it was pretty funny watching a bunch of nips get tortured to death because they believed a mangled translation of the bible, and the various jesuits struggle with this because they couldn't allow themselves to even concieve of the notion that mistranslation of the bible was even possible
This. Mistranslations occurred I'm sure, but their "version" of Christianity had the important tenants down. Also OP, the scene where the priests eat before praying and the spit the food out was pretty funny.
>their "version" of Christianity had the important tenants down.
it really didn't. it just looked close enough that most people weren't going to examine or question further.
But they taught in English. In the movie. Not in real life, I know. But you can't deny they taught in English in the movie since they spoke English with Portuguese accents which makes no sense if we were watching Portugese movie magic'd to English for us. If they were speaking their native tongue they wouldn't be stumbling over their words and struggling to express emotions.
>the jesuits were from portugal, speaking portuguese.
In real life. Not in this film's continuity. If they were speaking Portugese they would be able to speak clearly and articulately when talking to each other instead of >Ehh i ehope uhyou ehwill uhhhh
Not to even mention the obvious fact that the Padre they find who was also ethnically Portugese (per the movie), spoke English with no Portugese accent at all. Explain that if they're "actually speaking portugese"
the movie was made by an american, for american audiences. that's all the explanation needed.
2 years ago
Anonymous
So for Americans sake they had spiderman splutter away in fake portugese but NOT quigon, because if quigon did so, the americans would... what?
2 years ago
Anonymous
>if dey was speakin my monkeyspeak they'd bee speakin clearer!
yea okay pablo
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Perhaps in this alternate history, there has also been a union of Portugal and England under a single monarch.
I think it's simply the Pope, and Ireland rather than England. Ferreira was from Ireland. Another reason you know the young padres weren't speaking Portugese because very unlikely he would understand them.
2 years ago
Anonymous
who ya talkin to bruh
2 years ago
Anonymous
who ya talkin to bruh
oh. It's meant for
Let's not forget that in the film was filmed in Taiwan, with nothing to indicate it was not meant to be set there. This implies Japan had wrested control of the island from the Dutch, before the Chinese Ming loyalists were able to. That is, it's an alternate history.
Perhaps in this alternate history, there has also been a union of Portugal and England under a single monarch.
Let's not forget that in the film was filmed in Taiwan, with nothing to indicate it was not meant to be set there. This implies Japan had wrested control of the island from the Dutch, before the Chinese Ming loyalists were able to. That is, it's an alternate history.
Perhaps in this alternate history, there has also been a union of Portugal and England under a single monarch.
half the movie is people trying desperately to explain basic concepts and facts to rodrigues (garfield) and having reactions like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX6EF0zGC84
when he proves all the well crafted arguments, appeals, expressed facts, experiences, etc, completely failed to penetrate his "faith." he's supposed to come off as kinda dumb.
historically, the japanese had some experience with and knowledge of english before they had any contact with the portuguese, so the idea is the jesuits were trying to translate the gospel into japanese using every known word, from any language, that both the jesuits and the would-be converts both knew. throw in some confirmation bias, and the result is a completely fricked translation that just gets worse as it gets better.
Jesus cannot go against his own words. Only two options:
A) Satan spoke to him, told him to deny Christ
B) The Hollywood movie is typical satanic subversion
Matthew 10:33
King James Bible >But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Revelation 2:10 >10Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Look, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison to test you, and you will suffer tribulation for ten days. Be faithful even unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
They were still allowed to believe, the nip government was just obsessed with the symbolic act of making them step on an image of Jesus. But ultimately the image is just an image, not God.
the point was to get the krishitans to stop with the whole mangled death-cult version of christianity they'd been fed by showing them the priests/jesuits had also ditched it.
That doesn't really matter for the characters involved. They are still being forced to deny their faith or die. Even if the method does not technically constitute denial they still believe it does, so it does.
nah he's usually got some small measure of humor like pacino in heat (she's got a GREAT ASS) and cruise in collateral (you killed him? no i shot him, the bullets and the fall killed him)
but yeah there's not much
I agree with you, OP. After seeing people tied up and thrown in the ocean the protagonist should have made a quip to release the tension. It's really anxiety-inducing when you can't crack a smile.
