actually this is the one thing that Jackson got right. It never made sense to go through all of that journey to get the ghosts only from the to “scare away” some orcs in a dock. Having them help at the actual battle is way more interesting.
Army of the dead would have no effect on Sauron's forces since they were led by the Witch King. Aragorn could only use them to scare away the corsairs/pirates attacking Gondor's coastline holdings
The Army of the Dead wiping away Saurons army effortlessly makes every Gondorian and Rohirrim death that occurred prior to them coming, meaningless. It's like all the effort of men didn't mean anything since ghosts wiped everything out anyway.
Also, it makes no sense for Aragorn to make an agreement with the ghost army to JUST fight for ONE battle. Why not make an agreement to the whole war and get them to fight Sauron in Mordor?
But no, instead Jackson being an ADHD horror fanatic only cares about creating nonsensical turn of the tide climax scenes.
>Oh no! Witch King is gonna kill Gandalf.... hold on a sec, horn of Gondor saved him. Phew. >Oh no! Huge Oliphant army has arrived we're dead now.... hold on a sec Legolas just killed one whole Oliphant and about 20% of the reinforcements single handedly in a 60 second sequence. Phew! >Oh no! Reinforcements have arrived on the River.... hold on, its just Aragorn and the Gost Army. Phew
There are like 5 climactic scenes in the space of 10 minutes of just that battle alone. There are more random (mostly invented) events added in throughout the whole trilogy where it forcefully creates climax or drama for no reason (e.g. Go home Sam).
>Oh no! Witch King is gonna kill Gandalf.... hold on a sec, horn of Gondor saved him. Phew. >Oh no! Huge Oliphant army has arrived we're dead now.... hold on a sec Legolas just killed one whole Oliphant and about 20% of the reinforcements single handedly in a 60 second sequence. Phew! >Oh no! Reinforcements have arrived on the River.... hold on, its just Aragorn and the Gost Army. Phew
Jackson is a one trick pony. Uses the same trick frequently through the films and you can see he uses that as a crutch, while at the same time ruining some of the characters just to create these invented climactic moments.
That’s like saying reinforcement make skirmishes meaningless.
They didn’t know the army of the dead would work. They rode out knowing it was a long shot no matter the outcome, most expecting death, and they not only won but lived and solely because oaths are not easily broken, neither oaths of valor and kinship or oaths of loyalty long forgotten.
>That’s like saying reinforcement make skirmishes meaningless.
No it doesn't. With normal reinforcements there is a unification of the 'new army' with 'old army' and there's more of an emphasis on assistance rather than outright replacing the old army.
The key part here is how EFFORTLESSLY the ghost army wiped everything out, almost jokingly after most of the mortal men have died. >They didn't know the army of the dead will work
Still doesn't avoid the fact that when they do arrive it makes all the deaths beforehand SEEM pointless.
There was no need to change it specifically when in the book, it makes sense! Aragorn uses ghost army to scare away the Umbar Corsair reinforcements, and then gathers a small army of locals to take the boats up to Pelanor Fields where they do a pincer attack with 'old army' and 'aragorns arm' killing the orcs in the middle. You know, actual tactics that have been used in battle for thousands of years.
Also the way the movies portray Men as a race are like b***hes. They can't win anything by themselves, they either need help from Elven Archers in Helms Deep or Ghost Army. Meanwhile in the books, Men actually win battles by themselves it just takes a good leader (Aragorn) to succeed.
>Sauron didn't have counters against ghosts and lost.
Once again a Jackson blow-jobber who will make up his own headcannons to make sense of a invented scene in the movies.
The point is, there was no need to change it from the original. In the movies, the effort Gondor and Rohan put in to battle all becomes irrelevant and void as soon as the Ghost Army comes and cleans out everything.
Also its another example in the movies where the race of Men are depicted as b***hes. In the movies, Men don't win any battle by themselves. They always need significant help from Elf archers or Ghost Army. Meanwhile in the book, Men win through valiant determination.
