Everyone loves Spidey villains, lets talk about them. I'll start with an obscure lesser known one-off foe.
>Shathra
>Monstrous spectral creature from another dimension sharing traits with that of a spider wasp
>Wanted to frick Peter and then feed him to her young
Shathra and the Sisterhood of the Wasp should both be brought back and tied together.
I'm not familiar with them. Could Shathra be a reoccurring villain? Given Peter's long history with women, there's something amusing about a stalker
I'm pretty sure Kaine killed her after she duped him into boning her.
Not quite a villain, but whatever happened to Jenna the Junkie? Her design was waaaaaayyyyy too hot to be a throwaway character and the fact that there's literally no lewds of her is a crime of biblical proportions
Is that the girl Eddie was trying to save in that Anti-Venom mini? If so, it is surprising if there's no art of them.
She was in New Ways to Live and a couple of other issues, but it was clear they were setting her up to be a part of his new direction, especially given her distinct/unique design.
Forgotten, like most Venom characters.
That anti venom mini was fantastic in showing just how self-deluded Eddie can be. So i assume that they dropped her when they decided on spider-island for him.
I mean, that's just any young woman drawn by Chris Bachalo
Yeah, and he draws incredibly hot women I'd like to see naked. What's your point?
Don't make the yikes face a me you b***h! You're a fricking JUNKIE! You should only make the yikes face at a mirror!
Isn't that the one that later fricked Kaine and then the apartment exploded?
I want another juggernaut story, now that we JRJR on asm
Is it weird that I think Juggernaut works so much better away from X-Men bullshit? Heck his powers and origin don't really bog him down to Mutant nonsense anyway. It's always a treat seeing Cain interact with Spidey, Thor, or The Hulk too
All X-Men characters work better out of X-Men comics
Jugs absolutely works as a Thor nemesis. Writers really underestimate how well earth-based villains like the Wrecking Crew, Absorbing Man, Mr. Hyde, and Jugs work off of Thor. Thor, the noble warrior, facing off against low down crooks who are arguably tougher than he is has always brought out the best in him. The first legit throw down between Thor and Juggernaut is still one of the best “Hero Fights Villain From Another Rogues Gallery” stories Marvel ever did.
>I want another juggernaut story
Spidey has nothing that works on Juggernaut and Juggernaut has nothing that works on Spidey. The one fricking trick Spidey's used to defeat him before someone else tried later and he remembered and countered that shit.
What do you want, Spidey to jump around while Juggernaut wrecks shit until Spidey can rig up a catapult to fling him into fricking Jersey? Any serious conflict between them is going nowhere slow.
Not that anon but Juggernaut's appearances in Spidey have been good, and not everything has to be thought like power level nonsense. Just saying
The original worked because it was a villain so outside of Spidey's wheelhouse, he had no idea how to defeat him. He's shown up a few times now, but at this point, you'd need to go further afield in order to have the same impact: someone like Mister Sinister or whatever surviving mob families the Punisher hasn't taken care of, something so different to his usual fare, he needs to rethink his usual plans
See Rhino is a powerhouse that can tango with The Hulk, but Juggs is fueled by magic bullshit and can virtually be unstoppable once gaining enough steam
It would be difficult to contrive a story for someone like Sinister getting into a situation where Spider-Man has to fight him alone, you just need to find ways to re-tell the basic concept of the Juggernaut story with other Marvel villains Peter has no familiarity with, and who can't be stopped physically. A villain that's living energy, like Klaw or the Living Laser might work for a variation that forces him to use his brain to try and stop them.
Mob families are pretty within his wheelhouse, he fights crime lords all the time.
I like Spidey's mob boss foes.
>Kingpin
>Silvermane
>Hammerhead
>Tombstone
>Crime Master
>Mister Negative
In fact Daredevil owes a lot to Spider-Man
There's also:
>Rose
>Fortunato
>Big Man
But yeah i agree. Spider-Crime lords are usually a lot of fun (and there's really only three or so other marvel crime lords of any note), even if its mostly the big 4.
And DD has actually fought tombstone a suprising amount of times, funny since spectacular had to use him instead of kingpin due to fisk being seen as a DD villain.
Not a Spidey villain but I like that Black Mariah has been appearing in the sidelines for this arc. Marvel needs to do something with her.
Maybe give Luke Cage his own ongoing. When was the last time he had one?
A downside would be having to put up with Jessica Jones (I hate that character so much and the fact that Bendis felt the need to tie her to Cage, means that even his stories are no save from this shit character. Bendis truly is cancer) but if the writing is good and she's only presented in small amounts I can probably somewhat get over it.
City of Fire was cancelled one month before it was set to launch lol
Wasn't that supposed to be a mini, anyway?
I meant an actual run.
I think they need to put Fisk to rest for a couple of years. He's kind of a millstone around anything mob-centric because it all leads back to him.
The problem is that Fisk's entire gimmick is being the "Kingpin" of New York, the end all be all boss of organized crime. Everyone else has turf but under his banner, which limits what you can do. In recent years they've tried to give Mister Negative, Hammerhead, and Tombstone some more pull though
Well he's been mayor for a while, and now he's not in NYC. Marvel's been basically doing that for a while.
Some of them have been rivals over the years, or popped during the times he's not around.
While we're on the topic of Kingpin, I think he's been too much of a crutch for Daredevil. Guy's rogues have seriously suffered as a result, and it's a bit weird that Matt has claim over an interchangeable villain like that.
Kind of surprised Silvermane doesn't get much pull these days. Guy's been a head for a good while. You would think an old timer that has stayed in the game this long would be more dangerous/cool
>Kind of surprised Silvermane doesn't get much pull these days. Guy's been a head for a good while. You would think an old timer that has stayed in the game this long would be more dangerous/cool
He was in one of the recent Silk minis, which revealed he has a bastard daughter who has a complicated love-hate relationship with.
He got a new body in Spencer's Spider-Man, but it's weirdly clunky and archaic-looking.
Fisk is just too good a foil to DD, the best enemy for a man that dedicates himself to the law, is one that is above it due to his criminal life. Not to mention that the vast majority of the "iconic" elements of Fisk as a character are owed to DD as a book. And being totally honest DD really only has a handful of villains that are that good (Owl, Gladiator, Mr Fear, Typhod Mary and obviously Bullseye) its not that suprising he either relies on Fisk or on cribbing from spidey, which he did as early as with Electro.
Silvermane's always been kind of a one and done deal. His original story ended with him disintegrating and he mostly spent his history just filling generic crime lord roles untill he became a cyborg and then...he continued to fill those generic roles (at most getting to be a motivator for cloak/dagger or mr negative). Doesnt help that he keeps being pushed down the chain each time a new crime lord is introduced (first with hammerhead, then tombstone then negative), except in adaptations where he's suprisingly prominent (except for PS4 turning hammerhead into him).
>DD really only has a handful of villains that are that good (Owl, Gladiator, Mr Fear, Typhod Mary and obviously Bullseye)
Which again, his rogues couldn't really grow because of Fisk
Well, its a chicken or egg situation. Does he not have intresting rouges because Fisk is used too much? Or was Fisked used too much because the other villains arent very intresting?
No it's pretty much the former...Him and The Hand
Daredevil's villains are lame, though. Daredevil pre-Miller sucked in general.
Hey the early run sure as hell isn't ASM quality, I'll agree with you there. However I don't see anything wrong with most of his lesser used rogues. Purple Man, Typhoid Mary, even fricking Stilt-Man all have qualities for interesting reading.
I'm going to be bold and say Miller was one of the worst things to happen to DD just because everyone was trying to copy him afterwards thus creating stagnant storytelling
Purple Man is easily one of the shittiest characters Marvel ever created. He should've stayed dead the first time.
What's wrong with Purple Man?
He wasn't inherently bad, but as much as Miller redefined Daredevil, Bendis redefined Purple Man, and every writer who brings him back is doing their own attempt at imitating Bendis when they write him.
The fact that he's not even remotely interesting for one. He's just a boring one-note sociopath like Carnage, just with a slightly different pathology. His powers are never used with any kind of psychological horror and there's only so many times you can read "the hero has super-willpower/was immune to the mind control all along before punching the villain out" before it gets boring.
When he was fricking with Nate Grey and wanted to use his powers to stop the war in his Yugo shitholes was as close as "interesting motivation" for him gets.
And Bendis' version of him is absolute shit either way.
Carnage is funny at least, and has the cool physical foe thing to him.
And you know he sells.
Which pruple man really doesnt.
Writer quality problem not a character problem
Weird how he never got a writer to make him a worthwhile character despite existing since 60s.
>muh Alias
Lmao.
MCU show Purple man > Comics Purple man
Both are pure fricking garbage. MCU is even worse, actually.
Your opinion isn't necessarily fact man.
It is, not my fault you have shit enough taste to pretend a whiny non-threatening British loser is a good villain.
>This villain doesn't appeal to me so he's worthless
Yes, he is worthless. Go back to twitter.
>implying I even actively use Twitter
>kek
You sure sound like one of them.
Crazy how Twitter thinks MCU Purple man > Green Goblin.
Twitter has the worst opinions, that is known.
Purple man bad.
What if it's Orange Man and he mind controls America into voting for him
Eh, i would disagree. Having read the pre-Miller DD shit, it was utterly boring. Other writers "coped Miller" as much as every spider-man writer after Lee copied him. As in they played into the ideas that made the character who it is, sometimes well sometimes poorly.
Also Typhod Mary was created in the run immediately after Miller's and her most defining thing is her relationship with Fisk.
Look all I'm saying is that The Hand is fricking boring and I'm tired of Kingpin.
The hand are super boring, i will agree with that. But then again, i think that at most they just dont fit with DD compared to Wolverine.
Wont agree on the Kingpin front. The archenemy will be used the most, that's just how it goes with superheroes, there isnt a single one where that isnt the case.
Gladiator was used a bunch as a retired villain, which is far more than what he had before tbh. It is also rather understandable why writers went that way, since that was what made DD's book stand out at first, and even then its not like they didnt try to create new villains, or re-introduce old ones (Owl constantly gets reinvented for thar reason). It is a shame with Mr Fear, since he fits both approaches.
He wasnt seen as that silly at first, but yeah when played correctly he's basically a stripped down Ock but less smart. Well more so he's escaped spider-man a few times, altough it does bug me when people call hima spider-man villain rather than a DD one.
>It is a shame with Mr Fear, since he fits both approaches.
The problem was that the best Mr Fear was believed dead for years before the Miller era, and didn't get brought back until the mid 90s, and wasn't in an 'important' DD run many people read until Brubaker's run, while the one who was actually around in the 80s never even fought DD, and was in a few Spider-Man stories instead.
>altough it does bug me when people call hima spider-man villain rather than a DD one.
Oddly, Lady Stilt-Man IS a Spider-Man villain rather than a DD one.
Yeah, altough it is intresting that dspite all the shared DNA Daredevil's "Scarecrow" (which had the fear gimmick first) isnt as prominent as batman's. And i am using scarecrow in the term of a villain with fear gases, marvel had a literal scarecrow who was an iron man villain.
True. It is odd.
