In Star Trek are the fleets of other powers (Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians etc. etc.) doing research/exploration as Starfleet does or are they just exclusively focused on defence?
 Shopping Cart Returner Shirt $21.68 |
 Nothing Ever Happens Shirt $21.68 |
Shopping Cart Returner Shirt $21.68 |
Romulans and Cardassians, yes but they're not as autistic about it as the Federation. Klingons, no. Anyone in the sciences is looked down upon.
>Klingons, no. Anyone in the sciences is looked down upon.
Is the Klingon Empire the sick man of known space or something? How do they stay competitive and relevant?
They steal technology
They are written like Space Orks but notably smarter. It's implied that a few Klingons are good at sciency stuff and their ships are portrayed as something to fear, not laugh at. One of the worst things about the entire franchise of Star Trek is the lack of world building. We don't get enough time learning who the various other races really are. Where's the quality Klingon perspective, for example? Perhaps a one season of Klingon adventures? NuTrek would mess it up of course but the concept is solid. Show these other civilizations on screen to the audience. Let's learn a bit about who the Federation has been dealing with all these years.
star trek has more episodes developing other races than most scifi series have in total.
Too much of it from a Federation perspective. For budget reason, most likely. What do the Klingons do when they aren't interacting with the Federation or Romulans? How do they deal with super powerful space entities? What is a big challenge they have had to overcome all on their own? It could make for an interesting series. Not in the modern sissy space adventures era though.
>super powerful space entities
based on TMP (maybe even 09) they throw ships at them
I swear there's another time they mention the Klingons threw ships at something mysterious with no effect
Scientific missions likely have a path to glory spelled out so sneering captains will still begrudgingly take the mission while still taking opportunities for battle in transit
Theres quite a bit of that in Deep Space 9
Klingons got a lot of advanced tech when their world was invaded by advanced aliens subjugating them briefly, but they do have scientists and farmers, just like Japan did
The show fricks up with the Klingons because they get lazy about it and make it so scientists and researchers are treated like shit. The reality is that Klingon space must be at least as diverse as the neighbouring Federation, which means a lot of different species under Klingon control. It would probably be these species that are directed to do all the science shit to keep the Klingons going. There may be rare klingons with a bend for science, and maybe even taunted for it, but most of the research and development are subjugated planets "protected' by the Klingons. "Lands" of houses may be (and probably are) pieces of these planets or even whole planets. Thus Klemdor, House of Goktom, rules over Sarperia IV where his loyal serfs the Grantari use their weak arms to make honorable warp drive components.
>The reality is that Klingon space must be at least as diverse as the neighbouring Federation, which means a lot of different species under Klingon control.
This makes me confused what the franchise wants us to think about the Cardassian occupation of Bajor. Presumably - unless we are to think Romulan (Remans aside) and Klingon space is empty of other races - the Romulans and Klingons are also going about oppressing and exploiting other races. That is not necessarily a good defence of the Cardassians but, the franchise can't act like the Cardassians are particularly abhorrent when by all reason the Klingons are doing the same sort of shit.
TOS seems to imply the klingons are setting up satrapies, whereas the cardassian methodology seem to be one of displacement.
That other Worf from The Undiscovered Country who may've been Worf's grandfather too. And let us not forget the noble and honorable klingon restauranteur.
>TOS seems to imply the klingons are setting up satrapies, whereas the cardassian methodology seem to be one of displacement.
Yes. Kor's dealing with the Organians is consistent with this. The Klingons want the land and also the people to serve them - and so long as they don't fight back then their treatment will be reasonably good. Cardassians seem to want to do things themselves, so they want the resources and consider the people to be expendable resources. Even Rura Penthe follows this - as brutal as it was for a prison, "work well and you will be treated well; work badly and you will die". With the Cardies, you might die either way in a labour camp. For the Cardies, work itself is punishment. For Klingons, punishment only comes if you act up. The Klingon system is therefore rather more civilized.
I was thinking about Rura Penthe because it raises a point: Who's in it? Are they just random fricks who committed crimes against the empire or species under Klingon control?
It's explicitly called a penal moon, so presumably everyone except the guards is some form of criminal prisoner. We're not told how egregious one's crimes might have to be to get entry. Given that the prisoner population appears to be entirely non-klingon, that bar may actually be fairly low and the real determination is that you're alien so you go to the alien gulags, of which Rura Penthe happens to be one. It does seem to have a reputation for being a particularly brutal one.
I may have misread some of your question. If you mean to ask if some of the aliens on Rura Penthe are subjugated races, we would have no way to know this since we don't even know who those subjugated races might be. It could very well be a mix of criminals from races outside the empire (we know some of them are there) and subjugated ones. Or Rura Penthe itself might be reserved for races outside the empire and other gulags are for the subjugated ones. Subjugated races might even have a completely different penal system on their own worlds - even if they are still basically gulags. They're just gulags on the species' home planet.
