The Akatsuki is such a strange unit.
It's based on the Strike and you can see it has the same frame, but it somehow seems to perform at the same level as the SF and IJ without an NJC.
It's a cool design, really feels like a perfect follow up from the strike by utilizing versatility unlike the Freedom.
>but it somehow seems to perform at the same level as the SF and IJ without an NJC
No? Those guys were soloing fleets.
I only remember the Freedom doing that with its Dragoons.
The Justice can only get to that level with the Meteor Unit.
But the base Justice is all close range.
Orb had years to tweak and upgrade the design.
It's defensive power is off the charts even by Seed Destiny standards. With jt being able to deflect even Lohengrin blasts and protect entire ships from beam attack.
It'd be lore breaking if the setting actually cared about lore. Akatsuki makes no sense and feels like an overpowered OVA or manga unit.
>overpowered
Not at all. S.F. has how many guns able to fire all at once without melting parts of it? Able to fire remotely? Able to fly independently and follow commands from some mental system or just run on AI? Combined with energy output for limbs and thrusters?
Also able to go from atmosphere to space and handle both scenarios almost equally with the one major exception being dragoons can't fly in atmosphere? I.J. has a huge back-pack on top of already making a mech, which it can operate remotely or stand on. Akatsuki is just the defensive option beside the one that's about guns and range and the one that's able to get in real close with various energy blades.
SF does nothing unique in the setting. It's another unit with dragoons. IJ is just Justice with more pointy bits. No new technology on it. Nothing those two suits have isn't something another unit in the setting could get. Every piece of technology on them has been seen on other units. Akatsuki has super armor that eats and sends back beams including anti matter weapons without a scratch. It doesn't seem to have limits. Nothing else in the setting has the armor. The armor doesn't make sense and it doesn't make sense for Orb to be able to make it. Hell, the lore says the armor costs as much as 20 M1. That's it. I'd take 5 Akatsuki over 100 M1 any day.
There's a first for everything in any setting. How did they reach that?
We can't do anything on the level of Gundam right now, so there's no surefire way to claim X Gundam is easier to achieve than Y Gundam.
ORB also poured tons into Akatsuki and kept it a secretive, last resort project. They weren't fielding many kinds and waves of Gundam-level suits like the other two organizations, so they could focus their efforts on this defensive option. Meanwhile the other two focused on more destructive suits and produced much more.
Akatsuki is simply what happens if you focus your research on defense more than offense. Phase Shift is already about manipulating energy across the surface. It's really not a stretch in some loose sci-fi setting to have someone produce ONE unit that absorbs and emits energy.
Everyone was focused on producing defensive measures. That's why beam shields, positron reflectors and
Lightwave Barriers exist. Phase Shift runs out when not powered by nuclear energy. The Akatsuki has a battery and yet can block any beam without ever running out of power. It powers the armor and the dragoons with a battery. Orb is bullshit and Akatsuki breaks the lore of the world.
Which is why I only mentioned beams which is most of the arsenal of all late game Cosmic Era machines. Strike Freedom being the only one of the final 4 suits that has physical weapons outside of vulcans.
The point is that Orb focused down hard on one suit in particular and one defense more than offense. Combine that with not spending resources upgrading or fully replacing multiple Gundam-tier machines on the scale of the other two organizations and it makes fine sense. It's basically a matter of quality vs quantity. Orb chose the former, but even then Akatsuki has weaknesses despite its strengths.
All organizations had stuff the other didn't at one point. Why didn't Zaft just make their own Gundams instead of stealing and risking valuable operatives? Part of the answer is that each group has different minds, different breakthroughs and different priorities and so they will come up with achievements that the other won't until after them, if ever. Akatsuki is simply an example of a breakthrough happening during the series rather than before it.
The suit has the same offensive capabilities as the others. It's not lacking in that regard. It has 3 ranged weapons and two beam sabers that can combine. In space it has dragoons even better than Strike Freedom's and Legends.
Why would ZAFT make their own Gundams when Gundams didn't exist until Orb and the EA collaborated? ZAFT had MS before anyone else and then made their own Gundams and used PS better than the EA and Orb with Genesis. It has nothing to do with different mindsets. Orb was still making MS outside of the Akatsuki with the Murasame. The only organization with a different mindset was the EA who wanted to focus on MA over MS. The Akatsuki being the massive hidden project that has nothing to do with anything else was stupid. It doesn't fit anywhere. You can see the logic in nearly every other MS being made by organizations except the Akatsuki. It has no real lineage for the armor.
>MS don't exist
and then ZAFT had MS
>Gundam don't exist
and then they did
Different people in different areas will have differing ideas and breakthroughs, which is why they don't all just come up with the same tech at about the same time (getting data from spying and downed units is often what helps gaps close).
And you're skipping over the part about Gundams being on a whole other level from mass-produced MS. ZAFT and EA were doing much more with their armies while being able to repair, replace and make more powerful Gundam, which are already beyond the mass-produced MS.
So there's nothing odd about Orb pumping out ONE pretty good Gundam, which has strengths others it fought don't but also vulnerabilities others don't, especially when they can get data on suit technology from all sorts of sources.
>and then ZAFT had MS
Building off of worker units.They didn't come from out of nowhere.
>and then they did
Because they used data from the Gundams they stop. It didn't come from out of nowhere. Akatsuki's armor doesn't do that. It comes from out of nowhere.
Not at all. Phase Shift, Mirage and so many other technologies are all about manipulating and directing energy. It really isn't a stretch that someone would think about how to send back beams and figure out how to absorb energy and send it back.
All beams don't work the same. Lasers are different from plasma cannons which are different from antimatter cannons.
That just adds to my point, never mind that I was talking about more than just offensive energy manipulation (even curving them). So many types, but somehow Akatsuki is the big impossible? That's just senseless in such a loose sci-fi setting like Seed and Destiny.
Energy absorption and emission isn't even a new concept. A lot of it just comes down to figuring out materials and builds that can handle the energy both ways. The writers just took it to a place not possible for us now, just like almost everything that would go into making even a basic grunt suit in Cosmic Era.
I don't think the people working on the show knew or cared about that.
>All beams don't work the same. Lasers are different from plasma cannons which are different from antimatter cannons.
It doesnt really matter in a practical sense. Lohengrin cannons are supposed to be different than normal beam cannons. But Akatsuki can deflect it anyway.
Because the show is called "Gundam SEED" and the protagonist at least, needs to pilot a machine that can be called a "Gundam" for the audience to resonate with. I know you're looking for an in-universe reason, but when push comes to shove, commercial reasons like that can bend the laws of physics of a fictional universe into pretzels, much less ascribe peculiar, unexplained motivations for characters actions.
Akatsuki deflecting the Minerva's Tannhauser like the Strike deflecting the Dominion's Lohengrin is a perfect example of this. When pressed on Mwu's demise in SEED, Fukuda laughed and said "Oh, I forgot", and then shamelessly re-used the same footage again in Destiny as if to say "You guys b***hing about consistency with lore and tech? Frick you, I live by rule of cool."
The thing a lot of people forget about the Akatsuki is that because it doesn't have PSA, the drain on its battery isn't as much as a gundam with PSA, which is what Orb would have access to between the wars.
The downside is that the mirror coating is only effective against ranged beams. A creative pilot could probably shoot down the Shiranui's "DRAGOONs" with CIWS shells if they were accurate enough - but that's unlikely to work against the SF, Providence, Legend, even Chaos.
Oowashi Akatsuki is actually a modest unit. Compared to the Blast Impulse you trade VPSA for the mirror coating and a heavier weapons load-out for wings and the ability to fly basically.
The Shiranui is a bit more broken. Even without PSA having "DRAGOONs" that can extend giant beam shields around ships and still be able to operate for a prolonged period is a BIT of a stretch, but not impossible.
Ironically, it would pair well with the Deuteron Beam Transfer system the 2nd-Stage Gundams and the Minerva have for recharging a machine remotely on the field.
>Strike Freedom being the only one of the final 4 suits that has physical weapons
You could technically count the tip of the Destiny's Arondight as well, but that would only be useful against aquatic foes.
>Oowashi Akatsuki is actually a modest unit. Compared to the Blast Impulse you trade VPSA for the mirror coating and a heavier weapons load-out for wings and the ability to fly basically.
It's a much better trade. Phase shift on standard mobile suits is largely irrelevant anyway in Season 2. Every single unit has beam weapons now. So the mirror coating makes much better sense. Hardly anyone mainlines bullets as main weapons anymore.
Plus Akatsuki Mirror Coating can be applied to the backpack and even its weapons and shield. Unlike phase shift armor which never worked on backpack attachments for Strike Gundam.
Phase shift can only block beams if you have a massive power source super charging the armor. Like how the Genesis weapon in Season 1 had phase shift coating and probably multiple nuclear reactors powering the armor.
I’d emphasize that just because because CIWS were hardly used doesn’t mean they weren’t mounted or that an ingenious pilot (e.g., Kira) would forget about them. Grunts also still make use of physical weapons like missiles. If the Akatsuki were a villain’s machine it would belong to some rich kid flouting their wealth and advanced tech only to be defeated when the protagonist falls back to the most basic armaments an MS can have.
If only it had a better shield. Mu “making the impossible possible” shenanigans aside, if the body can withstand ranged particle beams, it would make more sense for the shield to withstand everything else, e.g., not simply break in two upon the Destiny’s Arondight, potentially be built to withstand high-powered physical attacks like rail guns.
>It doesn't seem to have limits.
Its not PS armor so any sort of physical weaponry that hits it will shred the Akatsuki.
It counters beams and only beams.
Beam sabers are also its weakness.
>Akatsuki has super armor that eats and sends back beams including anti matter weapons without a scratch.
Why is seed's technological data such a mess? What, is it not made of matter? What is the implication here?
Fukuda forgot about the anti-matter thing.
Have you seen what the Astray can do?
Which is why I said it felt like it came out of a manga or OVA. It doesn't line up with the rest of the animation.
No, the Astrays made Akatsuki looks tame in comparison. Anti-beam coating? That is just child's play compared to the Red Frame's fricking 150 m katana, the Gold Frame's energy leeching system, the Astray Mirage's disguise-as-other-MS Mirage Colloid, and the Load Astray's impervious armor.
Even the freaking Junk Guild could create something that crazy. The Akatsuki is by no mean OP for C.E. If anything it was an example of Morgenroete holding back.
Did they ever explain how the frick the Load Astray's armor works?
What is there to explain? It's made of a super duper rare metal and impervious to anything not made of the same metal. Never mind how the hell do you even work with something like that.
It was probably made to be as close to the [base] Freedom spec as possible while sticking to the original GAT frame
The Akatsuki is the single ugliest mobile suit in all of SEED, and I include both justices in that assessment. God the CGI gold is so eye searingly gaudy, and slap not one but your choice of two fugly messy backpacks on there I can't even look directly at it.
It's not enough for it to be merely able to soak up some beams like the Hyaku Shiki it draws from no, because this is SEED it needs to reflect them straight back in true playground "No, your lasers don't work and and and also I bounce them all back at you" fashion.
Except I say reflect, but it doesn't reflect. It absorbs the beam and then fires it back out again a moment later.
That it had no expense spared as the personal supremely nepotist flashy chariot of the former leader's daddy's girl so she can be some symbol of the nation is funny in a sad way, but becomes funny in a hilarious way when she gets benched because she's still a shit pilot and they hand the key's to Orb's pride and joy to a literal EA war criminal for the rest of the show.
I still like it, especially the MRD, the gold coating is so nice.
Same.
Still waiting for a HGCE for it. Not paying super money for the MRD.
I would wait for an HG, but it doesn't seem like anything would happen any time soon.
The other alternative is to modify an HGCE strike since they use the same base.
But MRD figures are really fantastic too plus they have resale value, I feel like once I get deeper into that rabbit hole I'm not coming back.
Just think about whether you'll still be excited about the suit months later once you finally get it.
homie you have the big gay and are an atention begging prostitute go back to the gay baby jail where you re daily cbt genital toture sesion will be admenistered
>That it had no expense spared as the personal supremely nepotist flashy chariot of the former leader's daddy's girl so she can be some symbol of the nation is funny in a sad way, but becomes funny in a hilarious way when she gets benched because she's still a shit pilot and they hand the key's to Orb's pride and joy to a literal EA war criminal for the rest of the show.