And Marvel's Scarecrow was just a contortionist with trained birds.
He used fear gas once against spider-man...for some reason.
Someone assumed Marvel Scarecrow is the same character as DC Scarecrow? The editor didn't notice or didn't care?
Or they did so intentionally, perhaps.
He started out as that, but then became some kind of undead magic monster.
I think he's normal again now, though.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Matador has the most potential out of all of DD's Silver Age rogues. Give him a dynamic artist and a writer that understands the pageantry and preparation that goes into a bullfight and you've got a lot to work with. I think it's also a case where you might better off with either changing the character to woman or making him gay to add another layer of subtext.
>or making him gay
Why the frick does a bullfighter have a whip?
For when the bull misbehaves
I mean, outside of Bullseye most of the pre-Kingpin DD villains werent really used all that much even within his book. And hell you could argue it was the miller run that even gave gladiator his thing.
I know this is a thread about Spidey villains but I just want to say that the Hand are fricking boring
You would be correct. They're completely played out, function more as a resurrection plot device, and making them magical zombie ninjas led by demons just highlights how they just throw shit at the wall to see what sticks with them.
I think it's more the massive tonal shift and redefinition of the character in Miller's Daredevil meant that most of his older supervillain foes didn't get used anywhere near as much afterwards, with Bullseye as the one pre-Miller exception who stuck around because he was such a big part of that run. Villains like Owl, Stilt-Man, Gladiator and Mr Fear didn't appear as much since.
They just dont fit tonally, and it doesnt help that characters like stilt-man are seen as jokes first. Or that characters like Owl were already changing gimmicks before.
Tho gladiator was used in the run for sure.
Gladiator and Stilt-Man both appeared in Miller's run, yet the both still fell out of use afterwards because most Daredevil writers who followed him wanted to do gritty street-level crime stories with occasional ninjas. Mr Fear has the big problem of being four different guys, and only one of them was ever a serious recurring threat.
Stilt-Man has always been that villain heroes don't take seriously because of his gimmick, but is actually pretty OP for Daredevil and even holds several upset wins over Spider-Man.
Fisk. You need to build on whay you have in this medium and Risk is used too frequently so his villains suffer.
Eh, DD wouldnt be who he is without Fisk as his archenemy.
I wish they somehow focused more on Peter being part of the newspapers. Like also does investigational journalism by taking pics trying to take down the mob
>I wish they somehow focused more on Peter being part of the newspapers.
He isn't. He's a freelance photographer. He's paparazzi, not a journalist.
Also doing investigative journalism that's going to put Peter Parker in the sights of the mob is the OPPOSITE of having a private life separate from his work to keep his loved ones safe. Any butthole with a cellphone can photograph Spidey swinging around or punching someone up. No criminals gonna give 2 shits about that.
If they wanted to play up the paparazzi angle, that might be interesting though. Albeit at the cost of making him more unlikable. Let's be honest, paparazzi are professional stalkers.
Juggernaut appeared in Spencer's run not that long ago. He actually has a decent amount of apperences with spidey all things considered.
ASM #229/230 were great issues with great stuff with spiderman trying to figure out how to stop/slow down juggy.
As great as Nothing Can Stop was, Juggernaut shouldn’t have many appearances. He just doesn’t have the same impact as the first time, and every time Spidey wins Jugs’ presence is felt less. Look what happened to guys like Rhino, Scorpion, Shocker, and other villains who started off as big obstacles then became jokes later on.
Well shocker wasnt really a big obstacle at first, spidey did beat him with a broken arm in his debut, but he has gotten some impressive wins in spidey's books, and has even had arcs. Rhino was really only a joke for a bit in the 00s but outside of that he's been treated seriusly.
Rhino also got two impressive beat downs on spider-man during that era.
Maybe not Rhino/Scorpion tier, but he’s definitely no joke and gave Spidey a run for his money a few times early on.
Oh for sure, but as a whole he's been potrayed more consitently than those two, the times where he's been played as a joke usually end with him proving why he's a prominent villain rather than reinforcing the joke.
If anything, Shocker's thing is that everyone thinks he's a joke and then remembers the hars way that he's not.
Will Shocker ever get the respect he sorely deserves? Will Scorpion become anything other than a joke?
I liked the USM arc where he captured and tortured Peter
I mean I like him
Shocker was always one of my favorites as a kid. The costume is fun and the gauntlets are bad ass. Every 80s kid loved power gauntlets.
Superior Foes was a fun book, I wish it had gotten a good run
>Will Scorpion become anything other than a joke?
Scorpion’s been a legit threat before, but the problem now is that Peter isn’t allowed to have any enemies that can overpower him, which was Mac’s thing.
The 90s gave him some love though, as did some offshoots in the 00s like Marvel Adventures and Sweet Charity.
Scorpion since that spectacular issue had that thing where they keep changing his costume and upgrading his powers to make him a treath again.
I think its shadow still is there, that and spider-man villains falling into more of a group thing except for the very A listers.
Am a mac fan tho.
Now whenever they do that it just feels like they only “upgrade” him because they don’t know what to do.
The best Mac stories recognize what makes him work as an enemy: Both his thematic opposition to Peter, and the fact that Peter can have all out brawls with Scorpion that showcase Peter’s fast thinking and tenacity.
Well id say that's the same thing that the clone saga story you posted had, which was then repeted with the bryne reboot, and then again with mk, and then again with new ways to die, and then again with big time and then again with superior and then again with the cates run.
I think in general mac's suffered from the fact that they keep trying to make new anti-spideys to capitalize of venom/the gap venom left. That and showing peter just outsmashing him, that took a lot of the winds out of his sails as a villain id say.
> That and showing peter just outsmashing him, that took a lot of the winds out of his sails as a villain id say.
I think that right there is a problem plaguing most of Spidey’s enemies now. They love to stagnate the villains, which doesn’t make any sense. It would make sense for the villains to upgrade or find ways to stay ahead of Spider-Man, not just consistently suck. I’m not talking about Mac’s 500 needless redesigns either, I mean like
where they made sure to answer Spidey’s powercreep.
But then other writers suddenly ignore the upgrades like pic related so they can make Spidey a DBZ character.
I think part of that is also just because most writers just use them as a fill in for a fight rather than characters onto themselves. That and artists want to draw their iconic desings more often than not.
In theory all of gargan's power creeps (except for the one over in cate's book) were made to answer spider-man, it still stands that it becomes too cheap a tactic.
Altough i do still think that they get more respect than any other foes in marvel.
>In theory all of gargan's power creeps (except for the one over in cate's book) were made to answer spider-man, it still stands that it becomes too cheap a tactic.
That theory doesn’t hold water when one upgrade debuted to Spider-Man punching off his jaw, and another one (Byrne) came after Mac was already now a powerhouse and suddenly became weaker with the new outfit.
Well techincally the jaw thing happened like a year after he got that upgrade, but youre not wrong about the bryne one, despite me being pretty nostalgic for the blue outfit.
But did the jaw outfit even do anything at all? The point of an upgrade is to actually make the threat a threat again. The gold plated upgrade did that for sure, as did the Justin Hammer upgrades (which he sadly barely got to use). Mac bodied Ben, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, and Peter in the gold plated suit, which I’d say is perfect,
>despite me being pretty nostalgic for the blue outfit
I hate it. It’s easily his worst design, and like I said felt like a downgrade.
Well during the first fight it did, really because of the spider-sense thing. well the upgrade that's stuck is the acid tail blast thing. Not a fan of the gold design but yeah it was effective.
Its understandable, im just nostalgic for playing the sm2000 game which had that costume.
Yeah its crazy to think Scorpion's whole "deal" for a long time was he was the perfect predator for Spider-man.
Now he's just a joke in a silly suit, when he's not a boring Mexican Cartel boss.
>that Peter isn’t allowed to have any enemies that can overpower him
Is that a thing?
I thought what made the animated series great was that Pete was constantly an underdog in terms of raw strength.
Not that anon but fans act it's a thing. It's irritating.
Started in 90s, never stopped.
That stinks. I always saw Pete as a hero who can struggle to lift a car, in that hes super strong but its not mind blowing strength.
Having to rely on agility and web gadgets is a huge part of his appeal.
I'm with you, but I'd divide it to agility, webbing, the environment, and prep-time.
I like stories where Pete adapts a bit of tech (within reason)/whips up some special webbing to deal with threats.
To clarify 'within reason' : Pete altering his webbing to be (non)conductive/heat resistant? sure!
Tweaking his spider-tracers? Yup!
Building a heat-ray gun? That's a bit much.
The car should be fine. That's 1.4 tons on average and he can lift 10 tons. It's that they consistently expect beyond 10-15 tons when supernatural shit ain't going down that gets me going???
Comics suck at giving their muggle protagonists believable limitations and readers expect more from their human mutates.
>Peter isn’t allowed to have any enemies that can overpower him
have you been reading the latest comic anon? he got beat quickly by tombstone, folded, and begged him an apology, peter get's overpowered plentiful time and doesnt get to shine as much so marvel can keep pushing him as an underdog, and ignore his feats, his rogue gallery maybe treated as a joke apart from goblin and dr octopus but he gets overpowered alot
Weren't a ton of people angry about that?
The issue with the new run is more so that it piles on top of the civvilian status quo being so shitty. If you just have peter being beaten but he isnt forced to degress in his other life no one would have complained as much.
Haven't heard that. Most people I seen have been saying Tombstone can't beat Spider-Man.
I think the context certainly matters. Its a run that people already arent caring about due to that dysmal status that just keeps piling on more misery.
I do like the tombstone bits, but that's really the only part i like.
>Most people I seen have been saying Tombstone can't beat Spider-Man.
Tombstone got a big upgrade in the early 90s that did make him capable of fighting and possibly beating Spider-Man, but he hasn't really mattered as a villain much since the early 90s, anyone who missed those few stories might not know he got that upgrade.
Him having luke cage esque powers have been mentioned pretty heavily since. But it might come to him not having much of a role outside of adaptations.
Spencer forgot about it too.
I remember it being on the run, but it wouldnt suprise me.
Yeah he was suddenly not bulletproof
I remmeber bullets hurting but also him not dying to them. But yeah spencer basically wrote him like how he was characterized earlier in conway's tenure, but as a crime lord.
yeh they're angry but it doesnt mean it didnt happen, what i'm saying is that writers are allowed to have villain overpower spider-man, there's nothing stopping them
>Peter isn’t allowed to have any enemies that can overpower him,
Venom, Carnage and Rhino (and sometimes Norman) are almost always shown as stronger than Peter
Hi Sony. No, we don't want her to have her own movie.
I'd rather she get her own movie than them touching characters i actually like.
OP here, frick SONY and their villain movies. I like Kraven but that doesn't warrant his own film for christ sake
It may not be true for a lot of Spider-Man villains, but I feel like you could absolutely make a good origin story movie for Kraven if you based it on his comic backstory. Sadly if the recent leaks are true the movie Sony want to make is nothing like comic Kraven at all.
That was made up. Person who posted it said so.
I'm surprised nobody's tried to use Yith, she made some random cameo appearances after this and that's it. Snake lady assassin why not, fits in with the prominent animal villain theme
The animal villains tend to have more of a simple name related to their gimmick.