Are christcucks really so mentally ill that they'd rather die than step on an image or say a few words?
Even if God ends up being real, I think you can make a pretty convincing case >Hey God, I'm really sorry about that time I stepped on image of your face, if I didn't do it they would've killed me and my whole family
This argument falls flat on it's face when you realize they'd achieve sainthood if they had died for being followers of Christ
it's ridiculously unbelievable that a church father could be held ransom with the lives of his congregation if the reason they are being killed is because of their religion
As martyrs they would have been welcomed in Heaven
the target of the act wasn't the jesuits, but the japanese converts. but the japanese converts were following a horribly mistranslated version of christianity, where they basically believed the more they suffered, without killing themselves, the better the chance of the sun not rising for three days, and then them dying and going to paradise. so they weren't eating or drinking more than the bare minimum, weren't cleaning, weren't generally working.
the problem is the jesuits could not even begin to concieve of the idea it was possible to mistranslate the word of god. because the word of god wasn't supposed to be just people talking to each other, the word of god is supposed to shine through and show people the Truth, the moment people are made aware of it.
Blessed check.
You forget that Christians believe in an eternal paradise. Why would anyone who sincerely believes that they are assured a place in Heaven if they don't break the rules on Earth ever break a single rule on Earth? Especially when dying for God's sake actually assures their position even more?
the target of the act wasn't the jesuits, but the japanese converts. but the japanese converts were following a horribly mistranslated version of christianity, where they basically believed the more they suffered, without killing themselves, the better the chance of the sun not rising for three days, and then them dying and going to paradise. so they weren't eating or drinking more than the bare minimum, weren't cleaning, weren't generally working.
the problem is the jesuits could not even begin to concieve of the idea it was possible to mistranslate the word of god. because the word of god wasn't supposed to be just people talking to each other, the word of god is supposed to shine through and show people the Truth, the moment people are made aware of it.
>This is a lie
except all of it is true. the japanese converts weren't christian, didn't understand scripture, or even have a close to accurate idea of who jesus was or what he did. they were some butt-fricked-inside-out monstrosity that worshiped priests and suffering. it would be centuries before actual japanese christians would come into existence. the kirishitan death cult was just suffering in vain, and it was the jesuit's fault.
Because it is not historical fact.
Listen, you are obviously some autist or schizo with an agenda. I don't want to rain on your parade too much but when you start lying about things for no reason you're stepping on people's toes.
2 years ago
Anonymous
how is it not historical fact that the initial jesuit attempts to convert the japanese to christianity were horribly mistranslated and resulted in a nonsensical death cult?
2 years ago
Anonymous
How is it not historical fact that the ocean is red? It just isn't.
2 years ago
Anonymous
except... that's what happened. the kirishitans didn't believe in anything remotely resembling the meaning of christian scripture. they only used a few names/rituals correct.
2 years ago
Anonymous
see
You can just keep repeating the lies if you want, it doesn't make them true.
2 years ago
Anonymous
okay, cover your ears and scream for it to stop. its not like you can check on this yourself in an instant.
ITS NOT LIKE THEY MADE A HISTORICALLY ACCURATE MOVIE ABOUT EXACTLY WHAT I AM SAYING OR ANYTHING
2 years ago
Anonymous
protestants opened the door for endless variations of jesusanity, sorry catholicuck
2 years ago
Anonymous
which, of course, has nothing to do with anything.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>dey not christians cause dey not doing the right magic rituals and stuff
2 years ago
Anonymous
they weren't christians because the jesuits of the time had close to no understanding of japanese, and completely botched every aspect of the initial attempts at translation.
like the inquisitor said, the japanese, at that point, had a better understanding of spanish/portuguese than the jesuits had of japanese, and this was years after the initial contact.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>this is true because the fictional movie had characters who opposed christianity say it was true
2 years ago
Anonymous
bruh, its a true story. not sure why you think its pure fiction.
