The funny thing about Star Wars Rebels is that everyone who doubted the rebellion would achieve anything was proven right by the sequels.
The funny thing about Star Wars Rebels is that everyone who doubted the rebellion would achieve anything was proven right by the sequels.
Going by the streamed series, the New Order fricked by blowing up the Hosian system in TFA since they probably killed more Empire sympathizers than New Republic loyalists.
How will things be any different after RoS? Will the New New Republic folks just execute the Imperials? Rehabilitating them failed completely.
the imps will keep coming back because someone needs to sell stormtrooper action figures
here's a genius idea: non-imperial stormies or at least a new republic that doesn't dress like morons
I mean they could have just made them a couple of imperial holdouts that didn't give up fighting
yeah, that was the right path but instead we got the equivalent of Al-Qaeda with a modern military and a stockpile of nukes
a counter-insurgency plot must have been too sensitive because if feels as if it's trivializing or supporting Bush's GWoT
I was thinking of something in the line of the last nazis fighting in the near end of the war
or neo-nazi terrorists, but americans don't understand nuance, or at least the media elites don't think they could
I hate that new shows are making the new republic as inept as possible to justify TFA's bullshit
Well the rebellion did achieve something but they fricked up by letting the NR be governed by the same breed of decadent senators that made things easy for Palpatine before the Empire
Who else thinks a legitimately run version of the CIS could work? You know, without the secret Sith agenda and all that.
I try to not think too hard about stuff like this since it's all just weakly assembled worldbuilding
CIS were only united by anti-republic sentiment, I don't think it could work without a common enemy. Infighting between pro-republic and pro-CIS elements in the post-empire galaxy is more plausible.
The CIS should have used clones. Specifically, alien clones. The first movie should have set up Palpatine purposefully antagonising outlying systems into becoming the CIS. Knowing they were outnumbered the CIS would use cloning and be pushed into the war. The Republic should have only had various systems planetary defense forces. And Palpatine should have begun to unite those forces under a central command. Thus becoming the Empire military. This would explain why people would want to become Stormtroopers and why aliens weren't featured in the Empire military. The CIS in the movies are just kinda bland corporate alliances. The CIS in the show have a parliament and they try and act like they are noble. But droids vs clones was boring.
>But droids vs clones was an excuse to absolutely drown the screen in faceless PS2-tier CGI mobs
Clones get better when they're developed, but the prequels treat them as Australian droids with cooler uniforms and little else.
Like no one even looks at another character and goes "So we're really just breeding a slave race born to die? This doesn't seem right"
But the real point of the clone army was a rootless, valueless army that was only obeidiant to (corrupt) central authority. That's how Palpatine took over.
>That's how Palpatine took over.
Palpatine took over by creating an emergency to give him more authority and then abused that authority. Him bringing together seperate forces under his command and militarising them is a great explanation for how the Empire military was built. But the fact that some armies aren't rootless also easily explains why some forces became part of the Rebellion.
In canon we have them using clones then in Bad Batch they decide clones are too expensive and instead just get Stormtroopers. And canonically these troopers are poorly trained hence why they have bad aim. That isn't interesting. Why would normal citizens want to fight for the Emperor? Why not give them reason to because they were trained to? Make these system forces more beholden to the the Chancellor and swear allegiance to him.
I think the big problem for me is this: Palpatine used a crisis to gain power and more authority. The problem is the crisis is kind of removed from peoples lives. Some outer rim sieges, mid rim, attack on Coruscant. But when the people dying are mostly Clones and droids there isn't really any stake in it.
A huge calamity like alien clones attacking the Republic and disperate planetary forces fighting back means there is some stake in it for people. It means the war is more real than what was displayed.
The war needed actual Republic citizens fighting and dying. And sure the cartoons had some of that but not the main armies in the war.
>But when the people dying are mostly Clones and droids there isn't really any stake in it.
That's the genius of Palpatine's plan. He engineered a conflict that's nominally an existential threat to the Republic, but by using these proxy armies on both sides, he's avoiding a lot of the problems that would cause for him down the line. He rises in power, while the people actually dying in the war are mainly clones, droids, and Jedi. The damage the war does to his future Empire is thus minimized.
Plus there's the obvious problem that convincing real people soldiers to turn on their Jedi wouldn't have gone well and he could've ended up with a real civil war on his hands instead of a fake one.
>rootless, valueless army
And this is why the prequels feel hollow. Having true believers built into the cause is interesting. Having hardened veterans who fought for the cause and began to see Palpatines vision is far scarier than having inhibitor chips. Having Palpatine literally militarise and radicalise people to his side to support the Empire.
I mean, Palpatine engineered the war to create a pretense for becoming Emperor instead of just Chancellor, so it sorta makes sense for both armies to literally be manufactured.
Then again, I might just be putting more thought into it than I needed to.
You know how people criticise the prequels because of the green screen and feeling fake? Well I almost feel like the depiction of war in the Clone Wars almost feels fake. Because it is almost like a proxy war between two manufactured armies without stakes. For a crisis to work there actually has to be some more death and destruction and with how big the galaxy is it almost feels like the war didn't impact the average person that much.