And in general you really only get two or three villains a decade to stick after romita.
The only 2000s villain who stuck was Morlun.
The only 2000s villain who deserved to stick was Gabriel Stacy
Well Morlun and Negative stuck.
True, I forgot Mr Negative had been around that long and wasn't a 2010s villain. Is there any 2010s villain who stuck? It really was a decade-long wasteland for good new characters at Marvel.
Again, probably janice beetle, but she's one of the very very rare transplants spidey got from other characters. Then again being the daugther of another spidey villain does give her an in.
Morlun works if he's just acting as a force of nature who's there to put the fear of god in Peter, the moronic family stuff can frick off. No need for a character or any sympathetic attributes, just an unrelenting torrent of violence.
Yeah, but the whole force of nature aspect only works the first time. But the family is what really bugged him.
Well Hobgoblin probably, or in-universe Jackal. At least mastermind wise.
I kind of wanted to see more of this guy.
He's a non-character who probably never appeared after this but I like his design.
The narration makes it sound like it's just some guy in a costume, but it has to be a robot, unless it's a guy with no legs.
Jenkins and Buckingham had a lot of interesting creations, I wanted to see uber machine again. I'll say it I even liked Typeface- he's supposed to be ridiculous and lame but he had stuff going on beneath it
how dare you?
That's right, Digger being given another shot by another writer is the kind of random revivals I'm talkin about, he has a decent fitting role in the story and it's a nice pull so I appreciate it
Yeah, this is the first time anyone's brought him back, and it's almost 20 years after his debut. It's too soon to tell if he's going to stick past Wells using him.
Digger's story was strong enough to get put in the marvel character handbook, its not a bad achivement.
Idk, i love the dude, rooting for him/them
Being brought once isnt really the same as sticking, sticking is appearing consitently. If digger keeps showing up afterwards then sure he would have stuck.
I "dig" him.
>The only 2000s villain who stuck was Morlun.
There's Screwball, Mr. Negative, Hippo, Kraven's daughter, and Overdrive, if you want to count the late 2000s.
>Screwball
She sorta has, altough mostly outisde of peter's book.
>Mr Negative
Mentioned a few times here.
>Hippo
He was made for Gargan so i wouldnt say he counts, and he's basically just used a stock super-goon.
>Kraven's daugther.
She really didnt stick, they made a whole other son of kraven character because of that. Marvel can never stick to one of them.
>Overdrive
Sure he has.
That'd leave it at 3, and none for the 2010s unless you count janice and miles's uncle for him i guses.
>Kraven's daugther.
>She really didnt stick
I saw that she kind of grew up, it was not explained in any way?
She basically just showed up in scarlet spider (kaine) and then in the inhumans book. Altough she re-appeared for the ending of spencer's run, id still hesitate to say she's really stuck.
But yeah she basically went from like 13 to grown.
>in the inhumans book
Thank you, can you tell me which comic exactly?
All New Inhumans.
personally, i dunno if id counts her. She was meant to be a successor of Kraven the hunter (and used the name proper), so she's not even like carnage and hobgoblin where they're spinoffs and all that.
Thank you!
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Anastasia_Kravinoff_(Earth-616)/Appearances
I mean, one or two years have probably passed since her debut.
Or maybe it's just jungle herbs and Inhuman genes or some shit.
She was 13/14 originally and nowadays she's just treated like an adult.
Thanks, yeah, asking because of this
I think the writers/editors just kinda forgot.
her being made into an inhuman was one of the weirdest choice of the big push they had.
>Kraven's daughter
Remember when they made her an Inhumans character?
he's a hero
That costume is too cool to go to waste, someone should be wearing it, and it should be one of Norman's kids.
Digger as well
Digger's shown up 6 times as a whole, hardly sticking.
Unironically I think Morlun would work as the overarching villain for the MCU college trilogy now that they've established Peter as a universal constant.
Nah, Morlun at best could work for one movie, but not beyond that.
Why Stacy?
It's true, snake lady assassin isn't as clear cut as the classics but I still dig the concept. A bit more use could help their odds, lot of these characters I doubt anybody remembers or would rather use over the big ones if they had the choice.
Fusion was a great few-time use villain in the 2000s but only used by his creator and killed off by his creator.
It's weird thinking the ones that stuck from the 2000s are Morlun and Mr. Negative. Do the 2010s have a new villain that is sticking lol? I can't think of anybody.
Well, when you have acess to the best rouges gallery in the company you usually want to use them rather than the ones more by the wayside.
Fusion was pretty good, yeah.
Yep, there really werent any new ones form the 10s. Maybe janice as beetle? That's the closest i can think of.
The problem with Yith is that there is an entire labor union's worth of snake-themed assassins over in Captain America that also serve as floater villains.
I still say that they need to reveal that White Rabbit is dating Tombstone just so she can lord it over Beetle.
Nah she wants Crime Master.
Wait, were there comics based on MTV series?
Nah, it was just 3d.
That'd be cool but as another anon said, it was just a CG comic. I do kinda get those vibes from a lot of the models. I like that comic, it's a weird early 2000s artifact you'll never get again and I respect it for its weirdness in the catalog of everything. CGI lookin like a kids cartoon with a story that's dark AF for some reason lol
I miss early 00s 3D. There's some charm to it.
I always assumed it's kind of like Cain in Robocop 2. Metal body, human brain.
Despite how much i loathe the BND stuff, i will give credit that the guantlet did give Rhino his cred back after being mostly treated like a dumbass for the 00s. Except for that one Sensational issue i guess.
When will Paper Doll come back?
The 2010s gave us REGENT.... he appeared in the shite 2017 cartoon. So did Clash, even though he looked nothing like his admittedly pretty fun comics design
By sticking we mean long term in the comics themselves, and out of all the adaptations 2017 has one of the shortest reaches.
Clash does have a cool design and as an anti spidey he could work, but he has very little going for him and his powerset is too shocker-y.
Yeah, getting into that show wasn't saying much as it was mostly just pulling a ton from recent Slott stuff. I doubt we'll see much of Regent or Clash again outside of more Slott
Regent seems unlikley, altough his company had a cameo in ps4. I can see a game or something using clash tho.
Weirdly enough the brazillian spectacular comic thing used Clash as their opener villain.
Obligatory White Rabbit post.
This is true, she is good and it's nice she has a pretty frequent presence over the last decade. She's had her renaissance/rise to prominence
Bit weird how she's henching for Tombstone now
Gangster phase.
Her personality is fine but girl needs a wardrobe makeover.
The pretty boy made tornadoes, the girl caused vertigo, and the spikey guy shot spikes.
She's pretty much a vampire, but she's actually a mute good guy, I think? Been a while since I read it.
I didn't have this one, but he's a tech guy. Every 1993 annual introduced a new character, and most of them didn't matter much after the fact.
She teamed up with Puma once.
This story was actually a tie-in to a storyline going on in Moon Knight's book at the same time, and they reappeared there. I don't think they appeared since.
After the story with Puma
mentioned, early in the Clone Saga, I don't think she appeared again.
This guy was supposed to be a new hero, got his own story in an issue of Spider-Man Unlimited, then his own mini, before disappearing for years, he eventually returned in a small background role in Avengers: The Initiative.
Freak is underused. I like the idea of a stupid junkie having basically doomsday powers where he comes back immune to whatever kills him by mutating an animal trait. Great potential for a chaotic evil villain and a pretty interesting arc. Plot could be a smarter villain who captures Freak on the promise of giving him drugs in exchange for experimenting on him. What the do is try to implant devices in him to control him and kill him over and over and over again in varying ways to make him more and more invincible and powerful. Basically turning him into an unstoppable superweapon. Said villain then sends Super Freak out to kill spider-man, however, it turns out that by continually killing him and regenerating him and having him evolve new traits Freak has evolved the trait of being able to evolve new traits on the fly to stimuli (no death/regen required) and his body evolves to reject the control devices. At this point freak has totally lost his mind his mental capacity is little more than an extremely angry animal. Now you have this insane monstrosity rampaging through new york with a bunch of built in resistances AND the ability to evolve a new resistance to whatever you throw at it
Just put a box laced with crack on a catapult and when he gets on it, launch him into a supermax prison.
Dunno, he feels a bit I'll fitting for spidey. But that's a good idea.
OKAY ANON, Its me amy pascal of sony pictures. After the cultural phenomenom that was Sony picture's morbius we want to take the SpMCU to the next level. We want you to pick a spider-man villain to base a movie off. No variation of spider-man is allowed to appear in movie just his villains.
Cardiac's design is cool but its hard to keep him as a villain for long because insurance companies absolutely deserve it and a vigilante doctor just works too well for a hero not a villain. maybe sony should give him a shot instead of kraven the hunter.
so many "spider-man villains do the Mayor thing now adays but we never see any love for richard releigh. Hell he's never appeared in anything. Cool character, The story line in the comics is similar to the dark knight with spider-man hiding that the mayoral candidate was secretly a villain because he believes in what releigh stood for
>cardiac
What? His power is to have heart attacks? Get stuck when his peace maker got nearby MRI machines? Seriously, that name is awful...
Why not make Cardiac a full anti-villain with heavy emphasis on anti? He means well, actually wants and does do good, but he does so with medical stuff he steals (and has a far better use for them as well uses them to the fullest when treating patients).
Black Cat
BUEL IS BEST
Friendly reminder Kindred could've been an actually usable villain and not just a device to get rid of MUH Sins Past if they had made her just Sarah and leaned into her anger at being Norman's true heir while still being discarded because she wasn't a boy. Not in the sense of some feminist bullshit, but old-school "I am much more competent than them so why am I ignored".
If Spencer had planned it that way from the start, it really could have worked, and made her into a new villain that could have lasted beyond that one run, and even if it did end with her dying, would still have allowed Harry and Gabriel to continue to be viable characters.
I'm not going to blame the kindred padding all on Spencer. There's clear editorial frickery afoot
Oh for sure, but deciding to center your run on a big mystery like that given the precedent isnt the wisest move.
I'm willing to believe that editorial bears it's share of the blame for the Kindred saga, and that the decision that Kindred was Sarah and Gabriel instead of Harry was a decision made very late in the run, but this isn't the first time Spencer wrote a lengthy, convoluted storyline that disintegrated into a confusing, unsatisfying mess where nobody understands what was happening. He's not blameless, and most people have learned from it to not read any future books by him, just as much as we've learned that Lowe must go.
The way I read it is that Spencer really wanted to wrap up his story but editorial/Lowe kept asking for more padding. That's why everything from there to now feels like a waste of time, Lowe wants those 60th anniversary and #900 sales. Spencer also wanted to address the OMD elephant in the room but clearly Lowe had other plans, hence why Harry's soul was suddenly the Doctor Strange gamble contradicting the previous issue
I feel Spencer just wanted it to be Harry, but it being so elongated, the omd thing being nixed and it having to be tha payoff to a big issue made it so it ended up what it was at the end of the day.
Eh, the padding kicks in and the writing falls apart as early as Last Remains.
