Is Sandman arguably the worst from the "A list" or recognizable cast of Spider-Man bad guys? Feels like his only noteworthy story was going straight, which didn't last
Spider-Man Villains
Is Sandman arguably the worst from the "A list" or recognizable cast of Spider-Man bad guys? Feels like his only noteworthy story was going straight, which didn't last
Nah, at least he has interesting stories. Electro is the lamest, he's done nothing noteworthy period.
I agree that it's Electro. He has no distinct personality, no interesting backstory, no development, no real motivations, and he has never really had an iconic defining story. Notice how every adaptation of him does something completely different, because there is nothing from the comics about him worth adapting other than his powers. All he ever really does is pad out Sinister Six rosters. Also, let's face it, his costume kinda sucks.
Kinda?
There was that time he went through an experimental process that gave him a huge temporary power increase enabling him to go toe-to-toe with Nate Grey.
>Also, let's face it, his costume kinda sucks.
Another Spider-Man villain thread, another anon getting filtered by Electro's costume. You guys just don't love supervillains enough.
>Does anyone like his Gauntlet story where Magneto insults him, and Max tries to spin some bullshit "Power to The People" rally to feel like a winner?
Those are two separate stories, the Magneto thing was set in the early days of Electro's career, the other one was part of The Gauntlet and inspired by the then-recent Occupy movement IRL. That's the one where a fight between Peter and Electro destroyed the Daily Bugle building yet again and people reacted like it was 9/11 part 2.
>Those are two separate stories,
It was a flashback set during that arc. And yeah the anon is right, Electro's costume could use updating
Electro's costume has been "updated" a bunch, and it never sticks because the original is too iconic to discard
Anon that's not the reason they circle back to it. In fact Electro is one of the most stagnated Sinister Six members there is. They haven't fleshed out his character, haven't updated/explained his origin, he hasn't had "That" story to put him on the map, and his costume is a visual representation of the era he's stuck in. They keep using it because "Oh its that thing you remember and we can't think of a good updated suit yet, so here".
They could keep the star thing as a facial scar since lightning gives one a gnarly scar in real life.
To my knowledge that's still a thing. The anon I'm speaking with has a history of defending Electro's original look, and hates ANYTHING trying to update it
I think the problem with Electro's original look isn't the mask, it's the bodysuit.
>Max talks about his sister like she's some poor orphan girl from a Dicken's novel
>she's actually a trashy, materialistic scumbag who thinks everyone in her life owes her something
>that's not the reason they circle back to it
It absolutely is. It's not like they've never bothered to change it. They have, it just never sticks.
>They haven't fleshed out his character, haven't updated/explained his origin
What more do you need? He's a greedy man who commits crimes for personal gain. Not every supervillain needs lofty goals.
>he hasn't had "That" story to put him on the map
Read Light the Night for the love of god man
>his costume is a visual representation of the era he's stuck in. They keep using it because "Oh its that thing you remember and we can't think of a good updated suit yet, so here"
Plenty of characters have had their designs largely unchanged since the 60s so this point doesn't mean anything.
Seriously what do you want from Electro both design wise and as a character? He doesn't need some edgy new look, he's supervillain, and an instantly recognisable one at that. He doesn't need some complex backstory or deep ambitions. Do you just not like comic books or something?
>Do you just not like comic books or something?
See this right here is what makes me think that either you're trolling, or genuinely that much of an butthole. "Don't like a thing? WeLl ThEN yOu'rE a cASuaL!!!". Put that back in the box, and don't waste both of our time with that.
Anon this isn't even the first or last case of a Spider-Man villain forsaking his original look. Plus, you just outright ignored my argument of Max being stagnated altogether with "it doesn't mean anything". How the hell does it not?
What do you want? Seriously. What do you want out of Electro? What do you think he should be? Why can't he just be a greedy man looking out for himself? A man with power and no responsibility so to speak?
And why do you hate his costume? And don't just say "it's stupid" because that's a really dumb and shallow reason.
>Why can't he just be a greedy man looking out for himself?
Because that’s boring for a guy with his powers. TNAS did a pretty good reinvention where they made him into a super-powered school shooter.
What I want is for Max to matter beyond what his powers are. That's it. And I don't "hate" the costume, but acknowledge that the guy could use a makeover. Why are you so opposed to updating it? Because every time we post newer versions or ideas to improve it, you dismissively say "Nah it, it sucks" like your opinion is objective fact. You know, the exact thing you're trying to accuse me of?
