So how did boomers react to Cyclops marrying his dead girlfriend's clone and then his dead girlfriend coming back to life?
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So how did boomers react to Cyclops marrying his dead girlfriend's clone and then his dead girlfriend coming back to life?
Geezeranon here. Seemed just like just one more day of completely weird shit in Xman land.
I mean is it any weirder than Cable, or that chuck austen Nightcrawler stuff, or Psylocke?
>Geezeranon here. Seemed just like just one more day of completely weird shit in Xman land.
This. Never mind the Nightcrawler crap or Chuck Austen, Madelyne was still part of the original Claremont Comics Cavalcade, that had such highlights as 13-year-old Kitty Pryde all but begging Colossus to stretch out her tight teenage twat with his iron wang, Rogue getting new designer clothes at the start of each issue and having it shredded by the end of it, Kitty getting soul raped by a 15th century demon samurai, or punk amazons from Savage Land begging Colossus to impregnate them at the grave of their recently deceased sister, or Juggernaut being a giant Dazzler fan.
>-Maddie goes crazy
That was a fair bit longer than just that. First Cyke bails on her completely, she takes a commercial plane flight from Alaska to New York but the plane crashes (she is emerging from the vaguely bird-shaped flames as the sole survivor, wink wink), she finds out that her baby was stolen away, that she has no computer records any longer as if she never existed, and no one including Cyke is acknowledging her. Then the Marauders try to kill her in the hospital. Then they have to fake their death while defeating some ancient evil with the x-men and then they have to live in the australian desert, and she it being taken cared by Alex Summers (whose girlfriend, Polaris, was a Marauder at the time due to being possessed by a marauder named Malice). Did I mention she also lost her baby? And between that part and Inferno, she also finds out she is just a clone because Colossus wearing women's underwear wanted to steal her baby for a science project, and that Cyke is banging the girl she was cloned from.
I mean after all that, making deals with demons and trying to unleash hell on earth is kind of a small step.
It's one of the reasons when she tries it again later, along with it being canon than nobody in NYC cares when the place is invaded anymore, that nobody gets really mad at her. Everyone treats it like a pitiful cry for help which checks out because it basically is at that point when you attack a city that just ignored having entire chunks of it occupied by Knullified monsters for months and don't even kill anybody.
>Kitty getting soul raped by a 15th century demon samurai
Source?
Ogun, in the Kitty Pride and Wolverine mini. The mind rape part was actually pretty creepy. Note that Kitty is just standing here because she was drugged.
It ends with Ogun supplanting her own soul into Kitty, which is how he has been alive for centuries.
>find where his brother was
sorry for the quotes, I was busy reading the thread while posting this.
And this is how Kitty was soul raped by a japanese samurai/ninja that has been alive for centuries.
Later on she goes and nearly kills Wolverine, but Wolverine's then-girlfriend knocks her out from behind (yeah right), drugs her, and takes her to a mountain retreat where they reverse the brainwashing. All Kitty is left with are a bunch of nightmares and a lifetime of japanese skills like speaking, gardening on a zen master level, and a lifetime of ninja training. It's where she decides to go from kitten to "Shadowcat".
And how does she nearly kill Wolverine? Why, she tires him out for a day until he makes a mistake, then stabs her in the heart. That's it. This was before Wolverine could re-heal from being nuked to a skeleton, when Wolverines healing was just "he can heal faster than humans" as opposed to regenerating from a single drop of blood.
And if you thought this story with Kitty is not just the writers barely disguised fetish, remember that she also almost married Caliban at one point.
>This was before Wolverine could re-heal from being nuked to a skeleton, when Wolverines healing was just "he can heal faster than humans" as opposed to regenerating from a single drop of blood.
Oh god. How did that ever get so out of hand.
Well, Wolverine should have something so survive an onslaught of Punisher after all.
It just sorta happened. It started getting stronger during the Outback Era and by the time Claremont left Wolverine could heal from basically anything that wouldn't outright kill a normal person in a few days.
Minus Age of Apocalypse where his hand was burned off into a crisp alongside the fricking adamantium
Back when he had his adamantium removed by Magneto, first he had no healing factor because it overtaxed itself healing him from having every blood vessel punctured, and he had bone claws (and whenever he popped the claws, his hand would bleed for a few minutes as the claws broke the skin).
At some point he got his healing back but he also went insane and full feral, and was drawn like a moronic dog wearing a headband. At this point they said the only way to kill him was decapitation AND moving his head far away before it can re-attach the nerves.
It was then explained that he always had that strong healing, but the adamantium interfered with how his bones worked plus it was also toxic. So he was always slowly dying but the healing factor topped him back up. At least some of this was explicitly mentioned a few times in the past; when they first visit Genosha and get depowered, Wolverine starts slowly dying and only had days left, this was written by Claremont. Then some time later there was a story where the High Evolutionary (?) turned all mutants back to humans, so everyone teamed up to beat his ass, and Wolverine was shown dying with bruised skin due to metal poisoning. Not sure who wrote that.
Anyway some time later Apockylips bonded his bones with adamantium again, but this was a "fixed" non toxic batch that did not moron his bones natural functions. So now he had Deadpool level healing and unbreakable skeleton at the same time.
>Female friendship
>boomers
It was Gen X who was reading that ear of comics you dumb fatherless mutt.
You have autism
Not him, and I do, but no. "Boomer" actually means something, and calling everyone over 25 a boomer just makes me pretty sure you're not old enough to post here. Dude Gen X is two generations after boomers and we've got grandkids and shit.
I mean yeah, an Autistic person would think that, you guys are classically pendantic and don't do well with change. Boomer is used to mean and understood by everyone as "old person" in addition to referring to a specific age range. That's slang for you.
"Dude" didn't originally have the meaning you used either, but you're probably okay with that because you were introduced to that slang as a kid.
I am 35 years old, by the way.
I wish letters pages were properly archived for this reason.
>I wish letters pages were properly archived for this reason.
They are. They were reprinted in the omnibus versions even.
>why does my dick turn redheads into supervillains
Better keep him away from Mary Jane Watson... or don't, and let Spidey deal with the resulting (possibly sexy) mess that will follow.
>cures blondes
>damages redheads
I was never that into X-Men. But I cried remembering the guys I went to school with - who are now dead.
They'll never see the continuation.
They can't love it. They can't hate it.
Who is this show for?
Frick this is turning into a feels thread.
>My dad used to watch X-Men with me on Saturday mornings.
>My dad died in 2018
>I'm a grown man but what I would give to be about to watch '97 with my dad.
Miss you dad.
F for respects
My dad was actually an X-Men fan when he was a kid, he told me once how he hated a lot of the later Claremont stuff because how much of the soap opera stuff felt way to over the top.
Claremont was a terrible writer in general.
No, he needed a Wrangler. Shooter was that wrangler.
The more you read comics, the more it becomes clear no editor in chief, Shooter included, ever tard wrangled Marvel enough, and needed to be reading every script by every writer before it went to the artists to remove all the weird sexual or gay stuff along with anything that would end up permanently wrecking characters.
the weird sex stuff is half the appeal of superhero comics
Hot girls in sexy costumes is enough for most of us, or buff guys in tight costumes if you're a girl or gay. It's mostly just the writers who want to get their weird fetish stuff in there, and the cuckold stories, the gay stuff, etc. It's not hard to stop hiring perverts or micromanage them to keep this stuff out of the comics.
"when they include my fetish in comics it's cool but when they include fetishes I'm not into it's weird"
>attractive people in costumes that show off their bodies
>fetish
Enjoying something that's vanilla and normal enough that everyone except genuine asexuals can enjoy it isn't a fetish, anon.
Marvel Bullpen 1986
>Claremont: The daft frick is this?!
>Shooter: Look, Chris--
>Claremont: Frick You, Jim! I have plans ready and you want bring back Jean for "X-Factor"?! After you said she HAD to die!
>Bryne: Yeah, that's kinda screwed up, Jim.
>Shooter: Haven't you gone and frick up Superman yet, John?
It's all Byrne's fault in the first place though, he added that scene of Phoenix killing all those aliens, that made Shooter demand she had to die, which ruined Claremont's plans for the next several years of X-Men.
Bryne's was the Bendis of his day. Just better.
What were his plans?
The original plan was the Shi'Ar de-power Jean, leaving her a powerless human, and losing her telepathy would be like losing the use of one of your senses. Cyclops would quit the X-Men over them letting the Shi'Ar do this to Jean, they'd get married, while Storm would take over as the new leader. The book would periodically check in on Scott and Jean, a year or two down the line Magneto would offer to use one of his machines to restore Jean's powers if she'd join him and betray the X-Men.
In the long run it would have worked out better than the way things did happen.
Sounds interesting at least
And byrne is on the FBI list of groomers after all the shit he wrote for superman and DC
At least Claremont didn't go as far as to have her frick an alternate reality version of her own son.
No idea how some editor at marvel signed off on that one.
That's top tier wincestkino though.
Man, Carol's bullshit giving birth to her son-husband wasn't even atypical of the period, was it. Why were Marvel editors/writers like this?
Per Jim Shooter on the topic. He has absolutely no fricking clue how the frick the Carol thing happened but it was under his watch so he has formally taken responsibility and apologized for it. If only because he knows nobody else will.
>Per Jim Shooter on the topic. He has absolutely no fricking clue how the frick the Carol thing happened but it was under his watch so he has formally taken responsibility and apologized for it. If only because he knows nobody else will.
The answer is that nobody was that interested in Carol or what stories were happening to her, so as the editor it's pretty appropriate for him to "my bad' that one as even when the character is so boring you literally don't notice they exist it's still your fault at the end of the day.