The books are relevant when you use it to critique moronic decisions in the movies.
In the movies, some elements dont really make sense if you think about it long enough. So you either have to stop thinking before yiu realise the mistake or you create your own head canons (e.g. Gandalf works for onlyfans and thats why he lost against Witch King).
It's hilarious because some of the dumb elements to the movies are nearly as hilarious as modern day marvel movies.
There were no Orcs at the docks. Aragorn fricked up the human allies of Sauron that were attacking Gondor in the west and preventing the sizable army of Dol Amroth (a princedom in Gondor) from coming to aid Minas Tirith
They should have dropped that plot point altogether. Instead, have Theodem complain that he has to beeline to Minas Tirith instead of linking up with Gondor's armies because there's a big mountain range in the way. Aragorn says he'll take care of it and he takes a chosen band of mostly unnamed followers with his banner and Narsil over the mountains. There's one quick scene with him attacking a warband besieging a Gondor fort and the Gondorians realize they have leadership now. 30 mins later in the film you see Aragorn show up with Gondor's army. Aragorn and Eomer meet up in the melee with their respective banners and figuratively high-five eachother.
The "necromancer" never does a goddamn thing with undead. Otherwise he could have easily gone and gotten the ghosts himself and conquered all of middle earth. You morons just pull this shit out of your ass to excuse Tolkien and Jackson being hacks.
Sauron had control of the Ring Wraiths before the end of the second age (when he 'fell'). In the third age, Sauron didn't have the power to create any more new Wraiths.
>The "necromancer" never does a goddamn thing with undead.
what were the nine then? >You morons just pull this shit out of your ass to excuse Tolkien and Jackson being hacks.
yeah true
Necromancer is just waht they used to call Jim. He doesn't have the power (yet - at least not without the ring) to raise dead like he could before. Otherwise if Sauron could raise the dead there wouldn't just be 9 black riders, there would be an army of Black Riders.
>Gandalf fought random goons armed with swords time and time again.
That's fine. They probably could have killed him even. But they couldn't have broken his staff.
Why not? Where does this idea that a Wizard's Staff is some item of great power come from? Gandalf breaks his original staff destroying the bridge under the Balrog and then kills the Balrog just fine anyway. I'm not an expert on Tolkien but I've never gotten the impression that the staves are anything more than symbols of wizardry and at best minor conduits of power (unlike the magical rings for example).
The Balrog and Gandalf are the same creature essentially. >Where does this idea that a Wizard's Staff is some item of great power come from?
When Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff in judgement after he became Gandalf the White.
>When Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff in judgement after he became Gandalf the White
I read that as a symbolic act of taking away Saruman's position as head of the order and thus his influence and power (Like breaking a kings crown, or Isildur's sword). Like you mention Saruman is a creature like a Balrog, if the power they're taking from him is of a physical or magical nature breaking his staff would hardly make him harmless so it sounds unlikely that that is the meaning.
6 months ago
Anonymous
>I read that as a symbolic act of taking away Saruman's position as head of the order
Me too. That's why some random wraith being able to do it Gandalf is annoying to me.
6 months ago
Anonymous
>some random wraith
6 months ago
Anonymous
At best he's 1/9th as strong as Sauron.
6 months ago
Anonymous
Witch King is a random Wraith when compared to Gandalf, a literal aspect of Eru's own mind. Witch King is some secondary experiment.
6 months ago
Anonymous
>The battle seems lost = Gandalfs power is failing >the symbol of that power is broken >At the verge of ruin (once again, symbolized by the breaking of the staff) Theoden arrives and saves the day, Eowyn kills the airborne incel, Aragorn as the coming king is the new leader and symbol of good, Age of Man etc etc etc
I have no idea if Jackson thought about it that way (probably not) but the symbolism makes sense to me. Gandalf was never meant to stay forever.
