The higher path is forgiveness. It's what Jesus would do. Have no enemies.
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 Tip Your Landlord Shirt $21.68 |
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The higher path is forgiveness. It's what Jesus would do. Have no enemies.
The higher path is forgiveness. It's what Jesus would do. Have no enemies.
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Tip Your Landlord Shirt $21.68 |
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calm down, katara. toph wanted him too
Katara has no choice. She must have sex with Toph. It's what a loving mother would do.
What is forgiveness? Is it absolving a person from the guilt of their actions, letting go of the anger for your own sake, or something else? We should be specific here or else we'll just end up talking past each other.
It's both letting go of your anger and not seeking retribution.
go away
So Katara chose not to exact retribution when she had the chance, but still chooses to hold on to her anger. Why do people do that? It doesn't seem fair to herself that she should burden herself with that anger. Why continue holding onto it?
If that's how you really feel, trying to rationalize yourself out of it will be pure cope.
The idea that your emotions aren't at all subject to your conscious or deliberate control has been the bane of several generation now.
Then how do you get out of it? Are you just stuck feeling the way that you do, or is there something you can do about it?
Sure, it's called murder.
>Then how do you get out of it?
>"That's the thing, you don't"
Once you've give it up as a bad job, the anger does fade away. I'm not saying I'd be friendly to the man I have in mind, but if we did meet again I wouldn't hurt him, and if not for this thread I wouldn't have thought about him at all.
It's all about time, on a large scale. Eventually you come to a point where it'll hit you that you haven't thought about them at all in a long time, and that's ok.
Anger is self generating. To let go of it would mean to let of your sense of justice. What she has let go of is her desire for revenge because it would be violence merely for her angers sake. Also because this is a kids show and you can have heroes committing gratuitous murder.
That's not forgiveness then, that's just moving on with your life
Forgiveness REQUIRES the victim to sympathize with their wrongdoer
Not according to any dictionary. Who's been lying to you?
>Not according to any dictionary.
>https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forgive
>#to give up resentment of or claim to requital
>#to grant relief from payment of
>#to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon
>https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pardon
>#the excusing of an offense without exacting a penalty
offered a pardon to the draft evader
>#release from the legal penalties of an offense
>#excuse or forgiveness for a fault, offense, or discourtesy
That anon maybe was phrasing this wrong but everyone else in the thread claiming forgiveness is somehow a independent process is insane. There is a very real difference between deciding to resolve your own feelings of anger/fear/hate/whatever, and forgiving the person that caused it.
>There is a very real difference between deciding to resolve your own feelings of anger/fear/hate/whatever
That's literally what every definition you listed is saying tho. To give up your feelings of anger, and to not seek retribution.
Giving up something doesn't matter if there's not someone on the other side to accept it.
There's a reason why in religions people beg their god for forgiveness for their wrongdoing
Religious people pray for forgiveness because it makes them feel better.
I gave up smoking, but it doesn't matter because there's nobody on the other side to accept me giving it up, whatever the hell that means.
you could look at prayer as a psychological self-soothing mechanism. Look at therapy practices. They will outright state that sometimes you have to use repetitive soothing and coping mechanisms in order to get through the day. Is this not akin to religious rites and rituals?
You could easily make the statement that the only difference between a bible study group and group therapy is they switch out the bible for the DSM. its just a different dogma to worship for these kinds of people.
Psychotherapy, primitive though it is, emphasises rational behaviour. If you self-soothe, you know why you're doing it and how it's supposed to work and can judge it for yourself and modify it at need, you're not casting spells. I'm 100% confident that being a member of a church group provides psychological benefits, I'd just prefer it wasn't tied in with dogma and faith making it also a vector for irrational, unhealthy attitudes and behaviours that can cause you and other people to suffer.
I like that she did the right thing despite not forgiving him.
No, it's ridiculous and schizophrenic. She doesn't forgive him but she doesn't kill him? As
says, there's no Christianity in ATLA, so there's no precedent for revenge being bad. Actually in certain Asian ethical systems I think revenge is said to be a GOOD thing.