No it's way whackier than that, he and a pile of other people worked on that book personally. He just has by his own admission no fricking memory of how the actual fricking christ that happened or who even came up with the idea. It's the kind of shit he veto'd all the time and he has no fricking clue how the actual christ it slipped past him or how it got to print and apparently none of the others have fess'd up to it either.
Best theory anyone has is they somehow all got drugged/drunk without Jim at least realizing it while on a deadline.
>No it's way whackier than that, he and a pile of other people worked on that book personally. He just has by his own admission no fricking memory of how the actual fricking christ that happened or who even came up with the idea. It's the kind of shit he veto'd all the time and he has no fricking clue how the actual christ it slipped past him or how it got to print and apparently none of the others have fess'd up to it either.
>
>Best theory anyone has is they somehow all got drugged/drunk without Jim at least realizing it while on a deadline.
Oh that's way worse then, I assume like a truck load of cocaine was involved in that case.
Clearly Marcus entered the Marvel Office IRL to make them write his story with Carol. Then, he used his powers to make them forget
I wonder if alternate-dimension incest would still trigger Patreon commandments
wait... what?! I haven't read all the X-man issues. When did that happen?!
This one I think is in #25 but it's just a kiss. They're implied to have actually fricked much later down the line.
>frick an alternate reality version of her own son.
Holy BASED
Dude, mother son incest is the future. The reason I tolerate the Krakoa sex island cult is the idea of teen Cable fricking Jean's pussy Or jerking off to her moans as her she's double penetrated by Scott and Uncle Logan.
Is Inferno even later Claremont stuff? It's like the middle of the run, isn't it?
Nta but I thought the storyline happened in like 89. With his run ending in 91 that's basically about the last quarter of his run.
I'd consider everything from the x men setting up base in the Austrian outback to him leaving the franchise the first time, as late in his run.
Inferno is UXM 240-243 and X-Factor 36-39.
It's towards the end of Claremont's run and a big dividing point, as being forced to destroy Maddie in the name of allowing Scott to get away with being a shitstain so he could frick Jean at long last and justify her resurrection by getting her man back, buck broke Chris.
Two issues after Inferno ended, Chris started dismantling the X-Men and was going to keep them apart until around #300 at the earliest and started conspiring to have Jean dump Scott's ass/rejoin Forge's makeshift X-Men and finally hook up with Wolverine in the infamous "Evil Wolverine/Queen of the Night" storyline that Bob Harras vetoed.
Geez, Chris.
Younger (and by this I mean anyone not a truly oldgay) fans need to realize back in the day comics were both more and less serialized - less in the sense of stories mostly being one or two parters, but more in that consequences, if they extended beyond that story, tended to be more permanent. Dead still meant dead back then (except for a few A-list supervillains like Doom and Magneto who would just come back with minimal explanation). Reed and Sue got married and had a kid and that stuck. Peter graduated high school and went to college. The O5 X-Men graduated, etc. Claremont was writing a more soap operatic approach than most stories but he was a firm believer in permanent consequences. He didn't want to originally kill Jean but Shooter pressured him into it. But then when Jean died, he rolled with it and decided this was the end of that story. Scott found someone new (who was not Jean, despite a few fakeouts) and was meant to permanently retire as a happy-ish ending. He'd show up from time to time if the story needed it but he would be a civilian with a life and family.
And then Shooter and co went, hey, the O5 aren't doing anything, let's have a title with them. You can google the genesis of X-Factor, there were multiple pitches, including having Dazzler as the Jean stand-in, and Claremont himself IIRC pitched having Sara Grey, Jean's sister, as a kind of living Cerebro as the fifth member. Shooter insisted Jean was coming back. Claremont didn't even get to write any of the relevant issues because of this feud - Byrne wrote the FANTASTIC FOUR finding Jean for no goddamn reason in the FF, and then Bob Layton wrote the first few issues of X-Factor where the team gathers.
That's why we ended up with this dumb storyline - X-Factor actually made Scott seemed sensible and character assassinated Maddie - Scott didn't abandon them, he literally told Maddie in #1 he found out Jean might be alive and is going to check if it's true and come back.
(cont.)
They were written by Layton in that brief appearance as having zero chemistry and a pretty shitty marriage even before that, and the Maddie went "If you walk out that door don't come back". Scott walked out the door thinking that's an empty, emotional threat, and then by issue 2 when he tried to call home like, the same day or tomorrow, Maddie took the kid and fled, with no forwarding address. Anyone reading X-Factor would not see Scott as abandoning his family, but Maddie as a semi-insane paranoid shrew who kidnapped her infant son.
The problem is Claremont absolutely did not agree with this butchering of Maddie, and wrote her as having gone to the X-Men (laying low in Down Under at the time, so Cyclops couldn't contact her) and wrote her sympathetically in Uncanny, which more people read and cared about than Layton's aborted run. So Scott gets Mandela Effected into being a shitty dad while Maddie gets exonerated because most fans took Claremont's side in the conflict, even though the story is pretty clearly biased towards Scott here.
Until the end of the run Claremont argued with editorial, especially after Shooter left (Jean stuff aside Shooter largely left Chris alone). Editorial wanted Classic X-Men memberberries while Chris was doing a Cerebus the Aardvark-esque long form story.
But he truly never got over being overruled on Jean TWICE, and he became a Jean/Logan shipper partly out of spite if you ask me. Editorial siding with Jim Lee instead of Chris over Mutant Wars, Magneto going evil and the Wolverine-Hand story is why Claremont ended up leaving the title practically halfway through his last issue, he was just fed up with not being allowed to tell the story he wanted to tell. He had written Uncanny for so long that he got to see the industry shift from the freewheeling creativity of the mid 70s to the merchandise, toyetic, adaptation-oriented early 90s.
Point of order but while Shooter allowed it he wasn't enthusiastic about the idea.
He was however on his way out and was willing to allow that it was supposed to be a celebratory reunion, so her coming back somehow wasn't the worst idea ever in terms of "it's a special occasion, fair enough, not gonna be my problem soon anyway", so it was basically him letting the kids have ice cream one last time because it's a special occasion and they were never going to see dad again anyway.
>He didn't want to originally kill Jean but Shooter pressured him into it
This is also really interesting to look back on because it was a result of her killing an entire galaxy instead of just go slightly coo coo for a bit. Editorial realized that they couldn't just have her wash her hands of her actions and needed to pay the ultimate price. So yeah, characters, especially mutants being held accountable for their actions. Let that sink in.
>And then Shooter and co went, hey, the O5 aren't doing anything, let's have a title with them. You can google the genesis of X-Factor, there were multiple pitches, including having Dazzler as the Jean stand-in, and Claremont himself IIRC pitched having Sara Grey, Jean's sister, as a kind of living Cerebro as the fifth member. Shooter insisted Jean was coming back.
The story with this is that Bob Layton and possibly other people as well had been pitching for years to do an X-Men spinoff using characters Claremont wasn't using, and Claremont had enough pull to keep blocking it. But then he retired Cyclops, and suddenly all of the O5 weren't doing anything, the idea of reuniting them had enough potential to make money that Marvel didn't care if Claremont wouldn't want it, and they HAD to bring Jean back to do it right, it's not a 'real' reunion if you have some substitute there.
Claremont probably ended up regretting not just letting Layton have a book years earlier with characters he wasn't using like Angel, Iceman, Havok, and Polaris.
what did your dad think of the post claremont era
Sorry for the late response, I'm assuming he didn't enjoy it much because I think he fell out X-Men comics roughly around Fatal Attraction. But I know he got back into it briefly during New X-Men.
My dad was an X-Men fan growing-up as well. He even got me an X-Men omnibus for my birthday last year. Every time I get new figures for my collection, I always send pictures of them to him and he enjoys them.
Awesome
Good dad and you're a good son, anon
My experience with Claremont's run was reading those thick fricking black and white paperback collections. I loved it, but I felt like it started to fall off around the time Longshot was introduced. I remember specifically thinking that the main team should have just stayed dead after their confrontation with the Adversary and that it was a good enough ending to the run.
the timeline was
-Meets and marries Maddie
-Finds out Jean is alive
-Maddie goes crazy
She deserved better. Haven't read Dark X-Men yet but hope she's doing ok with the Queen of Limbo status quo
As it stands there's no point to her and she's dragging Havok down to uselessness as well.
She and Jean finally made peace with each other, and Jean finally made peace with herself.
And both still has a crush with Peter Parker as Emma
>Spoiler
It wasn't like this all happened over a short arc, you know? Maddy debuted in 83, the Goblin Queen stuff didn't come to a head till like, 99.
The better question is how did Gen-Xers react to X-man getting it on with his mom's clone?
Notable sex pervert Kirk Boxleitner jerk offd his dick raw. While red head fetishist and robosexual supporter Jesse Baker complained about having to read the adventures of Nate Grey to get his Maddie Pryor fix.
Any more on this? It made me laugh.
Kirk is basically Ben Kissell from Last Podcast on the Left, but instead of drinking he's a coomer and an evil bigger incel than Ben was. And Baker is Spoony but lazier, which is a shame because he'd be right at home with the Comicsgate grifters but he'd rather spent his time jerking off and writing Shield fanfiction.
>Kirk is basically Ben Kissell from Last Podcast on the Left, but instead of drinking he's a coomer and an evil bigger incel than Ben was.
Huh, never thought I see an LPOTL reference on Cinemaphile.
Ed is a great co-host, better than Ben was the last few years, but goddamn do I not miss the giant drunk hobo-looking man.