6 months ago
Anonymous
I get it. I just don't like it. Gandalf is essentially and angel. A human shouldn't be the one breaking his staff. I get what they wanted to do. just wish they had done it in another way. No need to break the staff really.
Grima literally says it in Eodoras >The STAFF; you were supposed to take the wizards STAFF
Jesus I swear you anime-onlys haven't even watched the films either
It's not just the staff. Gandalf is thrown to the floor and is grovelling at the Witch Kings feet while Shadowfax is also in panic. Neither Gandalf or the Horse should have shown weakness or fear in this scene. Defeats the whole existence of Gandalf as an Istari and a Maia.
Something I realise is that there are a lot of nonsensical additions to LOTR. Something I realised is that the movie fans tend to brainstorm 'out of the box' explanations as to why these things happen, even though they never relate it back to anything Tolkien wrote. So they basically do an 'Amazon' and create their own headcanon (why by default is canon to them) to explain these wacky changes in the movies. >Why does Witch King so easily kill Gandalf the White? >Oh, Gandalf at the time suffered from chronic indigestion and he's also lactose intolerant so he was a bit poorly on the battle field at that moment
No give the fricking proper answer. Gandalf did not fall. This is an invention of Jackson to create climax because he's ADHD and needs a climactic kiment every second. In the books Gandalf stands strong and even Shadowfax is said to stand his ground when no other horse would have been able to.
The horse doesn't run away but it clearly panics. There's a reason why Gandalf fell on the floor in the first place and that's due to Shadowfax panicking and Gandalf falling off.
the elves coming to help the humans at helms deep is one of the best parts of the entire series. even though they are leaving middle earth they still honor an old alliance and fought with humans
>the elves coming to help the humans at helms deep is one of the best parts of the entire series.
Still kind of stupid if you think about it for more than 2 seconds.
Another example of Jackson creating tension and climactic moment out of nothing, even when the scenario makes it look ridiculous. Hundreds of elite elves all wasted. Also, who the frick cared that Haldir died? He has a screen time of about 5 minutes, over the course of two films and the screen goes slow motion as if we as the viewer have some sort of bond to him.
In the books, the orcs infiltrate through some tunnels without being seen.
Maybe Return of the King could've been better if Jackson didn't insist on spending 40 minutes on Helm's Deep and another 30 on random movie-original scenes in the previous film, forcing him to move actual book scenes from it into Return instead.
Neither of them is a frick up. No one takes these moronic nitpicks seriously. No one give a frick what moronic purists think because they don't use real arguments.
>Neither of them is a frick up
Only those who don't use their brain and just accept everything Jackson gives them, think like this.
Consume!
You have to create your own headcanons in order to overlook the fact that Aragorn could have used the Dead Army to defeat Saurons massive orc forces in Mordor.
actually this is the one thing that Jackson got right. It never made sense to go through all of that journey to get the ghosts only from the to “scare away” some orcs in a dock. Having them help at the actual battle is way more interesting.
OP is a moron
This. The worst thing he can accused of is not setting the king up to overtly untrustworthy and so make the releasing of his bond the obvious choice.
Army of the dead would have no effect on Sauron's forces since they were led by the Witch King. Aragorn could only use them to scare away the corsairs/pirates attacking Gondor's coastline holdings
>Army of the dead would have no effect on Sauron's forces since they were led by the Witch King.
The witch king was otherwise occupied having his ass handed out to him by a woman and a midget.
The Army of the Dead wiping away Saurons army effortlessly makes every Gondorian and Rohirrim death that occurred prior to them coming, meaningless. It's like all the effort of men didn't mean anything since ghosts wiped everything out anyway.
Also, it makes no sense for Aragorn to make an agreement with the ghost army to JUST fight for ONE battle. Why not make an agreement to the whole war and get them to fight Sauron in Mordor?
But no, instead Jackson being an ADHD horror fanatic only cares about creating nonsensical turn of the tide climax scenes.