Spencer clearly intended it to actually be Harry at that point, but Peter starts acting like a complete moron. He acts like Harry's having a Goblin relapse whilst his ex-BFF is possesing Spider people and raising the dead.
I'm still mad about that writing, even with how it gets eclipsed by the later bullshit.
jij
Hey, to be fair Peter lives in the Marvel universe and is friends with Mutants. That is exactly whay a relapse can look like sometimes.
the guantlet saga
So what's your guy's thoughts on the Green Goblin?
Spider-Man has the best gallery of female villains is curious that they are better than the villains of Carol Danvers and Wonder Woman
New villain
What the frick was her problem?
She's insecure because Black Cat beat her and she's constantly compared to Gargan
No dick/pussy.
Scorpia likes it sweaty and violent
>Silvermane was a discord mod all along
Sounds like my kinda woman
Where the hell has Wraith/Watannabe been lately?
In the PS4 game
I want a Queen Gobin/Goblin Queen teamup so bad.
In a fight right?
>Spider-man and Frogman enter the White Rabbit
mmf threesomes are pretty gay.
Only if you forget to say no homo
>Gobbed up women all dress like massive bawds
what does this say about Norman?
Norman dresses like a bawd too, you see all that leg he shows off?
Scandalous.
Nothing curious because no female hero has any good villains.
Shriek is shit, though. Just a boring BPD groupie to Carnage.
most female villains are shit beside their breasts
Posted all those chicks yet you forgot about her.
Gal doesn't even have an actual name, sad.
See this is what I'm still waiting for and surprised Spencer wasn't the one to tackle it: Panda-Mania getting a name, backstory, and of course characterization
If Doc Ock, Norman and the mob bosses are all indisposed, who's leading the Sinister Six, anons?
Who's the just-below-the-big-three level among Spidey rogues? I can't imagine anyone taking orders from Rhino or Hydro-Man. Vulture? Electro? Mysterio?
Outside of that one Sinister Twelve story, Norman isn't usually involved with the Sinister Six. When Otto was dead in the 90s, Hobgoblin (Macendale, not Kingsley) stepped up as leader, though IIRC Vulture was pretty salty about it. There was a late 90s story where the Sinister Six were hired to fight Otto, and the group seemed to be led by Sandman, they were really pushing his return to villainy hard back then. Both times Mysterio was working with the group but had his own agenda, rather than wanting to lead.
Should they bring back Miss Arrow?
No
Not a Spider-Man villain exactly but a Silk villain related to Ezekiel
Spider-Man 2099's ex girlfriend/baby momma, Spider-Wasp
Screwball was a villain I admittedly did a complete 180 on. At first glance I thought she was complete trash, but the more I thought about her the more I came to realize she fit right in as a Spidey rogue, albeit a minor annoyance.
>Live streaming will always be relevant, and some self-centered dumb b***h trying to make a name/money off superhero culture makes complete sense for this universe.
>People, especially Marvel citizens, are dumb enough to support her
>Trash talker that completely throws off Peter because he's normally the one running his mouth. It takes one of his quirks/psychological weapons, and turns it against him.
>Puzzle/Trap villain now legitimately dangerous thanks to some training from Arcade.
The new costume was also severely needed
These conversations are always fun: fix Scorpion
Gonna say the exact same thing I always do when I see this brought up.
>emphasize his PI past, actually show him stalking his victims waiting to strike when they're at their most vulnerable
>make him a physical threat and not a jobber
>ramp up the crazy, his scheme in Spider-Man TAS of turning NY into a nuclear wasteland just for a possible chance to cure himself of the procedure side effects was a fine example of what I mean
>at least try to tone down "hahaha Scorpion is a loser, what a joke" humor in-universe and treat him seriously
Scorpion got fricked over by Venom
Venom hasn't been a Spider-Man villain in a long time. Gargan with Venom symbiote could've actually been threatening if the writers cared about that, but Millar and everyone who used the character just hit the exact same shore of "Gargan is lame lmao"
Id say Millar used it well at least within his debut, but afterwards he was just written as Osborn's angry lapdog.
Millar probably should have made Gargan becoming the new Venom the comics equivalent of a post-credits scene at the end of his story, instead of putting it at a point in the story where he was just playing the role of a sub-boss Peter had to rush through quickly to get to the real villain.
The big problem afterwards was Norman's Thunderbolts and then Dark Avengers were showing up in every other book to fight most of Marvel's heroes, with nobody in editorial protecting him or insisting he be made to look strong, and that meant him getting beaten up a lot, and by a lot of people who had no business beating him.
Yeah, altough the venom stuff itself wasnt super needed for gargan, since gargan knowing peter's identitiy would have already made him higher on the totem pole.
Maybe angelo should have been venom for longer instead.
Oh and agreed, he became too much of a larger MU villain.
>Oh and agreed, he became too much of a larger MU villain.
This wasn't the problem for Gargan, or Norman, the problem was the status quo needed the Thunderbolts and then the Dark Avengers to remain in place as an ongoing threat, but literally everyone got to take their turn at beating them up. These guys should have been winning battles and dominating the heroes they fought, up until the event story where they finally get taken down. Instead they just keep losing all the time for years but somehow hold on to their position of power.
Gargan got some great characterization out of his time as Venom, particularly in his Sinister Spider-Man mini, he sadly just got beat up far too much while he was Venom, and it perpetuated people thinking of him as a loser. Even at the end of Dark Reign, Gargan himself is cast aside easily, taking the symbiote down was the real battle.
I think it was part of the problem with both for me it prevented their new roles from really cementing themselves in spidey's world. Do however agree that getting beaten too much was an issue.
They could have tried to play it as Norman and Gargan's new roles meant they needed to try and outgrow their old roles and old obsessions, and have their failure to do so play into their defeat in some way, instead of them respectively getting taken down easily by Tony and Carol.
The first Thunderbolts fight with Spider-Man came far too late, there should have been something during the Civil War or Back in Black eras when Peter's identity was public.
Imagine Norman being massively upset that Peter revealed his identitiy and thus broke off their little game, or garganom upset that he cant even use what he learnt, that would have been a good beat.
Gargan getting literally cast aside during Siege worked because of the discrepancy in power between him and Carol, the issue was him being treated as a jobber beforehand. If the prior 3 years had treated Mac like the threat he should be then the anticlimax would have felt earned, and been a nice callback and parallel to the Venom/Swordsman fight in Thunderbolts.
Gargan shouldn't even have been fighting Carol in the final battle at all, it's such a random match up in the first place. Gargan's time as the new Spider-Man should have ended with a big battle against Peter, and Carol's battle should have been against Moonstone, instead of that being dealt with earlier in her own book.
>it's such a random match up in the first place.
Well, he was her first solo villain.
I did like Venom Mac's dynamic as a junkie addicted to the prestige the symbiote gave him while simultaneously being disgusted and afraid of it with the symbiote characterized as his abusive drug dealer.
That was a good beat yeah.
I do like mac venom more than most, but he suffers from not actually getting to interact with spidey much
Sinister spider-man was a fun book tho.
He used it horribly. He immediately made Mac Venom a joke, and that’s ridiculous.
This guy
With the Symbiote should be a full on problem. But for whatever reason, writers made him somehow weaker than Eddie.
Nice cope
Isn't your pic related Flash? I agree that Millar mistreated Gargan though.
>Venom hasn't been a Spider-Man villain in a long time
I get that but Eddie's debut really fricked up Gargan's cred. Think about it: Venom was pushed as the "Anti-Spider-Man", has similar roots with J Jonah, and hell Gargan even wore the symbiote at one point
I would agree with that. Venom replaced Scorpion as the anti spider-man.
So the solution is to revamp gargan and make the anti spidey stuff more apparent, and give him at least one big story.
>at least try to tone down "hahaha Scorpion is a loser, what a joke" humor in-universe and treat him seriously
This needs to be absolutely mandatory for any villain who wasn't intentionally created as a joke comedy villain like White Rabbit, Walrus or Hippo. Especially if it's not even meant to be a comedy story and the writer is just trying to make some villain look like a loser because he dislikes them, or thinks effortlessly beating up a loser makes a hero somehow look good.
Give him a cooler design. Maybe give him eight cyber eyes or something. It's a start.
One-shot comic where Peter gets stuck with his tail and has to fight him off while delirious and wracked with agony. Establish him as a physical threat.
I don't care if Cinemaphile hates me, but the Insomniac designs are the best "real world setting" takes on these bad guts. Trumps any movie design they've had, that's for sure. I'm curious what their take on Green Goblin will look like
Going off just the ones that have movie appearences to their name.
>Ock
Looks great in ps4 outside of the haircut, but i dont think there's anything wrong with raimi having had him in a trenchoat, Ock's work stuff like that a lot, he did so in his second and third appearance. Tights are generally just ill fitting for him.
>Electro
Looks like shit. He looks like what a cheap CW show would do rather than give him a proper costume. About on the same level as tasm2's awful design. NWH managed to do the whole "casual costume referncing the classic" thing better.
>Vulture
Both make Vulture's wings insanely big and make them propelled which affects his powers but both also added somethin on vulture's face.
>Rhino
Ps4 certainly takes the cake there, but more so because the competition is so abysmal.
>Shocker
The mask is abysmal, i dont see why they couldnt give him his classic mask at all. Movie did the same shit.
Most of the desings are just made with the exact same philosphies and so they have a lot of the same issues imo.
Cat's costume is shit tho.
The trench coat is a meme to me. I applaud the game for bringing back his radiation suit and playing towards his roots.
I will defend the frick out of Insomniac Electro's suit. EVERY detail is a nod towards his classic look. I can go into more detail and break it down if you like. Way better than both movie Electros by a mile
Vulture's is also great and the beak mask serving as thematic spin on a life support oxygen mask is fantastic.
Game Shocker is aces whereas Homecoming didn't even try.
The tights werent there originally. The green and yellow outfit debuted at the end of the ditko run, before that he started with a lab outfit, then he wore sweater for a while. I do really like ps4 Ock's design mind you, just saying that they're both about on par for me. Do love that the arms are black and yellow like SSM (and hell the costume itself resembles the one from the show without the trenchcoat the most).
It looks beyond cheap, and id rather see them use the actual outfit rather than a shitty reference tbh. And the whole "scars instead of mask" thing was cheap when the comics did it and its cheap here. And the grey tech over it is just boring. At least nwh's shitty tech over the costume was less intrusive design wise.
I mean, yeah, but saying "it did something" isnt the same as it being good.
Did like those suckers on the arms.
Spec also had a compromise.
There is no rhyme or reason to NWH Electro's design besides the blink and you'll miss it reference to the star mask. Insomniac Electro's design has thought put into it with every detail, here's how:
>The scars (which has a comic precedent) which you already mentioned and personally disliked, which is fine.
>Color palette remains classic green and yellow, unlike both movie Electros.
>The zigzag outline in the interior of the jacket overlayed on the yellow shirt invoke the lightning bolt suspenders in the original design.
>Entire design gives off the blue collar criminal and Max's lineman roots.
I know everyone is quick to shit on any Electro design that lacks the mask but I can't in good consciousness crap on this one
I'm not saying its a good design either, just that its less shit. Those are two different things.