I try not to think about it
Let's put it this way. There's a fricking reason why Maddie Pryor has a huge fan following and why everyone despised Scott Summers long before he cheated on Jean with Emma and became mutant Richard Spencer
Maddie is one of those characters where rather than the strength of character writing or the stories she's in, her appeal is in how fascinatingly bizarre it was for her to used as a complete punching bag by plotlines; culminating in a story that exists only to say that her husband abandoning her and their child to hook up with his ex-gf was a heroic and noble thing to do, and also she's not a real person anyway.
Yeah, I mean we've seen pretty much every character go through a phase were they're the company whopping kid but good lord Maddie got savaged.
Plus the convolution. The big clone reveal retconned the lead-in to Inferno and removed the connection between Maddie and the storyline, and then when the Clone Saga hit and the explanation about clones and souls came out it required a second retcon to explain the plothole created by the first retcon despite the plot point already being invalidated by said retcon.
That's not quite true.
Conway in 1988 retconned the Clone Saga to say Jackyl never cloned anyone just changed their faces/voices via DNA virus was him fricking up a resolved storyline because A. fans kept asking if the Gwen Stacy clone was ever going to come back and B. him basing the clone saga on some scientific shit he read in a magazine that later got debunked in the early 80s that made him want to trash the entire storyline.
This happened early in the Outback era during the `988 Evolutionary War crossover. Claremont and Conway never collaborated or even knew what the other was writing.
At the time, a popular fan theory was that Jean and Maddie were the same person and that Claremont was going to use Limbo to circumvent the Gruenwald time travel laws he had set up at Marvel to make it so. Making her a clone only happened when Bob Harras gave the kill order that Maddie had to be turned evil and killed off in Inferno because Harras was a Jean/Scott shipper and was sick of the fact that Maddie's entire existence was keeping the pair from getting together.
It's been long rumored that Maddie being a clone was done purely to prevent Harras from demanding Maddie be the Phoenix Force/Dark Phoenix as a separate entity. Also her being clone allowed Claremont to bring back the dead Marauders for their final showdown with the X-Men (they were also cloned). However, Claremont did throw in a plot point that Maddie as a clone was not a proper clone persay. She was "inert" (mindless) and Sinister was about to shut down her life support pod when the Phoenix Force inserted a part of itself inside of her, bringing Maddie to life as container for a part of Jean that was copied to impersonate her.
Also, Sinister cloning was always treated as legit and not like Jackyl's cloning due to Claremont boasting he was "better at it".
I just can't help but feel like there were probably easier ways to go about it. And really it's less all that and just the way they went out of the way to completely dogpile on maddie.
honestly making her the phoenix force that had made itself fully mortal (and powerless) so that it could finally be with Scott because "true love" would have been sappy and cliché, but a far less convoluted retcon than the clone shit.
But that would have made Scott still look like an ass for leaving her for Jean, so we had to get "she was just a cloned broodmare that only thought she was real person" so it's okay the Scott left her, she's not an actual human being anyway.
If anything it would have made Scott leaving her for Jean more believable. The Phoenix uses what's left of its psychic powers to subtly manipulate Scott into being with her, staying with her, losing the fight for leadership of the X-Men, all the stuff they said clone Maddy did. But when Jean comes back out of the lake she starts sapping Phoenix of what's left of her powers and her Phoenix's control of Scott starts to waver. Scott leaving is Scott instinctualy breaking free instead of Sinister having Maddy send Scott away so he could get at baby Chris.
It streamlines it, gets rid of the Sinister subplot, and still ends with Scott as a redeemable victim instead of a shitheel who abandoned his wife.
>I just can't help but feel like there were probably easier ways to go about it.
Like just not turning Jean into a murderer that the editor in chief demanded had to die, and then not creating a replacement character for her in the first place?
That's your easier way to go about it. But too many people got into reading X-Men because "they killed one of the core cast members. For real" to see that in the long run it was a mistake that caused problems like this.
Well yes that makes sense in hindsight but this was again well before comics and mortality was such a joke.
It's really hard to believe so many "fans" are nostalgic for this era of bullshit.
She wasn't a clone. Not at the time anyways. Honestly always felt Maddy kind of got done dirty.
Boomers cheered Jean returning and didn't want Maddie around
Gen X/early stage Gen Y types were 100% Team Maddie.
Oldgay here
I thought it was kind of dumb at the time, especially with the whole "ooooh is it really Jean", it felt very Days of Our Lives, then it got even dumber from there. Jean's whole thing had become a fall from grace, giving her an evil clone possessed by a demon just seemed lame
Was it ever explained in canon how she was a clone that looked exactly like Jean and yet no one on any of the x-teams nor villains ever mentioned it?
It did get mentioned a few times, but it was treated more as if she looked very similar, not full on identical. So it was more of a "gee Scott, going out with a girl that looks that much like your dead ex is kind of creepy, but I guess you just have a clear type" rather then "Holy shit?! Why is she an identical copy of jean?!"
To be fair given the circumstances it is possible that her very different experiences from jean affected her face just enough to make her look slightly different, like how even identical twins start to look different due to aging, eating habits, jobs etc.
Yeah, I don't think we were supposed to accept her being a, forgive the pun, dead ringer till the whole clone business.
Her hair was always consistently fluffier and redder than Jean's, and even nowadays she's drawn, to be blunt, "Thiccer" as the kids say, and her hard is usually a darker, more cherry red to Jean's orange shade even if it's lost the volume it used to have.
The former is pretty easily explained as "she had a kid and got milf body" but the later has remained the sole remnant of when she was decidedly a different person.
Lilandra freaked out hard enough at Wolverine’s wedding in #173 that she pulled out a lightsaber ready to slice her up.
>Wolverine’s wedding in #173
did Wolverine call Lilandra a baka gaijin afterwards?
Weebverine really is just fricking peak.
Maddie looking like Jean was mentioned a lot but in general it was handwaved as coincidence. And when Maddie was made into a clone, Claremont handwaved why no know knew she was a clone by saying Sinister was a better clone maker than Jackyl so that Wolverine and Xavier both got fooled.
Ironically this would have been something that should have gotten mention in the Krakoa era as far as exploring the "Xavier/Magneto/Moira were in league with Sinister from the beginning" retcon by saying that Xavier had Sinister create Maddie to replace Jean plotline.
Confusing shit.
Mutant Wars was pitched after the Evil Wolverine pitch got rejected and BEFORE Jim Lee got made full time artist on X-Men.
Mutant Wars got rejected by Harras along with the original pitch for Days of Future Present, which was the direct lead-in for Mutant Wars. Future Present was supposed to end with Mastermind usurping control over Freedom Force from Mystique and blowing up a major city in the US and turning the world against mutants, which Harras rejected. Mutant Wars would have been the fall-out, as the X-Men finally reuniting to deal with the fall-out, Excalibur finding out the X-Men were alive and rescuing Polaris from Legion and liberating Muir Island from his control, and Mystique, Magneto, and Mr Sinister (returning to the book as Gambit, who would be Sinister in disguise) all joining the X-Men due to Shadow King consolidating control over all of the major evil mutants via the Hellfire Club (which Sebastian Shaw would regain control over and would be retconned into being always controlled by the Shadow King).
Some fans loved it but Magneto apologists threw a screaming fit so loud, Marvel caved and let Claremont declare that it was an imposture that was running around as Xorn and never fricking found a way to make the retcon and the reveal that there was a good Xorn and a bad Xorn make a lick of sense.
Shadow King was basically going to be Claremont's anti-Phoenix and the "author of all the X-Men's pain".
>Shadow King consolidating control over all of the major evil mutants via the Hellfire Club
Not just that, he would have been revealed to be the real leader of the Hellfire Club with Farouk and the Adversary being just aspects of the real Shadow King.
Ruined by Kevin Feige
Like MCU
Like Marvel comics
Like Marvel games
If you thought a children's cartoon was ever going to show left you're a moron.
it's definitely aimed at an older audience due to the obvious nostalgia pandering. but it's also clearly meant to be enjoyable for the whole family. also Disney is just scared of boobs.
I mean, you could probably paint that fig to fix it.
At least they gave her two breasts and not the mono tit
If you think that's bad, you ought to see the female action figures that came out during the 90s. They were atrocious. Right is a monumental improvement. You legit have no idea.
>If you think that's bad, you ought to see the female action figures that came out during the 90s.
Here's the thing about that then. figures back then were made WAY cheaper because they were sold to kids to bang against each other. This is gonna be sold to older fricks for like three times as much.
>way cheaper
good action figures cost at least $12 back then and they barely looked like the characters they were based on but looked close enough to get kids excited abt using them. Female action figures didn't only look bad back then, they were rare. I could never find Storm, Rogue, Jean or any females ever bc they either didn't make them or when they did, they made very few. These are still being marketed to children, so when you see an action figure with defined breasts, hips, female characteristics in general, understand that's an improvement. I can't imagine that there won't be more adult statues sold down the road but that figure on the right is a good middle ground.
To be honest, Cyclops marrying an exact copy of his dead girlfriend was always gonna end up in disaster
Should've put him with Colleen Wing or some other old girlfriend
One thing I never understood, even while reading all of the Madelynn saga from the 80s, is that if she’s a clone of Jean, shouldn’t she look exactly like her?
Yes the whole red hair and people say she reminds them of Jean, but wouldn’t she look exactly like Jean raise some eye brows?
She's a psychic just assume she was fricking with their minds.
see
Also, people do just look alike sometimes. Tons of celebrity doppelgangers. Maddie styled her hair differently, comported herself differently, and was also, as far as the team and Scott knew, a full person with an independent life and history. They absolutely did ask hey is this Jean, Uncanny 175 I think had a whole story about that, but then the answer was "no, she isn't Jean, she's her own person who just looks a lot like her" and everyone let it be. Until Jean proper came back and then all this shit happened.