Electro's costume isn't to ashamed of, but it's nothing to be proud of either.
He’s a fanboy, a zealot. The kind of guy who b***hes and moans every time an adaption makes any sort of change from the source, no matter how much of a genuine improvement it is. To him, if it ain’t 1:1, it’s blasphemous.
>Why are you so opposed to updating it?
Because none of them are good. Especially ones that downplay his status as a comic book supervillain. It all reeks of being ashamed of the source just like the Fox X-Men designs. The Insomniac design is really boring and generic, and the less said about the TASM2/Ultimate redesign the better. Spectacular is the only one that's a decent alternative and that only works in an animated or otherwise 2D artstyle because the lightning effect will always look like shit when attempted realistically.
>Especially ones that downplay his status as a comic book supervillain
None of them do that? The frick are you talking about?
>It all reeks of being ashamed of the source
No that's your own autism at work whenever artists try something new.
>Spectacular is the only one that's a decent
Oh you mean the one that's a base green jumpsuit and that's it? Every "criticism" you give is generic hyperbole, and then when you shit on one design for being generic the same logic magically doesn't apply towards a desig guilty of the exact same thing. Spectacular Electro's costume isn't even trying to go for the "Hey I'm going to dress up as a bad guy" angle you've been pushing for, yet somehow it's not exempt? This is why your arguments/reasoning fall flat, it's just flat out bias.
>Why are you so opposed to updating it?
Not the same anon, but "because I like it" and "because every single effort to update or replace it has been a downgrade". Most of them are boring, generic and not at all distinctive.
>Most of them are boring, generic and not at all distinctive.
Buzzwords
Face it, Electro achieved perfection in the 1960s. I don't know why you're being so uppity about this.
Not that anon, huh? Look anon we get it, you like original Electro, and there's a charm to it. That's completely fine. However to call it the peak or the best we can do with Electro is asinine. Characters are constantly evolving and changing, even Spidey villains. Why are you being a jerk about this to people who acknowledge this?
>Do you just not like comic books or something?
Most people got into Spider-Man through the adaptations. To them, the comics were secondary.
You can't really use that here because no one likes ASM Electro, anon. Nice try though
Electro was in the cartoons and games, dude. Those count as adaptations.
Light the Night
I always felt like if I was tasked with an Electro story, I'd really play up his blue-collar origin.
He could be a guy who grew up dirt poor, worked his ass off his whole life, and the best he could manage was being a self-taught unlicensed electrician/handyman. Maybe he has to provide for a family member or something. One day he gets electrocuted on the job and wakes up a month later with powers, and suddenly he has an opportunity to to just have whatever he wants by just taking it. No more struggle, no more stress, no more effort.
Still keeps him simple and straightforward, but I think it could also play into the times where Peter feels especially burdened by responsibility/wishes he didn't have to be Spider-Man, because Electro's whole thing would be giving up on responsibility and just taking the low road.
Web of Shadows gave him a sister. Max could be working his ass off to provide for his little sister, their parents having either died or simply abandoned them.
I like it, gives him that family connection without having to go full Aunt May.
how the frick did I forget about Max's sister, WoS is my favorite Spider-Man game
>”My sister’s the only one who matters to me. The rest of the world can go hang for all I care.”
Sound familiar?
Electro is sold on his powers and not characterization. There's a good theme here of "Loser thinks power makes the man, when all it does is show how short sighted he is", but rarely do we properly explore this. And yes, Electro's costume DOES suck (waiting for that one autist to show up).
Does anyone like his Gauntlet story where Magneto insults him, and Max tries to spin some bullshit "Power to The People" rally to feel like a winner?
Honestly I feel Hydro-Man is better than Sandman. What does Sandman have besides that one off reformation? His design isn't even interesting. Hydro-Man is not only more thematically complimentary to Spidey, and more versatile with his powers, but Hydro-Man actually has a reason to hate the web head. It's Peter's fault he exists
The most notable Hydroman story was the time he fused with Sandman, got a full pardon because the fusion was technically not the same person as either of them, and then spent the rest of the issue doing a king kong parody.
That doesn't make Hydro-Man conceptually bad. Sandman only wins by appearing first, and thus his seniority granted him more reasons to appear in future stories. I honestly would have preferred vice versa
>That doesn't make Hydro-Man conceptually bad
True, but in the end it's all about execution. Hydroman doesn't have anything going for him in terms of stories. Maybe if he was introduced as a Daredevil or Cap villain he could have stood out, but in the end he's just doomed to be discount Sandman when it comes to power, and a big load of nothing when it comes to personality.
