>SEED factor. >Coordinator. >Newtype

With Nicol’s death, they removed a few frames of Kira moving his blade forward to impact the Blitz so instead it looks like Kira steps back to take a defensive stance and Nicol just runs into the blade. The Perfect Strike is newly animated and features until the very of the end of the show, I think most of their budget actually went into inserting it into the footage. They even got Koyasu back in to record some new lines retaining to it

>In Seed they change the way Nicol dies so it's Nicol's own accidental suicide instead of Kira's kill.
excuse me, what? they changed it from kira killing nicole to nicole jumped straight to sword strike? why? just so they can say kira didn't kill anyone on purpose?
>Aile Strike at the EA invasion of Orb is replaced with Perfect Strike
did they make new animation for perfect strike or just replaced the animation of aile strike? is it the only time perfect strike launched or we see more of it?

And here's the remastered version of events.

He tried to stab him with one of Blitz's missiles. If he left the cloak on he'd have no Phase Shift and would effectively be suicide bombing him. He put the PS up in hopes he'd somehow survive.

Blitz's darts do explode, as shown when it fires them into AA and they all detonate causing enough of an explosion to blow one of it's railguns off, so an explosion point blank without PS would probably destroy Blitz. To be honest it probably wouldn't have destroyed Strike with it's PS either but it would have blown Kira back and given them the chance to escape.

When they were getting so hammered by Athrun's group they needed to hide in Orb

So like....do they seriously have to replace those darts every single time? Because replacing huge phase shift darts after every battle has got to be expensive and wasteful

>The darts aren't Phase Shift, and using three darts to blow up an entire enemy battleship is a good trade of resources.
Yes they do phase shift. We see them with phase shift effect and also mirage colloid too. Just like how we see Aegis's Gundam shield have phase shift and change color. And Buster Gundam's guns have phase shift go from grey to colored. And we see Sword Strike have phase shift.

The sword and sword striker parts are already colored when they're attached to the Strike. I'll have to look through the other episodes to double check what he says about the Aegis shield and Buster guns.

The sword and sword striker parts are already colored when they're attached to the Strike. I'll have to look through the other episodes to double check what he says about the Aegis shield and Buster guns.

In episode 2, it's hard to see the shield due to the angle but the way it is presented, there is no hint of red or any other colour on the shield until after phase shift is activated for the Aegis. However, the Strike's shield definitely stays coloured in the later episode when Kira accidentally uses up all the battery life and is captured temporarily.

>And we see Sword Strike have phase shift.
Wait what? Since when?

>Wait what? Since when?
Since always. Some fans just don't pay close attention.
The phase shift effect glimmers over the entire suit...including the Striker pack and weapons. Not everything changes color with phase shift turned on

>double check what he says about the Aegis shield and Buster guns.
Buster's guns have phase shift. The guns shimmer and change color.

>how relatively small the archangel is,
The Archangel is half a kilometer long.

>The darts aren't Phase Shift, and using three darts to blow up an entire enemy battleship is a good trade of resources.
Their not? I thought the whole point was to make them phase shift so they have more penetrating power. Otherwise it can't penetrate enemies with Phase Shift like Strike Gundam. You only have 3 darts so they must be very powerful. Not just some ordinary metal dart.

The darts are said to be hyper fast velocity, but while I've heard the claim that the lancer darts are tipped with PS armor, I've never heard that the Blitz or its darts were specifically intended to penetrate phase shift armor.

>I've never heard that the Blitz or its darts were specifically intended to penetrate phase shift armor.
Like other anon mentioned, how else would the darts penetrate Strike's phase shift armor? Nicole seemed confident. If they arent phase shift themselves, then they would just bounce off the armor.

>We are trying to tell you that it WOULD NOT penetrate the Strike's PS armor. It was just a desperate effort to save Athrun.
So you are telling me that Federation Engineers programmed the Blitz darts to be able to cloak with, but not have phase shift? Where's the logic in that?

Why in the hell would cloaking have anything to do with whether the darts have phase shift armor or not?

The dart doesn't have any cloaking technology. It's just attached to the Gundam that surrounds itself in a cloaking gas cloud of light-bending particles. They aren't stealth darts that are undetectable even when flying toward enemies.

>You wouldn't expect a disposable dart to be able to have expensive cloaking technology.
But you do expect it to have expensive phase shift armor technology?

