>NOOOO THE BALANCE OF THE FORCE IS SUPPOSED TO BE ONLY THE LIGHT SIDE WHILE THE DARK SIDE IS A CANCER!!! THERE CAN'T JUST BE A CENTER!!!
Say what you will of Filoni, but doing away with that lame binary fairy tale bullshit was a good idea.
 Thalidomide Vintage Ad Shirt $22.14 |
 CRIME Shirt $21.68 |
Thalidomide Vintage Ad Shirt $22.14 |
What's the "center" between the jedi and orbitally bombarding planets into dust?
>What's the "center" between the jedi and orbitally bombarding planets into dust?
just a touch of genocide here and there
Yes redditor, death is but a part of nature and can be as necessary as life is
That's some actual reddit shit "there's too many people". Genocide is not part of the natural cicle of the universe you dork.
Why are mass extinctions so common then? How do you propose to save other lives from an always chaotic evil species?
>How do you propose to save other lives from an always chaotic evil species?
Even the Yuuzhang Vong made peace and mellowed out.
Killing children but just casually with no overt goal.
it's filthy centrism
By stop fricking trying to fix the universe with a military religious order in endless wars against an enemy who keeps coming back from their own ranks. Jedi should be an isolationist order meditating on the force, not wannabe politicians or space cops.
Understanding that violence is part of nature and thus the Force
You don't bombard planets into dust but you also don't turn a blind eye to your Padawan's mom being enslaved on a planet you could very easily go back to and free all the slaves on, or at least free as many as you can with your Jedi dosh.
The fix to your spoiler is not lashing your religious order to a secular government's will.
Accepting that the Dark Side is obviously an inherent aspect of the Force and learning how to live with it rather than destroy or suppress it, while at the same time not rejecting the light side out of edgy turbo-autism which inevitably leads to becoming a miserable c**t.
its okay to NOT HATE NAZIS
The balance was 2 jedi, 2 sith. Dummarsh
The Imperium is not the National Socialists
Did you all escape from the dummarsh zoo, mumu?
Except there were loads more sith out there and also loads more jedi
I would have liked to see multiple Rule of Two Sith pairs running around and butting heads.
>we're the only true sith
>no WE are the only true sith!
Grey jedi are boring, they're usually force sensitives that were on one of the sides but got disillusioned or they're randos who neither side picked up.
I've never seen an actual full grey jedi character on any big star wars content so I wouldn't know if they're boring or not. Does Ahsoka count as one?
>Does Ahsoka count as one?
No, she just went through a loooong "I AM NO JEDI!!!" phase while still acting like one completely.
Grandmaster Luke in EU went full gray after his journey before he beat abeloth, then Cade motherfricking Skywalker
Also Kyle Motherfricking Katarn
Was he Grey, or just a rogue actor?
Generally abides by the Jedi Code, just doesn't go for any of the tradition or bathrobes because why would you walk around with a target on your back instead of a leather jacket?
Kyle mastered both light and dark side techniques
Same as fricking Cade and Previously Luke.
I'm pretty sure throwing lightning or chokeing aren't the tipping points of the dark side, neither they make you a grey jedi just by using them. Historically, it's just something we're told great/old/jaded jedi can do to make them look cooler.
>sequel trilogy is about a Jedi struggling with the dark side and a Sith struggling with the light side
>think it's going to end with the destruction of both organizations, people accepting that everyone has light and dark within them, no more restrictive Jedi, no more evil Sith, just Force users
>NOPE SOMEHOW PALPATINE RETURNED GOOD VS. EVIL RAYE IS GOOD KYLO IS GOOD GOOD GUYS WIN
"Sith struggling with the light side" is incoherent and moronic, you can't force yourself to be evil, and that itself is evil
He's just full of shit, says he's conflicted but everything he does is evil and he went evil/dark side for no reason
He's an edgelord who felt bad about it.
>"Sith struggling with the light side"
You mean Darth Gravid? He went insane trying to rectify the sides of the Force into mutual coexistence.
In my mind it's always made more sense to treat the Force like the Tao, upon which it's partially based. The Light Side is Yin and the Dark Side is Yang. Lucas trying to tack on Christian-style morality makes things messier than they have to be. The Sith, in a more Taoistic interpretation of the Force, are not strictly evil, they merely represent disruption, chaos, and change. Ergo, for all their destruction, they are ultimately necessary for the continued functioning of the galaxy.
>not strictly evil
huh?
I'm talking about how things OUGHT to be, not how they actually are in Star Wars.
As I said, how things actually are in Star Wars is a bit of a mess, because you have this muddled mush of East Asian-inspired thought mixed with standard Christian/Natural Law notions of good and evil. It all winds up as kind of a muddled mess. Lucas' subsequent attempts to call the Dark Side "a perversion of the Force" make even LESS sense.
Makes perfect sense to me
They're using the force to evil ends, thus perverted. Plenty of martial arts films have the villain using it for evil (killing)
It's not that complicated pal. Evil monks who murder people and use their power for personal gains. They're the bad guys.
Being selfish is not being evil, if you believe that you yourself are evil
It's not about being selfish and you know it. It's about using power to bend people's will, to terrorize and kill those who opose you and to give in to your worse impulses and get whatever you want no matter what gets in your way. Saying that that's being "selfish" is like saying a fighter jet is "just a tricycle".
>It's about using power to bend people's will
Like the jedi mind trick?
More like slavery and death squads to terrorize populations.
Jedi mind trick is a non-confrontational solution based on confusion. Again it's like comparing apples to cannonballs.
>slavery
Which the jedi are fine with, technically engage in themselves, and 80% of dark side users have never done (more normal people get up to that)
>Which the jedi are fine with, technically engage in themselves
>Source? I made it up
This is why I hate this disscusion, for people to be centrists in star wars and defend the dark side they have to be dishonest, rely in headcannon, "what-if" and "if I wrote it.../ if it was good".
