>Show pilot/pitch looks great
>You get excited
>Show comes out and for some fricking reason the whole art direction has been changed to look more bland, industry-esque and ugly
>Sometimes the whole themes and feel of the show changes with it
>It's no longer what you were excited for
This happens so often, what's even the point? Also why? Do studios take shows they don't reeeally like and then demand they be changed? Or do they pick up a show and then the seal is dealed and the creators can just change it and frick it up however they like from here and the studio can no longer kick em cause they're already bought? Frick this is annoying regardless
Executives are responsible for all of that
While this is true it baffles me that not a single person working on it says "hold on now, you bought us for what you saw, why are you making the whole thing shitter?"
Do they have absolutely no contract?
Actually now that I think about it, does that have anything to do with how nobody in the industry is allowed to criticize the industry or their fellow industry members? Does it also extend to 'never question the cult's practices'
I think you're kinda right on that last point, and that contracts usually screw over the artists more than it helps them. The executives are pretty much in a solid position of power where they hold all the wealth and really don't give a frick if they hire you for your cartoon over someone else. There is very little difference to them between the next greatest animated series with amazing characters and animation, and the next Frickface and Farthead annoy Squidward McWhogivesashit show. So if you were to try and demand to keep a significant amount of control over your project they can just tell you to go frick yourself and pick up one of the many other desperate artists trying to pitch a cartoon, while you continue to struggle without work.
Same with that criticising the industry thing, If you speak your mind about how you don't like the way things are done, or excessive executive meddling your less likely to be hired for work by those same executives. The people with the money hold all the power, unsurprisingly.
(check'd)
this is true but i don't think the executives are all to blame because the artists are still the ones making the changes, sure maybe they can't argue with the execs and tell em to eat shorts, but they're still the ones making the final bland design which says something about their thoughts process as well as the ones who look at it an smile boldly and say "yes this is art i just made, nobody criticize it i'm a widdol sensitive soul, nobody say mean things about my CREATIVE VISION!"
no, frick that
you can't be all
>i-i'm being forced to do this, save me
and also
>this is mine mine mine mine mine i'm the special boy me me me!
all at the same time
It's true, but I don't think I am entirely in a position to judge these cartoon creators. Sometimes it just seems like trying to make the most of a bad situation and find pride in your work even when it isn't all great. I think that's a pretty normal human response. Think of it as someone who is forced to live in a shitty old house, maybe due to financial problems. Just because the house is naturally terrible and limited in what it can be, they can still take pride in keeping it clean and doing all the upkeep to make it their home. Sure, they know that its not a very good house, and them having to live in it is apart of their misfortune. But it's still their house they put the work into. Having some random guy come along and give them crap for being in that house obviously is gonna piss that person off.
It's essentially rubbing salt in the wound which is where this oversensitivity you describe comes from and desire to still cling onto the show as their creation.
you may be right but you just can't afford to be this sensitive when you're making media
nobody HAS to come to your house and check it out and give their two shits about it
but people WILL watch your show and WILL criticize it because that's what media is all about, being consumed and then commented on
if you're working in this industry you can't be a whiny b***h who will cry if someone speaks badly of your work, and i think a big problem with the industry now is that it's full of people like that
easy to manipulate, sure, but hard to work with and harder to communicate with and ultimately people who cannot make good media, because i believe you fundamentally can't create if you have fear in your heart, especially fear of how your creation is perceived which drives you to alter it
The parasocial aspect of being a creator has been a disaster. If these people stayed off of social media (which they professionally cannot because execs don't want to pay for actual marketers), there would never be a whining problem in the industry to begin with.
Every executive is high on coke, so just snort a few lines and their decisions will make sense.
>Artist snorts a few lines of coke
>Makes a piece that would take ancient aliens twelve millenia to decipher
>CEO snorts a line of coke
>"Make it bland! Blander! Really blend! I want it so boring that I'll fall asleep looking at it even with all this coke up my nose!"
What the frick is wrong with executives, man
It's not executives, the simple reality is that animation as a business relies on studios matching a style guide and it's way way way cheaper to re-use or slightly alter a style they're already trained on than to teach them a new one.