In the expanded lore Klingon Empire had several vassal races they conquered, including Gorn periodically
>including Gorn periodically
I like to think they just did this for lulz every now and then to frick with how slow the Gorn were.
>"Ha ha ha, this petaQ is still swinging where I was, not where I now am!"
>*angry hissing noises*
>"Push him over, JaQ'Trel, and let us join the others for the feast."
I see there being two ways you could explain why so many Klingon have become warriors. 1) They have fell into a Spartan situation where they basically need ever Klingon to be a warrior because otherwise all the non-Klingon conquered slaves races, that the empire requires to function, would rebel. 2) They have broadly fallen behind in quality of science, with their response being quantity is its own form of quality. They may always have had a warrior culture however, they double-downed on it rather than actually tackle the problems it brought them.
What we do know, since we are told, is that Klingons have inferior medical technology. So that part of their science has definitely fallen behind. Their more technical science may have once been so, but got a boost from peace with the Federation. The design of the Vor'Cha had in mind that some of the components (nacelles in particular) would look more Federation-derived to show the effect of this tech sharing.
Theres a ds9 episode involving a klingon lawyer.
Klingons can get interested in things other than battle, they just frame it differently. The lawyer in this episode says something like he loves the thrill of his job and views victory in court as personally glorious.
The vast majority of klingons you see in trek are in the millitary, because those are the ones that are most likely going to be taking actions outside of their territory.
You can complain that trek underdoes the world building for the races if you want, but what are you even comparing it to? What sci fi show actually does more?
I didn't say the worldbuilding was underdone, I said that they frick it up because they get lazy. All inference as to how the Klingon empire must function is derived from canon material. It is actually reasonably developed:
- Klingons are a warrior species
- The society is feudal and values honor and combat more than anything else
- Their noncombat citizens are fewer
- When they conquer a planet they kill the leadership and establish a governor
From that we can surmise that most of the honorless shit jobs are done by aliens. Instead of pointing this out when we see one that breaks the mold and tying it together in an interesting way, they just leave it as "what a tweest".
As
points out, this leaves good stories on the table. Friction between Klingons and Fed. Instead of "here's a klingon scientist, how weird, got a chip on her shoulder" it could have been a subjugated alien scientist with a Klingon minder. That's development, that's consistent, that complicates the klingon/federation relationship.
They do have science people though. That one woman who came for the shield test demonstration. Also in the future but the guy janeway stole shit from.
I imagine most of their research is funneled into their own version of DARPA.
>"Somehow, the Klingons got technology"
I think that's pretty much the only explanation. The drive of constant warfare over a very long time pushed them to develop.
>The drive of constant warfare
The Klingons are about honor and glory. Sure, warfare is one such aspect, but you can mold that into exploration frameworks as well. See also: conquistadors.
Seems to me that anyone who chooses a weak profession like engineering, astrophysics would be seen as beneath the rest of the Klingons and would severely dampen their ability to develop basically everything needed to become a spacefaring culture.
It works well enough I suppose. I guess the various species wouldn't be as memorable if they didn't all generally have to adhere to the same rules ie Klingons are warlike and aggresive, Ferengi are greedy space israelites. It also makes characters from those species that diverge from the archetype more interesting.
It feels more like a writer didn't think things trough and the implications at scale.
You need to take the universe at large with a grain of salt because the writers clearly did not care too much about it, the first and foremost goal was monster of the week.
>a weak profession like engineering, astrophysics
They'd have badass Age of Sail name like QUARTERMASTER and NAVIGATOR
it's all about how you spin it
The two-parter where the various races have to partner up and compare DNA notes to uncover the message left by the First Ancestral Race made me sad, there's an incredible story/history to uncover there but everyone other than Picard seemed more interested in fricking over one another than learning about their shared heritage.
There's Klingon warp engineers, they're just the nerds of Kronos.
>There's Klingon warp engineers, they're just the nerds of Kronos.
There would certainly have to be some, but most likely they would be specialists so they can serve as overseers of the subjugated races. This would not be a dishonorable task. Those aliens might get clever and use the technology (or sabotage it) to try and break free. It would therefore be wise to have somebody who knows what they're doing and understands it to make sure they don't get too clever and try to slip shit by.
The romulan at least considered it food for thought.
They probably got most of it when they defeated the Hur'Q. There's a roundabout explanation for the Klingons with the dollar store Klingons of the Kazon. They stole all their tech by defeating their oppressors and then went out using it to get more shit. Discount klingons are like proto-klingons of 1000 years ago. Loose raider clans who don't have their shit together enough yet to form an empire.
I don't think you can get characterizations of the major powers that make sense going off what happens in the TV shows.
Federation is the largest and tehnologically advanced to a point where their research ships have enough firepower to go against dedicated warships.
But it is implied that Klingons can go to head to head with Starfleet and before the introduction of post-Borg encounter ships would lose a 1 on 1 war with them.