Yeah, still looks insanely cheap. Which is something you can see truoght the concept art, the aim was never to adapt his costume, it was to radically redesign him, with the little nods added after that was said and done. Makes him look the worst out of the game's villains.
>Scars
They looked boring in the comics too, by that logic electro being a naked electricity man has precedent in the comics too, as does him wearing a white and blue outfit.
>Color pallete
It also adds an ugly grey all over it with the machine
>Blue collar criminal
Maybe, but his in-game backstory doesnt even support that since its implied in the bugle stuff that he was a mob enforcer type figure.
I like it, just not for Ock.
Same anon btw.
Josh keaton voicing him was neat tho (even if id rather would have had him as spidey). Makes him the 3rd spider-man VA to voice electro.
The concept art there has far weaker depictions compared to what we got. I still give respect to the guy who gave us the end result, which kept the original in mind with every creative decision he made. But you do you.
>Maybe, but his in-game backstory doesnt even support that since its implied in the bugle stuff that he was a mob enforcer type figure.
No you're confusing him with Scorpion, who owed a lot of money to mobsters
Concept art is intresting because it shows what the mindset when designing was, and with electro it shows that the first thing wasnt to adapt the look faithfully but to give him tech on top. And its the same guy that did the top stuff. The last design with a slightly different color scheme is basically what we got.
No no, im talking about the daily bugle stuff, one of them mentions Electro being his first villain that he fought due to a mobster thing.
The scorpion thing is the motivation, which with all 4 of the "lesser" six were incredibly underbaked and only relevant in the glorified exposition dump.
I feel like you’re bending over backwards to take the wind out of my sails to say “No that wasn’t the intent” like I’m wrong to like it. Which if that isn’t your directive and I’ll retract. We can only comment on the end result
Oh no that's not my intent. Im sorry if it comes off that way. I simply wanted to say why i think its always fun to look at concept art,
I do think we can comment on concept art too, sometimes its better sometimes its widely worse.
Like for example i really like the 5th design here for Rhino.
I also feel that sometimes ps4 gets a bit overpraised for specific stuff so i tend to want to talk about what i think it didnt do as well that isnt usually mentioned.
Then again that's mostly outside of Cinemaphile so.
But yeah my intent isnt to be angry at you if you like anything :).
5th is too mechanized for my liking. I like what we ended up with
I like the final design, even if the exposed muscles are a bit funky for me. I feel it kinda defeats the point a bit.
At the end of the day Rhino is supposed to be a gamma serum infused human mixed with next gen armor. Too much armor and we would forget the man underneath and lean more towards that robot shit Ultimate did
I actually wish the original Tarantula got a makeover. I think he'd be great with prosthetic blade legs like Gazelle from Kingsman
Im pretty sure the game went with the powers just coming from the armor. Most things forget the gamma stuff. At most you get the armor being potrayed as not being metallic/robotic.
>Im pretty sure the game went with the powers just coming from the armor.
Anon he's 12 fricking ft tall without the armor on. They clearly remembered he's treated too
While i would be inclined to agree, the game also makes it a point of him never being shot on the exposed skin and that ock's quid pro pro is removing the armor. Which spidey describes as what gives him his powers.
I think you're reading too much into it, Anon. Given the guy's size, and the body required to support such a heavy suit, it's clearly a show not tell thing. The armor is only one half of what makes Aleksi The Rhino. He wanted the suit off because he got tired of being labeled as such, just wanting the benefits of the treatment
Eh maybe you're right. Rhino is one of my favorite looking in the game anyways :P.
They should’ve gone a little wilder with Electro’s outfit. This version struck me as someone who would spray paint a lightning bolt onto his shirt or something like that cause he thinks it looks cool
Agreed. It comes off very 2000s ina way.
They're just hydra/aim for the street heroes at this point. But without even some cool leader characters.
I will defend the compromise between the Raimi trenchcoat and the green jumpsuit.
My only problem with the Insomniac designs is the blatant overuse of tech laced with LEDs
That's their main bread and butter. Did you see the miles game?
Okay, but which existing villains would fit right into the tech laced with LEDs aesthetic?
While i woudlnt like it, the goblins would end up like that no matter what.
Mysterio too.
And the villains who get their powers due to tech usually.
Hell, I played the Miles game. All the Tinkerer stuff was that LED aesthetic dialled up to 11
Sidenote, but the story of the Miles game was really fricking lame. I predicted every twist from the instant the plot was laid out, and it was just so damn generic. I didn't even think it was possible for a story to be so generically generic
I played it too, it was honetly much more boring than the first.
The plot is just the first ps4 game repeated, but with miles. Its bad enough ps4 kinda repeated itself but this is a bit too much.
Let's talk about The Tinkerer for a minute. Was this a good new take on the character? Does original Tinkerer offer anything these days? When's the last time we saw him?
Tinker is a great support villain, he makes the tech for the other villains and he doesnt really need to be at the forefront.
Miles's game tinkerer was just an OC, there's no reason why she has to be named Tinkerer. Hell making her an OC would give Miles some much needed villains.
She technically is an OC creation because her brother has the same name as original Tinkerer. Also if I'm being brutally honest here, regular Tinkerer in 616 is just Toomes without the bird theme
I mean giving her a unique villain name rather than saying she's tinkerer when all she has in common is the last name and using tech.
Eh he has a different role from thoomes. He really just looks like him, which is something you could argue about a lot spidey villains tbh. The one who is totally redundant is harrow, who is just tinkerer but never used
But my point is that what can you do with Tinkerer that half a dozen Spidey villains don't already do? He's just an old man who occasionally sells his wares to crooks. Though maybe we could do like a Geppetto thing where Insomniac Tinkerer is just an android "child". I don't know. I'm just trying to think of new ways to make Tinkerer interesting
Thats literally a entire story arc he went through in the 80s, bruh you gotta read what you wanna critisize
He did the gepetto thng, that was his gimmick. He's also far more professional than the rest of spidey's villains who are usually either thugs or totally megalomaniacal. He's more pragmatic than them.
Most spider-man villains are tech geniuises. Hell if anything vulture's gimmick of being the one that flies is totally outshadowed by the goblins who can fly and do extra shit on top.
And sometimes being someone more in the background is good, that's a good villain role.
Tinkerer isn't a villain, he's a setting element related to the villains. Also if you're trying to figure out how to make Insomniac Tinkerer work, 616 Tinkerer canonically has children and grandchildren.
Yeah, and he'sa solid element there.
I get the pragmatic thing and not every villain needs to be a city wide threat. I'm just pointing out if given the choice people are naturally going to gravitate more towards Toomes, Octavius, Norman, or hell maybe even Smythe.
I dont really see a dude like shocker or the orb going to smythe
Because Shocker should be smart enough to maintain his gear. He built it after all.
I’ve always thought it was badass Shocker made his gear in prison
Octavius and Norman are far too big for the type of stuff Tinkerer is usually geared for. Toomes could fit that role in adaptations but he's more of a hands on type. And the smyhtes have filled that role in adaptations but if anything tinkerer has more going to him in the comics proper.
Well, he's a pragmatic businessman who could set up dozens of new villains easily. There is the original Hobgoblin selling the identities of old, established, dead villains. Could lead to an interesting black market war as the two try to make themselves the only name in the market.
Theyre nothing alike past being old, thats like saying theres no diff between chameleon and Kraven because theyre both russians who pretemded to be spider-man for a bit
>Theyre nothing alike past being old
And being tech geniuses. Which again, Toomes at least has a solid gimmick beyond that. I'm not shitting on Tinkerer, just merely pointing out he kind of falls into the background because his talents.
I liked him in Web of Shadows. He was a cool little cameo in Homecoming, I hope he makes a comeback in something
>Rolls up on Spider-Man
>Beats him up and rips his mask off as a trophy for Fortunato and Rose
>Doesn't even care who's under the mask
Black Tarantula was based
>Black Tarantula
What the frick was his problem
Wife took the kid
I read this one as a kid and thought it was the most hardcore shit ever. Whatever happened to him?
Since we're on the subject of Scorpion, it always bothered me that in Amazing Spider-Man movie game it's hinted that Scorpion is bonded with Venom but you really wouldn't know that unless you bothered with reading in-game character bios.
Wonder whether that was just a cutesy nod to comics or something left out from earlier development and was supposed to play a bigger role during the encounters with him.
Cheeky nod. Just like the name being M(y) A(mazing) C(reation).
But you could argue the poison it shoots derives from the venom symbiote, and carnage is in the sequel.
I don’t know about you guys but I’m a big fan of the Superior Octopus suit
Oh no I totally get the appeal of the suit. It slaps. Kind of wish it stuck around longer than it did, be it hero or villain Ock
What's the best look for Alistair Smythe, and why are the TAS spider-slayers the best versions?
I still find it odd that tas used smythe so much when he was such a non character before. Like he appeared more often than the vast majority of the A-listers.
Regarding the look, i like both his 90s and modern one, something which uses his 90s one as a base but more obviously tech-y would be neat.
And idk, i think the spider-slayers work best when there's a direct JJ connection.
Symthe is this weird character wherein he's a nondistinctive mad scientist, sometimes rented out to other villains, famous for just making random robots all classified under Spider-Slayers. Sometimes he's this weird mutant too, with occasional spider likeness. The guy is really in need of a rework to remain consistent moving forward.
And I don't know, I just think the spider looking Slayers look the best. Just say that JJ funded the program initially just like Scorpion
Before TAS he had appeared like 4 times. Once as a fat guy who tought MJ was spider-man, then he target spidey while MJ was meeting her dad for the first time since she was young and then the final one was in the invasion of the spider-slayers mini event where he became a cyborg.
Oh i guess i agree. Altough we've gotten spider-looking slayers in the comics before TAS, the black widow one originated there too.
Oh I know we had the black widow model before, I just think it's the coolest variant over random TV faced robots. Do you guys want to come up with a new "definitive" look for Smythe?
Ah fair enough., i do like the idea of him getting cyber spider-esque powers given his name and all.
I like the weird TAS design. It's something that would be horribly unpleasant to look at in real life with the extra appendages covered in stretched out skin and deformed feet. I'd personally make it so that he could "retract" his modification and pass as normal with the right clothing. Give him a low-key body horror/uncanny valley look when he's in action.
I like the idea of having the Spider-Slayer’s be gigantic robot spiders. Like Smythe was sitting in his office going “What can effectively kill a spider?… ANOTHER SPIDER!”
Spidey villain threads are usually so comfy. Why are there so many anons b***hing and moaning in here?
I dont think im b***hing. Just talking. its all pretty civil.
When you play that design realistically it does look kinda creepy.
Yeah, I think making him look too overtly robotic ruins things by making him just another cyborg.
Bro this is the most chill Spidey thread we've had in recent memory. The frick have you been?
This Swarm is pretty cool
Cool design. But the character is way too dated to work in any serious capacity. Turning him into a swarm of nanites was probably the best way to modernize him.
A nazi bee swarm would only work in something like Superior Foes. I havent read his issues of Antman though.
Nothing everything needs to be edge, a nonsensical idea played straight can be a lot of fun
How the frick is Swarm dated?