The morality of this episode is a fricking mess, and frankly we could have foretold what a mess Sozin's Comet would be because of this episode preceding it.
Killing him wouldn't have brought her mom back. It wouldn't even have ended any further suffering, the guy was already retired and pathetic, taking care of his shitty mom. It would've just been another pointless act of violence that continues the cycle. You don't need Christianity to realise that.
>The morality of this episode is a fricking mess
Stop looking at cartoons for moral lessons. These are stories, not parables.
It means that she doesn't see the need to actively pursue him anymore as a target of vengeance. She didn't explicitly forgive him, she just let herself feel emotional catharsis in that the man who took her mother's life is no longer capable of causing others active harm. Basically, she walked away from her grudge since killing him wouldn't make her feel any better than just letting him continue to live with the shame he feels everyday.
>there's no Christianity in ATLA, so there's no precedent for revenge being bad.
what the actual frick lmao
>No, it's ridiculous and schizophrenic. She doesn't forgive him but she doesn't kill him there's no Christianity in ATLA, so there's no precedent for revenge being bad. Actually in certain Asian ethical systems I think revenge is said to be a GOOD thing.
>there's no precedent, except there is a precedent but it decided against it
Ridiculous and schizophrenic. Precedent is precedent, the idea either existed or it didn't. And the idea that revenge is bad is as old as civilisation, much older than Christianity.
In this case you're probably thinking of Confucius. To quote directly from the Analects (14-34):
>Man say, "What you say, Confucius, to pay back injury with kindness? How that be?"
>Confucius say, "How then pay back kindness? Pay injury justice, kindness kindness."
As you can see here, he's clearly addressing a pre-existing principle, and the Master is calling not for vengeance in place of kindness but for 直, straightness or rectitude.
>there's no Christianity in ATLA, so there's no precedent for revenge being bad.
Listen, I have nothing against religion.
But you a honest to God AI npc if all your moral and ethical choices are determined to you purely cause of whatever systematic religion dictates is correct and nothing else.
based
You can call it an interpretation but people forget that the bible is still a work of man. God’s word filtered through the minds and hands of men. it has been translated into countless languages, each with its own works, starting as hebrew, then greek, latin, et cetera. Mistranslations, language quirks, things like that can skew the deeper meanings and linguistics is funny at times like that.
Dogmatically following merely what is written on the page can lead one to damnation just as how ignoring it entirely can.
>it has been translated into countless languages
Curious, and who's fault was that? There being countless languages, I mean.
If we go by Bible rules either humanity's hubris or God depending on the type of person you are.
There is no Christianity in ATLA.
Their world is morally inferior.
there is no christianity in atla
BUT the spiritual basis of the show is still very christian based
Christians think everything is Christian-based. They can recognise Christianity's influence on other things but not vice versa since the word of God is immutable, so any time there's similarity it's "Christian".
not christian but much of the shows spiritual and moral substance is based on western tradition. while it has the exterior of asianess and does use concepts from asian teachings (ie avatar), most of the characters' world views are based on western world view. the shows touches on things such as sin, redemption, and prophecy (things which show up in eastern philosophies but often in different ways). i watched a video which analyzed avatar's moral basis and compared it to the moral basis of chinese philosphies (confucianism, taoism, buddhism).
>i watched a video
Oh well if a VIDEO said so
i watched a video that says the christhomosexualry isnt a real thing until Korra
I bet your one of those morons who actually think Vaatu represents Satan instead of just being a lazy take on Yin and Yang
Will Sokka forgive you for asccusing him of not loving your mother? Ask yourself that, you c**t.
>asccusing him of not loving your mother?
She accused him of not loving their mother as much as she did.
>what's the difference
A lot. and if you can't figure that out then you have a low understanding of the English language and people would probably have a better time reasoning with a gorilla than with you.