Frick man, I don't know what to tell you. There's just no databook or gunpla manual that says the darts are tipped with phase shift armor. Even if it were, why would something being tipped with phase shift armor mean it can penetrate phase shift armor? A kick or punch from a phase shift covered fist or foot doesn't damage the phase shift armored Gundams. There's maybe one physical weapon in Seed (not sure about Destiny sequel or the Astray sidestory) that is specifically mentioned to be able to damage phase shift armor, and that's the Raider Gundam's hammer. The tech writeups from the Gundam Seed MS Encyclopedia and some websites say it can deal damage even through PS armor due to the fact that it's superheavy or dense or something, not because it's also covered in phase shift.

Not the anon you are responding to but if beam sabers can have phase shift then why can't Blitz's darts?

>Since when do beam sabres have phase shift?
The beam sabers on Gundams have phase shift. You can see it on Freedom and Justice Gundam while in the hangars. Their beam sabers change color with phase shift. Same with their beam boomerangs on Destiny Gundam and Justice. They all change with Phase shift.

>This is contradicted by the webm in

The sword and sword striker parts are already colored when they're attached to the Strike. I'll have to look through the other episodes to double check what he says about the Aegis shield and Buster guns.
You have it backwards. This webm

The sword and sword striker parts are already colored when they're attached to the Strike. I'll have to look through the other episodes to double check what he says about the Aegis shield and Buster guns.

comes later. So if you're to try to argue that one retcons the other, then

The sword and sword striker parts are already colored when they're attached to the Strike. I'll have to look through the other episodes to double check what he says about the Aegis shield and Buster guns.

takes priority and retcons the one from the earlier episodes. Besides the original argument was to show any example of it having phase shift. Not which webm has priority.

>Note that this doesn't stop them from getting blown up in one railgun shot
Not that anon but it's because the Freedom railguns have phase shift. They aren't ordinary railguns.

Listen anon. Freedom's railguns have phase shift. This gives the railguns durability and strength to fire railguns slugs at far higher velocity and intensity than normal railguns can ever do. Thus causing more far damage. Currently, railguns in real life have issues because the barrel breaks apart after 1 or 2 shots. We have no way of strengthening the barrel with current tech. Hence something like phase shift would be a huge benefit to developing railguns and mass producing them.

It's the same reason why Sword Strike's giant sword is phase shifted. To withstand the pounding of cutting through hundreds of tons of metal. In real life, larger swords dull, crack, and snap apart in extended combat. After you cut through a few enemies, the sword becomes duller and at risk of cracking.

It's the same reason why beam boomerangs and rocket anchors (Sword Strike, Blitz Gundam, and Infinite Justice) have phase shift. Extra durability in combat. You can fling around a beam boomerangs and cut through enemies because they are durable with battery powered phase shift. The phase shift isn't not as tough when it's disconnected from the main body, but it's still very good. Enough to cut through enemies and not break or dull.

It's the same reason why Genesis has phase shift. To withstand the tremendous amounts of nuclear heat and radiation being fired through the system. Phase shift provides durability and strength so weapons can be used for a longer period of time without loss of quality.

I have already explained this to you twice, and you are just ignoring what the anime shows us.

Hmm...you're arguing a completely different point now. You've shifted your argument from:

"Weapons can't be phase shifted."

to

"Does phase shift does go inside the suit's body (like the head)?"

It's a completely different argument anon.

>Athrun is a mix of white and red because he loves being in close combat and needs the extra protection on certain parts of suit that are likely to get hit in close combat.
you'd think this matters, but beam sabers makes this irrelevant. What are they expecting? Kira to kick mobile suits again? Aegis and savior getting busted in melee by Kira makes this seem like a bad idea. Just go the lightest PS setting and "try" not to get hit, because getting hit is usually going to frick them up regardless. Athrun should change colors.

Ship machine guns can still destroy some MS so I assume it’s a countermeasure against those. Theoretically, using non-beam weapons would still be viable against grunts and phase shift being widespread like Windam trans PS would force enemies into beam only rather than cheaper bullets. And some mechs like the Freedom and Strike Freedom still use rail guns for underwater and more. Shinn once got struck in the wienerpit by Kira’s rail gun and took it like mockery.
>Oh, so you’re trying to tell me if that was beam, I’d already be dead?

>We are trying to tell you that it WOULD NOT penetrate the Strike's PS armor. It was just a desperate effort to save Athrun.
So you are telling me that Federation Engineers programmed the Blitz darts to be able to cloak with, but not have phase shift? Where's the logic in that?