>Oh no! Witch King is gonna kill Gandalf.... hold on a sec, horn of Gondor saved him. Phew.
>Oh no! Huge Oliphant army has arrived we're dead now.... hold on a sec Legolas just killed one whole Oliphant and about 20% of the reinforcements single handedly in a 60 second sequence. Phew!
>Oh no! Reinforcements have arrived on the River.... hold on, its just Aragorn and the Gost Army. Phew
There are like 5 climactic scenes in the space of 10 minutes of just that battle alone. There are more random (mostly invented) events added in throughout the whole trilogy where it forcefully creates climax or drama for no reason (e.g. Go home Sam).
>Oh no! Witch King is gonna kill Gandalf.... hold on a sec, horn of Gondor saved him. Phew.
>Oh no! Huge Oliphant army has arrived we're dead now.... hold on a sec Legolas just killed one whole Oliphant and about 20% of the reinforcements single handedly in a 60 second sequence. Phew!
>Oh no! Reinforcements have arrived on the River.... hold on, its just Aragorn and the Gost Army. Phew
Jackson is a one trick pony. Uses the same trick frequently through the films and you can see he uses that as a crutch, while at the same time ruining some of the characters just to create these invented climactic moments.
The army of dead just should have not be invincible
That’s like saying reinforcement make skirmishes meaningless.
They didn’t know the army of the dead would work. They rode out knowing it was a long shot no matter the outcome, most expecting death, and they not only won but lived and solely because oaths are not easily broken, neither oaths of valor and kinship or oaths of loyalty long forgotten.
>That’s like saying reinforcement make skirmishes meaningless.
No it doesn't. With normal reinforcements there is a unification of the 'new army' with 'old army' and there's more of an emphasis on assistance rather than outright replacing the old army.
The key part here is how EFFORTLESSLY the ghost army wiped everything out, almost jokingly after most of the mortal men have died.
>They didn't know the army of the dead will work
Still doesn't avoid the fact that when they do arrive it makes all the deaths beforehand SEEM pointless.
There was no need to change it specifically when in the book, it makes sense! Aragorn uses ghost army to scare away the Umbar Corsair reinforcements, and then gathers a small army of locals to take the boats up to Pelanor Fields where they do a pincer attack with 'old army' and 'aragorns arm' killing the orcs in the middle. You know, actual tactics that have been used in battle for thousands of years.
Also the way the movies portray Men as a race are like b***hes. They can't win anything by themselves, they either need help from Elven Archers in Helms Deep or Ghost Army. Meanwhile in the books, Men actually win battles by themselves it just takes a good leader (Aragorn) to succeed.
Ghosts are men. Just dead man's. It's like complain about elderly.
>every death needs a meaning
death is death.
Understand what context and narrative means, then come back and I'll teach you more.
Hahaha. Wars are decided by advanced weapons like nukes. This is how it is. Ghosts strong. Sauron didn't have counters against ghosts and lost.
>Sauron didn't have counters against ghosts and lost.
Once again a Jackson blow-jobber who will make up his own headcannons to make sense of a invented scene in the movies.
The point is, there was no need to change it from the original. In the movies, the effort Gondor and Rohan put in to battle all becomes irrelevant and void as soon as the Ghost Army comes and cleans out everything.
Also its another example in the movies where the race of Men are depicted as b***hes. In the movies, Men don't win any battle by themselves. They always need significant help from Elf archers or Ghost Army. Meanwhile in the book, Men win through valiant determination.
The books are irrelevant when discussing the film and vice versa.
The books are relevant when you use it to critique moronic decisions in the movies.
In the movies, some elements dont really make sense if you think about it long enough. So you either have to stop thinking before yiu realise the mistake or you create your own head canons (e.g. Gandalf works for onlyfans and thats why he lost against Witch King).
It's hilarious because some of the dumb elements to the movies are nearly as hilarious as modern day marvel movies.