>be man who's whole life is devoted to God and spreading it to others so that they would be saved >deny God not only going against everything you believe but essentially damning others as well
Kinda makes it a difficult choice for them
Lol at the end the moronic japs where worshipping a paganistic version of jesus. This movie shows why religions that tries to convert everyone always split into different heresies. Like christianity: latins kept catholicism, germans protestantism and greeks orthodoxy (and the stupid japs a literal sun jesus)
>the moronic japs where worshipping a paganistic version of jesus
They weren't. That's just what an apostate traitor said to justify his behavior in public.
They clearly were. The asian mindset was very different from the west. Clearly they wouldnt get the cultural context christianity is in. Its the same thing with hinduism to us, it is very hard to understand the concept of atman fully because we are not inside that tradition
Because people from other cultures have difficulty understanding foreign religious concepts. Imagine trying to make some peasant japanese understand greek concepts like the trinity and israeli profecies
I see. So you're just making things up and assuming that your understanding of the world is so all encompassing that your fiction accurately reflects reality.
am I supposed to ignore all the politics, the attempted colonization of japan by europeans in the same vain as the philippines and indochina? instead I'm supposed to boo hoo over spirituality or some shit?
Europeans (and americans) think they have the worlds best cultures and religion and they should be adopted by everone on earth. Suffice to say that this is impossible and create very degenerate anomalies like the philipines
nah he's usually got some small measure of humor like pacino in heat (she's got a GREAT ASS) and cruise in collateral (you killed him? no i shot him, the bullets and the fall killed him)
but yeah there's not much
am I supposed to ignore all the politics, the attempted colonization of japan by europeans in the same vain as the philippines and indochina? instead I'm supposed to boo hoo over spirituality or some shit?
every scene has the subtext of being able to do a superfriends style screenwipe to >MEANWHILE, AT THE HEADQUARTERS OF THE SPANISH INQUISITION
so lets break it down >jesuits contact japan during their warring lords period >christian nations will only trade with other christians >jesuits can't really understand japanese at all, or translate anything into it, but try anyway, because they think god will handle the heavy lifting >instead of telling these people to either learn japanese or frick off, a few lords "convert" their subjects to Christianity, to open up trade, for guns. >these lords still lose the warring lords period >but their converts are still there >fast forward >the now dominant government views the jesuits as agents of foreign subversion not only because of "trade-for-conversion," but also because the converts are worse than useless, because their version of the religion tells them to suffer as much as possible
The moment where the padre demands to be taken to the inquisitor and the Japanese lords look at him in confusion and then break into genuine laughter was such a brief and sudden mood shift in the story, it almost felt like a blooper that was accidentally left in
>japanese catholics are killed and tortured by the government >their religion is outlawed for centuries >the two cities which boast the biggest number of catholics in Japan get nuked
These guys just can’t catch a break.
That was in Macau, so Portuguese control. China was also not nice, just not as bad as Japan. Jesuits got to hang out with the emperor and share their scientific knowledge, but actual missionary efforts were tightly controlled.
Things were going well until dumber religious orders convinced the pope to ban ancestor worship and Confucianism, which the Jesuits had integrated into Christianity.
not religious but the scene where jesus speaks to him was kinda kino. It was just so comforting. He thought he had so much to explain and jesus was just like >dude I get it. I always get it.
Then what was the scene with him staring at himself at the water and seeing himself as Jesus going for, OP?
it was pretty funny watching a bunch of nips get tortured to death because they believed a mangled translation of the bible, and the various jesuits struggle with this because they couldn't allow themselves to even concieve of the notion that mistranslation of the bible was even possible
>no humor
Are you serious? Did you forget when he reveals the asiatics thought the priests were talking about the sun?
An extremely stupid bit in an otherwise good move.
Japanese son = musuko, sun = taiyō or hi
Portuguese son = filho, sun = sol
This. Mistranslations occurred I'm sure, but their "version" of Christianity had the important tenants down. Also OP, the scene where the priests eat before praying and the spit the food out was pretty funny.