Phase Shift does not pierce Phase Shift, only beams do so it doesn't matter whether the darts have it or not, although even with the new info in mind I do not see any scene where Blitz's darts change color.

>they needed to hide in Orb
The stopover at Orb had been planned for a while before the ZAFT attack. In fact, they are explicit to point out that going there would be a huge detour from their trip to Alaska.

Yes, it’s still the same. I honestly don’t even know if they were deliberately animating it so Kira doesn’t mean to kill Nicol or they were and everyone irl just misconstrued it. Either way; the dialogue is identical. Athrun still yells that Kira killed him, Kira still explicitly states he killed someone in the aftermath, etc

>why made it look like that?

Fukuda is a stupid talentless hack.

*kuso

>did they make new animation for perfect strike or just replaced the animation of aile strike? is it the only time perfect strike launched or we see more of it?
Yes to new animation. Yes it's the only time, it is never seen again.

You don't remember Nicol running into the Anti-Ship Sword? Both versions of that are laughably bad.

That was one of his missiles attached to his shield, and he did it for lack of other options since his main weapon hand and the other weapon on his other hand had been cut off.

>Strike vs Aegis fight is actually fully animated
that's pretty cool.
>Nicol runs into Kira’s sword now instead of Kira deliberately killing him, making Kira far less guilty
that's moronic. the original shows kira killing him but stopped when he heard his scream.
>Vestige replaces Wings of Words as the fourth opening
so they went straight with 5th opening for the extended finale instead of the only terrible song
>nipples now visible through Meer’s night dress
so they finally start to have the balls to show them. took them long enough.

>Strike is replaced with Perfect Strike once Mwu starts piloting

Only at Orb. For the rest of the show he uses the usual packs, presumably because he has to lose to Cruset at Mendel due to a back pack match up and get utterly destroyed by Providence in the finale, something that probably wouldn't happen if he was using Perfect Strike there.

>Athrun's son (by whoever) takes after his grandfather

Durandal did nothing wrong except lose

Durandal trusted Athrun which is a full-moron-tier mistake.
Should've leaked the Saviour's flightpath to the EA to bait them into an attack, then planted a bomb on the machine to go off just for good measure.

Rey doesn't need Athrun on the scene to align Shinn with Durandal; Shinn already likes Durandal a lot because he's a politician because Durandal frames himself as a smart politician who makes sensible promises and actually carries them out.
Having Athrun on the scene simply became a liability. A better planner would've put him in the same bin as Lacus - exploit their influence to the populace in one hand (Meer), while the other hand tries to off them (Assassination attempt).

Nuclear reactor is still more output than a battery no matter how efficient it is. Shinn even says that Freedom is more powerful than Impulse when he's planning to fight it.

They didn't have infinite spare parts for Impulse. In fact Shinn basically uses up all of the extra chest flyers in that fight to the point where when Luna got the Impulse the one she used was the only one left and she couldn't call for repair parts when Athrun damaged it in the final fight.

At any rate all of the characters in the show itself, including Shinn and Rey when plotting to destroy it point out that Freedom is superior to Impulse in basically every way and Shinn would have his work cut out in taking it down. If it was the better suit in every way but time limit he wouldn't have had to fight as desperately as he did.

Shinn still very much wanted Kira dead and didn't want to end up disabled and humiliated like last time

So you're just being a shithead troll then

Nuclear power is better than battery. But you can't seem to wrap that around your brain.

It matters because Freedom flies faster and hits harder than Impulse because it's reactor.

Episode 33 Shinn says otherwise

He was running computer simulation battles against the Freedom so he probably knew what he was talking about, I can't find any official specs saying Impulse > Freedom either.

He was specifically trying to work out a way to defeat Freedom with Impulse via simulations, and was getting stomped at first because he said Freedom was more powerful than Impulse, with Rey chiming in that it's a testament to Kira's skill that he can control something with such powerful acceleration and output so precisely. Rey also says in the flashback during the fight where he points out Freedom doesn't aim for the wienerpit, that taking advantage of that pattern is the only way Impulse can win and that trying to straight up overpower Freedom won't work.

