>The most important character in comics.
Ftfy. Don't get me wrong, I love Superman very much. But anything capeshit doesn't come close to every single other fiction.
He's a gay overpowered mary-sue >b-b-b-but the point is that hes inspirational and a role model
I don't need a fictional character to be my role model, especially one that never faces any actual hardships because he is infinitely strong and a super genius and is never wrong.
Supergays are so weird. They treat him like some kind of religious icon but one created and owned by a billion dollar company.
At his best at extremes, i.e. either supermassive event stories where he's a huge player or very small and personal slice of life stories
Not that he doesn't work in middle grounds, it's just his ideal incarnations are at the endpoints
>supermassive event stories where he's a huge player
In these stories I prefer him being maybe not at the top rankings power-wise, but a most inspirational figure for morale and integrity. I'm kinda burned out on strong-as-he-needs-to-be Superman
I don't see the problem with him being at the top rankings power-wise
His strength is part of his core appeal, translating it to a larger scale would necessitate putting him in the upper echelon
Besides it's not like there isn't room to share. Or that said room isn't being used, even. Hal literally shows up out of nowhere to one shot Mandrakk at the end of Final Crisis lmao. Flash is so broken that writers have to find nonsense ways to nerf his most basic power sets each time they bring him into the fold- look at the contortions Metal had to go through.
JL vs. JLU illustrates this perfectly. Basically the first thing McDuffie did was restore that core appeal. Not that JL was bad, but whenever Superman showed up in JLU you knew he was gonna get work done
>I don't see the problem with him being at the top rankings power-wise
Because the idea that some random alien made up of cells and atoms like everyone else could take on gods that embody the very essence of the cosmos makes no sense.
Bruh the idea that a guy can dress up in a bat costume and be a major player in a world with superheroes is complete nonsense
The idea that a guy can get struck by lightning and then become arguably the strongest being in the multiverse thanks to speedforce bullshittery is just that, bullshittery
The "random alien" has an in-built explanation for it with as well with energy storage/scaling
At some point you just have to accept that things are done to have fun. A kid doesn't want to read a story about how their favorite hero is nothing in comparison to a fictional god, they want to read the story of the hero powering up and beating the shit out of them
Just have fun with it dude, yeah things can get complex/meaningful but at the end of the day if you can't get past the basic premise of "strong hero beats big bad guy and saves the day" then I think you have greater problems with the genre as a whole. Not Superman in particular
>Bruh the idea that a guy can dress up in a bat costume and be a major player in a world with superheroes is complete nonsense
Why? He's the smartest man in the world, and most of his strategies are gimmicks.
>The idea that a guy can get struck by lightning and then become arguably the strongest being in the multiverse thanks to speedforce bullshittery is just that, bullshittery
He's not the strongest, his powers are just fueled by a powerful source. It's no different from Chaos Magic in Marvel.
>The "random alien" has an in-built explanation for it with as well with energy storage/scaling
You're missing the point. Superman isn't inherently special. He's powerful because he's a Kryptonian. But so are Zod, Supergirl and Power Girl. And then you have alien races like the Daxamites who are equally powerful.
It makes no sense for him to be at the top of a universe with gods who transcend physical matter.
>At some point you just have to accept that things are done to have fun. A kid doesn't want to read a story about how their favorite hero is nothing in comparison to a fictional god, they want to read the story of the hero powering up and beating the shit out of them Just have fun with it dude, yeah things can get complex/meaningful but at the end of the day if you can't get past the basic premise of "strong hero beats big bad guy and saves the day" then I think you have greater problems with the genre as a whole. Not Superman in particular
But I'm not going to have fun with it if it doesn't make sense.
You still have to justify why a random collection of molecules confined to space-time can fight gods that supposedly that transcend it.
And by thinking about it you'll only conclude that the "gods" aren't as powerful as they're implied to be.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Why? He's the smartest man in the world, and most of his strategies are gimmicks.
Dude he can be killed with a stray bullet and we are dealing with creatures that move at or faster than the speed of LIGHT lmao. If you want to take things as seriously as possible he would be a complete non factor in any legitimate fight. >Superman isn't inherently special.
I mean why not >He's not the strongest, his powers are just fueled by a powerful source
... yeah? That source makes him the strongest. >It makes no sense for him to be at the top of a universe with gods who transcend physical matter.
I mean which ones are you talking about here? When Superman conflicted with the Quintessence he wasn't exactly punching them lol. These fictional gods have physical bodies, and if they have those projections then there's no reason why Superman couldn't take on those >But I'm not going to have fun with it if it doesn't make sense.
Again dude, you're probably in the wrong medium/genre. None of this shit makes any sense >You still have to justify why a random collection of molecules confined to space-time can fight gods that supposedly that transcend it.
Because the "gods" are clearly limited, as otherwise cosmic events would just be some 4D books folding in on themselves as these "transcendent" beings duke it out.