The best thing I can even say is that the sunlight weakness at least set him apart a little.
>Maybe if he was introduced as a Daredevil
Because that's exactly what we need, Daredevil stealing more of Peter's material....
Well, what else is he good for? It's either stealing Peter's villains, dealing with ninja shit, or introducing his girlfriends to bullseye.
Daredevil has been a victim of theft more than he's stolen rogues
Example?
>The Hand
>Silver Samurai
>Yuriko (pre-deathstrike)
All stolen by Wolverine. Well half custody with the Hand but if Matt's getting shit on for Kingpin then it counts
Also recently Typhoid Mary
The guy’s capable of being an endgame-level threat. He can flood the city or sick tsunamis on it. Literally Ultimatum.
How can Spider-Man defeat a Logia Akuma no mi user like him without Haki?
With a vacuum cleaner. Or a fan. Or water. Or using extreme heat to turn him into glass. Or by finding the one grain of sand that controls his conciousness and isolating it.
Is that last one actually canon?
Yes, his consciousness is contained within a single grain, same with similar characters like Quicksand and Dust.
Yeah it was during Ends of the Earth
Luffy defeated a sand Logia without using Haki.
Personally I find Vulture the worst, he's just less cool conceptually, though Ditko did good stories with him
>Failed aging businessman/inventor survives by stealing other people's work/money
I don't know, I think there's something there. It's cool seeing an old man like Toomes keep up with Spider-Man, even if he knows its all for nothing. He could have been as successful as Norman, but that time has passed.
You ask me Tinkerer is more lame
Ironically the reason a lot of Spider-Man's villains lack personality is Ditko's fault, he didn't believe in sad backstories that might in any way justify or explain their actions. Ditko thought if your first reaction to gaining superpowers was to commit crime then you were irredeemably evil.
The flipside is that he gave them interesting costumes and powers because they needed something to justify their existence.
>Ditko thought if your first reaction to gaining superpowers was to commit crime then you were irredeemably evil.
Tbh he is partially right, if i could detonate atoms with a thought you bet your ass there will no longer be any pride parades in the next century
Is that the reason why only Spider-Man looked good while his villains looked like crap?
The fact his power is just flying is already a bit lame, just like Angel from the X-Men, and the fact he's a geezer doesn't really help. I'm sure there's good stories of him, I think his two ditko issues are great as per his usual, but even others who had worse stories in that very run are just cooler (better designs and powers) like sandman
Also Tinkerer isn't an A-list villain so he doesn't count
Right, I would agree to that. I just mentioned Tinkerer because when we were talking about Toomes, my mind went to another aged inventor with less going for him. Smythe is another dime a dozen boring mad scientist.
The suit not only grants him flight, but enhanced strength. Later suit upgrades would include sharp feathers and talons. Plus, Toomes is a genius. He ha enough going for him to be a iconic Spider-Man villain. Vulture doesn't need more bells and whistles, he's fine as is.
Though I will say the suit could look a bit more like how it was originally designed to be given his background. Still say Insomniac Vulture is the best he's ever looked. Also in that universe the suit keeps him alive. I just like the imagery of an oxygen mask having bird beak imagery. Great for high altitudes and to keep him kicking
I think the MCU handled him really well in terms of casting and presentation. To me comic Toomes' issue is that he's drawn too decrepit and spindly (and his classic costume looks like a pair of long johns but that's neither here nor there) which doesn't work well visually. Michael Keaton looked like an average guy who should be thinking about retirement rather than someone who looks like they're going to break a hip falling in the grocery store.
He was the best part of that movie, I would agree on that, just doesnt change my overall assessment
i wouldnt really call the tinkerer an a lister
aside from what
said hes less boring (& better looking)
Hydro Man exists
Mysterio chads stay winning.
Best villain
Mysterio has a lot going for him given his background and motivations. His theatricality validates his weird yet entertaining design. Really he's just a con man of the super community
I hate how modern Mysterio just uses CGI holograms for everything. Mysterio was more interesting when he used practical effects like pyrotechnics, smoke and mirrors, animatronics, and henchmen in rubber suits.
>I hate how modern Mysterio just uses CGI holograms for everything
Huh? What are you talking about? He uses a variety of stuff, not just holograms.
