Leia being Luke's sister was the only flaw of ROTJ
otherwise it's pure kino
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Leia being Luke's sister was the only flaw of ROTJ. otherwise it's pure kino
Leia being Luke's sister was the only flaw of ROTJ
otherwise it's pure kino
CRIME Shirt $21.68 |
|
CRIME Shirt $21.68 |
what exactly was their plan to rescue Han? I have watched that film a dozen times and I still can't figure it out.
Do you not think the empire being defeated by teddy bears makes them and the rebellion both seem weak and pathetic?
Personally I enjoy the film but I understand the criticism.
i am still unsure if leia and luke coordinated their actions or moved independently of each other. any detail I fail to remember off the cuff?
Luke deliberately had Leia sent in first knowing that she would be captured and placed in that gold bikini, giving him the erection he needed to guarantee that he would be at full power to defeat Jabba's forces.
i think the ewoks taking on the empire isn't a bad idea in a vacuum, but it's pretty poorly executed in the film with how goofy and slapstick it is. it could be pretty interesting if the planet was a lot more inhospitable and the ewoks taught the rebels the safe paths through the forest or something so they could incorporate it into their plan.
>their plan to rescue Han
At that moment General and war hero Solo has a literal army supporting him. Realistically the castle of Jabba would have been razed to the ground.
Again, Han isn't established to be an official part of the Rebellion in ESB, which is why him being a General all of a sudden in RotJ is so strange
The Hutts are also a powerful crime syndicate and the Rebellion wouldn't be immune from reprisals. Even Sheev and Vader at least valued being on the Hutts' good side enough to let them still rule their own fiefdoms in the galaxy
Jabbas palace is cool, but it wastes way too much of the runtime on establishing Luke as a Jedi master, and rescuing Han. The first goal is important to see the growth of Luke from ESB, but the second is almost worthless as Han has nothing to do. And then we have the Battle of Endor which is equal parts goofy and dramatic like the Battle of Naboo and has the same improper tone shifts which make it jarring since we continue to cut back to the meat of the narrative which is Luke confronting Vader and the Emperor. Cutting down the goofiness of Endor, replacing the Ewoks with Wookiees, and letting Han stay dead would have better served the story. Jabbas palace could have held a secret to the second Death Star or something if you wanted to include it still.
>Jabbas palace could have held a secret to the second Death Star or something if you wanted to include it still.
literally EU tier bullshit
Well it could have been avoided entirely is what I was initially driving at and should have been since the whole 30-40 minute sequence only accomplishes the fact that Luke is stronger now and Han is back. The latter is practically worthless to the rest of the story, the former is important but you could make any sequence to showcase Luke’s new level of mastery.
>Han has nothing to do.
this is a fricking RLM meme. or possibly a harrison ford meme because he clearly had to cope with not being the MC. han solo blows up the shield generator that enables the defeat of the imperium. just because he didn't personally murder vader doesn't mean he had nothing to do
His job is arguably more important that luke, that accomplishes frick all
it clears the way for lando who would have killed vader and emps (ignoring the stupid sequels).
Han and Leia have no growth, conflict, or emotional stakes in RotJ. The entire shield generator subplot is just a macguffin plot so they can be given *something* to do because they're otherwise irrelevant to everything that's happening in the movie after Jabba's Palace
well, define macguffin. or more precisely: why should they have anything more than that? they are supporting cast for the remaining stretch, a wise decision by lucas because what we got with the triangle of luke, vader and palpatine is legendary. peak star wars. the purpose of their scenes is to show how THEY fare during the war and if and how they survive it. they don't need no growth or deep emotional conflict: we already care about their survival anyway. that's enough to create tension.
ofc the RLM brainlets will never get that.
>why should they have anything more than that?