Which I guess is what Morrison keeps trying to make (and he is... unique in this regard). But again, he translates the core appeal of the character- that at his core, Superman is meant to be "big hero guy"- and finds metanarrative ways to adapt Superman to those threats too. Superman Beyond was really great >And by thinking about it you'll only conclude that the "gods" aren't as powerful as they're implied to be.
Mostly yes, with some caveats
>where he humiliated Kalibak and Darkseid
this is kind more of a 90s Darkseid problem. Kirby Clearly didn't have New God powerlevels set all THAT high b/c he wrote that shit in prehistory, and blahblahblah we didn't know what a "reality warper+-tier being" really was yet.
Beyonder came later, and >in b4 someone posts some shit about Mad Jim Jaspers being from 1973 or some esoteric shit >in b4 Destiny, Phantom Stranger, The Living Tribunal, the other Marvel cosmic hierarchy were here on 22nd of November in 1963 at Daley Plaza
Fortunately, kinda Morrison and Morrisongays' headcanon created the concept of True Darkseid.
Like, Darkseid jobbed fricking hard to, of all shitass characters, Doomsday back in the day. and while Final Crisis and the Batman run that surrounds it aren't perfect, uh, it accomplished a bunch of shit for the mythos. And, years later, hack-ass, no-name DC pleb-tier writers ARE using those ideas for the piss-poor, post-Snyder (Scott this time, not Hack....but, frick, he also turned out to be a massive hack with half the half-life of Johns) Dark Crisis shit.
Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle, FC, and obviously The Multiversity Guidebook #1 at least canonize the mutiversal/otherworldly nature of the New Gods, where, like, yeah, they were always initially envisioned as superpowerful aliens.
Like Kirby had Thor n shit travel through time. thor couldn't wave his hand and do <i>whatever</i> he wanted. Sometimes Odin could. But Darkseid jobbed hard to pre-Crisis Superman and was always a gayass homosexual on the 80s Superfriends show on the level of the Inspector Gadget antagonist dude with the cat.
There was actually a pretty fascinating interview with Kirby about introducing Superman to the Fourth World with Infinity Man
https://twomorrows.com/kirby/articles/17tot.html
2 years ago
Anonymous
If you make sense of it then it makes sense.
The problem is that Superman is just a collection of cells that derives his powers from the Sun. That's always going to be his limit.
So anyone he can fight (let alone defeat) is necessarily going to be weak when compared to real cosmic beings who'd be able to disintegrate Superman with a mere thought.
I like his power set itself more than I like his "power level" or however you feel like calling it. Like
>I don't see the problem with him being at the top rankings power-wise
Because the idea that some random alien made up of cells and atoms like everyone else could take on gods that embody the very essence of the cosmos makes no sense.
It only makes the gods weak.
said, a "super man" shouldn't be quite up there with gods and such beings. Always rubbed me wrong even in the DCAU where he humiliated Kalibak and Darkseid. Tangentially it's why I can't take JLA/Avengers seriously. DUDE! You had all the parallels you needed! The Man of Steel? Well here's the God of Thunder (a literal terrestrial mortal man vs an immortal sky god) >Hal literally shows up out of nowhere to one shot Mandrakk
You mean the remainder of the GL showed up to kill a decrepit Mandrakk in a lower dimension. >Flash is so broken
That "Speedforce lol" became a joke that people who weren't in on the joke took seriously and ran to the ground.
Personally I like when it's SuperMAN, the Man of Tomorrow and not SuperArchetype, the Goodness of Good and Comics 😛
>a "super man" shouldn't be quite up there with gods and such beings.
I mean it's fiction
You're placing a heavy weight on the label of "god" when the characters in question don't come close to deserving the term outside of odd hax here and there
I don't see any issues with an alien in this fictional universe being powerful enough to take on a god in that fictional universe, the same way I don't see any issues with a human in that universe powering himself up enough to take on an alien as well >You mean the remainder of the GL showed up to kill a decrepit Mandrakk in a lower dimension.
Sure, but just think about how ridiculous that sounds
And given the relentless Halposting on Cinemaphile I'm guessing a true list of bullshit Hal Jordan feats isn't necessary >That "Speedforce lol" became a joke that people who weren't in on the joke took seriously and ran to the ground.
Yeah but it's also because super speed is an inherently broken power. If you actually want to give Flash the highest speed of any character, he will never lose a fight >Personally I like when it's SuperMAN, the Man of Tomorrow and not SuperArchetype, the Goodness of Good and Comics 😛
I like both, which is why my initial post stated that he works in both extremes. GA Supes and Morrison's AC are fantastic for what you're talking about, but All Star and SA Supes are great too
What I'm trying to say is that I totally get you if you're saying you prefer the side of Superman that's more down to Earth (literally)
But if you can't see the appeal in "likable hero beats the crap out of big bad guy" then I think we just have a fundamental difference in taste.