>and 80% of dark side users have never done
Where'd you get that percentage from anywyas? Still, both the empire, the CIS and Revan's empire are shown to have enslaved people (Kashyyyk was enslaved both in KotOR and in Jedi: Fallen Order).
And again, a commet hitting a planet, or natural disasters are not equal, or simmilar to a gun the size of a moon ready to fire and snuff out all the life in a planet on a tirant's whim. You have to be lying to yourself to make these arguments.
>a commet hitting a planet, or natural disasters are not equal, or simmilar to a gun the size of a moon ready to fire and snuff out all the life in a planet on a tirant's whim
Why are they not? Nature willed for both to happen, even enshrining the crimes of the sith lord into cosmic prophecy
What part of "unnatural" did you not understand?
I feel like you're just trying to give me an aneurysm.
The force is natural by definition, and so is anyone who uses it
>Atoms are natural, therefore splitting them in the middle of heavy population centers, causing millions of deaths is fine, actually
have a nice day
>if people get the power to split atoms with their mind then it's the people who are dangerous and not the power itself!
have a nice day
I accept your concession.
Lucas was a hack writer who had no clue about the philosophies he was trying to use as models. People who actually take his dreck seriously and try to understand the "philosophical underpinnings of The Force" are some of the most pathetic creatures going.
>People who actually take his dreck seriously and try to understand the "philosophical underpinnings of The Force" are some of the most pathetic creatures going.
Just call them Jedi.
The death star was a creation of the empire, not the dark side
And the emperor, who's plan was to use the death star to terrorize and control the galaxy, was not affiliated with the dark side of the force in any way?
In both EU and Nucanon, The Ancient Sith and the Dark Side Abhored the Death Star
It's not evil to wipe out entire planets you moronic moralgay
This was completely Tarkin tho, Vader was just too much of a b***h to opt against it.
The Death Star was the emperor's plan to consolidate power into a total dictatorship and do away with the pretenses. The moment it was operational he dissolved the senate.
Alderaan was a bourgeoise monarchy full of bloodsucking kulaks.
There's no proof Alderaan actually happened
>he fell for rebel propaganda
There's like 2 non-evil Sith, one was a capitalist who found an evil locus in his mining operation and decided to not risk his worker's lives, and the other was a grey Sith who tried to destroy enough Sith texts to end the Sith order as we know it but was killed by his student before he could finish.
>gray sith
that's even more moronic than gray jedi. off yourself
>There's like 2 non-evil Sith, one was a capitalist who found an evil locus in his mining operation and decided to not risk his worker's lives
Coolest capitalist ever.
I disagree: to me, there's the PERCEPTION of the Dark Side as evil, something shared by the Jedi and Sith, which exists in-universe, but this is a false perception. In reality, there is only the Force and the natural Dark Side: the shadow cast by the Force. The Dark Side in its most natural form represents the inevitability of killing, conflict, and disagreement. It isn't so much as something immoral as it is amoral. Dagobah is where the Force and Dark Side thrives because it is nothing but nature and the cycle of life. Birds eat worms, the bigger birds eat the birds, and then the worms eat the bigger birds once they die.
The Dark Side only becomes something harmful when it is harnessed and tapped into by people acting immoral and who then abuse it to hurt others. The Sith and the Nightsisters are evil because they exploit the Dark Side to exploit others, and as such, they allow themselves to be corrupted by the choice to tap into more of it.
But one can ALWAYS step away from the Dark and embrace the Force. That's why Anakin became one with the Force even after doing all those horrible things: by choosing to do the right thing before he died, he too was saved.
I've always felt like Star Wars should have moved forward with the Dark Side going through an in-universe evolution of its perception: Force-sensitives begin showing up harnessing the power of the Dark Side but learn to control it under a very tight leash, not exploiting it to harm the weak and helpless, but using it to attack foes stronger than them.
I'd kill for seeing Akuma or Conan the Barbarian as Star Wars characters.
Didn't Yoda fight a female Akuma-like in the comics?
SW Crimson Reign #3?
Originally it was the force (balanced) and the dark side, light side was a later addition.
Eh, disorder is still viewed as bad in taoism. That's why the goal of taoist philosophy is to be in harmony with the dao instead of opposing it.
I think a lot of the confusion stems from the terminology. The light side=balance and the dark side=imbalance. But the wording makes it seem like the sides need to be equal when they're actually two opposing states.
The Christian style morality came first though, with the light side being in harmony with the force and the dark side fricking on it. There's a reason in the original trilogy all the dark side users were twisted and warped physically
I understood it as the force being possessive/addictive and using it with your emotions attached to releasing it, makes those emotions like a faucet that releases more force through the user. But the danger is that those emotions become addictive and harder to close once opened. "Light side" focuses on techniques closing those faucets and "Dark side" on opening them.
Then Jedi and Sith are separate from "Dark/Light side" practices. Jedi fear what massive torrent of Force could do to the universe, so they restrict it with any means necessary. The Sith are more complicated, they believe theres a massive empire outside of known galaxy that hasn't yet discovered them, so they're trying to unite the known galaxy under one rule and amass an army to fight off the coming invasion. Put the task is so impossible every Sith rely on Force and becomes addicted to it, which warps and perverts the empires they attempt to build.
Someone in the "gray" just doesn't know or care what Jedi and Sith teach. Theres no "gray side", like a half-open faucet.
>Someone in the "gray" just doesn't know or care what Jedi and Sith teach. Theres no "gray side", like a half-open faucet.
more like the fence sitting cow
You think being calm and practising and doing philosophy is good? And torture and treachery and mass genocide is bad? Heh... I'm more of a centrist myself.
