Something I cant stand in American animation currently is that the composition of the vast majority is done in the sitcom style. Where it's "shot" at flat level and everyone is just kinda standing around.
I hate to make this an "Cinemaphile vs Cinemaphile" type thread but I wish we'd do more stuff like anime does in terms of visual composition and the use varying frame rates.
Action scenes in particular don't hold much weight since the frame-rate is kept so consistent, there's no emphasis on a big attack or movement usually.
pic related the classroom pic, you almost NEVER see a shot from that angle in currently running cartoon here. and the Mako spotlight pic shows another thing, lighting. So much in American cartoon is flat lighting. Unless its nightime and maybe sometimes afternoon, everything is flat.
TLDR: I want American animation to do less baseline shit with its mise-en-scene.
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Amphibia is better than the shows you posted
Actually funny.
You probably havent even watched TWO of those you lying frick.
Dont need to watch generic high school anime feces to know amphibia is better
Anon I know you're only saying this to fit in to the contrarian mindset of Cinemaphile, please stop its embarassing. Besides the two are so different in tone and plot trying to say one is objectively better is absurd.
I genuinely think amphibia is better
I don't you can say that having not at least partially watched the other material you're shitting on.
Ive watched kill la kill weekly when it first aired
What makes Amphibia better then?
Better writting
Haven't seen any of those Jap shows but Amphibia was unwatchably bad so they've got to be really terrible for this to be true
Not him but Kill La Kill is terrible, if OP likes it I can safely assume the other two are as well, whatever they are
you are a moron if you think KLK has bad composition.
look at this, this tells you EVERYTHING about the gap in power, the relationship between the characters and tone all in simple "object size scale up, other object size scale down"
Not really fair since no one can watch Hyouka without falling asleep.
if hyouka wasn't there i'd agree
Amphibia isn't better than any cartoon or anime in the past 20 years, you fricking zoomer.
>Bait quality: 3/10
># of (You)s: 5
>Bait ranking: C-
Ya need to really sell it next time, Anon. I gave you extra credit for pissing off the millenials though.
No
Amphibia is a generic piece of shit millennial cartoon with contrived writing, a braindead cast of characters, and serious tone issues. To say it stands out in any way even among its own peers, let alone western animation as a whole, let alone the medium of animation in general, is absurd.
I like Amphibia a lot but yeah I agree about the tone issues, too many times I felt there serious moments shanked by a sudden knife of comedy. Also the whole "Anne gets a little too relaxy after witnessing her close friend reveal she purposely isekaied them, then got stabbed in the chest by giant energy sword and basically died literally in front of her" like Anne had literally nothing but her own denial to make her believe Marcy didnt IMMEDIATELY die from that.
This. That anime was so shit. There's a reason why they are against the rules here
you're not the target audience plus you probably dont pay for cartoons anyway
Its not about being the target audience its about having an admiration for the medium. It can be better they just dont care to even try.
Why should they try though? This is America, land of the almighty dollar. There is zero incentive to put in any more effort or money than the bare minimum.
Cause passion breeds quality which leads to higher overall standards and stronger overall apprehension of entertainment. Also you know you should have a sense of pride in your work if you create things.
You really think the suits at corporate give a single frick about "passion" or "pride in your work"?
No, which is why they deserve to be slowly fed into a meat grinder legs first and then have it turned off once the thighs are reached.
such a long nose for a japanese
Reddit spacing
the second spacing was unintetional
Modern anime has some of the worst staging and lighting in animation, at least with shows like Amphibia there's intent in its direction. And that's not to excuse North American animation either, it has plenty of its own problems - but to act like anime is above it, when it's possibly never looked worse? Lmao
What do you hate about the screencap you posted?
anon wtf are you on, that scene looks fantastic
i think that anon just forgot to clarify that what he posted is what he considers classic and good because that's a screenshot from serial experiments lain and lain is 24 years old now
I get what you mean OP.
It hasn't always been like that.
If anything this "sitcom style" of animation really only became popular in the west during the 00s and 10s.
When shows like Adventure Time, made by people who can barely draw, got super popular a lot of people realized they could get away with the lazy scene compositions.
Justice League Unlimited and some of the other cartoons from that era did better on that front.
But lighting I agree with, outside of films you rarely see anything interesting done with that in cartoons.
>Modern anime has some of the worst staging and lighting in animation
This is the most braindead "old good, new bad" take I've ever seen, I doubt you're even watching any modern shows or paying attention to what you're watching.
There's so many modern anime that have great staging and lighting, and many of the artists behind them are the same guys that were around in the 90s and before.
If anything a lot of the older tv shows (pre-90s especially) had it way worse because a lot of the drawing styles and techniques hadn't been developed yet.
The sense of depth and volume in many 80s anime is just flat out terrible at times, a hold over from the 'tv manga' era, we didn't start to see improvements in that until the late 80s and that was in films and OVAs.
Anime advanced a lot by the 90s and 00s, and digital animation has allowed for the use of more subtle and precise details and far more complex effects, composites, and compositions.
Anime, and animation as a whole, died with the switch to digital in the 2000s. But at least there's still some decentish anime that are done about as well as can be done in the modern digital hell like Summer Time Rendering.
A particularly desperate example of trying to sound superior through verbal vomit that has no actual meaning.
In normal people land people take one look at anime and amphibia and decide they prefer anime in less than a second, amphibia has to copy anime to try to look cool like with the Dragon Ball transformations, all the American industry has is trying to groom a few Zoomers
>verbal vomit
Says the namegay whining about 'muh grooming'. Just say you're not art literate and save yourself further embarassment.
Japan got good at doing visually interesting stuff decades ago. The 1970s is usually called the dark age of animation in the West, but it's frankly the time period when a handful of Japanese artists were preserving and expanding on the ideas from classic animation, while Americans were fine and happy with the worst possible stuff that pushed zero boundaries. Shows like Conan or Heidi are like 45+ years old, and they're still strong and interesting. Ambition goes a long way, and it will show in the end. Not trying to make this an east vs west thing, I think it's best if animation if viewed a universal and regionless study where people can learn and choose what they think is best.
Shut the frick up
You gonna use "anime tropes" argument?
Also you hypocritical frick, this entire board use "calarts" as a negative buzzword to describe soft rounded character designs.
>Calarts is bad too
No shit, moron.
then why did you use that webm? Like no shit anime has its issues with various tropes and cliches as well. My point is anime does MORE with its animation and scene shots
Shot composition and blocking aren't 'tropes', you fricking moron. This shit might as well have been made by an AI it's so manufactured and by-the-numbers.
yes it is you idiot.
So why is it okay for anime to do this and not cartoons? Hypocrite
Its not but anime at least does more shit on average.
Amazing. More SOUL in 11 seconds than the entire American animation industry will ever have.
anime is unironically the most soulless shit in existence right now
it's literally assembly line mass produced garbage
at least with western animation it's usually original concepts that aren't adaptations of a manga lightnovel or vidya
adaption = bad
anon what?
what idiotic way to say that you lack reading comprehension
Not him, but one must admit it's pretty embarrassing when your entire animation industry exists only as an add-on for the manga industry, without original ideas or series.
Not really, especially when the original stuff put out by your competitors is exclusively children's cartoons and awful sitcoms that can't even be funny anymore because humour is problematic in America nowadays.
You could tell someone all those clips came from the same anime and they'd believe you.
You could do the same with most modern cartoons.
that is factually incorrect
It really is not.
You just think otherwise since you still watch children's cartoons.
It'd be like pointing to someone on Cinemaphile who watches tons of moe and romcoms who could name most of the shows in that webm.
It is
Each cartoon produced looks wildly different from each other
Even the most popular ones don't look alike at all
It's one of the things western animation is known for
Summer Camp Island
The Owl House
Invincible
The Cuphead Show
Hilda
Primal
lego monkey kid
Rise of tmnt
If you honestly think these cartoons look the same you're a moron or just coping because anime is souless garbage
>Each cartoon produced looks wildly different from each other
Stopped reading there.
So you're just flat out blind then?
Good to know
>It's one of the things western animation is known for
was known for*
Nowadays most western cartoons have a style that's an offshoot of one of the following
>Adventure Time
>Steven Universe
>Rick and Morty
>Family Guy
>DCAU junk (which includes stuff like Invincible)
All those shows look like shit.
>Spongebob, Owl House, South Park and TGAMM all look the same
lol no
and those were just examples I could name off of the top of my head
And those examples you named literally span 25 years.
South Park and Spongebob are still airing, are they not?
And they started airing 25 years ago.
You want more examples then?
Primal, Rick and Morty, Song of the Sea, Hilda, Bluey
All shows that are within a reasonable timeframe of one another that look distinct.
My point is that even at its weakest, cartoon stuff still looks more distinct and refreshing by design than most anime
>My point is that even at its weakest, cartoon stuff still looks more distinct
Sure
>and refreshing
No.
Being distinct and ugly is not a positive.
It works when your show is aiming for comedy (and is actually funny), but modern American comedy is absolute trash so it doesn't even have that going for it, so they're just ugly.
I can maybe give you rick and morty, but the rest on that list are by no means ugly
"That list" is like 5 cartoons, one of which is theatrical cartoon, and I assume we're going to avoid theatrical stuff since western 2D theatrical animation is an endangered species.