You can blame Seed Head Writer Morosawa. She is married to the Director of Seed Fukuda. She thought he was having an affair with Cagalli's voice actress (they both deny it). So Morosawa made Cagalli into awful character in the anime purposely to spite the voice actress. Apparently, whatever happened behind the scenes was so bad that Cagalli's voice actress refused to voice Cagalli for years after Seed Destiny ended.
I have never seen any basis for this rumor
Cagalli is not voiced in most srw featuring seed destiny.
I've heard about that, though I haven't verified it myself.
But the thing about the affair is what I meant.
The only thing close to a source I've ever heard for that is just 2chan gossip.
She's not voiced in any, but that's probably because of laziness on the SRW staff and preference to focus on Team Shinn or just be post plot with the lead Gundam's only than any VA trouble. Dearka never is either, because it's not worth bothering to get him just for Dearka and he doesn't voice anyone else.
She still voiced her in plenty of other games, and she's hardly the first person SRW took an excuse not to bother bringing in.
She's voiced in SC2, same with Dearka.
And Dearka's VA also does DaCosta, who IS voiced in Z1.
Why not just go all out at that point instead of pussying out? What will happen if Cagalli was killed off instead near the end of the show?
If Cagalli died then Orb would be fricked and as their ideal Japan they couldn't have that.
They'd just prop up Kira as the de facto figurehead of Orb while the big Nibba Kisaka handles the admin duties.
>Why not just go all out at that point instead of pussying out? What will happen if Cagalli was killed off instead near the end of the show?
Generally, the head writer doesn't have that level of power. Morosawa may not have liked Cagalli's voice actress, but writers cant just kill off major characters in the anime without a discussion and approval from higher ups like Directors and Producers. So at best, Morosawa could only make Cagalli look weak or dumb. But there was a line Morosawa couldn't cross.
Because killing Cagalli would've pissed off the Athrun x Cagalli fangirls even though Cagalli's character "goddess of victory" character from the Desert Dawn Arc must be effectively spayed for that pairing to work in the first place.
Heroes.
I do enjoy the IJ. I only wish it were in a series where it got to show off its CQC ability more.
Just play any game with it included.
>No OMNI suit in sight.
Daggerbros, I don't feel so good.
Akatsuki has Dragoons and is immune to beams and it's lack of phase shift means it has energy to spare, but it's not nearly as powerful as an NJC machine as it being overpowered by Destiny shows.
So they had a seed destiny level Gundam locked away since the Seed era?
It wasn't completed until later, and it's not really on the level of a Seed Destiny Gundam. Power and output wise Akatsuki is only a slightly improved Strike. It's effectiveness comes from it having a Beam reflection system making it invulnerable to most suit's main weapons, no phase shift so it doesn't have the battery issues other Gundam's do and a powerful Dragoon system that can also project a shield.
In a head to head fight, Akatsuki stands no chance against a Seed Destiny Gundam, as shown when Shinn easily start's overpowering it.
Cagalli's just a shit pilot.
Shinn would've got wrecked if Mu was piloting it.
Potentially, but only in the way that Mu wouldn't have piloted like he did in the Windam against Shinn and played keep away and worked to the suits strengths because he'd a good pilot and knows how to do that. If he fought head to head like Cagalli did he probably wouldn't have done any better.
>Power and output wise Akatsuki is only a slightly improved Strike.
>As mentioned a thousand fricking times, the only thing special about it is the armor.
Which puts it on Seed Destiny level power.
Cagalli may not be able to use its full power. But when Mwu piloted Akatsuki, he was killing wave after wave of Seed Destiny enemies.
A "strike gundam" can't do that. Kira tried the same thing with Strike Rouge and the Zakus and Goufs completely owned Kira and wrecked his machine.
Akatsuki did the same thing with ease. If Mwu piloted Akatsuki, then it beat Legend. And Beat Destiny. Shinn sucks against funnel units.
Strike Rouge doesn't have Dragoons and is immune to beam fire.
>and is immune to beam fire
you what
That was poorly phrased, but I was trying to have "Dragoon and is immune to beam fire" like one whole thing Strike Rouge lacked.
>Strike Rouge doesn't have Dragoons and is immune to beam fire.
Which is why Akatsuki is Seed Destiny level of Power. It's not some Strike Gundam variant as you imply.
Physically the Akatsuki is deliberately a very close match to the Strike Gundam's body and structure. However, the tech on it is far more advanced than the original Strike.
The original Akatsuki was based on Strike Gundam
But under the hood is a completely different animal.
It's like two of the same model cars, but one car has had a complete engine swap, the entire suspension system upgraded, fuel system changed, etc.
Like that one guy who put a Corvette Engine in his old car. 1000 horse power compared to the old 180 horse power clunker.
They look the same, but the performance is hugely different in a race
Did I already not say the tech is already far more advanced?
Not him... but instead of saying Akatsuki is an upgraded Strike Gundam... it's better to say the only thing it has in common with Strike Gundam is the frame. Everything else is different.
Do you count the wienerpit as the frame because it still has the GAT style layout?
Orb is one of the richest countries in the Seed world. They make trillions upon trillions of dollars. And they are only an island nation.
They can afford Cagalli whatever style wienerpit she wants. If they kept the Gat style wienerpit it's because probably it's what Cagalli is used to or prefers
Why even keep the GAT-X frame then? Just make a better MS but keep the same wienerpit. Not that they ever asked her if she's okay with a new wienerpit or prefers the old one.
The other advanced MS frames ORB had access to were unsuitable for various reasons:
>Astray frame
basically open-source at this point thanks to Lowe, also a GAT-derivative
>ZAFT GUNDAM Frame
heavily reliant on an NJC-equipped reactor which they can't use on principle
>Eclipse frame
probably GAT-derived as well (as well as serving as basically ORB black-ops)
Most likely a GAT frame or two was already set aside from the development of the original five Gundams, and the rest of the time was spent developing (or reverse-engineering) the tech for the other features (autonomous-deployment Striker packs, DRAGOON tech), which was piled onto the poor GAT frame.
>Why even keep the GAT-X frame then? Just make a better MS but keep the same wienerpit. Not that they ever asked her if she's okay with a new wienerpit or prefers the old one.
Strike Rouge has become a symbol for the Orb Nation. Especially after it fought in the final battles of Seed. Like an Eagle for the United States.... Everyone recognizes Strike Rouge when it appears.
So making Akatsuki resemble Strike Rouge is only natural. It's so Orb citizens can recognize its related to Strike Rouge and be inspired by it.
By this point, I assume if it ain't broke, don't fix it. The Duel's frame got reused tons of times for others.
It literally just werks. They could have just stuck a nuclear reactor in it tbh.
>Shinn sucks against funnel units.
I don't know where this comes from. Shinn dodged Strike Freedom's funnels. Kira had to follow up with the railguns while Shinn was dodging. Funny thing is that I don't remember Rau, Mwu or Rey doing any follow up like that with other weapons.
Shinn got tagged by Neo's funnels. Then he needed the Wings of Light activated just to dodge Kira's funnels. But Rey didn't need super speed to dodge Kira's funnels in the slower legend gundam. And Athrun dodged Legend's funnels with no discerning effort.
Shinn got grazed by Neo's funnels in the third episode of the show. Shinn didn't activate the wings in response to Kira using the funnels. Kira used the funnels after Shinn used the wings. Legend and Infinite Justice move as fast as the plot wants them to move. Strike Freedom and Destiny have no speed advantage against either unit whenever the plot calls for it.
Who is the better man in general through, Shinn or Kira?
Kira. Shinn is by far the main interesting character but he's also a massive jackass with serious character problems while Kira is an all loving and forgiving nice guy who would rather die than kill Shinn.
An "all loving and forgiving nice guy" who screws over his friends several times, and gives back handed apologies for doing so later. Shinn is at least honest in his abrasive actions; Kira's personality is more of a veneer of niceness over arrogance.
Why that prick thinks he can look down his nose on anybody I'll never know.
At best it's only on the level of the Freedom and Providence and even then it doesn't carry either as many weapons as them and can't last anywhere near as long. As mentioned a thousand fricking times, the only thing special about it is the armor.
>Builds secret mobile suit for daughter using taxpayer money
>Gives it super special armor that costs as much as 20+ M1 Astrays
>Slaps a weapon that said daughter can't even use on it
Uzumi is on a whole 'nother level
Remember that this is the moron who blew himself up with most of his government, allowing the Seirans take over prior to the events of Destiny.
Well.... she killed like 30 Zaft units by herself right? akatsuki probably already paid for itself...
She got like 10 kills max.
I dunno man. Akatsuki was reflecting a lot of beams
Actually counted because I was bored. Her on-screen kills were:
1 DINN, 2 BABI (reflected beams), 4 GOUF, and a Geo-GOOhN.
Of course, Neo later got more kills with the Akatsuki, but I don't feel like counting those.
Those 20 Astrays would probably have prevented Orb's collapse
Take 3 of them and put Kira, Athrun and Mwu in them. Take the remaining 17 and put clones of that Orb loyalist who kamikaze'd the Minerva at Crete in them. There. Those 20 Astrays are arguably more effective than Cagalli in the Akatsuki is.
What made it so funny is how those Zakus and Goufs still gang up on Akatsuki in the Requiem battle. Did they not get any reports from the battle at Orb or something?
Headcanon, but the Le Creuset team was the only one within the area of the battle and I guess Rau didn't care enough to report battle data.
What the frick are you talking about?
Shit I thought we were talking about the FIRST Battle of Orb. Disregard this.
Were talking about Akatsuki. Are you moronic? It wasn’t at the first battle
I know everything just coalesced. I blame the stock footage abuse.
So your head cannon is that Rau was there years after his death?
Even if they did it's not like they had a long detailed briefing for every pilot in Zaft about the specs of every enemy mobile suit and how to avoid it. It's like why they didn't come up with a counter strategy for SF and IJ.
But why not? Orb has 3 unique units that need to be watched out for. Early in Wing and 00, we had the enemies do briefings on each Gundam and how to combat them before their big operations on defeating the Gundams. Wouldn't it make sense for ZAFT to do the same thing instead of basically going, "good luck out there".
Difference is they'd had several encounters with the Gundam's and were planning on taking them down. Not only had they only fought SF twice and IJ and Akatsuki once, but Durandal had been trying to play the good guy on the world stage, so he couldn't have had everyone planning on taking out Orb preemptively until they attacked them.
You only need 1 or 2 encounters to know what weapons a suit has and to try and plan against it. Kira isn't killing his enemies and isn't even destroying their suits. The suits themselves and the pilots have more than enough info to try and come up with a strategy other than stand still and shoot. Durandal needed to take down Orb's fleet in the final battle. There is no excuse not to have strategy meetings that use your superior numbers to win. Even the meteor should have been accounted for since they used them in the previous war.
In real life, soldiers are trained on identifying enemy weapons and knowing their characteristics, including strengths and weaknesses, weapons capabilities, etc. Knowledge is useful and can literally mean the difference between life and death.
Durandal wasn't thinking straight after not nutting in Talia for so long. Notice how he was so much smarter at the start, after that liaison onboard the Minerva? All he needed was another quickie in the captain's quarters, and we would've witnessed a different kind of FLAWLESS VICTORY.
See also: Mwu nutting hard enough to undo brainwashing.
I thought a mobile suit with beam REFLECTOR plating would be treated more seriously. Least they can do is not shoot 1000 beam rifle rounds at it like a moron. I'm pretty sure Destiny Guaiz are equipped with hip railguns like the Freedom.
I mean, it's literally the only golden mobile suit in Lacus army, surely it's not hard to identify even visually.
Stop thinking like an audience member who has seen the anime, and think like a character in the show. Think from their perspective. Not yours.
If you are some random Zaft pilot, you don't have access to all information. Only what info you are given by your superiors.
Imagine you encounter some random golden mobile suit while on the battlefield. Your unit only has beam weapons. A beam rifle and beam Axe. Your only option is to shoot the Golden mobile suit with your teammates laying down suppressing beam fire. It dodges a lot of fire, and something strange happens when a few shots connect. A bright light happens and suddenly half your teammates explode. You have no idea what just happened. You barely caught a glimpse.
You continue shooting the golden mobile suit hoping to take it down. It swoops down in close and blows off your left leg, and swings around destroys and shoots right above your reactor. Alarms go crazy in your wienerpit. Your reactor suddenly redlines, and you have mere seconds before it goes critical. You are forced to eject, and hit the emergency eject button. Your front hatch blows open, you jump, and you bail out using your rocket pack.
A few moments later your suit blows up in a fireball. And you are thrown forward and hit the ground hard. Your arm is fractured, and your helmet cracked open.
