Red Wolf.
He was supposed to be Marvel’s Indigenous representation but kinda flopped. Nowadays they’re retrying with Echo.
>but kinda flopped.
Not so much flopped as got derailed by a controversy
Red Wolf was an obscure 70s character that was both part of the still surviving Westerns (Rawhide Kid, Two Gun Kid, Kid Colt) and part of the 70s "diversity" moment that embraced blacksploitation, kung th, feminism (Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Shang Chi, The Cat/Tigra)
He was plucked from the 1800s to the present day for ANAD. It didn't make sense because American Eagle was already there, actually modern and already a used pet favorite charactermmof Jason Aaron's
It's true that it didn't make sense to include him but I think there may be another reason American Eagle didn't get used, he debuted in Marvel Two-in-One, a title that starred The Thing.
My guess is Marvel Studios wanted Native representation but didn't want the headache of trying to figure out whether they or Fox owned the rights to American Eagle and went with Red Wolf because it was easier
Then Ales Kot and other people tried to take down the guy who was writing Red Wolf and so all the plans for the character got shoved aside
>Then Ales Kot and other people tried to take down the guy who was writing Red Wolf and so all the plans for the character got shoved aside
oh is that what happened? I just remembered they announced this guy and then nothing happened. That'd explain it.
I earnestly like falcon cap, he has a cool design and Steve is an increasingly dated WW2 relic who should be laid to rest
I like the idea of both being around doing separate stuff. Like how Sam's dealing with Avengers stuff right now and Cap's dealing with crazy magic shit in the JMS book. But I also liked that brief period where him and Bucky were both doing stuff before Bucky got sent to the gulag.
>oh is that what happened? I just remembered they announced this guy and then nothing happened. That'd explain it.
Yeah, see
Red Wolf was a character from 70s Marvel. Marvel had plans for the character, likely because Marvel Studios wanted a character for Native American representation, and they planned to have Nathan Edmonson work on Red Wolf.
>Why didn't they use Forge or Dani Moonstar
X-Men film rights, can't use em >Why can't they use Wyatt Wingfoot
Fantastic Four rights, can't use him >Why can't they use American Eagle
He debuted in Marvel Two-in-One Annual #6. Marvel Two-in-One was a comic where Ben Grimm teamed up with Marvel heroes, so potentially this could've caused rights arguments with Fox. Remember, Kang first appeared in Avengers, but Rama-Tut's first appearance was Fantastic Four
Ales Kot called out Nathan Edmonson, Rich Johnston, Heidi MacDonald Nick Hanover, Brett Schenker and others reported on the controversy and Marvel had to cancel plans.
>What if Captain America but black? >What if Wolverine but woman?
These two I will actually defend. Sam Wilson has been an established hero and ally and best friend of Steve Rogers for years. If Steve were to be taken out of the picture Sam would be the natural choice for a new Captain America, it was just handled very clunkily in a time of real world racial tension and MCU synergy.
Laura on the other hand is Logan's clone/biological daughter so a child inheriting the parent's legacy feels right to me. One could argue that Laura's whole character arc is establishing herself as her own person as opposed to being a female clone of someone and make a pretty good point, but I think it's a sign of growth for her to take on the alter ego of her parent and have enough sense of self now to not be subsumed by it.
Thor but a woman was literally the whole 'humiliation ritual' meme and Iron Man but black and woman was just bandwagoning the racial tensions of America.
>I also would have accepted a 'Thor dies for awhile' story and Sif or Valkyrie or even Storm are worthy enough to take up Mjolnir for plot reasons
Consider this: Thor dies, but its still possible to rescue him from whatever magical afterlife bullshit he has been trapped in. But to save him, said female character is going to need the powers of Thor to do it.
People would be way less upset about the concept if the plot hinged around rescuing the real Thor and making it clear that this was a temporary situation for a specific story instead of so obviously lying that this was the future of the brand.
>'Thor as woman' would work if they used the Earth X idea and had it be a spell/trick performed by Loki to turn Odinson female.