And that's okay. I don't much care for wacky iterations of Batman but I get that they have a really devoted fanbase. Similarly I get why people are upset with the "darker" take on the character that I usually enjoy. But both have merits that I think dueling fans lose sight of when making business asks to prioritize what work gets produced
Well, to each his own, right? >true list of bullshit Hal Jordan feats isn't necessary
No, but Hal also troubles me. Not every emotional entity is willpower-based! He shouldn't be able to rape Nekron with willpower because Nekron is not the willpower entity! I don't like it when characters randomly leave the stations I made up for them in my own head (that most writers seem to agree with) for the sake of plot. I'd argue sacrificing some semblance of integrity just to have an excuse for the good guys to win is just as bad, if not worse than what you said later in your post about likable heroes and big bad guys. >If you actually want to give Flash the highest speed of any character,
If it were up to me, Hermes/Mercury would be logarithmically faster than the entire Speedforce. >"likable hero beats the crap out of big bad guy"
Generally? It's a good thing, and Superman is one of the best! But not every bad guy needs to keel over, there should be a cap, or in the example I brought up, not every (literally a god) powerhouse from a different company has to crumble like crouton. You know? And I tend to place gods on a pedestal since childhood so you'll have to excuse me for being obstinate about this.
>where he humiliated Kalibak and Darkseid
this is kind more of a 90s Darkseid problem. Kirby Clearly didn't have New God powerlevels set all THAT high b/c he wrote that shit in prehistory, and blahblahblah we didn't know what a "reality warper+-tier being" really was yet.
Beyonder came later, and >in b4 someone posts some shit about Mad Jim Jaspers being from 1973 or some esoteric shit >in b4 Destiny, Phantom Stranger, The Living Tribunal, the other Marvel cosmic hierarchy were here on 22nd of November in 1963 at Daley Plaza
Fortunately, kinda Morrison and Morrisongays' headcanon created the concept of True Darkseid.
Like, Darkseid jobbed fricking hard to, of all shitass characters, Doomsday back in the day. and while Final Crisis and the Batman run that surrounds it aren't perfect, uh, it accomplished a bunch of shit for the mythos. And, years later, hack-ass, no-name DC pleb-tier writers ARE using those ideas for the piss-poor, post-Snyder (Scott this time, not Hack....but, frick, he also turned out to be a massive hack with half the half-life of Johns) Dark Crisis shit.
Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle, FC, and obviously The Multiversity Guidebook #1 at least canonize the mutiversal/otherworldly nature of the New Gods, where, like, yeah, they were always initially envisioned as superpowerful aliens.
Like Kirby had Thor n shit travel through time. thor couldn't wave his hand and do <i>whatever</i> he wanted. Sometimes Odin could. But Darkseid jobbed hard to pre-Crisis Superman and was always a gayass homosexual on the 80s Superfriends show on the level of the Inspector Gadget antagonist dude with the cat.
>True Darkseid.
I hate this.
I hate this so much.
Morrison ruined the New Gods.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I have to go but I just want to say good talking to you and the other guy even if it seems like we disagree on a ton
One thing I do want to respond to before I leave is >And I tend to place gods on a pedestal since childhood so you'll have to excuse me for being obstinate about this.
That's actually really interesting. I am and have always been strongly religious, but I think that's always resulted in me eliminating fictional """gods'""" pedestals entirely
2 years ago
Anonymous
>I have to go >before I leave >since childhood >being obstinate
homie no one cares about your life story. go write a fricking blog. >I am and have always been strongly religious
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
2 years ago
Anonymous
>but I think that's always resulted in me eliminating fictional """gods'""" pedestals entirely
Makes sense. I don't worship "pagan" gods, but I read about Heracles before I read about Superman. The Greek, Norse, Egyptian and Aztec gods are more "intimate" with me than Big Two superheroes because of that.
It's good to part ways in good terms. Have a good day.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>I hate this. >I hate this so much. >Morrison ruined the New Gods.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Because the New Gods were never meant to be anything more than mere villains and they will eventually get retconned back into mere villains.
In fact it's already happening.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I mean, Moore is the one that basically introduced the idea of versions of superhero IPs where "it's all true, but here's the new game plus."
In other words, like Miracle Man was all those things you knew about from when you were a kid, but here's the new stuff. swamp Thing was that guy Alec Holland, sure, but really he just thought he was, and he's really an eldritch piece of, uh, The Green that's existed forever. Gaiman is all like, "Yeah, OK 'Sandman.'" Sure he was some mortal, gas-mask-wearing guy from the 30s and also some orange-and-yellow-suit guy from the 70s, but he also happens to be the Morpheus version of Dream of the Endless, and Daniel is His son and replacement. Johns can make every Brainiac the True Brainiac that Superman never even met, not even pre-Crisis.