Then golden mobile zips away to another part of the battlefield while you lay wounded on the ground. It all happened so fast. It was over in a few seconds. Then your black out from the pain.
>If you are some random Zaft pilot, you don't have access to all information. Only what info you are given by your superiors.
Which should be "watch out, they have a golden MS that reflects beams". Shinn figures it out in 5 seconds. If ZAFT intelligence isn't sending information around on the enemy mobile suits then the organization is shit. It's not thinking like an audience member. It's thinking with common sense. We see in other Gundam shows like Wing and 00, the capabilities of the enemies being discussed. Hell, Wing even has Taurus using a new weapon that gets through the PD. The only time this happens in Seed/Destiny is Rey discussing the Freedom's fighting style with Shinn.
Imagine having a special meeting for every special snowflake mobile suit from the special snowflake faction.
Imagine not having a meeting for the 3 unique suits that are the core of your enemies fleet. Imagine not having a meeting for a suit that nullifies 99% of your arsenal.
That's stupid and isn't the case in this franchise.
>That's stupid and isn't the case in this franchise.
Plenty of mobile suits are classified in this series. Wtf you talking about. GAT Series, Freedom, Justice, Destroy Gundam, etc. All classified. Info was not willingly shared about any of the units.
People talk about them after encountering them. Nobody is told not to talk about the suits after seeing them on the battlefield. That's moronic and I don't know why you are pretending that's the case.
>People talk about them after encountering them.
Not if it's classified and you are ordered to shut up and not talk about.
Stop reaching. You don't know how the Military works.
>Not if it's classified and you are ordered to shut up and not talk about.
Now, show us this happening in Gundam.
Literally the whole Archangel and GAT Series. Early in the series, no one knows about the ship or the suits. They were highly classified.
Other Federation members even hold the crew at gun point because they do not believe the story of the Archangel.
Has nothing to do on why they would keep the enemy specs a secret. Besides, even in topgun you see them discussing about the Su-34's capabilities. This is a show not reality.
If you want a simple answer it's that ZAFT doesn't have enough information about Akatsuki to share. They only fought Akatsuki once. This isn't enough data to share with everyone.
And the 2nd time they fought, it had a new configuration. Even Freedom Gundam was classified until the specs were leaked by Rau.
How would Zaft know Akatsuki's specs unless they had a spy in the Cagalli loyalist faction that built it? At least with Freedom they actually built the thing so they'd have access to them.
That's not even what I'm talking about. Zaft isn't hiding information about the Archangel and Strike once they encounter them in the field.
And you aren't listening. Zaft had to fight the Archangel and Strike Gundam numerous times before they had enough data about them. They only encountered Akatsuki once.
And even during later Season 1 Seed episodes the average Zaft mobile suit pilot only vaguely knew about Strike Gundam. They only knew rumors. Not hard data. The Zaft pilots even mistakenly thought the mass produced Strike Dagger suit was the Strike Gundam.
ZAFT didn't have some custom mission briefing with all their ZAFT grunts about all classified information regarding the Strike Gundam and Archangel. No. They didnt. Because one mobile suit can't change the course of the war.
The fact of the matter is that not information is shared. Especially if you are a grunt or random armored vehicle pilot. You are told what your commanders feel you need to know. That's how it's done in the anime and real life. A random tank driver doesn't know every single detail about classified enemy weapons. All they know is their training and orders.
Here you go reaching. You don't need tons of data about the suit to know the basic capabilities and warn your pilots about the important functions of the suit. The Strike uses PSA. You wear it down and then it's useless when it runs out. That was Waltfeld's tactics. ZAFT soldiers shouldn't vaguely know about the unit, they should be briefed on what they could encounter like in Wing and 00. OZ and the 3 Powers didn't have concrete data on the Gundams but they used what they had and came up with gameplans. it's just incompetence by Seed's writing.
>One mobile suit can't change the course of the war
Strike was the ONLY MS the EA had until late in the show. If you can't inform your pilots about one MS and one ship you're shit organization.
Yes but Zaft had hard data on Strike and how PSA worked because they'd captured 4 other similar units. They haven't the slightest clue how the Yata no Kagami system works because Akatsuki was developed in secret and only been used once and nearly every unit that fought it except Destiny was destroyed.
You don't need to know how it works to know it reflects beams and you shouldn't use them against it. Shinn figured that out after two shots.
>Here you go reaching.
Nibba... you were just accused of "reaching" a few posts earlier. If you are going to come up with a retort, then be ORIGINAL instead of copying what people are calling you.
>You don't need tons of data about the suit to know the basic capabilities and warn your pilots about the important functions of the suit.
Except they DONT know the capabilities of Akatsuki. It appeared ONCE, and every suit that fought it was destroyed. With the only exception being Destiny Gundam.
>The Strike uses PSA. You wear it down and then it's useless when it runs out. That was Waltfeld's tactics. ZAFT soldiers shouldn't vaguely know about the unit, they should be briefed on what they could encounter like in Wing and 00. OZ and the 3 Powers didn't have concrete data on the Gundams but they used what they had and came up with gameplans. it's just incompetence by Seed's writing.
ZAFT only knew about PSA because they captured 4 other PSA prototype Gundams. They already had the data.
>Strike was the ONLY MS the EA had until late in the show.
EA suits appeared roughly in the middle of the season. EA mobile suits had been in development for a long while.
>If you can't inform your pilots about one MS and one ship you're shit organization
That's your ill-informed opinion. The fact of the matter is that this is how its done in the anime and in real life. They didnt know enough info about the Akatsuki to tell their soldiers anything.
>Except they DONT know the capabilities of Akatsuki. It appeared ONCE, and every suit that fought it was destroyed. With the only exception being Destiny Gundam.
They know it reflects beams.
>ZAFT only knew about PSA because they captured 4 other PSA prototype Gundams. They already had the data.
And they spread that info around. Again, Wing and 00 show you don't need to have the blueprints of a suit to build a plan against it.
>EA suits appeared roughly in the middle of the season. EA mobile suits had been in development for a long while.
The Dagger first deploys in 37. The last stretch of the show. Far beyond the halfway point.
>That's your ill-informed opinion. The fact of the matter is that this is how its done in the anime and in real life
Except I've already proven that isn't how it's done. The franchise has people talk about enemy suits in multiple shows. Not my fault the only show you've seen is Seed. Even ZZ had Neo Zeon pilots knowing the suit docked and trying to prevent it.
Talking to you is exhausting.
Whether you approve or not, this is what happened in the show. You may not LIKE It (which is a different argument) but that's what happened. Accept it. Repeating your same talking points over and over won't change the story.
Zaft didn't know about Akatsuki's existence. They barely knew anything about it after 1 battle. And there's not much they can do about it since their entire army is primarily equipped with beam weapons now.
>Zaft didn't know about Akatsuki's existence.
Until they did and did nothing about it. They can do something about it since most Zaku in the final battle are using the Blaze pack with missiles. I'm not trying to change the story, I'm calling it out for being bad.
>They can do something about it since most Zaku in the final battle are using the Blaze pack with missiles.
Why are you acting like that would make a difference? Akatsuki is a super Gundam, and not going to get taken down by grunt missiles. It was so high performance that Akatsuki was already dodging much faster beams
No shit they wouldn't win. That's not the point. The point is that the characters in the show don't know they are going to lose so they should be written to do everything in their power to win.
Who is to say enemy didn't fire missiles at Akatsuki? And that Akatsuki just dodged it and killed them? The larger point you seem to be missing is that those grunt machines were irrelevant to Akatsuki. Nothing more than cannon fodder barely worth showing in split second cut to the audience as Akatsuki destroys them in a single hit. Only an Ace unit like Destiny Gundam or stronger could challenge it.
>Who is to say enemy didn't fire missiles at Akatsuki? And that Akatsuki just dodged it and killed them?
Because we can say anything happened off screen. They showed the Akatsuki reflecting beams in the final battle so they could have shown it dodging missiles to at least make Zaft look competent.
>The larger point you seem to be missing is that those grunt machines were irrelevant to Akatsuki. Nothing more than cannon fodder barely worth showing in split second cut to the audience as Akatsuki destroys them in a single hit. Only an Ace unit like Destiny Gundam or stronger could challenge it.
No, you're missing the larger point. No one is saying that the grunts are going to beat the Akatsuki. That's not what I or others are arguing. We're arguing that the show should show Zaft trying to counter the unit. Regardless of if it works or not. An intelligent show would have had Zaft warn its pilots about an MS that makes their primary weapons useless. An intelligent show would have shown Akatsuki dealing with units that use physical weapons like missiles. That makes Mwu look like a better pilot. That makes Akatsuki look like a better unit that can handle its own weaknesses. That makes Zaft look intelligent for trying to counter Akatsuki's greatest strength. There is no downside to it other than the show having to animate something new. You can say that for the entire final battle of Seed Destiny.
But what your saying makes no sense. How can they counter a unit they never fought before? ZAFT only fought Akatsuki once on Earth. That was during its debut battle. No one knew how to counter it. It was brand new. It was killing every grunt it encountered.
Except Shinn fought it, figured out how to counter it, and would’ve destroyed it but for Kira’s intervention.
This has been said multiple times. Stop being a moron.
Bruh, a ton of Zaft pilots fought Akatsuki including their "super ace". The Archangel and Minerva were able to witness the battles between Strike Freedom and Destiny and Akatsuki and Destiny on their monitors. They can see and have first hand accounts that it can reflect beams. This translates to the final battle where they should be prepared for it.
Not the anon you’re replying to, but, hit damn, fully agree with everything you said.
At the same time, reading your post, I couldn’t help but think of all the times Kira and Athrun autistically shot beam after beam right into the Forbidden’s Geschmeidig Panzer.
>Except I've already proven that isn't how it's done.
You haven't proven anything. Every point you brought up got disproven by anons. But you still continue to argue. Information is not always shared with everyone. That's just how it is.
>Information is not always shared with everyone
And I'm arguing that it should be and is in many cases and it makes no sense not to.
Oh, look. Reddit spacing-kun strikes again, once again confusing reality with their naive take on what happened and getting mad when people challenge it.
On the Archangel, Athrun and Meyrin were able to watch the Akatsuki and Destiny fight. It stands to reason that ZAFT MS would be relaying some information back to their mother ships (camera feeds, for instance) on the state of the battle, or crewmen on ships could simply take a set of binoculars and watch the Akatsuki reflect grunt blasts from afar, and then this information got relayed back to HQ somehow. If Orb wanted to use the Akatsuki but not let the proverbial cat of its reflective armor out of the bag for ZAFT to potentially plot against in future engagements, they'd need to cut the ability of all Operation Fury forces to relay information back to HQ and then completely wipe out the attack force. They did not, and the one unit that battled the Akatsuki and nearly destroyed it was piloted by a member of FAITH who adapted to it in about 2 moves. Moreover, even then, whose to say ZAFT didn't have spies in Orb watching the battle, like those who found Djibril shaking hands with PM Seiran in the first place?
>Reddit spacing
holy newfriendoli
Everyone ignore this speedwatcher poster. His headcanon is messed up. This anon forgets that "neutron jammers" are a thing in Seed. They are in the air and disrupt long range communication, radar, and other forms of wireless. Plus war is chaotic and not everything works perfectly.
>speedwatcher poster
I won't apologize for being smarter than you.
>This anon forgets that "neutron jammers" are a thing in Seed.
No, they exist. Fukuda just slowly stopped caring about them as SEED. ZAFT operations in SEED and Destiny had them attacking from the sea whilst simultaneously deploying MS teams from orbit, so some form of reliable communication must've been present in order to meaningfully facilitate that.
Moreover, again, guys on the Archangel could watch the Akatsuki fight the Destiny, Rey on the Minerva could watch the Destiny fight the Strike Freedom. Moreover, critical information isn't really something you need complex instruments or diagrams to understand.
>This gold machine can reflect ranged beams, so don't fire them at it.
In addition, Shinn, a member of FAITH answerable to the Supreme Council would be able to add the following:
>Its shield is actually garbage and useless in melee as I could cut through it in 1 hit.
This is not complex intel and there's no reason to believe ZAFT wouldn't have been able to gather it during Operation Fury.
This is why you are a speedwatcher. We see them in the anime repeatedly try to use communications in several scenes, but the characters say they are being jammed, out of range, or unable to establish a clear signal.
>so some form of reliable communication must've been present in order to meaningfully facilitate that.
Its called logistics, and proper planning. They do all the planning beforehand so they don't have to rely on radio signals from the battlefield when enemies are jamming eachother, and N-jammers are floating in the air. It's all planned out beforehand.