Capitalism is a race to the bottom, if you don't like it then support UBI.
bait smells bad
Anon, who do you think sets the budgets on these things? Starts with an E
No creator has ever made a change to their work without somebody with authority telling them to
1. objectively untrue
2. again, even if they were told to make the changes, they're usually the ones making them and it takes observing what kinda changes they make to be able to tell something about a person
If creators have as much control as you claim they do, they wouldn't need studios at all
>creators have no control
>that's not true
>oh so what, you think they have ALL the control? ALL OF IT?
what is it with low IQ motherfrickers and not comprehending the concept of a middle ground? it's always 'all or nothing' with you lot
Creators have little control as it is. If it comes off like they're gloating about doing shit work, odds are they don't have a choice
>E
I KNEW HE WAS BEHIND IT ALL ALONG
Executives merely follow the incentives of the industry. The machine of capitalism is what forms those incentives. The individuals don't matter.
It is literally illegal to not be as cheap as possible on production.
dude shut up we're not joining your commie orgy commune
Enjoy your dogshit commercialized art made by disposable wageslaves
Just stop asking why it's like this.
You know why.
>Or do they pick up a show and then the seal is dealed and the creators can just change it and frick it up however they like from here and the studio can no longer kick em cause they're already bought?
You'd be blaming the wrong person here. It's the studios that want the bland art direction because it's cheaper, and it's the studios who want simpler themes because as far as they see it they are just producing entertainment slop for stupid children who don't need complex messages outside of basic kid friendly morals to appease parents. What you are seeing is the result of the production of art being controlled by businessmen instead of artists.
this, also sometimes we pick projects only to make sure other companies can't pick them, not because we want them.
I hate this guy's webcomics so much they're ironically such shitty portable argument crap and the little bit of his personality that does shine through the crappy style he has created in order to have as little personality as possible evokes the images of a psychopath who will stab you for disagreeing with them
Does it really matter *how* people regurgitate the crowdsourced rhetoric of their respective hive minds? It wouldn't make them any more of thinking human beings if they had to type it out.
I agree with this particular point, though, I just hate all of you dumb, interchangeable, conformist cattle.
this is just boiling the argument down to the point where it's meaningless. who draws this shit?
>why art cheap and bad in purely commercial society where no one can survive pursuing their passions!?
It's a mystery.
The best of art was made without approval and by people who valued art and self fulfillment over comfort
Being comfortable isn't gonna make all the real artists come out of the woodwork, it's just gonna make all the posers and hobby tourists decide picking up art because it's the cool new thing to do- aaand wouldjalookitthat, it's exactly what's happening in the industry
If someone can't create because they're not comfy womfy enough, they're not an artist- they're akin to a chicken who won't lay eggs because it's nest it's heated enough and it's food isn't the highest grade
Art is a human phenomena and everyone who needs to be oiled up and shined and buffed and have their software up to date so they can create isn't an artist, it's just a drawing machine
That's what the industry wants now, machines, machines that'll give you passionless crap as long as they have air conditioned rooms and lattes because they're not actually inspired to create, it seemed cheap and easy at first because artists are tough to work with but turns out it's kinda hard to wrangle a buncha pussyhomosexuals who only draw because it's socially acceptable to, and don't live in a world where cartooning isn't an inherently kewl and trendy career choice and instead gets you mocked for pursuing, which filters hobby tourists and only keeps in the people who care
If you think there's no good art in the industry because it's not comfy and convenient and desirable and profitable enough to work in, then you honestly think real artists who care about art and expression are more needy than hobby tourists. You must realize how stupid that sounds. Reply saying you didn't read this post if you like gay buttsex. The industry is incredibly luxurious, but only for people who don't care about art. AKA it's been created FOR posers, not artists. "Make it EVEN COMFIER" it's the answer, that's just gonna attract more posers.
We must gatekeep.
>We shouldn't give people the means to pursue art without a patron because art only comes from literally starving
Frick off c**t
Shut up commie you don't even make art
I accept your concession
>I accept your concession
Speaking of none of that... I remember how nobody on Cinemaphile really said this anymore for like 10 years or so until some guy made a greentext about it that got bit on r/greentext and then suddenly everyone started saying it again
I guess it went from meaning "let's end this argument" to "I win I win I win!" huh
You don't have to respond to me btw I'm just thinking out loud in regard to your post you can go back to your orgy
>I guess it went from meaning "let's end this argument" to "I win I win I win!" huh
Its because the argument devolved into moronic buzzwords. When someone starts slinging shitty responses around, shitty responses get slung back at them. "I accept your concession" basically means the person they are replying too didn't reply with any actual meaningful argument and just resorted to more buzzword shit, meaning if they aren't willing to make a proper argument they are essentially conceding it. It's a symptom of a larger problem with discourse on the internet.