Everything you've said in this thread has been dead wrong

Freedom is better than the Impulse and Kira is a skilled pilot for being able to control such a powerful suit so easily. That's what is said. That is not wrong.

that's stock animation. They actually explain how difficult it is but they never show it. One of SEED's many faults

[...]

frick off

>Tell me when we'll get a concrete answer as to who actually built SF/IJ
looool you're only ever gonna get model kit manual answers since the show is done and fat chance that any more databooks are coming out

triggered af

that's stock animation. They actually explain how difficult it is but they never show it. One of SEED's many faults
[...]
frick off

>and Kira is a skilled pilot for being able to control such a powerful suit so easily
Tell me what exactly he is doing here. Unless there was some sort of man-computer interface at work, the machine is doing all the work.

Kira literally has to make the freedom target enough to only disable his enemies

>so at the very least Kira is making adjustments to make it shoot to disable
Okay, but do we see that? Or is that just speculation because some side material said "kira does a lot of effort to pilot freedom" despite all evidence to the contrary?
If you go only for what's depicted on screen, Kira's intervention during targeting is minimal to non-existing.

It's not side material. It's mentioned in the show by Shinn and Rey that Kira is incredibly skilled to pilot Freedom as precisely as he does and fight non lethally despite it's power.

Yeah because the computer will automatically target the non lethal parts without Kira telling it right?

>Tell me what exactly he is doing here.

he is selecting all targets with the thumbstick on the control

>and Kira is a skilled pilot for being able to control such a powerful suit so easily
Tell me what exactly he is doing here. Unless there was some sort of man-computer interface at work, the machine is doing all the work.

Pilot seat doesn't even have that typical "Gundam gunsight", which Strike did have.

>We have the freedom and impulse specs
We actually don't. The Impulse has never had a value for its propulsion listed. The only thing we know is that it's heavier than the Freedom, at 78.3 metric tons as the Force Impulse versus the Freedom's 71.5 metric tons.

They didn't build anything as powerful as Freedom in that time frame because of the new Treaty that prohibited use of nuclear energy in mobile suits. Even with the new Gundam's they needed to come up with the rechargeable battery system because they weren't allowed to use a NJC and nuclear reactor. Freedom was built during Patrick Zala's genocide phase, while Impulse and the other newer mobile suits were built during peacetime when Durandal had to play nice. It wasn't until the war started that Durandal was allowed to build stuff like the Destiny and Legend.

Kira had gotten too good for the Freedom.

Graham could be described as Setsuna telling the ELS to salvage him.
>Neil
Is that canon or something to appease the fans that never got a follow-up?
[...]
It was a unique scenario. Take them out on a field without prep and Freedom would've still been kicking. Kira had to deal with a man with on-demand replacement parts that wanted to kill him while he initially held back until his unit was pretty fricked. He had to keep an eye on AA and got distracted at the worst moment which led him to get bum rushed by Shinn with an AS sword.

honest question: do you think repeating this statement all the time helps to change opinions or is it just cope?

because i've been lurking seed threads for a bit and see this same line posted a lot

there are problems with angle down to be sure, but its a stretch to call it a "unique scenario" that cannot happen again

while kira and athrun have more experience and fought harder enemies than shinn, angel down demonstrates that shinn has a skill they rarely use: premediated planning

typically in fictional "deathmatch" scenarios on the internet people consider whether the characters are "lusted" and/or "have prep" and prep means a lot - know thy enemy

pretty much the most prep we see out of kira was during the final desert dawn battle where he asked for the aile striker because he was fighting bucues - again know thy enemy

most of the time kira (and athrun) just wing it in their fighting style and are reactive. this works for them, since they have a lot of skill and experience. its like the smart kid who doesn't need to study and will get an 'A' anyway

when shinn and rey try to do the same against them, they fail - because they're trying to beat kira/athrun at their game

shinn and rey didn't spend 1 minute really preparing for the final battle even though they already saw kira and athrun's new machines in battle (and zaft saw kira's new dragoons), which was a critical mistake on their part. but if they had done so (rather, if the idea crossed the writers mind), the outcome would've been quite different

i hope that in the movie we see a more strategically-minded shinn, but i do not hold my breath

>there are problems with angle down to be sure, but its a stretch to call it a "unique scenario" that cannot happen again
>while kira and athrun have more experience and fought harder enemies than shinn, angel down demonstrates that shinn has a skill they rarely use: premediated planning

It went beyond just "Shinn planned that one time and that's why he won" it was also a situation where Zaft had total control, AA was on the defensive trying to get Cagalli and her forces back to Orb over everything and in a position where they didn't have much room to maneuver and didn't want to look too aggressive because of Durandal's recent broadcasts. Kira spent most of that fight running away and had no real stake in defeating Shinn since if he could escape him that was all he needed. Had the rematch taken place during the invasion of Orb, where Kira had way more to lose and was more aggressive, Shinn might not have won so easily.