It's why ZAFT and EA fire primitive FLARES into the sky to order their troops to retreat. And not just order them over the radio to return. Because communication and wireless transmission is unreliable.
> We see them in the anime repeatedly try to use communications in several scenes, but the characters say they are being jammed, out of range, or unable to establish a clear signal.
It happens sometimes but is not always the case. When it is the case, it is explicitly reported to the viewer, usually by frustration of some characters. During Angel Down the Minerva used jamming shells on the Archangel but ZAFT were still able to get a feed through an aerial unit.
> N-jammers are floating in the air. It's all planned out beforehand
They’re buried deep underground, at least on Earth. This is explicitly stated in SEED. It’s not like UC where the jamming is driven by Minovsky Particle Density in the environment.
Moreover, even if I took your analysis as factual, it still doesn’t address the issue of a few ZAFT managing to capture footage of the Akatsuki in combat, surviving the invasion since they were not all wiped out, and then reporting this information after the battle. The Destiny itself could provide this information since it fought the Akatsuki, then later went back to resupply on the Minerva.
And you call me a speedwatcher. Good grief.
>They’re buried deep underground, at least on Earth. This is explicitly stated in SEED. It’s not like UC where the jamming is driven by Minovsky Particle Density in the environment.
To clarify this, yes, it is possible to put N-Jammers in ships and buildings and activate them from there. I believe during the battle of the 8th fleet in Seed there’s a line at the start of the battle “activate N-Jammers”, and also note that the EA units could still communicate just fine with each other.
But the point is they’re not particles floating in the air, but a field generated by a device.
Jamming in Gundam has always been a plot Macguffin used by the writers when it is convenient.
I think the point other anon was making was that, while not impossible to capture footage of Akatsuki, it would be difficult gather reliable intelligence after just one battle. You only get bits and pieces of info. It usually takes several battles to pieces together a clear picture of a unit's capabilities. This is the same in real life.
A full, precisely detailed picture of the machines combat abilities, e.g., top speed, maneuverability, acceleration would arguably require that and even then it’ll still be an approximate of whatever specs are listed in the technical manual and not absolute. Especially since Cagalli was the pilot and she’s shit in Destiny, not capable of bringing out the machines full potential.
However, such a detailed view of the machine is in no way required to adequately prepare for battle against it. The Akatsuki’s strength is it’s mirror armor gimmick and it took Shinn 2 shots at to realize ranged beams were a no-go and that he should use melee weapons exclusively. The Arondight tore through its shield, the boomerang tore through its arm.
To assert that ZAFT would not be able to gather such basic info on a feature and tell their pilots “if you see this easily-identifiable golden mobile suit, don’t shoot at it with beam rifles or cannons. Melee beams are fine, as are physical projectiles” based on combat data from Operation Fury is patently absurd.
I think it's a matter of not wanting to unnecessarily scare/demoralize your army until you have a clear picture of your enemy, and how to defeat it.
The majority of Zaft's army is equipped with beam weapons. So telling your troops that the enemy now has a unit that can negate your main weapon is not good. It can spread unnecessary rumors and demoralize troops and scare them. In real life this happened. During World War 2, American troops were so scared of the German Tiger tank rumors that they reported seeing Tigers all over the place in Europe when it wasn't true. Out of fear, the Americans ended up reporting more Tiger tank sightings in France than the Germans ever manufactured during the war.
And this is just terrible reasoning. What you’re advocating for is that, when ZAFT pilots see the golden Gundam, they should not be aware that ranged beams don’t work and they need to do something else. That they should just fire a beam rifle at it like it’s no different from a Murasame or Astray and die when said beam gets reflected back at them and they’re surprised and don’t react in time rather than resorting to a physical weapon like a Blaze ZAKU’s missiles, a GOUFs heat whip, or ANY melee weapon like a beam tomahawk or GOUF sword since the Akatsuki’s shield cannot block it.
Yeah, telling the soldiers that the enemy has a machine that counters a significant number of their weapons might be demoralizing, but that is war. Better that they learn of it ahead of time so they can be informed and spend hours or maybe days thinking about what to do if they come across it than to learn of said feature in the thick of battle and have a few seconds to react to their own shot coming back to end their own life in the worst case.
Partially, but the EA shields don’t reflect. Still, ZAFT adapted after the Zamza-zah appeared. That’s why the Legend has less DRAGOON guns than the Providence but it’s large DRAGOONs have beam spike that can go through EA positron reflectors.
> So telling your troops that the enemy now has a unit that can negate your main weapon is not good. It can spread unnecessary rumors and demoralize troops and scare them.
As opposed to them finding out in situ and getting scared and demoralized in the middle of a fricking battle? Which is objectively worse, since it's a lot harder to prepare or reassure them then.
> In real life this happened. During World War 2, American troops were so scared of the German Tiger tank rumors that they reported seeing Tigers all over the place in Europe when it wasn't true. Out of fear, the Americans ended up reporting more Tiger tank sightings in France than the Germans ever manufactured during the war.
That isn't the same thing though; what you're pointing out is a situation where the troops were passing rumors among themselves about something without command taking control of the situation and giving them information to stop the spread of rumors. You are, essentially, disproving your own point; especially when it was apparent pretty quickly that for all the fearsome reputation of the Tiger as a tank that it had significant downsides, and could be out fought with some warning.
>That isn't the same thing though; what you're pointing out is a situation where the troops were passing rumors among themselves about something without command taking control of the situation and giving them information to stop the spread of rumors.
There was nothing command could do. It wasn't a matter of giving the soldiers more information. The Americans didn't have a direct solution against the Tiger Tank for most of the war. American tankers feared them for that very reason. They had throw numbers at Tigers just to win. A ratio of around 10 to 12 American Sherman tanks destroyed just to kill 1 Tiger tank. American tankers did not want to face Tigers.
> There was nothing command could do. It wasn't a matter of giving the soldiers more information. The Americans didn't have a direct solution against the Tiger Tank for most of the war.
Which renders your point utterly moot since there was something ZAFT could do, as evidenced by Shinn almost destroying the Akatsuki in its debut battle but for the arrival of Kira and the Strike Freedom.
Then it's still a failure on command, not so much for failing to come with a counter as for failing to offer their men the illusion of reassurance regardless. Which is putting aside that given the numbers the Tiger was being produced in, the difficulty in maintaining them, their offensive power being offset by limitations on range etc, all of which was known within short order, that the US army did have information they could use to reassure men and create tactics against them. The Tiger was kind of actually kind of a paper...well, tiger.
Remember that ZAFT troops already have to deal with beam shields on EA units, and massive mobile armors being able to block both missiles and beams. So Akatsuki isn't really ground breaking in the defensive sense. EA already has more powerful units.
>EA already has more powerful units.
>powerful units
Kek, outside their debut episodes, their supposedly strong Mobile Armors get one-shotted by Zaft mooks because the plot commands it.
Eh...Shinn and the Minerva crew are the only ones able to do it easily. Those Destroy Gundams were destroying entire fleets before the Minerva showed up.
The Destroys are the mid-bosses that require effort. I'm talking about those ugly Gels-ghes and Zamza-zahs
Don’t Yzak and Dearka easily dispatch a few EA MA units after Requiem fires, and they’re piloting, what, GOUFs and ZAKUs?
ZAKU's but they're souped up commander units, added with their skills and experience, makes it more believable.
Need to correct myself that Yzak did pilot a GOUF Ignited. Still doesn't change my point.
I will also note: This happens all the damn time in Gundam.
>Bad guys deploy new MS
>Protagonist fights it.
>Bad guy deploys gimmick of new MS
>Gets upper hand on protagonist.
>Either a few minutes later or in the next battle after reviewing combat information, protagonist figures out how the gimmick works and strategizes around it.
It’s called working with limited data. It requires making some assumptions, the quality of which reflect the intelligence and judgment of the person making them, but a complete picture like they had the manual in front of them isn’t necessary at all.
Except we had some grunts trying to kill Akatsuki with non-beams. And they accomplished nothing. The grunts died in a split second. It made no impact on the battle at all.
If you want to fight Akatsuki, you need a mobile suit that can match it in performance, and an ace pilot. Zakus and Goufs won't do it. That leaves only Destiny and Legend Gundam. And to be frank, I don't think either Shinn or Ray are good enough to beat Mwu La Flaga piloting Akatsuki equipped with the funnel backpack.
>I don’t think the one guy who decisively beat Kira Yamato in combat can beat the rip-off Sleggar Law.
I thought you meant Athrun for a second but this applies to Shinn too.
>inb4 but Kira wasn't trying to kill him
He tore Athrun to shreds in the Savior without wanting to kill him, should've been able to handle Shinn too.
Kira pretty much forced Athrun into a position where he either fried him with Savior's cannons or let himself get chopped up. Athrun doesn't want to kill Kira, regardless of how annoyed he is at this meddling, so let himself get chopped up. Shinn wouldn't be nearly as easy in that position as he very much wanted to kill Kira.
>Athrun for a second
I don’t consider Aegis v. Strike a victory for him since they both survived with recoverable injuries and the Aegis was totalled beyond repair while the Strike was recovered and fixed.
I dare say he could hold his own against any of the druggies, as well as Yzak, Dearka, and likely trash Rey simply because the the Akatsuki hard-counters the Legend.
But against Kira, Athrun or Shinn? He’d need it to be a bad day for them and a good day for him to win.
He’s one of the better natural pilots, but not the best. That’s Rau, who I would say is second only to Kira honestly.
>decisively
Shinn cheated.
Oh yes, he cheated in a battle. Which obviously has rules of engagement both sides agree on before hand. Did they agree to use the same power source too? To have the same number of weapons?
Kira doesn't cheat after all; he just somehow always has the upper hand. Destiny, I guess. No, that was the other guy. Providence maybe? No, that wasn't him either. Justice perhaps? Nope. Damn, I'll get it eventually.
Cope.
We don't sign our posts here:
Mwu wasn't even a good pilot. His only feats in Strike are beating grunts and getting raped by Rau. In Akatsuki his only feats is once again beating grunts. In his Windam Shinn had improved so much that he didn't even want to fight Shinn 1v1.
Mwu at least was able to keep ahead of Shinn in the Windam. With Akatsuki he'd be invulnerable to beam fire and have dragoons, so Shinn would really struggle to get into melee range but it would mostly be because of Mwu having a major advantage than Mwu's own skill.
>With Akatsuki he'd be invulnerable to beam fire and have dragoons, so Shinn would really struggle to get into melee range
Except Shinn already knows not to waste time shooting at the Akatsuki and just run it down with his sword and boomerangs.
Which he would be able to do, easily, because the Destiny has WoL whereas the Shiranui Akatsuki’s flight system has no special features.
He has Dragoons which Shinn can't shoot down because they're also anti beam coated and if he tried to destroy them with melee he's leaving himself open to fire and the Dragoons can form a barrier that can block physical objects. It's not gonna be as easy as just flying straight up to him like Shinn could with Cagalli.
Except the DRAGOONs need to stop/slow down/stay in formation to deploy their shield. Doing so makes them vulnerable, they also can’t target the Destiny at the same time, and Mwu won’t be able to shoot at the Destiny through their shield either.
When you think about it, the ability isn’t actually that good for MS-to-MS combat. Maybe if you had a lot more than 7 DRAGOONs in total to fully entrap a machine with units left over to shoot at the machine from inside the enclosure, but that’s not the Akatsuki. It’s great for putting a shield around a battleship, which is why when we see footage of it in action, it’s doing exactly that.
Let’s not forget the GLARING elephant in the room: The Akatsuki is powered by a battery. It won’t be able to sustain DRAGOON combat for a prolonged period of time like the Providence, Legend and Strike Freedom. Nor can it recharge on the field like the Impulse.
>The Akatsuki is powered by a battery. It won’t be able to sustain DRAGOON combat for a prolonged period of time like the Providence, Legend and Strike Freedom. Nor can it recharge on the field like the Impulse.
Akatsuki doesn't have Phase Shift which was the main thing that hogs battery power, and it's anti beam is a coating that doesn't require energy. So it has power to spare for beams.
It’s still going to hog a lot of power. We can assume this is the case by looking at the Chaos gundam.
>VPSA is an improved and more efficient PSA
>Deuterion beam system allows it to be recharged in the middle of battle on the field.
>Only has 2 remote weapon pods, nowhere near as fancy as the Shiranui Akatsuki.