>mind control, isolating children and enabling slavery = le good
>immortality, shooting lightning from your hands and cloning more space wizards = le bad
Children can leave the Jedi order any time they want, they don't because being a Jedi is considered celebrity status. Or it was before Disney retconned it so everyone hates them.
, shooting lightning from your hands and cloning more space wizards = le bad
Yes breaking the laws of nature is bad. Glad we agree.
Yes, fence shitters are moronic
Not everything us black and white like Communists believe
>don't be black and white, that's what my mortal enemy does!
10 years ago I might think you were being sarcastic, but this site is so stupid now it's hard to tell.
I always thought the light side of the force WAS balance. The Darkside was attempting to tip the scales one way or another in order gain some form of power.
Harmony in the Force requires destroying those who would pervert the Dark Side to kill and hurt and exploit others, people like the Sith. "Balance" in the Force means ridding the galaxy of people like the Sith: it does NOT mean destroying the Dark Side, as the Dark Side itself is not evil, but also not something possible to be destroyed.
Pretty much. The light side seemed more about adhering to the natural flow of the galaxy while the dark side was about imposing your will. It's why the first few films had them using similar looking gravitational powers in different ways, and it was a master sith that tried to directly kill another living being with pure life force power alone via force lightning. It's why those grey jedi and their fans are such tryhards, they basically want the ability to kill people with force powers and not feel guilty about it.
Didn't anakin bring balance to the force by making it two Jedi and two sith
The balance of the force is nature itself, which encapsulates the light side as they both connect. The dark side of the force is unnatural, it's power of the individual against the forces of nature. Since the dark side is a way to overpower the natural balance of the universe therefore it can never truly share it's existence with the light.
The Jedi only exists to regulate force users and Sith are a consequence and self fulfilled prophecy of Jedi hypocrisy.
THE BALANCE OF THE FORCE IS SUPPOSED TO BE ONLY THE LIGHT SIDE WHILE THE DARK SIDE IS A CANCER!!! THERE CAN'T JUST BE A CENTER!!!
>Say what you will of Filoni, but doing away with that lame binary fairy tale bullshit was a good idea.
They're all dogshit.
>the jedi are all wrong! the sith know better!
Gets her teeth kicked in by the sith
>u-uh.. they're both wrong...
kek
>thinking Kreia was right
brainlet detected
>thinking Kreia was right
CHAD detected.
Kriea was bitter but correct.
Don't help people for no reason. Do what you do and don't back down. (Go kill people I don't like, its necessary for YOU--the Force is GAY)
Kreia exaggerated though, there are instances in the game where I can help people at no actual cost of my own will or power and she still chastises me. She claims it makes others dependent, but a lot of optional quests and choices are just people who need a boost and will be fine on their own.
Kreia was moronic, she was avelonne's mouth for his homosexualry, same as new vegas for his dunit steel that was ulysses.
The Rick Sanchez of Star Wars
I wonder if they will ever have the balls to try to adapt KOTOR as a show or movie.
Kreia is literally a Sith trying to convince the PC to listen to everything she says so that she can twist you to her way of thinking and use you for her destructive goals. That she is opposed to other Sith does not change that fact.
Kreia is whatever she needs to be to accomplish her goals. She uses both the Jedi and Sith philosophies as tools and weapons, but she certainly does not subscribe to either one. Obviously she is too dark side to ever be a Jedi, but no Sith would detest their own reliance on the Force and seek to destroy their source of power. At least, not unless we expanded definitions in a way that Star Wars seems allergic to.
Yes I put points into both light and dark side powers, it shortens downtime and clears trash mobs faster.
>Yes I put points into both light and dark side powers, it shortens downtime and clears trash mobs faster.
Video games don't count, mass murder is a virtue in them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=MlC7ftIMafI&ab_channel=shadowhunter916
Light and Dark are not the same thing as Good and Evil.
light and dark are paths to power not different powers
Who the frick are you quoting?
EUnuchs.
>Meth Wars
izzat my homie karde in the back
>nu wars happened, AND THAT'S A GOOD THING
Shut up.
You WILL watch the disneywars heir to the empire
And you WILL like it.
Do you not realize that image is describing a binary system?
Grey is the ideal, but given the nature of the dark side, a person is much more likely to get close to it by trying and failing to reach the impossible peak of being a prefect jedi, than they are to do the lopsided balancing act of remain neutral.
Grey what though? The Jedi literally ARE balance, their whole thing is to detach themselves from wordly desire like weirdo Buddhists.
You can even fricking see it with the Sith. The dark side literally corrupts you. One Sith Lord fell so hard into the dark side that he turned into a shrieking black hole devouring entire planets to satisfy a bottomless hunger. How the frick can you have "too much" light that could compare to that?
>The Jedi literally ARE balance, their whole thing is to detach themselves from wordly desire like weirdo Buddhists.
Except for their desire to deeply involve themselves in galactic politics.
"The one in the middle."
Guys! I figured out who the Bendu is!
>NOOOOO, YOU CANT JUST SIDE WITH THE GUYS WHO WANT PEACE AND FREEDOM!!! YOU NEED TO ACCEPT JUST AND MUCH LIES AND MURDER!!!!
You and your moral relativism can suck my massive meat saber.
This. I don't accept a world where evil is a natural part of its cosmology. I'm a man of God.
but God made evil.
>I don't accept a world where evil is a natural part of its cosmology.
You live in one, christcuck.
Repent of your sins
The force is light and dark. Bendu represents nature/the living force (Filoni likened him to Tom Bombadil; a nature spirit of sorts). The grey jedi are a stupid concept because jedi are inherently supposed to be balanced, but somewhere along the way they become more like Christians shunning the dark side as sinful and not embracing their "shadows" as much. And losing touch with nature etc. Qui-Gon was an old school Jedi who believed in balance and following the living force but to the modern order he was a maverick and a troublemaker.
moronic take. This implies for every old lady I help across the street I need to go kick a puppy to balance myself out.
did they ever make light side force users who aren't jedi and actually good? if jedi are order and balance and sith are evil and chaos are there any true good guys?