Yeah, said problem being the belief that every argument, discussion, conversation or debate is supposed to be "won" and I fricking hate that, I hate this "winning" culture so much because people refuse to actually talk and just try and win, usually by stupid metrics like getting the other guy to stop talking or give up or make a mild typo or something
>yeah bro, it's so stupid, like, the guy arguing that people should be able to eat is just trying to win
And on the other hand you have disingenuous annoying guys like this, who really do need to be told "shut up gay" now and then
anon if you're going to shit out moronic uninformed opinions on Cinemaphile don't act surprised that you get called on them
shut up gay
I dunno if you've ever had a discussion with a living human being, but I'm older than the internet, and it's always been like this, in person or online.
>I'm older than the internet
No you're fricking not mate you're guaranteed like 16
Post pics or I don't believe ya
so? just cause something is old doesn't make it good, even if something has always been that way you can still criticize it
look at yourself for proof, sounds to me like you're quite old but y'aint quite smart
Nowhere in my post did I say you can't, or that it's a good thing.
You're about to ask what I meant, then. Because you're dumb. My point is that there's no "winning culture", this is just what people are like. Always and forever. There's no hope.
Frick you don't assume what I meant grandpa I'm young and spry and can still frick your ass
"I can't make art because I am not comfortable enough" is just as arbitrary as "You can't make good art without suffering". The reason people deserve better treatment isn't because they are artists and that's something artists inherently need to function, but because they are human and ideally we should treat fellow humans with respect and proper treatment.
I'm also not exactly getting the logic of the gatekeeping here, as its clearly not working. The industry currently isn't pandering to making it convenient for the actual artists, yet all these hard working grizzled non poser artists haven't come out of the woodwork to be the only ones still working on it. The majority of artists going into the uncomfortable system are the posers you claim to dislike. Clearly this method doesn't actually work to attract talented people, maybe because they are smart enough to know its a scam. Meaning more posers get attracted in the current way things are done.
>"You can't make good art without suffering"
No, no, reread the post anon
It's not "you can't make good art without suffering"
It's "real artists are driven to make art DESPITE suffering"
Which is true
> The reason people deserve better treatment is-
Doesn't matter, the point of the post is that artists are there from the start, and once things get too comfortable, the non-artists start coming in
You're completely misunderstanding what's being said, the point is that the first anon said "there's no good art because the industry isn't comfy" and the post you're responding to said "no, the industry being comfy would mean there's no art tourists, not real artists, because real artists come first."
Think of real artists like hardy fish who can live in any aquarium conditions, and of fake poser artists as exotic fish who need very comfortable conditions.
The hardy fish still PREFER good conditions, it's not that shitty conditions make them thrive- it's just that if THEY'RE not there, then then the exotic fish wouldn't be there either. One inherently comes before the other. And if you make the conditions too comfy and let all the exotic fish settle in, they'll draw out the hardy fish.
Is
Is that being understood?
>the first anon said "there's no good art because the industry isn't comfy"
Anon you're the first one who said that.
Have you been arguing with yourself?
So, would you say the current industry is full of posers or real artists? Usually I get the impression a lot of people here think it's the former. But that wouldn't make sense if the posers would only come in if things were "comfy". Since things generally aren't very good at the moment. There are some shows that could be seen as good or decent, but a lot of stuff that people would call instantly forgettable, going by that reposted meme image.
it could've been something special ;~;
Xiaolin Chronicles. the test clip that leaked was so fricking good. But the actual series was fricking awful.
>Show pilot/pitch looks great
Is it the year 2010 in this thread?
What is Bee and Puppycat, Alex?
This has been happening since the 90s. Probably longer.
>why are visual styles in pilots so much better than production
Because production saves money by adapting a style they already work with or sanding down the edges of the pilot's style to be cheaper and more consistent to animate quickly
>why does production need to save as much money as possible
because production companies bid on contracts and the lower bid is going to win. It's a race to the bottom.
>why won't a company that can fund this kind of work spend more money for higher quality
because there's no way to show on a graph that spending that extra money actually led to increased popularity and profits, and even if you could that would require anyone to care about long-term return when C-suite performance is graded purely on short-term growth
>durrr it's good that art isn't a viable career because that weeds out the posers!