But still so, you can agree that even between five shows, there's still more variety in designs than that of say, 20 or so modern anime.
Nah, depends on the 20 anime.
That list also has more variety than a list of 10 random cartoons I could choose (especially adult animated sitcoms) but that alone doesn't mean much.
Yeah. Imagine if animation industry was kickstarted by adapting European fairy tales
>with western animation it's usually original concepts
you mean anime ripoffs?
Primal is an anime ripoff?
Yes, because Primal is the only western animation that has existed in the last 10 years.
its okay to admit that sol moeshit is hot garbage i hope you know that
You're moronic and the reason why anime has not gotten better in a long time.
Crayon Shin-chan has more soul than any of those, even with the starting style and starting safer slow plots. Motherfricking Bobobo has more soul than any of those and it parodies itself.
>Shut the frick up
That clip portrays more poses than some entire western series.
this
holy shit I didn't know about this, now I'm even madder than when it was just Toil&Trouble and Dark Crystal
Netflix is at a big cancel spree when it comes to animation
>Boons and Curses
>Wings of Fire
>Bone
>Toil and Trouble
And who knows how many more. Meanwhile you get this https://www.animationmagazine.net/featured-2/netflix-to-launch-oddballs-new-comedy-by-youtube-creator-james-rallison/
Amphibia has plenty of dynamic shots, it's not a good example. And anime can be really flat too in a different way, shots of characters standing stiffly and talking next to a boring white wall or some other badly drawn background are very common. see
>Amphibia has plenty of dynamic shots
Not OP, but can I see some?
Im not saying Amphibia doesnt have dynamic shots or that anime doesnt have stiff framing. But Ive watched a lot of cartoons and a lot of anime and I on average see more dynamic scene composition from anime more than I do american cartoons.
Different philosophies in animation
Anime tends to incorporate more dynamic shots and composition, because there is little to no actual animation in them
If there is no animation in the scene the want it to at least look clean and visually interesting
So they can save the budget for sakuga
In comparison to western animation which favors more consistent fluid animation all around
So you see less visually interesting shots and composition
Shots like these are not an issue at all, these are your basic bread & butter compositions like a shot reverse shot or over the shoulder. You could literally make this webm with any visual medium because they're unavoidable in any of them whether it be anime, cartoons, single-camera shows, live-action film or even in comics & manga.
The problem is when uninspired shots like that make up 99% of a show which is what OP's talking about.
Anime doesn't have that problem as much as western animation does right now.
And even in western animation I think this has more to do with the constraints of tv animation in particular rather than the skill of the artists.
When it comes to films and the high production dramas that you see on these streaming platforms the art direction is always stellar.
Also the webm is using a ton of comedy/SoL shows which literally are just anime's version of sitcoms, so the lazy composition and lighting doesn't matter as much in that context because those scenes aren't trying to express anything too dramatic.
>Also the webm is using a ton of comedy/SoL shows which literally are just anime's version of sitcoms, so the lazy composition and lighting doesn't matter as much in that context because those scenes aren't trying to express anything too dramatic.
That's the problem that webm is trying to illustrate. Every season of anime has half its catalogue dedicated to either schoolhouse comedies or isekais that look no different from the last. It's just ends up being mass produced garbage.
At least I can actually name all the western animated sitcoms that gotten popular over the years.
>At least I can actually name all the western animated sitcoms that gotten popular over the years.
Mainly because you ignore all the straight-to-streaming junk that no one cares about like pic related.
I can't speak for writing, but there's a very good chance someone could separate this from Family Guy or the Simpsons based on design alone.
But the question is, would someone want to watch it?
Would someone look back on it fondly as something worth their time and not junk?
Would they do it for pic related?
Here's a list of some of the anime airing this season. Aside from maybe Made in Abyss they look very same-y to one another.
The point that webm was trying to make is that anime has become very mass produced, leaving little to no room for visual variety.
>Aside from maybe Made in Abyss they look very same-y to one another.
And how many of those shows have you actually watched?
My point is design, not writing. For that you could actually make a case that watching the whole thing necessary for comment.
That's like saying you need to watch all of The Cuphead Show in order to state that it looks different from Invincible.
>My point is design
That doesn't answer my question.
There's more to design than what the characters look like on the cover.
Saying "those shows have the same design" kind of displays a complete lack of understanding of what design entails.
>what is visual design
More than just the characters.
Well if that's the case then anime does even worse at that. There a plenty of shows that use the same cut and paste settings, outfits, and props for their shows.
like what?
School layouts and the same CGI rendered light effects for moves in RPG fantasies, just to name two.
>There a plenty of shows that use the same cut and paste settings
And as we all know this is definitely never the case with cartoons.
I'm not going to look at a poster for the devil is a part-timer, open it up on a streaming site and see that it actually looks like Family Guy upon viewing. It's a fair assumption to make that what's being advertised on the poster is really what the product looks like.
But The Devil is a Part Timer doesn't look like Call of the Night, which is the point.
Especially when it comes to the use of colour in each.
>moeblob cast with big round eyes, minimalist facial features, and colourful haired girls with a male protag totally doesn't look anything like this other show that contains the exact same traits in its main cast
Why do you insist on talking about shows that you clearly know nothing about and using terms (like moeblob) that you clearly don't understand?
>clearly no nothing about
Then prove me wrong about this comparison, what exactly makes the cast of characters from Devil Part-timer and Call of the Night look visually distinct from one another when they share more similarities in design than differences.
>what exactly makes the cast of characters from Devil Part-timer and Call of the Night look visually distinct from one another when they share more similarities in design than differences.
This is something that you would be able to easily see for yourself if you actually watched the shows.
A better question would be what about the design of the settings, the use of colour, the locales, and, y'know, all the other aspects of visual design is different.
I can look up pictures or go on MyAnimeList for designs and read synopsises on who's apart of the main cast and who's not. If it were about writing then you'd have a point but this is about DESIGN.
>I can look up pictures or go on MyAnimeList for designs
And yet you only talk about the characters and nothing else.
It would be like me looking at cartoon characters and commenting about how simplistic their designs are and writing off all cartoons because of that.
I'm comparing two very specific shows here to which you still have not answered to me how their main casts don't share more differences than similarities.
Because the discussion is about visual design, which encompasses more than just the characters.
I think your issue is that you don't actually understand anything about visual design despite trying to make that the main thrust of your argument.
And you straight up refuse to look at what's being talked about when I say character designs are same-y because I'm not talking about X, Y or Z.
You're the one who brought up visual design, are you now shifting to exclusively character design because you don't understand what visual design entails?
Since you're visually inept I'll spell it out for you using the main characters for both those shows as an example
>Linework on MC A (left) is much more rough compared to linework on MC B (right)
>MC B places more detail into the eyes than MC A
>MC A on the other hand places more detail in other facial features (Ears, nose)
>MC A's character design places more focus on minor details such as more intricate shading compared to MC B's outfit along with the holes and laces on his sneakers
>Just from a glance you can tell MC A is probably some chickenshit who's got nothing going for him while MC B is probably some hotheaded dork
Keep in mind I've haven't watched any of these shows before and am gathering all this just from these two pieces of key art.
try again anon
unrelated, but anime b***hes always come in various shapes and sizes and hair colors, so why are the dudes always so bland?
Because those types of male protagonists are meant to be self insertable, so they generally all have the same vein of japanese black hair/dark-ish eye color at least, even if the faces are more attractive by anime standards.
The girls simply need to be attractive, so they have more variety.
Since you asked so nicely
>Girl A (Left) uses simple two-tone shading with her design while Girl B (Right) uses three-tone shading
>Both characters have braids yet there is far more noticeable details with Girl B's braids.
>Like with the MCs examples, more physical details are present with the designs from Yofukashi no Uta than the ones from Maou-Sama in both body and outfit
I don't want to keep repeating myself, but these are both visually distinct shows if you spent more than two seconds looking at them.
B's braids are bigger and artists express size, depth and proximity with line weight and line thickness you utter boob
My point is that fundamentally these characters are shaped the same, regardless of eye colour, hairstyle or outfit, they still look like the same, bobble-headed, bug-eyed, slender porcelain dolls that so many female anime characters already fit the description of.
Pic related consists of only thirteen year olds and they manage to somehow look very distinct from one another in terms of shape, face and body. Granted, they aren't all attractive designs but there's still more variety here than in most anime.
Blah blah blah, the point is that anime looks better than burger toons
Why the frick do you browse a cartoon board if you truly hate toons this much?
Not him, but three things.
One, this board is also for comics.
Two, saying that you think anime looks better than cartoons doesn't mean you hate cartoons.
And lastly, notice that he specifically said burger (American) toons, not all western toons.
But the examples is a kid show with a very light hearted tone compared to more dramatic, or adult orientated shows.
>Moe anime characters all look Moe and unoriginal
No surprise.
But there's really not any variety in there compared to the whole of Anime. All those chars are flat noodly, uncomplicated and only really distinct in silhouette.
>has to go back 30 years to prove anime doesn't look same-y now
Anon, the image he replied to had Bobby from King of the Hill.
A show that originally aired 25 years ago.
The last ep of king of the hill was from 2010, that's at most 12 years ago. Meanwhile that chart has anime from the early 80s in it.