How do you define good then? Like Force-wielding noble altruist anarchists?
I guess that was Luke's New Jedi Order in the old EU. Those Jedi didn't really give a shit about order and balance, and were objectively political when determining who to help and who to fight against. They basically turned into political terrorists during the Galactic Alliance coup
There is no light or dark side. That’s how it used to be and that’s the only way any of this makes sense. The reason Yoda said the “dark side” wasn’t stronger is because there isn’t one. The Force is strong, not the sides that people assign to it. When Obi-Wan said the Force is an energy field that binds the universe together, he didn’t add an addendum of “oh but there’s a literal split in the energy field between good things and bad things.” The OT never explored the wizard shit later iterations of Star Wars obsess over because “the Dark Side” was a path of using the Force for evil, not a literal motherfricking side to a mystical energy field.
Then George made the prequels and now if you tip under 15% at a bagel shop your eyes turn red and you’re evil forever.
Donating to charity and torturing orphans should both be performed in moderation and in equal amounts. Based Grey Jedi
Isn't that our government?
Huh, so they didn't kill off all the gray force users.
for me it's Kreia
>Revan knew snacks
Based post
Fixed it
Wow this image sure was improved by pasting some trashy reddit memes on it, great job anon.
Star Wars is cringe, only the OT is good and 'loregays' need to get a real job.
Grey Jedis are more justified the worse the Jedi Council is.
For example in KOTOR 1/2 they had a ton of issues.
george lucas was already waffling on the idea of the force being the force with the dark side being an aberration with the mortis arc, so the force being blue grey red already has g-canon precedent.
Lucas also waffled on the idea that the series should be any good ever since finishing ROTJ
ah ha ha i'm gonna t alk about star wars for hours and pretend i'm above it all i'm so jaded suck my dick
Settle down anon theyre just movies.
This and the wbw are why filoni is moronic.
At least this made a smidge more sense.
I forgot wolf autism
They miss what the point of Grey Jedi is.
They’re good people, they just don’t subscribe to the often restrictive ways of the council
Qui Gon is a grey jedi but no one seems to count him
He's really not even if people think he is the symbol of it.
he's not grey, he was chaotic good but didn't have all the facts
Qui-Gon wasn't grey, he was more light than the bureaucratic and hidebound Jedi Council led by Yoda and Mace Windu.
Dark Side defenders are the most unintelligent contrarians arguing for the opposite point where no evidence exists. To make a religious analogy:
Jedi are Abrahamics, they believe they hold the ultimate truth to the force and the universe and there is a lot of truth, good teaching and long tradition within their practices but they are often more binary and dogmatic.
Bendu and other force users are like historical pagans, their views are not as moralistic, not as binary and not as exclusive so their teachings allow for a lot more including what Jedi/Christians would see as wrong. But they too have their own truth, traditions with positive and aspirational goals.
Sith are modern Satanists. Their viewpoint is a childish and spiteful anger, devoid of any positive positions. They are not concerned with any larger issues besides personal aggrandizement. Theirs is not even a Machiavellian power with any attempt at practical application. They do not say "we torture the criminal so others do not become criminals out of fear" but "we torture the criminal because it is amusing to me."
>bendu has postitive and aspirational goals
no it doesn't. it's a fricking do nothing, primitivist hermit.
Peaceful, detached co-existence in a state of tranquility is a goal many aspire to. Even Alexander admired the wisdom of Diogenes.
>detached
from what exactly? that implies there's a something to be attached to
>state of tranquility
you mean negligent
>alexander admired diogenes
yeah and alexander also thought that the "strongest" person take his place. sith talk.
>from what exactly?
Everything. Money, power, fame, war, conflict, drugs, music. Bendu is a massive, intelligent, force sensitive being. He could have found a ship large enough to carrying him somewhere else where he could engage and attach himself to whatever he wishes to. He could have chosen to be attached to the Jedi Order or to have been a powerful warlord within the CIS.
>negligent
Of what? He had enough to eat and to drink and fosters the whole environment about himself.
>yeah and alexander also thought that the "strongest" person take his place. sith talk.
Strength for unity and competence is not the same as strength for personal enrichment and wanton destruction. But Alexander is not the point, Diogones is.
>he has all this power
>does nothing with it
no ambitions, not thoughts, no desires... NO MORALS
>fosters the whole environment
you're not getting it. if he's so powerful he could teach the jedi the error of their ways and prevent sith disruption. he could make the universe better so jedi become obsolete
>alexander is not the point
accept he is. you brought it up. alexander only liked diogenes as a novelty because diogenes could never be a military emperor like alexander. all that did was feed alexander's ego, so before he died he talked about strength, and ambition. alexander didn't have any actual principles of his own, just "me first" and "be a good leader" and if you can't be a good leader present yourself as if you were. his shit reads like some buzzwords summary for office work. he called greeks free men but slavery for everyone else. he studied aristotle who thought slavery was a natural institution. someone who thinks slavery is fine will of course point to someone like diogenes not out of respect but their own false interpretation of superiority
It's meaningless without the moral/spiritual dimension.
The new idea of Balance is accepting that the Dark Side exists and will tempt you and it cannot be truly destroyed, but to still reject it and stay with the Light as harmony.
It’s basically the whole lesson Yoda had to learn to be able to ascend to become a ghost as shown in TCW.
Yes.
I loved this and the Mortis arc.
I just love when the series digs into its more fantasy elements.
At it's core SW is mythology. The sci fi elements are just there to modernize it. Nature vs technology etc. The Mortis arc and the Priestess arc are very Joseph Campbell.