>>Only has 2 remote weapon pods, nowhere near as fancy as the Shiranui Akatsuki.
Akatsuki was meant to be an end all be all suit for Orb's princess in the event of an emergency. Chaos was a prototype for testing new technologies which in this case is transforming mech with Mobius style pods. Big difference.
The VPSA is more battery efficient. It's not stronger. It's like putting your phone on "battery saving mode". Lasts longer but is weaker.
If I remember right one of VSPA's other features was that it was variable, it could be set to weaker or stronger in effect by pilot preference or mobile suit type which would also effect power use
The Destiny Gundam also has a battery. And it Shinn almost ran out of power fighting Strike Freedom Gundam. And that was with Kira not even going full power.
Destiny Gundam has a nuclear reactor, weird scene of it running low on power aside. All 4 final Gundam's in Seed Destiny have the same power source
> It won’t be able to sustain DRAGOON combat for a prolonged period of time like the Providence
To add to this, per MG Providence manual, it was originally designed as a melee-oriented machine with 4 large sabers (one of which likely found its way into the shield of the final unit), and was only given the DRAGOON system after the development of N-Jammer Cancellers enabled nuclear-powered MS.
The Windam isn't even close to Impulse Gundam in performance. Therefore it's more impressive that Mwu was able to fight Shinn. Since Mwu had to make up the difference in unit performance with skill. Shinn has always relied heavily on his Gundams power. I have never seen him once do anything amazing in a grunt suit.
That's because we never see Shinn in anything outside of a Gundam unit suit.
> Beats a nuclear powered unit with superior performance stated to be the strongest unit around at the time using a battery powered one
> No, no, no, that doesn't count!
You are too smart for this argument. We both know Impulse never truly outperformed Freedom on paper.
Shinn simply replaced his damaged parts 3 different times. Then suicide rammed Impulse into Freedom (which would have caused a nuclear explosion killing Shinn, the Minerva, and everyone else). Kira saved everyone by shutting his reactor off before it went critical.
Shinn was willing to kill Lunamaria, Rey, Athrun, the rest of Minerva, and the rest ZAFT task force in a nuclear explosion.... All for a "chance" at mutually killing Kira too. Shinn wasn't an Ace pilot. He was a suic1de b0mber.
> Shinn simply replaced his damaged parts 3 different times.
Yes, he used HIS advantage. As opposed to Kira coming into the fight with a much more powerful suit. Shinn having an advantage doesn't negate that Lira had one too.
> Then suicide rammed Impulse into Freedom
Running a sword into your enemy isn't a "suicide ramming"; it's just using a sword. Nor is it likely that the Freedom's explosion would have taken out the Mineva or Archangel given how far away they are shown to be during the fight. No, what Kira was doing was saving his own skin, since he was in that explosion range.
>Running a sword into your enemy isn't a "suicide ramming"; it's just using a sword.
He knew Freedom was nuclear powered and it would cause a nuclear explosion if the reactor was stabbed which is exactly what Shinn did. What was Shinn's plan if Kira didn't use the emergency shut off? Kill himself along with Kira?
He also presumably knew that if you destroy a nuclear reactor powered suit that it doesn't explode in your face literally a picosecond later, because it never has in anything Gundam. Including any time a nuclear powered unit has been destroyed in CE. His plan? Fly away.
>He also presumably knew that if you destroy a nuclear reactor powered suit that it doesn't explode in your face
Except it did blow up in his face a few seconds later? Did you not watch the anime?
> a few seconds later
Did you read your own post? You can cover a lot of ground in a few seconds when you're in a flying suit of armor capable of going hundreds of miles an hour.
The explosion came from the Minerva's Lohengrin hitting the water. Did you not watch the anime?
Freedom blew up the moment Shin pierced the reactor core, and almost caused a nuclear detonation. Impulse was in a deadlock with Freedom with a beam saber shoved through its head, body and through the thruster back pack. Shinn wasn't going anywhere in that moment.
Try again.
Kira only shuts down the nuclear reactor while the torso of the Freedom is greyed out with it's phase shift deactivated as it's sinking into the ocean at the start of the next episode. Which is after whatever explosion hit Shinn. And which it doesn't immediately hit him anyway, because even discounting the two character's reaction faces entirely, we cut to the Mineva getting buffeted from the explosion of the Tannhauser hitting the Archangel before cutting back to the growing explosion of the Freedom. Which Shinn survives regardless.
>Kira only shuts down the nuclear reactor while the torso of the Freedom is greyed out with it's phase shift deactivated as it's sinking into the ocean
You don't know that for certain. All we see is Kira's unmoving body with his finger still on the button. For all we know, Kira hit the button immediately when Freedom was struck and his fainted body is still in the same position.
You're right; maybe Kira just kept his finger on the button for 10 seconds after hitting it despite looking like he's on the verge of passing out. For funsies.
Youve never heard of people passing out in the same position? People generally stop moving when they faint.
People also generally lose control over their muscles, and flop into a state dictated by gravity rather than autonomous control. Which you no longer have if you're passed out. If you pass out in the same position then it's because you're lying down or something, and gravity cannot move you any further.
Except he’s also strapped into a chair, likely one that arrests movement upon sudden impact like a car seatbelt, limiting his movement severely.
Are you just being intentionally dense? His arm isn't propped up to the button by those straps.
No, but if his torso is strapped in, the chances that his arm will move are greatly reduced since his shoulder joint location would be fixed.
A pilot's harness does not fix his shoulder joint in place. If it did then the pilot's arm movement would be heavily restricted and he wouldn't be capable of leaning forward at all. Which is just idiotic. Never mind that fixing the shoulder in place does not fix the bicep, elbow, forearm, hand AND finger in place.
I should rephrase that. It means his shoulder cannot move, but any movement of his arm must involve rotation of the shoulder joint from a mostly fixed set of coordinates within the wienerpit.
So, Freedom exploded and because Kira was strapped in his body did not move much, even after fainting. Why is this so hard for you to grasp? Because you must baselessly reach for ad hoc explanations rather than accept the truth?
That is not how harnesses, fainting or gravity work. If his shoulder is fixed in place in ANY fashion, whatsoever, then his elbow, forearm, hand and finger can still move and/or be moved by gravity. Please stop trying to defend this using "magic harnesses".
Okay, then why was he bracing it on the button for several seconds after pressing it as his unit falls into the ocean as he looks on he leans back in defeat/exhaustion?
>Okay, then why was he bracing it on the button for several seconds after pressing it as his unit falls into the ocean as he looks on he leans back in defeat/exhaustion?
Re-read my comment. The arm has enough support to be able to stay in place.
No, he doesn't. The wienerpit console isn't going to hold the finger in place by anything shown in that scene. His hand should slip right off that if he's passed out.
Actually, looking at the picture again; even if there was some kind of brace holding his arm in place (there isn't, but let's say there is for the sake of argument) then his fingers should still go limp on the console and not be raised to put pressure on the button.
Except fingers as light and don’t usually move in these situations unless they impact something which forces them to either flex or snap. Moreover, the rest position for finger muscles is a partially open palm similar to what is shown, not a clenched fist or fully spread out palm.
Kira's fingers are raised to put pressure on the button. Only one finger is pushed to the button, but the rest are all curled up into similar positions to support the pressure. All of which would be limp if he was unconscious. His hand also wouldn't stay upright, but would slip off the console entirely, because the console is in an upright position in front of him and he's had to bring his hand to it.
Yeah, he pushed the two buttons with his index and middle finger, then the middle finger curled up. Tell me, of these two fingers, which is easier to individually straighten to point at someone or flip them off? The index finger.
And again, there’s no reason for his arm to slip off the console because it’s resting on it and static friction can keep is there even if he’s limp.
It kinda looks like the emergency shut off switch has some raised sections that Kira's fingers are able to rest in between.
Different anon here. We also don't know when Kira actually fainted. For all we know he could have slammed down on the button, and forcibly held his arm in place even as he fell beneath the water. Then Kira only fainted after he was sure the reactor was cut. At which point, Kira's arm and hands had enough support to be able to stay in place.
Kira's arm was braced and resting on Freedom's wienerpit control console. Kira isn't literally holding his arm up while fainted.
The wienerpit is also gyroscopically stabilized. It rotates to constantly keep the pilot upright.
Kira is buckled down to a flight seat, strapped down with a 6 point harness, and is wearing a g-suit.
Your attempt has failed. Try again.
>Freedom blew up the moment Shin pierced the reactor core
Except we're given this image for a few seconds. Part of the Freedom exploded, but it clearly wasn't enough to destroy the entire mobile suit, much less the one next to it.
>You're right; maybe Kira just kept his finger on the button for 10 seconds after hitting it
He's also knocked out cold in the wienerpit with his finger on that button when we see him. The better inference is he made a knee-jerk move to turn off the NJC, probably held his finger on the button out of shock that he needed to do it anyway, then the Freedom's lower body exploded and knocked him out.
Shinn and Rey prepared for the battle against the Freedom a head of time and figured out a little something called a "strategy".
They didn't do the same against the SF and IJ, because Fukuda felt it was more important to focus on Meer's backstory and Lacus crying over it just to cement how much he doesn't care anymore for the new cast.
Angel Down isn't a fluke, but keep coping.
>They didn't do the same against the SF and IJ,
Or they did and it didn't matter because they were outclassed by Kira and Athrun.
Kira is 0-1 vs Shinn
And Athrun is 2-1 over Shinn.
Athrun neg diff Shitt asuka it isn't even a fight lmao
>Kira is 0-1 vs Shinn
Huh?
Kira and Shin fought 6 times.
1st Battle - Kira overwhelms Impulse and easily slices off its arm and disables it. Shinn is stunned and awestruck. Kira wins.
2nd Battle - Shinn tries to kill Cagalli. Fails. Freedom intercepts Impulse's missiles. Then Kira tries to disable Impulse using the same move from their first fight but dodges. - Draw
3rd Battle - Operation Angel Down. Shinn wins.
4th Battle - Battle of Orb Round 1. Strike Freedom easily man-handles Destiny Gundam. Kira spares Shinn and doesn't kill him. Shinn gets enraged. But runs low on power and retreats. Kira wins.
5th Battle - Battle of Orb Round 2. Shinn brings Rey (in Legend Gundam) because he can't beat Strike Freedom alone. They try to 2v1 Strike Freedom but fail. Athrun joins and it becomes a fair 2v2 battle. Shinn loses. Rey losses.
- Kira and Athrun win.
6th Battle - Battle of Neo Genesis. Round 1. Destiny Gundam tries to chase and attack Strike Freedom. But Strike Freedom is even faster in space combat. Kira deploys wings of light and dragoons. Shinn can't even land a hit and gets smacked around by Dragoons. Kira literally uses Freedom's boot to step on Destiny Gundam's head and kicks him. Shinn runs away and challenges Athrun instead. Kira wins this round.
Kira's record against Shinn is:
4 wins. 1 loss. 1 Draw.
4-1-1
>Shinn gets enraged. But runs low on power and retreats. Kira wins.
Kira was the one running away from Shinn in this battle. Draw.
>They try to 2v1 Strike Freedom but fail. Athrun joins and it becomes a fair 2v2 battle. Shinn loses. Rey losses.
You can't count this as a loss for Shinn and Rey when Kira was about to die until Athrun arrived. Shinn was one button press away from killing Kira until Athrun's voice shocked him.
> Shinn runs away and challenges Athrun instead. Kira wins this round.
Shinn doesn't run away. Athrun does and Rey tells Shinn to chase after him.
> Shinn was one button press away from killing Kira until Athrun's voice shocked him.
As if Kira’s SF wouldn’t warn him the someone has a target locked on him even Athrun knows it and what’s stopping Kira from just using his thrusters at any angle to dodge the shot?
It’s only shown at shitt Asuka’s perspective to show his reaction at Athruns’s arival on the battlefield
>As if Kira’s SF wouldn’t warn him the someone has a target locked on him even Athrun knows it and what’s stopping Kira from just using his thrusters at any angle to dodge the shot?
Because he was knocked off balance and spiraling through the air.
Shinn was chasing Kira with his beam rifle before he was recalled.
>Shinn was chasing Kira with his beam rifle before he was recalled.
He's not gonna beat Kira with a beam rifle. That fight was over, Kira was just winding him down at that point. He'd never beat him without melee weapons and all of them had been destroyed. Even with Impulse vs Freedom he needed to go melee to win.
shitt asuka can’t win any fight without unlimited MS spare parts during a fight
He’s the worst pilot out of the three and Kira wouldn’t get easily disarm by Athrun when both at Seed mode unlike Shitt Asuka lmao
holy copoli
>Kira was the one running away from Shinn in this battle. Draw.
