So the teleportation machine is basically a 3D printer and they kill their body every time they teleport and the machine makes a copy
So the teleportation machine is basically a 3D printer and they kill their body every time they teleport and the machine makes a copy
No its more like listening to digital music
You wouldn't download an astrophysicist.
>You wouldn't download an astrophysicist.
But I would download a waifu.
It transforms you into data and/or energy and then back into matter at the endpoint.
I can understand doing it from one machine to another, but how do they break down someone's molecules when they are standing on a planet not on the machine? how does it reassmble their molecules without a machine present?
they aren't breaking down molecules. that's just a modern/reddit interpretation of the transporters. canonically its just some magic that converts matter directly to energy and back again. made when people thought energy based life forms could/would exist.
You don't actually need to be standing on the machine for it to work. You just need to be in its vicinity of like few thousand miles or something. The transporter room is just a designated place so people can gather and leave or arrive together.
why cant the transporter be used as a weapon then? You could just target somebody and beam them into molecules.
what do you think phasers are?
Shields protect people from other ship's transporter beams and other things can cause interference too. Though yes you could theoretically use it as a weapon that messes up people's molecules and stuff, but that would be extremely messy.
?t=80
The Asgard in SG-1 had their "go somewhere" teleport weapon they used a few times. They just beamed people (and ships) but but not back down.
Voyager literally had a race of space organ harvesters that used weaponized surgical telliporters
I know, but if you just wanted to turn something into a pile of goo.
They also had that Black person tribe race thats stole voyagers tech and beamed their political opponents into space.
Site to site transport is Next Generation tech. They wet always in a transporter room at the start, the finish or both in TOS.
Yes, I was talking about TNG and the subsequent series.
It breaks you down to the molecular level and reassembles you wherever you were going. Whether or not that's killing you and reanimating you is somewhat vague, although there is at least one ep of TNG that shows Barclay in a transport and it seems to imply that the character maintains their stream of consciousness the entire time.
One interesting thing to note however is that each time you're transported a "back up" is stored in the transfer buffer which can be accessed to pull you back if there is some problem or disruption in transit. The show never explicitly states it, but I don't know how that can be anything other than a copy of you with all of your memories.
We’ve,a;so seem characters move around both during the initial transport and as they appear. Even in the original series.
>Even in the original series.
When? I can't remember any time that they were moving during transport. That would probably make it much harder to add VFX in the late 60s.
That Which Survives. They look around and see the transporter operator murdered as they are beaming out. And they talk while being transported in Wrath Of Khan.
You're right, that does seem unusual, though. The scene seems to imply that they can't move to rescue that guy. None of them even say anything.
>can't
i mean if you're partially shifted into energy, moving outside of the device doing it would be a bad idea
Yeah but none of them say anything or move their arms or anything like that. Kirk only moves his head once. I think usually transporting someone makes them freeze in place.
>transporting someone makes them freeze in place.
the opposite has been shown multiple times.
Well I was more curious about TOS because it would seem a lot more difficult to do that with someone who's moving. I get that in the movies they can, but it's interesting that there's the one example from the show.
the most memorable example was in undiscovered country, where kirk gets transported just as a henchman of the villain was going to monologue out the whole plot. shatner curses a bunch of times and its distorted by the transporter process.
>It breaks you down to the molecular level and reassembles you wherever you were going
how did the transporter reassemble riker in two places at once (thomas riker)
>although there is at least one ep of TNG that shows Barclay in a transport and it seems to imply that the character maintains their stream of consciousness the entire time
And that episode is later contradicted by the episode with Scotty where he puts himself in a transporter lock to avoid certain death and when they finally pull him out he thinks only a short time has passed. Like so many things in Trek transporters make no sense and work however the writers want them to work.
Yeah basically
Most of the cells in your body get replaced anyway as a normal biological function, so if you want to be cynical then you're already a copy of a dead person
that isnt true. your brain cells are never replaced
yea, they are.
moron
google neurogenesis
have fun feeling stupid
>Neurogenesis is the process by which new neurons are formed in the brain. Neurogenesis is crucial when an embryo is developing, but also continues in certain brain regions after birth and throughout our lifespan.
now what moron?
so you're telling me you googled that, read that, copy/pasted it, are looking at it right now, and somehow didn't register that it means "brain cells" are replaced over time? and you think you aren't a moron?
>certain brain regions
what do you think this means
that nerves/neurons are replaced over time.
in negligible amounts poorly evidenced and not the entire brain making your original statement wrong. glad we got there
see, this is why its so hard to improve general human knowledge. people just latch onto the first idea they hear and then scream of anyone comes near it.