To be fair, Claremont put way too much effort into making it look like there was something more going on with Maddie. She was the sole survivor of a plane crash that happened at the exact moment Phoenix died, there were no records of her past before that day, she just happens to know one of Cyclops' favorite meals. You can't set all that up and then say it's all just coincidence, she's just a lookalike, being an evil clone made more sense.
I believe Claremont when he says the final say on it was supposed to be when Cyclops asks her and she slaps him but also I don’t buy his plan was that she just looked just like Jean coincidently
Is Madelyne still getting fricked over?
Not anymore
>Finally made peace with Jean and Scott
>Finally made peace with the Phoenix Force
>Found her Fujo toy with Alex Summers
>Still has and shares the same crush Jean has with Peter Parker
>Still a Yandere b***h
>She and Jean cant unfrick Ben because It is obviously Mephisto's meddling against him for saving the angel girl in vegas
You could've answered this question for yourself by reading the letters pages.
90s anon here. Wasn't there for when it first happened. First comic was X-men 1 (1991), but I would start collecting back issues. Specifically the to late Claremont stuff, and all I can say is that I was miffed. Maddie and Scott weren't together for too long, but they were wholesome and you could at least feel some sense of closure for good ol Cyke. Marrying a pilot also brought his story full circle since his rough life started with a plane accident.
They were already having a strained relationship because Scott just could not let go of his former x-men life. Scott gets the call that Jean is still alive, Maddie has had enough of his absentee husband/father shit and tells him not to go, he does anyway. Scott is, in no uncertain terms, a complete butthole here. Running off to chase his high school crush when he had moved on, got married and had a newborn baby?
The readers at the time responded so poorly to it that Marvel hadda start retconning his behavior immediately, it wasnt his fault you see, Mr Sinister was mucking with him and Maddie was just a clone. Nevermind that Scott didn't know that and doesnt excuse the behavior.
Lets face it, pretty much everything the original X-Factor run touched turned to shit. The very premise of the original X-5 running a *mutant hunting company* was insane.
pretty nice butt in those top two panels on maddy
I think the Simonson X Factor run has alot of good stuff, though the initial premise and damage control for Scott is a mess.
Simonson has the dubious honor of having the very last legitimately impressive villain in comics with the original Apocalypse stories if I remember right because we hadn't realized that stakes had left with Jim Shooter just yet. Beyond that though X-Factor was a mistake.
Despite all of the editorial frickery, Mutant Genesis was an amazing storyline. Far and away the best late Claremont Era storyline of any X-book.
Man. It's amazing how much X-men fandom has been through. I got in even after 1991. Mainly from the cartoon. Though a high school friend was raised on old X-men books and got me a bunch of the backstories and all the weird little twists. Amazing to see older fans and fans who followed the older books complain about what went to shit back then. We are so so so far removed from those stories now, but they keep going in circles with the same characters with all new modern bullshit. We even had Bendis bringing back younger versions of the team with time travel and Jean turning Bobby gay for some reason.
>and Jean turning Bobby gay for some reason.
Bendis felt like Bobby was cucking him by getting too close to his waifu while not being either Black or one of his preapproved self-inserts. He wanted to make sure it couldn't fricking happen and knew that the office's Jean Grey fetishism wouldn't let her be wrong and that modern politics would make it so they would never be allowed to change him back if he made him gay, so he weaponized that.
While the thought, that this post, while being a wild guess joke, might incidentially be actual truth, terrifies me a bit, entire situation in media, that allows for such things, is now so weird and twisted, that it actually becomes funny on meta level - you just had to dissacociate all media corporations into lower lever of reality (a.k.a. illusion of the tier 1), so events in comics become illusion tier 2 (with its own subtiers inside). Than you'll receive a weird mix of drama and comedy about almighty god-creators, who are just clerks on their own tier of existance, but who affect and create tier 2 illusionary world, actions in which affect them back. "As above, so below and as below, so above". While we can watch it from the outside as a global metaentertainment. I think i start to understand all of this "life is a joke" things - you just had to be able to separate yourself mentally from as big part of a madhouse as you would be able to, ideally from everything.
It's not a wild guess joke that's literally the fricking reason. I have no idea what schizohomosexualry you're on about. That is the actual, factual fricking reason that happened, full stop.
>While the thought, that this post, while being a wild guess joke, might incidentially be actual truth, terrifies me a bit
Yeah normally I ignore these kinds of theories but this is the one time where I think it might genuinely be true. Bobby hooks up with Kitty and almost immediately Bendis breaks them up and goes ACTUALLY BOBBY'S FULL GAY. We know Kitty is his waifu, in USM he wrote his stand ins (Kong and Peter himself) as dating her, it all fits, uncomfortable as it is.
The only proper response to this is to make Luke Cage gay. It might make his marriage awkward but representation matters. Bendis would understand and approve.
it all makes sense now
I truly don't see how you can read that page and be on Maddie's side. She didn't even ask any questions about why Scott needs to go, or for how long, just an immediate "no because I said so." If the genders were reversed we'd be talking about how Maledelyne was controlling and emotionally manipulative. Scott calls her to explain the situation the very next issue and the phone is already disconnected. This is not stable and normal behavior, even if Cyclops was distant and emotionally stuck in the past.
>I truly don't see how you can read that page and be on Maddie's side
By not being a low-T homosexual. Scott immediately starts acting shifty and then abandons with barely a moment of hesitation his wife and child like some ball-less homosexual under flimsy, false pretenses because he's having a midlife crisis. It's the definition of a shitheel beta move.
Him calling back is too little too late because when that happens it's been fricking days since he abandoned them in universe just from the fricking travel time without any explanation to go live it up with his high school friends and the girl he abandoned them for.
>By not being a low-T homosexual. Scott immediately starts acting shifty and then abandons with barely a moment of hesitation his wife and child like some ball-less homosexual under flimsy, false pretenses because he's having a midlife crisis. It's the definition of a shitheel beta move.
I was going to write a serious reply reiterating how Madelyne immediately escalated for no reason and offered no way out of the situation, and that the response to your husband going "there's an emergency and i need to leave for NYC to meet up with an old friend" is not "immediately move away, kidnap your child and offer no forwarding address" (as you stated, it's been DAYS at most, not weeks), but this buzzword word salad is making me question whether it's worth continuing any discussion with you
>T. knows he doesn't actually have an argument.
>Muh Buzzwords! Hur Hur that'll show'em.
Enjoy watching your wife's boyfriend frick her.
I knew I was right on the money with you. You haven't addressed that Maddie was written as OTT in those issues and Claremont had to do damage control in Uncanny, sorry your waifu is a shit and all you have are personal insults because no one thinks otherwise.
Madelyne "escalated" because Scott had been being a neglectful dick for an indeterminant but clearly considerable period of time before ditching his wife and kid in the middle of the fricking Alaskan wasteland with a log cabin McMansion to pay for with no explanation other than "Uh sorry my ex-girlf-I mean my college buddies need help doing her pus-a thing. Gonna go pick up some smokes and milk and be back after." with no fricking hesitation on the decision, just on telling her, and only thought to call home more than a fricking week later.
That's an entirely fricking valid escalation at that point when you've got a mouth to feed other than your own.
Sorry though, Cyclops isn't going to frick you. He doesn't even frick Emma these days because he's too busy waiting for Wolverine's sloppy seconds.
If you think that justifies child kidnapping I hope you don't have any, for their sake.
She didn't kidnap shit, you moron, Cyclops literally fricking abandoned them.
>going on a week-long trip to NYC that you tell your wife about is abandoning your family
Shit I did that last year then
>Treat your wife and kid like shit
>Lie to her about why you're above to leave.
>Like not even doing a good job of it even.
>Declare you're leaving.
>Get told this is the last straw, the final line to cross.
>Leave without giving a single frick.
Dad back with the milk any day now huh?
>Treat your wife and kid like shit
Proof beyond your erotic fanfiction?
>like not even doing a good job of it even
Funny how she never accused him of lying, or pushed back on the explanation, or showed any suspicion. Almost like you're inferring character interactions that aren't there because it fits your non-argument.
>leave without giving a single frick
Yes, if my wife, who has had no reason to doubt my integrity before (the worst I did was KEEP BEING A SUPERHERO SOMETIMES), gave me an ultimatum of that severity without any buildup or offering an alternative, I would say she is in the wrong there.
My dad's doing great, your clearly isn't since you're projecting this hard about a half-forgotten shit tier waifu's origin story.
>Proof
That you didn't even read the fricking issue being talked about? You just gave it to me.
>didn't accuse him
Did she have fricking time before he pushed things to "Nope I'm fricking going?" Hell no, she's too busy trying to stop him from literally just ditching her and their kid.
>Superhero
He was retired, and again the issue makes it clear he's been being distance and neglectful for awhile now, and the whole reason he got the boot from the X-Men was because he seethed about not being leader rather than actually taking care of his family. If it was just a
"Look I'm having a hard time now, the guys wanna get together for a bit and handle something, I'll be back in a better headspace" thing nobody would give a shit, instead his first fricking reflex is to lie to her and to go without even giving a single frick.
Continue throating Cyke's dick but you're not gonna get anything.
I think it is impossible for you to comprehend that other people exist. Somone can read that same issue and get something very different from it. For example, to me it would take genuine mental moronation to read "honey i need to go for a bit" "if you leave now don't bother coming back" and think person 2 is responding in a manner that can be described as "trying to stop him from literally just ditching her and their kid." Somehow, your first response not being further questions or deescalation but jumping straight to the end and telling the other person not to come back if you don't get your way - not that. Not that in the slightest.