An undead Nazi scientist made out of bees could potentially be horrifying, but Swarm being a Nazi is irrelevant outside of his origin and he is rarely portrayed as anything more than a run-of-the-mill bank robber type.
They were both created by JrJr.
My issue is what does he bring to the table that Sandman doesnt already do better?
Being a twat probably.
Seems like something bees would do
Around 20 years ago there was this Spider-Man story that IIRC was NOT pubkished in ASM (but I may be wrong), that featured a villain who died after he exploded, revealing himself to be a robit filled with ink. I thought the villain was named Squid, but after googling Squid seems to be a different character from the same era.
Does anyone know who this villain is? I think Nick Fury (or at least some guy with an eyepatch) appeared at the end of the story but again I may be wrong.
The Painter of 1000 Perils?
He once exploded into bugs, which looked like black blobs that I could be mistaken for ink.
You're probably talking about a guy named Fusion who got beat half to death and covered in oil by Doc Ock. At the end of the arc Fury shows up and thanks Peter for destroying a satellite.(Peter Parker: Spider-Man Vol 1 #38-41)
Frick you, Spider-Man! I blame you for what I've become! This tail is up my ass!
>Why is your ass so high up Gargan?!
>Mac's tail is just a giant mechanical colostomy bag
My fave is Tarantula.
I dislike all this Tinkerer slander.
>Slander
You need to read the thread again
Nah im good
Black Tarantula>Tarantula.
Theyre totally differnt characters, but your sub-par taste is fine
Just saying one is better for the tarantula name than the other.
Yeah, its the origonal Tarantula, the og has the leaping, Black doesnt have any spider themed abilities or motif's beyond a cool mask.
Eh he has the stenght and acrobatics as well. And the red tarantulas (for lack of a way of differentiating them) are even more detached from spider-man, they'd really fit captain america much much more.
Every good/bad guy has that, please remind me which type of spiders have eye lasers lmao
>captain America
Funny youbmention that, Tarantual was designed as a anti Captain America in the first place. How are they detached tho? Its pretty for Spider to have some more merc type villains, the only other one to really stick around was Chance
Ignore the bad spelling its 2am in my country
Which spiders have feet knives? And which spiders have a 6th sense that warns them of danger?
Yeah that's why i mention it, he would be perfect as an enemy of Cap. Everything about him is more designed around that than spider-man. Kind of a similar thing to Sable, she really should be a cap character frankly.
By detached i mean that there really isnt much that ties him to spider-man thematically, basically just that he has a spider-name. I think that's why bt takes the edge for me, The family angle parells peter well (especially since he was introduced during the time mayday had just died). And on a totally biased note i just feel the tarantula name should be used for a bigger villain (totally fine to disagree with me there kek).
>Which spiders have feet knives?
The cool ones do.
Is Silver Sable even a villain, i remember even in her earliest appearences she was a c**t but never really doing anything that awful, slap a sheild badge on her and nobody would bat an eye.
When did bt last appear even? I remember thinking it was odd he wasnt in the mobster meetings in the current spider run, but madame masque is??
But you get my point right, that its kind of a general thing.
Oh not as a villain, just as a spidey character in general, i feel she's kind of out of place. At most she works when you underplay the whole queen/nazi hunter thing and just have her as a merc. (Its probably why i think the spec version is the most fitting for spidey stuff). But as is she'd be perfect for Cap's stuff.
Bt's last appearence of note was in brubaker's DD run where he's in jail at first for some reason but gets a lot of attention. He's depowered significantly but he was treated with a lot of respect. Afterward's he's basically just done cameo tier stuff like appearing in hunted and stuff.
He was mentioned here.
Well relative respect, he was treated as conmpetent but other characters kept understimating him.
Tinkerer is too op for my liking
Jonas Harrow. Why nobody remember Jonas Harrow? He had a such dramatic way to push buttoms
Forgot pic
>it wasn't enough for some editor to order Macendale killed
>we need to have someone call him a loser as well and pretend he was noticeably worse at fighting than a guy better known for being a mastermind
>literally all the scene needed was to just say they had observably different fighting styles
I don't know whether this is Stern's fault or the editor's, but you can feel the seething.
Wasn't Macendale ex-spec ops, ex-CIA?
Doesn't make sense that a fashion designer would be a better fighter as a general rule either.
I liked Macendale. I wouldn't mind him brought back, but not as Hobgoblin.
He was a marine, then a CIA field agent, then a merc. As Jack O'Lantern, he fought Kingsley to a draw. Trying to push that he was an amateur at fighting is nonsense, and just reads like someone's petty dislike of the character.
I think there'd be another fandom revolt like with Phil Urich if Marvel tried to make anyone else be the Hobgoblin again, but when even Spidercide came back this year, Macendale deserves another shot.
A merc who had to hire other mercs at times to do his dirty work. And again, fighting skill never seems to really matter in-universe.
Macandale is alive still, he was ressurected back in dead no more. Thing is, he's not particularly popular. He's not particularly unpopular either, but he's just that he's that other hobgoblin for most fans.
Hell even Mackie the writer that liked macandale the most, had most characters call him an amaterur derisively and even had ben reilly say he was nothing compared to Osborn.
>A merc who had to hire other mercs at times to do his dirty work.
The point of that Sinister Syndicate story was meant to be delegating non-profit fights to other mercs he'd hired, so he could concentrate on his actual paying work. But somehow it got spun against him in a way this kind of plot doesn't for other villains.
>Macandale is alive still, he was ressurected back in dead no more.
They never actually identified whether that Jack O'Lantern was him or one of the others.
You're omitting that he actually beat Ben pretty badly in their first fight.
I somewhat recall reading an issue where he was going full Rambo on (I think) Rose's henchmen as a test and then fighting Moon Knight to a draw.
Maybe Macendale should be an MK villain.
Macandale has gotten to beat goons a lot, but that's kind of it. He did have the same issue Garnom had, he was put against so many greater MU heroes that his status kinda decreased.
Hell that'd work, both were mercs at some point.
He absolutely was a worse fighter than Kingsley just looking at what they've done in-universe. He was potrayed so over and over and over. As the hobgoblin he was little more than a goon, even during his most impressive moments he was someone serving the intrests of other people. And even Defalco had him potrayed as Hobgoblin's lesser.
Jason was ex Cia, but at the same time fighting skill never seems to matter with villains. Spidey's most dangerous villains are an industraliast in his 50s and an overweight scientist. And the rest really are just street thugs fighting skill wise. Its really just the superpowers/intelligence carrying them mostly.
>He absolutely was a worse fighter than Kingsley just looking at what they've done in-universe. He was potrayed so over and over and over.
The "who is Hobgoblin" mystery meant Kingsley had a lot more plot armor than other Spider-Man villains, and had to always be allowed to get away, but he wasn't winning many of his battles, because he seldom fought anyone but Peter. He was portrayed as a higher-tier villain because of being an evil genius mastermind who kept getting away with it, not because of "being a better fighter". When not fighting Peter, Macendale actually scored a number of wins, but the whole "not muh Hobgoblin" fandom is autistically fixated on the writers who tried to make him look bad being the only issues that count.
>And even Defalco had him potrayed as Hobgoblin's lesser.
DeFalco had them fight to a draw. It was Priest, after DeFalco was fired, who made him look worse.
>at the same time fighting skill never seems to matter with villains.
This is fair, but calling attention to something a character is supposed to be good at and saying they're bad at it just comes across as someone working on the book disliking that character and being petty. As stated above, all that scene needed him to say was that it was obvious there were two different Hobgoblins because they had different fighting styles.
Eh, being a bigger villain to a more high profile hero just means the villain has a higher status in universe, just look at the bat villains for an example. Macandale only won twice against peter, once with the demon powers and once right after he got powers outside of that he was mostly outclassed, we can blame the writers for this but at the end of the day that affects his perception. He was written as a shocker type and that's just not very impressive for someone wearing a mantle inspired by the archenemy. Y'know?
Defalco still had Macandale portrayed as being tiers below him as a villain, i do agree that it was priest that ramped it up, but kind of evolved from that dynamic of him seeing himself as a tad lesser which was there.
Eh, for a merc that's still bad optics.
I remember him being called macandale at a point. That or one of the hobgoblins we see.
No, he beat Ben in his second fight alongside Cell 5 the time he was a cyborg. The first time he fought ben , scarlet just roasted him and he was angry.
Not that anon, but Tombstone and croc were created by conway as african americans with a skin conditions and filled teeth who were bullied due to it and thus turned to a life as a mob enforcer with aspirations of becoming a crime lord with a connection to a member of the supporting cast. They just evolved differently over time.
>No, he beat Ben in his second fight alongside Cell 5 the time he was a cyborg. The first time he fought ben , scarlet just roasted him and he was angry.
Are you talking about that Funeral for an Octopus mini where Ben took on Macendale, Vulture, Mysterio and Electro at once? He may have made jokes about them, but that fight didn't work out too well for him, they pinned him down and dropped a roof on him.
Thats just Blackheart with breasts.
I want to take this opportunity to apologize for the drunken ramblings I posted regarding Norman Osborn on the Slott thread. Thankfully, even inebriated, I had the presence of mind not to post everything I'd written. I leave now in shame. I'll see most of you next storytime.
Ah dw anon.
And what hadnt you posted i wonder.
Bring back Calypso.
They will bring her because of film Or we will see her in the Lost Hunt by DeMatteis
Lost hunt should be kino.
>Bring back Calypso.
I remember the last time they brought her back in a 90s annual, and she got killed again so soon afterwards. I always assumed someone at Marvel had forgotten she was dead, and greenlit a story with her in, ending with Kraven's son killing her, so they rushed out a resurrection story just so they could kill her again.
Surprised they haven't already, given her whole thing was "spoopy voodoo lady."
Of course, they already killed and brought her back once.
Are many of Spider-Man's main villains knock-offs of other Rogues Galleries? If not, why not?
....Huh?
I am, what they call, a filthy casual. I've read posters who claim Spider-Man villains steals concepts from other villains and call it homages.
I don't know who the frick said that or what characters they're even referring to. I can't think of one ripping off another's rogues gallery
I've seen it on Twitter frequently lol
Yeah I don't know what the hell you're talking about. Can you name an example?
Cletus and Norman are different tales on different versions of the Joker. Tombstone is Killer Croc. Black Cat is Catwoman. Doctor Octopus is Lex Luthor before a retcon that made him a businessman. The list goes on but I've read many comparisons?
Sorry in advance. Not trying to be a b***h. The above is what I've heard?
You have to understand Joker's characterization has been in flux since his inception. He wasn't always the murder happy wacko you know him as today. Goblin was always off his rocker.
>Tombstone and Croc
Are comparable how?
>Black Cat and Catwoman
I'd argue Catwoman stole Felicia's characterization really.
>Doc Ock and Lex
Now that is just silly
Thanks for the answer. I'm always seeing comments about it as someone said on Twitter and comic book articles so it's confusing as someone who doesn't pirate comics and doesn't have the money to buy them.
>Are comparable how?
Black thugs with weird skin conditions, I guess?
Both created by gerry conway, both who started out as mob enforcers with aspirations of becoming a crime lord.
