of untapped storytelling in her. And yeah, I feel like her association with Batman has been a bad thing overall, but I'll always lay that at the feet of writers like Starlin, Dixon (especially Dixon) and Loeb.
I'm surprised that a character known to be one of the deadliest fighters in the DC universe has yet to get her own series. I'd imagine they'd be straightforward stories that revolve around her missions that involve eliminating people in Gotham or other known DC cities while exploring her past. Also, I was hoping she would be one of the main characters in the upcoming Birds of Prey comics because of her appearances in the Urban Legends series, but now all I can hope for is that she'll make some guest appearances.
Kung-Fu stories aren't super popular anymore. Maybe if they want to push a movie or something.
There's also the "complication" of the whole Dragon Lady, asian character doing martial arts that's a mine field nowadays. On the one hand, some people get mad about pigeonholing asian characters just into martial arts stories. On the other hand, some people get mad about non-asians doing martial arts (or at least just white people). But we got stuff like the Warriors getting re-started because of fan outcry, and martial arts is still kind of generally popular and may have a nostalgic, gritty resurgence in the west. So maybe one day.
A recycled character from the early days of action adventure comic books who was sorted into the rogues gallery of a more popular franchise. There's a certain pleasure in seeing an antique recycled well, but also a certain distaste in seeing it grafted into another setting's mythos.
Is it really recycling if the same guy who created her also wrote her into his superhero stuff? Dennis O'Neil made martial arts and globetrotting adventures a cornerstone of his Batman, both from his writing and his editorial era
Arguably it's no more recycling than bringing previous continuities into new ones and weaving them together, it's just kind of the feeling of seeing an unexpected survivor from a previous version of The Matrix, if that makes sense.
For me it is Jade Canary.
You remember that time she was so mad she killed two of her on men?
Remember when Orphan stabbed her?
feet
I prefer SOUL of the Dragon.
Shame we'll never get more from this setting. Just like Gods and Monsters, I am left blue-balled.
Shiva should easily be a Baki, Street Fighter, K.O.F tier Fighter. Characters like Batman should never be able to match her heand to hand, and need heavy weapons, tricks, or gimmicks to win or stand a chance.
What exactly is it with DC and Asian milfs? Lady Shiva, Cheshire, Talia al Ghul, China White, Katana, Doctor Light and whatever others I am forgetting or don't know about.
>whatever others I am forgetting or don't know about.
Tigress in Stargirl, Linda Park, Shado, Tsunami
Pitch me a Lady Shiva comic miniseries or animated film.
For DC to pick up an animated film with her you are going to have to included Batman. Just look at that Justice League Dark film that had him shoehorned in - if Constantine can't escape Batman, Shiva won't - or how Soul of the Dragon is Batman: Soul of the Dragon.
Apart from Batman just being used in everything, with any Shiva project the obvious increased Batman risk is her being already rather strongly linked to his mythos. Realistically any Shiva focused project seems difficult for the aforementioned, what other anons have posted in this thread about martial arts and dragon lady, and also arguably her not being a popular enough character. Your best bet is perhaps a project centred on The Question that features Lady Shiva as a prominent character.
I am not saying it is a good idea or not but, if we are discussing pitches that I could actually see getting greenlit: basically think John Wick but, with martial arts instead of guns and Lady Shiva in place of Wick.
I’ve already done this in other threads, so if you have an idea for a drawing of Shiva, tell me.
Shiva striking her best pose for a movie poster.
A portrait type image of Shiva with Carolyn, her disaster of a sister whom she loves more than anything anyway.
Shiva in Mai Shirainui's costume
ugmo