I read that issue, I own most of the OG X-Factor run and I do not agree with your assessment. "Did she have fricking time?" Yes, she did, read that very page! She could have said hey wait a second, what's happening, or done literally anything other than she did. Maddie reacted emotionally, irrationally and out of spite - not to protect her family. She was not being a good mother, she was being a jilted wife. Which is fine and reasonable characterization, even sympathetic, but you cannot go "Madelyne Pryor mother of the year" when she all but pushed Scott out the door in that very issue instead of trying to talk about this problem, which it is clear they never tried. At some point, if two parties are having a consistent failure of communication, it's on both of them.
Unlike you I'm not throating anyone's dick, I'm capable of seeing a shitty story as reflecting a complicated and nuanced situation instead of going "dommy demon mommy good, 100% in the right and flawless"
still don't see abandonment. at worst he was a mid husband whose wife couldn't communicate well enough to tell him she's thinking of leaving until she blows up at him at the worst possible time for him.
You don't understand because you don't have the full context of the situation. Him leaving to maybe see if his ex-girlfriend was alive was the straw that broke the camel's back. At the point of this issue Cyclops had a well established pattern of leaving her to have adventures with the X-Men despite being officially retired.
>be Maddie Pryor
>start dating a guy
>turns out you're a dead ringer for his ex
>he convinces you that you're not some substitute for his dead ex and marries you
>starts constantly making excuses to not be around you
>claims he is needed on his superhero team despite there being upwards of two dozen members
>member of his superhero team literally has to beat him up and kick him off the team so he'll be a husband and father
>after a couple of days he gets a phone call and announces he's going to be leaving without bothering to explain
>you tell him no
>he leaves anyway and you have no way to contact him
>you get attacked by supervillains and your son stolen
>a few days later he returns to tell you his ex pulled a Jesus and he'll be living with her and a couple of buddies from high school for the foreseeable future
>discovering you and your son gone and your home destroyed he immediately resolves to find you eventually
>you're staying with his brother and half of his friend group
>after a couple months you discover he's been shacking up with his ex this whole time
>You are the bad guy here.
If there is one good thing about the Sinister meatpuppet retcon, it's that it explains why Maddie didn't dump Scott's ass long before any of the shit went down.
No, she isn't the bad guy for the entire story, either pre Sinister retcon or after, Scott clearly gave up at one point. But you're being very disingenuous and one-sided, from "upwards of two dozen members" (the X-Men were fairly shorthanded at the time, actually, and hadn't had two dozen members cumulatively, let alone at the same time), to "you tell him no" (instead, she offered an immediate ultimatum without any justification or caring about details, it wasn't a soft no), etc.
I agree that everything after Scott left for NYC was shitty on his part, I'm not denying any of that. But Madelyne was not in the right about the situation here. If anything, she knows that Scott is a former teen soldier with serious trauma in his past and likely PTSD (early Claremont wrote Scott very haunted by the losses, even Thunderbird who he knew for three minutes) who watched his love die in front of him. That's something that takes years of therapy to work through, it was unrealistic to expect him to just jump into normal life with her and never look back. And it wasn't like he was in every X-Men adventure at the time, he showed up from time to time to help out. What's wrong with that? Why is this a dealbreaker to her, that a retired superhero might help his former team sometimes? If it was, she should not have married him ffs. And then it's certainly hypocritical that she then turns to the X-Men for assistance afterwards.
If she had enough of Scott being a part-time X-Man she should have told him. If this was the straw that breaks the camel's back, threaten divorce after he returns, and like, stay to talk about it. She was not being a good partner at the time, and yet she gets zero flack in comparison to Scott, whose shitty husband crimes are well-documented.
NTA but it's not that him going to see his team was a deal breaker, it was that he was clearly lying about something to her on reflex about the reason after a period of just not even really trying. Scott literally married a telepath and couldn't work up the will to have somebody check his head. And sure, child soldier, a lot in his life was suddenly different. That's why she was giving him slack prior to that hoping the invincible boyscout Scott usually tried to present himself as would come back.
He was kicked off the X-Men with the explicit admonishment to actually be with his wife and child. Everyone else thought Scott was being shitty too. And reaurrections were rare in that period, begging the question of why he didn't lead with telling Maddie that someone came back from the dead. Maddie doesn't get any flak because her response was reasonable given Scott's history and behavior.
Sad thing is I wouldn't put it past X-writers to retcon out the Marauders kidnapping Nathan saying Maddie did it.
>Maddie doesn't get any flak because her response was reasonable given Scott's history and behavior.
Shockingly, many people disagree, hence why she was written as an unrepentant villain for the next thirty years.
She was retconned into being ontologically evil and then dead because someone had a hardon for the O5 and no one stopped to say "maybe we shouldn't have our lead act like a shitheel." Everything else is just favortism.
In normal relationships you don't announce you're travelling cross-country immediately without already giving a relationship. Maddie would not be a bad person for not trying to pry yhat information from Scott because Scott should have given it immediately. And the context is Scott's repeated history of bailing on her to the point the rest of the X-Men had issues with it. The information he was hiding from her was an actual miracle from his perspective, he could have handed her the phone, he could have taken her and Nathan with him, but didn't. We all know the meta reasons, but in universe Scott was a consistent flake fixing to pull some flake shit.
No one's simping for Maddie, we're just saying she didn't do anything wrong while Scott did. We know this because the writers made it a point to introduce retcons to absolve Scott of his actions ehich would otherwise be unnecessary. Personal opinion, the whole storyline suffers from the clone reveal because Scott bearing some blame would be a fantastic springboard for character work and Maddie a victim of circumstance lashing out out would have given her and Inferno some gravitas to what was a forgettable event and Evil Titty Jean(redhead).
>begging the question of why he didn't lead with telling Maddie that someone came back from the dead.
for the same reason why Madelyne didn't try to reason with Scott, instead immediately jumping to the last resort - they were both being written by a shit writer who for that very reason got kicked off the title by issue 5 and basically never did X-Men again. It was mishandled soap opera drama on both ends, but you're choosing to read the story in a way that purely justifies Madelyne, instead of saying what everyone thought - Layton was a shit writer who mishandled the whole situation. Madelyne did not respond well, Scott did not respond well, the X-Men and X-Factor both acted stupid during this period because they wanted no teamups...
>That's something that takes years of therapy to work through
It really doesn't.
... Consistent and extreme trauma during your formatting years is a piece of cake? Scott was an orphan who watched his parents and brother die, then spent years bullied in an orphanage, then was recruited as a teenager to fight a race war, then found his brother and father are alive after all, then had the love of his life murdered, then found her identical duplicate, then...
Any two of these would be enough for years of therapy, anon.
It really doesn't. PTSD only effects 4% of the populace, Humans are resilient to trauma, Scott is just a shitty person or mentally ill and b***hmade to have PTSD.
You're a troll, got it
i think it was obvious a while ago, anon, abandon thread
Normally I'd say you're full of shit but if the Scottcucks hate it it's probably true.
It's basically the only explanation other than her maybe thinking he was just having a rough time with the big changes in his life.
But nah didn't you hear she "kidnapped" their kid. You know the one he abandoned with her. Clearly this makes her the devil.
you keep saying abandon like it's true, repeating it won't make it any more true, the page was posted above, dude literally said i gotta go to new york and see warren, she was the one who said then don't come back. donde abandonment, amigo?
It's been a long while since I read X-Factor, but didn't Scott get to NYC, find out Maddy went off the grid, and immediately fly back to Alaska to track her down? Someone else owned her business, their house was destroyed, there was no record of a Madelyne Pryor or a Nathan/Christopher Summers at any of the hospitals, everyone he knew in Alaska was mysteriously gone. Didn't he investigate all this while seeing visions of the Phoenix everywhere? You're talking like he immediately forgot about her, wasn't her disappearance a subplot for the first year or two of the title?
It took five years to conclude the plotline and Maddie was appearing in X-Men the whole time.
There is no indication in canon that Scoty has PTSD. It's a headcanon to explain away all the times an uptight, literal-minded, and task oriented person acts like a jackass instead of giving Scott personality flaws.
Right. Weren't Simonson and Claremont doing increasingly convoluted plotlines to explain why Scott didn't know where Maddy was and vice versa? Weren't both of them looking for the baby? It seemed clear they weren't on the same page from a creative standpoint.
Scott was on X-Factor pretending to be hunting down mutants, Maddie was supporting cast in X-Men, and at no point did anyone think that the guy who looks like Cyclops, dresses like Cyclops, and has powers like Cyclops might actually be Scott nor did Scott ever consider calling up any of his friends - or his brother - and asking if they could help him find his missing wife. Basically a half decade of people not acting logically to drag out a plotline.
The problem with Morrison is that Mags had been operating as a villain for a decade at that point on a level that X-fans were perfectly okay with. It's a giant exercise in "no, it's the fans who are wrong" that permeates his run.
>nor did Scott ever consider calling up any of his friends - or his brother - and asking if they could help him find his missing wife
Wasn't that after the X-Men and Maddie "died" and got isekai'd to Australia?
Fall of the Mutants was 1988.
>The problem with Morrison is that Mags had been operating as a villain for a decade at that point on a level that X-fans were perfectly okay with.
The average fan was perfectly fine with the way things had been with Magneto, but back then and even today it's not hard to find Magnetogays seething about the very idea of their husbando being a villain again after Claremont. Even Cinemaphile has some of them that keep reeeing about Jim Lee "ruining X-Men" by making Magneto a villain again.
Morrison was writing a reaction against Claremont's Magneto that was more than ten years too late, he hadn't been that character in a long time, his last story before Morrison had him trying to start World War 3. The problem is that the 90s Magneto stories had largely avoided drawing too much attention to how many people would have been killed by his actions, Morrison's story made it impossible to ignore the deaths. I understand why they retconned it away, but caving in to the people who think Magneto is a hero was just moronic and going too far, but it's lasted almost 20 years now, it'll probably never be fixed.
