>noooo I won't start a holy war because I know for a fact that literally billions of people will die and starve for no reason
>actually on second thought, I guess I will :^)
is this 180 explained better in the books? it didn't make much sense to me in the movie
He drank da wadda
The second movie is fricked compared to the books. Part 2 is a huge disappointment in comparison to part 1.
Part 2 is better than part 1.
Exposes how shit the books must be.
Its really not
I don't understand the structure of Part 2. You spend like an hour with Paul in the desert then it switches to Feyd Ratha, Bene Gesserit plotting and Emperor before coming back. You couldn't have had that stuff spliced around a bit? Build tension? The Harkonnens get shafted as villains, they end up not being interesting while Walken's Emperor is really weak and boring. End battle felt really short and no Spacing Guild. I feel like Part 1 needed to set up some more of this stuff. There is a reason Lynch's Dune starts with the Emperor and the Spacing Guild even if that scene isn't in the books.
It largely plays out the same as the book. Nobody believes Paul survived and the Emporer shows up in the last 2 chapters knowing there's no way he can solve the situation but Feyd getting a shock victory. The Spacing Guild is just kinda there because they can't make a move with Paul aiming dozens of nukes at the spice fields. They're develop in later books.
The first Dune book is good but it's relatively simple.
he doesn't aim nukes at the spice fields, he threatens to pour water of life on the spice fields which would cause a chain reaction that would frick up spice production on arrakis.
Yep. Part 1 is a trance. A strange masterpiece. Complex characters in a world of mixed beauty and dread, with action that had real danger and implications for them. Part 2 is lifeless action bluster with half-hearted human, topped off with a shit Chani that is psychologically implausible and permanently scowling. They made Chani the main character more or less, and I speculate that doing that forced them to make Stilgar and Jessica — two complex, fascinating characters in Part 1 — into one-note caricatures. Beyond the screenplay itself, the direction seems less inspired. Part 1 felt like Villeneuve's personal vision, with direction, editing and sound editing conveying character psychology. We are close to Paul's (and sometimes Jessica's) perspective throughout all of Part 1, but for some reason they ditched that in Part 2. That, combined with the total lack of chemistry between Paul and Chani, contribute to a completely unconvincing love story and completely unconvincing turns toward "villainy" for Paul and Jessica. After the strange euphoric vision of Part 1, Part 2 was a major disappointment.
He ran out of options and realised it wouldd happen no matter what. Later he just tries to mitigate the damage.
>Later he just tries to mitigate the damage.
This is what happens. He figures since its going to happen anyway, might as well steer the ship as well as hes able.
The choice is illusory. He was born and raised to be a weapon of war from day 1 the mother
That's such a lame explanation. He could always just an hero
It's a running theme of the tension between free will and determinism through out most of the series. The dreams and visions of the future are better handled in the books. It's more of a question of what time is instead of a choose your path thing. Denis is a philosophy-let and it shows
It would lead to worse outcome
It would just mean Feyd would take his place, didn't you watch the movie?
Um Sweaty? Yeah so, here's the thing... I actually did watch the movie and ummmmm in the movie? Yeah so in the movie Feyd died. Sooo.......
He sees the future where he dies and his mother and sister lead the jihad instead. Movie left a lot of details out.
no if he did his mom and sister would run it and he'd be a martyr whose name can be used for anything and he'd have no say in it. It would be worse. At least if he lives he has some control. By the time he's certain of what awaits it's too late.
Once his prescience gets levelled up by his spice overdose, it becomes fairly obvious to him that a mass jihad and the death of billions is, ALL things considered, the least harmful course of action.
isn’t it either that or all of humanity goes extinct? doesn’t really seem like a choice lol
the long con in the books was avoiding human extinction, which could only happen under a repressive dictatorship for hundreds of thousands of years
Why are humans gunna go extinct?
No one knows as Frank didn't finish the series, but book 4 states that one way it happened was thinking machines from Ix, i.e. AI. However this path was prevented even during book 4, and 5+6 are thousands years later.
It seems that the danger may have been super Face Dancers that essentially steal and absorb everything from humans
I think implicitly the Ixian thinking machines inevitably develop prescience (inevitable, Leto merely postpones it or slows it down until he has enough time to do his thing) and naturally they exterminate humans through superiority.
So Leto guides human evolution towards a form that is immune to prescient understanding.
same way are now, feminism
>Why are humans gunna go extinct?
The hunter-seeker was a deadly tool used by assassins. The tiny floating tadpole-like machine was remotely controlled by an operator situated close by.
In 1981's God Emperor of Dune, Leto II Atreides can see through his prescience that his Golden Path has prevented the Ixians from being the cause of humanity's destruction in the future. Leto's Golden Path has prevented a future in which the Ixians released, and ultimately lost control of, self improving Hunter-Seekers that would eventually consume all organic life in the known universe.
space israelites bring space feminism to all other planets and convince women that filling out excel sheets every day is more fulfilling and empowering than having children
i was rooting for Paul and completely on board with his holy war.
i guess i am one of those people accused of misunderstanding the movie for "wrong reasons" like fight club and 500 days of summer
Yup. You got the brain dumb.
Everyone is supposed to think that way.
The entire point of messiah is to show the results of that belief.
Vileneuve said Messiah was written because frank was assmad that Dune was misinterpreted, and that his original intention was to make it clear from Dune that it's a cautionary tale. So the film makes it more obvious to honor frank herbert's intention.
I don’t believe this at all. We all know he’s a woke homosexual and just trying to justify it
He doesn't try to hide it. He's an open outspoken feminist and all of his films have feminist undertones.
>He's an outspoken feminist
So was Leto III
And this is why 2049 pissed off the usual suspects, amrite?
moron.
1/2
It's true that there's a slight gay element to this but when I think of Denis' work (and I actually think he's overrated as frick), that feminine angle isn't particularly poisoned through a moronic r/twoxchromosomes lens, but more through a love for his mother. The women are motherly strong and aged a little, not super empowered moronic man-hating dykes. If I were to pen a love letter through film to my own mother I could imagine being driven by the same kind of feelings, and any healthy white man should at least, in some way, be driven thanks to a love for his mother. Having that in your art isn't too bad a thing.
So he's a feminist?
>durrr he just loves his mother it's not le feminism
/r/twox, tumblr, etc. isn't feminism, it's reactionary internet shittery. You're describing 60s/70s 2nd wave feminism
Yeah exactly he seems to be more about that former discipline and not the latter nonsense, which is much more acceptable and closer to what art should be. Like I said, anyone who has any kind of fondness for their mother should have a slight willingness to appreciate and advance her interests.