Why can sometimes Superman move a planet when other times Superman can barely lift 10 tons. For a ton of time it was >muh pre-Crisis vs. post-Crisis
No, it's all true. He's a solar battery, and his abilities are a reflection of the amount of comicsmagicbullshit in his cells.
Darkseid can be a lil b***h all the time, but still be the Tiger Force At The Center Of All Things.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Darkseid can be a lil b***h all the time, but still be the Tiger Force At The Center Of All Things.
The latter was a statement he made *about* himself to hype himself up in the first place!
2 years ago
Anonymous
Where to begin?
Will "I just don't like it and it soured the brand for me" suffice? I understand if it doesn't, heh, but maybe I can express my distaste more profoundly. I think Darkseid being the literal "conceptual god of evil" is lame because his original gimmick, where he was a being of immense power BUT not absolute in any capacity outside of personal identity/ego (the DS I know was otherwise a paper tiger, as it were). He certainly wasn't "god of evil" in my book, he was tyranny. When you have these archetypal concepts projecting lesser selves into the Multiverse through boomtubes, instead of being the gods themselves changing dimensionality through boomtubes, it takes away from the gods as characters as WE know them, because you can just say "oh Lightray (my favorite) was a projection all this time". And besides, what the hell kind of concept is a character like Mantis supposed to embody anyway?
2 years ago
Anonymous
But Darkseid is the God of Evil.
2 years ago
Anonymous
2 years ago
Anonymous
>like Mantis
I mean...you just headcanon the answer to this question. It's like Marvel Asgardians where not every god is The God of a thing, but the race of beings is inherently more durable, long-lived, strong, and then certain members can exceed base-stats to be e.g. Thor or Loki or Ares or Hercules. And, yeah sure, sentry can utterly rap Ares.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>And, yeah sure, sentry can utterly rap Ares.
But that doesn't make the Sentry look strong, it makes the gods look weak.
Because you're tearing them down to the Sentry's level.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Mantis is a big boy, not someone like Volstagg. And less than gods having spheres, I was talking about them being, and perhaps embodying entire overarching concepts outside the universe. That's never been the way I saw New Gods and it wounded me deeply. >sentry can utterly rap Ares.
Sentry, the guy in control of a dimension with a million supernovae? Who is perhaps God's very own Angel of Death, who killed Egypt's young? That Sentry? 😛
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Who is perhaps God's very own Angel of Death, who killed Egypt's young? That Sentry? 😛
N-n-n-nooooooooo
Even if that's canon.....n-n-n-no
>Wolverine fights the Angel of Death every time he would have died, and his regen if based off him winning the fight!
N-n-n-n-noooooooooo.
>Deathstroke almost stole Kyle Rayner's power ring in Identity Crisis and stabbed Wally West faster than he could react!
N-n-n-n-noooooooooooooo.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Scott and Logan are gay for each other, and Jean gets to frick whomever!
N-n-n-oh frick...Yeah, I guess so.
2 years ago
Anonymous
I'd feel ambivalent about it, but it's the only way that issue makes any sense.
>where he humiliated Kalibak and Darkseid
this is kind more of a 90s Darkseid problem. Kirby Clearly didn't have New God powerlevels set all THAT high b/c he wrote that shit in prehistory, and blahblahblah we didn't know what a "reality warper+-tier being" really was yet.
Beyonder came later, and >in b4 someone posts some shit about Mad Jim Jaspers being from 1973 or some esoteric shit >in b4 Destiny, Phantom Stranger, The Living Tribunal, the other Marvel cosmic hierarchy were here on 22nd of November in 1963 at Daley Plaza
Fortunately, kinda Morrison and Morrisongays' headcanon created the concept of True Darkseid.
Like, Darkseid jobbed fricking hard to, of all shitass characters, Doomsday back in the day. and while Final Crisis and the Batman run that surrounds it aren't perfect, uh, it accomplished a bunch of shit for the mythos. And, years later, hack-ass, no-name DC pleb-tier writers ARE using those ideas for the piss-poor, post-Snyder (Scott this time, not Hack....but, frick, he also turned out to be a massive hack with half the half-life of Johns) Dark Crisis shit.
Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle, FC, and obviously The Multiversity Guidebook #1 at least canonize the mutiversal/otherworldly nature of the New Gods, where, like, yeah, they were always initially envisioned as superpowerful aliens.
Like Kirby had Thor n shit travel through time. thor couldn't wave his hand and do <i>whatever</i> he wanted. Sometimes Odin could. But Darkseid jobbed hard to pre-Crisis Superman and was always a gayass homosexual on the 80s Superfriends show on the level of the Inspector Gadget antagonist dude with the cat.
It depends on whether or not you establish a race of gods that is expressly distinct from evolved races. If, for example, the word "god" means nothing to you, then perhaps cape comics have burned you out on the meaning of things!