/copol/ would never stop b***hing about Thor being le troony then
The unfortunate thing about Sam becoming the next Captain America is that it's never been allowed to really be Something. Steve is far too iconic for Marvel to ever allow him to go away for good, so Sam will forever be stuck as "the /other/ Captain America."
It reminds me about how Doctor Voodoo never got the chance to shine as Sorcerer Supreme because they kept using Doctor Strange in other comics. Except they didn't retcon Strange into being a servant of Dormannmu since before he became a wizard.
I used to defend Miles back when he debuted too, I thought there was nothing wrong with a black Spider-Man in an alt universe. To be fair to myself, >I was pretty young >they didn't really push him outside of his series for the first few years
But the fact remains that you DID defend it.
You helped create this shitshow we live in.
Oh! But you regret your choice, so it's ok now?
Kys homosexual.
>was
Most of these characters are still being pushed. Half of them probably won't lapse into obscurity anytime soon, barring some major financial disaster fir Marvel. Agent Redditson and Red Wolf are the only ones we won't see in the near future.
I remember reading early Jane Thor and enjoying it a lot, or at least up until they reveal the mister. Everything else was kinda ass specially the X-men
Maybe you haven't noticed but the media narrative (and not idiotic Youtube grifter nonsense) is trying to push away from Thor 4 lately.
>Marvels made $200 m on a $216 million dollar budget. Hardly disasters.
I'll grant you Thor 4 at least broke even but your example for The Marvels is an actual disaster. Do you not know how the box office is divided between theaters and studios?
An over inflated budgets and bad marketing can be fixed for future projects. The point is there is interest in these characters beyond the comics and that all started with ANAD.
An over inflated budgets and bad marketing can be fixed for future projects. The point is there is interest in these characters beyond the comics and that all started with ANAD.
I remember what a big deal they were making about Tony replacing Peter as the face of Marvel Comics...then Peter made his MCU debut, and Tony quickly fell into a coma and was temporarily replaced by Riri and Doom.
They did a massive push for Bendis' Iron Man
Launch party, midnight release, multiple variants, etc. It had orders estimated around 279,514. And then the sales dropped to around Gillen and Fraction run levels
This would've been okay sales (it was still doing better than Superior Iron Man's sales) but it definitely wasn't what Marvel wanted
>and Tony quickly fell into a coma and was temporarily replaced by Riri and Doom.
I get the feeling that had sales done better they wouldn't have quickly resorted to this. Setting up Riri and Doom as replacements was really, really rushed.
They did a massive push for Bendis' Iron Man
Launch party, midnight release, multiple variants, etc. It had orders estimated around 279,514. And then the sales dropped to around Gillen and Fraction run levels
This would've been okay sales (it was still doing better than Superior Iron Man's sales) but it definitely wasn't what Marvel wanted
>and Tony quickly fell into a coma and was temporarily replaced by Riri and Doom.
I get the feeling that had sales done better they wouldn't have quickly resorted to this. Setting up Riri and Doom as replacements was really, really rushed.
Tony's publishing history post-Fraction is fricked. Nobody has stuck around to do anything besides throw some big new ideas at the wall, upend the status quo, then settle on anew status quo, then IMMEDIATELY leave the title and then the next writer jettisons everything and starts over. It's absolutely laughable. Just to take one of the latest examples, Cantwell gave Riri the Mandarin's rings and when Duggan started his run he instantly sent Riri off into space so he never had to write her except for the few pages where she fought Emma and then fricked off again.
Every time I see a thread on here claiming some variant of "[Character] Was Always Bad" I'm starting to suspect it's not trolls but people working in the industry trying to make excuses for why the books are so bad in order to deflect (ie "Don't fire me, look at these people saying that Iron Man is a hard character to write")
Iron Man was fine until the end of Fraction. It's only when they started playing spin the wheel with him that he became a mess beause nobody knew what the frick Iron man even was that year. He found out he was adopted! He found out his half-brother was Technology Jesus! He died! He was replaced by Riri! He was replaced by Doom! He was morally inverted by AXIS! He's in space! He's married to Emma and it's a stealth X-Men book! and he constantly, all the fricking time have to rediscover what it means to be a hero.