>The last ep of king of the hill was from 2010
Anon, the character was originally designed in 1997.
Or I guess 1996 since obviously the design was done prior to the show airing.
True, but regardless most of those characters were designed recently with one exception, meanwhile half of the shows on that list were from more than 15 years ago, being compared to shows that are 15 years their junior as evidence that anime NOW does not have a same-yness problem.
half of that chart is from the 2010s the rest are from the late 90s with the exception of Angel's Egg.
most of that chart is younger than king of the hill
They're flat because they're taken from mainly references or basic promotional images.
Western animation spends more money on writing and voice acting than the art/labour. The artists comparatively are low wage and disposable. The boomers in charge are out of touch with the artists who have talents. They just want money and use any emotion/gimmick that will make money.
I agree there, frick celebrity voice actors and the VA union in general. I hope AI replaces those buttholes, but you can't really do much about writers because at the end of the day AI can't create original writing. It could produce some shit scripts for filler but that's really it.
To be fair, the working conditions in Japanimation aren't much better. Plus they keep hiring such obvious celeb VAs like Hanezawa, that can literally only do one voice.
Holy KEK weebs btfo.
A wasted effort though, weeaboos suspend their disbelief to such unparalleled levels that they have long since convinced themselves that these are vastly different designs
I always know who doesn't watch anime because these are all really different characters with different personalities with different animation. My favorite is that collab that just has a siscon on it and they say he's generic.
Anyway, if you have enough time to complain that anime looks the same, surely the industry lurkers whining in this thread have enough time to create their own distinct art style outside CalArts, right...?
this is like holding up a crimson shirt, a maroon shirt, a garnet shirt, a currant shirt and a blood red shirt and saying they all look alike cause they are shades of red.
At the end of the day they're all forms of red, and the problem is that anime is like a shirt store that forgets it can sell other shirts that aren't derivatives of the colour red.
no dipshit, anime is more like it has a ton of different shades available of every color but your the homosexual going into the red section b***hing about how they all look the same but complaining that they have different names.
I'm being told this by a man who really wants to convince me that
are fundamentally different from one another. You're not exactly a good determiner for what's different and what's not.
Im not gonna say they're arent similarities but theres enough to see the two are different. Id argue american cartoons are more visually distinct from each other but it doesnt matter when the overall styles lack any real quality in their animation on average.
Most anime don't have any real quality in their animations either, unless you're going to start telling me them putting dramatic lighting over their characters, or setting a filter to indicate the character is talking in the afternoon, is "quality animation".
Its more than fricking cartoons tend to do you dribbling mouth breather.
Amphibia, Owl House, Steven Universe and Infinity Train all use those mood and or dramatic lighting depending on the scene too.
I fricking know that. My problem is those are few and far in between.
because cartoons are more genuine with their presentation, pal
What the crispy frick does that even mean?
It's higher quality art than anything the west shits out. If you don't care about the integrity of visuals and your idea of entertainment is just to stare at objects in constant motion then I'd get preferring cartoons. But you could just pull up your windows screen saver for free.
anime won't compare to the best paintings, if all that mattered was how pretty it looked then why are you analyzing art? animation is about (e)motion, or as nietzche would put it, the peak Dionysian artform
>anime won't compare to the best paintings
Anon, I don't know if you know this, but a singular painting is not animation.
Comparing a masterful painting to a completely different medium is a brainlet cope. And if you want emotion, anime conveys them deeper than American cartoons ever have. It plays on a viewers emotions using the exact kind of atmospheric scene framing that this thread is about. You can only get that in expensive movies in America.
anime really can't with MOTION, they can frame shots but the game and watch animation just hampers the effect.
most american animation is about the same in terms of animation. anime generally gets better with scenes that require it like action scenes.
true but i see more people getting invested in romance than action lately
That's more because American animation doesn't have much to offer when it comes to action outside of stuff like Primal, TMNT, and Ninjago.
It's not that people stopped wanting action in favor of romance, it's just that the majority of the people still heavily invested in cartoons at the moment are shippers who are only interested in romance.
go frick yourself, here's some proof to shove up your ass
I want to shove my proof up her ass
you don't have any proof dumbass.
They absolutely can and do with motion. The problem is Americans are always operating emotionally at full throttle. It's always something I've hated about us, because it's obnoxious. You're clearly just not a contemplative person so you always need emotional stimulation like so many other overgrown children in this kindergarten country. Even if those emotions are purely surface level and fleeting like the constant wacky exaggeration of cartoons.
modern Spongebob is the PERFECT example of what I want to use to agree with you anon. Everyone knows what I'm talking about right? Like it's undoubtedly fluid and there's definite talent there in the animation but its WAY too emotive and quick, nothing sticks to let the exaggerated takes on the characters have any proper focus.
Just compare old spongebob to the new stuff, the old stuff gave you way more time to digest what you were looking at even if it wasn't particularly deep.
I wouldn't say it's autism, it's just that a lot of Japanese communication is implied, non verbal, and requires everyone to "read the air." Because they value contemplativeness and reflection. That kind of thing is hard to understand for us foreigners, who rely on things being said and approached plainly. So when people say anime isn't as emotive or animated as much as cartoons, I always think, yeah, no shit. That's just how the Japanese are.
I fricking hate americans so much, why are they so obnoxious? Whenever I go to the store I almost have a panic attack because people are so casual being loud
>why are they so obnoxious?
Speaking from personal experience, a lot of Americans have a habit of thinking that being loud, obnoxious, and annoying is a replacement for having a personality.
Basically, imagine Mabel from Gravity Falls, but in her mid-20s.
That's not too uncommon in America, especially nowadays.
Man Im American and I get you 200% I work at a grocery store and I experience that shit daily.
I don't know, I'm a pretty serious person until I'm specifically trying to goof off. People didn't used to always be on this way. Growing up in the 90's people were so much more calm and patient and polite. Even the teenagers were moody instead of loud.
Yes
Im the exact same way most of the time. Like I know theres a time and place for everything, and people today seem to not know that basic rule.
Sorry to hear that anon, it gets pretty miserable, and I say that as someone who's technically an extrovert. It's just beyond the pale at this point, like we're reaching the great stupidity singularity.
You can't just imply things to westerners. That's too hard to think about. See pic related.
jesus frick where did they get that study group from, ACTUAL Springfield?
I lived a lot of my life underestimating the pure drooling stupidity of the average American. Like I knew we weren't very bright, I always heard the jokes about our shit education here. But I know better now. Maybe the shitty 3/4 view sitcom layout style is really the most we deserve.
You knew the small bubble you were around wasn't very bright, and you assumed your family wasn't very bright becomes mommy didn't love you.
or you're a larping eurocuck. Either way, die.
Holy kek how could I forget about the fragile egos too
That image makes me sad.
it legit sounds like comments an actual moron would sayif asked why they like the Simpsons like even a CHILD should have a more nuanced opinion on it than THAT.
>You can't just imply things to westerners. That's too hard to think about. See pic related.
This is something that frightens me about working in the western entertainment industry. It kinda sucks that I'd have to dumb down certain expressions or make them more explicit for people to catch on.
I see it all the time in movies, tv, animation, games, etc. There's so many scenes where an idea that was already implied is then explicitly expressed.
The inability to perceive subtlety or ambiguity is hurting our media and our collective intelligence. Everyone wants things to be explained to them.
Probably the most famous example of this is the idea of 'Ma' Hideo Miyazaki talks about in one of his interviews.
Hideo Kojima is another example of this, it's an aspect of him I really appreciate. He has such a wide range of taste and curiosity in media and he's constantly posting about all the books and films he's going through. And it shows in his works, they're always so dense with fresh ideas.
While on one hand I agree the comparison is unfair, there's still the point to be made that western animation is lacking.
The shows I listed are very few and far between.
The real focus of the thread shouldn't even be comparing East vs West imo, it should be asking internal questions like why something like Arcane, Spider-Verse, or Invincible can exist yet we keep getting stuff that looks like TOH and Amphibia.
Because concepts like composition and lighting aren't limited by the media you're using to make a show, whether it's 2D or 3D the kind of cinematography we saw in Arcane and ITSV should be possible elsewhere, but it's like there's zero cross-pollination between the film and tv animation industries.
Both are animation, but there are enough distinctions in the way the two are created and what the final products look like for them to have their own distinct categorization.
thats the biggest peeve I have with cartoons, its way too "tell dont show" cause they think the tell part is not only required because in their eyes it would bee unnoticeable, but also the tell part is "funny"
>The inability to perceive subtlety or ambiguity is hurting our media and our collective intelligence
It's the other way around. Our media has been feeding us the cheapest slop they can get away with, to the lowest common denominator, for decades. Because it makes money. Reality tv is an especially heinous culprit. It shapes the collective conscious, expectations, trends, standards. And our public education system has been steadily declining since the 60's. Lack of critical thinking, discipline and self reflection makes subtlety and ambiguity difficult to understand. We are a failing empire.
>It kinda sucks that I'd have to dumb down certain expressions or make them more explicit for people to catch on.
Anime is basically entirely literally this. American animation is probably one of the best examples of subtlety. Cmon.
give one example
All of Disney's catalogue. Btfos all anime in character acting by a mile and it takes an ability to be subtle to pull it off. Even our television animation is better at it.