Because it would make the movie more interesting.
no, it would detract from the clear main plot which is fantastic. lucas correctly emphasizes luke's arc here. frick han and leia. and frick RLMdrones.
now tell me why Hayden being shoved into the movie is actually genius and you're just a redditlettermemeia drone for not liking that troony Nsync reject
i can't tell ya. i have refused to watch the prequels all along and i think this insert is moronic. the only way, and the much-maligned youtube reaction videos are very instrumental in demonstrating that, the christensen insert makes sense is if you don't watch in release order. but not watching in release order is in turn moronic because only watching in release order makes vader turning seem like a preposterous, far-fetched thought, right?
so for me, it's despecialized edition all the way. why anyone wouldn't want to watch star wars the way it was originally released, the way it made it a global phenomenon, is beyond me tbqh.
Are you moronic? Screen time is still dedicated to Leia, Han, and the events of Endor. Screen time is also dedicated to Lando and the rest of the Rebellion in space. Putting this screen time to better use with a better story wouldn't "detract" from what happens with Luke.
that screentime is about the war and the progression of it.
i disagree. ultimately, star wars is about the change of generations, as depicted in the final shots of ROTJ. han and leia had no connection to the previous generation set up, so there was nothing meaningful you could do with them to reinforce the OT's message.
and to recap, the OT'S message was: the world is fricked, the previous generations didn't get it done, now it's up to you, guys. there are some old people you should listen to yet sometimestheir advice you must disregard (that's the nuanced beauty of ROTJ, btw, in contract to simple-minded "listen to your elders" ESB) and some who are bad but can be saved and some who are redemption.
if I am right about the OT in that regard, and I am very sure I am, where do han and leia fit into that?
to me the drama in ROTJ is a masterpiece, it has an actual message beyond the surface level and isn't just a movie for children as some trolls claim. and that's why I can overlook any of its flaws. ewoks, comical boba death, no han and leia arc, etc.
RLM lauds ESB, I laud ROTJ
>RLM lauds ESB, I laud ROTJ
The best film is the original, though.
well, i am approaching the OT on the question of substance. star wars (i wont call it a new hope, that's moronic) was a fun romp but what message does it really have? ESB was excellently executed and very entertaining. but again, what is the message? you should listen to your elders?? ROTJ, as outlined, comes with depth and nuance. vader's conflict, obi-wan's error, luke's willingness to go all the way for the sake of his father, that shit gets to me.
>to simple-minded "listen to your elders" ESB
I don't think it's really that simple minded, since TESB illustrates why Luke should heed their warnings well before Luke's temptation to go (Yoda even spells it out, lest the audience forget). The content of the lesson is the theme.
yes but contrast that with ROTJ where Obi-Wan tells Luke it's hopeless and Yoda at least SEEMS to imply this. but Luke goes his own way and turns out to be right and I think if you combine that with ESB where his elders were right, it's absolutely fantastic. it's genious in what Lucas is trying to impart the kids growing up. and the message is timeless, not subject to fashions. it will hold true a 100 or a 1000 years from now. at the end, the old guard is gone while the next generation is shaping a better future the old guard smiling upon them, at least the better ones of them.
>well, define macguffin. or more precisely: why should they have anything more than that?
Because I love Han Solo and Princess Leia as much as I love Luke and I think it's a shame that they're a sideshow in the finale of the trilogy?
Frick, just cut the Endor shit and have Han and Leia leading the fleet. Lando and Wedge aren't important enough to get an entire subplot to themselves lmao
>Because I love Han Solo and Princess Leia as much as I love Luke and I think it's a shame that they're a sideshow in the finale of the trilogy?
do you realize how hard it is to write one magnificent arc like the one that luke got? and you're asking for MORE than that? do you ask the same from other great tragedies in literature? see, i am grateful what we got. luke not giving up on his father, even after he had just passed away, it's fricking magnificent. him going to the pits of hell if necessary to save him, that's all i need. and that's why I say: frick han and leia, even though I love them too. if they needed an arc, it would have required a fourth movie.
Yes, after two films of all three characters being given equal weight and having meaningful development I would have liked for the third film to follow suit, especially when Return of the Jedi is padded to hell and doesn't make good usage of its own runtime
honestly I think in ESB Han & Leia are already an afterthought so you would have to change that to make a proper ending in ROTJ
Han & Leia are only an afterthought if you think the Jedi stuff is the ONLY thing that matters. Han and Leia have their own arc and character work, they have meaningful conversations and they learn things about themselves and each other, in RotJ they have NOTHING
>Han stay dead
no, they should have written something better and tell Harrison Ford to do his fricking job and shut up. He could have grown into a general and take more of a hard ass commanding position, completing his arc from immoral smuggler to War Hero.
you think he's not a war hero at the end of ROTJ? granted, it was chewie that performed the game winning move when he captured the AT-ST but it was han who (laughably) tricked the imperium out of the bunker.