Herbert too had a highly educated mother that drove him to excellence.
if you aim for mediocrity, feelings of the home life as the highest virtue, domesticated men and what would neetzsche call the last man
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_man
tl;dr: villenueve is hack and his worldview's already promoted by the establishment so he's a mere propagandist
2/2
moron
"I don't see feminism as against men but something for women" yeah that means it's against men by the nature of it. What a fricking moron.
What kind of moronic viewpoint is this? It's not a zero sum game. You're acting like men and women are pitted against each other lol
>What kind of moronic viewpoint is this? It's not a zero sum game. You're acting like men and women are pitted against each other lol
the current day world is all the evidence needed to refute your stupidity.
>it's a culture war because.... le CULTURE WAR >:(
Go back to your containment board
>Go back to your containment board
gee provable outcomes that more women in education results in boys not getting better grades due to female biased female teachers, fewer men going to college than ever before, more c**ts being given roles they are neither suited for or competent for, more men checking out of society entirely due to a c**t centered world.
Feminism is a female supremacy movement that men should not tolerate.
>words words words
Didn't read
that's fine holes, i know reading is difficult for the female brain.
moron
>Bad things happen to women in his movies so they're anti-feminist
Dangerously low media literacy levels going on right now.
Sicario was the most anti-feminist movie I've ever seen
Paul became an butthole at the end.
How?
>betrays Chani
>believes he's the messiah
>billions must die
>betrays Chani
No, he doesn't give a shit about the princess and only fricks Chani.
>believes he's the messiah
He hates pretending to be god.
>billions must die
They would die with or without him.
>believes
he literally sees the future moron
bait used to be believable
>literally brainwashed by generations of bene gesserit memories injected into his mind
>thinks his actions are his own
>the movie told you directly that him becoming messiah is a scam and bad
are you stupid
Nice headcanon. Paul passed every test. Chani's tears resurrected him. He's the real deal.
Every test planted into fremen prophecy deliberately by the bene gesserit thousands of years ago yeah
But it’s the best part of the film.
Denis thinks Paul should have done nothing, resulting in the Baron making his move and ending up with Feyd Rautha on the imperial throne.
It's more fully explained in God Emperor of Dune
It isn't
Killing yourself is moronic. And even then that wouldn't stop the jihad (it's heckin inevitable!!!)
they killed his son
This, only morons spout a bunch of bullshit. He was beimg fulfilled by having a family with Chani, his son Leto II and his 2 adopted sons. But the Harkonnen found out his home and killed his kid, thats the moment he said "frick this galaxy".
When did that happen?
because it must be done to create a better future for humanity. do you not know the entire premise of the story?
I always took it as him realizing its all bullshit and trying to put a stop to it only to realize the gears have been turning, steering history towards one particular outcome decades before he was even born. At that point, the best you can do is lean in to it and try to hopefully damage control.
My interpretation from the movie (never read the books) was that drinking the Water of Life turned him into an emotionless calculating space israelite
He was always that way.
Yeah but he still had the bare essential human fears and convictions (love, aversion to death) whereas that vanished after he drank the worm piss
He was an emotionless calculating space israelite to start with.
The water gave him the ability to perceive all possible futures and the past all at once which basically turned him into a schizo automaton zombie going through the motions in the now while his attention was jumping back and forth through time
You fricking Black folk need to stop pretending to have read the fricking books.
He fricking tried to change his path during the fight but it still happened, he felt guilt about the jihad, and he even fricking gave up and died later in the books
Yeah they do everything in the books better. Chani isn't a dumb b***h, Paul acts completely different, fremen don't go flying into space ignoring the threat to nuke the spice, there's a fricking space guild which adds a whole other layer, alia is alive
the jihad is the least bad option
you pick either jihad or eventual extinction for all mankind
>humanity going extinct is... LE BAD!!! I MUST cause billions of humans to suffer...
> steals le kill millions to save le billions plot
> steals Paul's experience of time and gives it to a blue nudist
Alan Moore is a hack
Why did the Bene Gesserit tell the baron not to kill Jessica or Paul if she actually wanted them dead?
Like didn't the grand nun lady reveal that she advised the emperor to encourage the Harkonnens to attack in the first place because she wanted to end the Atreides bloodline as they'd gotten too arggoant/powerful?
Am I missing something?
bump
would also like an explanation, maybe from book gays
The book BG don't originate the plot against House Atreides, that's a moronic Villenullo invention
oh i actually knew that
would like some movie interpretation then
You can't interpret Denis's dumb inventions, they make zero sense
The Harkonnens and Atreides are related and have had their entire lineage set up clandestinely between marriages. Jessica is the Baron's daughter and Paul is his grandson. Both Feyd Rautha and Paul were both potential Kwisatz-Haderach, just as Count Fenring was last generation's failed (but still prescient and hyper aware) possible Kwisatz
in the book its completely different, paul was supposed to be a woman and was meant to have a child with feyd rathua and that was meant to be the kwisatz haderach, but jessica had a son because she loved duke leto and wanted to give him a son.
Villeneuve is a hack. Unlike Lynch, he got the option to break the book up into two movies. And what does he do? Focus on bullshit! And because he’s woke, Barren isn’t a raging psycho homo, Chani is pissed off at Paul the entire movie. Paul goes full Hitler after drinking the water. Because we got make it clear Paul no white savior
Lynch got keked from his own movie. I'd say Vileneuve is alright.
Only 2 sane posters
He sees the golden path he must set for his son and humanity to free itself from rulers and once again be free
He doesn't. People with prescience cannot see what other people with prescience will do. Paul had no way of knowing what his son would do or what his 'Golden Path' was.Paul directly tells Leto to live for himself and forget about his grand plans.
I sometimes use the Voice on my cat
The film does answer this.
1. The worm pee "woke" him up spiritually
2. He saw multiple future timelines and only a few where they didn't get completely wiped out by the other houses (Dr Strange, Avengers-style)(also attack on titan style) so realised that the holy war was necessary
he decided to stop being cringe and start being based
Women btfo
To be fair, what's to stop Paul from using the voice to control everything?
>Make me emperor.
>Then tell the other houses that you've willingly given up power
>You there, marry me and give me some kids
>And Feyd, have a nice day
>The other houses won't bow? Okay, let's set up a meeting with them...
The voice isnt quite as powerful as that. Its really only used for quick, short actions before the mind reawakens and realizes whats happening. So you cant just voice "be loyal to me forever" and make it work.
Its also why it comes as a b***h slap to the reverend mother, no one ever voiced her before, certainly not a man
Then how did Jessica use it to make the Fremen lady give Paul the worm juice since that was days (weeks? months?) before Paul arrived?
Because denis is a dimwit
She didn't, she used the voice as a show of power, since the southern fremen are superstitious and idolize the bene jesserit. She's like a moses conjuring a miracle to prove she's part of the prophecy.
Jessica is very powerful, from a religious and political perspective.
She has the power to make their old rules change.