Every single clip on sakugabooru with "character acting" is either completely unnatural or exaggerated even if it's just a character walking. Miyazaki and iso are probably the only two examples of animators that can pull off realistic and subtle emotional performances.
Verification not required
anon...the fact you think that about the "character acting" sakuga on sakugabooru and also think DISNEY is more subtle, shows you are denser than a white dwarf.
https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/143036
https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/143037
https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/143038
Milt kahls work on tigger is one of the best examples. He managed to convey the squish and folding of a stuffed animal, including the spring in his tail and stretching tiggers body without it looking unnatural and still keeping his form. That takes an incredible amount of subtlety to handle all of his parts individually and make it look natural. Every single piece of him has movement. It's not just a model doing an action it has parts that have to be controlled properly.
A lot of american animation does this. That's why our stuff is normally animated more with less static shots. The character acting is pretty much the main thing we give a shit about over here. That's why our character designs are so fricking weird because putting emphasis on what makes individual people different is important. And being able to handle that many different individual personalities convincingly takes subtlety. A lot of our characters don't even move the same. It's a lot harder than taking standard anime boy with new haircut #61234 and having him go "NANI?!" with a small mouth instead of a big one or flying all over the place on screen. Changing an eyeshape so kirigiri doesn't look like shokutoho isn't subtlety. Japanese cartoons Excell in cinematography and how they approach their drama. A lot of their characters can be pretty indistinguishable from one another. Same with their character acting.
Find anything in Japan's catalogue that can match even one one of the nine old men in skill set.
Anon....Im talking mostly about tv and like even more specifically CURRENT SHIT.
Of course stuff made the NINE OLD MEN is going to be GOD TIER! They're the whole fricking REASON I have faith in our industry in the first place!
> using an example from a movie when the comparison was between episodic shows
lol, why not use another movie as a comparison then
https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/34715
Be serious
Disney movies literally have musical numbers that blatantly tell you everything about a character.
Not that such a thing is bad, but it’s it subtle at all.
Anime has a far wider range.
You’re never getting something like Sonny Boy on tv over here.
i know that feel bro
oh you mean like how in anime you can tell how characters in a group are feeling based on their positions and distance relative to each other and if they are slumped or hunched forward even with no dialogue?
Yes exactly this.
If you haven't seen it Dynazenon was a show that made great use of body language in this way.
Certain character relationships can only be understood if you can read that.
There are still plenty of original anime getting made, they're obviously not the majority since studios need to make ends meet with adaptations, but they're still doing fine with the originals.
And even the stuff they adapt isn't all bad, there's tons of great source material from manga to novels and so on that get adapted into good anime.
america is the ADHD capital of the world, japan is the autism capital
ADHD never makes anything good, but autism can lead to specialized focus minds sometimes.
Americans have generation spanning lead poisoning, which is diagnosed as various mental illness.
Lul you're already talking about things that are better than what today's animation workers can do. Totally not seeing the goal posts here.
I posted some of my drawings and got yelled at by shills for using filters, as if they were afraid of using filters while working on cartoons.
I mean, yea, those character designs and visual styles are clearly different.
How is this any different from someone saying that Owl House and Amphibia look the same?
We don't have an entire trope for it like
There's only like maybe three brown girls that are MCs as of right now
Being brown is not a trope.
>We don't have an entire trope for it like
try again anon
That would require you to have enough cartoons being made for it to become one to begin with, and not like...maybe a dozen shows a year.
Well that's the thing I can at least appreciate about toons. It's a lot more close-knit and less mass produced than anime is.
>It's a lot more close-knit
Uhh...are you trying to imply that an incestuous industry full of nepotism is a good thing?
as opposed to a literal monoculture like japan? face it, we relate more with Hollywood israelites than japs, the chinamen have completely different philosophy from us westerners
>face it, we relate more with hollywood israelites
I'm not white, speak for yourself there m8.
I dunno about you, but I don't watch shows, play games, listen to music, read books, or generally consume media so I can engage in endless neverending discussion about a show with other autists online.
If I want to discuss a show I like, I'll do that, and when the show ends, most of that discussion will end with it.
I enjoyed the hell out of Chernobyl threads on Cinemaphile and the various memes it produced, but I would NEVER want there to be an endless Chernobyl General full of annoying cancerous morons and spergs who didn't get enough attention from their parents and need to substitute it with anonymous online attention.
>I'm not white
I'm so sorry anon
I feel like anyone who browses an imageboard for some amount of time generally wants to discuss the shows they're watching, even if it IS with a bunch of autists.
If that be the case, then I would rather have a community that still loves and talks about shows well after they ended then one that cycles through them every season, leaving no room for discussion after they've finished airing.
>I feel like anyone who browses an imageboard for some amount of time generally wants to discuss the shows they're watching, even if it IS with a bunch of autists.
Sure, but eventually those shows END.
That's the point, I don't want to sit around discussing the same 5 or 6 shows, spamming shipping fanfics and generally acting like an autistic tween.
I'm autistic, but I'm not THAT fricking autistic.
>then I would rather have a community that still loves and talks about shows well after they ended then one that cycles through them every season
And that's how you end up with Cinemaphile, where most of the board is template threads, fandom wars, shipping threads, waifu wars, twitter posting, politics shitflinging, etc. etc.
It's also why various cartoons have been banished to /trash/.
It's much better to have a revolving door of content coming out that gives people new things to discuss. I like The Sopranos, but I don't want to talk about The Sopranos for 20 fricking years.
Non-autistic people eventually get tired of that shit.
True, but I think there's enough stuff coming out plus a big enough pool that the discussion doesn't feel like it overstays its welcome. Unless it's entire fanbase is made up of turboautists who can't pace themselves properly with timing between threads coughcoughcomfysouthparkcoughcough.
I meant that more as in the pool of shows to talk about is smaller, meaning discussion sticks around for longer and we don't get things like FOTMs.
One of these black haired sword toting heroes is from Sword Art Online, right?
The only thing separating all these characters from being able to be put in the same show is the coloring. Literally everyone one of them could be on screen together and I wouldn't notice anything off.
The hair highlights are also drawn differently and the shapes on the left character are more triangular and sharp while the character on the right has more broad rectangular shapes.
The clavicle and SCM are also included on the left and not on the right.
But these are differences only someone who's familiar with anime or who has a solid understanding of artistic drawing fundamentals would pick out, just like how I said the same for cartoons here
When I say unfamiliar I don't mean with just these shows, but cartoons in general.
So the average Japanese man is able to project more easily.
When I was talking about the webm my take away was that it was focusing on showing compositions, shot choices and staging.
That is all stuff you only find out from actually watching a show. That is what I was talking about.
As for design it really isn't similar, even in that webm. The differences in anime design are often subtle but they become very noticeable if you actually watch anime.
But even then you still have many designers who's art is much more distinct.
It's similar to how people ignorantly make the 'calarts style' complaint when those shows also have their distinct looks.
OP only mentioned shot compositions and lighting. Why are you shifting the goalpost?
That's not a laziness thing school designs are standardized nation wide in Japan, it's not like the US.
They have specific rules like having their hallways are put on the right side of the classrooms and so on.
Also that's just a dumb complaint, you could say the same thing about all the American shows for putting lockers on the walls.
It's not really distinct if you have to watch so much of it to notice the differences, from a quick glance, anime generally looks very same-y.
Also no one is forcing anime to make hundreds of shows based in highschool and middle school, there are plenty of other locations you can center your cast around.
>from a quick glance, anime generally looks very same-y.
But that also applies to many cartoons.
From a quick glance someone who doesn't watch cartoons would struggle to tell the difference between Amphibia and The Owl House.
>Amphibia and The Owl House.
Perhaps, but when you look at a catalogue like
that all aired relatively close to one another, then you realize that only really holds true for those two shows specifically.
Unfortunately that's quite a weak catalogue considering it spans ~7 years.
And as previously mentioned, shows like Invincible, The Owl House, and Summer Camp Island all have shows that they look similar to, not even including Primal since Genndy's shows all look similar, for obvious reasons.
That's still more variety in looks than what can be given anime credit for.
Not really.
Just over the last 5 or so years, there's
>Odd Taxi
>Pop Team Epic
>Made in Abyss
>Call of the Night
>Kingdom
>Beastars
>Ousama Ranking
>Fire Force
All of which look pretty distinct from one another. And that's not to mention the absolute frickload of short-form series, stop motion shows, puppetry shows like Thunderbolt Fantasy, etc. etc.
It's weak because it, again, spans 7 years.
>It's weak because it, again, spans 7 years.
>Summer Camp Island 4 years ago
>primal 3 years ago
>The Owl House 2 years ago
>The Cuphead Show this year
>Hilda 4 years
>lego monkey kid 2 years ago
>Rise of tmnt 4 years ago
>invincible 1 year ago
So yours isn't weak because it's spans 5 years?
The vast majority of anime isn't made up of furries nor Ghibli wannabees, these are very much exceptions to the rule.
One of those is literally a battle shounen m8.
>It's a weak catalogue because i said so
>But that also applies to many cartoons.