Me personally, I never really enjoyed Rhino, outside of his Gauntlet arc at least. He's pretty basic power-wise (literally just Juggernaut in a rhino suit), and again, outside of the Gauntlet, there's not a lot going for his character.
Curious to see how they'll handle him in Kraven.
You're in for disappointment because that movie is garbage and they made him a hybrid.
Rhino's character involves Aleksei angry at his life because he's never had any skills outside of his muscle. He can't build anything, so he destroys. When he thinks, he realizes how terrible his life is, which is why he prefers being a "tool" for some other employer. The tragedy in The Gauntlet is losing the life he built, and tried to be happy for once. Plus I like that Rhino is a mix of gamma radiation and next gen body armor grafted to his skin.
Juggernaut outside of his look and powers doesn't interest me, but then again I've never been big on X-Men outside of Wolverine.
Nah, it’s Green Goblin.
>inb4 B-B-B-BUT HE PIDERMAN GREETEST VILLAN!
Yes yes, he has SOME good stories BUT his theming is all off which is what ruins him. Most classic Spider-Man villains have SOMETHING to do with spiders, like just look at the original Sinister Six line up:
>Scorpion: scorpions are well-known predators of spiders
>Vulture: likewise birds love having a spider as a snack here and there
>Kraven: of course it’s well know that spider based dishes comprised 40% of all Russian cuisine
>Electro: lightning bolts can look like spider webs in the sky also electricity is a well-known killer of spiders
>Dr Octopus: octopi are the spiders of the sea
>Sandman: sand is the spiders of dirt
But green goblins? Uhhh, only RED goblins are associated with spiders. GREEN Goblins ain’t got shit to do with spiders so it just doesn’t work and yet Marvel has been trying to force this connection for years
>Goblins ain’t got shit to do with spiders
Because Norman didn't originally create his persona to fight Peter. He went mad, and wanted to be the stuff of nightmares to take anything he wanted. Dude is wealthy, intelligent, and it wasn't enough. Osborn wanted to own New York and beat criminals at their own game now that stuff was getting weird with the introduction of supers. What makes Norman cool isn't just the visual gimmicks, but his insane obsession after Peter made him look like a fool. Norman was used to having the last laugh, until Spider-Man hit the scene to crack jokes at his expense. This was the first time Osborn was humbled, and it became his mission in life to torment Peter ever since.
Though I get why if that is not your thing personally
Credit where credit is due, Dark Reign did one thing right. It brought Norman back to his roots of trying to get power. more or less every Goblin story nowadays is about him trying to fight Spiderman, but they totally forget that his original goal was to take over the underworld.
The appeal and tragedy of Norman is that he can't let Spidey go. Dude could have taken over New York ages ago, but since Peter showed him up it's been a drawn out vendetta ever since. It's kinda like the Black Manta situation over with Aquaman. It will never be enough for Norman.
Norman is more terrifying when he’s just himself. Old school Goblin’s just ridiculous. Dude’s wearing a skirt and has a purse.
>skirt
they're briefs (or shorts in more modern times)
How do people keep falling for it?
For what? The dude was civil
His first story never made sense for his character. That’s why when Amazing Friends adapted it, they swapped out the Goblin for Mysterio since he’s the actual movie guy.
>BUT his theming is all off which is what ruins him. Most classic Spider-Man villains have SOMETHING to do with spiders
not every rogue's gallery can have the impeccable theming of batman's. sometimes your greatest nemesis is just a guy who wants you dead.
: sand is the spiders of dirt
>Is Sandman arguably the worst from the "A list" or recognizable cast of Spider-Man bad guys?
Electro.
>Kraven's movie pushed back to August 2024
When was this announced? I mean I'm not bummed out because I know it'll be shit, but I'm shocked I didn't hear about this until today. It was set to come out in October
Oh well, no big loss. At least we're still getting a good Kraven in the game this month. But in general is Kraven the ultimate "Frick you, I won" bad guy? Did he ever try to hunt Wolverine?
It was announced to be in development in august 2018, was originally supposed to be released this January, delayed to October, and now to August next year.
This last one was supposedly because of the strikes, but I’m sure it’s because Sony knows they have an stinker
>Sony knows they have an stinker
Well yeah. These Spidey villain movies are so far removed from the material it's not even funny. They exist only to ensure SONY can keep the film rights, so they don't have to try that hard.
Morbius was bullshit, and the leaks surrounding Kraven miss the point so hard
No, that's Chameleon.
He really does suck
I feel like he'd be more effective as a Cap or Nick Fury villain, he feels really out of place for Spider-Man.