>their "version" of Christianity had the important tenants down.
it really didn't. it just looked close enough that most people weren't going to examine or question further.
believing in Jesus is the more important tenant, they didn't think he was the sun, like the film says.
they didn't believe in jesus. they believed the sun would not rise for three days if they suffered enough, and then they'd go to paradise.
But they taught in English. In the movie. Not in real life, I know. But you can't deny they taught in English in the movie since they spoke English with Portuguese accents which makes no sense if we were watching Portugese movie magic'd to English for us. If they were speaking their native tongue they wouldn't be stumbling over their words and struggling to express emotions.
the movie was in english, the jesuits were from portugal, speaking portuguese.
>the jesuits were from portugal, speaking portuguese.
In real life. Not in this film's continuity. If they were speaking Portugese they would be able to speak clearly and articulately when talking to each other instead of
>Ehh i ehope uhyou ehwill uhhhh
Not to even mention the obvious fact that the Padre they find who was also ethnically Portugese (per the movie), spoke English with no Portugese accent at all. Explain that if they're "actually speaking portugese"
the movie was made by an american, for american audiences. that's all the explanation needed.
So for Americans sake they had spiderman splutter away in fake portugese but NOT quigon, because if quigon did so, the americans would... what?
>if dey was speakin my monkeyspeak they'd bee speakin clearer!
yea okay pablo
>Perhaps in this alternate history, there has also been a union of Portugal and England under a single monarch.
I think it's simply the Pope, and Ireland rather than England. Ferreira was from Ireland. Another reason you know the young padres weren't speaking Portugese because very unlikely he would understand them.
who ya talkin to bruh
oh. It's meant for
so he'd sound like the voice of authority
Let's not forget that in the film was filmed in Taiwan, with nothing to indicate it was not meant to be set there. This implies Japan had wrested control of the island from the Dutch, before the Chinese Ming loyalists were able to. That is, it's an alternate history.
Perhaps in this alternate history, there has also been a union of Portugal and England under a single monarch.
half the movie is people trying desperately to explain basic concepts and facts to rodrigues (garfield) and having reactions like
when he proves all the well crafted arguments, appeals, expressed facts, experiences, etc, completely failed to penetrate his "faith." he's supposed to come off as kinda dumb.
historically, the japanese had some experience with and knowledge of english before they had any contact with the portuguese, so the idea is the jesuits were trying to translate the gospel into japanese using every known word, from any language, that both the jesuits and the would-be converts both knew. throw in some confirmation bias, and the result is a completely fricked translation that just gets worse as it gets better.
I just want to be this Chad
he's a hilarious c**t
Jesus cannot go against his own words. Only two options:
A) Satan spoke to him, told him to deny Christ
B) The Hollywood movie is typical satanic subversion
Matthew 10:33
King James Bible
>But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Revelation 2:10
>10Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Look, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison to test you, and you will suffer tribulation for ten days. Be faithful even unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
or that jesus isn't real and he was telling himself what he wanted to hear
They were still allowed to believe, the nip government was just obsessed with the symbolic act of making them step on an image of Jesus. But ultimately the image is just an image, not God.
the point was to get the krishitans to stop with the whole mangled death-cult version of christianity they'd been fed by showing them the priests/jesuits had also ditched it.
That doesn't really matter for the characters involved. They are still being forced to deny their faith or die. Even if the method does not technically constitute denial they still believe it does, so it does.
Schizo
He did not deny Jesus
Unironically filtered. I sincerely feel sorry for you that your thoughtless dogmatism prevents you from understanding this Christ-affirming kino.
Lunched.
Protestants would never understand Silence.
>protestant autism
lmao nobody will ever take you seriously
I"MAAA NATT UH CREEECHINNNNN
Michael Mann movies i guess
nah he's usually got some small measure of humor like pacino in heat (she's got a GREAT ASS) and cruise in collateral (you killed him? no i shot him, the bullets and the fall killed him)
but yeah there's not much
Jamie Foxx had some comedy moments in Collateral too iirc.