We have not had an Iron Man series about Tony just running Stark International and handling threats since 2012. Fourteen fricking years since Tony had a status quo. Or any of the fricking replacements.
The only Marvel major name who has had it worse is Black Widow who is just entirely fricked. Tony is only mostly fricked.
I don’t even think the Native American guy appeared in any comics during this time.
But you think that’s bad? >random unidentifiable green monster foot >edgy slapstick and other literally who mercenaries >ironheart in armor she wore maybe for a single frame, I only ever recall seeing her building it in a garage and then getting a suit for free from Tony
And I don’t even recall what the divisors we stand shit is about because this took place after Civil War 2 had ended?
>random unidentifiable green monster foot
American Kaiju from Ewing's New Avengers/US Avengers
>edgy slapstick and other literally who mercenaries
Characters from Duggan's Deadpool that were spun off into a team book then further spread thin into individual solo spinoffs
>Characters from Duggan's Deadpool that were spun off into a team book then further spread thin into individual solo spinoffs
I'm constantly amazed this hack gets a-list work.
Nick Fury Jr. is definitely one if the characters who simply left the books once nobody at the top fought for him. He's not even important enough to be a major player in the books which involve spycraft or shadow governments, like whenever they dust off the Black Widow name again.
He's the "first Native American superhero" that was immediately forgotten. They brought back a super old hero, made a big deal about it, and then dropped.
Wait, who's the Native American guy? Why did Disney have to make up an OC for "What If...?" when he exists?
https://kinnikuman.fandom.com/wiki/Geronimo
To be fair this was the same comic who post World War II had a Nazi representing Germany at the superhuman Olympics and then during the next one with the previous guy getting killed they had his son represent Germany who become a member of the Heroes group of friends.
Red Wolf he's an old side character back when Marvel still printed Westerns, they were going to revive the genre after Secret War but idea never really came together.
Red Wolf was a character from 70s Marvel. Marvel had plans for the character, likely because Marvel Studios wanted a character for Native American representation, and they planned to have Nathan Edmonson work on Red Wolf.
>Why didn't they use Forge or Dani Moonstar
X-Men film rights, can't use em >Why can't they use Wyatt Wingfoot
Fantastic Four rights, can't use him >Why can't they use American Eagle
He debuted in Marvel Two-in-One Annual #6. Marvel Two-in-One was a comic where Ben Grimm teamed up with Marvel heroes, so potentially this could've caused rights arguments with Fox. Remember, Kang first appeared in Avengers, but Rama-Tut's first appearance was Fantastic Four
Ales Kot called out Nathan Edmonson, Rich Johnston, Heidi MacDonald Nick Hanover, Brett Schenker and others reported on the controversy and Marvel had to cancel plans.
What a trip considering everything that happened since that article. This shit git handled so badly that Rich Johnston and Heidi Macdonald were trying to get people to walk back their accusations until concrete proof showed
>oh is that what happened? I just remembered they announced this guy and then nothing happened. That'd explain it.
Yeah, see [...] for the shitstorm that happened
Just read through that and it's really weird to see Kot accusing Gerards of being militant fasc and all that when he's like the blandest white liberal swiftie alive. He's like the saltine cracker of leftist comic book guys.
Who is the bow and arrow man?
Red Wolf I wager.
Red Wolf.
He was supposed to be Marvel’s Indigenous representation but kinda flopped. Nowadays they’re retrying with Echo.
>but kinda flopped.
Not so much flopped as got derailed by a controversy
Red Wolf was an obscure 70s character that was both part of the still surviving Westerns (Rawhide Kid, Two Gun Kid, Kid Colt) and part of the 70s "diversity" moment that embraced blacksploitation, kung th, feminism (Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Shang Chi, The Cat/Tigra)
He was plucked from the 1800s to the present day for ANAD. It didn't make sense because American Eagle was already there, actually modern and already a used pet favorite charactermmof Jason Aaron's
It's true that it didn't make sense to include him but I think there may be another reason American Eagle didn't get used, he debuted in Marvel Two-in-One, a title that starred The Thing.