>making phonepost/autocorrect typos on a keyboard
why can't i die
OK, I'm going to be honest here, I fricked up and thought I was right. But I was wrong. Dreadfully wrong. Please have your way with me as my apology to you
thats ok
I think that would be actual suicide if you did it to the consciousness cells and depersonalizing at minimum
I dont think so, dendrites would modulate how regenerating cells position themselves
sorry to break it to you bro, but "learning" is literally brain damage.
so are you horrible ignorant or well learnt
>I think that would be actual suicide if you did it to the consciousness cells and depersonalizing at minimum
What the frick are consciousness cells?
Anyway it would be more more your death than getting your brain scrambled up in the accident at the first place. better to just reset to the latest version of you that wasn't moronic and you lose a week of experience.
>It's not even clear that qualia as experienced in consciousness exists independently of memory outside of the moment of its experience.
what are you trying to say here? Qualia outside of the moment it is experienced isn't independent from memory? Isn't that incredibly fricking obvious? What else could it be when it's not being experienced?
No, it's not obvious at all, actually.
Consider twilight sedation, a form of sedation in which the patient is perfectly lucid and capable of memory recall as well as engaging in complex dialog yet is simultaneously unable to formulate any memories about the experience of being under the effects of the drug.
It's quite clear that the person is experiencing qualia, from the outside perspective, yet those experiences are completely lost to the patient once the memory blockers and opioids wear off. There have been several experiments conducted on people undergoing surgeries under different forms of anesthesia which demonstrate quite clearly that there is some degree of consciousness operating at a different, fragment degree of vividness. So, say you wake up from twilight sedation after having a tooth removed with absolutely zero memory of the experience of being under for those 20 minutes to an hour ... who, precisely, experienced the qualia? You can't claim it was your consciousness.
>You can't claim it was your consciousness.
sure you can, you forget most memories the only difference is the immediacy
You can as much claim that your consciousness experienced that qualia as you can claim that it experienced someone else's subjectively apprehended qualia.
The past is not relevant to the present, which is the only thing that exists as a concrete substance.
thats real dumb bro
you're just being solipsistic
Why on earth can't I claim it was my consciousness? Forgetting something doesn't mean it doesn't happen or it didn't happen to me.
>You can as much claim that your consciousness experienced that qualia as you can claim that it experienced someone else's subjectively apprehended qualia.
uh no.
>The past is not relevant to the present, which is the only thing that exists as a concrete substance.
My consciousness experienced the twilight qualia at the time. Saying that "I" didn't experience it is as useful as saying I didn't experience literally anything in the past. Which might be true if you're being really pedantic, if you want to say that the me from now is different from the me from yesterday. But you're not actually saying anything about the relationship between memory and consciousness.
>What the frick are consciousness cells?
>Anyway it would be more more your death than getting your brain scrambled up in the accident at the first place. better to just reset to the latest version of you that wasn't moronic and you lose a week of experience.
some parts of your brain can be destroyed and you will maintain coherence of your mind these cells can't be. I'm saying similarly that you could modify some cells but if you modified those ones you would be effectively killing the person because you aren't just the cells in stasis you are the chemical/physical reaction occurring and to interrupt it is to die
I don't think you understand what you're talking about, my dude. You could, but if I don't understand what you're saying then there's a pretty good chance you don't.
if what I said was wrong then you could do paradoxes with ship of theseus type things
I didn't understand what you meant by consciousness cells? Are you referring to the cells in the brain that produce consciousness? Because we don't understand those at all. Not one bit.
we don't need to empirically understand them to rationally deduce their nature (barring supernatural or physics absurdities)
Well, actually consciousness as we understand it seems to be grounded upon quantum mechanical principles. So, we absolutely cannot deduce its properties yet. Only its consequences.
whats the evidence for that? the precog mris? probably not accounting for dendrites if so
Nano tubules discovered in 2020.
You only experience the past through memory, as well as the present. If this wasn't the case then anesthesia wouldn't work. Your brain essentially hallucinates reality at a considerable lag compared to the present moment as a philosophically distinct substance.
This is an unfathombaly complex topic, I highly recommend C.S.Peirces work on logic.
>You only experience the past through memory, as well as the present. If this wasn't the case then anesthesia wouldn't work. Your brain essentially hallucinates reality at a considerable lag compared to the present moment as a philosophically distinct substance.
This has nothing to do with the claim that forgetting something means you didn't experience it. Forgetting something means you can no longer re-experience it, which you can't do anyway because memory isn't experienced the same way the present is.
>This is an unfathombaly complex topic, I highly recommend C.S.Peirces work on logic.
lmao, just admit you're wrong at this point.
Black person there are no specific "cells that produce consciousness." consciousness is an emergent function. damaging certain parts of the brain removes/corrects the contradictions that consciousness arises from.
so destroying the olfactory bulb destroys part of your consciousness in your opinion?