Well said, but cape comics tend to muddle things. How are mythological cosmogonies reconciled with brand-original cosmic abstracts, for example? Odin created Eternity, Atlas lifts him?
i think he's awesome and is in dire need of a movie by next year. i just wish he was more relatable though or had more of a personal life i guess besides banging louis and being an orphan, you don't need to take his powers away or anything but still.
I love him. At his best, Superman is such a great character that can represent so many things, but most of all represents the champion of everyone’s freedoms.
I do agree that Superman can be portrayed as TOO powerful, but when he’s the right balance he really works perfectly as someone who just feels like the champion of right.
If you asked me what the definitive Superman stories/mediums are, I’d say >Clan of the Fiery Cross (radio) >Meteorite From Krypton/Scarlet Widow/Atom Man/Atom Man in Metropolis (radio) >For the Man Who Has Everything >Superman and the Molemen >George Reeves’ Superman (first episode and Panic In The Sky) >STAS (the Darkseid episodes and World’s Finest) >Donner’s films
How many of these threads are you going to make?
Wasn't the replies in the thread
you posted an hour ago good enough?
What's the point of shilling a character that no one is interested in? DC isn't paying you anything. Go and do something with your life.
Greatest capeshit hero of all time.
/thread
The most important character in fiction.
Based.
Ehhh I don't know about that one outside of DC's head-canon
Cringe
>capeshit
Cringe
>The most important character in comics.
Ftfy. Don't get me wrong, I love Superman very much. But anything capeshit doesn't come close to every single other fiction.
I like him, Superman the animated series was great, and I feel the best way to go about him is New Sincerity
Fun and enjoyable idealism.
He's a gay overpowered mary-sue
>b-b-b-but the point is that hes inspirational and a role model
I don't need a fictional character to be my role model, especially one that never faces any actual hardships because he is infinitely strong and a super genius and is never wrong.
Supergays are so weird. They treat him like some kind of religious icon but one created and owned by a billion dollar company.
>overpowered
The man gets his ass kicked constantly, how on earth is he overpowered.
He's badass, he is the end all be all SUPERHERO that no one will ever come close to, not even batman with the amount of wank he gets these days.
Superman is a citizen, not a hero. Heroes are Heracles, Beowulf and Gilgamesh
The Pride Flag is only flag Superman would touch these days.
Do you think he was a little pissed he bother to show up to their pride parade but nobody their was wearing a superman shirt?
At his best at extremes, i.e. either supermassive event stories where he's a huge player or very small and personal slice of life stories
Not that he doesn't work in middle grounds, it's just his ideal incarnations are at the endpoints
>supermassive event stories where he's a huge player
In these stories I prefer him being maybe not at the top rankings power-wise, but a most inspirational figure for morale and integrity. I'm kinda burned out on strong-as-he-needs-to-be Superman
I don't see the problem with him being at the top rankings power-wise
His strength is part of his core appeal, translating it to a larger scale would necessitate putting him in the upper echelon
Besides it's not like there isn't room to share. Or that said room isn't being used, even. Hal literally shows up out of nowhere to one shot Mandrakk at the end of Final Crisis lmao. Flash is so broken that writers have to find nonsense ways to nerf his most basic power sets each time they bring him into the fold- look at the contortions Metal had to go through.
JL vs. JLU illustrates this perfectly. Basically the first thing McDuffie did was restore that core appeal. Not that JL was bad, but whenever Superman showed up in JLU you knew he was gonna get work done
>I don't see the problem with him being at the top rankings power-wise
Because the idea that some random alien made up of cells and atoms like everyone else could take on gods that embody the very essence of the cosmos makes no sense.
It only makes the gods weak.
Bruh the idea that a guy can dress up in a bat costume and be a major player in a world with superheroes is complete nonsense
The idea that a guy can get struck by lightning and then become arguably the strongest being in the multiverse thanks to speedforce bullshittery is just that, bullshittery
The "random alien" has an in-built explanation for it with as well with energy storage/scaling
At some point you just have to accept that things are done to have fun. A kid doesn't want to read a story about how their favorite hero is nothing in comparison to a fictional god, they want to read the story of the hero powering up and beating the shit out of them
Just have fun with it dude, yeah things can get complex/meaningful but at the end of the day if you can't get past the basic premise of "strong hero beats big bad guy and saves the day" then I think you have greater problems with the genre as a whole. Not Superman in particular
>Bruh the idea that a guy can dress up in a bat costume and be a major player in a world with superheroes is complete nonsense
Why? He's the smartest man in the world, and most of his strategies are gimmicks.
>The idea that a guy can get struck by lightning and then become arguably the strongest being in the multiverse thanks to speedforce bullshittery is just that, bullshittery
He's not the strongest, his powers are just fueled by a powerful source. It's no different from Chaos Magic in Marvel.
>The "random alien" has an in-built explanation for it with as well with energy storage/scaling
You're missing the point. Superman isn't inherently special. He's powerful because he's a Kryptonian. But so are Zod, Supergirl and Power Girl. And then you have alien races like the Daxamites who are equally powerful.