>shinn and rey didn't spend 1 minute really preparing for the final battle even though they already saw kira and athrun's new machines in battle (and zaft saw kira's new dragoons), which was a critical mistake on their part. but if they had done so (rather, if the idea crossed the writers mind), the outcome would've been quite different

They had two wars worth of data on the original Freedom to work with, one brief fight against SF and IJ is not nearly going to give them the same kind data to run countless simulations they had with the original Freedom. IJ didn't even use half it's weapons, and the grunts reporting SF used Dragoons once isn't going to give them enough data to accurately simulate their every use. And that's ignoring the fact that while Kira's piloting can be predictable, Athrun's is not and there's no obvious loophole to exploit with it the way Kira has. Not to mention Athrun pilots notably different units and changes up his style accordingly so trying to use Savior data to plan for IJ Athrun would be nigh useless.

>a strategy for the final battle would assume that the good guys are going to prioritize disabling/damaging requiem and messiah, not run away.

That would be even worse for Shinn and Rey because it means they're on the clock to defeat them before the main fleet can get to Reqiuem and Messiah and can't afford to waste time with a strategy designed to whittle them down like last time. Which is effectively what happened in the show where Athrun and AA left to join the main fleet and Rey had to send Shinn ahead to fight Athrun rather than double team Kira because by the time they defeated him (if they even could) Requiem would have been destroyed.

>you are assuming victory for zaft requires a perfect simulation model of kira and athrun in their new machines, which is wrong.

That's how it worked the first time where the simulation was so good Shinn could predict Kira's every shot and move. Just good enough wouldn't cut it in a rematch, without being able to completely shut down Kira and Athrun they'd have to fight them head on, which they do and they lose. Even in Angel Down Shinn got crippled and had to repair and try again when he got too aggressive too early and Kira was able to get a counter in.

>athrun is bruteforce. he has multiple sabers but a limited moveset that he can execute very well, but his fighting style isn't creative at all.

That's even worse since it means there's no way around having to fight him head on, in which case Shinn and Rey lose because Athrun is the superior pilot

>wrong. the "big picture" victory condition for zaft is not "defeat kira, athrun and the rest of the orb/terminal forces".
>their victory condition is to hold off until requiem can fire and destroy orb. as lacus says, if they lose orb, they lose the world.

Wrong, their condition is to defeat Kira and Athrun because Shinn and Rey are the only ones with powerful enough machines to do so otherwise they'll just tear apart everyone else on their way to Requiem which they were basically doing until Shinn and Rey showed up and is what they go back to doing after they're defeated. Kira basically single handedly destroys Messiah himself with the Meteor.

>again wrong assumption. they could deploy an obstruction strategy where they get in the way, but then act defensive. buy time for requiem.

Also wrong that that will work because they tried something just like that and Athrun just went ahead while Kira covered him at which point Shinn had to chase after him and become aggressive. Also what "obstruction strategy" would they be able to try? They were trying to stop them all from getting to Reqiuem, and failing. How exactly is Shinn going to block Infinite Justice with Destiny, IJ is better equipped for turtling than Destiny is.

>meta's Llama 2 which is analogous in this scenario.

What does real life systems have to do with what they are working with in CE circa 20 years ago? For that matter Kira and other Coordinators have superhuman intelligence and thinking anyway.

>He didn't come up with the strategy for Angel Down, Rey did

a semi fair point. but shinn took the initiative to sit down and prepare for a fight against the freedom with simulations. rey provided a critical insight.

but you conviently ignore that even after angle down, kira prefers to disable and not kill. even against the destiny, he disarmed its sword, and shinn comments that he could've ended it all right then.

kira was still kira.

>it certainly doesn't prove Shinn is the superior pilot to Kira

which i never said. i said this is a stat where shinns is higher than kiras or athruns. based on what we have been shown in canon, that is the case.

>Could Shinn repeat that outside of that specific situation? I don't think so.

you dont think so because you see pilot skill in terms of some kind of "Premise 1: A > B; Premise 2: B > C; Conclusion: A > C" math transitivity logic, and if shinn did prep to beat kira again kira haters would have more evidence to say hes better.

this is what I said here [...]
>imo thats what the haters think subconsciously, the quiet part they do not say out loud.

even still i disagree with that logic.

it is a low-resolution way to gauge piloting ability.

you have to take a more detailed and criteria-oriented view of the pilots.

for instance, shinns lowest stat is his ability to keep calm and collected. he sucks at this.

rey pointed it out at orb that if got hot under the collar he would lose. and that is what happened.