Why wouldn't it? It makes a lot more sense than saying there's secret undiscovered "cells" that somehow "contain" consciousness.
or that we're actually being projected into meatspace from the quantum realm
That's just attributing it to magic, which a lot of people do because no one understands quantum physics and it's easy to make up bullshit in the gaps of knowledge and comprehension.
because all it does is provide smell data to other more important parts of your brain. I'm not saying they're secret or whatever, I'm just saying there's a subset of brain cells that are more important that form the actual consciousness and the rest of the cells provide secondary functions
shit Black person, damaging/severing the corpus Corpus callosum results in two distinct consciousnesses.
I dont know why I see people say this now when I was taught about it, it was absent. you can have contradictory reactions simultaneously without having it severed.
it can be suppressed without being severed/damaged, of course.
No they are not. Brain cells and certain other cells, such as the lenses of your eyes, do not replace themselves over time.
sorry bruh, that's just an old rationalization of how nerve/brain damage never really heals.
You have watched too much Michiu Kako and Lawrence Krauss. They completely misunderstood how the transporter works.
It's a super famous thought experiment, like the trolley problem, you morons.
>If a teleportation machine kills you and then rebuilds you somewhere else 100% as you were before, are you really the same person? And more importantly, would you get in the machine?
This is ontological philosophy 101.
Not how it works in Star Trek so you can frick right off.
yes it is
It uses your original atoms. Ship of Theseus.
you arent just atoms you're the state they're in. replicating both is impossible because of heisenberg uncertainty principle
note how the "super famous thought experiment" doesn't use the word "transporter?"
yes, the consciousness is universal
worst thing in trek. i was so happy when i heard they wouldnt do that in enterprise, took them about 3 episodes to give up and start using it like it was no big deal again.
the transporter was fake. Gene came up with it as a way for his characters to pop in and out of trouble without taking up plot time.
Yes, but its one of the biggest cope issues in trek so be prepared for 200+ replies about how you dont understand how being demolecurized actually works
why are you replying to yourself?
The cope has already began i see
bruh, the whole "transporters kill you thing" was literally made up by people who didn't watch star trek.
You post like a reddit tourist
damn bastards stealing my style
It was barclay's fear.
his fear wasn't that they kill you every time, but that they would kill you.
then he has his whole episode where he's transported a bunch of times, remains completely conscious, and then pulls people who were stuck in the matter stream out.
>So the teleportation machine is basically a 3D printer and they kill their body every time they teleport and the machine makes a copy
Yes. It's a nightmare machine. I'll take the shuttle every fricking time.
You're dead, Bones. Give it a rest.
https://existentialcomics.com/comic/1
>So the teleportation machine is basically a 3D printer and they kill their body every time they teleport and the machine makes a copy
>Be teleporter operator
>Make a copy of every hot female
>Print a copy in my secret rape asteroid dungeon
Why not?
I'm pretty sure the idea is that barring very unusual circumstances the transporter can't make more than one "copy". The energy patterns or whatever they are that determine how to reconstitute a person dissipate very quickly.
Copy it in an space pendrive.
It's got like a halflife or something, can't be stored for long.
If you want a harem it's better to find/build a bunch of androids like this chad did.
Buffer is essentially continual according to what the doctor in SNW is doing to his daughter.
>so according to fanfiction
who cares?
there was a tng ep with scotty stuck in the pattern buffer for decades, it's not exactly far fetched
he rigged that up to basically loop the transporter process to prevent degradation.
but of course people are doing in paramount's star trek prequel shows. cuz apparently no one from the shows people actually liked is allowed to have ever done anything that wasn't done first by a strong black transwoman
Scotty spent years in the transporter buffer though
Yeah but it was supposed to be some kind of engineering masterwork, plus he was prepared to do it, I think normally transporters can't do that.
>Why not?
That's what holodecks are for.
If this were the case I'd think more villains would be using this technology to create copies of people for nefarious purposes. Imagine if you were a Romulan and you could make an exact copy of Picard with all of his knowledge and memories and could interrogate him without the real one even going missing.
common misconception, but no. It doesnt create a copy. The transporter stream is literally the exact same particles and atoms, just moved and reassembled
>reassembled
actually they aren't even disassembled in the first place. just shifted to energy and then back at the destination point.
It should've worked by bending space/time around the target. Like it opens a portal to the destination essentially. Then you avoid all these stupid discussions
the way it works is explained in the show, and illustrated several times. these "discussions" are forced by people who never watched the show.
so what happens if the transporter bugs out and it takes 10 minutes to reassemble you, were you just dead in between? what about 1000 years?
there was an episode where the transporter creates two rikers. which one was the real one?
I think there was the TNG episode where Scotty spends like 100 years stuck in the transporter buffer until they retrieve him. It was like being in stasis.
People that die in the transport beam are dead.
Gee, what an original thought you had, Op. no one has ever advanced that idea in the history of ever. Please share with us your other dazzling insights.