Stilgar was also one of the first Fremen that didn't respect the law 100% : he didn't gut and recycle Paul and Jessica when they first met.
Later, Paul refused to kill Stigar even when it was the norm until then.
The Atreides line, and Kynes before them, brought change to the Fremen.
Jessica never used the voice on the lady to force her to give Paul the Water of Life. She just asked politely and leaned into her role as a religious figurehead. Are you deaf and unable to hear the sound queue when the Voice is used?
>Its also why it comes as a b***h slap to the reverend mother, no one ever voiced her before, certainly not a man
SILENCE!
>To be fair, what's to stop Paul from using guns to control everything?
>Make me emperor or I'll shoot you.
>Then tell the other houses that you've willingly given up power or I'll shoot you
>You there, marry me and give me some kids or I'll shoot you
>And Feyd, have a nice day or I'll shoot you
>The other houses won't bow? Okay, let's set up a meeting with them...so I can shoot them
Funny because that's pretty much Paul in the third act. I want a dune version of picrel.
>Hey Emperor, suck my dick or I tell all the houses of what you did.
>Princess, bring your ass over here, otherwise they won't kneel.
>The other houses won't bow? Let's set up the family atomics on their ass.
>The guild? Just threaten the spice/worm ecosystem lmao.
>Bene Gesserit? SILENCE WOMAN I'm you but stronger, and also a mentat because why the frick not. I'm playing 5D chess while being behind 7 plans within plans. Also frick you and your master plan.
Not true for Feyd, he really was formidable, but you get my point.
he's not lelouch
the voice isn't permanent
He is so bald.
He was a horrible bald child too
really loved this moment and the sound editing
I think in general watching this movie in IMAX improved the experience literally a 100 times. is it always such an improvement or does Dune just have really good sound?
What is it with imax shills around this film? I have never ever seen so much hyping over old technology. If a film is good, it is good, period. No amount of chair trembling is gonna change that.
I noticed that too.
I think anons just can't separate the two because they haven't had the time to watch the movie on tv yet.
You know a movie is great when it takes thousands of posts by people who read the source material to explain the motivations of the characters. Great job Deni
Or you could just watch the lynch movie. It's not a great adaption, but it infodumps 90% of what you need to piece the story together.
>Muh Golden Path
>Creation of anti-prescient humans through eugenics followed by an age of exploration
Doesn't sound that hard to do considering what the Bene Gesserit had already done, was killing bagillions and oppressing the rest for thousands of years really necessary?
The voices told him to do it ok.
>was killing bagillions
part of eugenics
>oppressing the rest for thousands of years
it's literally called "Leto's Peace", people had enough to eat and are free to do what they want in their villages
Looks at you like this for almost the entire movie. Zendaya ain’t going to be no concubine. Will be girl boss in the next movie and kill Paul. We all know it. How will apologist that supposedly love the books cope
A Paul vs. Chani lovers-to-enemies arc would be absolute kino though, especially if they still have feelings for each other
That didn’t take long
Explain how it wouldn't be. It's peak drama.
Messiah isn't even a story, it's like wikipedia footnotes, it has to be retconned or it won't be good, the question is what to add.
It's already incapable of being kino since the romantic part of their relationship was mediocre at best
They have zero chemistry though.
Their chemistry is fantastic tf do you mean. The other anon has a better point than you.
Paul had more chemistry with his own mother and Chani with her fremen friend than with each other. Get your eyesight checked.
Zendaya does a good job of selling it, but Chalamet mostly looks stoned out of his gourd in the romance scenes
it would be the biggest arse-pull possible. Paul has not only impregnated her, but also controls the entirety of her culture and people. The only way they could do anything kino would be if they add a massive timeskip that pits Pauls children against each other:
say they separate the twins so that in the movie Paul rules with Irulan and bears Ghanima by her, whereas Chani bears the boy who will become Leto II. Leto goes on to depose his half-sister and begin his reign as the God-Emperor and the legitimate heir to Paul with the movie hinting at his ascension to wormhood at the end and never following through as we know Denis has no interest in filming that.
She's so horny for him in the books I can safely say this mutt isn't chani at all.
Literally in the books she's like :[ u got the princess I'm jelly now. She is 100% down for Paul to be leader Chad and jihad everything. New b***h is an ugly c**t rat
Why does liking the latter preclude you from having opinions on the former?
>"It was to be a story exploring the myth of the Messiah. It was to produce another view of a human-occupied planet as an energy machine. It was to penetrate the interlocked workings of politics and economics. It was to be an examination of absolute prediction and its pitfalls. It was to have an awareness drug in it and tell what could happen through dependence on such a substance. Potable water was to be an analog for oil and for water itself, a substance whose supply diminishes each day. It was to be an ecological novel, then, with many overtones …”-Frank Herbert
>palestinian flag
every fricking time
got a problem, israelite?
This movie is literally about space Palestine BTFOing space Finland, space Italy and space Women.
Whats bad about an intergalactic jihad anyway?
From what we were shown in the film, other houses are outright evil psychos
Frank was never saying 'it was bad' it's that it leads to billions of deaths for a cycle that continues to repeat.
Every society falls into stagnation and revolt, same with the ruling society of the fremens as later books show. Paul could never have stopped the jihad, he was simply swept along by a far greater force (basically God, but the God that is personified within nature through the worm) and realized the horrors of the deaths he was about to unleash.
> he was simply swept along by a far greater force (basically God, but the God that is personified within nature through the worm)
Interesting, I didn’t get that feeling. Is it framed that way further in the books? Judging by the movie I felt this was an atheistic story.
Mostly through Leto's rambling but it was the only way for humanity to survive on a cosmic level.
In Paul personal actions as soon as he stepped into the mantle of the muadib the prophecy was fulfilled. In fighting to reclaim his household he was the trigger in something much greater.
>he was simply swept along by a far greater force (basically God
what?
Leto is Shai-Hulud
leto 2 isn't born yet prescience is just spicy avatar state, not time travel
It's not time travel? the ego-memories are pushing paul towards certain outcomes, the jihad being one.
God might not be the best word, but Herbert constantly makes shai-halud relate to Harum.
>ego-memories are pushing paul towards certain outcomes
they are ultimately as irrelevant as Paul himself was. at that point the real momentum of the jihad comes from fremen zeal, local leaders conducting war in his name believing (due to Bene Gesserit conditioning) it's what he will want
The movie makes it pretty clear
>paul has bad visions/dreams, if i go to the south it will cause the deaths of untold millions and possibly my loved ones
>is forced to retreat south anyways because the harkonens all KILL THE RATS
>drinks the water of life and gains prescience
>realizes that jihad was the only way forward to begin with
Because he's a petty psychopath who wants to take revenge on the Harkonnen and the Emperor no matter what. Even if billions die
61 billion across the entire known universe is honestly nothing
I still dont understand how a bunch of backwards tribesmen from one planet could go on to wage interplanetary conquest
They were the only warriors strong enough rival the Sardaukar and they had nukes and lazers.