When the Clone Wars ended why did people still support Palpatine? Why would they support the Empire? Having people radicalised would help that. But the films and shows didn't do enough of a good job showing this. If you had soldiers for one planet, suddenly for the war effort they are no longer controlled by x planet but centrally by the Republic under Palpatine. And swear allegiance to him. And become a united force under him. You can then build an army of true believers who later become the Stormtroopers of the Empire.
The whole replacing clones with people in-canon has been handled so poorly and feels pretty eh. It almost feels like the Empire designed itself to fail.
>let's get cheap untrained conscripts who can't shoot straight lol
Well if the tv shows are any indication, there was impact for the people on the planets being fought on.
But I know that's probably not what you mean.
The shows did have that but again, it felt rather small scale.
>The damage the war does to his future Empire is thus minimized.
I've heard this argument before. And I don't like it. Firstly, a war with little damage is not interesting or entertaining for viewers. And secondly, for people in universe, why would you allow your whole system to change because of something that barely touched your life? Now I am sure your counter argument might be along the lines of, well it was information manipulation etc. But my counter point would be, well the Galaxy is often small scale, not as heavily developed and connected in places. People would need the war to touch them to actually understand things and help Palpatine win them over in his new system.
Why would people need the safety and security of the new Empire post Clone Wars? Why not go back to normal? Well, because, the crisis should have actually damaged things and created an anxiety of things getting worse.
You're thinking about this in very stark terms. A core element of Palpatine's plot was to use the war to lull the Senate into investing more and more power into him via the looming threat of the CIS. After all, you don't need to be on the frontlines to feel threatened by the CIS's evil droid army. By the time the CIS is defeated, then it's too late to stop Palpatine. You've surrendered huge amounts of power to him and you can't actually force him to give any of it up. You don't just get to walk away now. The Jedi are gone, the CIS is gone. Palpatine is your Emperor now. But the Senate's still there for now. Maybe things won't be too different than they were before.
And then next thing you know, there's Stormtrooper garrisons on your planet and Star Destroyers in orbit and you wonder if maybe Dooku had been right all along (no doubt unaware that he was in on it the whole time).
>in on it the whole time
Not entirely. He didn't know he was gonna get beheaded scissor-style.
The problem I have with these arguments is more and more they become a repetition of things I know. I feel like you're ignoring what I previously said. These things weren't depicted that well and feel more like inferences from the movie. And they could have been done, in some rather visual ways too! I am not talking about the need for plot heavy exposition here.
The problem with your post is it makes it seem like the Empire falling was inevitable. I am saying you could have shown how some in the Republic became true belivers. The problem is the movies don't really show that well. Having bigger war, bigger stakes, actual soldiers dying and making the enemies the clones, all in all would help do this.
If after a war there isn't much damage, wouldn't you feel like the crisis is over? Really, the war being over and having damage would mean the crisis wasn't over. And that could show Palpatine building his influence even more. Instead we get a sanitised proxy war that people just accepted as a crisis and moved on just because. Rather than battle hardened true belivers believing the righteous cause of becoming an Empire and others going along with it.
This discussion is getting rather circular because my argument is just, the prequels were often concept over depiction, inferences over being shown. And your response is just explaining things I already know. Unlike the OT these films had to do a bit more to set up the conflict and I feel like they didn't do that. I feel like parts of the Republic falling as well as Anakin were glossed over a bit. And simple changes could have improved it.
>When the Clone Wars ended why did people still support Palpatine? Why would they support the Empire?
Well there's three main scenarios a particular system would be in after the war.
1) They'd remained loyal to the Republic and had likely been party to granting Palpatine more and more power. Now that the CIS is defeated and Palpatine is unopposed, it's a bit late to jump ship.
2) They'd been part of the CIS and are now likely under military occupation. They don't really have a choice about "supporting" Palpatine.
3) They'd been a neutral system during the war and now Palpatine is in control of the most powerful military force in the galaxy. As before, it's a bit late to fight him.
It's not really a choice and that's by design. Palpatine had swept the board of all the serious opposition. All that was left were dissidents, insurgents, and holdouts who would take nearly 20 years to form into a coherent rebellion.
>it's a bit late to jump ship.
A lot of people, including the Jedi, expected him to give up his powers.
>They'd been part of the CIS and are now likely under military occupation.
Yep.
>Palpatine is in control of the most powerful military force in the galaxy.
A force that he replaces with incompetence.
Just to be clear anon, you are understanding and seeing what I am saying? That showing war damage and having more reasons why the average person who support the Empire would make good world building. And the prequels really didn't properly show that descent from Republic to Empire in an entertaining or interesting enough way. So much of what people say about Palpatine are inferences we take from the films. This leads to the feeling amongst some that the prequels problem is the concepts are far more interesting than how they ended up being depicted.
And that is my central issue. I don't mind the core tenant of Palpatine manipulating things and the Republic falling while Anakin Skywalker also falls. That's fine. Just how it was done leaves a lot out. I am not saying the prequels needed loads of stuff dedicated to "the common man" but you could have shown the war in a scope and scale to show that it was more than what we got. Do you see what I mean?
