personal preferences aside
if we try to be objective
TLA is probably the greatest western cartoon of all time
personal preferences aside. if we try to be objective. TLA is probably the greatest western cartoon of all time
personal preferences aside
if we try to be objective
TLA is probably the greatest western cartoon of all time
If Amon was actually a non-bender who wanted to take down the benders, then yes. But what he actually turned out to be was so stupid and disappointing.
It would be cooler to have a true non-bender as the main villain
this is honestly high up among the things that kill Korra for me. Varrick fricking kills me though.
Why does being a bender delegitimize any of his arguments? That's like saying your race makes you unable you critical towards your own race. Stupid. I never stopped supporting Amon.
its not so much that the arguments are delegitimized as Amon was a liar and manipulator who was, among other things, inspiring nonbenders to commit terrorism for his own motives. Using your race metaphor, imagine if, like, Malcolm X had turned out to be a white dude in black face? Hell, we don't even have to invent a scenario, look what happened to Rachel Dolezal
Race and bending aren't the same. You can't be de-racialized, its not something that can be taken away from you.
Amon wouldn't keep being a bender to rule as a tyrant after he eradicated bending. Hell, he might even allow certified benders to remain to do certain specialized labor if they were like, a poor farmer or something, the penalty for using bending offensively being imprisonment and total de-bending. His issue was he'd personally seen bending being used in horrific, corrupt ways, and he genuinely wanted to punish those who would abuse their power. He literally only used bending
1. To de-bend criminals and politicians
2. In a blind panic after getting knocked into water
Fighting the fricking avatar, he just kept ducking and weaving
>Amon wouldn't keep being a bender to rule as a tyrant after he eradicated bending. Hell, he might even allow certified benders to remain to do certain specialized labor if they were like, a poor farmer or something, the penalty for using bending offensively being imprisonment and total de-bending
that's just like your opinion/ head canon man and I never said race and bending were equivalent, I was using someone else's comparison to make a point. If Amon had just come out and said who he was and what his opinions were, that would be one thing. He went full painted on scarface and invented a fake tragic back story to emotionally manipulate people to his point of view and helping him potentially against their self interest (I'm assuming a lot of actual nonbender equalists ended up in jail?).
>Amon wouldn't keep being a bender to rule as a tyrant after he eradicated bending.
I thought that was his whole plan? To rule by virtue of being the only bender left?
So you're saying that Black Manta is "Meh" tier?
>Using your race metaphor, imagine if, like, Malcolm X had turned out to be a white dude in black face? Hell, we don't even have to invent a scenario, look what happened to Rachel Dolezal
Honestly, why does it matter? Both ideologies are heavily flawed. The messenger doesn't make more or less correct.
Care about what?
>the messenger doesn't make more or less correct
it does to the people the messenger was preaching to. The Equalists felt betrayed and abandoned Amon when the truth came out (just like in real life when the black community rejected Dolezal when she was revealed to be a white woman). That's why it matters.
If pointing out Leftist hypocrisy is all it took to defeat them, then there wouldn't be any Leftist movements.
I do hate the bloodbending thing but I wouldn't mind if Amon had waterbending and gave it up to get energybending.
And yet Rachel Dolezal went from being an NAACP chairwoman and an African Studies professor to posting feet pics on OnlyFans. Funny how that works.
Amon didn't actually care about any of that
Honestly I think it makes the character interesting, turns him into a sort of self hating racist from all the abuse from his dad. Could've been interesting. But they don't really treat it like that, his reveal destroys his arguments and movement and shows him to have been a liar and manipulator instead. It ends up making the whole situation way less interesting and just seems like a way to get rid of a problem and story they didn't have real resolution for.
>Honestly I think it makes the character interesting, turns him into a sort of self hating racist from all the abuse from his dad. Could've been interesting. But they don't really treat it like that, his reveal destroys his arguments and movement and shows him to have been a liar and manipulator instead.
Korra is shit more news at 11.
I fricking hate this scene in retrospect.