It makes no sense for him to be at the top of a universe with gods who transcend physical matter.
>At some point you just have to accept that things are done to have fun. A kid doesn't want to read a story about how their favorite hero is nothing in comparison to a fictional god, they want to read the story of the hero powering up and beating the shit out of them Just have fun with it dude, yeah things can get complex/meaningful but at the end of the day if you can't get past the basic premise of "strong hero beats big bad guy and saves the day" then I think you have greater problems with the genre as a whole. Not Superman in particular
But I'm not going to have fun with it if it doesn't make sense.
You still have to justify why a random collection of molecules confined to space-time can fight gods that supposedly that transcend it.
And by thinking about it you'll only conclude that the "gods" aren't as powerful as they're implied to be.
>Why? He's the smartest man in the world, and most of his strategies are gimmicks.
Dude he can be killed with a stray bullet and we are dealing with creatures that move at or faster than the speed of LIGHT lmao. If you want to take things as seriously as possible he would be a complete non factor in any legitimate fight.
>Superman isn't inherently special.
I mean why not
>He's not the strongest, his powers are just fueled by a powerful source
... yeah? That source makes him the strongest.
>It makes no sense for him to be at the top of a universe with gods who transcend physical matter.
I mean which ones are you talking about here? When Superman conflicted with the Quintessence he wasn't exactly punching them lol. These fictional gods have physical bodies, and if they have those projections then there's no reason why Superman couldn't take on those
>But I'm not going to have fun with it if it doesn't make sense.
Again dude, you're probably in the wrong medium/genre. None of this shit makes any sense
>You still have to justify why a random collection of molecules confined to space-time can fight gods that supposedly that transcend it.
Because the "gods" are clearly limited, as otherwise cosmic events would just be some 4D books folding in on themselves as these "transcendent" beings duke it out.
Which I guess is what Morrison keeps trying to make (and he is... unique in this regard). But again, he translates the core appeal of the character- that at his core, Superman is meant to be "big hero guy"- and finds metanarrative ways to adapt Superman to those threats too. Superman Beyond was really great
>And by thinking about it you'll only conclude that the "gods" aren't as powerful as they're implied to be.
Mostly yes, with some caveats
There was actually a pretty fascinating interview with Kirby about introducing Superman to the Fourth World with Infinity Man
https://twomorrows.com/kirby/articles/17tot.html
If you make sense of it then it makes sense.
The problem is that Superman is just a collection of cells that derives his powers from the Sun. That's always going to be his limit.
So anyone he can fight (let alone defeat) is necessarily going to be weak when compared to real cosmic beings who'd be able to disintegrate Superman with a mere thought.
I like his power set itself more than I like his "power level" or however you feel like calling it. Like
said, a "super man" shouldn't be quite up there with gods and such beings. Always rubbed me wrong even in the DCAU where he humiliated Kalibak and Darkseid. Tangentially it's why I can't take JLA/Avengers seriously. DUDE! You had all the parallels you needed! The Man of Steel? Well here's the God of Thunder (a literal terrestrial mortal man vs an immortal sky god)
>Hal literally shows up out of nowhere to one shot Mandrakk
You mean the remainder of the GL showed up to kill a decrepit Mandrakk in a lower dimension.
>Flash is so broken
That "Speedforce lol" became a joke that people who weren't in on the joke took seriously and ran to the ground.
Personally I like when it's SuperMAN, the Man of Tomorrow and not SuperArchetype, the Goodness of Good and Comics 😛
>a "super man" shouldn't be quite up there with gods and such beings.
I mean it's fiction
You're placing a heavy weight on the label of "god" when the characters in question don't come close to deserving the term outside of odd hax here and there
I don't see any issues with an alien in this fictional universe being powerful enough to take on a god in that fictional universe, the same way I don't see any issues with a human in that universe powering himself up enough to take on an alien as well
>You mean the remainder of the GL showed up to kill a decrepit Mandrakk in a lower dimension.
Sure, but just think about how ridiculous that sounds
And given the relentless Halposting on Cinemaphile I'm guessing a true list of bullshit Hal Jordan feats isn't necessary
>That "Speedforce lol" became a joke that people who weren't in on the joke took seriously and ran to the ground.
Yeah but it's also because super speed is an inherently broken power. If you actually want to give Flash the highest speed of any character, he will never lose a fight
>Personally I like when it's SuperMAN, the Man of Tomorrow and not SuperArchetype, the Goodness of Good and Comics 😛
I like both, which is why my initial post stated that he works in both extremes. GA Supes and Morrison's AC are fantastic for what you're talking about, but All Star and SA Supes are great too
What I'm trying to say is that I totally get you if you're saying you prefer the side of Superman that's more down to Earth (literally)
But if you can't see the appeal in "likable hero beats the crap out of big bad guy" then I think we just have a fundamental difference in taste.