She's 14 anon, she's in peak hormonal teenage bullshit mode
Just because usually she's more mature than that, doesn't mean occasionally she doesn't do stupid teenage stuff herself
Would have been a perfect time for Aang to go all angsty Dark Avatar but "NOOOO HE HAS TO BE A moron FOR THE SAKE OF HIS HERO'S JOURNEY"
Katara is morally justified in taking that mans life. It's bullshit that the writers had her wimp out.
She's not
Kid show, dude.
>NOOOOOO DON'T KILL THE PEOPLE WHO WRONGED YOU
Having no enemies and turning the other cheek means understanding your fellow man and acknowledging that they are human beings, but not to be a moronic pacifist. See the side of all things and then make the decision.
If someone threatens to kill you and your family with a knife, you subdue them. If someone shoots you, you shoot them back. If someone murders your entire family, send them straight to God for judgment.
but is that justice?
Katara did get to make this guy think he was going to die which is a form of revenge.
Forgiveness isn't given, It's earned, Same as respect.
Ozai received a fate worse than death.
Imprisonment or losing his bending?
both
Meh, I could think of worse fates.
no you don't see, taking the gun away from the criminal is worse than removing his limbs
He literally burned her mother alive
>He could have kept her as a sex slave instead
What a waste.
You just know what's going through her head here.
Hama probably taught them the hard way that capturing water benders and keeping them alive as prisoners is dangerous. Better kill them before the next full moon, just to be safe.
A month is plenty of time for stockholm syndrome to set in.
There’s a very good chance that Hama is also responsible for Katara’s mother’s death and she should’ve gone for her next
It's a shame how this thread doesn't even care about this post, because he's right. Hama got Katara's mom killed, among countless other waterbenders.
They were already targeting waterbenders and only "capturing" them because it's a Nick show and can't be all genocide all the time.
Except Katara's mom wasn't captured, she got killed. Some time after Hama's escape, their policy changed from capture to take no prisoners.
>Some time after Hama's escape, their policy changed from capture to take no prisoners.
How do you know?
Deduction, my dear anon:
Hama was captured. Then later, Katara's mom Kya was not captured, she was killed in her own igloo. Both events are shown in the same episode, so it's easy to go double check if you don't wanna take my word for it.
And what do we know happened between Hama's capture and Kya's execution? Hama's escape from prison with bloodbending, followed by years of people disappearing at every full moon. Now your average fire nation commoner may not know how the full moon empowers waterbenders, but higher ups in the army definitely do. We see both Commander Zhao and General Iroh acknowledge it during the siege of the North.
It is reasonable to assume that Hama's capture is the event that changed their policy, from capture to execution. Take no water benders prisoner, or they'll frick you up at the next full moon. Hama got Kya killed.
So because someone got killed in a war, you deduce that they must have adopted a take no prisoners policy? That's not deduction, that's induction. It's also stupid.
Only because they explicitly show they did take prisoners before. Hama's story only works if they took prisoners. So why did they stop? Just no reason? Even though there's a logical reason presented for us right there in the text of the show, if we're willing to look for it?
It's superfluous to requirements. People get killed in war all the time, whether prisoners are being taken or not, it doesn't need to be a policy decision.
Sure, but this is a story. In real life, shit happens for no reason all the time. In stories, things get presented to you for a reason. If you see a few dots that are easy to connect, they probably want you to connect them. And this was a show that liked doing that a lot. So I really don't think it's such a reach.
A persuasive reason to take prisoners is to encourage combatants to surrender instead of fighting to the death. Which was a factor for the when Hama was defending the SWT and not a problem when you're targeting one bender in hiding.
The reasoning you use to lay this out can't really stand scrutiny.
-There's no way Hama was just a known serial killer in the Fire Nation for 20+ years pulling TLA version of Hostel. While the Fire Nation just shrugged their shoulders about the actual escaped POW serial killer, but made a point to pass ghost stories that changed the entire nation's military operational dogma. Hell you're suggesting Iroh and Zhao both know about this incident and yet Zhao still invades the NWT on the night of a full moon. Iroh supporting Zuko going into the tribe alone although one night prior.