I agree with you, OP. After seeing people tied up and thrown in the ocean the protagonist should have made a quip to release the tension. It's really anxiety-inducing when you can't crack a smile.
Why did refuse to let Joss Whedon and that one Buffy chick be alone together?
?t=48
>watch scorsese movie
>rolling stones start playing
it's kino every time
Are christcucks really so mentally ill that they'd rather die than step on an image or say a few words?
Even if God ends up being real, I think you can make a pretty convincing case
>Hey God, I'm really sorry about that time I stepped on image of your face, if I didn't do it they would've killed me and my whole family
This argument falls flat on it's face when you realize they'd achieve sainthood if they had died for being followers of Christ
it's ridiculously unbelievable that a church father could be held ransom with the lives of his congregation if the reason they are being killed is because of their religion
As martyrs they would have been welcomed in Heaven
the target of the act wasn't the jesuits, but the japanese converts. but the japanese converts were following a horribly mistranslated version of christianity, where they basically believed the more they suffered, without killing themselves, the better the chance of the sun not rising for three days, and then them dying and going to paradise. so they weren't eating or drinking more than the bare minimum, weren't cleaning, weren't generally working.
the problem is the jesuits could not even begin to concieve of the idea it was possible to mistranslate the word of god. because the word of god wasn't supposed to be just people talking to each other, the word of god is supposed to shine through and show people the Truth, the moment people are made aware of it.
Blessed check.
You forget that Christians believe in an eternal paradise. Why would anyone who sincerely believes that they are assured a place in Heaven if they don't break the rules on Earth ever break a single rule on Earth? Especially when dying for God's sake actually assures their position even more?
This is a lie, lol.
>This is a lie
except all of it is true. the japanese converts weren't christian, didn't understand scripture, or even have a close to accurate idea of who jesus was or what he did. they were some butt-fricked-inside-out monstrosity that worshiped priests and suffering. it would be centuries before actual japanese christians would come into existence. the kirishitan death cult was just suffering in vain, and it was the jesuit's fault.
You can just keep repeating the lies if you want, it doesn't make them true.
why do you feel historical fact is a lie?
Because it is not historical fact.
Listen, you are obviously some autist or schizo with an agenda. I don't want to rain on your parade too much but when you start lying about things for no reason you're stepping on people's toes.
how is it not historical fact that the initial jesuit attempts to convert the japanese to christianity were horribly mistranslated and resulted in a nonsensical death cult?
How is it not historical fact that the ocean is red? It just isn't.
except... that's what happened. the kirishitans didn't believe in anything remotely resembling the meaning of christian scripture. they only used a few names/rituals correct.
see
okay, cover your ears and scream for it to stop. its not like you can check on this yourself in an instant.
ITS NOT LIKE THEY MADE A HISTORICALLY ACCURATE MOVIE ABOUT EXACTLY WHAT I AM SAYING OR ANYTHING
protestants opened the door for endless variations of jesusanity, sorry catholicuck
which, of course, has nothing to do with anything.
>dey not christians cause dey not doing the right magic rituals and stuff
they weren't christians because the jesuits of the time had close to no understanding of japanese, and completely botched every aspect of the initial attempts at translation.
like the inquisitor said, the japanese, at that point, had a better understanding of spanish/portuguese than the jesuits had of japanese, and this was years after the initial contact.
>this is true because the fictional movie had characters who opposed christianity say it was true
bruh, its a true story. not sure why you think its pure fiction.
nice selfie?
>be man who's whole life is devoted to God and spreading it to others so that they would be saved
>deny God not only going against everything you believe but essentially damning others as well
Kinda makes it a difficult choice for them
Some of the scenes with the Kichijiro have a sense of humor.
There was some humor. I remember that one tourist and then that one guy in the therapy group.
It's been 5 years since I watched it to be fair. I just remember it having such a serious premise that it almost flipped back around to being comical.
God this sucked, Hawke was such a useless whiny b***h do Protestant C*cks really
Lol at the end the moronic japs where worshipping a paganistic version of jesus. This movie shows why religions that tries to convert everyone always split into different heresies. Like christianity: latins kept catholicism, germans protestantism and greeks orthodoxy (and the stupid japs a literal sun jesus)
>the moronic japs where worshipping a paganistic version of jesus
They weren't. That's just what an apostate traitor said to justify his behavior in public.