Ok but thats still only 1 planet worth of manpower, disease, attrition etc should take toll on them eventually and enemies would be able to overwhelm them with numbers
Surely the noble houses and navigators guild have stockpilles of spice just in case something like this happens?
Havent read the books, but theres also something about having a monopoly on the spice that basically enables them to dictate / halt all intergalactic travel
>Surely the noble houses and navigators guild have stockpilles of spice just in case something like this happens?
they do, but they're addicts so they burn through their stockpiles faster than is reasonable.
Of course they did but the only one that really mattered was the spacing guild, as it controlled all planets trade. The trading guild was willing to bow to Paul as they couldn't risk the spice being destroyed and he basically had galaxy wide dominance from there.
The fremen are also a fighting force of 8 million of the strongest soldiers in the galaxy trained from birth to fight. They defeated the Sardukar which were the greatest warriors in the galaxy. Pre-jihad dune is a divided places and the houses were constantly at war, no was would form a united force to combat Paul, most would bow and those that wouldn't would quickly be overwhelmed by the Fremen and Pauls supporters.
>Ok but thats still only 1 planet worth of manpower,
keep in mind all combat is 99% melee. It's not the moronic hybrid guns+melee you see in the movie.
So it'd be very easy for the Fremen to invade and conquer one planet at a time with minimal loses.
>stockpilles
raiding warehouses is common practice in spy wars, and everyone else would run out of spice faster than Paul would run out of warriors
they're not just nobles, they are CHOAM stockholders and total war will stop revenue flow
Control arrakis, control the spice, control the entirety of global trade and travel.
Everyone is a lazy piece of shit. Technically the Sardaukars are good fighters because they actually go to the gym and the Fremen because they come from an inhospitable planet, but the others are amateurs. The Emperor's problem with House Atreides is that they started training their troops and do weapons research into sonic weapons, which the movies doe not touch
think if saudi arabia controlled all oil, was able to defend it and stopped exporting oil unless you bent the knee.
What would happen?
Living in harsher environments means that only the strongest survive. The entire reason the Saraukar are hyped is because they train on a brutal planet, but dune is the shittiest harshest planet. After Dune because more survivable the fremen get lazier and weaker than in Paul's generaiton.
Fremen kept their blades sharp while everyone in the empire including the Sardaukar stagnated
Why did the Harkonnens stop using their shields whenever they were fighting the Fremen?
Shields can't be used in the desert because they attract the worms and drive them into a killing frenzy
Oh shit.
Did the films ever mention this? That rings a bell but I'm not sure
it does. but the film also shows shields being used in the desert.
>Did the films ever mention this?
The imperial ecologist explains it in the first film when paul asks why they don't shield the crawlers
Ah that's what I was thinking of, thank you!
(Feels like they should've mentioned it at least one other time but at least it's there)
Does it? Part 2 opens with Harkonnen scrambling and saying they should use their shields. But they don't actually use them. I guess you're counting when they attack the Fremen and Duncan dies in part 1 as the desert?
>Feels like they should've mentioned it at least one other time but at least it's there
Vileneuve has a fetish for mentioning things only once. There was only 1 line of dialogue in DUNC 1 explaining that the fremen prophecy was propaganda, only 1 line of dialogue explaining that Leto knew full well Arrakis was a trap by the emperor but was playing into it anyway, only 1 line of dialogue explaining the true purpose of spice, etc. Even Leto's dying words "here I am, here I remain" was supposed to be a callback (he says it in his speech to the great houses when he first lands on arrakis as a way of saying "what are you gonna do about it huh" to the emperor) but in the film it's only said once
>There was only 1 line of dialogue in DUNC 1 explaining that the fremen prophecy was propaganda
At least that was mentioned a few times in part 2.
>only 1 line of dialogue explaining that Leto knew full well Arrakis was a trap by the emperor but was playing into it anyway
I think I missed that, or it didn't click that that was what he meant
>only 1 line of dialogue explaining the true purpose of spice, etc.
What was the true purpose, space fuel? Cause that was mentioned a few times wasn't it?
>Even Leto's dying words "here I am, here I remain" was supposed to be a callback (he says it in his speech to the great houses when he first lands on arrakis as a way of saying "what are you gonna do about it huh" to the emperor) but in the film it's only said once
That seems very weird. Especially since I'm pretty sure his dying words were mostly inaudible
spice allows guild navigators to calculate their path through space, they have warp engines that can travel faster then light but they need to know how to calculate their trajectory so that they don't hit any obstacles and they need pin point accuracy or they can get lost in space, the spice allows them to navigate through space with out the use of computers.
>he says it in his speech to the great houses when he first lands on arrakis as a way of saying "what are you gonna do about it huh" to the emperor
what speech?
In the banquet scene.
I'm still mad it's missing.
I'm not, but it's stupid that he left Leto's "here I am, here I remain" with the big musical cue as if it's supposed to be a moment when there's absolutely no context for the line
We need someone to punch Denny out of his French farthuffery and make him realize we need an extended cut of both.
It's fine, with ai advances we can manufacture our own extended cut within the next 5 years
I hadn't thought of that, but it is a good idea.
yes, when they first attack a harvester the thopter is shielded.
NEVER USE SHIELDS ON DUNE YOU MADMAN
1. VURMS APLENTY
2. IF YOU USE LASERS ON A SHILLED, ATOMIC FIREWORKS!!!
in the book the jihad was pretty much inevitable by the time he links up with Stilgar. If he died, his mommy would carry it out. If she dies, they'd both be martyrs and the Fremen would carry on with their religious fervor.
What did the reverend mothers want with a Kwanza Hatchery ? Paul became one and basically did whatever he wanted. They couldn’t control him
Plus as soon as men could unlock Race Memories they’d basically surpass the Bene Geseritte
Because the Kwisatz Haderach they were originally working towards would be one they'd have control of from birth.
Even in the book Paul becoming the emperor was stupid. Should have ended with him killing Harkonnens and taking control of the planet
Him becoming the emperor is the plan he sells to liet kynes so that liet helps him
Because it's unironically the lesser evil from the futures he can see.
Everything is so much worse if he doesn't carry out the jihad.