Not it doesn't
The literal philosophy of western animation is that things should look visually distinct
>Not it doesn't
Oh cool, so if I showed someone 5 distinct DCAU animated movies from around the same time period they'd be able to easily tell them all apart?
>an animation company that makes DC cape shit has an artstyle they stick with
wow anon you really destroyed my argument
That stems from wanting to make the cartoons in japan relatable to its auidence. Much like how companies here in America demand the main characters are almost always kids. Hell that's WHY Anne and her friends were de-aged in Amphibia even though given bits of context it would make more sense for them to be 15-16 instead of the 13-14 they are in canon.
Even so, Amphibia took place mostly in a frog fantasy setting despite the characters' age. I'm just saying that your main casts age shouldn't be an excuse to stick them in school 90% of the time.
Thats something that comes from Japanese culture. I can see what you mean but Im personally not bothered by it.
>That stems from wanting to make the cartoons in japan relatable to its auidence
Isn't a sizeable chunk of the anime audience past high school age?
>Uhhmm I think so? I havent bothered to check stats
>Also no one is forcing anime to make hundreds of shows based in highschool and middle school
That's what the market wants and money makes decisions at the end of the day, also there's a lot of cultural reasons for it stemming from the stress of Japanese adult life, etc.
I didn't have to watch much to notice the differences.
When you watch something like Pokemon or Sono Bisque Doll and then watch a show like Gundam or Ghost in the shell you're not gonna confuse any of them.
The art styles are very distinct.
The proportions of the character's facial features, the level of anatomical accuracy, head to height ratios, linework, shapes, gestures, color choices, costume designs, etc.
> devil is a part timer and overlord are samey
holy kek
outside the skeleton protag, they do
quit coping there bud
The western equivalents suffer from the exact same problem, and arguably worse because even some of the most average SoL comedy anime will at least have some scenes that are animated with effort usually to enhance a joke or the feeling of a scene.
I can't say the same for western equivalents. Nobody is talking about some cool animation highlight they saw in rick and morty or Bojack Horseman because there are none, but they'll bring up scenes from similar anime because they put the effort in there.
https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/181482
This cut has more angle and shot variation than you'll see in any of the shows I mentioned
https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/181492
This one is a scene where the animation is stylized to enhance a character's reaction.
https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/184126
The beginning of this shot expresses the character's feelings with just showing their legs and the lighting conveys the mood well here.
Have you actually watched all of those or are you assuming?
>Have you actually watched all of those or are you assuming?
see
>Nobody is talking about some cool animation highlight they saw in rick and morty or Bojack Horseman
Different philosophies anon. Both those shows are popular for reasons having frickall to do with animation
even the coen brothers and guys like roger deakins use simple shot-reverse shot all the time alongside much more complex and beautiful shots,
it seems a bit nitpicky to pick only basic/staple shots from every show here. why not show the best shots from every show here instead?
not every shot needs to be breathtaking, some just need to work.
After watching Ashita no Joe I realized just how fricking GARBAGE every other anime was in comparison. I'm so glad joe opened my eyes so that I could avoid this garbage.
OP BTFO
not really. those are standard blocking and framing thats done in ALL forms of media, not just anime.
All modern anime could be the exact same show
>did you know anime uses SIDESHOTS
The point is not that it uses side shots, but that anime does that better on top of using other angles.
OP btfo
Stupid argument, cartoons also have plenty of perspective shots and anime has plenty of flat shots
Amphibia has better visual storytelling than like 90% of seasonal shit nowadays, frick off back to Cinemaphile
Rise of TMNT and Lego MMonkey kid mogs any fricking moronic anime out the fricking water
Only if you're like, an unironic white supremacist who gets legit scared at the idea of something made by non-white people being better than something made by white people.
Blame Hanna-Barbera
How many east vs west threads will we have until you people finally run out of things to talk about
>the composition of the vast majority is done in the sitcom style
Maybe that's intentional, since most western stuff is basically animated sitcoms? Also might be some cultural hangup but cartoons seem very reluctant to do close-up shots of just a single character talking (unless it's for some funny face gag)
I'm gonna use this clip from "Hajime no Ippo" to show something. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUrQ9c6y2SQ
Look how we have that super slowed down buildup with Eagle's (blond dude) fist goes in for a punch and then a super snappy punch to show the speed of it at 21 seconds in, not to mention to the foley sound used for it to emphasize the weight and force behind it. The glimmer and shine from the overhead stadium lights that we see on the characters and shining down from the top of the screen itself. Listen to that sound used for Takamura's punch at the 53 second mark, Im not knowledgeable enough to know exactly what that is, but it sounds like a sort of engine revving up which helps to illustrate the visual tension of seeing his punch moving towards Eagle but also the power in it, That crunch as he hits Eagle in the face 1:23 is perfect.
Theres also at the very beginning we see the POV of Eagle with his boxing gloves taking up a good chunk of the left and right of the screen. If theres anything of this caliber in American stuff I want to see it.
This is lame as shit, but those sounds are great.
The music and voiceover are overkill, though.
I feel like anyone that says "anime look the same" doesnt watch anime I dont know Ive never had that issue even shit done by the same studio. I can tell something done by KyoAni apart from another KyoAni show.
The differences are subtle and not grand enough to say that each show looks distinct from one another.
i mean there are things that have to look similar because they are what make anime anime but yeah if you actually care about it they are all vastly different
I do see merit in american designs being generally more visually distint from each other. However my issue is the animation is so usually stitled, consistently fluid, yet that fluidity is rigid and not very high quality, anime has lower lows in terms of animation quality (super close ups with just moving mouths for actual animation and sometimes not even that in even more close up shots that last for seconds during monologues either external or internal) BUT anime has higher highs as they cut corners during less important scenes to heighten the animation for dramatic scenes be it action or comedy or well...drama. American animation is consistent throughout an entire episode, characters will move entirely when talking and rarely stay entirely still during scenes however it never really gets higher than that outside of relatively rare moments. To put it simply, anime is like a rollercoaster whereas American cartoons are like a mostly flat go kart track
OP here, I want to make it clear I made this cause I want american cartoons to be better, to grow past the mindset of animation is just for kids, its that shit that breeds laziness and complacency since "its just for this dumb homosexuals we raise they dont care" that shit is WHY we see more and more anime referenes in our shows and why I see people on here b***hing about on Cinemaphile because kids are looking for more impactful material and for the most part they are finding it IN anime, as see in many staff members in current cartoons.I KNOW it can be better, because anime has shown it can, our past films, theatrical shorts and a lot of cartoons from yesteryear and relatively recent hve from time to time shown that kind quality can exist. Our culture has it own strengths that anime doesnt have and I want that to be even further heightened by a more passionate industry.
stop pretending you're op you moron
If I was trying to say I was OP wouldnt I have said some shitty comment with little thought or effort put into it to mock this thread?
underrated comedy genius post
Do kids even watch anime? Like, kids under 10 and such? A lot of cartoons are there to fill the niche of "dumb kid-friendly entertainment", something you could leave on the TV in a pediatric lobby
Considering their parents watch it and are thus likely to introduce them to it More people that are of parent age with young kids watch anime since the kids that grew up during the anime boom are now old enough to have kids of their own. Id say yeah they do but I dont have any stats to back it up, so to answer you, I personally would say yes but I cant say it with adamant proof.
I phrased it poorly, I meant, do you think kids would like anime if they saw it? Would they be properly entertained?
Recent western shows like SU, TOH, and Amphibia tried to ape anime by having episodic storylines and dramatic moments that required dozens of episodes of buildup. Which is neat IMO but it stops being a show where a kid could stumble onto it for 5 minutes and think "this is neat" with 0 context, unlike something like Spongebob
It depends on what they watch, I think if you introduced a 6 year old from America and a 6 year old from Japan who'd never watched much cartoons period to say Dragon Ball or Demon Slayer or One Piece they'd both love them, maybe for diffferent reasons due to cultural differences but I think yeah kids here would. The problem with SU, TOH, Amphibia is that the industry they are made and controlled by do not respect them, which negatively limits what they can do and are allowed to put into their plots and plot structures. one example being the Hexside focus in S1 of Owl House which we know was forced by executive meddling.
I got into DBZ and One Piece via cable TV since there wasn't anything else good on the same time slot, and both of them felt pretty slow at times
Kids today have so many more options though, being able to watch whatever they want whenever they want (plus there's competition from the near-unlimited content on YT) so I wonder if they'd be able to get into it
are those problems because the kids dont like them or is it because the american animation industry doesnt correctly advertise, market, and properly air the shows in ways that makes them interesting? It all rolls back frm the point that "animation is for kids" and thus we cant and SHOULDNT make shows anything more than episodic funnies cause otherwise kids wont be able to follow anything more complicated cause they are moronic.
Idealistically speaking, I'd love if more cartoons were for audiences outside of kids (and that adult animation would be more than just edgy comedies), but the whole point of most cartoons getting made in the first place is to get ratings and be profitable. Like it doesn't matter that Sym-Bionic Titan had some decently choreographed scenes, what *did* matter was it couldn't hawk merchandise
which was bullshit cause they didnt even fricking TRY to merchandise from what I remember.
If it's an entertaining show kids will watch it.
Just put some cool animation and eye catching stuff in there.