Not when Hackson destroyed the source material and started the capeshit wave that we are only now exiting 20 years later
There were no Orcs at the docks. Aragorn fricked up the human allies of Sauron that were attacking Gondor in the west and preventing the sizable army of Dol Amroth (a princedom in Gondor) from coming to aid Minas Tirith
They should have dropped that plot point altogether. Instead, have Theodem complain that he has to beeline to Minas Tirith instead of linking up with Gondor's armies because there's a big mountain range in the way. Aragorn says he'll take care of it and he takes a chosen band of mostly unnamed followers with his banner and Narsil over the mountains. There's one quick scene with him attacking a warband besieging a Gondor fort and the Gondorians realize they have leadership now. 30 mins later in the film you see Aragorn show up with Gondor's army. Aragorn and Eomer meet up in the melee with their respective banners and figuratively high-five eachother.
I see what you did there
Yeah... why didn't he just ask them to fight in the war for him instead of "fight this one specific tiny battle"
>send a ghost army
>to sauron the necromancer
what could go wrong
The "necromancer" never does a goddamn thing with undead. Otherwise he could have easily gone and gotten the ghosts himself and conquered all of middle earth. You morons just pull this shit out of your ass to excuse Tolkien and Jackson being hacks.
The ring wraiths are undead controlled by sauron.
You are too dumb for this conversation
Sauron had control of the Ring Wraiths before the end of the second age (when he 'fell'). In the third age, Sauron didn't have the power to create any more new Wraiths.
>The "necromancer" never does a goddamn thing with undead.
what were the nine then?
>You morons just pull this shit out of your ass to excuse Tolkien and Jackson being hacks.
yeah true
Necromancer is just waht they used to call Jim. He doesn't have the power (yet - at least not without the ring) to raise dead like he could before. Otherwise if Sauron could raise the dead there wouldn't just be 9 black riders, there would be an army of Black Riders.
LOTR series is some of the best films made but they are also trash
And that says everything you need to know about Hollywood.
FOTR > TTee > ROTK
This triggers my autism the most out of everything. The Witchking isn't leveled high enough to do this. It just doesn't make sense.
TT is the only good extended edition
discard the rest
Nobody cares bookgay. It was badass and cool
>muh power levels
This scene really filters morons. Reminder that Gandalf fought random goons armed with swords time and time again.
>Gandalf fought random goons armed with swords time and time again.
That's fine. They probably could have killed him even. But they couldn't have broken his staff.
Gandalf's big white staff
Why not? Where does this idea that a Wizard's Staff is some item of great power come from? Gandalf breaks his original staff destroying the bridge under the Balrog and then kills the Balrog just fine anyway. I'm not an expert on Tolkien but I've never gotten the impression that the staves are anything more than symbols of wizardry and at best minor conduits of power (unlike the magical rings for example).
The Balrog and Gandalf are the same creature essentially.
>Where does this idea that a Wizard's Staff is some item of great power come from?
When Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff in judgement after he became Gandalf the White.
>When Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff in judgement after he became Gandalf the White
I read that as a symbolic act of taking away Saruman's position as head of the order and thus his influence and power (Like breaking a kings crown, or Isildur's sword). Like you mention Saruman is a creature like a Balrog, if the power they're taking from him is of a physical or magical nature breaking his staff would hardly make him harmless so it sounds unlikely that that is the meaning.
>I read that as a symbolic act of taking away Saruman's position as head of the order
Me too. That's why some random wraith being able to do it Gandalf is annoying to me.
>some random wraith
At best he's 1/9th as strong as Sauron.
Witch King is a random Wraith when compared to Gandalf, a literal aspect of Eru's own mind. Witch King is some secondary experiment.
>The battle seems lost = Gandalfs power is failing
>the symbol of that power is broken
>At the verge of ruin (once again, symbolized by the breaking of the staff) Theoden arrives and saves the day, Eowyn kills the airborne incel, Aragorn as the coming king is the new leader and symbol of good, Age of Man etc etc etc
I have no idea if Jackson thought about it that way (probably not) but the symbolism makes sense to me. Gandalf was never meant to stay forever.