Claremont decisively came down on the side of "Actually frick Magneto he's irredeemable" after exploring the idea for awhile.
I hate Magneato being a villain again but laregly because the flipflopping of villains to heroes only for it to be status quo'd because either
A) there's a movie coming out or
B) some editor who wants everything the way they were when they were 12 gets power
is the #1 thing I hate most about comics. If you're gonna let someone do a face turn let it fricking stick sometimes goddamnit
If you want villains to change sides you need to choose a winnable battle. It needs to be a villain who was early enough into their career or minor enough that they didn't really do anything to bad, and it needs to be someone who isn't well-established as one of the main villains of a book. Trying to turn someone like Magneto into a hero was a moronic idea in the first place, like trying to redeem the Red Skull, Thanos or Carnage. Sometimes the editors need to tard wrangle the writers and give them a firm "No."
I feel like Magneto always had potential to be a hero though, his he wasn't operating out of self interest and had respect for Xavier
The problem is less Magneto being more heroic and more him being slotted onto the main team roster. You can easily do a book where he and the X-men have to team up. Fantastic Four teams up with Dr Doom all the goddamn time. Some bigger threat like Apocalypse or Galactus or whomever shows up and it needs every hand on deck and it's cool. Then Magneto goes away for a while and everyone is left wondering how different things could have been. But instead you have the X-men partying up with their main villains and it's all water under the bridge like they forgot to return a borrowed album.
Krakoa made this 100x worse imo
It was moronic even as early as Utopia. Heck you could argue even in the 80s but even there they were at least trying to call Magneto out more. Even had a whole world trial thing. Led to a fight with the Avengers because the X-men are... well you know how them muties get.
Every notable superhero has had occasions where they team up with one of their biggest villains to defeat some larger threat to them both, and it can be a moment to show how they do have things in common, or how the villain has some positive qualities, but after the bigger threat is dealt with, the villain goes back to being a villain. Magneto just getting to be one of the X-Men and accusing people of being bigots if they have a problem with it is just stupid, a guy who's done the things he's done isn't the type of character you can give a redemption arc to. The same is true for Maddie, you don't get to lead several demonic invasions of Earth and kill a lot of people, and get away with it. Lots of people have their husband or wife leave them, it's not an excuse for killing other people.
On the one hand I agree, on the other hand I feel like having a genocide or two in your past is kind of inevitable when you're a character written over the course of like six decades by god knows how many writers, even a bunch of our heroes have nasty rap sheets from some cracked out run as villains
>on the other hand I feel like having a genocide or two in your past is kind of inevitable when you're a character written over the course of like six decades by god knows how many writers
That should just mean later writers have to accept that villain is a villain, and off-limits for redemption arcs. We don't NEED villain redemption arcs.
>even a bunch of our heroes have nasty rap sheets from some cracked out run as villains
A hero doing that is just someone wrecking the character for future use, and shouldn't have happened in the first place. It's not really comparable to a villain doing the things he does every day.
A character who shouldn't even have existed in the first place got thrown under the bus in order to try and get things back to normal, and the villain version of her is just a better character. The people complaining just talk like waifugay simps making excuses for her crimes not mattering for meta reasons of why she became a villain. People did keep claiming she was forgiveable and redeemable, there are always hardcore Maddie simps trying to push some headcanon narrative about making Jean the real villain.
>That should just mean later writers have to accept that villain is a villain, and off-limits for redemption arcs. We don't NEED villain redemption arcs.
I really disagree with this, to be honest. I'm biased because I like redemption stories, but also if you really have to accept everything written since before any of us were born as untouchable canon you are severely limiting what you can do with a character without pulling some OMD-tier shenanigans. But at the same time, books with known characters are the only thing that ever sells
>I really disagree with this, to be honest. I'm biased because I like redemption stories
As the anon who said that, so do I sometimes, but there's a huge difference between trying to redeem someone like Rogue, Sandman or Black Widow, and someone like Magneto or Mystique. Some villains were just too evil or did things too extreme to come back from, and we don't need those characters to be redeemed, and it simply shouldn't be attempted, but the X-books keep doing it.
>A character who shouldn't even have existed in the first place got thrown under the bus in order to try and get things back to normal
She was the normal though. That's the thing. This kind of massive super retconning bullshit wasn't the norm for comics at the time. At most you'd get some fake out bait and switch but all accounts Jean was D-E-A-D dead. Jean wasn't removed to make room for Maddie. Maddie was removed to make room for Jean. This is the rub. Maddie might not have existed prior (Hah) but Jean was off the board entirely. They could have had Cyclops just as easily fall in love with Misty Knight or Colleen Wing (They were roomates with Jean in the 70s) and it would have been just as bullshit to have Jean come back out of the blue to undermine any new potential relationship scott would have had.
Anon, my point was that the Dark Phoenix Saga shouldn't have happened the way it did, Byrne shouldn't have been able to go rogue and add a planetary genocide scene to the story. Jean shouldn't have died, and thus none of the later things you're talking about, including Maddie being created, should have happened in the first place.
Stop trying to frame a weird blip period as "normal".
"Weird blip" that was a several year span with more than a hundred fricking issues. Yeah sure.
I repeat. Go suck dick somewhere else, you little homosexual, or learn what the frick you're talking about. Jean's not real and she won't frick you.
>seething this much that anyone dares object to some 40 year old comics
Absolutely pathetic, Claremont might be real but he's not going to take you to prom.
What if anon agrees to dress up as Storm?
Nobody gives a frick about you mewling like a b***h about old comics, they care that your take is absolutely fricking moronic and blatantly because you didn't actually fricking read any of them.
>Cyclops falls in love with Colleen
>We get Scott teaming up with Luke Cage & Iron Fist w/getting into Kung-Fu Hijinks
Ah the road not traveled.
Man the stuff you never knew you wanted till you were told you never could have had it.
>Scott becomes an Unofficial Hero for Hire
>Takes up some more martial arts thanks to Colleen and Danny
>More Apperceive to Japanese Culture, but not to the level of Logan. But he gets it.
>And with the X-Men, when shit goes really sideways, he'll say "Sweet Christmas."
Man, I miss the X-men being friends with non mutants.
Juggernaut's hanging out with them right now.
>mfw he only gets to hang out with the X-Men because he's one of their villains
Why should Scott learn kung fu when he already shoots out pure force from the Punch Dimension from his eyes?
Mastery of the kick dimension
IIRC Colleen was only in the book because Iron Fist got canceled and Claremont wanted to keep her and Misty around with Colleen as a love interest for Scott/a love triangle between the two and Jean.
Once editorial decided to fold Iron Fist into Power Man, Claremont had to give them up to the writer of PM/IF.
>TFW you could have had a cool samurai chick
You can always detect the newbie when frame Jean coming back as "getting things back to normal."
Look we get it you've never actually read a comic older than 1999. Frick off already and go suck dick somewhere else.
Right but you're sort of missing the key point here. Magneto was a villain to start with. Nobody is saying Maddie is forgivable or the good guy. What we're saying is the editorial pain train to make her as evil as possible as fast as possible for the sake of Jean kind of had a bit of the opposite effect. Not that we think she's good but it's just that we realize that the way she became evil was kind of shitty. It's kind of like when Hal Jordan went all Parallax.
That's not true for any Magneto story before the exact issue where Claremont started trying to redeem him. He was absolutely acting out of self-interest, and didn't have any regard for "his people" except as henchmen.
John Byrne claims that Claremont himself started out fully on board with Magneto as 100% pure evil, and only changed direction with him after Byrne was writing FF and blocked him from using Doctor Doom, Claremont then wanted his own noble antihero character and didn't just create one.
Again though Claremont didn't really want to redeem him, he just wanted to ask the question of "what the frick is Magneto's deal and *could* he be redeemed?" before settling on "No, no he could not. He might occasionally do good things, but at his core he's irredeemable."
To keep Claremont from ragequitting around issue UXM #199-201 when X-Factor got approved over his wishes, Shooter and Nocenti agreed that there would be ZERO interaction between X-Factor and X-Men so long as Claremont was around.
Timeline-wise:
Scott and Maddie leave NY to go back to Alaska at the end of UXM #201. They get home do the normal married life thing.
In UXM #202-203, the X-Men go to San Francisco to stop Rachel Summers from picking a fight with the Beyonder. After arriving and fighting some Sentinels Beyonder conquered, they decide to stay in San Francisco but while there, Rachel steals some of the team's lifeforce (including from a sleeping Wolverine) to blow up the M'Krann Crystal; basically planning on killing the entire universe just to stop the Beyonder. Rachel is talked down and we get the end of Secret Wars II with Beyonder killing and resurrecting the New Mutants. UXM #202-203, New Defenders #152 (where the Defenders get killed off), and the discovery of Jean Grey being alive all takes place between the events of SW #7-8, with Jean's return taking place between issues #7-8, meaning she was discovered before Beyonder killed the New Mutants as their deaths are mentioned in UXM #203.
After #203, Nightcrawler goes on walkabout and has a solo adeventure (#204) while Magneto and Wolverine return to New York, with Logan fighting Lady Deathstrike and Magneto helping the New Mutants deal with the fall out from being killed/resurrected. Kitty, Storm, Colossus, Rogue and Rachel stay in SF and contact Maddie/Scott that they are staying there. The group get a postcard from Scott/Maddie and Rogue starts pressuring the group to stay on break from super-heroing and extend their vacation by going to Alaska to visit the couple. Which she later admits, is so the group can force Rachel to reveal that she's Scott's daughter from an alternate timeline since Rogue thinks that's Rachel is suddenly getting so violent and hateful because of the stress of hiding her true identity from Scott.