I used to just watch random episodes of shows with storylines like Teen Titans, Ben 10, or Transformers growing up. I loved and enjoyed watching through those series just because they looked cool, kids are smart enough to pick up on information and put it together as they go along.
It's how they live after all, they spend the first 10 years of their life just doing that with the world, it's only adults who think kids are stupid for some reason.
>Which is neat IMO but it stops being a show where a kid could stumble onto it for 5 minutes and think "this is neat" with 0 context, unlike something like Spongebob
I don't think kids are as picky in that regard as you think they are.
This might have been a mild issue back when we were kids when I might run into a random episode of Pokemon at 8 AM and not know what the frick is going on, but even then that didn't stop me from watching it and enjoying the hell out of it.
Nowadays it's even less of an issue since any kid can see a show like that, watch a random episode, and if they enjoy it go check out whatever streaming service their parents have and go watch it in order there.
The last cartoon I can think of with interesting staging was Ballmasterz 9001 and that was cancelled. Trying to push cartoons to new heights is only temporary since good stuff never lasts.
Dont remind me of Ballmastrz anon, we didn't deserve Ballmastrz.
OP here, and might I add: FRICK anime, frick weebs, and frick e-girlshit pedophiles
>thread is about visual design between cartoons and anime
>anons point out that anime tends to have boring shitty and samey visual design
>nooooo you have to actually sit through and watch every one to know that they don't have samey visual design
Why dont you jackasses saying anime sucks actually offer up some visually interesting composition shots from our cartoons then?
do morons unironically think these two look the s
I like how Owl House bothers to give characters more defined leg shapes, its a nice little detail.
Yes? Are you not an artist? Same leg shape and height, some facial structure, same eye placement, they're animated the same. Changing the color palette is not enough to make them distinct.
hmm I agree with you but the leg shape is different, humans in Amphibia have noodle shaped legs where in TOH they are more realistic comparatively.
this is my problem, they are all standing on the same imaginary line at a flat line that runs straight across the screen. if you drew a line across the bottom of their feet it would almost be perfectly flat and run parallel to the bottom of the shot.
You only notice the differences because you're familiar with them.
Anyone unfamiliar with cartoons is gonna think these are the same. It's just like how you aren't familiar with anime so you don't notice the differences in those designs.
People who aren't familiar with cartoons won't see the differences between these two because of how subtle the differences are.
Both characters are roughly 4 heads tall, that alone is enough for most people to think they're similar, they both use very simple circular eye shapes and the only difference in the noses is that Amphibia's don't have shadows. The c-shaped line at the corner of their smiles and the round jawlines and simple c shaped ears are also negligible differences to an untrained eye.
It doesn't matter that TOH puts a visible nose ridge between eyes in 3/4 view or that TOH's limbs are thicker and slightly more anatomically accurate or that Amphibia characters have huge hands because to the untrained eye these details are negligible.
I have never watched these shows before i can tell that these two are different just by the character design alone
Anon, you're on Cinemaphile.
Even I can tell the difference because those two shows get spammed here constantly and have extremely autistic fanbases that had some dumb gay rivalry with one another.
You could say the same for the cookie cutter designs on Cinemaphile so what's the point? My parents think every anime is Pokemon or some shit. You can only tell the difference between the moeblobs because you're use to it.
Anon, please re-read all of the posts in that reply chain.
How do you miss the point so hard that you literally reiterate the point that was being made to you without even noticing it?
2003 FMA is better than Brotherhood. Even if the ending is shit, both endings were shit.
American animation would be unstoppable if it adopted even a few anime techniques.
Got any specific techniques in mind? I personally would LOVE to see more use of low and high frame rates for comedic moments. that stuff where a very sudden break in a moment to showcase character reactions to something another character did that was absurd. Or for a high frame example, making something super dramatic and drawn out when its just two characters playing a board game but we tons of focus is put on them playing their pieces are moving around a game board or picking a card etc.
lego monkey kid and rise of tmnt already do that and it mogs every anime
this probably low hanging fruit but being visually distinct isnt always a plus if it isnt actually appealing, Im talking of course the new show Dead End Paranormal Park which imo has AWFUL characters design.
Hey OP I made that exact post in another thread a couple days ago. As expected though the thread would rather devolve into the same cookie cutter Cinemaphile vs Cinemaphile debate we get every week because you put anime bait in the op.
Artists in the industry have very little technical ability to draw cool camera work in the first place, I know many animators and they can only draw well in their specific comfort zone. Ask them to try forced or fisheye perspective and they'll have a breakdown. I think the only studio who can even come close is Flying Bark and they're Aussies. Even if you got rid of the inflated production cost, replaced the shitty visual directors, and stopped the practice of forcing onto one person jobs that should be done by several people, you'll still end up with shows that fall back on the ole 3/4 puppet slapped on a background because the talent just isn't there. Our art schools are a joke with no barriers to entry, they're just places to network. At least the French still try, they really should be the center of western animation if it were merit based.
your post is what gave me the idea to make this in the first place, it reminded of my personal gripes I have with our animation industry as a whole. I do think we are slowly tiptoeing out of the slump we've been forced into though.
This guy
is right, it's a pretty modern problem. Look at a show like Hey Arnold for instance, there are beautiful shots in that series. The pigeonman flying away was an iconic scene most people remember well, even the opening theme song had fantastic shots framed from above or far away, playing with shadows and such. We hit this era of cheap production around 2007 where every studio jumped on the adobe flash bandwagon, cartoons became puppet shows, and all the different practices became standardized to avoid financial risk taking. Shows like adventure time merged the simple look with more traditional animation and we've been stuck in that rut till now. I commend Flying Bark for taking on new experimental styles and incorporating some basic anime techniques to mix things up. It's a shame the shows they did weren't very popular. That isn't their fault though. And love it or hate it, there's some hope to be found in hazbin hotel and helluva boss, or at least their popularity potentially setting a new trend.
There's a lot that's wrong with no easy solution. The new blood among cartoon writers is a whole other problem. Then there's the death of tv, and youtubers monopolizing the cartoon age demographics. But if you want to be positive about it that means it should logically concentrate more talent into more focused cartoon productions over time.
>We hit this era of cheap production around 2007 where every studio jumped on the adobe flash bandwagon
I know this is going to sound played out, but I blame shit like Johnny Test.
Less so because of its (admittedly largely pretty poor) quality and more because it was cheap as frick to produce considering the viewers it could draw in.
Honestly, that entire era of Canadian animation from like 2006 to 2012 had a lot of kind of forgettable shows that aired in America like Yin Yang Yo, Chop Socky Chooks, Rickey Sprocket, George of the Jungle, Total Drama I don't care what anyone says, that show was junk, and Scaredy Squirrel.
Most people who were old enough to see that shift happen, and understand that it was happening, would agree with you. Some shows made it work, like I was genuinely fond of Mucha Lucha myself, it was memorable and punchy with a lot of loving character ideas and bizarre unique scenarios. It was animated in flash but it made up for that shit animation with a shitton of creativity. That creativity really dried up fast by the turn of the decade to be replaced by safe and saccharine. If we have to put up with cutesy safe and sweet shipping shows with girly protagonists and low stakes, they could at least be genuinely cute like hamtaro or magical do-re-mi. But Americans are bad at making things cute without forcing it. Peep and the big wide world was cute. Turn those little bastards into humans and do some world building and add a villain and I'd watch it unironically.
I hope you're not someone actually in the industry and are just some dumbass posing as one cause frick this sounds self absorbed and whiny.
It's pretty obvious that people here don't care about the quality of western animation
Since none of you actually care to discuss the actual root cause of it's decline
Japanese animation has a safety net to rely on when getting their shows produced
Since they're mostly adaptations of already popular or well known works
They have a fanbase already eager to watch it and buy shit from them
Compared to western productions which are usually original and creators have to basically convince these higher ups to even take a look at your idea for a show
And when they do it's usually low budget
Or maybe if you're lucky enough they'll pick up your pilot from youtube
There is also no mention of any western animated films or adapted works at all because they tend to actually be of higher quality than tv animation
>Compared to western productions which are usually original and creators have to basically convince these higher ups to even take a look at your idea for a show
>And when they do it's usually low budget
This why always prefer western cartoon than anime
why though? they have low budget because of out of touch, solely focused on profit despite having enough finance to easily survive multiple catastrophic failures, and stubborn executives.
What about ANY of that made western cartoons more preferable to anime?
Western animation would be in a better place if they adapted games.
Arcane and Castlevania are a great examples of that.
In the west our comics industry is dead and kids/teens aren't really reading as much.
Gaming however has much more active and larger fanbases to profit off of.
If western animation companies would adapt games into shows they'd probably be pretty successful.
But the other issue is that a lot of the most popular games have a lot of content that wouldn't fly on most programming blocks.
A company like Disney or Nickelodeon isn't going to back an epic action series with killing and controversial religious themes like Assassin's Creed or Halo for their channels. That's one of the advantages that anime has.
They may be able to get onto streaming though.
Daily Lives of highschool boys, Prison School.
THIS. Just do an animated cartoon adaption of KH with Disney staff, doesnt even have to follow the games just do like SoL stuff with the huge cast, Mario and Zelda are now so much more developed as franchises to earn a huge budget to make a damn good animated adaption from their 80s cartoon adaptions. Or hell do one of Halo, like an actual GOOD and more importantly ANIMATED show. you could literally take Resident Evil 1 and make it a short series since its confined to one giant ass interior location.