>short notice another plan

they would actually have a decent amount of time to come up with something prior to the final battle.

zaft has requiem. kira and athrun are going to come to them. so they need to be ready. simple.

please read this post: [...]

>In fact I'd dare

you can think that all you want.

but its not at all convincing.

because your motivation is to defend kira and athrun as being better pilots.

and motivation is the master of reasoning - not the other way around.

anyway, this thread reminded me why its nice to lurk seed threads, lol.

or gundam threads in general.

>for instance, shinns lowest stat is his ability to keep calm and collected. he sucks at this.

this is his most major weakness. he needs to be more like athrun, and keep a cooler, objective head in harder situations.

but this mostly a product of immaturity and trauma.

at least, thats what I think fukuda wanted to portray with the constant flashbacks.

developed shinn is like kratos from god of war. gets pissed off easily. will kick your ass. easily.

kira and athrun do not get off the hook.

they also have stupid weaknesses.

kira could overcome his weakness by being more like shinn.

kill his enemies instead of sparing them like a b***h.

make them shit their pants at the sight of the strike freedom on the other side of the battlefield. currently they fear showing up home with the same of defeat. make them fear the possibility of not showing up ever again.

then they wont be so brazen for a fight

morosawa wanted kira to be like kenshin himura.

but before taking up the reverse blade sword, he was battousai the manslayer, which kira never was

so go in reverse and make kira into battousai the manslayer

athrun could overcome his weakness by being more like kira.

tune the political stuff out more. as heine said "stop worrying".
be like kira by figuring out where you want to be and just be there. and defend it.

that way he wont be in a stupid situation where hes uncertain of everything and loses like a b***h.

so ironic he tries to lecture others on knowing what their fighting for while never having a clear picture of it.

lol

developed athrun is like mikasa ackerman.

reys problem is that he a plot device because fukuda realized how much rau carried seed.

there is no fix for this. whomp whomp.

but he dead anyway.

>oh wait all my references are not gundam, not even /m/
yeah, now i remember why i now mostly lurk here

None of this will work because Kira and Athrun are better. Frick off with your ESL reddit posting and kindly die thanks.

>Yes he was.
lolno. Battousai Kenshin was almost machine-like. An agent of the revolution who showed very little emotion and would effortlessly cut down all who stood in his way with lethal force without hesitation.
That description doesn't match Kira at all.
Kira is extremely passionate, but Battousai Kenshin was a cold-blooded killer.
That's because Morosawa's writing is a case of wanting the destination without understanding the journey: To truly replicate Kenshin Himura one must fully embrace kiddy porn.

>were shocked at the degree of his brutality.
Fricking when? At most the Archangel crew were shocked at how quickly he leveled up as a pilot.

the point im trying to make is that shinns skill in premeditation is better than kira. or even athrun for that matter.

that there is a "combat stat" where shinns is higher. an aspect where he is a better pilot.

you seem to act like he can only use that skill once. that he'd never be able to do that again. i disagree.

as an analogy, consider top gun maverick which came out last year. during training maverick stresses that they dont want to get into a dogfight because the enemy has "fifth generation fighters" and his students will be no match for them. so he makes a plan that employs sun tzu logic:
>defeat the enemy (hit the objective) without fighting them at all.

but worse case scenario happens, and against some faceless nameless mook in a "fifth generation fighter" he has to pull out all the stops to barely come out on top, even getting caught off guard when the su-57 does its thruster vectoring trick.

>he got his shit pushed in hard during ORB.

thats kind of extreme. he lost his temper, and he tried to just rely on brute force rather than being more adaptive and novel in his fighting style.

if anything, he "got his shit pushed in hard" because he adopted a fighting style more like athruns than like kiras.

and even still, kira popped seed to catch the destinys sword and blow it away. after shinn activated his own seed. then he just shot at kira with his rifle and kira was grunting in discomfort having to deal with.

As someone said though it goes beyond just Shinn can win if he has time to prep and if he'd done his homework on SF he would have dominated against Kira again. Angel Down was very carefully crafted by Durandal and Rey to be a situation where Shinn could 1 v 1 Kira in the perfectly ideal conditions where Shinn held all the cards. And that kind of detailed strategy they created for Shinn with Freedom's data is not something they could recreate again even if they tried to.