And that's okay. I don't much care for wacky iterations of Batman but I get that they have a really devoted fanbase. Similarly I get why people are upset with the "darker" take on the character that I usually enjoy. But both have merits that I think dueling fans lose sight of when making business asks to prioritize what work gets produced
Well, to each his own, right?
>true list of bullshit Hal Jordan feats isn't necessary
No, but Hal also troubles me. Not every emotional entity is willpower-based! He shouldn't be able to rape Nekron with willpower because Nekron is not the willpower entity! I don't like it when characters randomly leave the stations I made up for them in my own head (that most writers seem to agree with) for the sake of plot. I'd argue sacrificing some semblance of integrity just to have an excuse for the good guys to win is just as bad, if not worse than what you said later in your post about likable heroes and big bad guys.
>If you actually want to give Flash the highest speed of any character,
If it were up to me, Hermes/Mercury would be logarithmically faster than the entire Speedforce.
>"likable hero beats the crap out of big bad guy"
Generally? It's a good thing, and Superman is one of the best! But not every bad guy needs to keel over, there should be a cap, or in the example I brought up, not every (literally a god) powerhouse from a different company has to crumble like crouton. You know? And I tend to place gods on a pedestal since childhood so you'll have to excuse me for being obstinate about this.
>True Darkseid.
I hate this.
I hate this so much.
Morrison ruined the New Gods.
I have to go but I just want to say good talking to you and the other guy even if it seems like we disagree on a ton
One thing I do want to respond to before I leave is
>And I tend to place gods on a pedestal since childhood so you'll have to excuse me for being obstinate about this.
That's actually really interesting. I am and have always been strongly religious, but I think that's always resulted in me eliminating fictional """gods'""" pedestals entirely
>I have to go
>before I leave
>since childhood
>being obstinate
homie no one cares about your life story. go write a fricking blog.
>I am and have always been strongly religious
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
>but I think that's always resulted in me eliminating fictional """gods'""" pedestals entirely
Makes sense. I don't worship "pagan" gods, but I read about Heracles before I read about Superman. The Greek, Norse, Egyptian and Aztec gods are more "intimate" with me than Big Two superheroes because of that.
It's good to part ways in good terms. Have a good day.
>I hate this.
>I hate this so much.
>Morrison ruined the New Gods.
Because the New Gods were never meant to be anything more than mere villains and they will eventually get retconned back into mere villains.
In fact it's already happening.
I mean, Moore is the one that basically introduced the idea of versions of superhero IPs where "it's all true, but here's the new game plus."
In other words, like Miracle Man was all those things you knew about from when you were a kid, but here's the new stuff. swamp Thing was that guy Alec Holland, sure, but really he just thought he was, and he's really an eldritch piece of, uh, The Green that's existed forever. Gaiman is all like, "Yeah, OK 'Sandman.'" Sure he was some mortal, gas-mask-wearing guy from the 30s and also some orange-and-yellow-suit guy from the 70s, but he also happens to be the Morpheus version of Dream of the Endless, and Daniel is His son and replacement. Johns can make every Brainiac the True Brainiac that Superman never even met, not even pre-Crisis.
Why can sometimes Superman move a planet when other times Superman can barely lift 10 tons. For a ton of time it was
>muh pre-Crisis vs. post-Crisis
No, it's all true. He's a solar battery, and his abilities are a reflection of the amount of comicsmagicbullshit in his cells.
Darkseid can be a lil b***h all the time, but still be the Tiger Force At The Center Of All Things.
>Darkseid can be a lil b***h all the time, but still be the Tiger Force At The Center Of All Things.
The latter was a statement he made *about* himself to hype himself up in the first place!
Where to begin?
Will "I just don't like it and it soured the brand for me" suffice? I understand if it doesn't, heh, but maybe I can express my distaste more profoundly. I think Darkseid being the literal "conceptual god of evil" is lame because his original gimmick, where he was a being of immense power BUT not absolute in any capacity outside of personal identity/ego (the DS I know was otherwise a paper tiger, as it were). He certainly wasn't "god of evil" in my book, he was tyranny. When you have these archetypal concepts projecting lesser selves into the Multiverse through boomtubes, instead of being the gods themselves changing dimensionality through boomtubes, it takes away from the gods as characters as WE know them, because you can just say "oh Lightray (my favorite) was a projection all this time". And besides, what the hell kind of concept is a character like Mantis supposed to embody anyway?
But Darkseid is the God of Evil.
>like Mantis
I mean...you just headcanon the answer to this question. It's like Marvel Asgardians where not every god is The God of a thing, but the race of beings is inherently more durable, long-lived, strong, and then certain members can exceed base-stats to be e.g. Thor or Loki or Ares or Hercules. And, yeah sure, sentry can utterly rap Ares.