Or hell take Cyberpunk 2077 and take the visuals and world building from the game (you know the stuff that could work in an animated adaption) put into a cartoon like arcane. or frick Deus Ex is fricking perfect given its plots.
>Or hell take Cyberpunk 2077 and take the visuals and world building from the game (you know the stuff that could work in an animated adaption) put into a cartoon like arcane.
Too late for that one.
>Castlevania
Were the numbers good? People just seemed to b***h about it on the internet. Rad fight scenes though
https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/155948
idk, just named it because it seemed really popular.
Castlevania did well enough to get like 3 seasons and a new series.
That said, I kinda tuned out after season 2, it seemed like it really desperately wanted to be Game of Thrones, which is a baffling decision for a fricking Castlevania property.
Not on the level of that new Resident Evil show, but still baffling.
>which is a baffling decision for a fricking Castlevania property
I mean it's pretty out there, but that's the issue with vidya adaptations of games that are light on the story. Unless you're doing something like Silent Hill 2, it's usually some (mostly) mute protagonist going around killing shit so the writers have to fill in the blanks
More people in the industry should realize that western animation shouldn't have to rely on Disney or Nick in order to back a project
That's a problem too, America in particular needs independent animation studios.
Rooster Teeth could've been the spark that changed everything with RvB and RWBY, but they didn't capitalize on it and everything they've made since has been garbage.
It's something I want to try doing soon, I think there's potential there.
I was really inspired by Worthikids and animation is easier for anyone to hop into now more than ever with all the digital software around.
This is the most important change that needs to happen here. Disney, Nickelodeon, CN, Hasbro, all these companies hold back the creator's original vision too much and the result is a watered-down story that can still be good, just not amazing or ground-breaking.
this too is an issue that resulted in this mess. the people in charge of these networks are out of touch old morons, or sometimes young morons, but still all effectively morons outside of the one thing they do well as a suit.
It's more like they are afraid of taking risks and losing money, because people just want to see more of the thing they already like
And if you aren't making them big bucks then you're worthless
can someone kill them? Where's unexpected stairway-chan when you need em?
>Western animation would be in a better place if they adapted games.
They do. You can find quite a lot of animated video game adaptations on paheal :^)
>Since none of you actually care to discuss the actual root cause of it's decline
Which is the decline in television and the push to get more shows onto streaming. Which is why shows that are more "experimental" like Arcane, Castlevania, even some of the goofier ones like Centaurworld are online.
>Japanese animation has a safety net to rely on when getting their shows produced
>They have a fanbase already eager to watch it and buy shit from them
God damn, I don't want to believe this, but it's the only way to explain stuff like pic related getting adapted while Magic Children Doing Things is in limbo
>It’s another east vs west thread
Let’s just admit both cartoons and anime have their flaws and merits. There’s some great looking anime like MIA and then there’s this
>
I personally believe are both shit in their own unique ways. It's just that the grass is greener on the other side because all these E vs W threads are all on Cinemaphile. Cinemaphile snipes them on sight.
Something tells me this post is aimed less at the person you replied to and more at someone else.
well cartoons are for children
But anon, Americans are children no matter what their age
>Something I cant stand in American animation currently is that the composition of the vast majority is done in the sitcom style
That seems to be more of a budget/deadline issue with the networks, I mean western animation on streaming tends to have better direction and animation because they actually have quite a lot of time and not as much episodes to produce compared to TV cartoons which are like 20 episodes that air every few months
What purpose does having the type of composition anime has really serve exactly?
Like if you just have two characters talking why would you have the scene be more complex to draw if it doesn't really convey anything
Like in one of OPs examples
What is that classroom trying to convey?
It doesn't really look that visually interesting in my opinion
What difference would it make if it weren't drawn in another angle?
>What purpose does having the type of composition anime has really serve exactly?
Drama and good atmosphere.
But the thing is, these are film techniques.
Cartoons in the west are basically unserious comedies with no need for drama, seriousness, mature shading/angles or cinematographic effect.
I remember this, anime is done like a film in a 3d space while cartoons are done like theater, everything has to face towards the audience (3/4s angle you know "never show your back to the audience" that shit).
But that's my point
If it doesn't serve a purpose or adds to the overall scene then what's the point of doing it
Other than just doing it for the sake of doing it
Or because you "just liked how it looked"
I'm just saying it's not a good justification for it especially when it can be done a lot better to convey the message more
sometimes you do things just cause it looks good in art man. Come on thats basic shit. Like artists just do a scene shot differently cause it looks good, youd know that if you studied any film made in the past 50 years or so.
if you even feel the need to ask those questions you dont fricking get the point behind why animation has such great potential as a visual storytelling medium.
I dont even KNOW what that classroom scene is from, I just liked how it looked but I can guess it would have to be to showcase the overall emptiness of the room. its a high angle, long distance shot, its there for variety something that in an american show would be likely a flat angle medium shot.
we should do a cultural exchange program where we trade animation studios with japan and see what happens
>Jap studio: wtf? we actually get paid? and we don't have to work to death?!
>American studio: everyone collectively goes to the suicide forest to an hero after living under japanese society for a week
I genuinely nonironically want to see a show either anime or cartoon or a joint collab do this as the plot of said show.
Speaking as someone with no real interest in anime besides watching one or two occasionally, I don't think it's any secret the animation absolutely blows away its western competition (generally). Cartoons have only gotten worse and worse since the new millenium, and this trend shows no sign of stopping. Like is any anime even remotely as boring to look at as a Seth MacFarlane show (or anything in that style)? Even stuff that's clearly strained by a year round weekly schedule like Pokemon or the latest greatest shonen still have more style in their character designs and overall look, even if they do resort to constant cost-cutting measures.
This whole thread makes me question why some of you don't just stick to Cinemaphile instead of polluting Cinemaphile with useless east vs west threads.
Because I want our shit to be better. anime and other countries animation actually does shit that we DONT do cause we have a shitty uncaring industry.
And why the frick do you think another one of these threads is gonna help with that cause? Because you're a shitposter that wants to stir up Cinemaphile for the billionth time again, that's why.
If you had genuine intention to do what you typed out yourself, you'd be trying to talk to these creators yourselves on Twitter or better yet, actually trying to go into the industry yourself instead of wasting everyone's time here on a Filipino storyboard sticky-note sketching forum.
Why are you even here you mud sucking fricktard?
>throwing insults like the ape he is
Not even gonna try and defend it, huh? Good talk, head back to Cinemaphile whenever you're ready.
At least you're honest, believe me I understand how you feel too. And yeah, Twitter really isn't worth the sacrificed braincells needed just for the low, low chance you get a genuine conversation with anybody even remotely popular.
I want to enter the industry anon, but I do NOT have the patience unfortunately to learn how to draw or frick animate. I tried but I got so damn irritated with every little frick up I did on even the most basic sketches. Im just an avid enjoyer and I want my country's animation to improve cause it clearly CAN, the people in charge who could easily instill it dont cause "I want safe easy profit despite being rich as frick and having a safety net deeper than the Mariana Trench."
Like lets talk about that. These billion/million dollar companies, these animation GIANTS do the safest shit yet the indie fricks who have EVERYTHING TO LOSE if they dont succeed spectacularly do the most unsafe and experimental shit. I get it but I also...don't get it.
Im here to vent, and you know damn good and well Twitter is a toilet useless to make big sweeping changes like this unless you get basically a jackpot chain reaction.
Anime is better because it's cooler looking and makes me feel like a big boy when watching it
Offtopic, but what are some genuinely funny anime? Maybe it's cultural differences but nip comedy rarely makes me laugh compared to western stuff
Nichijou, Joshiraku, and Squid Girl to give some of my picks.
Wasteful Days of High School Girls is alright but the manga is way funnier. Stuff is reordered and for some reason the anime cuts a bunch of chapters (especially Majo's) in favor of anime original segments/fillers. I think the execution of the jokes is weaker than the manga too.
The author's other series, Uchuu Toka to Kurabetara Chippoke na Mondai tbh ga , is really damn funny too. There's a lot of shtick but also a lot of her humor seems to be based on creating awkward situations involving characters who are just kind of shitty so I think it's a style of humor that translates easier to westerners than most Japanese humor.
It's one of the real reasons why people like anime so much
It mainly just looks better visually than western cartoons
They use a lot of post processing to make the frames look better
Having very samey looking characters because if it looks good then no one cares
And less off model stuff
>East vs West thread
This thread can only go in one circular motion.
thats the way of the tao
You know what I'd love to see? Another western take on Mario, Zelda, and Sonic. and I know we're getting Mario movie and we had Sonic Boom, but I want 2D animation takes, those above are both in 3d.
One day, we'll have AI making animation appealing to your tastes and your tastes alone.
Is that what Marcel is? Frick.
Dude, this. I was rewatching both some western toons and animes, and i started to notice it, too. How the camera and composition in anime is usually more complex. This seems to be the case for both more cartoony shows, and more serious ones.
That being said, i don't know if it's necessarily better, it's just different styles i reckon. They have a very aesthetic take on things, here on the west cartoons tend to be more... practical, i guess
You guys suck ass. The OP was about composition and lighting and all you did was b***h about character designs fricking morons.