>If you think he could win without being that prepared against Kira

which i never said.

kira and athrun have 2 years experience on shinn. the seed druggies put the destiny druggies to shame. shinn never fought a foe who wanted to kill him with as much passion as yzak or athrun (after nicol died) wanted to kill kira. the toughest pilot kira faced in seed was rau. the toughest pilot athrun faced in seed was kira. but the toughest pilot shinn faced in destiny before fighting kira was probably mwu, who isnt as skilled as kira or rau.

so of course in terms of the raw "melee combat ability" and "ranged combat ability" stats, kira and athruns are higher than shinns. the only stat shinn has that is about the same is maybe his speed stat.

but the capacity for premeditation is a stat, or ability, that is just as important to consider when gauging a pilots ability as "melee combat skill" or "ranged combat skill".

because if "premeditation" is a stat, it is the one stat shinn has that is provably higher than kiras or athruns.

and for that reason it is wrong to say that kira and athrun are better than shinn in every way. imo thats what the haters think subconsciously, the quiet part they do not say out loud.

hence why i look at these posts about angle down and cannot help but just see it as "cope"

because it is a stat, and one where shinns is provably higher.

and arguably, a more important stat than "melee combat skill" or "ranged combat skill".

as the saying goes
>preparation is everything

>He didn't come up with the strategy for Angel Down, Rey did

a semi fair point. but shinn took the initiative to sit down and prepare for a fight against the freedom with simulations. rey provided a critical insight.

but you conviently ignore that even after angle down, kira prefers to disable and not kill. even against the destiny, he disarmed its sword, and shinn comments that he could've ended it all right then.

kira was still kira.

>it certainly doesn't prove Shinn is the superior pilot to Kira

which i never said. i said this is a stat where shinns is higher than kiras or athruns. based on what we have been shown in canon, that is the case.

>Could Shinn repeat that outside of that specific situation? I don't think so.

you dont think so because you see pilot skill in terms of some kind of "Premise 1: A > B; Premise 2: B > C; Conclusion: A > C" math transitivity logic, and if shinn did prep to beat kira again kira haters would have more evidence to say hes better.

this is what I said here

>If you think he could win without being that prepared against Kira

which i never said.

kira and athrun have 2 years experience on shinn. the seed druggies put the destiny druggies to shame. shinn never fought a foe who wanted to kill him with as much passion as yzak or athrun (after nicol died) wanted to kill kira. the toughest pilot kira faced in seed was rau. the toughest pilot athrun faced in seed was kira. but the toughest pilot shinn faced in destiny before fighting kira was probably mwu, who isnt as skilled as kira or rau.

so of course in terms of the raw "melee combat ability" and "ranged combat ability" stats, kira and athruns are higher than shinns. the only stat shinn has that is about the same is maybe his speed stat.

but the capacity for premeditation is a stat, or ability, that is just as important to consider when gauging a pilots ability as "melee combat skill" or "ranged combat skill".

because if "premeditation" is a stat, it is the one stat shinn has that is provably higher than kiras or athruns.

and for that reason it is wrong to say that kira and athrun are better than shinn in every way. imo thats what the haters think subconsciously, the quiet part they do not say out loud.

hence why i look at these posts about angle down and cannot help but just see it as "cope"

because it is a stat, and one where shinns is provably higher.

and arguably, a more important stat than "melee combat skill" or "ranged combat skill".

as the saying goes
>preparation is everything

>imo thats what the haters think subconsciously, the quiet part they do not say out loud.

even still i disagree with that logic.

it is a low-resolution way to gauge piloting ability.

you have to take a more detailed and criteria-oriented view of the pilots.

for instance, shinns lowest stat is his ability to keep calm and collected. he sucks at this.

rey pointed it out at orb that if got hot under the collar he would lose. and that is what happened.

>short notice another plan

they would actually have a decent amount of time to come up with something prior to the final battle.

zaft has requiem. kira and athrun are going to come to them. so they need to be ready. simple.

please read this post:

>That would be even worse for Shinn and Rey because it means they're on the clock

wrong. the "big picture" victory condition for zaft is not "defeat kira, athrun and the rest of the orb/terminal forces".

their victory condition is to hold off until requiem can fire and destroy orb. as lacus says, if they lose orb, they lose the world.

strike 1.