They really only became different after conway stopped writing them
>He wasn't always the murder happy wacko you know him as today. Goblin was always off his rocker.
Funnily Goblin/Norman seems to predate the Joker and Luthor in schtick in both comparisons.
Sorry, I'm asking because I'm curious. I've noticed accusations enough that it seems odd that nobody addresses it...
All I can think of is how Cletus Kasady was originally drawn to look like the Joker in his earliest appearances.
When I was a kid, I owned the Marvel Encyclopedia for Spider-Man. When I got to Shathra's page I was shocked it was so small because she sounded like she should be a much more prominent villain. The whole natural predator naming scheme should only be used for foes that are going to frick Peter up.
>Everyone loves Spidey villains
Specially Spidey himself.
Even Peter's one true partner, Felicia Hardy, begun as one of his villains.
Jackal and Hobgoblin both suck. Fight me
Jackal was allright in his debut but never again.
Hobgoblin depends on who you say. Kingsley was great mostly (and frankly one of my personal favorites), Macandale had his moments and i dig the cyborg-goblin look but Urich was just boring.
Urich was fine as a teenage hero and was one of my favorite characters in Spider-Girl. Making him a villain was a horrible mistake that forever fricked the character up. Or at least until someone who cares enough to fix it comes along, but I'm not counting on that.
I blame that more so on the loners mini, but Slott making him Hobgoblin was a bad move as a whole.
He was totally fine under defalco's pen, agreed.
Everyone becomes flanderized versions of someone else's take under Slott.
Oh for sure. Only characters which i didnt dislike how he wrote were Mysterio and Kingsley (after fan demand forced him to retcon the dead one as daniel).
I enjoyed some of Slott's writing but that made it more frustrating. He had ideas but he needed a more level-headed(not Gage) hand to guide him through his decisions. I'd be interested in the new book if it were a team effort.
I dont know, i mostly liked the torch mini and new ways to die, his run proper was just not good with Peter and that's kind of the most important part.
He also just writes for "big impactful" stuff that will be in the wikis rather than what makes intresting stories far too much.
Kingsley > Norman
Hadnt mentioned it before since i just got stuck interacting with people, but my personal favorites are Norman, Kraven and Kingsley so is funny to me.
I just want a good Chameleon story with Dmitri as the focus and a big psychological threat. The last time we got that was in DeMatteis' post-Clone Saga run on Spectacular.
He did have a decent role in the jenkins arc thing, but that was more about how he was tortured.
Spidey needs more female vilalins that arent just not evil or not threats.
Agreed.
Especially more that arent just "x villain but girl". At this point all the big shots have a female counterpart that is barely used within the rouges gallery.
Yeah. Those types of characters are short-sighted at best. Legacy characters have to work twice as hard as their counterparts to receive even half the respect.
Spider-man as a franchise has two very sucessful legacy villains but outside of those its hard to make them stick (ha) at all
My first thought was Harry and Roddy.
Were you thinking of someone else? One is dead and the other is underused. All of them limit each other's stories. Roddy is the sane goblin so Norman must be bugfrick nuts and the kind of stories writers want to tell with Hobgoblin are reduced because he's 'the sane one'. Harry is the sympathetic goblin so any sympathy for Norman is immediately disregarded because frick sympathy points for that bastard and Harry's story potential is decreased because he's sympathetic.
I was thinking of identities themselves so hobgoblin (mostly roderick) and carnage (you can dislike him but he is insanley popular still). But harry is a good example sure.
I dunno, i like all 3 goblins, altough Harry really only worked as that during the dematties run because that had a built in ending with him not being like his father. Kingsley should be used more as the goblin that sticks to the roots and is still involved with the underworld stuff rather than obsessed with peter.
Ah! Carnage. Depends on how they're writing him tbh. There's this kick lately of pairing every damn villain with a supernatural entity(including the goblins) that I'm not liking. Carnage works better because there was a solid transfer of roles with Venom becoming a hero. Sure, not everyone agrees Eddie should be a hero but that's another story. It helps that Carnage is more Venom's enemy than Spider-Man's, even if Peter fights him.
I think Norman's character is weakened when he's too obsessed with Peter. Choosing to disregard his family and goals to humiliate Peter before killing him worked because his obsession resulted in his death. If he sticks he's got to work for something beyond Spidey. As Wells' run has proven from the fans trashing both Liz, Peter, and even Normie, no one wants to see civilian family man Norman. he's abused them too frequently. People only want to see Harry Osborn in that role. If he can't be a family man, then what interesting dynamic can he share with Peter now that what made him interesting in the first place is gone?
Hobgoblin works as a guy collecting power in the mobs and I hope we'll be seeing more of that soon. Part of the reason that works is that Norman can't do that anymore. He's too "crazy" to think like that. Sure, he can amass power with the rest of marvel but that results in complaints that he's been separated from Spider-Man and he'll fail because he can't be the "sane goblin". Too many goblins step on each others toes and increasingly I'm starting to believe Marvel was right when they said Osborn shouldn't come back.
Oh for sure, but he still stands as a popular example of a spinoff villain. I do think that he can work even if Venom's a villain but still.
Eh i think Norman being obsessed with Peter works. The thing is, he's really not been allowed to do that since 2005, he's either put in positions of power or spidey is presented as a nuissance rather than a point of obsession (outside of new ways to die that's how slott writes norman). Although the problem rn isnt that he's a family man, but that he's wiped out of all the numerous wrongdoings he's done, there's a difference. I'd argue him knowing who peter is and being willing to use that as well as the power he has against him is already a good hook. That cold war thing he had with peter had so much potential before gathering of five torpeod it.
Eh i think Norman/Harry and Kingsley can co-exist just fine, maybe demogoblin too since his/her gimmick is so out there, but outside of that sure.
If I sound too serious about this, sorry dude, this is just me having fun.
I'm not sure they would work. Or, it would have been harder for Carnage to get out of Venom's shadow. When people are contesting who is Peter's Arch, Carnage's name never shows up and heaven knows he's done more evil than Venom ever did. He's had to earn the level of respect he has now by being the worst of the worst.
Under Slott, Norman was extremely obsessed with Peter. He mutilated his face because he cared for Peter's opinion of him and looked like a coward in front of Spider-Man. He valued killing Spider-Man over his family as that was what helped him throw off the Carnage symbiote. Not Normie getting hurt, all he cared for was Peter. The gathering of five was a bad story but Cold wars can't last indefinitely. Something will eventually turn the feud hot or someone will lose power over the situation. That's life. It's a temporary situation at most. Terrifying villains work but you get bored of them unless they up the ante every time you see them. Carnage can do it. Norman eventually can't. He can't kill another girlfriend on par with Gwen and there hasn't been another Mayday. Slott tried killing Flash(not a good idea) but he has a hero's immunity to death so that didn't last. When all the characters around Peter have some kind of immunity effectiveness is reduced. At some point, people are going to be tired of seeing someone who operates at a third of his original emotional impact.
I disagree but mostly because both characters are a response to Norman failing. Hobgoblin decided to take his place and decided to be 'sane' about it. Harry tried to take Norman's path but every time he did it resulted in self-sabotage until, like his dad, he died too.
Oh dont worry, im not talking it that seriously. I will probably have to go to sleep soon anyways :/
Eh, it can work in the sense that venom is more personal while carnage is more general. If that makes sense. An arch is by definition personal.
Well yes and no. Slott Norman cares about beating spider-man, post clone saga to MK Norman cares about making him suffer first. There's a massive distinction.One has it as a part of their life but cares about how he'll be seen more while the other has centered his entire life around it, and plots schemes about that. Also slott norman mutilated his face to not look like himself so he could mantain his arms smuggling buisness not because of spider-man per say.
And sure there really arent many direct targets, but he can still play with peter more physcologically, villains like carnage mostly feed off no-name victims and the like. And that's just not true, if it were so we wouldnt see so much of joker. There are defintiley ways to use Norman as a villain.
I do think that Harry as goblin cant exist with Norman at all, but that's very basic. Kingsley absolutley can.
Had to make sure. I'm not very confident about my tones here. XP I envy your sleep schedule. I'm stuck doing tasks.
Oh, it makes complete sense. It's also why carnage works. He's out there being a completely different type of villain than Venom was. There's been enough time and a new symbiote that Carnage has embraced.
Slott's Norman does want him to suffer? As Red Goblin says "do what I say, or I take down your loved ones." That requires Spider-Man to make a choice. If he lets him be, he's ignoring his duty as spider-man. Norman goes against the advice of the surgeon because he's upset that Peter insulted him. Peter's thoughts matter. He spends most of his time as a villain thinking about Peter. He's obsessive. The only time I agree with you is Goblin Nation. It was odd that he didn't care as much then, but I guess the mindwipe destroyed that.
Modern Joker's point is to be the worst. His existence is an ethical question to Batman's moral code and is the chaotic nihilism of Batman's ordered existentialism.Many have argued that he was more fun in early generations because he'stoo edgy. Norman is that and more because he lost more nuance as years passed. He can still be used. It's just not as interesting and will not be until something fixes the character. How they plan to fix him I don't know. I doubt they know either. All I know is his returns are met with groans and articles telling Marvel to please give the character a rest already and he appears less than most Archs I can name.
Both Harry and Roddy are meant as a measure of how much Norman's path will destroy someone. If Roddy can live to show a successful supervillain career in comparison to self-destructive Norman, Harry can live go show what valuing Family over villainy looks like. Norman wants both and gets neither. Alone, friendless, powerless in the ways he wants. A good fate for him but Spider-Man's universe isn't reset often enough to make it last or sell a return to form.
Don't know about all this but I don't like how often the big two forget to write a character when they write an archenemy. The archnemesis ain't meant to be a personality
Is Joker a nihilist or an absurdist?
hes a fricking comic book villain nerd
We are all nerds here bro.
Am I crazy, or does the guy in the absurdism column look like Norman Osborn?
It's your imagination.
This is killing me because if you people think Camus looks like Norman this image applies and... No.
>Norman is hot
always has been
Mfw anons say long dead philosophers and Spider-Man villains are hot.
Norman Osborn specifically. Reply to me with most girls and a couple of the guys and we might have a conversation. Norman is not hot.
>Norman is not hot.
Spider-Fans really be picking up the ugliest blorbos and calling them their sexy man
Post the saraharry x Peter you promised, fujochan.
>40 year old man sexually harasses sons best friend
Ew
All male villains are gay for the heroes.
>bullies Peter in front of his gf and best friends
Peterbros.....
Haters gonna hate. Campus was flexible as frick
Finally back. And yeah that's something i worry about too.
Yeah.
Well, no. His first thing is to make sure spider-man stays out of his way, its potrayed as if one he gets that he doesnt care about him which is massively OOC for a norman that knows.
I wouldnt disagree per say, but you certainly hear grumlins like with all the archs, and with Norms i just think the matter is that he's not been written all that well for a while.
Eh, i think Harry dying due to his father's obsession but ultimatley picking the right thing was beyond fantastic as a story and bringing him back (either as a good guy or villain) is just a waste (more wasteful than Norman himself). Harry has the whole breaking a cycle of abuse thing baggage that Kingsley doesnt really. You could make a thematic comparison that being a supervillain cost roderick his brother and his multi million company but he doesnt resort to an obsession like Norman.