Not really no, he's still just running around shooting people and cracking jokes, not that there's anything wrong with that, but if they wanted to give him something to do they could have matured him a bit. In ESB he's "Captain Solo", he could prove himself a general in this. Imagine an older hard ass General Solo commanding the grand Army of the Republic, while Luke handles the Jedi Order and Leia the Senate WHY THE FRICK WAS THAT SO HARD KATHLEEN?
>it hurts my poor widdle feefees that the OT heroes faced adversity in middle age so WRITING BAD KATHLEEN RUINED MY CHILDHOOD REEEEEE
General Solo is fricking boring, as seen in RotJ. Han is awesome in TFA even if they had to "regress" him a little bit
> Han is awesome in TFA
Chewie we're homf
Han and Leia are better in TFA than they are in RotJ by a mile. in RotJ Harrison Ford is so clearly done with the fricking movies and is just there for his paycheck, while Carrie Fisher is coked out of her mind and the script does neither of them any favors, where there's no substance to their relationship beyond "oooh they just wuv each other so much uguuu :3" and their role in the story is ultimately to just stand at a door.
Han and Leia in TFA are actually given shit to do with real dramatic weight, they have meaningful dialogue with the new cast and each other, and Han is pivotal to the climax in a way he absolutely isn't in RotJ.
t. prequelzoomer
>t. prequelzoomer
I don't like the prequels. Frick you.
what substance when the movie is ultimately about luke and about overthrowing the empire?
> given shit to do with real dramatic weight, they have meaningful dialogue
they did have a purpose in ROTJ, everything else is a lie. they were a sideshow, THAT much is true. i have zero issue with that. all the focus lies on luke's story, as it should do. their arc should not divert attention from that.
You have to be 18 to post on this site.
There's a difference between adversity and just failing at absolutely everything they did in the first three movies.
The entire post-war western liberal order is collapsing before our eyes, authoritarians and fascists are the most powerful they've been since the end of World War II, and the grand enemy of the second half of the 20th century has returned to threaten the West once again.
It kind of feels like the boomers ultimately failed despite their idealism, doesn't it? Star Wars isn't a hugbox that tells you nothing bad is going to happen to you ever
>authoritarians and fascists are the most powerful they've been since the end of World War II
Democrats?
>grand enemy of the second half of the 20th century
America?
>Democrats
Star wars is a boomer liberal fantasy, George Lucas fricking hates Republicans and when the prequels came out he was doing interviews where he would flat-out verbatim say BUSH IS VADER AND CHENEY IS THE EMPEROR
>America?
I was referring to Russia but yeah death to america too lol
At the current point in history Russia is literally the hero.
>fascists are the most powerful they've been since the end of World War II
Name one.
Zelensky in Ukraine.
But anon they're the good guys.
>ukraine
>good guys
yes, if you're an american or european who wants to keep your rivals in russia down. then ukraine is 'good'.
>the second half of the 20th century has returned to threaten the West once again.
no, it hasn't, you frickign moron. communism is largely dead and buried and the USA instead tries to surround one of its rival nations with client states, which that rival won't allow. and because of that the US and NATO throws a frickign hissy fit because it won't get it their way.
if you're equating Putin with the Soviet general secretaries, you're a moron. in fact, your doing so indicates that it was never abotu freedom for the US to begin with. it was always about takign a piss on a rival. america no. 1 my ass.