I just wish we got more mystical and esoteric force adventures like it
Yeah it's a shame. I believe the unmade Clone Wars episodes about the Sith Shrine beneath the Jedi Temple was a continuation of some of the things set up in the Priestess arc. Like Sidious using Sith Sorcery to take out Yoda. And there would've been some exploration of Jedi and Sith history and the dark side creatures living in the depths of Coruscant.
man that's so great. I love tolj
It's also a key part of TESB.
not all dark side users are sith
The Nightsisters tap into the dark side of the force but they aren't consumed by it. I guess because there's more of an exchange there and it's not like the Sith where it's just greed and selfishness. The Nightsisters live in accord with nature and look out for the clan. So there are different dark side philosophies and ways to interact with the force that skew more towards magic, depends on the culture.
>accord with nature
Don't they reanimate corpses?
It's what the deceased Nightsisters would've wanted. Use their dead ancestors to protect the living. It's messed up but that's their culture. Again it's different to the Sith where they only look out for themselves. Nightsisters are more collectivist.
Also keep in mind that the Nightsisters were being drawn into wars and shit similar to the Jedi so they were getting distorted a bit. Talzin's ambitions fricked her over and she was tempted to join with Palpatine in the past. And now we have Morgan Elsbeth working for the Empire and the other Nightsisters helping Thrawn. So I think they have become more power hungry like the Sith now whereas before they were just minding their own business on Dathomir.
I think it’s interesting how the Jedi Order knew enough about the Nightsisters to know they practice a form of the Dark Side as magicks yet they left them alone.
Shows the order tolerates other force using organizations that aren’t the Sith.
Canonically, while they often were a bit haughty and preachy in regards to other orders, the Jedi were 100% fine with letting, say, the Matukai live and let live, yes. In opposition to the Sith, who made an active effort to smash any other group into submission or kill them outright.
i want to frick a nightsister.
why is he a moose
The thing is, you can be a light side user without being a Jedi, or a dark side user without being a sith
Yet they make a very important distinction about how if you are one of those specific classes of warrior. You basically get locked into certain things. Force wielders like the night sisters can literally smell Jedi on people.
Shame the actor died because Baylan Skoll feels like the perfect middle ground where he isn’t an evil butthole and doesn’t betray his own code of honor, or a Jedi who is afraid to kill anyone because it’s le evil
Don't try to think too hard about Star Wars morality.
All writers have shown that they're incapable of writing nuance, they should've stuck to black and white morality since it's simple to do and it makes for memorable characters.
Much less try to discuss it as if it was real life. Yeah of course the Sith are unforgivably evil, they're written to be like that.
I'd bet that the morality presented is mostly a reflection of Lucas' and the other writer's beliefs.
Yeah, being a "good" force user means effectively becoming a sociopath that only looks at problems on a macro scale. To the point where as soon as Luke starts using his powers to save his friends and loved ones they start portraying him as evil.
If the point of the sequels and all these series was to make me hate the jedi, they did succeed.
Everyone who opposed the Jedi ways in any way was portrayed as completely evil, from the Death Watch to Barriss. The Jedi are shown to have many flaws but hey you should never try to question that because you're going to turn cartoonishly evil.
This isn’t true though. There’s pretty interesting nuance in the OT and prequels at least.
Palpatine is probably the most genuinely just evil character. But most sith are sith because they genuinely believe things will become better if they had total power and control.
The Jedi are also shown to be heavily flawed in their dogma. Not just in the prequels where like you say they’re basically sociopaths. Who take kids to be raised to not love anyone and don’t bother freeing their slave parents because attachment is bad lol
Even in the OT George Lucas made a big distinction to show that Luke at first learns from the Jedi. Then he ignores their counsel to rescue his friends in Empire Strikes Back and suffers for it…
So when Lucas had Luke ignore them again to try and bring Anakin back instead of Yoda and Obi Wan’s plan which was just to murder Vader and the Emperor. He proved the Jedi were wrong. You aren’t permanently fallen if you’ve gone to the dark side. You aren’t weak or failing if you have love and attachments to people. Lucas whole story arc was about Luke bringing back the Jedi but changing the parts that were bad. Then Yoda, Obi Wan and Anakin all basically congratulate him on it at the end. The student becomes the master
Of course the sequels ignore all this but they didn’t care so why should I
What I said in
and also:
I like this interpretation of RotJ but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't intentional. They hint at the Jedi being flawed but don't actually commit to it.
It very much was intentional, there’s commentaries/interviews where the director of ROTJ and the co writer Lawrence Kasdan were both not understanding why Luke would ignore Yoda and Obi Wan again after he did it last time and it fricked everything up.
Lucas told them it was because ESB was about failure and the consequences of not listening to wiser teachers. But by ROTJ, Luke is a true Jedi. And him rejecting their counsel that time was to show that there’s a time to listen and obey, and a time to stand up and fight against what you’re told when you truly believe you’re right and the old way is wrong. Basically him fully grown up and self actualising.
Lucas had a surprising amount of depth for the overall arcs and story
I guess that's true, I never really looked at the Council as existing in the OT at all, but Yoda and Obi-Wan ARE attempting to guide him the same way they did with Anakin in the pre-quels. I think the reason I'm fascinated with Qui Gon as a character is because he's the first time in the films we see somebody so thoroughly opposed to the council's ways. Making the comparison to knights; The Council act as knights in the authoritative sense. "X breaks the code, so we must purge X'. But Qui Gon is very much the old-school, ultra-religious knight. Even threatening to turn against the order itself.
Qui Gon was specifically a character created to show what the Jedi were SUPPOSED to be like. How they were before they became what they were in phantom menace, He isn’t a dogmatic butthole who sits in a palace on coruscant and judges children for being scared.