Actually it weeds out anyone with a functioning brain. It's the reason there's been such a massive loss of institutional knowledge in illustration and animation. Shit, this isn't just limited to illustration - I bet you lament how shit AAA games are today, don't you? Well guess what: they suck because giant publishers formed monopolies and turned game dev employment into a burn-and-turn shit show so everyone with a speck of sense left.
>It's the reason there's been such a massive loss of institutional knowledge in illustration and animation. Shit, this isn't just limited to illustration - I bet you lament how shit AAA games are today, don't you? Well guess what: they suck because giant publishers formed monopolies and turned game dev employment into a burn-and-turn shit show so everyone with a speck of sense left.
I sorta get this impression as well. Normally in a healthy system the people with experience making cartoons would continue to work in the industry and essentially train new people as they work on shows together. This is why you had that family tree of shows originating from Flapjack. However, if the older people aren't actually around to pass down skills to the next generations of animators, the quality of shows will naturally go down over time. And what incentive is there for people to stay in an industry that's so terrible? I'm recalling what Craig McCraken said when asked why he was willing to return back to his older properties like powerpuff girls, the unhealthy rebooting trend that executives like to push these days. He responded that he tried pitching 16 original ideas to netflix and not a single one interested them. How is any creator supposed to think working in this kind of environment is healthy for them? People with actual talent aren't going to want to participate in this. The only ones who do are people willing to churn out whatever shit is asked for them or very desperate people who really are passionate about animation but are willing to bend over to get it made, because some animation is better than no animation in their eyes.
hi guys
here's a question tho- why did cartoons used to be more diverse in style and themes, their creators more passionate, and the people working on them more tough and less sensitive? i'm sure if i say they used to be "better" you'd argue with me till your mom comes home so i'll leave that subjective part up in the air, but the former three points are observable
so why?
the answer is that the cartoon industry was run by cartoon lovers, and the money people just took what they were given and didn't meddle, this, effectively, WAS a form of gatekeeping, because people without a vision need their hand held constantly to create mediocre products from garbage, and this handholding lowers quality work DOWN to garbage
in other words the current industry steamrolls everything to the same level of shit, allowing more shit to slide in on top of settle in nicely
>It's not gigantic monopolies cutting costs and making the industry dogshit to work in leading to everyone with a brain in their head leaving, it's that we let in too many undesirables!
You're being manipulated.
Black person can you read?
>It's not gigantic monopolies (...) it's that we let in too many undesirables!
why are you phrasing it like the two are separate issues that can't exist at once?
the gigantic monopolies and brainless controlling CEOs are undesirables
they then bring in more undesirables in the form of yes-men and skilless artists
>uhhh...uhhh....the CEO's are the undesirables!
youtried.png
>repeating the very rational thing i said but adding in "uhh uhh" to make it sound unreasonable
seriously this is why we hate having industry people come in here
you guys are unbearable
Anon how many times do people have to kick your shit in before you take a hint and frick off
is this what you think this is? some kinda schoolyard spat? a bullying attempt? grow up
Get some more easily defensible opinions so you don't have to resort to conflation and crying after someone dismantles your walls of text with a single line
I actually think a lot of artists in the industry these days are passionate, perhaps too passionate, and that's a problem. They really WANT to make some amazing work of art but a combination of their own skills being limited and of course the unhealthy limitations placed on them by the executives means they can't actually do that.
And do note I made a distinction between limitations and unhealthy limitations, since some artists definitely could use some tard wrangling (although that's usually better done by other artists on the project).
A separate but related problem is art school funding - Arts grants are pretty small, there's very little industry support, and a huge chunk of the market has been taken up by grifting companies like Full Sail that sell shit like "video game developer" degrees.
Art schools get nearly all their funding from tuition and so they fight tooth and nail to sign up as many people as they can, which means catering to what the kids want to learn instead of teaching them what they need to know.
Although these days I doubt they could hire anyone that could and would teach the necessary skills. I have a good friend that was offered a position running an illustration department for a fairly large school. He turned it down to become tradie.
Because what you see on screen is drawn by a studio half way around the world, with their own talent, weaknesses, and production pipelines.
People give way too much credit/blame to storyboarders, and not enough to the outsource studio. Find any show that has a high range of quality (i.e. Steven Universe), and find their production codes. It'll become very clear the quality is completely tied to which studio is animating.