-Water bending getting stronger during the full moon should be age old wisdom. It's something Katara intuits naturally after around 3 months of practical bending. It should not be a discovery made about an enemy from a prison camp 60+ years on into a war.
-The Southern Raiders episode outright shows the commander of the Southern Raiders changed over time. Hama said the raids she fought in were 60 years ago. It's unfathomable Yon Rha was the commander back then All the way up to 8 years before the show.
-TLA provided a pretty solid reason for the Fire Nation capturing enemy benders as an MO: to detain instead of reincarnating the Avatar. Sure Sozin thought the air bender avatar might have escaped, but the next place they'd expect the benders to show up is a water tribe.
-All this to come back to whether Yon Rha to kills or captures someone isn't up to Yon Rha's personal whims.
I'd sooner entertain the argument Hama's escape, combined with some intelligence there was a water bender in hiding in the SWT: that Yon Rha thought that bender WAS Hama and because she already escaped prison decided kill her upon "discovery".
>I'd sooner entertain the argument Hama's escape, combined with some intelligence there was a water bender in hiding in the SWT: that Yon Rha thought that bender WAS Hama and because she already escaped prison decided kill her upon "discovery".
Isn't that just connecting the same dots in a different way? It still means Hama indirectly got Kya killed.
>Isn't that just connecting the same dots in a different way? It still means Hama indirectly got Kya killed.
Yes, that was me throwing your premise a bone, I'm not saying this is my personal head canon already.
For the record though, yeah, I don't think I can counter all those points, so I'll just concede.
>Both events are shown in the same episode, so it's easy to go double check if you don't wanna take my word for it.
It just hit me that I'm combining Hama's episode and the later Katara/Zuko outting in my head. So two episodes. My bad.
She decided him having to live his pathetic little life would be worse than death.
>A israelite tells you it's wrong to hold any grudges for someone's past behavior
Hmmm...
You realized they killed Jesus right?
He also had enemies.
the buddhist way would have been to do nothing about it, just let him accrue bad karma bro
the buddhist way would have been war
I pray for my enemies because the glory of God means more than my petty grievances.
Yet you have enemies. Or do you mean in the sense that they're your enemies, but you aren't theirs?
God burns people alive forever if they believe in his son slightly the wrong way. All historical Christianity agrees on this.
>All historical Christianity agrees on this.
That doesn't mean this guy has to. Are you complaining he should be more intolerant?
God forgives everyone that repents
Does that include dead people?
nope, repenting is only allowed before death
>For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai.
>
>And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.
>and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain
>And from Lachish Joshua passed unto Eglon, and all Israel with him; and they encamped against it, and fought against it: 10:35 And they took it on that day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein he utterly destroyed that day,
>And Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, to Debir; and fought against it: 10:39 And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining: as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to the king thereof; as he had done also to Libnah, and to her king.
There are like a hundred instances of this lmao
I'm arguing that Christian "forgiveness" is bullshit.
Sorry, I had thought I'd better rephrase that more clearly because I foresaw misinterpretations.
>I'm arguing that Christian "forgiveness" is bullshit.
I like my arguments a little more practical. If a Christian is behaving ethically and likely to continue doing so then there's little value in b***hing about their beliefs.
They believe, they just don't follow his instructions to the letter, many who claim themselves to be of religious faith rarely do. As far as these people are concerned, as long as you enter a house of worship for a few hours per week or whatever and maybe study some religious texts, you can pretty much give yourself an excuse to go and do whatever you want, sin in any way you want. And then you have the truly wicked who uses religion to manipulate others into overlooking serious transgressions, like sexual abuse of women and minors.
He had several enemies since the day he was born
I THINK THE Y7 RATING HAD A LOT MORE TO DO WITH KATARA'S PACIFISM THAN ANY TRADITION OF EASTERN, WESTERN, THEOLOGICAL PHILIOSOPHY TBQH
>Rabbi Yeshua said, That if you let people walk all over you then you win and sheeeit.