He just decided to stop being a b***h-ass pussy.
he drank the machiavellian juice
It's not explained in the movie, but Paul's internal struggle in the book is how to walk the tightrope of avenging his father and family name, while also not triggering a mass Jihad genocide. The Imperial marriage was his best attempt at preventing bloodshed. He reflects on the choice further in Children of Dune when he is physically blinded and must wall into the desert by Spice Sight alone. Ultimately Paul is a tragic character, however. Because he only succeeds in delaying the bloodshed necessary and his son Leto II inherited the responsibility to do what was necessary to save the human species.
thats not true lol, by the time he is about to fight feyd rathua he realizes the jihad is then inevitable, but prior to that it wasn't, albeit, its unclear if he could have got both revenge and also avoided the jihad.
the part you are incorrect about is that the fremen jihad is not the same thing as the golden path that his son follows, that results in something that is even worse then the fremen jihad, its like thousands of years of intense autocratic subjugation that spans the known universe.
>by the time he is about to fight feyd rathua he realizes the jihad is then inevitable, but prior to that it wasn't
illiterate
reread Chapter 34, right after they reclaim Jamis's water
>The thought was both reassuring and frustrating. Somewhere ahead of him on this path, the fanatic hordes cut their gory path across the universe in his name. The green and black Atreides banner would become a symbol of terror. Wild legions would charge into battle screaming their war cry: “Muad’Dib!”
>It must not be, he thought. I cannot let it happen.
>But he could feel the demanding race consciousness within him, his own terrible purpose, and he knew that no small thing could deflect the juggernaut. It was gathering weight and momentum. If he died this instant, the thing would go on through his mother and his unborn sister. Nothing less than the deaths of all the troop gathered here and now—himself and his mother included—could stop the thing.
>Chapter 34
where tf did you find an edition with numbered chapters?
I made a physical one myself, but the official ebook also has chapter separation
I'm actually working on a massive annotated version that details the literary/scriptural/language references in Dune, of which there are an incredible number
Herbert was not lying when he said he read over 200 books in preparation for writing Dune
>I made a physical one myself
based autist
My gilded b&n edition is slightly messed up and I was thinking about having it rebound in a nice leather hardcover.
>I'm actually working on a massive annotated version that details the literary/scriptural/language references in Dune, of which there are an incredible number
Are you planning on selling it to Norton as a foundation for a future critical edition, or is this just for pure pleasure? Either way, I admire the dedication. Frank was very well-read.
>Are you planning on selling it to Norton as a foundation for a future critical edition, or is this just for pure pleasure? Either way, I admire the dedication. Frank was very well-read.
I'll certainly get in touch with the publishers/rights holders and see if they're interested
If not, I'll just format all the notes to make it easy to follow along with the book and stick em on the internet
this ancient page detailing stuff in Eliot's The Waste Land was a huge inspiration for me to do it, and it's a constant disappointment to me that there isn't a 'literature wiki' on the internet that does exactly this for every classic work in the public domain
https://eliotswasteland.tripod.com/
checked
>I'll certainly get in touch with the publishers/rights holders and see if they're interested
Good luck. If you can, try to ride the hype train before the Messiah film hits theaters in the next few years. That might boost your chances of getting paid/published.
>it's a constant disappointment to me that there isn't a 'literature wiki' on the internet that does exactly this for every classic work in the public domain
Putting all of that info into a single domain would make for little more than juicy takedown bait. If authors and their estates are willing to go after something as banal as archive.org they'll go after anyone.
Did he frick his mom? Is that how she's pregnant?
No, Leto fricked her a few weeks before the Atreides were massacred.
Oh, good lol. I saw how she was side-eyeing him changing clothes in the first movie and assumed the worst
They cut the scene but Leto I impregnated Jessica on Arrakis before he was murdered.
Is this guy going to be in part 3
Watched this in theaters. Haven't been to movies in a while but it was cool to actually be able to feel the sound of the sandworms and dragonfly-copters from how loud it was. Gave the experience a tactile quality that Denis capitalized on.
This is just one of the huge glaring obvious problems caused by the movie's drastic compression of the timeframe.
In the movies, Alia isn't born so the entire events of Part 1 & 2 occur in less than 9 months.
In the book, 12 years pass. Paul is convinced into following the Narrow Way and turning the jihad loose after the Harkonnens kill his son.
Villenvue's bastardised script literally makes the story in part 2 fricking moronic.
Dune should have ideally been three movies to make actual sense.
Yeah, its different. What's wrong with it?
if you want to die, throw yourself into the sea and you'll find yourself fighting to survive
life is struggle and fight for survival
you can agree to die on the paper but when it's time, there's a deep programming in us that tells us: no matter what SURVIVE
+ there are things that are meant to happen, no matter how, no matter who does them, they shall happen. That's why the identity of the prophet they're all waiting for is not carved in stone.
So if things are going to go badly, if I play a role in them or not, if I die or not, maybe I will live and accept my fate.
He has seen the nature of war and would wish it upon no man.
If the BG were responsible for planting messiah myths on different worlds, did other planets also believe in Paul as the messiah or was that just specifically Arrakis?
no, if I understood the story right, BG only implanted vague myths and very basic religious stonecorners-
When Jessica gets to Fremen, she's surprised how complex the religion there became, for example Fremen had their own reverend mothers, this was NOT supposed to be a thing. Fremen just kinda started doing it on their own.
After a few years of being Muad'dib and seeing how much his existence has already changed the Fremen he realizes he can either lead the jihad to a best possible outcome for humanity or die early as a martyr and they would jihad endlessly with no real goal
I watched the sci fi miniseries over a decade ago and barely remember it.
But I could've sworn that in it, Paul/his kids became super soldiers specifically from using the spice? Am I going crazy? Was this cut/downplayed in these films? Is that a spoiler for what happens in Messiah?
wdym super soldiers
paul is trained by some of the strongest men of the imperium, has bene gesserit training and mentat training and comes from the best gene pool of the universe. He's literally peak human. He eventually gains prescience, which does in fact make him pretty much super human
Okay, I'm probably just misremembering the water of life and confused it for spice in my head. Thanks anon.
>Okay, I'm probably just misremembering the water of life and confused it for spice in my head. Thanks anon.
You're probably remembering leto II's super speed after he joins with the sandtrout.
>your entire family is slaughtered due to political machinations from your bitter rival and the emperor
>you're left to die in the harshest possible conditions with your beloved pregnant mother and soon-to-be infant sibling
>none of the other great houses help
>only one group of people cares about you and helps you survive
>an actual prophecy that is obviously fricking completely targeted at you continually details how you'll rise to power and how this is not only necessary, but completely justified
>literally everything is in your hands to seize power, remove the forces that slaughtered your beloved honorable family and best friends, and make something new
>you're supposed to somehow say "no" to this option and persist in the desert with a mutt wife and hiding from a big fat bald homosexual for the rest of your days
.... what? I don't see how anything Paul did was in any way irrational in the slightest.
Melange is such a funny word
>THE SPICE MELANGE
kek sounds like a bit that south park would do
It's french.
They did do it. It was some episode making fun of Tom Brady.