Remember how after his first two appearances he became a Hulk villain who was involved in the Leader's introductory arc in Tales to Astonish and was in two other Hulk stories before returning to Spider-Man.
Is Chameleon really A-list though?
I mean, he's the OG supervillain and appeared in numerous adaptations, so he should be.
He’s cooler when he’s a legit shapeshifter.
B at most (Really like him though)
homie left that man in a backpack and forgot about it
thats my goat
I'm going now, and remember that anyone who hasn't read Light the Night is not allowed to complain about Electro
Since we're having this conversation again, I just want to say this: I think Scorpion's best looks all emphasize him being an evil mirror to Spider-Man. I think he definitely should have a more muscular frame than Spider-Man (but not overly so, like in 2017 cartoon) and similar eye holes in his mask. That's why Ultimate is one time I don't mind the armor suit look. Most other armored Scorpion designs just frick up that completely.
I agree with basically everything you said, and I actually think the eyes are the part of Scorpion's costume that are the most frequently fricked up. I'm personally not a huge fan of the completely exposed eyes that some versions off the costume give him, but holy shit artists need to cool it with the dumb techno visors, they're so much worse.
Yeah, he should always be a big dude. Scorpions eat spiders, so him being bigger and bladder’s a given. He should be stronger and faster than Spidey to make him a legit threat. The type of threat where Spidey would need to pull some cheap tricks or need the help of another hero to beat him. Imagine Spidey doing this to Scorpion: https://youtu.be/VOK4NtCkNGg
I had a Scorpion design for ages, but lack the artist talent to visualize it.
>Base green bodysuit design like always
>Tail attachment looks like a mechanical scorpion piggybacking on his body. Claw imagery on his pectorals with six "legs" around his abs/torso for further stability
>Gargan's hands have talons on the index finger, middle finger, and thumb. Gives off scorpion claw imagery, and illustrates wall crawling as a bit more destructive than Peter
>Scorpion's mask looks like a scorpion. Base body of the bug is on his mouth like a respirator, and the claws are illustrated in his eye lenses shape.
Though in retrospect the last one may be a bit much
Why not have the Scorpion symbol on his chest? That way, he’d look closer to an Evil Spider-Man.
It's a real shame that Dark Reign left him mind broken and now he's just trying to become Venom again.
Why even have armor? Scorpions have a hard exoskeleton. He'd look like a regular human guy, but his skin is ultra-durable. Making his body as strong as steel. That way, he can just wear a regular green suit to make him closer to an Evil Spider-Man.
I'm just going to post Scorpion looks
I wish I liked this one more than I do. the shape and color of the costume is pretty good, but all the little plates and lines don't really draw my eye anywhere and the bright red-orange visor lenses just don't look good. I think most of the Insomniac designs are good but this one just doesn't do it for me.
He seemed poorly thought out, gets the drop on Peter twice, injected him twice, still goes down like a b***h even with rhinos help
Also that boss fight was entirely cheesable because you have unlimited health by just web zipping in circles around the arena
I think it's supposed to be one half muscle fibers other half exoskeleton. Also Gargan sucking at fighting Peter is shockingly canon at this point
Easy way to spin it is that Mac is a decent brawler but at this point Peter has gotten a lot of actual fight training by guys like Shang-Chi so a couple of superpowered haymakers simply don't cut it against Peter anymore.
my main hope is the boss battles are better than the last game which all amounted to run away run away run away, ok his attack cycle is over, spam webs then press triangle to beat em up and repeat
All of the designs are bad. The Spidey suit itself is an over-designed mess.
They're not all terrible (some definitely are though) but they are certainly overdesigned
I like most of the villain designs, but switch to default classic Spidey
I switched to the Raimi suit. Love that shit.
While I enjoyed the films I'm not a big fan of the suit. The raised webbing, the logo, the eye shape, all doesn't read well with me
He has armor because it's not about what Gargan wants, but what scientists and investors (Like Jameson) wanted to beat Spider-Man. Mac is one half genetically enhanced, other half cybernetically outfitted. They want him better than the Web-Head, so they gave him the best they had. Plus I think the armor is also to compliment his tail
watch him be the actual antagonist of spiderman 2
Who's your favorite Beetle?
I like Abner, but honestly probably Janice. She's cute, I like her costume, I like her whole evil lawyer thing, and I like that she's connected to Tombstone, who I also like. I just think she's neat.
Would be nice if they drew Janice consistently