Bro what. Kira literally disarmed Destiny of its huge anti ship sword and tossed it in the ocean. Destiny couldn't even continue fighting since it was low on power. Shinn ran away to recharge the Destiny
>Shinn was one button press away from killing Kira
Kira's had incredible split second reactions to fire before so if it went like any other situation he'd almost certainly dodge or block it. Kira had already righted himself by the time Shinn was locked on and while his back was turned, Kira was able to dodge a shot from behind at much closer range with a damaged wing back in Angel Down, and was able to dodge Neo shooting at him almost point blank in Berlin so it's unlikely this is the one time he'd be too slow to react.
>They didn't do the same against the SF and IJ, because Fukuda felt it was more important to focus on Meer's backstory and Lacus crying over it just to cement how much he doesn't care anymore for the new cast.
They didn't prep for SF and IJ because they didn't have two wars worth of data on them.
They don’t need two years worth of data to make a strategy. They’re reasonable similar to the older models and most changes can be observed by visible inspection. The pilots, also, are the same people as before.
It’s quicker, and faster, that’s the point. Need to quickly shut it off? Extend the index and middle finger like you want to gouge someone’s eyes out and gouge the buttons. A sequential execution of one then the other will necessarily take longer.
The raised surfaces around the buttons should help shield them from something falling on them from the side. You might also assume the entire console is covered and not exposed all the time, lil the number pad Athrun used in the Aegis to input its self-destruct code. That’s another layer of security, but because the purpose of this kill switch is to PREVENT the machine from completely blowing up in a nuclear explosion, it needs to be quicker to activate than a self-destruct (hence no code) while also protected from being accidentally triggered. A hidden console with 2 fingers simultaneously is the best way to do this.
Yes, gravity will act to pull his arm back and down at the same time. His shoulder location being fixed and his arm already being extended will prevent the arm from falling back. Instead it would need to rotate to the side to fall off probably. Friction would act against this and you’ve shown no evidence that it would not be enough, just baseless assertions. We don’t know the coefficients of friction between his suit and the console and likely the writers/animators didn’t either. But because his arm is still there, we can assume it’s enough to hold him still.
> It's quicker, and faster
Ah yes, speed and simplicity; two things you definitely want to keep in mind for your safety procedure. The best method is to make it so simple and quick you can do it by accident when you lean over, and even basic measures to make it a little more complex are just too much. Even for genetic supermen. If you're hiding the console, then pressing buttons to reveal it will already be long enough that a half a second more for safety won't actually matter. Nor will raising surfaces around the button do anything, since it's already hidden most of the time.
> His shoulder location being fixed and his arm already being extended will prevent the arm from falling back.
No, it will prevent his shoulder from falling back; not his arm.
> because his arm is still there, we can assume it’s enough to hold him still.
Only if we already assume he's unconscious and his arm has been in position for several seconds. Which is circular logic. You're assuming he's unconscious because his arm is still, and that his arm is still because he's unconscious; without ever actually proving either independently.
> Ah yes, speed and simplicity; two things you definitely want to keep in mind for your safety procedure.
When the safety feature must be activated in a pinch, this is absolutely the case.
As are multiple layers of security. Does the console open accidentally? Raised surfaces lower the chances of buttons being accidentally pressed. Oh, it got pressed anyway? Well, there’s 2 buttons. All of these reduce the chance of accidentally trigger the kill switch, but once you actually need to use it, it’s dead simple and quick for a human:
>1. Reveal console, likely with some other button or switch.
>2. Stab 2 buttons with extended index and middle fingers
There. No nuclear explosion. Less risk of losing power when you need it, too.
> No, it will prevent his shoulder from falling back; not his arm
Christ you are dense. For his arm to fall, either his shoulder joint rotates or his elbow bends. Both would involve a rotation sideways, not in the direction gravity is directly pulling, making it less likely.
>Only if we already assume he's unconscious and his arm has been in position for several seconds.
His wienerpit was flooding with water and the next scene we see him he wakes up in the Archangel’s sick bay. Yes, he was unconscious. Yes, pressing that kill switch was the last thing he did before losing consciousness. I don’t need to prove it. This is patently evident by watching the fricking the scene.
> As are multiple layers of security.
Only when it's exactly as many layers as you personally want. If you add just one more layer of complexity then it all falls apart; no matter how minute. How can we expect genetic supermen to press two buttons in a row during a crisis? Obviously you must make it simultaneous or they'll get confused and shit themselves in terror before they can do anything if you implement such a system.
> Christ you are dense.
My sentiments exactly. If you arm is extended away from gravity's pull and you lose consciousness then it will fall towards where gravity dictates. In this case, back and down. If his shoulder is restrained by the chair and his elbow is extended, then his elbow will fall and drag his hand down with it. No rotation to the side required; just down. I'm not sure why you're fixated on sideways movement, but it isn't' actually required for his arm or hand to fall.
> Yes, he was unconscious.
All you proved is that he fell unconscious at some point after his defeat and before he woke up in the Archangel; not that he had been unconscious for several seconds by the time we see his finger on the button.
> How can we expect genetic supermen to press two buttons in a row during a crisis?
We can, but it is necessarily slower than pressing them at the same time for no discernible benefit.
> No rotation to the side required; just down.
For his arm to fall, his hand will need to rotate horizontally to the side to fall off the console. That’s where friction comes in, because that movement is more perpendicular to gravity at first and this weak.
>not that he had been unconscious for several seconds by the time we see his finger on the button.
Water was already flooding the wienerpit and he was continuing to sink deeper and deeper by the time we see him, sitting there, eyes closed, his hands on the kill switch. If he was awake by the time water starting flooding in you’d expect him to react to that.
> We can, but it is necessarily slower than pressing them at the same time for no discernible benefit.
No, there is a benefit; safety, because it's harder to accidentally press two buttons in a row than to press two simultaneously. It's just that you're dismissing it as being too much safety.
> For his arm to fall, his hand will need to rotate horizontally to the side to fall off the console.
No, it just needs to slide vertically i.e. down. It would only need to slide horizontally if there was something preventing the forearm from moving vertically, but not the hand.
> If he was awake by the time water starting flooding in you’d expect him to react to that.
Only if he has excess energy beyond that needed to press the switch necessary to ensure his own survival as long as possible. The more likely explanation as far as I can see is that pressing it was his last action before passing out, which is what's happening as we cut to that shot. As in, he's passing out as we cut to that shot, just as his fingers press the button. Not that he's been passed out for several seconds, and his hand is just sitting there with no support despite gravity.
> No, there is a benefit; safety, because it's harder to accidentally press two buttons in a row than to press two simultaneously
Not when the two buttons are separated with raised surfaces on either side so you cannot press them both with one finger, for instance.
> something preventing the forearm from moving vertically, but not the hand
Like an armrest of his wrist sitting on the console held there by simple friction, too.
>Only if he has excess energy beyond that needed to press the switch necessary to ensure his own survival as long as possible.
No, it would be pretty reflexive, like if you’re driving a car alone and hear air rushing in a window suddenly despite not opening one, or if a window cracks. At the very least his head would turn.
>Not that he's been passed out for several seconds, and his hand is just sitting there with no support despite gravity
Again, friction of the flight suit and console.
> Not when the two buttons are separated with raised surfaces on either side so you cannot press them both with one finger, for instance.
No, it's less likely but not actually impossible; particularly if something with some give as well as weight presses on them. Like any part of a human body.
> Like an armrest of his wrist sitting on the console held there by simple friction, too.
His wrist isn't sitting on an armrest though, and is visibly raised up to the console.
> it would be pretty reflexive
Reflexive won't matter if you have literally just fallen into unconsciousness.
> Again, friction of the flight suit and console.
Friction does not negate gravity for anything as weighty as parts of a human body unless you're talking about what is essentially a flat plane. Which we're not.
>Like any part of a human body.
Like some parts. Your hand and feat have a lot of bones, as does your face. Maybe if you say your ass on the console it would press both at once, but I wouldn’t design around that possibility.
>Reflexive won't matter if you have literally just fallen into unconsciousness
The water did not start flooding in just as we see inside the wienerpit. The implication is clear: Kira fell asleep with his hand on the button, then water started flooding in.
>Friction does not negate gravity
Friction is a function of mass which is a function of gravity. Moreover, the coefficient of friction differs depending on the materials in contact. His suit is not covered in sweat or any kind of liquid like his arms would be after such a fight, so you’d expect the friction between his suit and the console to be stronger than if he was using a bare or sweaty arm (which all of your stupid analogies seem to relay on).
>unless you're talking about what is essentially a flat
Wheels are not flat, and roads can be uneven, yet friction is the mechanism by which car wheels turn rather than just spinning out. Your argument fails upon simple inspection.
> Maybe if you say your ass on the console it would press both at once
Your limbs or torso have enough flesh to do so too, and probably even the palms of your hands.
> The water did not start flooding in just as we see inside the wienerpit.
Sure, so if he was awake when it started flooding then he prioritized pressing the button for his safety above reacting to the water.
> Friction is a function of mass which is a function of gravity.
Which is not the same as saying it negates it. Unless his suit is made of something super tacky/sticky then it's not going to stop his hand from sliding off what is presented as being an almost vertical plane.
> Wheels are not flat, and roads can be uneven, yet friction is the mechanism by which car wheels turn rather than just spinning out.
If you leave a wheel idle with no force acting upon it then friction won't prevent it from reacting to gravity. The force provided by an engine might, but that's kind of a different argument.
>probably even the palms of your hands
Probably not, look how thick the bars on either side or the buttons are
>prioritized pressing the button for his safety above reacting to the water.
He prioritized his safety by preventing the nuclear reactor from going off and then would die by the water breaking his space helmet once he’s deep enough and drowning him
/facepalm
>an almost vertical plane.
No, the machine may not be upright but the console isn’t sitting at 90 degrees, and there’s another set of buttons beneath it that his wrist is sitting on, which is definitely not more than 60 degrees and if his arm is not on a rest, then it’s supporting the weight of his arm. So no, totally plausible.
>force provided by an engine might
Friction determines if the wheel will move the vehicle or just spin out when you apply that engine torque. When you have flat planes (e.g., ice) and tires (worn treads) you have almost no friction so it just spins out. This is why your assertion was crap.
> Probably not, look how thick the bars on either side or the buttons are
No, he doesn't. The wienerpit console isn't going to hold the finger in place by anything shown in that scene. His hand should slip right off that if he's passed out. #
They don't look much, if any taller than the buttons they're guarding. Which means you could depress them if you hit them accidentally.
> He prioritized his safety by preventing the nuclear reactor from going off and then would die by the water breaking his space helmet once he’s deep enough and drowning him
Yes? He prioritized the immediate threat i.e. nuclear explosion, hoping anything else would be dealt with by his allies. Which you kind of have to do if you're fading in the face of multiple threats.
> No, the machine may not be upright but the console isn’t sitting at 90 degrees, and there’s another set of buttons beneath it that his wrist is sitting on, which is definitely not more than 60 degrees and if his arm is not on a rest, then it’s supporting the weight of his arm. So no, totally plausible.
None of which we see in the actual shot. Nor do we know the location of the console on the controls. We can see his upper arm is reaching forward, and that his forearm seems to be reaching "in", but that's it. His wrist being on another row of buttons, the angle etc. is all assumption.
> Friction determines if the wheel will move the vehicle or just spin out when you apply that engine torque. When you have flat planes (e.g., ice) and tires (worn treads) you have almost no friction so it just spins out. This is why your assertion was crap.
Said friction will only be at play when the wheel is moving at speed. Otherwise the vehicle will just roll back if it's not a flat plane. Kira's arm is resting there, so there is no major force changing anything about it's behavior beyond gravity. So unless you're suggesting his suit is made of super glue or something, there's no reason it wouldn't slide under gravity.
>They don't look much, if any taller than the buttons they're guarding. Which means you could depress them if you hit them accidentally.
Okay butterfingers. Don’t know about you but looking at that if I slammed my hand on the console all Id get is pain and 4 bruises.
>hoping anything else would be dealt with by his allies
Who already got their ass shot my the Minerva. Again, all of this is ad hoc by you and violates Occam’s razor excessively. That is, the simplest explanation for that scene is he hit the button, fainted with his hand on it, then water began pouring in.
>His wrist being on another row of buttons, the angle etc. is all assumption
See picrel. From the angle of his hand, his wrist is clearly sitting on the controls beneath the kill switch in a relaxed state, or did you forget the point you yourself brought up about the body going limp?