Christcuck.
"Turning the other cheek" was always about not haranguing yourself over petty shit that doesn't matter, not letting your enemies conquer you
No, it was always about letting your enemies conquer you like a good goyim.
Read a book gay
I have, that's why I don't listen to rabbi yeshua.
Marvel's Thor does not count
Imagine being so unable to cope that this is all you can muster.
Cast not pearls before swine
Oy vey.
People without enemies don't get nailed to crosses.
Kek
forgiveness is cool, but you are fallible as a human too, he could be a threat in the future, only god has to forgive, as he knows when it's genuine, he'll be as forgiving to you both. this world is one laden with evil, but it's not the only one.
>forgiveness bad, revenge good
>morality is fake, only pragmatic realpolitik matters
bad, revenge good
This unironically.
>makes the whole world blind
No actually. But forgiveness does make you blind.
Katara fricking Pun-Pun'd his ass. But it literally doesn't matter anyway. Fricking, a week later the entire Fire Nation is totally forgiven of everything they had done for the past 100 wienersucking years of total war. So why should she kill the guy? Why stop with him?
If they really wanted to tie it all together Katara would admit that Aang's search for pacifism inspired her and gave her the reason to not kill the guy. But you know, these stories gotta get wrapped up on time for story boards and VA's and animators and also money stuff and so yeah. They aren't exactly masterworks. You get what you get and debating why Katara did or did not do something is a fools errand. 10 different writers with 20 different answers.
>Fricking, a week later the entire Fire Nation is totally forgiven of everything they had done for the past 100 wienersucking years of total war.
Source?
Reminder, unlike almost any actual war ever, the 100 year war ended because the spiritual leader of the planet took down the political leader of one faction, and his successor unilaterally stopped burning down half the planet and took everyone home except for all the half breeds born in the colonies (which took some more spiritual leader politicking to sort out).
The Fire Nation had essentially WON. There was no longer any real, concerted military opposition. It would've taken years, made decades, to mop up the rest of the Earth Kingdom armies (depending on how much of the nation they actually burned down) and to break down the Northern Water Tribe, but otherwise that was it. There was no way to beat them on the battlefield any longer. The Fire Nation wasn't forgiven, there was just basically nothing anyone could do any more so it was lucky a leadership change completely reversed 100 years of foreign policy and decided to play nice again.
Oh what's that? The Earth Kingdom isn't satisfied with the overwhelmingly power foreign army just leaving, whatever reparations Zuko handed out, and having to put up with some of its territory becoming independent? What are they gonna do about it? Complain the Avatar? Get him to go beat up the Fire Nation some more? Maybe run a war crimes tribunal? What power do they have to enforce any of that? Hell, Zuko probably has his hands full preventing his military leaders from throwing a fit every weak over this to begin with.
The rest of the world should, practically, be fricking thankful this ridiculous turnabout happened and not try to rock the boat too hard demanding what they can't possibly make happen.
>The higher path is forgiveness.
Yes.
>It's what Jesus would do.
Irrelevant to Katara.
>Have no enemies.
We get it, you like Vinland Saga.
True but not relevant to Katara or this thread.
>Actually in certain Asian ethical systems I think revenge is said to be a GOOD thing.
Source: "It was revealed to me in a dream."
Incorrect.
AU where the Southern Water Tribe kills Joshua of Nazareth when?
Why do people act like only the American conservatives are religious?
It's election season.
Revenge and Justice are not necessarily mutually incompatible. Is it right that bastard probably died of old age on his farm without any punishment?
>without any punishment
The guy is unmarried into his middle age and still lives with his abusive mother. That shit is fricking torture.
He died alone and miserable. He may have been alive into his 80s, but he would have had nothing to show for it, no children, no wife, nothing.
I could see Zuko, on Katara's insistence once he becomes firelord, stripping him off all honors, military titles and pension
then let him persist in pure lonely shame
Aye. But we are but flawed, mortal men. We try our best even though sometimes we fall short.