>Moral greyness isn't about who we are 'supposed to hate', We were supposed to hate Rorschach but we ended up loving him. Moral greyness is about the ability to see a perspective were we can side with them. It involves an active thinking but the audience rather than just passively being told to who to like and who to dislike. Because morality is relative the observer (the audience) plays a part in judging who is right and who is wrong.
Moral greyness in practice is when a character the writers like/hate does something objectively bad/good. Look at the Castlevania cartoon. It is Antichrist apologia but they made that priest a pedophile child murderer in 11 hour of season 3. People who say that evil doesn't exist don't act like evil doesn't exist. The joke about people serial killers being concern about being perceived as racist is reality.
>it does to the people the messenger was preaching to. The Equalists felt betrayed and abandoned Amon when the truth came out (just like in real life when the black community rejected Dolezal when she was revealed to be a white woman). That's why it matters.
True but we aren't really talking about that. We are talking about the audience not the in-universe people.
> We are talking about the audience not the in-universe people.
We’re talking about why Amon secretly being a water bender undercuts / ruins him and the points he was making (which the show demonstrates in a way that mirrors what has happened in similar cases in real life). Maybe you feel differently but I always thought he’d have been better and his criticisms would have been stronger as an actual non bender revolutionary and I think I’m not alone in that opinion per other posts in this thread.
I haven't seen the castlevania cartoon. Regardless of what it is it doesn't change reality.
I already explained this
>Everyone believes evil exists in the relative sense. Ie evil=what harms me or something I like.
So yeah everyone believes in evil. And more greyness is just about the audience not being sure who to call good and who to call evil. Whether or not it's grey isn't based on the art work or the artist's intention. It's based on the observer.
One observer says.
"This work is morally black and white. That side is clearly good and that side is clearly bad".
and another says.
"This is morally grey to me because I am not sure who to root for."
They are both right from their own perspective. If you get rid of the observer the art work is neither black/white nor morally grey. It can't have those until it is observed.
>So yeah everyone believes in evil. And more greyness is just about the audience not being sure who to call good and who to call evil. Whether or not it's grey isn't based on the art work or the artist's intention. It's based on the observer.
Nobody is pure good or evil. However actions are easy to identify as moral, immoral, or amoral.
>"This is morally grey to me because I am not sure who to root for."
That isn't the same as who is right or wrong. Authorial intent is real. You can tell who writer wants people to side with and it isn't always based on sound idea of good and evil.
>That isn't the same as who is right or wrong. >Authorial intent is real. You can tell who writer wants people to side with and it isn't always based on sound idea of good and evil.
I already went over this. Just because we were supposed to think of Rorschach as the bad guy doesn't mean we do. It's the observer, not the author that judges morality.
>However actions are easy to identify as moral, immoral, or amoral.
Easy by the observer. And each observer is going to identify them as something different. Haven't you ever fricking watched something and had a different opinion about the morality of something? Do you just agree with the author on everything like a fricking robot?
This isn't that complicated. Even fricking kids know how to say "I think he is the real bad guy because ____" This isn't an argument you "win" or a math equation you "prove or disprove". What are you even getting at? That there is a single "correct and incorrect" way to judge every single fictional story that will ever be made?
>I already went over this. Just because we were supposed to think of Rorschach as the bad guy doesn't mean we do. It's the observer, not the author that judges morality.
Here is the thing. Author decides everything that happens in the story. There is no such thing as a random event. If Alan Moore wrote that Ozymandias' plan as "working", we are expected to take it face value. The story is not real. The characters are not real. It is very easy to orchestrate a situation that "justifies" a character's actions. There is something called perspective. e-girlta is one of the most prominent examples of an unreliable narrator. It isn't the norm to question the narrator. The story shows that you could write a monster as hero of his own story.
>This isn't that complicated. Even fricking kids know how to say "I think he is the real bad guy because ____"
This isn't the slam dunk that you think it is. I chose Castlevania as an example because how the writers and audience goes against common sense morality because of feelings. It is the same reason why serial killers get love letters in prison.
>retrospect
In prospect, and introspect I disrespect every aspect of this suspect analysts.