>And, yeah sure, sentry can utterly rap Ares.
But that doesn't make the Sentry look strong, it makes the gods look weak.
Because you're tearing them down to the Sentry's level.
Mantis is a big boy, not someone like Volstagg. And less than gods having spheres, I was talking about them being, and perhaps embodying entire overarching concepts outside the universe. That's never been the way I saw New Gods and it wounded me deeply.
>sentry can utterly rap Ares.
Sentry, the guy in control of a dimension with a million supernovae? Who is perhaps God's very own Angel of Death, who killed Egypt's young? That Sentry? 😛
>Who is perhaps God's very own Angel of Death, who killed Egypt's young? That Sentry? 😛
N-n-n-nooooooooo
Even if that's canon.....n-n-n-no
>Wolverine fights the Angel of Death every time he would have died, and his regen if based off him winning the fight!
N-n-n-n-noooooooooo.
>Deathstroke almost stole Kyle Rayner's power ring in Identity Crisis and stabbed Wally West faster than he could react!
N-n-n-n-noooooooooooooo.
>Scott and Logan are gay for each other, and Jean gets to frick whomever!
N-n-n-oh frick...Yeah, I guess so.
I'd feel ambivalent about it, but it's the only way that issue makes any sense.
>where he humiliated Kalibak and Darkseid
this is kind more of a 90s Darkseid problem. Kirby Clearly didn't have New God powerlevels set all THAT high b/c he wrote that shit in prehistory, and blahblahblah we didn't know what a "reality warper+-tier being" really was yet.
Beyonder came later, and
>in b4 someone posts some shit about Mad Jim Jaspers being from 1973 or some esoteric shit
>in b4 Destiny, Phantom Stranger, The Living Tribunal, the other Marvel cosmic hierarchy were here on 22nd of November in 1963 at Daley Plaza
Fortunately, kinda Morrison and Morrisongays' headcanon created the concept of True Darkseid.
Like, Darkseid jobbed fricking hard to, of all shitass characters, Doomsday back in the day. and while Final Crisis and the Batman run that surrounds it aren't perfect, uh, it accomplished a bunch of shit for the mythos. And, years later, hack-ass, no-name DC pleb-tier writers ARE using those ideas for the piss-poor, post-Snyder (Scott this time, not Hack....but, frick, he also turned out to be a massive hack with half the half-life of Johns) Dark Crisis shit.
Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle, FC, and obviously The Multiversity Guidebook #1 at least canonize the mutiversal/otherworldly nature of the New Gods, where, like, yeah, they were always initially envisioned as superpowerful aliens.
Like Kirby had Thor n shit travel through time. thor couldn't wave his hand and do <i>whatever</i> he wanted. Sometimes Odin could. But Darkseid jobbed hard to pre-Crisis Superman and was always a gayass homosexual on the 80s Superfriends show on the level of the Inspector Gadget antagonist dude with the cat.
Kirby clearly*
That isn't his name
He is very attractive and I want that show about clark kent to be made. A slice of life cartoon with him at the daily planet would be kino.
A israeli gary stu that no WASP can relate to. This has always been the case.
I like Superman. He's tries to be a nice guy which is more than I can say about most people.
what're you doing, Cinemaphile?
suckmyduplicateimagedick,youjannypieceofshithomosexuals
a cute dork
I don't think you could argue that alien is a title comparable to gods unless you're heavily restricting godhood.
Aliens are still bound by the laws of the universe, gods aren't.
It depends on whether or not you establish a race of gods that is expressly distinct from evolved races. If, for example, the word "god" means nothing to you, then perhaps cape comics have burned you out on the meaning of things!
Gods are necessarily tied to the creation and maintenance of the universe.This is the case in all religions.
Aliens are just a part of the universe. A leaf in the wind.
Well said, but cape comics tend to muddle things. How are mythological cosmogonies reconciled with brand-original cosmic abstracts, for example? Odin created Eternity, Atlas lifts him?
i think he's awesome and is in dire need of a movie by next year. i just wish he was more relatable though or had more of a personal life i guess besides banging louis and being an orphan, you don't need to take his powers away or anything but still.
...there's been no production announcements, and movies take at least a year to make
Meh
I love him. At his best, Superman is such a great character that can represent so many things, but most of all represents the champion of everyone’s freedoms.
I do agree that Superman can be portrayed as TOO powerful, but when he’s the right balance he really works perfectly as someone who just feels like the champion of right.
If you asked me what the definitive Superman stories/mediums are, I’d say
>Clan of the Fiery Cross (radio)
>Meteorite From Krypton/Scarlet Widow/Atom Man/Atom Man in Metropolis (radio)
>For the Man Who Has Everything
>Superman and the Molemen
>George Reeves’ Superman (first episode and Panic In The Sky)
>STAS (the Darkseid episodes and World’s Finest)
>Donner’s films
he is the best superhero