>Kira's arm is resting there, so there is no major force changing anything about it's behavior beyond gravity.
Except the force of friction acting on his wrist and hands, as I’ve said, multiple times, and that the angle of the console his wrist is on isn’t very severe for gravity to just pull his hand down.
> Okay butterfingers. Don’t know about you but looking at that if I slammed my hand on the console all Id get is pain and 4 bruises.
You probably would get bruises if you slammed it, yes. You'd probably still depress them though because most people have some extraneous flesh on their palms.
> Who already got their ass shot my the Minerva. Again, all of this is ad hoc by you and violates Occam’s razor excessively. That is, the simplest explanation for that scene is he hit the button, fainted with his hand on it, then water began pouring in.
When you're in trouble you don't exactly have the luxury to pick and choose your allies and options. Occam's razor would say his hand slide off the controls, and that if it's still on them then he only just pressed it. Rather than that it's just resting there for several seconds.
> See picrel. From the angle of his hand, his wrist is clearly sitting on the controls beneath the kill switch in a relaxed state, or did you forget the point you yourself brought up about the body going limp?
There are no controls beneath his wrist, just the bevels of the console. Which his hand is not "sitting" on, it's resting against it. The difference being that one implies it's a horizontal surface his hand is on, the other vertical. And that surface is very clearly at a vertical angles to his hand and wrist. It's not 90 degrees, but it's probably still 70 degrees to his hand.
> the angle of the console his wrist is on isn’t very severe for gravity to just pull his hand down.
Yes it is, and I genuinely don't know how you can possibly say otherwise after looking at that frame.
> You'd probably still depress them though
It’s a good 1cm to get past the bars surrounding them and depressing the button is probably another 1cm at least, so no.
>Occam's razor would say
Don’t use words you don’t comprehend just because the other guy used them. Occam’s Razor doesn’t care for your extraneous assumption about why an unconscious man’s arm would stay in the position it was in when he fainted.
>Which his hand is not "sitting" on
Wrist, not hand. Nice straw man, and yes, there’s something in front of the kill switch that his wrist is sitting on, and probably holding up his arm if it’s not sitting on an armrest.
>I genuinely don't know how you can possibly say otherwise after looking at that frame.
And I generally don’t know why you have an issue with Kira pressing the kill switch either just before getting impaled by Shinn, or a second after, keeping it there as the Freedom’s lower body exploded (again, enough to take out the legs and waist, but nothing else) out of the shock and horror that he’d need to do that in the first place (evident on his face at the end of Angel Down) and then faint in place sometime between then and the water breaching the wienerpit.
>No nuclear explosion.
I wonder if we'll ever get to the point where people understand that nuclear power systems don't work like that.
In reality nuclear reactors don’t blow up like nuclear bombs and they go critical, but it all depends on whose writing the script and what they know. Fukuda let that cat out of the bag when he had Athrun blow up the Justice’s reactor to stop GENESIS, and similar things happen in the UC.
I'm aware it's consistent with Fukuda's previous idiocy (and that of a number of others). I'd just like it to stop one day.
Stop watching science fiction then. That’s all I’d have to say.
That seems like a pretty drastic reaction to a mild annoyance.
No, it’s because science fiction has always played fast and loose with the actual science. Just look at how people b***h about Star Trek technobabble.
I once read a ostensibly serious article that claimed nuclear power plants function by setting off contained nuclear explosions. Presumably in some kind of giant reinforced version of an internal combustion engine. That time is a long way off.
There's a theoretical deep space nuclear propulsion system like that, but lol sure as hell not in today's world.
>His plan? Fly away.
Oh yeah because Shinn can totally reverse his massive forward momentum in a split second. Let's completely forget that Shinn rammed Impulse at full speed into Freedom's beam sword and then had Impulse impaled, and damaged Impulse's force thruster backpack. Yeah... Shinn can can totally reverse easily course like he's casually pulling out of a parking spot. No problem.
> split second
The entire point is that it takes several seconds for the reactor to explode. During which he does have enough time to let go of the sword and fly quite far away, given he's in a flying machine capable of moving at hundreds of miles per hour.
>During which he does have enough time to let go of the sword and fly quite far away,
Not when he has a beam saber rammed through his suit. Shinn isn't going anywhere quickly.
Let’s not forget that in the final of SEED, the Providence, a nuclear powered Gundam, got hit point blank by the final shot of GENESIS and exploded. Did it’s explosion also blow up the Freedom, which was impaling the Providence in a way similar to how it would be impaled by the Impulse (damaged, headless) until Kira gets out of dodge to avoid the GENESIS beam at the last possible second? No, in fact that scene places much more emphasis on the Freedom getting caught in the failed beam and having its armor sizzled.
Funny how Kiragays, in their pitiful efforts to discredit Angel Down will conveniently forget things like this.
Freedom's Gundams phase shift is much stronger because it's powered by a nuclear reactor. Variable Phase Shift (VPS) used on Impulse and the 2nd Stage series suits are much weaker.
Citation fricking needed. The reactor means it won’t guzzle energy and run out of power, but pretty much the only improvement made to PSA during SEED was the introduction of Trans-Phase armor by the EA for the Druggie machines. Isn’t until Destiny that we get VPSA which the Impulse has.
I’m not relying on a “magic harness” defence. This is now motion arrest systems are meant to work: restrain the center of the body, and you greatly reduce the possibility of the extremities moving about because the torso cannot move wildly and drag them along with it. This is literally what happened
>Kira kills the NJC
>Freedom explodes. Intensity of the explosion is minor because the upper body is mostly in tact, we don’t even know the size of the explosion or the trajectory or spin it might’ve put on the remnants.
>But the explosion is enough to knock Kira out cold.
>Next we see if the Freedom is the upper body sinking in the water, in an upright position similar to how it was when the Impulse impaled it.
>Kira’s hand is still on the button, even though he’s knocked out.
The explosion could’ve sent his arm flopping around his shoulder joint, but it simply did not, and there’s no rule saying it should’ve done so except for your pathetic ad hoc reasoning to try and discredit the battle’s conclusion.
>I’m not relying on a “magic harness” defence
You absolutely are. Your shoulder muscles might be linked to those in your arm, but they are not literally one muscle. If you fix the shoulder in place, then the muscles along the rest of the arm can still move independently, because they ARE independent of it. If you fix the shoulder in place then the finger of the attached arm can still move in any way it normally could. It's not restrained in any way, shape or form. The shoulder might be, but the finger is not. And even if you fixed the finger so it couldn't move, that is not the same as saying it cannot be moved by an external force i.e. gravity. Once someone faints, their body goes limp as they lose any control of their muscles. Which will all go to the lowest possible point of energy i.e. fall. If Kira is passed out, then his arm would fall off that button because nothing is holding it there. And a harness on his shoulder will not lock the finger into place. Arguing it will is saying the harness is magic.
>You absolutely are.
No, I am not. You do not understand physics.
When the Freedom is impaled, it is upright.
When the Freedom is sinking, it is also upright.
Very little change in the vector of the gravitational force being applied to Kira. Gravity wants to pull him down before and after, that includes his hand resting on the console. If the Freedom was sinking head first, you’d expect to see his arms dangling above his head while his body is restrained.
>But what about the force of the explosion?
Newton’s third law: Equal and opposite reactions. The force of the explosion gets to Kira through his points of contact with the wienerpit, the biggest one being the seat he’s in which has straps to restrain him IN SUCH a situation. The harness thus nullifies most of the force being transferred from the frame to his arm, and the forces of friction (static and dynamic) coupled with gravity ensure that his arm either doesn’t move a lot or at all. There being an explosion doesn’t magically compel his fingers to shift into a different pose.
Moreover, there’s nothing to say the explosion immediately knocked him out, but that he tried to hold still for the brunt of it and fainted when hitting the water, for instance. Fukuda doesn’t care to provide the details. All were given is that it exploded, sank upright, and Kira’s hand remained next to the button, which is wholly plausible.
> You do not understand physics.
This, from someone who doesn't understand that if you remove someone's conscious control of their muscles they go limp and their body falls to a state of low energy? If the Freedom is upright then that means gravity would be dragging things down. Including his hand. Which hasn't moved. The explosion has no bearing on that equation at all, good, bad or indifferent. He's either just after pressing the button as we see him, or he's wearing a magic harness that can negate the effects of gravity. Take your pick.
> This, from someone who doesn't understand that if you remove someone's conscious control of their muscles they go limp and their body falls to a state of low energy
No, I understand this completely. It’s just there’s no compelling force to move his hand. Gravity wants to pull his hand down which it already would be, so it’s satisfied. Friction wants to keep stationary objects where they are, so even if he’s limp, that doesn’t mean the force of static friction can’t still hold his arm in that position. It’s not like the skin of the suit is covered in sweat or oil to loosen friction’s hold, and the water hadn’t risen to the level where it would lubricate the arm to make it easier to move. His hand and fingers are in a relatively relaxed position so there’s no problem there.
So again, you don’t understand how physics work.
His fingers are raised in
in a way that is only possible with conscious control. You would not hold that position if you went unconscious. Never mind that the console is upright in front of him, so his hand would just slide of the console; not rest on it. Static friction isn't going to hold it in place, and if you think otherwise then I encourage you to place your finger on any upright surface you care to name, wearing anything you want, and then go limp and see how long your arm stays there without external support.
The only possible way that his finger would rest on them without slipping at all is if the arm is supported by the chair and the console he's pressing is directly beneath resting position of his arm in the wienerpit. Which is a really, really, incredibly stupid place to put a "reactor shutoff" button that doesn't even appear to have any safety cap on it. It isn't though, because his hand is clearly raised up to press the button in
. Which means he's raised his arm to press it, and thus gravity can act on it if he's unconscious for any length of time.
Oh, so now despite not seeing him press the two buttons simultaneously we can assume he did? Also, when the lighting on the two is different; implying they're in a different state. Rather than that he pressed one button and then the other? When again, his finger is only resting on one in the still we see. Also, where are we shown his arm is resting on the console to press that button? The one still frame we get of his body a few seconds later makes it look like he's moved his arm over to press a button because the upper arm is moved forward from it's default position, and there's creasing along the inside and outside of the elbow of his pilot suit. Which indicates that his forearm has moved.
Also, the Freedom isn't directly upright while sinking; it's leaning back. Which means that his body would slide backwards as well as down, if he went limp.
>Oh, so now despite not seeing him press the two buttons simultaneously we can assume he did.
We can safely assume he’d need to do so in order for the shut off to actually work. This would be a mechanism in place to prevent accidental shut off of the NJC.
No, Freedom isn’t perfectly upright but it is still angled that way, akin to a man in a car going up a hill instead of on flat land, so the change is minimal.
Why can we assume that? Cause it helps you? Why are the two buttons lit differently then? As if one was pressed before the other. It's just as safe to need to press them in order (or just separately) as to need to press both simultaneously. ALso, no, the Freedom isn't "angled" upright; it's tilted back. If you passed out in a car on a hill then gravity would still act on you. It doesn't just ignore that vector if the hill is slight.
We can safely assume it because it controls the power supply to the entire machine and by having two buttons spaced apart for the index and middle fingers ensures that if the power is cut, it’s because the pilot -meant- to cut it and less likely that it was pressed by accident, which would be really bad if it happened in the middle of a fight. Needing to press both buttons simultaneously rather than in sequence is less likely to happen by accident, and quicker to remember and execute in a pinch.
It’s a safety mechanism, one whose purpose is obvious given the image. Not sure why you’re quibbling over this of all things.
Tilted back is still mostly upright and friction will still want to keep things where they are. Again, it’s not on its side or upside down. You’d have a point if that was the case. Since it isn’t, you do not.
Two buttons needing to be pressed separately or in sequence also ensures that it's not just pressed by accident. Nor is it more likely to happen by accident than pressing both simultaneously. If anything, it's less likely, because someone could blunder and lean on both buttons at once if they have no safety cap. Or something could fall on the console. There are multiple switches that have to be activated simultaneously on nuclear controls for missiles silos in movies, but they are spaced out and the two person thing is to prevent one person from having control of it; not to ensure accidental discharge. The fact it has keys alone already does that. You're basically just saying things to make your assumption be the default, when nothing supports it.
Also, "mostly upright" is not upright. If you are mostly upright and go unconscious then gravity will still act on you and not give you a free pass because it failed to notice the angle. Friction is not enough to counter that, and again, you are welcome to prove to yourself otherwise by raising your hand to any surface you want and going limp. Your arm will still fall down until it hits a surface.