Why does hermit Toph know any of this? I mean she's a wise old woman but has Korra herself relayed all of her avataring stories?
Why does she take a neutral stance on "having goals yo" Imagine she said
>Fire Nation only wanted to unite the world.
Why does she relate metal poisoning to trauma? She's not a medium but we're lead to believe she understand the swamp spirit's intentions. If she was after all this time now spiritual enough to know this: why did she A) tell Korra if she wanted to let the swamp guide her B) Not tell her if she wanted to help Korra herself?
Why does she fricking gloss over that Uniloc WANTED PERSONAL ULTIMATE POWER and the "release the spirits", which isn't actually an objective good, was actually a cover-story? Like that's separate from Amon having a crazy-bad take on "freedom". It's like saying Professor Moriarty valued a good education.
>Why does hermit Toph know any of this? I mean she's a wise old woman but has Korra herself relayed all of her avataring stories?
She already explained it. It is muh spirit vines.
>Why does she take a neutral stance on "having goals yo" Imagine she said
The muh extremism argument is a midwit take.
>Why does she fricking gloss over that Uniloc WANTED PERSONAL ULTIMATE POWER and the "release the spirits", which isn't actually an objective good, was actually a cover-story? Like that's separate from Amon having a crazy-bad take on "freedom". It's like saying Professor Moriarty valued a good education.
I never liked that part.
My issue with Amon is that his ideology is dumb yet nobody in the show is smart enough to counter it.
This is such a moronic scene. 1) Amon being a bloodbender doesn't actually disprove his argument. 2) The scar doesn't disprove or prove Korra's claim.
>Amon being a bloodbender doesn't actually disprove his argument
What argument?
>I am not a waterbender and a bloodbender...
Well it's a pretty succinct counter-argument there.
>The spirits personally chose me to eliminate benders
Obviously a lie with that in mind.
>That the nonbenders are oppressed by benders
Yeah it has no bearing on proving or disproving the state of society. But the actual fact is Amon failed to be proven right by any real elements in the show. Unless his own willingness to kill his most loyal supporter over discovering he's a bender counts as bender oppression.
Pretty funny how Azula is omitted because she would be in Meh Tier or Shit Tier and nobody would find that acceptable.
Yeh because this list is so restrictive and ironically a surface level view of villains
There's nothing wrong with villains who are just evil for the sake of being evil. Those types exist in real life anyway. Frick this stupid list.
real life isn't the standard, the depth of the character is. you could just say "aang got cancer 2 months after starting his adventure, because it happens in real life sometimes" but it wouldn't be a good story
besides, "evil just for evil" is insanity with less steps.
That's fair.
>stupid commie tantrum that seeks to make the world a more miserable and boring place just because benders can be mean sometimes
>hard to find fault in
This. Everyone believes evil exists. Denying it rarely make the person more nuanced. People who make a song and dance about morally grey villains end up making painfully obvious who we are suppose to hate and who are supposed to like.
Everyone believes evil exists in the relative sense. Ie evil=what harms me or something I like.
Moral greyness isn't about who we are 'supposed to hate', We were supposed to hate Rorschach but we ended up loving him. Moral greyness is about the ability to see a perspective were we can side with them. It involves an active thinking but the audience rather than just passively being told to who to like and who to dislike. Because morality is relative the observer (the audience) plays a part in judging who is right and who is wrong.
>People who make a song and dance about morally grey villains end up making painfully obvious who we are suppose to hate and who are supposed to like.
GRRM is probably the biggest example of this
No one in real life thinks "I will do this because it is evil." They are all the good guy's in their mind or at least not the bad guys.
Yeah sadistic people don't exist
You're on a website filled with people who are sadistic in that they enjoy insulting and stomping on each other in arguments. You don't think they are motivated by "a desire to evil" and neither do they. They have their own word view in which they are not the bad guy; they think their target is the bad guy and deserves it.
Anon, there's plenty of people who don't think that their victims deserve what's happening, it's just that the perpetrator finds that their action and/or the victim's response to it to be amusing.
Swap Amon and Zaheer.