X-Factor #1 came out earlier than this but timeline-wise, has to have occurred during the events of #204/205. After X-Factor #1, Maddie is hired to go deliver some cargo to San Francisco; whether or not she intended to hook up with the X-Men is unknown but once she gets to the city, the Marauders ambush her and shoot her/leave her for dead and steal her baby. This happens concurrent to UXM #206 and the fight between Freedom Force and the X-Men. The X-Men are forced to flee SF after losing the fight and decide to return to New York, not knowing Maddie is being rushed into an ER in a scene where Maddie isn't named and due to the colorist fricking up, giving Maddie strawberry blonde hair, which along with the fact that her being taken into the ER comes after Nightcrawler wondering how Amanda Sefton was doing, left people mistaking Maddie for Amanda as far as someone shooting Amanda and setting up a new storyline for Kurt.
In X-Factor #2, Scott makes a single attempt to contact Maddie but doesn't get ahold of anyone. He doesn't try again until X-Factor #13, by which point Jean now knows Scott remarried and left his wife and son for her. He can't find any trace of Maddie, all records of her existing had been wiped, and their house cleaned out save for a rattle that had fallen behind a radiator. Scott doesn't get to investigate further, because Master Mold attacks him and then rushes home to deal with the fallout of Angel losing his wings and "killing himself".
With issue #6, Louise Simonson took over writing X-Factor. Louise was Claremont's ex-editor but knew X-Factor was dying and convinced Chris to let her connect X-Factor to the mutant massacre storyline though under the cavet that the two teams would never meet during it.
To justify the two teams never meeting, a big plot point is given that the Fantastic Four and Avengers have fallen out with the X-Men over them working full time with Magneto. Jean Grey is told this, and Jean truly believes that the X-Men have turned evil and that Xavier is missing and presumed dead at Magneto's hand as part of his takeover of the school and team.
While Captain America later finds out this isn't quite true in New Mutants, it's the crux for why X-Factor doesn't tell the X-Men about Jean's return and a later scene in UXM #210 and X-Factor #9 (that take place at the same time) furthers the split. X-Factor sees Magneto leaving the Hellfire Club (where the Club is offering to bury the hatchet with the X-Men in terms of a truce and possible alliance) and Magneto recognizes the original X-Men as X-Factor. HOWEVER, Magneto assumes that Jean is Maddie. X-Factor's existence also causes a young mutant Kitty and Magik have befriended to take his own life in New Mutants #45. And Callisto is fully aware of the original X-Men=X-Factor and dismissively tells Havok, in UXM #219, to "check the yellow pages" when he tries to find where his brother was (as Havok hasn't seen or heard from his brother since he married Maddie and assumed he was back with the X-Men after his honeymoon). Callisto is also VERY angry with Scott for the X-Factor charade and later, in Inferno, it's implied that Magneto DID tell them about the founding X-Men working as mutant hunters, though he doesn't tell them about Maddie/Jean. Meanwhile, Logan has two instances of smelling Jean (#212 and #215) and freaking the frick out, leading to him keeping quiet about what he smelled because he can't bring himself to believe Jean is alive. Meanwhile, X-Factor sees Magneto leaving the Hellfire Club as proof that the X-Men have turned evil and why they don't contact the X-Men.
(Making shit worse is the Mephisto mini; X-Factor and X-Men are involved and Jean is temporarily taken prisoner by Mephisto and shown off to the X-Men; the writer of the piece had to tap dance around the X-Men leaving the mini thinking that Jean was still dead and that it was her soul they saw even as the Avengers got dragged into the denouncement of the story alongside the X-Men)
Maddie doesn't show up again until #215, where she wakes from a coma. #215/216 and #217/218 take place around the same time and we don't see Maddie again until #221, when the gang gets a call from Maddie saying she's in a SF hospital, that a group called the Marauders tried to kill her after they kidnapped her baby, and Scott has abandoned her. Dialogue again from Claremont dances around the issue of how much the X-Men know about X-Factor and the original founders being involved; most likely Magneto left out that "Maddie was working with them". It does confirm that Havok hasn't spoken to Scott since his wedding and Logan only just now knowing that Scott abandoned his wife and son, which pisses him off.
Maddie "dies" with the X-Men in UXM #227 and gives a final TV plea for Scott to find their missing child before "dying". Scott doesn't see the video until a couple of days afterward, as X-Factor and X-Men's Fall of the Mutant arcs take place at the same time (with the plot point that the Avengers and Fantastic Four are "being held in reserve" while X-Factor, Daredevil, and Power Pack fights Apocalypse and his forces, as to why they don't help the X-Men fight Adversary). Scott at this point, has embraced the idea of Maddie being dead after she "vanished" and is shocked that she was alive and that their son has been kidnapped. Jean meanwhile is gleeful that Maddie is dead and starts blaming her for not telling Scott sooner that their kid was kidnapped.
X-Men relocate to Australia and Maddie runs the computer system for the team, including their TV feeds, which is only available in their computer room. Maddie randomly sees footage of Jean/Scott together post-FOTM and realizes for the first time that Scott left her for Jean and has a breakdown, leading to her corruption into becoming the Goblin Queen.
At this point, Louis Simonson retcons in Maddie's death issue (X-Factor #38) a character assassination of Maddie, saying that she "withheld all video footage of X-Factor telling the world they were faking being mutant hunters and not showing them any footage of Jean alive". It isn't until UXM #240 that Maddie leaves her post for a romantic night out with Havok that Storm visits the computer room and by chance sees live footage of X-Factor and Jean being alive, leading to her confronting Logan who confirms he has known for a while. Storm plans on confronting her to see if she's really Jean the next morning the X-Men, having located the Marauders thanks to Maddie's demonic helpers, goes to fight them. Culminating in Inferno and the team finally meeting.
(At which point, it should be noted that around #223, Tom DeFalco took over as editor in chief of Marvel and in #232, Bob Harras took over as Claremont's editor. Bob refused to do another "faux" crossover where the teams never meet and demanded X-Factor and X-Men meet at least during Inferno and ordered Maddie thrown under the bus so Jean/Scott could reunite at a last.
>X-Factor's existence also causes a young mutant Kitty and Magik have befriended to take his own life in New Mutants #45.
Claremont trying to undermine the idea behind X-Factor out of spite, maybe?
Autism
By that page, Scott was regularly leaving his family to hang out with the X-men as well as fantasying about going back. Just before he tried to wrestle leadership of the X-men from Ororo but failed, so there is a precedent of Scott attempting to leave his family for the X-men, and now one of his former teammates wants him to come for something seemingly important. Nah, with context, Maddie totally in the right here.
Jesus christ the ass on her, god damn.
Everyone's cheeked up in this series.
Man, Boom boom was kind of always the worst wasn't she.
She's always been pretty shit, yeah. "The worst," is hard to pinpoint when it comes to X-Men. Such an odd serial.
At least in Nextwave she doesn't feel out of place.
BoomBoom was cute and fun. Frick out of here.
Poorly but at the time we all thought there would be consequences and good follow through after the reunion team up was over because Cyclops and comic books in general hadn't been fricking ruined yet so we trusted them to address the issue.
Then Inferno happened and now not only were comics ruined but Cyclops was a scumbag AND an idiot because who the frick leaves a woman who's willing to dress like that for Jean fricking Grey, particularly when the former is just Jean but with MILF curves and redder hair.
>Then Inferno happened and now not only were comics ruined but Cyclops was a scumbag AND an idiot because who the frick leaves a woman who's willing to dress like that for Jean fricking Grey, particularly when the former is just Jean but with MILF curves and redder hair.
The end of Inferno had her be just part of jean that got absorbed back, anyway, so that would have been a win/win. If anything, what messed things up further was bringing Maddie back later, as Goblin Queen even.
So how did Xillenials react to Magneto infiltrating the X-men by pretending to be a Chinese mutant with a White Dwarf Star in his head? Only it wasn't Magneto, it was a uh clone. And it turns out that Chinese mutant actually does exist....
Xorn being Magneto was actually a great plot twist, it was set up in advance and came as a huge mind frick and not a stupid retcon like everything with Madelyne. Turning him into a drug addict because he was old and needed the power boost was less okay but I suppose if he was insane enough to masquerade as Xorn, then being a cokehead isn't too far off. Plus this was right after his entire mutant paradise island was destroyed by a super sentinel, so him being pissed to the point of insanity made sense. I don't remember if they set up the chinese prison thing before or after Genosha getting nuked though. And the ending gave him closure if nothing else.
The 180 turn Marvel did after that was complete and utter bugfrick insanity.
The reveal itself worked as a good shock twist, but the story just goes off the rails afterwards in making him an insane crackhead and pretty incompetent at leading or inspiring anyone because of Morrison trying to make some point about mutant supervillains being an outdated concept and the new "mutant community" rejecting him and his ideology. At the same time it also had Magneto doing tribute acts to 9/11 and the Holocaust on-panel in ways people couldn't downplay or ignore like his earlier crimes, if it had stuck it would have destroyed any chance of him ever being treated as sympathetic or having a reasonable point ever again. Maybe that would have been better than him being treated as a hero who did nothing wrong, but that's what his fanbase wants, so that's what we're stuck with.
>Some fans loved it but Magneto apologists threw a screaming fit so loud, Marvel caved and let Claremont declare that it was an imposture that was running around as Xorn and never fricking found a way to make the retcon and the reveal that there was a good Xorn and a bad Xorn make a lick of sense.