>Citation fricking needed
The anime
I can’t watch webm’s at the moment? Is that the scene where he nails the Abyss with the rail guns? Not a good argument, the entire point of VPSA is that it’s power consumption and strength can be adjusted on the fly. You cannot assume the Abyss’ armor strength is the same as the Force Impulse’s, in fact it’s probably a lot less because the Abyss has to power a large arsenal of weapons, most of them beam based and Auel is a wienery bastard.
VPSA being variable doesn’t mean it’s top strength (which the Force Impulse would use for its purpose) is less than that of regular PSA, or that having a reactor power the armor increases its maximum strength. That’s a disingenuous and fallacious argument.
We are told specifically in the databooks and technical manuals that Phase shift armor's strength is determined by the output of power source. Batteries are limited. This is also confirmed by the anime when we when Genesis have phase shift armor and can block direct Lohengrin attacks. Confirmed again when we Destroy Gundam shrug off direct beam hits to the armor. And again confirmed by Strike Freedom's tech manual and the anime.
I’ve never seen PSA listed as a feature for the Destroys on any source.
A positron beam from the Kusanagi’s Lohengrin is not the same as a beam from a rifle, cannon, or saber. This is why Mwu blocking it is so egregious.
>I’ve never seen PSA listed as a feature for the Destroys on any source.
In the anime, it gets shot in the legs by beam rifles, and we see the same shimmering "phase shift" effect happen when phase shift blocks beams. Like we see when Genesis block the lohengrin blast. The Destroy Gundam's legs blocked the beam with no damage and it continued fighting.
Okay. I'll give you that. Vps is weaker.
When the dust settled the Impulse was still floating in the air. Damaged, it’s silhouette akin to the headless horseman, but functional and able to return to the Minerva for repairs.
All, what, three of them? Four? When you'd be having briefings about the new tech being fielded by the enemy army anyway? Really doesn't seem difficult.
You're forgetting the Dom Troopers, Waltfled's Gaia, the whole of Terminal really. ZAFT's been compromised as frick.
ZAFT are just big dumb villains.
That fits the EA more.
They're both the same.
No, EA absolutely has no redeemable personnel whereas ZAFT at least tries to be moral.
>whereas ZAFT at least tries to be moral.
lol.
Yes, shitposter, tries. I don't care for ZAFT, but give credit where it's due even if they're still incompetent mooks.
Or ZAFT high command just classified the "Golden enemy mobile suit" as top secret. The United States Military does it all the time. Soldiers are ordered not to discuss what they saw under severe penalties. And any information about the enemy unit is not spread.
but why is it gold wouldnt that be detrimental to its battle specs
You gotta wonder if he's mentally ill. He's been doing this for a long time.
>if he's mentally ill
There's no "if" at this point. Fool has to be well into his 30s and still acts like this.
I still don't fricking understand why a setting that was supposed to be put into an energy crisis over losing nuclear fission, also had the tech to create a sustained beam of positrons. If they applied that same tech at smaller, more reasonable controlled scale, they could harness photon reactions that would completely put nuclear fission to shame. Even if this shit was too large scale to power mobile suits, it would still put an end to the energy crisis for the bulk of the earth population.
this is literally the setting where as soon as they discovered the secret tech to enable nuclear reactions again, they agreed to arm themselves with hundreds of tactical nukes (each requiring its own anti-nuke jammer) and go on a fricking rampage instead of restarting their nuclear plants and restoring the power grid
I love CE with its tendency of putting /misc/ madmen into power.
CE is a timeline of genocidal maniacs on all sides. It's arguable one of the darker Gundam timelines because both the EA and ZAFT both want to wipe each other out. The Neuron Jammers started as a way to prevent ZAFT from being nuked. Once Fray delivered th Canceller blueprints, one guy was all
>Hey we can fix our energy crisis now!
but Rau La Creuset correctly predicted Azrael would be all
>lol no let's nuke them
It's like people assume Durandal has daily Plant wide briefings on the latest with Team Lacus and how best to destroy them.
> Sekrit club
It's been a few years, but it's just as hilarious every time.
dunno if this is the right thread to ask but can someone run me down on the CE mobile suits being controlled by brain waves? that's something I heard a long time ago, supposedly naturals can't pilot suits at first in SEED because the computer would just fry their brain, but in the anime there is no machinery shown to connect to one's brain, just regular MS controls. there's a bit of dialogue I remember that referenced brain stems in MS, is it one of the things that were ignored by the show's writers or did I misread/misremember?
"Neuro-link" is part of the acronym of the OS, but aside from that I don't think there's any info about it at all.
People are saying they have some type of brain connection because of the GUNDAM acronym. The N stands for Neuro-Link but I don't think any material has stated it requires a mental connection. It's just an acronym for the sake of being an acronym.
Could be in the space helmets.
I'm pretty sure multiple people pilot without helmets at times in SEED and Destiny. It's probably just another thing the setting writer came up with that Fukuda and Murosawa weren't interested in using.
At some point, it became OS incompatibility.
Supposedly the mobile suits internals work similar to human brains so all of the techno babble about synapses and neuro linking refers to that. There's nothing reflected in either the book or in show about any brain interface and in fact nothing but the opposite.
>can someone run me down on the CE mobile suits being controlled by brain waves?
Some seed mobile suits can be controlled by brain waves.
Specifically the Exus, Providence, Strike Freedom, etc. Basically units that have remote weapons. The pilot's brain waves wirelessly control dragoons (funnels). The databooks have some limited explanations about pilots being required to have "spatial awareness" and that only a small number of pilots qualified. We see Mwu, Kira, and Rau do it. However, the Director of Seed chose not to go into detail about the technology, and to focus more on the characters' stories, and action scenes of the show. He felt that was more important to him.
To add, the part about naturals being unable to pilot has nothing to do with 'frying their brain' in any literal sense, it's just declared to be such a complex task that their feeble human peabrains can't keep on top of it, and only the Coordinator ubermensch can do that, until they got an OS worked out that did he heavy lifting.
Is it gay to frick a tomboy?
Only if you think about her twin brother while doing it
It really just comes down to ZAFT not having any kind of plan for the finale beyond throwing lots of grunts and hoping Shinn and Rey could defeat Kira and Athrun. Any kind of strategy meeting where they informed all the commanders of all of their mobile suits and abilities and what to do about that clearly did not happen. Durandal was probably hoping the assassination on the moon would work and he wouldn't need to fight them in a space battle.
I hate it so much I can’t even properly put it into words. The CGI gold is absolutely vomit inducing
When Shinn beat Kira the first time, I acknowledged he won. But since Shinn could never beat Kira again in the 3 fights Shinn had after his first victory, I changed mymind. Shinn's only win was a fluke. Nothing more.
>mymind
GMS
>70 posts arguing about pushing a button
most sane SEED thread, be glad the cuck spammer got banned
>the cuck spammer
lel SEEDiot coping like Kira never getting to actually frick Lacus isn't just /m/ lore but Destiny canon
At least it's "intelligent" debate.
> It’s a good 1cm to get past the bars surrounding them and depressing the button is probably another 1cm at least, so no.
Both buttons we see are depressed, and the rails don't even look 1cm high. They're certainly less than 1cm when the buttons are up.
> Don’t use words you don’t comprehend just because the other guy used them.
Don't assume the other person doesn't know the meaning of something just because they disagree with you.
> Occam’s Razor doesn’t care for your extraneous assumption about why an unconscious man’s arm would stay in the position it was in when he fainted.
It will however care about the simplest explanation for why his hand is still on the controls with nothing to keep it there. Which, lacking anything else (and it does), suggests the button has just been pressed.
> Wrist, not hand. Nice straw man
Same difference in this case, but be more specific if it pleases you. His hand isn't resting on any buttons in that picture either. The area you encircled in blue is just some bevels and not any controls.
> and yes, there’s something in front of the kill switch that his wrist is sitting on, and probably holding up his arm if it’s not sitting on an armrest
We cannot see anything under his hand, and there is nothing in the scene implying any such controls exist. It seems to just he your assumption, though feel free to point them out if they exist.
> And I generally don’t know why you have an issue with Kira pressing the kill switch either just before getting impaled by Shinn, or a second after
Not a second after; several seconds after. One suggests Kira pressed it before the explosion, the other after. Which makes a difference.
>The Akatsuki is such a strange unit.
>It's based on the Strike and you can see it has the same frame, but it somehow seems to perform at the same level as the SF and IJ without an NJC.
Akatsuki may have a Strike Frame but that's about the only thing it has in common with Strike. The frame. Aka the Bones. The rest of the suit has been buffed and modernized with so much of the latest Orb tech that it's about on par with SF and IJ. It's like like taking a 1990s Toyota Camry, ripping out the engine and replacing it with a Corvette engine, and swapping all the parts with pro racing parts. It resembles a stock Toyota but it's not one. Akatsuki kinda looks like Strike, but it isn't one.
Databooks say Akatsuki was enhanced with leaked specs from the original Freedom and Justice Gundam. The animators didn't have time to animate it, but the Akatsuki backpack was actually supposed to detach and function like a drone and fight independently. Just like Justice Gundam.
Unfortunately, due to production issues (head writer Morosawa turning in scripts super late and not giving animators enough time), they had to scrap plans to animate the backpack detaching. Cagalli was supposed to be killing a lot more enemies, and showing off even more capabilities of Akatsuki.
The independent flight pack thing is REALLY obvious from the initial lineart too, it just straight up looks like a support fighter in it's non-docked mode that was never used in animation.
For me though, while all that explanation is logical, it's the timeframe that I don't think works and exposes it as bit of a clean up job after the fact. The Akatsuki was a pet project of Uzumi but not ready to be fielded during the invasion of Orb that killed him. That pretty firmly puts a ceiling on what it's tech level could be, since that means it was already constructed at a time when Orb got to put eyeballs on Freedom and Justice for what, maybe a week or so?
Unless we somehow assume that they then gutted a mostly completely mobile suit built around a Strike Gundam frame and internally remade it with reverse engineered observations of the ZAFT Gundams? Orb somehow supposedly obtaining Freedom and Justice specs before they were even stolel is the most unbelievable part where it starts approaching asspull territory.
I think it would have been better left not claiming it was a (near) contemporary of F&J and just left it as what amounted to a super buffed first generation Gundam with that armor levelling the playing field with it's technological superiors.
It's not that complicated really, Orb had plenty of time between rebuilding the nation and when the Akatsuki was actually fielded to implement improvements.
After all they rebuilt the entire Freedom from the scrap it was in a similar timeframe.
>After all they rebuilt the entire Freedom from the scrap it was in a similar timeframe.
Not going to lie this is somehow the very first time I've ever thought about that
I always figured that was possible because they had the Eternal, the dedicated carrier for that suit would have had at least some spare parts on hand
It's weird and kinda bullshit that Orb has so many secret military projects that the government or the nominal ruler families know nothing about, but Orb doesn't pretend to be a democracy so I guess it's okay?
Its manufacturing capacity is kind of obscene, considering they had to rebuild a lot of at least one major military/factory complex from rubble as well.
They completely rebuilt a Mass Driver too
>gorgeous gold paint job coating
>stupid goofy red clown shoes
fricking ruins it for me, every time
I laugh when some anons say a beam saber is Akatsuki's weakness. Bruh...a beam saber isn't a weakness. Every suit in Gundam Seed gets damaged by beam sabers. That's not a weakness. Its the only weapon that works.
Wouldn't it's weakness be projectile/explosive weaponry anyway?
That thing is basically a glorified Astray if you shoot something at it that isn't a beam.
It's not a "weakness" when every suit is damaged by projectile weaponry. It's like saying a human is "weak" to bullets. No bro. A bullet kills everything.
Everything at Akatsuki's level (and some below it) run PSA or VPS armor. They're invulnerable to those weapons in a way Akatsuki isn't.
But since Beams became the go to weapon for nearly everything being invincible to them vs physical weapons is a massive advantage. How many mobile suits have physical weapons by late Destiny that aren't head vulcans? The only ones that come to mind are Strike Freedom and Murasame's all of which are on Akatsuki's side anyway.
How is a 2v1 against Strike Freedom a legit fight? Shinn brought help because he couldn't take Strike Freedom 1v1 in a fight.
If you want a fair fight SF has to leave it's nuclear reactor at home.
WTF?? Huh? Why?
Shiny
You can thank all the orgone for that.
Orgone didn't do anything for me though, oi.