>NOOOOO EUROPEAN COUNTRIES CAN'T JOIN A PACT FOR MUTUAL DEFENSE BY THEIR OWN FREE WILL NOOOOOYOU JUST *HAVE* TO LET PUTIN RESORE THE BORDERS OF THE OLD TSARIST EMPIRE NOOOOOOOOOO
EUROPEAN COUNTRIES CAN'T JOIN A PACT FOR MUTUAL DEFENSE BY THEIR OWN FREE WILL
as it turns ou, they can't. russia is in the process of mobilizing and then erasing ukraine statehood and nothing short of ww3 will stop that. something which the west is clearly not willing to go to. after syria, the west for the second time leaves an oppressed AND DEVASTATED country by encoruaging mindless rebellion irresspective of balance of power. very callously so because it's not their sons and husbands which will die a futile death.
>dude just give up and let territorial aggressors take your homeland without a fight lol it's hopeless XD
ok vlad
yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. it's lik trying to encourage the Palestinians to never give up hope on driving the Israelis back into the sea and reclaiming the entirely of Palestine. Or encourgaging Syrians to never give up on the Golan heights.
it would be like encoruaging Germans to not give up on Hitler's dreams and trying to conquer Russia over and over again.
some objectives are futile and to encourage someone to join a fight THEY HAVE NO CHANCE OF WINNING is callous and disgusting. if you feel differently about ukraine, feel free to get a gun and join their mercenary contingents. ah, your sense of freedom isn't THAT strong, amirite? you're disgusting.
no, that was necessary to trigger luke into a rage. nothing else would have been believable.
Shaw looked cooler as Vader in BTS photos. Looks stern and low bf, unlike in the actual movie. The later editions edit where they remove the eyebrows makes it look even him.
They're not trying to make Vader look "cool", the point is that behind the facade of evil and power is nothing but a weak, tired old man
Lmaoing at vader getting btfo
Not canon.
holy cope
Not Lucas, not canon.
>But muh filming rights
Eat a dick mousecuck
That doesn't go far enough.
By that logic The Clone Wars is canon. Frick that.
Not OT, not canon.
Why the frick Vader did absolutely nothing to protect his chest control panel from Obi-Wan's hitting. Did he want do die?
Yes
Who cares? Its not canon.
hitting him in the chest panel stuns him n00b
That camera shaking is figurativelly and literally puke-inducing
>standing there watching Pedobi hammer your chest
why
Oni Wan should be dead the moment he started the hilt blows what the frick
>can impale Vader
>hits him with the fricking hilt instead
this is why Star Wars can't be good again
Did it so Han could get the girl drama free. When I was younger I thought Luke was being cucked in Empire. Left a bad taste in my mouth.
The second death star is a bigger flaw
My biggest problem with the Leia thing is that her agency as a character is completely ignored. One would think being Vader's daughter would have some kind of impact on her, but it doesn't really. It makes it all the more obvious that it was thrown into the film to resolve Yoda's line in Empire and for no other purpose. Leia and Han are both done a disservice. The direction is also flat and dull for the vast majority of the film. It's not as bad as AotC or RotS but it's not much to look at beyond the space battle. I like RotJ a lot, but it has a lot of flaws.
>One would think being Vader's daughter would have some kind of impact on her, but it doesn't really.
i absolutely disagree. leia is a highly pragmatic person and at the eve of battle, she would push everything else aside and focus on what the next day might bring. after the battle, that's when we briefly see her lost in thought.
The point isn't the timing. It's that it introduces something for transparent plot expediency and leaves everything compelling about it unaddressed. It's just there, and the audience's only sensible response is to make the same baffled expression Han does (Ford can't believe this horseshit either) and shrug. It's weightless. Obi-Wan's dialogue with Luke has a similar problem with misplaced priority.
yes, i agree. it stretches credulity. but i can forgive it because it sets up luke into a rage and for a moment, for a brief moment, the audience is a bit unsure where this is gonna go. i mean HOW ELSE are you gonna tease the audience into believing that goody two-shoes luke could possibly fall for the dark side?
but i think he's better suited for mission critical than being admiral ackbar. so what people are saying isn't that he's nothing to do, they heard that on RLM, what they really mean is he doesn't grow as a character. that's fair enough. but then again he is not the MC.
>and for no other purpose
It makes the ESB kiss one of the funniest moments in the series.
yeah, ROTJ is the beginning of the end. Jabba's palace at least is very entertaining and we can finally see Luke kicking ass as a Jedi but everything on endor fricking sucks. Not just for the Ewoks but because Han and Leia have almost nothing to do.