I see the drawback of revenge as mainly a problem of escalation. They take your eyes, so you take theirs, then they take your tooth for their last eye, then you take their tooth for your tooth and that continues until no parts are left. If you did kill the murderer then maybe the murderers relative will kill you. Then maybe your relative will kill them. I don't think revenge is bad per se but I think any avenger should accept they're digging a grave for two.
Think of a pillager. They might kill your spouse but expect you to forgive them for their murder as they forcefully marry you. I would kill them even if I'd died in the process. Vengeance doesn't bring back the life lost but forgiveness enables a might is right mentality to blossom. Pillagers don't benefit from war without forgiveness. If the world is populated by oppressors then it deserves to go blind.
>It's what Jesus would do. Have no enemies.
But Jesus *did* have enemies. They killed him.
Refusing to retaliate against wrongdoing committed against you doesn't mean that you have no enemies.
most conservatives aren't christian.
No true Scotsman is politically conservative.
Forgiveness is for when the other person has changed and made amends. It is not unconditional. Enough with the fetishization of martyrdom.
Forgiveness doesn't require amends or any other input from the person being forgiven, it's your call not theirs. It has nothing to do with martyrdom.
>Forgiveness doesn't require amends
Then you're not being the bigger man. You're encouraging more crimes by not imposing any kind of punishment. It'd be like refusing to punish a thief who stole billions of dollars, and you don't even ask him to give the money back. Guess what, he's gonna do it again.
Forgiveness is, as someone quoted from the dictionary up-thread, giving up feelings resentment or claims to requital OR releasing from legal penalties of an offense. You can do the former without doing the latter.
I miscommunicated what I meant to say. People who offer forgiveness unconditionally do so because they want to show everyone how kind and above everything they are. They make themselves into gracious (pseudo)martyrs.
People forget the world used to revolve around revenge. Still does, really. Eye for an eye is a strong policy to ensure any wrong not only will be met with retaliation but that everyone can count on it so they shouldn't start none. But as has been pointed out it's not great at keeping the peace long term. Because now not only do people who seek revenge get to keep causing violent problems which will cause more violent problems, you'll find other people pressuring them to do so because otherwise they're doing something wrong.
Imagine a reverse situation to Katara. Imagine she was more practical and level headed, and realized going off to chase some random officer deep in enemy territory was a frick stupid idea. And everyone was still peer pressuring her to do it. To waste time and endanger their position because she needed to show the world she can correct any wrong done to her and make sure they won't try again. Because that's what's Right and Necessary and she's a coward and evil to think otherwise.
Societies spend ages trying to make sure they don't get dragged into unending feuds, and the idolization of forgiveness is part of that. It's not just some saturday morning cartoon moral, the practical point of it is to get the wronged parties to go "we won't try to get revenge and cause problems" and have that be lauded as a Just and Morally Upright. Forgiveness as a policy allows for the formation of political and social alliances that might have otherwise been impossible because some blood feud called upon people to fight other people pointlessly.
Eye for an eye was actually invented to prevent blood feuds.
The chinese had the right of it, someone looks at your girl, wipe out their bloodline to the third generation.
You enemies can't take revenge if they are all dead.
Their friends can though
Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. You can’t perpetuate cycles of violence and revenge since that just leads to dead ends all over the place.
There’s a stupid quote from that Cawadooty black ops zombie mode: “forgive your enemies, but remember their names”.
Vengeance is not a virtue.
>You can’t perpetuate cycles of violence and revenge since that just leads to dead ends all over the place.
The same people who filled your mind with this propaganda, live in gated communities and call the cops on any street goer.
Recognize that violence is the superior authority through which all other authority is derived, and that this idea of forgiveness is a slave morality meant to keep the oppressed from resisting their oppressors.
I suppose my main point would be "violence is a tool to be used sparingly".
You can't blindly swing a machete at people and expect them to listen to your message.
>Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind
Eye for no eye just makes YOU blind, moron.
forgiveness is given to those who earn it