It still bugs me that Equalist's point was never really addressed. If you're born as a non-bender, you're at a constant disadvantage in every single situation to someone who is a bender. Having some a "non bender president" doesn't really solve anything, the inequality is always going to be there and your options in life will be limited if you don't have magic powers.
It is but in the most bullshit way, basically the idea is "the racism was all in your head, bro" Which wouldn't be as bad if it wasn't magic hobos spouting it in half a minute.
The only legitimate argument for the Equalist is the banning of Qi blocking schools and the curfews.
I blame weebs for this moronic meme
Why? Westoids love that kind of shit.
The chart is way older than that, pretty sure it was some griffithgay who made it
This shit only works for anime since their villains without depth are lame as hell, cartoon villains never had this issue and they should stay evil for the sake of it
>The chart is way older than that, pretty sure it was some griffithgay who made it
I feel that meme mentality predates that meme.
>This shit only works for anime since their villains without depth are lame as hell, cartoon villains never had this issue and they should stay evil for the sake of it
Isaac proves that W*st*rn cartoon fans are wienersuckers that are easily controlled. The israelites aren't wrong to treat them like cattle.
> This shit only works for anime since their villains without depth are lame as hell,
You are moronic there are plenty of iconic and extremely fun anime villains that are as shallow as your cartoon trash ones.
Why are you here Cinemaphile tourist
it prompts discussion
Not really. We are just repeating the same fricking points till the end of time.
Not everyone has heard those points
if you've heard every single point, maybe you should make threads that bring something new to the table instead of just complaining
Maybe you should find something original to talk about instead.
Not him but people would rather respond to the same old baits and points that have been talked to death. That's why those threads get hundreds of replies every day and push anything "original| off". The thing that gets the most attention online is being inflammatory. You can pose an intersting discussion and it will get like 20 replies while something obviously meant to just get people yelling at each other will get 200 easily.
Nothing is original
Something original to you is not original to plenty of other people, and then they'd start these same whiny talking points that you're making right now
best solution is to entertain conversation you enjoy in good faith and don't complain
>if you've heard every single point, maybe you should make threads that bring something new to the table instead of just complaining
There's not much to bring anymore. Especially if by people saying Amon was right (or the idea of what Amon said is right) takes things to its full conclusion then the Avatar world falls apart and we are left with our world.
To be fair Ozai was probably abused by his dad too and never had anyone like Iroh in his life. It's not wild to assume that royal courts in the Earth Kingdom and Fire Nation are viper pits and breed contemptable people rather than "theyre evil lol". Korra villains bad tho
I can't tell if threads like these are bait are just morons typing. You've got a huge claim "this is the greatest ever" and than do not present a single arguement to back it up. Nothing to discuss. And here's an image that is not related to the statement which postulates without supporting.
these tiers are shit and nebulous. it doesn't have the mommy tier, where the villains are right because they're hot.
At least Amon was hot. He would have been hotter if his scar and everything were real though.
based Amorra shipper
I keep toying with the idea of making a TLOK rewrite/AU more in-line with ATLA's worldbuilding while also keeping with the urbanizing sensibilities Bryke wanted. Part of it involves Amorra, but it's lowkey. Korra would be like if the Avatar was also Doc Savage, a real Renaissance Woman, leading a talented crew of nonbenders to travel the world on adventures, fight villains, and use bending and sciences to help her fellow man. It would be very pulpy and would bring to mind stories like Doc Savage and the Shadow, only set in an East Asian thing....
You had me at Amorra
>Korra joining forces with Amon to fight against Tarrlok and his corruption
Enemies to Lovers. But in all seriousness, that sounds like it would have been way better.
This is what they took from us
I'm pretty confident the original idea for Amon was that his fake backstory was the real deal: the Nick leak from earlier this year included the pitch bible, and it seems Amon's original characterization was meant to keep him being a mystery. Then there's the potential impact of Book One getting extended from a mini-series to a full season changing things.