How exactly does this Jihad work?I thought Fremen are only strong in the desert on Arrakis. How do the Fremen even travel to other planets? Do they even have ships? Do they just show up and start stabbing people? Why do they start killing everyone? Can the other houses really not defend themselves from sand people from another planet?
House warfare is not like modern total war between nations. House forces have been trained in specific ways. Combat stagnated as the balance of power maintained things. Atomics were banned by convention. Houses fought with a lot of intrigue. Paul controls the spice so they now cannot travel and can be picked off one by one. The Fremen are strong because living on Arrakis made them strong because of its harsh conditions and they are all fanatics. They attack and kill those that do not accept Paul as Emperor because they believe him to be their messiah.
That sounds nice and all but they have no way to build a fleet and they have no experience fighting off world without the limits on shields and other weapons. They would get gunned down like zulus.
Good thing all space travel is controlled by the space israelites so the houses have to sit on their planets and play knight with each other
If he died at this point the war would start anyway.Even if he told them that he didnt want it they would start the war anyway.
Will Denis have Stilgar say Paul is way better than Hitler?
>What little information we have about the old times, the pittance of data the Butlerians left us, Korba has brought it for you. Start with the Genghis Khan.
>Genghis . . . Khan? Was he of the Sardaukar, m’Lord?
>Oh, long before that. He killed... perhaps four million.”
>He must’ve had formidable weaponry to kill that many, Sire. Lasbeams, perhaps, or...
>He didn’t kill them himself, Sil. He killed the way I kill, by sending out his legions. There’s another emperor I want you to note in passing — a Hitler. He killed more than six million. Pretty good for those days.
>Killed . . . by his legions?
>Yes.
>Not very impressive statistics, m’Lord.
>start with Genghis Khan
No Alexander, Caesar... ?
alexander was a conquest crazy gay and caesar was a power hungry general, neither have the same bloodthirst as Khan.
he did should have started with maybe assyrians though
ITS HOLY WAR
ON THE DANCE FLOOR
No it isn't. In the first book pauls vision suggest that the jihad will happen regardless if he lives or dies unless Paul kills the fremen, his mom and then himself. Obviously since paul doesn't want to die he chooses to lead the fremen instead in hopes he can restrain the jihad somewhat. This is moronic because you would think that with his 300 iq space wizard powers paul could find a timeline where it doesn't happen. Whatever the case he never had a real choice and isn't the bad guy because he was just trying to stay alive.
Then in the third and fourth book they retcon everything with this golden path bullshit. Basically paul was "supposed" to transform into a giant worm god but was scared of the transformation so never did and it's up to his son, leto to pick up the slack. Why? Because humanity will go extinct for reasons never adequately explained. So paul is apparently the bad guy because he wanted to stop the jihad but he's also bad because he didn't go far enough, which doesn't make any sense.
>wait is he a Good Guy?
>he did Bad Guy stuff tho...
jesus christ it doesnt have to be one or the other
I really don't see how you can say he's bad guy when the fremen were going to jihad with or without him.
Read the books instead of just looking up shit in a wiki, Black person.
I have. Page 331 of the putnam edition paul says the jihad is inevitable unless he kills himself, his mom and the fremen he's with. It's the chapter where they bury Jamis.
this isn't true. paul sees multiple possible futures where the jihad could maybe not happen, he has trouble finding a future where he both can get revenge on the baron harkonnen and also not cause the jihad, and its unclear if that future doesn't exist, or if he simply can't think of it using prescience, and this is to hint at the possibility that actually using prescience is a handicap becuase it makes you have limited deterministic unimaginative thinking. this is made super explicitly clear in god emperor of dune.
the golden path exists in the first book, although its not fully explained until the next two books, it is clear that humanity is headed towards a really horrible future based on its complacency unless it goes through a narrow path that would involve alot of hardship, its called "Where we cannot look" and when other future tellers just contemplate that future they go insane from how fricked up it is. pauls son does it by being the god emperor, but again one wonders if that was the way it had to be or if this was a limitation of using prescience. because part of what the god emperor determines is the reason why humanity is headed down a dark path is its use of prescience in the first place.
Yes. The Spice not only extends life it also gives you prescient abilities, it started giving him nightmares which showed him possible futures
The movie fricks this up because it doesn't portray the nightmares as too violent, he never sees gorey consequences. This is shown in the first movie when he is fighting the sardoukar in parkour style but then in dune 2 it's revealed it was Chuni and not him, proving his former abilities were limited
After he drinks the snake water his prescient abilities are unlocked (he should have died that's why he was called an abomination) and are now more precise, that's why he was able to read minds and decided the best course of action to avenge daddy
in the book it was alia who is called abomination and the movie just made it up by calling paul the abomination.
no it doesn't. post a screen shot proving it.
I didn't read the books but what I understand from watching the movie is that he got instant massive info dump after drinking Sacred Water that fricked his brain so much he became different person.
His initial visions were of just 1 possible future and after his info dump he saw all possible futures and decided to pursue the least worse possible future/golden path which is why he 180'd on his jihad thing
>is this 180 explained better in the books? it didn't make much sense to me in the movie
He had no choice. His cult was so powerful he couldn't stop it himself. If he died it would be even worse.
billons must die.
>It's coming. I see a race war spreading across the universe like unquenchable fire.
Did they pussy out and refuse to call it a jihad in the Villeneuve flick?
they just call it holy war
not sure why theyd call it jihad though when arabic isnt a thing in the movie overall
the books call it a jihad
really? thats kinda stupid
Are you moronic and not noticed the fricking insane amount of Arabic language and symbolism used in the books?
Dune is the Iraqi word for dune, a book written on earth, which is a planet containing the country Iraq
Coincidence?
In the trailer for DUNC 1 they called it a crusade, but that line doesn't appear anywhere in either of the films, it's just "holy war"
In the trailer for part 1, Paul says the "fear is the mind killer" line but I don't remember him actually saying it?
He’s no longer Paul. He’s Paul. A Paul to be sure, but still not Paul.
I was left with the impression that the water of life corrupted both Jessica and Paul. I’ve seen other posts about how much viewers loved Jessica in this, but I saw her as vaguely evil after drinking the water of life.
Once Jessica drinks it and becomes the new reverend mother, one of her first plans of action is to target “weaker” Fremen and essentially indoctrinate them into believing Paul is the Mahdi. She becomes so obsessed with pushing the prophecy onto the Fremen and is far less concerned with the well-being of her son.
Before Paul drinks it, he does not see himself as the Mahdi at all. After drinking it, he believes he is and announces it firmly to the Fremen. He seems to write off Chani after this who is the only Fremen who will not bow to him. His character shifts drastically from a sincere, heroic descendant of Atreides to an emboldened, arguably entitled man clambering for power. This marks the beginning of a new kind of war, with atom bombs and one where Paul is defiant of any perceived opposition of his personal prophecy.