The Luke/Vader/Sheev highs make up for endor
this. every scene with luke from the moment he meets leia outside is peak star wars
Endor isnt even bad.
People need to get off the ewoks meme.
its the whole thing, its empty, there's nothing to enjoy there other than the speeder chase.
Nah, is shit. The Ewoks were a preview of the real George Lucas mindset that we regretfully we have discovered over the years.
Endor is fine other than Warwick not exploding
It does, but like almost everything in Star Wars, it could have been so much more.
Originally Luke was going to find his sister in part 3. Also he meets his dad in Jedi ghost form in TESB.
I remember being a kid and crying over the scene in the op as it played on the tv, and my dad got angry at me because of it and kept on calling me a pussy. Good times
Yea but then we'd have been robber of this line. I love the way he says it. Classic. Sisssterr.
We'd might've still have the line, the search for Luke's sister was part of the plot leading into Lucas' original six part series with the confrontation with the Emperor being the climax of ep IX, but Lucas was tired after ESB so RotJ was hacked together with Leia being Luke's sister.
Lucas made up shit as he went along for the most part except for Vader turning into half a robot due to Obi Wan kicking his ass in a lava planet.
I don't deny he was making shit up as he went, but there was a time when the plan was for Luke having a lost sister and that sister wasn't Leia.
>Lucas made up shit as he went along for the most part
this is what ultimately ruins the entire lore for me, I can't take seriously any of this shit if it was all made up on the spot
Reminder, Lucas originally had Han as Luke's brother, but got butthurt during the filming of rotj when everyone predicted that twist so he changed it last minute.
Reminder that all of Lucas' original plans were shit. That's why the prequels turned out so hideous.
reminder that Lucas input in ROTJ was fantastic and it made it the great movie that it is, while the suggestions of the others were largely dumb. too bad he had lost his mojo with the prequels.
How do you explain that without Anakin being a manprostitute?
>implying he isnt
Almost every scene on Endor is the flaw of RotJ. Actually, remove every scene on Endor after Luke goes to the Death Star and that would be a huge improvement.
Lando was more important that Han in RotJ.
without chewie and han, lando would have had nowhere to go
the original name was neelie I think
There was also no reason for a war hero and a high officer of the rebelion to do an very dangerous infiltration grunt job in Endor
Making him a "General" was always stupid. Han should have been a special forces type-operator that exists outside of the Rebel's chain of command, and that's basically what he is for the entire OT anyways.
Was Han even ever officially part of the Rebellion? They call him "Captain" Solo in ESB but I always thought that was because he was Captain of the Falcon, not because he was a commissioned officer in the Alliance to Restore the Republic. General Rieekan just lets him leave, and that's not something he'd really be allowed to do had he sworn an actual oath
>Making him a "General" was always stupid
Not as stupid as Lando being one too
General or not general he is still a war hero. Not the person you send to a dangerous job. Is even more the case for 'princess' Leia, one of the most important figures in the rebelion
Han Solo is a smuggler and a fighter, a natural leader, he's exactly the type of person you'd WANT on the front lines leading men under fire.
I can understand why they wouldn't want Leia on the front lines, but with Alderaan and the Senate both gone she doesn't have the same political importance she once did.
>smuggler and a fighter, a natural leader, he's exactly the type of person you'd WANT on the front lines leading men under fire.
Bullshit, what you want is fricking special forces trained for this crap, not a charismatic leader or whatever. Even if he was the best for the job he is still one of the biggest faces of the rebellion. Him or Leia dying impaled by a tedy bear is the kind of advertisement you want to avoid in order to keep morale high.
Their capture would also give the empire inmense leverage in negotiations or demoralizing power.
>I AM YOUR FATHEROOOOOOOO
Needs better acting. Also the original trilogy is the only good star wars. The rest is not star wars is you all know it.
ewoks are fun when you're 6, after that they just ruin the whole movie,
The Leia slave outfit shouldn't have been in a kid's movie. If I had children (lol) I would only let them watch the original film honestly.
Death Star 2 is dumb. Should have been something else.