I refused to watch this one. If people knew what the alternative to the nukes were. A mainland invasion of Japan would cost ALOT more lives. On both sides. On Okinawa the women and children we’re jumping off of cliffs to avoid being captured. Would these motherfrickers really have preferred that happen all across japan?
That's the stock justification. However, even assuming it was true, there's a huge difference between killing civilians to soldiers. The bombing were 100% a war crime justified after the fact. If it had happened to America, we wouldn't be watching a film trying to portray these people as humane or misunderstood.
The Japanese were mobilizing civilians to protect the home islands, the same way they did in Okinawa. American war planners, considering the war in Germany had ended, were heavily concerned with saving more lives on their side for what was already a foregone conclusion that the insane people left running the Japanese government could not accept.
Another thing I forgot to add, the Soviets declared war on the Japanese and invaded Manchuria a week or two before the decision to drops the A-bombs was made. This led to essentially the beginning of the Cold War domino theory, that giving the USSR a foothold in Asia, specifically Japan, would be geopolitically devastating after the war.
I have, the movie barely goes into the justifications beyond a few meetings that Oppenheimer was himself privy too because the film is from his perspective. I read through primary source documentation of the correspondence between Stimson and other top advisors when I was in grad school.
The movie isn't about whether the USA was right or wrong to use nuclear weapons. It's about what using them means, not just for Japan and the USA but for the world
Given they only had two bombs, it's kind of difficult to imagine what else they should've done. They could detonate off shore as a demonstration of the power, but then the Japanese government could easily brush it off, they would be back to square one and have wasted their only bombs until 1946. The overstep was Nagasaki, that city need not necessarily have been bombed, and they only gave them three days, one of which was lost to figuring out what had happened in Hiroshima. The US should've waited at least a couple of weeks to allow Japan to assess the result of the bombing. That said, even after two bombings there was a coup that almost prevented surrender.
In a total war, targeting civilians is not a war crime. Total war means you are at war in an existential conflict with the entire enemy society. Every one of those civilians was, in that type of conflict, part of the enemy war machine. The Axis did the exact same thing and would dropped a hundred nukes on us if they could.
And if the blockade plan gained favor the same people would be going on about warcrimes. Its a lose-lose situation because no one wants to admit the Japanese military backed themselves into a corner
Japan was likely going to surrender anyway. They didn’t need an invasion, a sustained bombing campaign plus soviet internet would have done it.
The bomb was dropped to try and scare the soviets, which didn’t work because Oppy’s commie buddies were leaking everything to the USSR.
Oppenheimer didn’t feel he gave the world an early end to WW2. He just felt he gave it the means to destroy itself by arming two sides with a doomsday weapon
>Sir, about that project you were working on? >You mean Project Giga-ultra-mega-super-mecha Atomic Landrazer Firebomber Hiroshima-Heatbringer Nagasaki-Necronizer, Slayer of Millions of Innocent Japs? >Yeah, that one... >What about it? >It was used for...killing
my favorite part about this image being used to question the bomb itself is that when this occurs during the movie it's cause he just found out he lost his best eater
They didn't really believe they were invincible, they just were so philosophically opposed to surrender that the only acceptable alternative to victory was death, so they might as well fight on. One of Hirohito's top ministers even responded to the Hiroshima bombing by suggesting they should just let the allies glass the whole country rather than capitulate to them, and he soon after seppuku'd upon agreeing to back the emperor's surrender plan.
>One of Hirohito's top ministers even responded to the Hiroshima bombing by suggesting they should just let the allies glass the whole country rather than capitulate to them
That's metal as frick, but that dude was a coward because he knew no matter what happened, he would never see a day of fighting in the lines.
Top brass making those kinds of calls is always unjustified.
This was part of it, but they were also banking on the possibility that the invasion would turn into such a bloody clusterfrick that the US would agree to a conditional surrender or armistice that would allow the emperor to stay in power and the home islands to avoid occupation.
It’s funny how America gets the blame for the bomb when the only reason it went that far was Japan being a psycho cult.