I could be wrong, but I’ve deduced that the water of life leads them to act only for power and less from their hearts. Slaves to the future by way of the past.
Paul is no more. Chani (movie Chani, not book Chani) has a right to be pissed.
This is pretty much it, the "water of life" turns you into a psychopath aka israelite.
The windex of life sharpened Paul's prescience and gave him access to the memories of all his ancestors. It allowed him to see that there is no escaping the jihad, as the jihad is the most peaceful option that doesn't result in the extinction of mankind.
in the books
the water of life gives you control over your biology to a heightened degree, by turning it from a poison to not a poison inside your body, you unlock mastery over your own body, and in doing so, you can access your genetic memory, it allows you basically to talk to your ancestors as if they were alive, you can have conversations with them and consult with them on what to do, a by product is that they can compete for control over your body and mind and possess you. in addition, the water of life makes you experience prescience more often, and in doing so, you become more deterministic in your thinking and rely more on prescience.
in the book, the reason why paul has the 180 is because the seige on the seitch kills his son that he had with chani and this sends him into a blind rage.
I still don't understand how or why the Tleilaxu's were spared from Paul's Jihad, maybe someone can explain?
they were non political and offer niche products, same as Ix
Because they provide the Duncan clones. It's not more complicated than that.
In mini-tv series harkies killed his kid which probably helped.
That's also in the book. As other anons ITT have already complained, the shortened timespan for Denny's movies makes the script moronic.
>god is not real me fake messiah lol
>also i has literal magic now
These movies are just going to encourage Muslims to commit more terrorism I swear to god. Arabs are particularly (dangerously…) susceptible to narrative, or storytelling.
Screencap this post.
is this the new "joker will lead to shootings"?
This movie will just increase the SMV of Arab men with moviegoing audiences.
So did Chani's kiss really save Paul's life after he drank the water, or was he just manipulating her to impress the fremen?
From a non-bookgay perspective there's no real reason think she didn't actually save his life
Why do people pretend to care about Dune?
Yeah we're all in here pretending
It's going to make a billion dollars, you troony.
Why did he drink the life water? Didn't look like anyone was forcing him
“LOOOL ONLY WOMEN CAN DO COOL JEDI STUFF LOOOL”
Woke ass movie
The Voice in the books isn’t actually mind control more so than charismatic manipulation. A Bene Gesserit has to study their target first, and everyone has a different tone. Overuse can also render one immune, as does training to resist it.
>charismatic manipulation
That sounds lame af
(me)
Ok, to understand the Voice you have to understand how it functions.
The Voice is uniquely pitched to every single listener. It is adjusted based on their background, thought process, and instincts which a well trained member of the BG can intuitively identify given enough time with the subject. You cannot use the Voice on someone you have no experience with (trained BG members can study people rapidly, but it still takes several minutes of study and you need the subject to provide you with additional information). The Voice operates by triggering instincts and desires in the subject not by forcibly controlling their mind (the movie makes it look more like mind control than the books which make it very clear that it's manipulation).
Ok, with all of those basics out of the way, the voice cannot effectively be used on properly trained subjects. They are able to consciously and unconsciously resist because they are also constantly assessing those internal reflexes.
Next, the voice can't make you do totally irrational things like trying to lift a thopters with your bare hands. Again, the book explains better, but the scene with Paul and his mother on the 'thopter Paul leans on the primal sex drive of the Harkonnen agents to trick them into killing one another because the winner gets the spoils (Jessica).
Finally, (sorry for all the meta interjections) I will note that all of the limits I covered here are based on the much more explicit operation of the Voice as described in the book. In general the movie follows the same rules as the book but is much less explicit. Until and unless we are told otherwise it's safe to assume things operate the same way.
So they're not really "witches"?
I guess that makes sense if going for realism, but still kinda of a leap for me to buy
Yes, they’re still “witches”, since they can literally tell you to have a nice day, once they study you for a few minutes. It’s why they observe before they interact. Once you’re studied, you’re susceptible.
They’re called “witches” because they’re highly esoteric, sinister and secretive, and have access to abilities lesser known by men. The only thing more esteemed than a Reverend Mother is a Guild Navigator.
In a world of science, magic survives as a descriptor, not a definer. Magic -is- “magic”. The god-emperor is a “god”. The spice may as well be magic space cocaine.
(me)
(me)
Also, analytical Mentats who know how the Voice works can resist it completely.
Prescience is actually more masculinely complete, and the Bene Gesserit are in-fact masculinely lacking, or incomplete.
— "We look down so many avenues of the past . . . but only feminine avenues." Her voice took on a note of sadness. "Yet, there's a place where no Truthsayer can see. We are repelled by it, terrorized. It is said a man will come one day and find in the gift of the drug his inward eye. He will look where we cannot — into both feminine and masculine pasts."
Anyone who tells you that the Bene Gesserit are a good example of a strong and empowering fictional group of feminist women are wrong.
But, of course the movie wouldn’t dare to touch on any of this, for obvious reasons.
( Seriously, the Bene Gesserit effectively worship the coming of the god-male, who will pass both thresholds—the Water of Life as well as both sides of ancestral genetic memory. )
>He will look where we cannot — into both feminine and masculine pasts
Twink supremacy
This actually follows real life esoteric trends, most practitioners are women but the most 'powerful' or prominent are always men
In some way it was always understood that men have both feminine and masculine qualities in themselves (X/Y chromosomes) while females are restricted to the feminine (X/X)
In Zoroastrianism, the religion arguably responsible for the word ‘magic’, it’s like this as well. Men and women are treated equally, as spoken by Zoroaster, but women are still seen as more spiritually tainted, or less spiritually enlightened, potentially. Women have more to do with unpredictableness and chaos, while men are more, well, orderly. Even chaos has an order to it, and this is displayed by both Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu being male.
>good witches/wizards are mostly male
>bad witches/wizards are mostly female
This is a common theme in myth too
Mythology is misogyny.
all this meant in the book is that the bene gesserit can only consult with their female ancestors.
but paul, alia, and pauls daughter and son can all consult with their female and male ancestors.
All Reverend Mothers can look into their male halves, but it terrifies them, and comes across as a fearsome void. Paul dared Mohiam to look into it in their confrontation, and Jessica experiences it as bright overwhelming lights when Paul passes through her memories.
Just watched the first and god is it shite.
It's simultaneously self serious and droning whilst also being capeshit tier dumb. It starts okay but quickly becomes 3 hours of repetitive set up for things that don't even happen in the film and you're already long bored of. It could have been condensed to 40 minutes if they just removed all the premonitions of bonobo-broad in the desert.