My guess is Marvel Studios wanted Native representation but didn't want the headache of trying to figure out whether they or Fox owned the rights to American Eagle and went with Red Wolf because it was easier
Then Ales Kot and other people tried to take down the guy who was writing Red Wolf and so all the plans for the character got shoved aside
>Then Ales Kot and other people tried to take down the guy who was writing Red Wolf and so all the plans for the character got shoved aside
oh is that what happened? I just remembered they announced this guy and then nothing happened. That'd explain it.
I like the idea of both being around doing separate stuff. Like how Sam's dealing with Avengers stuff right now and Cap's dealing with crazy magic shit in the JMS book. But I also liked that brief period where him and Bucky were both doing stuff before Bucky got sent to the gulag.
>oh is that what happened? I just remembered they announced this guy and then nothing happened. That'd explain it.
Yeah, see
for the shitstorm that happened
>What if Thor but woman?
>What if Captain America but black?
>What if Wolverine but woman?
>What if Iron Man but black and woman?
I cant believe I defended this cancerous bullshit back then and I cant believe the entertainment industry is STILL doing this gimmick
White cap was right next to him you could
Also I think that was still Tiny
>What if Captain America but black?
>What if Wolverine but woman?
These two I will actually defend. Sam Wilson has been an established hero and ally and best friend of Steve Rogers for years. If Steve were to be taken out of the picture Sam would be the natural choice for a new Captain America, it was just handled very clunkily in a time of real world racial tension and MCU synergy.
Laura on the other hand is Logan's clone/biological daughter so a child inheriting the parent's legacy feels right to me. One could argue that Laura's whole character arc is establishing herself as her own person as opposed to being a female clone of someone and make a pretty good point, but I think it's a sign of growth for her to take on the alter ego of her parent and have enough sense of self now to not be subsumed by it.
Thor but a woman was literally the whole 'humiliation ritual' meme and Iron Man but black and woman was just bandwagoning the racial tensions of America.
'Thor as woman' would work if they used the Earth X idea and had it be a spell/trick performed by Loki to turn Odinson female.
I also would have accepted a 'Thor dies for awhile' story and Sif or Valkyrie or even Storm are worthy enough to take up Mjolnir for plot reasons
>I also would have accepted a 'Thor dies for awhile' story and Sif or Valkyrie or even Storm are worthy enough to take up Mjolnir for plot reasons
Consider this: Thor dies, but its still possible to rescue him from whatever magical afterlife bullshit he has been trapped in. But to save him, said female character is going to need the powers of Thor to do it.
People would be way less upset about the concept if the plot hinged around rescuing the real Thor and making it clear that this was a temporary situation for a specific story instead of so obviously lying that this was the future of the brand.
>'Thor as woman' would work if they used the Earth X idea and had it be a spell/trick performed by Loki to turn Odinson female.
/copol/ would never stop b***hing about Thor being le troony then
I earnestly like falcon cap, he has a cool design and Steve is an increasingly dated WW2 relic who should be laid to rest
Sure thing, shill
The unfortunate thing about Sam becoming the next Captain America is that it's never been allowed to really be Something. Steve is far too iconic for Marvel to ever allow him to go away for good, so Sam will forever be stuck as "the /other/ Captain America."
It reminds me about how Doctor Voodoo never got the chance to shine as Sorcerer Supreme because they kept using Doctor Strange in other comics. Except they didn't retcon Strange into being a servant of Dormannmu since before he became a wizard.
X-23 looked bad in the wolverine costume.
Fricken idiot.
I used to defend Miles back when he debuted too, I thought there was nothing wrong with a black Spider-Man in an alt universe. To be fair to myself,
>I was pretty young
>they didn't really push him outside of his series for the first few years
But the fact remains that you DID defend it.
You helped create this shitshow we live in.
Oh! But you regret your choice, so it's ok now?
Kys homosexual.
>was
Most of these characters are still being pushed. Half of them probably won't lapse into obscurity anytime soon, barring some major financial disaster fir Marvel. Agent Redditson and Red Wolf are the only ones we won't see in the near future.