No.
>Transporter accidents are so rare that they only happen once every 6 months on the most technologically advanced ship in the fleet
Transporters were literally the safest way to travel. Ships and shuttles and air cars have accidents at a higher rate than transporters do.
Yeah I hate how when you take a shuttle sometimes you come back as a kid
Sure, and shuttles sometimes blow up and reduce you to irradiated plasma. Your point?
>disintegrate body
>reassemble body, but turn all the body fat into a bigger dick, breasts or ass
>disintegrate body
>reassemble body, but invert your penis and add a hairy wound that goes up inside your body
I'm a woman now
>disintegrate body
>recreate foreskin that Ferengi cut from you as a helpless baby
well you take joe rogans word for it and ill take the copius amounts of evidence that the brain cant regenerate from injury thus proving the lack of neurogenesis. I mean really you cant even heal the small amount of nerve damage causing tinnitus and you think you have full body cell turnover
@
>not being able to regrow your limbs proves you can't regrow cells
also that shit is literal mind poison.
That's not how injury and healing works.
If you snap your leg it'll heel, but you need to set it in a cast so it doesn't heal at an angle and cripple you.
Similarly, if your brains are all scrambled they might heal but with the structure all muddled up causing you to act like a moron or have a different personality.
which isn't even talking about scar tissue.
so you're saying we need brain casts?
Yes, we also need weekly brain scans so we can reset the neurons to the last known non-moronic position they were in. If you set them in place after an accident it's too late.
pretty much, yea. if the brain was capable of regenerating to a specific form on its own we'd never be able to learn anything, as the brain would "regenerate" that experience away. kinda like if we could regrow limbs, and you cut a message into your arm, and then cut off your arm, when the limb grew back the message would be gone.
You are not the same person you were even a second ago, your brain's molecules are constantly reacting and circulating and changing such that you are completely changed within a short space of time. The people in the star trek universe know this and accept this, which is why they don't care.
The question was answered many times in Star Trek. No, you don't die and get replaced by an exact copy.
When turned into energy, you form an unique "pattern" stored in the database, that pattern cannot be replicated, you cannot use other energy element to complete the teleportation (if not, scanning someone would be enough to summon an army of clones). Many times a transportation is impossible because they never managed to retrieve enough of the original energy pattern, that's also why you cannot teleport threw shields, your energy actually has to move threw.
Scotty managed to store his own pattern for 80 years in the buffer of a ship.
Silly techbabble
>techbabble
yep.
As a philosogay, this is not a rabbit hole you want to go down.
It's not even clear that qualia as experienced in consciousness exists independently of memory outside of the moment of its experience.
However, continuity between consciousness is presumed to follow the same rules as the physical laws governing material reality. So, as long as you're reassembled perfectly there should be no difference in experience for the consciousness being teleported versus say being knocked out, or going to sleep.
Mass is mostly made up of empty space between atoms anyway. It's not worth worrying about. Only college Freshman or their equivalent worry about it.
this stuff is only troubling because we have a tendency to imagine ourselves as discreet objects instead of a process moving through time. There's no static "you".
Yup. And when ~~*they*~~ come out and say they've discovered technology to immortalize yourself by downloading your brain into a computer it will be the same thing. It will simply kill you and creat a copy of you that thinks its you. It will have the memories and personality and such of you but the old you will have died and the copy won't even know.
>Yup. And when ~~*they*~~ come out and say they've discovered technology to immortalize yourself by downloading your brain into a computer it will be the same thing. It will simply kill you and creat a copy of you that thinks its you. It will have the memories and personality and such of you but the old you will have died and the copy won't even know.
If reincarnation is real I'll try to remember this point for the next time I spawn in the year 3000.
if you hear anyone talking about this "technology" in the next couple 100 years they're doing some kind of financial scam.
science is just magic people pretend to understand by writing 5000 pages long "explanations" that when removed of all the fancy talk and pretentiousness just boils down to "I don't know".
Go teleport yourself
Sometimes a character will say something like "Three to beam up" when they're in group of more than three. In some cases, it's obvious which three people are to be beamed up but lots of the time, it's not but somehow the transporter operator always gets it right.
you think the guy who's job is to stand in that little room all shift every day isn't monitoring the situation out of sheer boredom?
Sta trek has a general and this thread should have been incorporated there.
that general is about dead, kept alive only by autism. one dude has been spending 18+ hours a day just screaming at himself about how mad everyone is that the new shows don't suck, every day, for over two years now.
You literally have schizophrenia. It is many, many people, and they are not the problem. You derail any actual discussion. Get medicated homosexual.
hahaha okay dude whatever you say.
I know right? He's in /trek/ right now, linking to this thread and talking shit.
He's quite insane.
Yes anon nutrek sucks