The Jedi council was the culmination of thousands of years of complacency and integration into the political system of the republic. Something that clearly isn’t really compatible with what the Jedi are actually meant to do. I mean just think about it, Jedi are meant to be servants of the people, yet they literally live separate to them all, in a luxurious palace, on top of a city planet where there’s billions of poor suffering people below them. It’s not subtle
Qui Gon is stated to far exceed the deeds and talent to be a Jedi Master on the council. But he isn’t because of politics and because he fundamentally wouldn’t agree with most of the shit they do or decide.
Lucas and plenty others have stated that if Qui Gon had lived and thus trained Anakin. He wouldn’t have fallen to the dark side. Because Qui Gon would have had more nuance and advice and willingness to help Anakin than just “let go dude, just stop caring”. Qui Gon would have 100% returned to free anakins mother for example, they wouldn’t live together but he’d be happy knowing she was free and safe, Padme stuff would still happen but Qui Gon wouldn’t judge. Sure, Jedi aren’t allowed to do this… but Qui Gon literally stated he would train Anakin without the councils approval. So they wouldn’t see Anakin as a real Jedi anyway. Maybe even expell Qui Gon for it
>The Jedi council was the culmination of thousands of years of complacency and integration into the political system of the republic. Something that clearly isn’t really compatible with what the Jedi are actually meant to do.
That was one of the best points Plagueis made to Sidious in Luceno's book: the Jedi viewed Republic policy as being the actual will of the Force, when in reality if that were true the Jedi would be running the Republic.
I don't think Vader's redemption is an indictment of the Jedi, even if proves that the Dark Side doesn't have to "forever dominate your destiny." Vader even confesses that Obi-Wan once had the same attitude Luke did and Vader presumably told Obi-Wan to get fricked. Luke just had a unique connection and insight into Vader that they didn't, and despite that Luke is still completely wrong about how things would turn out and he very nearly dies.
The Jedi literally told Luke that there was no hope if he didn’t kill vader. Which he wouldn’t do because he loved his father. Something completely antithetical to the entire Jedi philosophy. That you wouldn’t kill a Sith Lord who caused incalculable suffering because you love him and believe you can redeem him without logical reason
Luke was even prepared and planning to just die on that second Death Star. He told the emperor soon he will be dead, and Palpatine with him. He never actually planned to survive because his goal wasn’t to kill Palpatine and vader and leave. It was just to talk to his father and let his friends blow up the Death Star.
>The Jedi literally told Luke that there was no hope if he didn’t kill vader.
Because in the vast majority of circumstances that would have been true. Luke was in a different position and he knew that. Yoda and certainly Obi-Wan had no reason to think Vader had that vulnerability left because that vulnerability didn't exist for anybody else.
>antithetical
But it isn't.
>Luke was even prepared and planning to just die on that second Death Star.
Luke didn't even think Vader would take him to the Emperor. Vader doesn't turn into Luke is pleading and getting tortured to death. Luke was ultimately right, but it's not like it was an obvious fact that the Jedi overlooked because of dogma. Vader was a prick of enormous proportions.
but being nothing is awesome, what you talking about?
>have a swimming pool full of pure water
>"truly this is balance"
>darksidegay shows up, starts taking a piss in the pool
>"dude what the frick, stop."
>"DON'T YOU KNOW THE POOL WILL ONLY BE BALANCED WHEN IT'S 50% PISS AND 50% WATER???"
I hate Darksidegays so fricking much
The pool pissing analogy is genius.
Frick DarksideBlack folk.
>have a swimming pool full of pure water
>"truly this is balance"
>it is quickly infested with algae and other microorganisms because actual pure water is highly unnatural
See? I can make stupid, self-serving analogies too.
Darksidepiggies are oinking as they shit and piss all over my perfectly pure swimming pool that I'm doing my best at keeping perfectly filtered.
>filtered
So, maintaining an incredibly unnatural state. The ban on attachments was the Jedi equivalent of chlorine tablets.
Stop pissing in my pool, Sithpiggy.
And this is the equivalent of getting triggered over microaggressions.
Stop pissing in my pool, you're ruining everything. >"Dude, can't you see that Algae wants to grow in your pool??? LEMME TAKE A SHIT IN IT"
Kill all sith 0ABY
>you're ruining everything
Then make up better analogies so I can't come in and ruin them.
STOP SHITTING IN MY POOL, SITHgay
MY ANALOGY IS PERFECT, YOU'RE PROVING IT.
>pointing out basic flaws in reasoning and argument makes me a Sithgay
Boy, I hope you don't consider yourself a Jedi. The order was already fricked, but geeze.
What you call pure water is actually undrinkable distilled water.
This shit is like a reverse strawman where you present your side as being much better than it is.
Technically you can drink distilled water, but it will taste bad and increase the likelihood of a mineral deficiency.
Piss was just going home to its natural state. It was always meant to be in the water.
t. Sith were right all along
When you think about it. The rule of two was genius
>Jedi think sith are all dead
>hundreds of years pass
>sith keep getting stronger and passing it down in secret
>jedi become complacent and don’t even know how they’d fight a Sith Lord if they met one because nobody has seen one for so long
>jedi have now become so weak and comfy they aren’t prepared to face a single Sith Lord and his plan
No wonder Sith always kill so many Jedi. They’re just way better trained for it. Jedi were too busy meditating on how sex is bad while the sith trained by hunting packs of Jedi stranded on planets, where failure meant death
The Rule of Two plan works until the Sith are victorious. Then they kind of just self-destruct in the end.
Yeah but that’s pretty much how the sith always work.
The entire reason they made the rule of two to begin with is because the Sith killed each other so much with in fighting over who gets to be top dog that it became obvious they’d never beat the Jedi
To be a Sith is to invite conflict and exert control.
Once you’ve achieved that… if there are no more enemies to kill, what’s left?