This is Cinemaphile anon, most of the cartoon side here is made up of literal teenagers and manchildren, both of whom know nothing about shot composition or lighting or film in general.
Compared to the man children on the anime side who can't draw for shit, but think a scene with wonky perspective and shit composition that adds nothing to the scene is good, because they think it looks cool
>that boring frick who didn't do something purely cause it was cool.
Excuse me anon, this is a thread about composition and lighting, not shipping brown lesbians.
Your expertise is unneeded here.
Anime is an incredibly creative medium visually. Even if the shows aren't always animated well aside from special scenes there's usually pretty inventive shot compositions that make up for it. That's why people are ripping it off so much now. It's FUN.
That's why directors have reputations over there because direction matters a lot more. It makes a clearly obvious impact to the tone of the show/episode/moment. Over here it's barely noticeable. Shigeyasu Yamauchi is one of my favorites he's fricking weird. Wish I had a computer so I could post screens.
Yeah agree. Going back to OPs point, the camera/scene composition in animes tend to be better. It focus on a character faces and actions, and tends to avoid showing unecessary parts in the scene.
I don't exactly know how to say it, but it is indeed noticeable. Of course, there are exceptions in both western cartoons and animes, but it seems to be true in general, at least as far as i can tell.
Some of the modern cartoons have been learning from that.
I don't know why everyone in this thread keeps trying to use poor examples like Amphibia and TOH when we have more impressive and recent stuff like The final season of The Clone Wars, Invincible, and Love, Death & Robots that do exactly what OP's a talking about.
There's even the upcoming Scavenger's Reign that looks pretty great too.
The people who make east vs west threads always do the same shit
>Look at this high anime screenshot in perspective compared to a scene with no perspective from a children's cartoon. Isn't western animation bad guys?????
Well unlike anime, american animation actually has animation.
Sorry that it doesn't just make a bunch of well composited still to hang on for minutes on end to make up for the fact the characters don't move.
Let's not kid ourselves, most american tv animation isn't doing anything impressive even with its movement.
yes its animated consistently minute to minute but its not impressive. Anime despite being still more often has actually impressive bits of animation.
gif related
You know it's not fair to bring up Nichijou.
I dont have the whole scene on hand, and cant be arsed to get a youtube link right now cause tired but this bit from Ed Edd n Eddy had a really cool overall shot.
Ed Edd n Eddy honestly did a lot more in general with its animation and set design and composition than a lot of cartoons and even a lot of anime.
The episode where Ed turns into a monster and starts sticking kids to the walls in his basement has a lot of homages to various monster movies both in designs, Ed's behavior, and even how some of the scenes are presented.
Oh yeah no its great, its why I HATE it still has no full complete series box set, and yeah I COULD just torrent/download all the episodes/specials/movie but I want something nice to put on my shelf goddamit, Courage got one, EEnE should have it too.
I'm honestly surprised EEnE doesn't, that was CN's longest-running show and was pretty damn popular.
The problem is that OP is wrong
There a tons of modern western animation that have the same if not more changes in composition and lighting than anime
That was mostly done in Spain anon. but regardless No you are wrong.
>proves op is wrong
>n-n-no you're wrong
How moronic are you?
they provided ONE example, anon. that does not prove anything. and technically Klaus was mostly a Spain production anyway so its not American, plus its a film which tend to have far higher budgets and more care put into it anyway.
All the notable anime directors in Japan were massive geeks who had passion for cinematography. People like Satoshi Kon, Hideaki Anno, Kunihiko Ikuhara or Shinichirou Watanabe didn't just like anime, but film in general and were much influenced by it and wanted to do their own thing. But animation in USA hasn't been recognized on this level, except for massive big budget films. But as we know most anime directors and animators had to deal with very limited resources and that's how the whole "sakuga" culture was born. You have creators like Dana Terrace who have IDEAS, but their artistic passion seems kind of low. And not like it matters anyway, since all of the animation gets outsourced and Disney restrict artistic freedom a lot.
I think especially the creators of children's animation whine a lot these days how their work is not recognized as serious art/film, but then you never see them having any interest in film cinematography. They talk about themes, characters and narratives but the thing is, if you're only interested in those things then you might as well write a book, it's a hell lot easier than animation.
Something I can't stand is calling Japanese cartoons anime. They're still cartoons, they just happen to be from Japan.
dude I dont know how tell you this but its the short hand term everyone not from Japan uses to denote a piece of animation from Japan, its like you hear "anime" and you instantly know "Oh okay this thing was made in Japan."
Anime isn't even a Japanese word though, it's French. So technically I could call any French cartoon anime and I wouldn't be wrong.
thats actually apparently a myth. Thanks anon you made me learn this interesting little factoid. the origin of "anime" as a word is disputed surprisingly.
reminder that japs can't into 3d
the west has mastered it to the point that they can even make it look like 2d
the japs still aren't able to do that without it looking like shit
Give one reason for creators to give a shit about things like cinematography or storyboarding or hell even the story when all the audience cares about is what ships will be the endgame (looking at you, Voltron)
Stop putting so much focus on ships then. You reap what you sow.
Voltron still hurts. The show looked so good, but it's clear that they went into it with NO vision or creative integrity what so ever.
I loved this bit from it.
you can feel the passion from who drew up/storyboarded/animated this.
Netflix animation is doomed from the start anyway. They cancel shows out of sudden when it's no longer profitable enough, but they never give the creators any numbers so they have no idea what's going on. You have shows like Dark Crystal: Age of Resistance that clearly have the passion but since people would rather watch the newest season of Tiger King, Netflix goes after that.
There was supposed to be Wings of Fire adaptation but it got canned before it even aired.
There are tons of shows listed in this thread that prove op wrong yet you have trannime gay still trying to say that anime is better
the real problem of american cartoon industry is that they want to look down on anime so bad but it tries to be more like anime at the same time
Is it just envy? They know they can never surpass the nipman in technical skill alone? At least that's how the entirely of /ic/ feels
I liked it when op didn't know how to distinguish composition from cinematography, OP is getting smarter
it sad to see a bunch of americans full of inferiority complex
So the real reason trannime gays like anime so much is that they just prefer the aesthetics and that it has less baby shows so they feel like adults when watching cartoons
anon why you gotta promote the culture of moving pictures through the illusion of putting pictures on top of each other in quick succession as "childish?"
The aesthetic of most shows is cheap. although he has a good point, western shows don't take too many risks. but this is only valid for network cartoon garbage that no one watches anymore, most webshows are more adventurous
People in the west want more adult animation because they want to see more interesting and varied stories in the animation medium.
It’s tiring when the medium you have the most access to isn’t allowed to touch certain topics in a meaningful manner because of the need to restrict animation to children’s shows or “adult comedies”.
The only reason anime is popular now is because American animation lacked that.
not to mention that the majority of "adult" animation is just people trying to be as edgy as possible
honestly, the disney/pixar merge was a mistake
Yeah but when there are people like VivziePop who go independent and do their own thing, other animators try their best to get her cancelled because they're jealous that someone actually gets shit done. Honestly people just whine how they want this or that but they don't have the balls to be like Ralph Bakshi or Mike Judge and just start doing shit.
People eating each other alive is the norm now. You gotta play nice and lick heel or the industry will lock you out. Even if you fly solo, you'll need them if you get big enough.
Weird thing for a weeaboo to say.
Reddit
We have studios like Red Dog Culture House which did that Witcher movie and this music video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEFVxI9lqjU
All of the animators are asiatics of course
>I hate to make this an "Cinemaphile vs Cinemaphile" type thread
Sure sure weeb
This is why Japanese stuff is better than Korean. Nerds doing shit for nerds > generic pop stars who exist just to make money for rich guys and has somehow been marketed as "good music". There's no point in pandering for normies because they can't appreciate anything, case in point
Geek culture died in USA the moment MCU was invented.
>tiktok
Go back,Black person
No free speech?
>James Baxter
I like this scene by Milt kahl a lot so I picked him instead.
I love this movie but it still doesn't compare. But this is really good.
Our TV animation is still pretty subtle in its expression. A lot of anime resorts to the same tropes and expressions over and over again. They're usually incredibly exaggerated if it's not a scene that's just two characters talking in the cheapest way possible. I'm not going to count cheap animated scenes as being subtle when small movements are necessary budget wise rather than for character expressions.
> A lot of anime resorts to the same tropes and expressions over and over again
do you seriously not watch anything other than shounen
scratch that, even shounen animes are more capable of subtle expression on the level of miyazaki even when episodic
The reason why is because American animation largely took from stage plays (where the "sitcom" style comes from) and vaudeville (with a greater focus on individual character animation rather than shot composition, though they are not antithetical). Even cartoons from the Golden Age were quite flat.
Anime, on the other hand, takes from cinema, which leads to an arguably superior look IMO.
In other words, different animation philosophies.
Imagine if every anime was shot like Spongebob. That's basically the situation in the US.
Though, KLK sucks so that's not the best example. There are much better anime out there.
FYI animators in japan are paid less than mcdonalds workers. They are literally worked like slaves.
I agree OP and I don't even watch anime. It can be also compared to film staging.