> "le sadukar are the most deadly warriors in the galaxy"
> *based samoan aquaman kills 40 of them with a stick*
Don't worry, Aquaman returns in the next movie.
There should be some kind of IQ test required before you can post here.
Benny and the Jesuits
are there aliens in the dune universe? the universe is big you know
No. This is Game of Thrones in space. The most alien things you’ll ever see are the Guild Navigators, and later the God-Emperor Leto II.
Because you've had four years to think of an alternative solution to our problems?
>is this 180 explained better in the books?
its literally explained multiple times in the movie
maybe pay attention next time.
Why didn't the other houses submit to him?
He defeated the Emperor got his daughter to be his wife and controlled the spice
As they say he who controls the spice controls the universe
What possible reason or hope could the other houses even have in trying to fight, when essentially they would be fighting the guy the Emperors daughter is married to?
Why were the Harkonens so mean to the bald qts bros?
That one was shivering in terror
I just want to protect them
How did the Harkonnens know where to bombard the fremen?
Once the fremen got riled up there was no stopping them. They'd find a way to blackmail the spacing guild with or without Paul. That's why it's said once Paul chose to not die in the desert where the Harkonnens dumped him the wheels were already in motion.
so he's like eren yaeger?
he didn't get cucked, no
in the books he's trying to figure out how he can get revenge on the baron and not cause the jihad to happen, its not explicitly made the case that that wouldn't be possible, but he has trouble figuring out how. he sees possible futures where the jihad doesn't happen but he has trouble seeing ones where he gets revenge on the baron and doesn't cause the jihad to happen.
then gurney halleck is found in the desert alive, he reunites with paul, and then in the seitch, gurney tries to kill jessica, paul stops it just in time, and gurney is ashamed when paul explains that jessica didn't betray house atredies, gurney offers his life, but paul says "nah homie you good", but the experience freaks him out because he couldn't see it happening in the future. so he takes the water of life ritual to increase his prescience skill, this further stresses him out about the possible futures available to him, and the audience is left to wonder, does utilizing prescience make the future more deterministic? could paul have more options if he didn't rely so heavily on the prescience?
then the harkonnens do a strike on a seitch and in the process kill his son that he had with chani, this makes paul so blinded with rage that he decides he's going to get revenge on the baron no matter what, and in the process he realizes at a certain point that he has guarenteed that the jihad will happen, he has this realization right before fighting feyd rathua.
He realized he could genocide people he disliked, at the low cost of genociding people he didn't know well even if they were cool
The Jihad, and later the Golden Path started by Paul's Son, Leto II, was meant to avoid the total extinction of the human race in the known universe. So the choices are, do nothing and humanity goes extinct, or start the Jihad and the Golden Path and humanity survies, albeit with heavy casualties. Which do you choose?
He realized that there was no way for him and the Fremen to survive against the Empire unless he united them under his myth as their Messiah. After drinking the water of life he saw that it was a doggy dog world, that he is Harkonnen, and that the only way to survive in a godless, uncaring universe is to be a Harkonnen
this isn't fricking true lol, in the book he had trouble figuring out a way to get revenge on teh baron harkonnen without triggering the jihad. it doesn't mean that was impossible, just he was struggling to figure it out, then when his son was killed (who wasn't even featured in the movie), he went into a blind rage and decided he would just get revenge on the baron and then try and figure out how to stop the jihad later, then when the baron dies and he's about to fight feyd rathua, he realizes the future is THEN set in motion and the jihad was going to happen no matter what.
the fremen were actually going to be ok regardless of what teh baron or the empire did, because the fremen are strong as frick, they are hyper resiliant and aren't overly negatively affected by the baron or the empire, they simple believe based on their religion that they are oppressed, and to an extent they are in like a lofty intellectual sense, but in practicality they are left almost entirely alone becuase they live in an inhospitable desert where no one can even find them, there are millions of them when the empire thinks theres only like ten thousand. paul did what he did because he wanted to revenge, he's an anti hero. he literally laments what he's done at the end of the book.
I'm talking about the movie not the book, sperg
even in the movie he is concluding that the only way to get revenge on the baron is by being like the baron, this is ham fisted but it has nothing to do with the fremen surviving, it establishes in the movies that the empire thinks that there is like 10 thousand fremen but theres actually millions and they don't even think there is anyone inhabiting the southern hemisphere of dune.
There's an entire scene where he gets in an argument with Gurney and Chani because he can't figured out how to get revenge without causing the jihad tormenting his dreams. Paul doesn't really give a shit about the Fremen; he see's them as tools and is terrified he can't control them even as Lisan al Gaib
Nta. So even prior to drinking the water he doesn't really care about the fremen or chain?
He cares about Chani but Paul never really expresses concern for the Fremen in the first book beyond basic morality that they deserve to live peacefully. They're a tool for his survival and later his revenge.
Paul isn't a morally bad character but he isn't a hero. He only wants to help himself and those he immediately loves. It's why his son is the one who has to finish the decisions that lead to the Golden Path.
>Paul isn't a morally bad character
He is objectively evil and let's himself indulge because every path is objectively evil as well
>doggy dog world
I hope that was a typo.
Paul Atreides leading the holy war is the lesser of two evils. By doing so, only 60 billion people died rather than hundreds of billions more if he refused to take control of the jihad. And if you think telling the Fremen that he wasn't their messiah would have ended it, then let me introduce you to the messiah of the Rastafari religion, Emperor Haile Selassie of Ethiopia, who is a member of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and who told the Rastafari that he was a man and to not deify any human being including himself.
But they didn't listen and they still worship him to this very day. Paul Atreides had an even worse case Brianism than Haile Selassie.
Paul does tell them that, and Stilgar's response is that his humility is further evidence that Paul is indeed the Lisan al Gaib.
Typical libcuck
So is Denis not gunna have the weird fishtank monster thing from the beginning of the Lynch movie?
They are likely candidates for mid/side-antagonists in Messiah.
But their opposition to Paul is sort of obvious and redundantly undermined by his monopolized control over spice.
It's not like they have some unique toolset with which to fight him rather than any other political power.
They are MORE dependent on spice than any other faction.
If im understanding correctly Paul isn't actually harkonnen, just his sister right?
no
Jessica, Paul's mother, is a child of Baron Harkonen.
>is this 180 explained better in the books? it didn't make much sense to me in the movie
It's more complicated than a marvel movie so you probably wouldn't understand even if I spent a few minutes writing it out
Once he drinks the water he's faced with the reality that if he doesn't start the jihad himself, his death begins the jihad regardless. The only difference is that he's alive in one scenario and can try to move events towards better outcomes. Billions will die either way.
He only realised it couldn’t be stopped when it was too late. Just coming into contact with the Fremen was enough to send it into motion. He kept looking for a way to set humanity on the right path until his end. He was a puppet, just as much as the Fremen were.