>A lot of people, including the Jedi, expected him to give up his powers.
So what? The Jedi are gone. It took years of Dooku stirring the pot to get the Separatist movement going and form the CIS and Palpatine had just crushed it. Are you ready to start a brand new war with Palpatine?
>A force that he replaces with incompetence.
You're overstating how impotent the Imperial military is. And besides, there's only so competent you need to be when your military is magnitudes larger and better equipped than anyone else's. The Rebel Alliance was the underdog for a reason.
>That showing war damage and having more reasons why the average person who support the Empire would make good world building
It doesn't really matter whether or not the average person supports the Empire. What mattered was the Senate, who had gladly given Palpatine all the power he needed to defeat the CIS. And by the time the CIS was defeated, it was too late.
>It doesn't really matter whether or not the average person supports the Empire.
If you want to show how a system changes from Republic to Empire then showing what people think and how/why they accepted it is important.
Because if you don't show more of it, it ends up feeling hollow even if the line sounds good.
>it was too late.
Most planets were completely untouched by the war. Why would they all willing just accept it and not ask for powers to be removed? Maybe if their planets were damaged and people were killed and some of them had been radicalised into Palpatines way of thinking. Your description makes it sound like people just went OOPS nothing we can do about it now.
>Your description makes it sound like people just went OOPS nothing we can do about it now.
Pretty much. What else are you gonna do after Palpatine just declared himself Emperor? Try to make CIS 2.0 and give Palpatine another run? It's too fricking late. You can either go along with the Emperor or you can get blasted like the last round of Separatists. What do you think most systems are gonna do?
>get blasted
Who got blasted? You mean that proxy war between two big armies of disposable forces? That's the problem.
No, Palpatine's plotting in the prequel trilogy is far and away the cleverest thing in the whole franchise, so it would be difficult to over think it. A Xanatos Gambit on a galactic scale. I don't think that Anakin ever fully grasped about how completely he had been played.
I mean that I was overthinking it by saying "it's supposed to feel like a fake and hollow war to the audience" which seemed like a complaint.
I think the audience is supposed to be wowed by a bunch of laser fights and explosions while faceless npcs and bots do all the dying. All action, no repercussions, though you have to do some digging to find out that billions of people still died in the war.
The empire lasted like two decades. The first order lasted like five years. It seems longer because they can't come up with another great antagonist. It would be like if Star Trek was set around the Dominion War and every show book and movie had to have something to do with it. Its goofy. They act like they have a whole galaxy to explore but they only use the same 7 planets over and over. The star wars "galaxy" is smaller than our own solar system. lol
So is the Republic just the United Nations in space, or is it supposed to be more than that?
>United Nations in space
more like a medieval government made up of feudal states
I was thinking because it seemed less like they were an actual government, and more like an organization that handled disputes and issues.
Then again, I don't actually know a whole lot about the UN, so maybe that's why I'm confused.
Oh, yeah, because they have one currency.
The Republic was, ironically, a confederation. There really isn't a clean point of comparison to real world politics. The Republic's primary issue is that it was simply too large and too bureaucratized to govern effectively.
So was the Confederation also a confederation, or was it something else?
Dare I say, an oligarchy?
its a confederation, the only difference between a confederacy and a federation is that confederation members can enter and leave at any time
>simply too large and too bureaucratized to govern effectively.
Is that why the Republic is bad or is it because Palpatine has been helping the Republic decline?
Even without Palpatine the Republic is shown as almost entirely inert in dealing with anything. It is too big to function.
Maybe more like the European Union in space.
space HRE
As in the Holy Roman Empire, or something else?
The Empire lasted twenty years, the New Republic managed thirty despite being actively sabotaged the entire time.
Has anyone ever claimed the sequel trilogy was an allegory for China?
>Empire becomes a weaker government, which then gets overthrown
I'm not saying I think it's supposed to be one, but I can see how somebody with limited knowledge of China's history might draw those parallels.
Nope, I see no similarities at all.
I can't tell if the fact you didn't just say no, and added to it, means you're being sarcastic, or if you're just emphasizing it and I'm overthinking it.
The prequel back plot should have just been a lot simpler. It actually hurts the movie by taking away from the characters and ruining the pacing at moments. Galactic politics should mostly be left for the TV shows and books.
Now imagine if there was a third faction that opposed both the Republic and the Confederacy because they viewed the use of droids and clones as an affront to the sacrifices of previous wars... or something like that.
Alright, I might just be reaching for an excuse to make a Gundam Wing reference, so maybe just forget I made this post.
The other thing is the Empire may have switched gears to autocracy soon after declaring he had Unlimited Power. But the Senate sat around for 20 years proposing and rubber-stamping and even querying bills. Palpatine was an old man, they probably thought they could outlast this megalomaniacal spasm and claw back power with no apparent heir.
What they weren’t expecting is the Empire slowly going through the back channels against everyone. Economic warfare on the people who can barely fight back to enrich the people who could use their power against the system. Then subverting those people as well with threats and corruption. All being funnelled towards the ultimate delusion of power. A space station designed to trap everyone in fear forever while Palpatine figured out how to be immortal.