They basically NEED enemies to exist to function. To the point they end up creating their own enemies. They train their apprentices with the explicit knowledge on both sides that one day the apprentice will attempt to kill the master to usurp control. Either the apprentice wins and proves they are superior, or the master wins and thus needs to try again with a new apprentice.
Jedi can at least exist meaningfully as diplomats and guardians without sith existing.
>jedi have now become so weak and comfy they aren’t prepared to face a single Sith Lord and his plan
>except Mace Windu who would've killed Palpatine if not for Anakin fricking up and ruining everything
You think that was a coincidence?
As per a lot of sources, yeah, that was a massive coincidence.
What exactly would the senate and Anakin thimk of a Jedi master killing the democratically elected Chancellor of the republic?
Nobody outside the Jedi even really knows what sith are, so saying he was totally a Sith, trust me, sorry but only I was the witness everyone else in the room is dead. Won’t really cut it
That's actually an interesting alternate timeline scenario.
>Anakin kills Palpatine/let's Mace kill him
>Padme lives and they raise the twins
>The empire never arises but the Jedi Order is fricked for having killed the Chancellor
What next?
Padme becomes Chancellor with Anakin being her close advisor. He leaves the Jedi and their marriage is open. He demands the Jedi be removed from the republic system and kicked out of their temple, cut off from republic funds etc
Clone troopers enforce this. Any Jedi who don’t peacefully leave get killed by Anakin and clones. Most Jedi would just leave and meditate on how they brought this on themselves and it was probably a blessing in disguise.
New Jedi temple is on Yavin 4
That sounds about right, but I feel like even with Palpatine dead, Anakin and Padme have different core values by this point.
Yeah, and Maul. Who wasn’t even a real sith. Just an assassin trained by one (Palpatine master was still alive in phantom menace, so Palpatine wasn’t allowed to train a real apprentice)
Maul Killed a fricking Jedi Master who was considered one of the best duellists alive. And he wasn’t even fully trained
I found it stupid because it requires generations of psychopaths to submit to this long-term plan someone else came up with instead of indulging themselves or pursuing other interests. The chain could have easily broken at any time and required a truly autistic level of hatred toward the Jedi to maintain.
Wasn't the point of it to essentially make conga line of Master-Student betrayels until they power crept their way into a Mega Sith?
Of course, that would mean actually following the rule of two, which I think most Sith only kinda loosely did, when convenient.
The temptation to the dark side has never been presented to be convincing. Especially when most protagonists are boy scouts.
It always seemed to me it’s kind of like a drug if you’re force sensitive. You literally get a force high from doing evil shit as a Sith. It makes you stronger and makes you feel good
I’ll add the emotional highs seem to literally empower them. E.g. Maul survives being cut in half for years from sheer hatred for Obi Wan.
Vader survives Mustafar, shocking even Palpatine. Because his pure anger sustained him. The SECOND he stops being dark side in ROTJ he dies.
Interesting how the Jedi accept death without fear. And get to be force ghosts. While the sith seek physical immortality and will live even in the most agonising circumstances
>The SECOND he stops being dark side in ROTJ he dies.
Nah, the force lighting destroyed his life support system.
In the Vader comics he has his life support fricked up a bunch of times and just forces himself to live through sheer Will and force power. Yeah he can’t live like that forever. But long enough to get his suit fixed or replaced
There was no reason for him to stay alive after all her did, he would probably be executed anyway.
Yeah. Pretty much. But like I said Jedi don’t really fear death. He was cool with dying because he no longer lived for physical purposes or anger. His “tell your sister, you were right…” and “you already have (saved me)” said it all
Here's the thing I don't get. Palpatine doesn't seem to be particularly angry or hateful most of the time. He's sadistic as frick, but he's usually gleeful about it. 95% of the time he's doing what he loves and he loves what he does and everything is going how he wants it to go. So where is he getting his power from? Is he secretly always angry about something?
I can't imagine sadism is a Light Side emotion dude.
>Mousecucks actually think Filoni was the first to play with that idea
The EU was full of that. Unsurprisingly, the content your master Mickey deemed unsuitable was better than anything Filoni and his cronies have ever conceived.
Now go back to your containment thread and have a nice day.
she became one of the only characters in canon to be considered "grey", ex jedi, ex sith, just wants to live her life and sometimes uses the dark side for good actions and deeds
Nah. There was even in the old EU the whole stuff with the light and dark side. The Jedi, when they were first appeared, simply tapped into the force. There was a light and dark side, but they strived for balance as it was shown on how they lived on Typhon which was the cradle of the Jedi order. The planet was one big force-sensitive place with two moons that both represented the light and dark side. If a Jedi leaned too much to the dark side then they'd be sent to meditate on the one that represent the light side to balance it out. Same if someone leaned too much into the light side and were sent to the dark side moon to meditate.
The true Jedi were all about balance between light and dark side (but not being a dick) until the whole Dark Jedi thing happened, the Jedi went to the light side completely while the Dark Jedi grew bitter and hateful when they were sent into exile while their Jedi brethren thought they'd cool off (which they didn't, they found Korriban instead, conqured the Sith, created the Sith Order and the rest is history).
All later Jedi Order members since the 1st war with the Sith were all into the light side until Luke Skywalker brought back the whole balance thing in the books which resulted in Jedi later on using stuff like force lighting.
Then again force lightning isn't even a true dark side power and will go with the philosophy of Kyle Katarn about how you use the force. And looking at it some force powers would have multiple non-lethal applications like say force lightning. It could, depending on how weak and/or long it would be, be used it to restart someone's heart, stun an enemy, recharge a battery or kickstart a generator.
I mean the whole thing with the dark side is not to let it consume you like the Sith have it. You calm down and simply meditate over this when the dark side is calling to you and accept the fact it will always be there.
Was there at any point a light side villain?