They clearly were. The asian mindset was very different from the west. Clearly they wouldnt get the cultural context christianity is in. Its the same thing with hinduism to us, it is very hard to understand the concept of atman fully because we are not inside that tradition
>clearly
Where is it clear? What material are looking at where this is clear to you?
You are a schizo ranting about nonsense is all I'm hearing, nothing you are saying has a basis in historical reality.
Because people from other cultures have difficulty understanding foreign religious concepts. Imagine trying to make some peasant japanese understand greek concepts like the trinity and israeli profecies
I see. So you're just making things up and assuming that your understanding of the world is so all encompassing that your fiction accurately reflects reality.
what if i told you that europeans worship a paganistic version of jesus
apostatizing is LE BAD
ESPECIALLY IF IT'S TO SAVE INNOCENT PEOPLE
Literally any comedy made in the last 10 years.
am I supposed to ignore all the politics, the attempted colonization of japan by europeans in the same vain as the philippines and indochina? instead I'm supposed to boo hoo over spirituality or some shit?
yes, chud
too bad, glory to the nips
Yeah
Europeans (and americans) think they have the worlds best cultures and religion and they should be adopted by everone on earth. Suffice to say that this is impossible and create very degenerate anomalies like the philipines
Oh yeah this movie exists.... is it any good?
i for one think it's the best thing scorsese has done this century
if you're a committed christian you won't like it. scorsese is a heretic
Bullshit I'm Christian and I love it. Last Temptation of Christ is also kino.
every scene has the subtext of being able to do a superfriends style screenwipe to
>MEANWHILE, AT THE HEADQUARTERS OF THE SPANISH INQUISITION
which is pretty funny
The Matrix
I laughed at the scenes with Agent Smith he was funny, the context was funny.
so lets break it down
>jesuits contact japan during their warring lords period
>christian nations will only trade with other christians
>jesuits can't really understand japanese at all, or translate anything into it, but try anyway, because they think god will handle the heavy lifting
>instead of telling these people to either learn japanese or frick off, a few lords "convert" their subjects to Christianity, to open up trade, for guns.
>these lords still lose the warring lords period
>but their converts are still there
>fast forward
>the now dominant government views the jesuits as agents of foreign subversion not only because of "trade-for-conversion," but also because the converts are worse than useless, because their version of the religion tells them to suffer as much as possible
nice fanfic
There are MULTIPLE scenes in Silence that are downright hilarious
TERRUBAL BIZNIZZ!
TERRUBAL!
That one guy who kept betraying him was pretty funny.
>Confession!!
The moment where the padre demands to be taken to the inquisitor and the Japanese lords look at him in confusion and then break into genuine laughter was such a brief and sudden mood shift in the story, it almost felt like a blooper that was accidentally left in
that's literally me when i realize i've been trying to explain something complex to a moron though
it was funny seeing english speaking actors trying to pronounce portuguese names with "ão" "ães" and "ç"
>japanese catholics are killed and tortured by the government
>their religion is outlawed for centuries
>the two cities which boast the biggest number of catholics in Japan get nuked
These guys just can’t catch a break.
that's exactly why filthy anglo protestants targeted them
>no humor
>the christcucks get cucked time and time again
This is an uplifting comedy
Why were the Chinese so nice to them but the Japanese so mean?
That was in Macau, so Portuguese control. China was also not nice, just not as bad as Japan. Jesuits got to hang out with the emperor and share their scientific knowledge, but actual missionary efforts were tightly controlled.
Things were going well until dumber religious orders convinced the pope to ban ancestor worship and Confucianism, which the Jesuits had integrated into Christianity.
Why did Japan look like a complete shithole compared to China at that time?
not religious but the scene where jesus speaks to him was kinda kino. It was just so comforting. He thought he had so much to explain and jesus was just like
>dude I get it. I always get it.