I get it. I just don't like it. Gandalf is essentially and angel. A human shouldn't be the one breaking his staff. I get what they wanted to do. just wish they had done it in another way. No need to break the staff really.
That's a reasonable stance.
Grima literally says it in Eodoras
>The STAFF; you were supposed to take the wizards STAFF
Jesus I swear you anime-onlys haven't even watched the films either
The Witch King had a plot sword, gifted to him by Jackson himself.
The staff is not important since it come from nowhere basically. And fire sword is literally in the books.
It's not just the staff. Gandalf is thrown to the floor and is grovelling at the Witch Kings feet while Shadowfax is also in panic. Neither Gandalf or the Horse should have shown weakness or fear in this scene. Defeats the whole existence of Gandalf as an Istari and a Maia.
It was a status debuff. Those things usually do not scale with level
look up banking and financial services oath
and you'll get it
Dude, I love discussing Tolkien's works with 16-year old favela monkeys on Cinemaphile! Tell me more about your "story improvement" ideas!
More like the b***h King of Wanged Arse
I liked the elves at Helm's Deep
Me too. I thought it was cool their friends showed up to help.
Something I realise is that there are a lot of nonsensical additions to LOTR. Something I realised is that the movie fans tend to brainstorm 'out of the box' explanations as to why these things happen, even though they never relate it back to anything Tolkien wrote. So they basically do an 'Amazon' and create their own headcanon (why by default is canon to them) to explain these wacky changes in the movies.
>Why does Witch King so easily kill Gandalf the White?
>Oh, Gandalf at the time suffered from chronic indigestion and he's also lactose intolerant so he was a bit poorly on the battle field at that moment
No give the fricking proper answer. Gandalf did not fall. This is an invention of Jackson to create climax because he's ADHD and needs a climactic kiment every second. In the books Gandalf stands strong and even Shadowfax is said to stand his ground when no other horse would have been able to.
>and even Shadowfax is said to stand his ground
To be fair, he never backs down in the movie. Perhaps Jackson is a horse in disguise.
The horse doesn't run away but it clearly panics. There's a reason why Gandalf fell on the floor in the first place and that's due to Shadowfax panicking and Gandalf falling off.
I just hate the green tides of cgi vomit sweeping over everything
the elves coming to help the humans at helms deep is one of the best parts of the entire series. even though they are leaving middle earth they still honor an old alliance and fought with humans
everyone who doesn't like that can eat shit
>the elves coming to help the humans at helms deep is one of the best parts of the entire series.
Still kind of stupid if you think about it for more than 2 seconds.
Another example of Jackson creating tension and climactic moment out of nothing, even when the scenario makes it look ridiculous. Hundreds of elite elves all wasted. Also, who the frick cared that Haldir died? He has a screen time of about 5 minutes, over the course of two films and the screen goes slow motion as if we as the viewer have some sort of bond to him.
In the books, the orcs infiltrate through some tunnels without being seen.
You're not supposed to think. Peter Jackson is the equivalent to Michael Bay in terms of depth.
Wide as an Ocean, Shallow as a puddle.
Maybe Return of the King could've been better if Jackson didn't insist on spending 40 minutes on Helm's Deep and another 30 on random movie-original scenes in the previous film, forcing him to move actual book scenes from it into Return instead.
Neither of them is a frick up. No one takes these moronic nitpicks seriously. No one give a frick what moronic purists think because they don't use real arguments.
>Neither of them is a frick up
Only those who don't use their brain and just accept everything Jackson gives them, think like this.
Consume!
You have to create your own headcanons in order to overlook the fact that Aragorn could have used the Dead Army to defeat Saurons massive orc forces in Mordor.
>Just accept anything that happens on screen. Who cares of it doesn't make sense.
The worst thing he did was cut the chad Imrahil and the Knights of Dol Amroth