Any rational nation would have surrendered once the Allies had the ability to regularly bomb the mainland. Or even before that. America was faced with either continued warfare, killing hundreds of thousands of their own citizens given the casualty projections for an invasion, or using the bomb. You can’t reasonably expect a country to choose the path that gets a lot of their people killed, in a war they didn’t start.
Fair, but a very different situation. Germany could hit the UK but not at the same scale and the UK was not cut off, they had a whole world of colonies to call upon for men, material and an emergency fallback point for the government if the home islands were invaded.
Japan had none of that. By 1945 their overseas possessions were either lost, being fought over or were cut off by sea or air. America could hit Japan at will and Japan had no hope of relief. Their only plays were surrender or throwing their people into the meat grinder, and people get pissy at the Allies because the Japanese preferred the meat grinder.
The imperial death cult meme was only ever really strong in the military. It was somewhat strong with civilians for a while but understandably became rapidly unpopular as the war dragged on and the US started the firebombings. By the time of the nukes the central government didn't have a lot of confidence in the blind loyalty of the population, and even large segments of the military were becoming disillusioned with the ideology and open to a ceasefire. When a few young hardliners tried to whip up a coup at the 11th hour it was practically dead on arrival, they couldn't get anyone to join their cause.
this movie would have been interesting if it explored the idea of israelites killing hundreds of thousands of Japanese since they were responsible for the bomb.
I didn't see this one
>big bomb a bad bam boom
I AM BECOME DEAD
peaky fricking blinder
>my bomb was used on.... NON WHITES?!?!
I refused to watch this one. If people knew what the alternative to the nukes were. A mainland invasion of Japan would cost ALOT more lives. On both sides. On Okinawa the women and children we’re jumping off of cliffs to avoid being captured. Would these motherfrickers really have preferred that happen all across japan?
they say exactly this in the movie
That's the stock justification. However, even assuming it was true, there's a huge difference between killing civilians to soldiers. The bombing were 100% a war crime justified after the fact. If it had happened to America, we wouldn't be watching a film trying to portray these people as humane or misunderstood.
The Japanese were mobilizing civilians to protect the home islands, the same way they did in Okinawa. American war planners, considering the war in Germany had ended, were heavily concerned with saving more lives on their side for what was already a foregone conclusion that the insane people left running the Japanese government could not accept.
Another thing I forgot to add, the Soviets declared war on the Japanese and invaded Manchuria a week or two before the decision to drops the A-bombs was made. This led to essentially the beginning of the Cold War domino theory, that giving the USSR a foothold in Asia, specifically Japan, would be geopolitically devastating after the war.
You should watch the movie. You might learn something
I have, the movie barely goes into the justifications beyond a few meetings that Oppenheimer was himself privy too because the film is from his perspective. I read through primary source documentation of the correspondence between Stimson and other top advisors when I was in grad school.
The movie isn't about whether the USA was right or wrong to use nuclear weapons. It's about what using them means, not just for Japan and the USA but for the world
Given they only had two bombs, it's kind of difficult to imagine what else they should've done. They could detonate off shore as a demonstration of the power, but then the Japanese government could easily brush it off, they would be back to square one and have wasted their only bombs until 1946. The overstep was Nagasaki, that city need not necessarily have been bombed, and they only gave them three days, one of which was lost to figuring out what had happened in Hiroshima. The US should've waited at least a couple of weeks to allow Japan to assess the result of the bombing. That said, even after two bombings there was a coup that almost prevented surrender.
In a total war, targeting civilians is not a war crime. Total war means you are at war in an existential conflict with the entire enemy society. Every one of those civilians was, in that type of conflict, part of the enemy war machine. The Axis did the exact same thing and would dropped a hundred nukes on us if they could.
>even assuming it was true
Go frick yourself. There's video evidence of it happening.
And if the blockade plan gained favor the same people would be going on about warcrimes. Its a lose-lose situation because no one wants to admit the Japanese military backed themselves into a corner
exactly the point of the movie m8
watch it
it's great
No it wasn't, it was just israeli pseudohistory
Japan was likely going to surrender anyway. They didn’t need an invasion, a sustained bombing campaign plus soviet internet would have done it.
The bomb was dropped to try and scare the soviets, which didn’t work because Oppy’s commie buddies were leaking everything to the USSR.