IIRC the Xorn story ended with Wolverine cutting Magneto's head off, so bringing him back would either need a retcon that he switched places with an imposter or a resurrection story. An editor at the time really liked Xorn, so once they'd committed to a retcon that Xorn was impersonating Magneto, that editor pushed for Xorn's good twin to be introduced.
no one ever read comics, especially not cape sludge, this shit was for 'collecting' and they are still in mylar plastic, waiting for that day they are worth 2000% the original price. (Any day now)
Maddie's situation reminds of what's been going on in with Moira. It's rough being a non superhero cast member in cape comics at times. JLI Maxwell Lord is similar to those two with the complete reversal of character in order to be a major villian.
I never understood the massive Jean simping from Marvel. It has lasted through dozens of writers, EICs, artists, etc.
What the frick is it about her? I don't get the appeal, she's the most boring b***h in the whole franchise and yet the entire Marvel universe has to contort to make her the main character.
Writers fetish character/first crush. You see something similar with Gwen Stacy and Shadowcat. DC does it a lot with Barbara too. Generally if you can't understand why a boring basic b***h plain Jane character constantly gets pushed or hangs around or is just a total sacred cow, it's because either the writer used to fap to her (and probably still does) when they were younger, or she was made specifically to fill some really boring normie tier kink like, usually, teenage redheads or girls next door, shit like that.
>So how did boomers react to Cyclops marrying his dead girlfriend's clone and then his dead girlfriend coming back to life?
This kind of convoluted writing can only be made by capeshit writers who are miserable post modern deconstructionists.
>what if the LOVE OF YOUR LIFE DIED how would you feel haha
>what if she had a perfect clone haha could you love that? Could you sully the memory of your love and date a copy?
>the copy IS fake because guess what the ORIGINAL COMES BACK I bet you are FULL of guilt and confusion now. 😀
Absolutely diseased thinking
It's a threesome then.
Spider-Man could've had two Mary Janes. But she vaporised. No threesomes for Spidey.
Spider-Man 1994 X-men crossover let's go!
He is still with Mademe Web searching for Mary Jane by that timeline.
Ask Jerry from Rick and Morty he has two Beths.
I bet Wolverine feels like a loser compare to Scott in every way possible. Because he can only get a Morph Jean.
Wolverine's obsession with Jean makes him the most cucked man in Marvel, he pines for her even after she marries Scott, then she dies and Scott moves on with Emma, then she comes back and they're back together on sight while Emma and Logan look on in sadness. Jean throws Logan some pity attention now and then but it's approaching Namor-Sue tier, my man, find other puss to smash.
ITT: People literally shilling for a character whose 90% of stories are being a demon queen who either fricks or tries to kill her son, the simp knows no shame
But enough about Mary Jane Watson.
ITT: People literally shilling for a character whose 90% of stories are being a racist butthole who either gets all his friends killed or tries to commit hate crimes, the simp knows no shame.
literally who are you even talking about, no one here is shilling for magneto
>T. Has not read anything with Scott in it since 1984
>90% of scott's stories since 1984 are him being a racist who gets his team killed
this is how i know you're trolling, you couldn't even make a bad faith argument for this
"Rightclops" and "Mutant Billy-Bob" are memes about him for a reason, anon.
go ahead and read any rightclops era story. either utopia or post avx. none of them have scott be anti human, on the contrary, he explicitly states over and over he is fighting for coexistence. he just stopped being meek about it. his big revolution in uncanny #600 was a fricking speech about peaceful coexistence. the memes come from people who don't read comics.
"Cyclops is the worst person ever because of one poorly conceived story from 50 years ago that some oldgays will never let go" (handshake) "Hank Pym is the worst person ever because of one poorly conceived story from 50 years ago that some oldgays will never let go"
Same type of autism, anon
How did Scott pay for his bills while being an X-Men member?
Xavier fun bucks.
Lover Wolverine pulling the dad mowing the lawn in the summer look
He should just sell his optic blasts as clean energy
Goverment doesn't want to mess with the X-Men, they are free. I mean they could kill the entire Earth just by thinking about it.
Xavier Institue audit when??????
Correction. Now it is the Magneto Institute with Genoa Island.
The X-Men are the private army of multiple billionaires/private corporate entities.
Cheat code for infinite money
>Thought Cinemaphile was just bullshitting about Rogue fricking Magneto
>Clip pops up on Youtube of Rogue trying to get on his geriatric dick again
Why would they include this story? Nothing in all of the original TAS had Rogue fricking Magneto on the side, from what I recall.
It baffles me too, but I want to see where it goes. I thought Rogue and Magneto had solid chemistry whenever they hooked up.
Literally just a hold over of the Claremont days. The old cartoon was as much a love letter to his stories as it was a vehicle for 90s shilling.
>Why would they include this story?
To make the Rogue/Gambit girlies mad.
holy shit homestuck
sexo
What things can be salvaged from X-Factior and 90s X-Men that would gel with Claremont’s original idea of a happy ending for #300 where mutant hatred dialed back to before he started writing.
Apocalypse as one last endcap uber villain would probably be fine, and one last ride of the O5, or the O4+Dazzler/Jean's relative would have also been fine. Defeating Apocalypse after he tried some shit in a really public way would be a pretty good catalyst to dial down the mutant hate a fair bit.
Did Writers/Artists work on-premises back in the day?
Madelyne has always been interesting to me but whatever comics I got back in the 90s only ever had her on the fringes. I remember having this card which uh... captured my interest, but at the time, living in a small town where I bought comics from the supermarket, it was fricking impossible to figure out where she actually showed up
What should I read if I want to see her in her Goblin Queen era?
>What should I read if I want to see her in her Goblin Queen era?
Inferno.
Cheers, will check it out
Going back and rereading old comics is always an interesting, almost eye opening experience. You'd be surprised how many things you've taken as granted suddenly springing up on you, or things that seemed liked big deals that reach meme status not being around that long at all.
Why don't they just turn every into babies so they can restart their lives?
Haha what a crazy idea anon, that's so silly they would never-
You posted the wrong example of that.
Claremont hated it
And some boomers liked it because they wanted the OG team back
Wolverine was a hapless simp who hung out in girls apartments when they weren't there and whined about other men's girls.
Isn't that page from an Iron Fist issue? Because that is the biggest early simp moment for Wolverine. The only other moment is pic related when he bought her some flowers after she was injured when first exhibiting Phoenix powers.
People forget that so much of Claremont's X-Men context really comes from Classic X-Men (Claremont run reprints before we had collected editions which had new panels/edits and new back up stories). Like that completely recontextualised it as a love triangle and Jean at least flirting a bit with Wolverine rather than him just being stalker.
Yeah last issue. Wolverine is just skulking in her apartment like a creep. Danny heads over there because he forgot everyone was on vacation and they had a fight. More interesting, the previous issue was the first appearance of the villain Sabre tooth. As an Iron Fist villain. Like I said reading old comics is funny.
And what is shit is that issue is never collected in big X-men collections
Yeah but all this stuff got retconed by Claremont when he wanted to shit all over the Scott/Jean ship.
>Logan wouldn't do that. He'd kill you but he'd do it for the right reasons.
Chris, you had Logan snikt Rachel to save SELENE.
And Scott got to marry Jean, by then fused with Maddie. And they got to raise Nate.
>Chris, you had Logan snikt Rachel to save SELENE.
He wasn't doing it to save Selene, it was to save Rachel from becoming a killer.
Gee THANKS Mr. Logan, don't mind the thousand-year old mutant vampire getting away.
Sounds like some real hack tier writing too me
>she also almost married Caliban at one point.
Wish I could find a better pic of this, wedding gowns are my fetish.
What I’m getting at here is that Marvel started going off the deep end in 1985/6 and by 1992 was overripe and ready to pop.
I think a lot of issues could have been headed off if someone sat Claremont down and reminded him he didn't own the characters.
But considering the writers we got after. Frankly they should have just padded Claremont’s contract and let him go after.
Sure, but I'm talking abouy stepping in by the early/mid 80s.
Maybe, Claremont might of written a looser story or one that finished earlier. He also could have left in a huff just as he later did. Imagine Claremont going to DC and working on 90s comics there.
im always amazed when we have a thread with an easy coomer character and the thread actually has little fanart and instead focusing on how much someone like cyclops sucks
imagine hating cyclops more than you like breasts
>imagine hating cyclops more than you like breasts
Cyclops literally gave up those breasts, like, walked out on them and left them in a shack in alaska. And that was after the woman with said breasts went as far as allowing him to knock her up.
Any sane man would have every right to hate him for that.
Even beyond that, for all the weird offputting shit that happens in comics it's still a pretty messed up plotline. Plus the breasts are right there so it's not like we're missing out by talking about Scott.
Jean never really died The Phoenix Force, moved by Jean's wish to save herself and her friends. took the form of a duplicate body to house Jean's psyche. The duplication was so exact that the Phoenix Force believed iteslf to really Jean. And placed Jean's dying body in a healing cocoon. This cocoon is later described as a Phoenix Egg.
The ship crashes in Jamaica Bay, with the other X-Men unharmed. The Phoenix Force, as Jean Grey, emerges in a new costume and adopts the new codename "Phoenix", with immense cosmic powers. Meanwhile, the cocoon containing the real Jean Grey sinks to the bottom of the bay, unnoticed. Phoenix continues her life as Jean Grey with the other X-Men, joining them on missions and saving the universe
Busiek needs to be punched in the force for this hack idea.
Regrettably there is no way to undo it well actually there is but I am sure the recton would be moronic.
I unironically think he ruined Marvel and DC forever because of that decision.
How he fricked DC?
I still can't believe he came up with that shit.
>How he fricked DC?
It was the beginning of the idea that reverting to an older status quo was something that worked.
The Dark Phoenix trope fricked everyone harder.
I honestly sometimes still have a hard time seeing how we got from there to where we are now. It feels like so many lifetimes.