Personally, I've always considered that Amon wasn't meant to be a Waterbender, and that the whole twist surrounding him and Tarrlok was something added in at the last minute (alongside the pattern Korra would repeat of making the radical antagonist suddenly evil because the creators are neolibs - plenty of capeshit and fantasy like HP, the MCU, MHA, and others do it) considering how inconsequential it all ends up being. Plus there's Bryan and Mike's statements on including political imagery for the sake of it looking cool, but also cutting out debate scenes to not bore the audience like the SW prequel trilogy did.
>and that the whole twist surrounding him and Tarrlok was something added in at the last minute
It felt very last minute. The whole twist was like a soap opera. I wish the fan theories about him using advanced chi-blocking were true.
Same. I like to think in a better world where Bryke weren't neolibs, Book One would end with Korra joining forces with Amon to fight against Tarrlok and his corruption. Through understanding the plight of the marginalized peoples of RC, Korra's surrenders her ego and thus becomes more spiritual, allowing herself to unlock airbending in a key moment to stop Tarrlok.
Would it fix the core problems with TLOK? No, but it would at least be more consistent and maybe more fun than what we actually got.
There's more evidence that it was a last minute change: Amon's scars are WAY too detailed to be then followed up with "it was makeup", Amon always being designed as a foil to Korra per the artbook, along with how Amon and Tarrlok are Yakone's children yet HAVE HIS FRICKING POST-SURGERY FACIAL FEATURES
It's a twist that makes no sense because there's NOTHING indicating up until that ass-pull a twist was even supposed to exist.
>Amon and Tarrlok were originally NOT related during production. Whether Yakone was related to Tarrlok is unknown, but it seems likely.
>When the choice was made, it was done AFTER Yakone's design was finalized and Amon's scars were finalized on his model
>so they had to not only contradict the big reveal of Amon being a victim of bending, but also finagle how he and Tarrlok could even be related to fricking Yakone
I could stand Amon being evil because of him being a victim, for as neoliberal as the "radical bad" angle is, namely because it was at least something explored in ATLA twice with Jet and Hama. But making him related to Tarrlok (and killing them both off for no reason) absolutely comes across like something thrown in just because they didn't know what else to do with either of them or their plotlines.
AND we know the Equalists were originally meant to come back, something Bryke teased after Book One aired, but they never did: they instead served as minions for Hundun in the video game of all places.
How does make up explain the lip / mouth deformation?
He was bloodbending himself to pull the left-side of his lips slightly into his mouth and turn so it looks like the rest of his scared skin on his face in a resting position.
It's possible a retainer, or glue or other stage props hidden under the makeup or in his mouth could produce the same distortion but it's really hard to argue those would have have been removed the same time as the makeup by happenstance water exposure when he fell unconscious.
this is a much better and more thorough answer than I expected or the question deserved. Thanks.
Per your point about unlikelihood of a retainer, etc. being washed away, I think his unconsciousness is a point for the blood bending explanation.
Korra's villains don't count because her series is not canon.
What a shit meme template starting off that Amon's main motive wasnt muh equality but daddy issues post reveal.
>high tier
Does it count if the villain is delusional as all hell, and the wrongs against them are merely perceived, and not genuine malicious acts deliberately done against them?
I mean, unlike the movies, comics Killmonger was pretty good.
"T'Challa failed to save me, so frick him and frick Wakanda, shit's gonna burn"
TLOK failed because the protagonists never really destroy their antagonists on a matter of ideas clashing and the superior one (Good) triumphing (over Evil) in the end. Instead, it proposes themes and ideas that arcs revolve around and never really develops or dives into them. Most of the plot instead has pointless meandering and padding until things kick in towards the end where the antagonists are made to be suddenly evil, then lose because they destroy themselves, but are never actually proven WRONG in terms of what they believe. In the end, Korra has nothing to believe in while her enemies do. It's a story where the bad guys are the ones who are right, get turned evil by the creators (because they're neoliberal), and then die while the establishment conveniently does what the bad guys wanted but off-screen or in-between seasons.
These are just concepts. What matters is execution.
>Amon
>Elder God Tier
TLOK doesn't HAVE good villians.
nah Ben 10 mogs