Oppenheimer didn’t feel he gave the world an early end to WW2. He just felt he gave it the means to destroy itself by arming two sides with a doomsday weapon
>Japan was likely going to surrender anyway.
No, they weren't.
lel, japan was already defeated, bombs were not dropped for japan, they were dropped for the soviet union and china
Of all the shitposts on Cinemaphile, these are some of my favourites.
>My le bomb... it... le killed people?
>Well, I wouldn't exactly call them people.
>It was a dud?
>The Enola WHAT!?
The Enola Nonbinary Demisexual BIPOC
>Sir, about that project you were working on?
>You mean Project Giga-ultra-mega-super-mecha Atomic Landrazer Firebomber Hiroshima-Heatbringer Nagasaki-Necronizer, Slayer of Millions of Innocent Japs?
>Yeah, that one...
>What about it?
>It was used for...killing
my favorite part about this image being used to question the bomb itself is that when this occurs during the movie it's cause he just found out he lost his best eater
Japan was an actual cult at the time. They believed they were unbeatable.
They knew they were beatable that's why they tried to kill the fleet in the cradle.
They didn't really believe they were invincible, they just were so philosophically opposed to surrender that the only acceptable alternative to victory was death, so they might as well fight on. One of Hirohito's top ministers even responded to the Hiroshima bombing by suggesting they should just let the allies glass the whole country rather than capitulate to them, and he soon after seppuku'd upon agreeing to back the emperor's surrender plan.
Looking at Japan now he was totally right.
>One of Hirohito's top ministers even responded to the Hiroshima bombing by suggesting they should just let the allies glass the whole country rather than capitulate to them
That's metal as frick, but that dude was a coward because he knew no matter what happened, he would never see a day of fighting in the lines.
Top brass making those kinds of calls is always unjustified.
This was part of it, but they were also banking on the possibility that the invasion would turn into such a bloody clusterfrick that the US would agree to a conditional surrender or armistice that would allow the emperor to stay in power and the home islands to avoid occupation.
Does this look like a Jap board, b***h boy? Ask 2chan
We would've never gotten anime if Oppie didn't drop the fat nukes
Think about that
It’s funny how America gets the blame for the bomb when the only reason it went that far was Japan being a psycho cult.
Any rational nation would have surrendered once the Allies had the ability to regularly bomb the mainland. Or even before that. America was faced with either continued warfare, killing hundreds of thousands of their own citizens given the casualty projections for an invasion, or using the bomb. You can’t reasonably expect a country to choose the path that gets a lot of their people killed, in a war they didn’t start.
>Any rational nation would have surrendered once the Allies had the ability to regularly bomb the mainland.
The UK didn't.
Fair, but a very different situation. Germany could hit the UK but not at the same scale and the UK was not cut off, they had a whole world of colonies to call upon for men, material and an emergency fallback point for the government if the home islands were invaded.
Japan had none of that. By 1945 their overseas possessions were either lost, being fought over or were cut off by sea or air. America could hit Japan at will and Japan had no hope of relief. Their only plays were surrender or throwing their people into the meat grinder, and people get pissy at the Allies because the Japanese preferred the meat grinder.
The entire Blitz campaign killed as many people as half of one single firebombing raid on Japan.
The US military is still awarding Purple Hearts that were originally made during WW2 with the projections for an invasion in mind.
The imperial death cult meme was only ever really strong in the military. It was somewhat strong with civilians for a while but understandably became rapidly unpopular as the war dragged on and the US started the firebombings. By the time of the nukes the central government didn't have a lot of confidence in the blind loyalty of the population, and even large segments of the military were becoming disillusioned with the ideology and open to a ceasefire. When a few young hardliners tried to whip up a coup at the 11th hour it was practically dead on arrival, they couldn't get anyone to join their cause.
The israelites were and are still seething
the bomb wasn’t used to kill white people
>Dropping israeli bombs on civilians means America fought harder
this movie would have been interesting if it explored the idea of israelites killing hundreds of thousands of Japanese since they were responsible for the bomb.
>if the Japanese wanted to avoid being bombed by nonexistent technology 4 years later why did they do Pearl Harbor
Hey champ, how would you feel if you didn't eat breakfast today?