>those shitty MCU style costumes
Disgusting
I remember reading early Jane Thor and enjoying it a lot, or at least up until they reveal the mister. Everything else was kinda ass specially the X-men
>that ass and breasts on Gwen
I'm being overwhelmed by impure thoughts
Remember when they randomly turned the MCU agent guy into a villain? But more seriously, most of those beside him are still getting pushed.
>ANAD --> civil war 2 --> Marvel Legacy
Killed Axel Alonso's career as EIC
I can't believe it got that bad during that time
How funny. But i am still sad how this company is still running despite it all.
With the exception of Red Wolf and Spider-Woman, I would say it was overwhelmingly successful, everyone has gone on to success outside of comics
where's old cap movie
pwned
>went on to success
I don't know if you noticed but Thor Love and Thunder and The Marvels did not do well
Thor 4 made $760 million dollars, Marvels made $200 m on a $216 million dollar budget. Hardly disasters. They're only bad in comparison to themselves.
13,000,000 people paid to see the Marvels, that's not a bad return on a small comic only 25,000 people read month to month.
Maybe you haven't noticed but the media narrative (and not idiotic Youtube grifter nonsense) is trying to push away from Thor 4 lately.
>Marvels made $200 m on a $216 million dollar budget. Hardly disasters.
I'll grant you Thor 4 at least broke even but your example for The Marvels is an actual disaster. Do you not know how the box office is divided between theaters and studios?
An over inflated budgets and bad marketing can be fixed for future projects. The point is there is interest in these characters beyond the comics and that all started with ANAD.
Turns out The Marvels did way worse than that
https://deadline.com/2024/05/biggest-box-office-bombs-2023-lowest-grossing-movies-1235902825/
A loss of $237 million
Only good thing that came from this was Infamous Iron Man.
Awful.
What changed? I still see all those failures being forced except Native Man.
They stopped forcing Phil Coulsin as well
I remember what a big deal they were making about Tony replacing Peter as the face of Marvel Comics...then Peter made his MCU debut, and Tony quickly fell into a coma and was temporarily replaced by Riri and Doom.
They did a massive push for Bendis' Iron Man
Launch party, midnight release, multiple variants, etc. It had orders estimated around 279,514. And then the sales dropped to around Gillen and Fraction run levels
This would've been okay sales (it was still doing better than Superior Iron Man's sales) but it definitely wasn't what Marvel wanted
>and Tony quickly fell into a coma and was temporarily replaced by Riri and Doom.
I get the feeling that had sales done better they wouldn't have quickly resorted to this. Setting up Riri and Doom as replacements was really, really rushed.
Tony's publishing history post-Fraction is fricked. Nobody has stuck around to do anything besides throw some big new ideas at the wall, upend the status quo, then settle on anew status quo, then IMMEDIATELY leave the title and then the next writer jettisons everything and starts over. It's absolutely laughable. Just to take one of the latest examples, Cantwell gave Riri the Mandarin's rings and when Duggan started his run he instantly sent Riri off into space so he never had to write her except for the few pages where she fought Emma and then fricked off again.
Every time I see a thread on here claiming some variant of "[Character] Was Always Bad" I'm starting to suspect it's not trolls but people working in the industry trying to make excuses for why the books are so bad in order to deflect (ie "Don't fire me, look at these people saying that Iron Man is a hard character to write")
Iron Man was fine until the end of Fraction. It's only when they started playing spin the wheel with him that he became a mess beause nobody knew what the frick Iron man even was that year. He found out he was adopted! He found out his half-brother was Technology Jesus! He died! He was replaced by Riri! He was replaced by Doom! He was morally inverted by AXIS! He's in space! He's married to Emma and it's a stealth X-Men book! and he constantly, all the fricking time have to rediscover what it means to be a hero.
We have not had an Iron Man series about Tony just running Stark International and handling threats since 2012. Fourteen fricking years since Tony had a status quo. Or any of the fricking replacements.
The only Marvel major name who has had it worse is Black Widow who is just entirely fricked. Tony is only mostly fricked.
What are you talking about?, most of this buttholes are still A-list characters for some fricking reason.
I don’t even think the Native American guy appeared in any comics during this time.
But you think that’s bad?