>strategy designed to whittle them down like last time.

again wrong assumption. they could deploy an obstruction strategy where they get in the way, but then act defensive. buy time for requiem. the more time passes, the more stress will mount for kira and athrun, and by human nature, the more likely they will be to make mistakes.

strike two.

>Requiem would have been destroyed

also wrong assumption. in canon it was the infinite justice and akatsuki that destroyed it. so shinn needs to delay athrun, not defeat him.

that leaves mwu and the fake black tri-stars, which is a separate issue though.

strike three. you are out.

>how it worked the first time where the simulation

no. you have no idea what you are talking about. you did not understand my post. especially the part where i mention meta's Llama 2 which is analogous in this scenario.

if you have a perfect simulation there is no need for a pilot, since you can generate an ai with that simulation (like the dolls from wing) that is capable of perfectly predicting and countering every move the opponent will make.

and ai exists in seed. haros. part of the natural MS OS like the strike rouge.

but you need a pilot because perfection is lie. unobtainable. as I said
>to learn is to generalize
and humans are much better at this still than ai in critical aspects, e.g. how wrong chatgpt can be when it "hallucinates".

so no, shinn/rey can just take whatever simulation model they have against the freedom, and fine-tune it on new data from kiras new machine, and strategize.

>In fact I'd dare

you can think that all you want.

but its not at all convincing.

because your motivation is to defend kira and athrun as being better pilots.

and motivation is the master of reasoning - not the other way around.

I feel like that was the only way to have Kira get defeated so Freedom would be destroyed while still having him easily be a match for Shinn later on.

Despite the Freedom Rouge fanart Cagalli couldn't have handled Freedom. Mu might not have either, as I'm pretty sure it's said somewhere that nuclear powered MS are too powerful for Natural pilots to handle, improved OS or not.

Despite the Freedom Rouge fanart Cagalli couldn't have handled Freedom. Mu might not have either, as I'm pretty sure it's said somewhere that nuclear powered MS are too powerful for Natural pilots to handle, improved OS or not.

Officially the Destroys and most of the mobile armors have no listed power source, even if logically the only way they could be powered is nuclear because batteries clearly wouldn't last for them.

It's also not mentioned anywhere that nuclear powered MS/MA are too powerful for naturals to use either, though.

>I'm pretty sure it's said somewhere that nuclear powered MS are too powerful for Natural pilots to handle
Prayer, who was not a coordinator handled dreadnought which is a nuclear powered gundam though

The nuclear reactor powers everything. It's what gave it 5 times the power of Strike as Kira says when he turns it on for the first time.

Any mobile suit losing a limb mid fight without any replacement will put you at a major disadvantage in a dog fight

a homosexual like like shitt asuka can't kill the Savior jesus Yamato

shitt had unlimited spare parts that's why losing any limbs/parts of MS doesn't really affects him

The nuclear reactor powers everything. It's what gave it 5 times the power of Strike as Kira says when he turns it on for the first time.

Freedom either carries a frick ton of fuel or runs it's thrusters right off it's reactor because Kira flew all the way from Plant to Earth at top speed, performed atmospheric reentry, fought a battle, outran the Cyclops explosion and after all that Kira still says he has no need of any resupplying and could take Freedom and jet off to far far away if he needed to.

>Maybe Rau apologizes to Mwu and they become a close family and hug.
This would be kino. The cycle of hatred gets extinguished and everyone lives happily ever after in CE

>Omake CDs
They aren't canon. Just like all skits with Shinn crossdressing and pretending to be a girl isn't canon either. They are extra fun things made to help sell the TV series disc boxset so fans who buy it feel like they are getting something exclusive.

>They are
Prove it.

One of the last things Morosawa wrote for the series. Shinn lists a load of reasons he thinks Athrun is a pain in the ass, but comments that Kira seems like a nice warm guy.

Shinn also awkwardly thanks Athrun for stopping him in the final Genesis fight, but Athrun’s response is autistic and the end up screaming at each other.

It doesn't, because it's probably meant in that "I intimately know this person, so I can trash-talk about him" friendly manner. In other words, the same as that scene where Cagalli confronts Athrun and he describes Kira as "whiny" and "impulsive".

Not only is Shinn not looking but when Freedom first attacks him in episode 23 he says in the next episode that he'd heard the name and stories but had never seen the actual mobile suit before.

Like I said, Kuwashima Houko did say that she has a role in the movie.