Federation would lose to Klingons* is what I meant.
Also it is implied that Federation, Romulans and Klingons are the major players in their corner of the galaxy but could barely hold back Dominion with their joint alliance.
And then Breen frick with Federation by piercing defenses all the way to Earth just so they can dive bomb San Francisco?
Klingons are more scientifically advanced than the federation.
Everyone else is warlike and only the Federation pursues peaceful exploration and expansion because the setting is offensively simplistic. The idea is basically that the Federation is reasonable and good and everyone else has something wrong with them.
It's baby's first sci-fi setting honestly.
actual brainlet opinion.
The setting serves the plot(s)
If the setting is all just about war thats going to limit what the writers can actually do with it.
The whole point of the show was to be aspirational and depict humanity having moved past infighting. That is explicitly why they put a "russian" (lol) on the original show, because it was made during the height of the cold war. TNG is obviously about the late cold war / 90s era so the federation isn't fighting the klingons anymore. Then klingons got reframed to be more of a warrior monk thing instead of space bastards.
That's because the Federation has assimilated all the "good" races and that's why you're left with the buttholes.
Good question!
Trek Canon says other species are interested in exploration too. For example, in the Star Trek: Strange New Worlds/Star Trek: Lower Decks crossover Those Old Scientists, it was established that even the Orions have those who are more interested in Science than Skullduggery.
>For example, in the Star Trek: Strange New Worlds/Star Trek: Lower Decks crossover
not an example
utter fan-fiction
Canon. Continue to cope.
Also, Tendi is a science nerd..
There's literally an episode about a Klingon scientist coming along to study bullshit where they explain this shit
Watch the fricking show
>Watch the fricking show
->
>Tendi is a
another troony
lodegay thread,
you will find no real Trek fans here
What the frick is this solar opposites looking shit I see in star trek threads from time to time
Some scientists or engineers would be maimed Klingons who still wish to seek glory for the Empire
It might work something like this: There's a planet, Partak, in the Klingon Empire. It's home to the Partakians. 300 years ago, Klingons showed up and said: "join us or die". The planet surrendered and Kormok of the House of Grendar became Governor. After 50 years the Partakians were fully assimilated and became one planet (land) of six belonging to the House of Grendar. The Partakins prove to be skilled in the manufacture and development of sublight chamber resonators, a critical component that improves impulse technology, the glory and power of House Grendar increases. 250 years later, a Partakian scientist named Trellor visits the Federation to study new impulse manifolds and comes back corrupted with ideas of freedom, despite his minder's efforts. He begins to speak about Partak for the Partakians. At first the local Partakian law enforcement gets involved to curb his subversion. Eventually it gets the attention of the governor who explains it backed up by threats. Trellor persists and organizes a strike, the strike escalates into sabotage, Trellor gets rounded up as an instigator and sent to the duranium mining gulag on the southern continent. If he completes sentence and reforms, maybe he goes back to work. If not, he stays forever. A second subversion means Rura Penthe for life.
Romulans are autistic isolationists but they had already developed interstellar spaceflight, left Vulcan and settled on Romulus even before the first stone of the city that would become Babylon was laid. Realistically they should be just as big as the Dominion.
The Dominion has the advantage of rapid-maturation clone armies. We don't know if Romulans grow up as fast as humans and then their aging slows, or if it takes them longer to reach maturity. In either case, a useful Romulan soldier takes 20 years to make; a Jem'Hadar is ready in weeks.
Perhaps the Romulans had a bunch of civil wars (Argentina had a bunch from the moment it declared independence up until the 1880s) that limited their early expansionims; by the time they reached stability the UFP, Klingons and all the rest were too firmly established.
there's evidence of the other fleets pursuing research in every series ever made. it's a big part of federation mythology (because they are hypocrites that insist on pretending starfleet isn't a military first) but they're not the only ones doing research and they're not doing more research or less military stuff than anyone else. it's just how it's framed. starfleet = peace loving researchers dragged into defending themselves and everyone else = warlike tribes hellbent on taking over the world. it's pretty similar to how certain countries irl try to portray themselves
You're right about this. Every time a Fed ship runs across some Romulans or Cardassians and offers to assist they get treated with suspicion and told to frick off, and this is presented as being unreasonable because the Feds only want to help from the goodness of their heart. But whenever an alien offers to help a Fed ship, they get treated with suspicion and told everything's under control and this is portrayed as preventing those sneaky aliens from sneaking aboard to do shit. It's the same thing. If anything, Romulans are the most trusting non-allied species of all since they actually accept help from the Enterprise-D on several occassions.
yeah that sounds correct. the romulans are pretty what you see is what you get despite the huge attempt at intrigue. they want to be left alone after the neutral zone came into effect and this is somehow a great offense to starfleet. they're no angels but they're more isolationist than actively antagonistic like some others