I don't mean as in "oh the Jedi are flawed" or "this Jedi fell to the dark side", I mean straight up using the light to defend horrible things
I don't think Star Wars is mature enough of a platform to even contemplate such a thing. The closest I can think of is that time that Mace and company "aggressively mind-tricked" Cad Bane into giving up info. Maybe it was not technically using the Dark Side, but it was pretty fricking suspect.
In the old EU Jorus Cilbaoth, or whatever the frick his name was, and his clone Joruus, and HIS clone Joruuus, who made Luuke, and HIS clone Luuuke, were all light side using badguys. They were all completely insane.
Also, at various points in time the Jedi order as a whole has committed atrocities while remaining rigidly lightsided. The lightside is, axiomatically, balance and detachment. The darkside is, axiomatically, unbalance and attachment. As long as you're committing atrocities in a detached manner while balanced, you're on the lightside. The incident that sparked Revan going rogue was when the Jedi council divined a prophesy wherein Padawans would have some kind of atrocity committed against them and go rogue because of it. So, the Jedi Council decided that the best course of action would be to wipe out all of the Padawans. Of course, they didn't get them all, and the survivors went rogue.
Joruus the clone was blatantly Dark Side. He had near zero emotional control and lashed out at random. The guy was just nuts enough to call himself a Jedi.
I don't recall that being the incident that caused Revan to go rogue. Also it was not the Jedi council that committed that crime but a smaller auxiliary group of masters.
The Force is meant to have a dark side, that’s like why there’s a dark side deity on Mortis.
Not like there’s any actual message behind “light side dark side” because Star Wars is trash for the ultimate breed of consoomer manchildren. Is darkside good to have or bad to have and use? Is it more powerful or not and if not then what even is the point of switching to it if it is obviously self-destructive? What the frick did you even mean by ‘Anakin restored balance to the force’?
They never even decided any of this shit and they never will and that’s why star wars shilling morons will make baseless headcanons about it all until the end of time pretending like it’s deep and well thought out instead of realising there was never any thought to begin with
>kids like it black and white
>teenagers and manchildren like it gray
>adults like it black and white
You know I'm right, even if you won't admit it.
They should have left it as B&W because the gray never worked
>real adults have the same tastes as children
Interesting assertion.
homie please, this dude's about as dark side as it gets. Views the world in a simplistic, self-aggrandizing manner, and arrogantly thinks he knows everything and then throws a tantrum whenever his dumb bullshit is called out for what it is.
Also, idea's been done about a million times before, and way better than this shit show. And it never stuck because it's even more shallow than any kind of duality, which can actually get pretty deep if you actually explore it and the necessary relations that must exist there.
You all put way too much thought into the philosophical questions of a dumb space opera about wizards doing swordfights
>muh balance
the position of a fool and a coward, one either too stupid or afraid to declare what they want.
Liu Kang best timekeeper
on that note I wonder if they'll ever show how fujin's 'perfect peace' timeline turned out
I'm sure it got wrecked eventually. Everything once apart becomes whole, but everything whole will eventually fly apart.
>"from my point of view the Jedi are evil"
>meanwhile, in Sith territory:
Not really. Star Wars wasn't built to sustain really any sort of moral complexity. All the attempts to add whether that be the prequels political corruption and conspiracy or the bendu/grey jedi shit has fallen flat because of that. It was made to be a fairy tale.
This is dumb.
The balance of good and evil is only maintained by lionizing the good, because evil is the default state. In other words, the battle of good and evil is not to ever win, but to prevent everything from falling into chaos. Life is good, and non-existence is bad. Life is in constant struggle against death. There is no in-between these larger concepts. Equilibrium itself is not a force.
The concept of the Force, i.e. an energy field created by all living things, is not compatible with the traditional good vs evil paradigm. Like it or not, passion, competition, suffering, violence, etc. are all part of life. So are cooperation, protection, not being in angry mode 24/7, etc. Marrying the Jedi and Sith to the two sides of this coin sounds good at first, but the more anyone really bothers to think about it the messier it gets.
>The concept of the Force, i.e. an energy field created by all living things, is not compatible with the traditional good vs evil paradigm
It absolutely is, as long as that paradigm of good and evil is defined by life and death, and not the other way around.
>Like it or not, passion, competition, suffering, violence, etc. are all part of life
Of course they are, they are part of the struggle. But you can be passionate for life. You can compete to be good. You can fight against tyrants to protect the weak. In fact, being good is intrinsically tied to the capacity to suffer.
I'll repeat again, equilibrium is not a force. It's the interplay between good an evil, which exist in various ratios in the world and in individuals. That doesn't change the fact there is absolute good, and that's what should be promoted.
>death
The problem there is that the dark side isn't death. It's the embodiment of the red and tooth and claw method of staying alive. What I'm saying is not that Good and Evil cannot exist alongside the Force, it's that the archtypical divide is moronic.
>NOOOO
>stop posting like a homosexual, homosexual.
>No I want all the cool dark side powers but I don't want to be evil
The middle path is just for idiots who have no clue how the force works.
You can't have all the cool dark side powers without going full cackling moron. Or at least that's how it should work.
>doing away with that lame binary fairy tale bullshit was a good idea.
Agree. He's introducing magic and other bullshit to make the universe feel more mysterious and less "solved". It keeps things fantastical in a science fantasy universe.
Agree. The more you tap into one side, the more of that power you have.
A grey Jedi is a master of none, and should rely more on their swordsmanship.
Sith have the better aesthetic.
Dirt, Dust, and the occasional statue?
frick you korriban was kino in kotor2
A history, culture, species, and no addiction to brown robes and mandatory navel-gazing.
Star Wars is moronic. News at 11.
On paper, the Bendu should be the dumbest fricking thing ever, but I gotta give it to Filoni, he pulled it off. The Bendu is fricking keno.
I'm sure he stole it from someone or somewhere else. That homosexual is incapable of independent creation.