>random unidentifiable green monster foot
>edgy slapstick and other literally who mercenaries
>ironheart in armor she wore maybe for a single frame, I only ever recall seeing her building it in a garage and then getting a suit for free from Tony
And I don’t even recall what the divisors we stand shit is about because this took place after Civil War 2 had ended?
>random unidentifiable green monster foot
American Kaiju from Ewing's New Avengers/US Avengers
>edgy slapstick and other literally who mercenaries
Characters from Duggan's Deadpool that were spun off into a team book then further spread thin into individual solo spinoffs
>Characters from Duggan's Deadpool that were spun off into a team book then further spread thin into individual solo spinoffs
I'm constantly amazed this hack gets a-list work.
No. That's just the typical Marvel thing when they have a new era for their comics.
Is it a traditional thing
Nick Fury Jr. is definitely one if the characters who simply left the books once nobody at the top fought for him. He's not even important enough to be a major player in the books which involve spycraft or shadow governments, like whenever they dust off the Black Widow name again.
Wait, who's the Native American guy? Why did Disney have to make up an OC for "What If...?" when he exists?
He's the "first Native American superhero" that was immediately forgotten. They brought back a super old hero, made a big deal about it, and then dropped.
https://kinnikuman.fandom.com/wiki/Geronimo
To be fair this was the same comic who post World War II had a Nazi representing Germany at the superhuman Olympics and then during the next one with the previous guy getting killed they had his son represent Germany who become a member of the Heroes group of friends.
Red Wolf he's an old side character back when Marvel still printed Westerns, they were going to revive the genre after Secret War but idea never really came together.
Red Wolf was a character from 70s Marvel. Marvel had plans for the character, likely because Marvel Studios wanted a character for Native American representation, and they planned to have Nathan Edmonson work on Red Wolf.
>Why didn't they use Forge or Dani Moonstar
X-Men film rights, can't use em
>Why can't they use Wyatt Wingfoot
Fantastic Four rights, can't use him
>Why can't they use American Eagle
He debuted in Marvel Two-in-One Annual #6. Marvel Two-in-One was a comic where Ben Grimm teamed up with Marvel heroes, so potentially this could've caused rights arguments with Fox. Remember, Kang first appeared in Avengers, but Rama-Tut's first appearance was Fantastic Four
>Why didn't Marvel use Red Wolf then?
Cause this happened:
https://web.archive.org/web/20201101094007/https://bleedingcool.com/comics/fanboy-rampage-ales-kot-vs-mitch-gerads-and-nathan-edmondson-over-chris-kyle-american-sniper/
https://web.archive.org/web/20150912192521/https://www.comicsbeat.com/the-money-thing-part-2-new-writer-on-red-wolf-is-perfect-storm-of-all-of-todays-comics-issues/
https://web.archive.org/web/20150911012626/http://graphicpolicy.com/2015/09/10/on-nathan-edmondson-marvel-and-the-cycle-of-harasment/
https://web.archive.org/web/20151003182820/http://loser-city.com/features/a-chorus-of-silence-on-the-impossibility-of-reporting-on-chronic-abusers-in-comics
Ales Kot called out Nathan Edmonson, Rich Johnston, Heidi MacDonald Nick Hanover, Brett Schenker and others reported on the controversy and Marvel had to cancel plans.
>Cause this happened:
>https://web.archive.org/web/20150912192521/https://www.comicsbeat.com/the-money-thing-part-2-new-writer-on-red-wolf-is-perfect-storm-of-all-of-todays-comics-issues/
What a trip considering everything that happened since that article. This shit git handled so badly that Rich Johnston and Heidi Macdonald were trying to get people to walk back their accusations until concrete proof showed
Just read through that and it's really weird to see Kot accusing Gerards of being militant fasc and all that when he's like the blandest white liberal swiftie alive. He's like the saltine cracker of leftist comic book guys.
Mostly they're still around. Glad we ditched those awful Spider-Woman and Vision looks though
I like how Cap was de-aged almost immediately
>Remember when this was supposed to be the future of the Marvel brand
No, because I refuse to read any Big Two comic published after 1989.
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