I would agree, the sinless stuff was when the run kinda fell for me.
Altough goblin nation GG was basically just spec goblin. Down to doing the same thing he did in season 2.
You say that but id argue that he gave Ock an usage bump after the 00s at the cost of him being Ock at all.
Id read that.
>As Wells' run has proven from the fans trashing both Liz, Peter, and even Normie, no one wants to see civilian family man Norman. he's abused them too frequently. People only want to see Harry Osborn in that role.
I don't think it's civilian family man Norman people dislike. Out of context it's fun and I enjoyed the more villainous take on his civilian dynamic post-clone saga/pre-Thunderbolts.
It's just the idea that Peter and Liz would so easily accept him just because he's magically good now. Heck, this is the same persona that sold his child to the devil. If Norman had pulled his own Dr. Strange deal to get everyone to forget his misdeeds, it'd be easier to role with, even fun.
Makes Peter look like he's been Stockholmed or something. Is that fricker threatening to eat his grandkids in front of you Pete? Blink once for yes, twice for no.
>Norman so far that a reality warping retcon is needed
Sorry but if they pulled that I'd be more pissed than I am right now lol. Frick that old man. He blew every damn chance he was given and made a bed of rusted nails. He can damn well sleep in it. The one saving grace about this run is it's not going to last and the next writer will have no reason to maintain a nonsensical status quo.
I'm not whoever wrote the above btw. Just chiming in.
>If Norman had pulled his own Dr. Strange deal to get everyone to forget his misdeeds
Actually the more I think about it, the more I like this idea for an arc run
>Norman is still evil but recognises he's lost his stability of the old days
>Makes a deal with someone to erase the memories of him being the Goblin
>Peter remembers his Goblin encounters and Gwen's death, but can't remember whose under the mask
>Norman gets to be classic Goblin again whilst getting his family man persona back
>Uses his knowledge of Peter's identity and Peter's amnesia to direct things in his favour
>This time he tries to deliberately take care around his family and friends, even starting to enjoy his relationship and their love again
>He knows who Peter is and has fun "befriending" him, but over time remembers how he admired him and enjoyes the mutual respect
>Tension rises as Norman gets more ambitious with the Goblin, putting his civillian life at risk
>Peter slowly starts remembering the truth to his own horror and has to figure out whether Norman remembers
>Also recognises that this new Norman is more stable and outing him could endanger and ruin the lives of his friends, but also knows what Norman is capable of at his worst
>Becomes a psychological game between them of trying to figure out how much the other remembers
I wouldn't want it to be a Norman redemption arc, he's still a selfish dick even if more capable at hiding it, but would be good for him to regain some of his humanity. Recognise what he's lost in his fall, but also the ways in which he failed long before the Goblin.
It would be a way of exploring how Norman's changed over the years and the evolution of his relationship with Peter. Peter could be genuinely betrayed when he remembers on top of everything else.
And if Harry wasn't dead then you could have a play on the Romita Sr days, Peter knowing how dangerous Norman is but hesitant to ruin Harry's life again and break him psychologicaly.
Only works if his victims are dead no longer. Could be where Gwen Stacy comes in but Harry would be needed to sell this too. Really tired of the "Not actually a retcon" retcons. Be man enough to admit your exactly like DC, Marvel.
The victims are still dead, just no one remembers it was Norman.
I'm not imagining it as a new status quo, just an ongoing storyline for a run that would eventually culminate in Norman being outed or outing himself to some degree.
Wouldn't that just put him in the same position he was in already? Repeating the old hits in the hopes that they'll briefly appeal to your audience is admitting they don't know what to do with the character long-term.
They've been creatively bankrupt with Spider-Man comics to be frank. Marvel needs to hire new talent.
Not really? RomitaSr Norman was an amnesiac goodguy half the time and Peter knew he was the Goblin.
Besides have they really been repeating the same hits? I don't remember classic Norman using Carnage, running the world or trying to be a crimeboss without the Goblin. If anything they've been trying way too hard to avoid using what makes him work.
>culminate in Norman being outed or outing himself to some degree
This has me imagining Norman throwing a fit and screaming "I sold someone else's soul for nothing!"
Wouldn't be the first time.
>I sold someone else's soul for nothing
Peter didn't sell anyone's soul to make everyone forget?
I feel bad that defalco never got to make Puma happen, despite there being a brief moment in the 00s where it seemed like he had found a role.
I feel ashamed that my introduction to this character was PC Spider-Man 2.
I had that game as a kid installed on the family PC! I am more ashamed i never got to that level kek.
>tfw was stuck for months on the Mysterio boss fight
Another reason to be jealous of PS2-gays and their "one punch" Mysterio.
Lucky bastards.
I am the only person in the world who thinks Swiss Miss should be brought into the comics
Have any ideas to make her not be a laughing stock?
The usual comic thing, give her a super dark backstory. Maybe she was part of some fricked up experiment where she got fused with liquid metal, and she's trying to murder everyone remotely connected to what happened from the scientists who were directly involved to the truck driver who delivered the materials.
Make her a laughing stock, then show everyone why it's a really bad idea to underestimate someone covered in drill bits and sawblades.
Frick yeah. Let 'em go apeshit
>Her role in the original show before it was rewritten was a member of the "Geek Choir" complaining the Sinister Six was too Patriarchal and they needed to diversify
Its impossible to not make her a joke
They could have just used an existing female Spider-Man villain, like how that theme park ride threw Scream into the Sinister Syndicate.
Most of them are either spin offs of the big male ones, or usually treated as jokes. Or less bad guys per say and more anti heroines.
I think The Thousand was pretty interesting theme-wise. Only if the person that was it had a better character.
what I'm hearing here a lot is "Slott wrote a shitty Norman and later writers haven't bothered to fix him" with a large spoonful of Lowe being a hack editor.
Which ofc is 100% true and as a Normangay, I am in despair.
The BND era hasn't been good to anyone. Can't believe this has been most of my life.
Y'all call yourselves "Normangays"? I thought the board only called you that because you're annoying or something?
?
-stan in more polite circles is -gay here. Is this truly your first time hearing this? It's been a thing for years, both in the positive and negativse sense.
I'm black bi trans and friends with israeli folks. Usually I skim threads at most. I was bored. /shrug
Slott wrote a great Norman in New Ways To Die, and a great Goblin in Goblin Nation, though hampered by not knowing Peter's identity.
Then they just kept trying to give Norman a new schtick every new story. It's been years since we got a normal Norman/Goblin story. Not helped by Norman keeping his amnesia over Peter way too long given it's one the key elements of their dynamic since Romita Sr.
Spencer gave us two issues of classic Norman/Goblin and Peter/Spider-man and it was great before the sinless redirect and the run fell apart.
> Slott wrote a great Norman
> my beloved son whom I pulled from the deaths door? Let’s sacrifice him for my political gains
Nah.
The same son for whom avenging his death was the whole point of Norman's most convoluted plan going into action and who he was potrayed as visiting his grave pretty constantly.
Visiting his grave and insulting him.
Don't get me wrong, they take it too far these days but Norman's been portrayed as a totally shit dad since Gwen's death.
Besides BND retconned that at the time so as dumb as the explenation was, it wasn't canon anyway.
Well not really. He basically says that they'll see each other again. And in the Osborn journal he's shown to actually be proud of Harry during his stint as the goblin at first. So post clone saga Norman definetly did care for him, just in a far from ideal way. Like thinking his wife made him weak.
Maybe, but BND really didn't try to even explain it's retcon from Norman's pov, which at least his resurrection did.
Wasn't that story Joe Kelly, not Slott?
If you're thinking of American Son, that was Joe Kelly.
I thought Norman'd plan was a bit much but I still liked the story. It's not like he got anywhere close to enacting it.
>my beloved son whom I pulled from the deaths door?
Also when did that happen?
I think that anon got confused. What Slott did do is make it so Norman would be willing to kill him as red goblin and so he didn't care about his wife, something which even a tie in to superior had marked that he did (down to calling her his only friend).
I assume anon was talking about the mysterio thing but I'm not sure? He puts in the effort so Harry survived the JMD scenario yet blows it all for applause from people he don't care about.
Sloot is an awful writer and his run was disgustingly wrong.
But he's also the reason Doc Ock got so much love and wasnt tossed aside in favour of Venom
Isn't that just Skitter with wings from Worm?
Is she the one that wanted to feed him to her babies or was that Empress
I will not let this thread die before asking that one anon why he thinks people finding Norman hot is weird. He's a muscled, strong, square-jawed middle-aged man who looks very good for his age and oozes charisma. His murder stuff and sliminess and that time he perved of Spider-Gwen is whatever when you just look at the basics.
When NWH was big, the amount of women simping for Dafoe was insane and he's a weird looking man, especially compared to Norman who looks typically handsome. Granted, that's one of the reasons women schlicked off to him, so there's that. But obviously his different appearances have a lot of female fans.
You could've just said it's the hair. Chicks dig the hair.
There's a trope known as the Kavorka man. He's not hot by the understanding of most. To borrow from tvtropes:
You see the thing is Jack is utterly grotesque, physically repulsive, and yet, still somewhat successful with women, even though he treats them like a herd of cattle. The line appears to be taken from Sid James Carry On Camp, where his own lewd humour was part of the game, but in the case of James there’s something about him, a twinkle in the eye, a sense of danger, that might just explain why women are attracted to him. This is not remotely true for On the Buses’ Jack though and I have had to come to the conclusion that his creation is some sort of absurd frick you to notions of the masculine ideal.
Kat Ellinger, "Holiday on the Buses: A Very British Nightmare
It's weird in fact but happens because human standards are in fact weird
>not posting the worst of them all
You disappoint me, Cinemaphile.
One day people will remember how OP and awesome Shocker is
>professional criminal
I had no idea you could do that professionally
Professional criminal is a popular name for a person who has made crime his or her livelihood, that is, a person who depends upon criminal activities for at least a substantial portion of his or her income, and who has developed special, related skills.
He used to be in Hammer Industries
all the more reasons to hate jenkins
Happy Birthday, America, here's your greatest hero.
That don't look like one the approved Captain Americas, son.
Fitting.
>she resuscitated and Norman kept her as some kind of living trophy that he did God knows what to before Fisk set her free
bump. Let's hit a bump limit!
You got it amigo. I’ve always loved this detail with the suit slowly morphing into something like the classic version as it takes further control of Peter
Fantastic angle.
I remember the moment my faith in humanity was shattered for the first time. Fricking Captain America/Red Skull. Thought that was the worst and they pull out the Thor/Loki. Shippers are something else
Meant to reply
Did Kaine kill Shathra? Or will there be a return?
I mean she’s mystical so any time a writer wants she’ll be back. I hope she does she’s pretty cool imo
Could also introduce her family.
Do villains created for comics based on shows count
Why is Felicia Hardy called Black Cat when she's clearly a Tuxedo Cat?
byump
Early review. Starts at 54:44
The word partnership is thrown out.