The Martha scene is a litmus tests to whether someone can follow blatant themes and subtexts
The Martha scene is a litmus tests to whether someone can follow blatant themes and subtexts
The Martha scene is a litmus tests to whether someone can follow blatant themes and subtexts
We could follow them, they're just shit.
that's fine if you think that, but a majority of people did not understand it
Everyone understood it. It’s just shit.
>it's Shit because it JUST IS OK??
How about its shit because over the course of the movie batman's view isn't gradually changed, it just all occurs in one moment, that moment could have been 5min in and it wouldn't have mattered.
>because over the course of the movie batman's view isn't gradually changed, it just all occurs in one moment
But that is wrong. Batman only changes his ways right at the end of the movie when Superman have died, not during the "Martha" moment.
There are even some people that complain that Batman should have magically stopped killing right after that moment because otherwise shit makes no sense according to them.
They understand it perfectly fine, it's just a mess of contradictory ideas 'solved' by identical names of the mothers. But that's not the actual problem, the actual problem is that Superman isn't actually Superman and Batman isn't actually Batman in Snyder's films, they are twisted and mutated amalgamations of themselves and the setup for why these versions are different is paper thin.
"Martha" is the punchline to the unfunny joke Snyder told.
>They understand it perfectly fine
Midwits always do overestimate themselves, lol.
>Superman isn't actually Superman and Batman isn't actually Batman
>t. comicshitter
Opinion discarded.
>>t. comicshitter
If you shit on source material you can never again b***h when Hollywood blackwashes a character
The problem with discussing about the source material when it comes to comic books, specially DC's comic books, is that there are various different takes on the same character, and i am not talking about non-canon wild recreations.
>is that there are various different takes on the same character,
Yeah but at the core they all have similarities or you can base them on very specific versions instead of the shit movie one that was easily a standard deviation away from normal
There is no fricking core. The original Superman was a wienery and angry vigilante that used his super strength to intimidate and manhandle gangsters, corrupt politicians, and wife beaters. He'd wreck shit without a care and sometimes would straight up throw people to their certain doom. The original Batman was pretty much The Shadow, but with a gothic flair. He would carry guns and would kill henchmen without so much of a thought. Meanwhile Wonder Woman, that the comics started to portray as the pragmatic killer in opposition to Superman and Batman current characterizations as the no-killing idealists, was at the time the no-killing idealist who always found creative ways to take out the bad guys.
So no the core is always changing as well. Frick, Superman in the 50s became a boy scout and a paternalistic figure meant to teach the kids how to well behave thanks to the radio show influence. The same Superman that before was scaring people and throwing officials like ragdolls.
whats that? after dozens of different writers and runs, something beyond simple 2D characters developed from simple 2D characters? wow that's amazing.
You talk as if the "modern" comics were any better than the starting runs. Trust me, they were not.
or as if over the literal century between the original creation of the characters and now, they've gone in dozens of different directions, some great, some not so great, some bad. but at some point the characters crystalized into something generally good.
and then zack snyder came up with a really bad reinterpretation of the characters.
>but at some point the characters crystalized into something generally good.
They didn't.
What you get is a messy reboot, some somewhat decent character building, contradictions made by several writers some purist fanboys because the character isn't anymore like how they grew up with and some because they aren't familiar with the character at all, and then a bunch of dumb cross-overs that end in a new messy reboot because readers lost their interest. Rinse and repeat. DC is constantly chasing that high they experience back during the 40-60s,
>The original Superman was a wienery and angry vigilante that used his super strength to intimidate and manhandle gangsters, corrupt politicians, and wife beaters. He'd wreck shit without a care and sometimes would straight up throw people to their certain doom. The original Batman was pretty much The Shadow, but with a gothic flair. He would carry guns and would kill henchmen without so much of a thought.
WHY THE FRICK ARE YOU BRINGING UP GOLDEN AGE SHIT, are you moronic?
Because they were good comics and because it is pertinent.
Even the characterizations they created during the silver age was discarded by the 80s, and the characterizations they created during the "modern" age was discarded by the 2000s because the editors were becoming nostalgic for the silver age characterizations, and then the retro-silver age characterizations was discarded by the 2010s because editors found their messy mischaracterizations to not be working. Oh, and the 2010s rebooted characterizations were discarded by the 2020s because now editors were nostalgic for the not-so modern age characterizations from the 80-90s. Even that was short lived because now editors are all in on modern "diverse" characters that they are trying to push unto readers.
Trust me, there is no one more knowledge about DC awful comics and i wish i hadn't wasted so much time reading them. Eventually you start to see that 70% of the DC canon is nothing but awful fanfic and that the original comics was the best of them. The whole thing is nothing but editors and writers acting like awful fanboys and tripping over themselves trying to reinvent the wheel.
>Because they were good comics
They really weren't, they were better than what was at the time but not over all, Superman is over 50 years of refinement.
They were and you've a supremely shit taste.
Superman didn't have 50 years of refinement. He had 50 years of remakes upon remakes upon remakes that turned him into a fossil. No one knows what they want out of Superman anymore but everybody have their own idea what he should like which always end up in overall disappointment.
Superman must be one of most often reboot IP i know.
You missed the part where he’s never read any of them, he’s just parroting what he’s seen said/posted.
repeating digits confirm
>people mock and laugh at the scene
>y-you didn't understand it!
fpbp
frick snyder.
>SON OF SUN AND KNIGHT OF NIGHT
Does Snyder have the brain of a fricking 14 year old or something?
blatant subtext
Explain it for us morons
>OH GOD OUR MOMMYS HAVE THE SAME NAME, WE SHOULD TOTALLY BE FRIENDS NOW
Batman does not kill
batman killed my sense of fun
The first Batman 1989 movie he literally throws a guy down a stair well to his death using only his legs, then punches the Joker off the building (intent) which ultimately lead to his death, not to mention he shot at the joker in the street using the Batwing guns. He inadvertently kills in other movies. Penquin in Batman Returns, Two-Face in Batman Forever, Ras Al Ghul in Batman Begins....
The "no kill" rule is not canon. It was just popularized by Nolan's films and only naive man-children defend it.
Not only that, but he assaulted a person with glasses. Might be the most ruthless Batman put on screen.
He’s realizing that he has become the exact thing that led him to be Batman to begin with. It’s not a difficult premise and has nothing to do with their mommies having the same name.
it has everything to do with them because that fact blew the writer's mind and he just had to hinge everything on this little coincidence
and so he bent everything out of shape just to fit it in and Snyder couldn't straighten it up with his a awkward, idiotic direction, because how could he, he's incompetent
just because the core idea is sound doesn't mean the scene is not a laughable, unintentional comedy
>and subtexts
subtexts are never blatant, it's always some dumb shit never stated outright anywhere that the director has to explain for anyone to even see it
>yes you can see by the angles and framing in these few shots that the whole storyline is actually an allegorical statement on the oppression of women during the suffrage movement blended with a nonjudgmental statement about teetotalers and how that affected women's suffrage
if it's not clear and obvious from the movie it doesn't exist in the damn movie and I'm sick to death of subtexts and subtext gays
>if it's not clear and obvious from the movie it doesn't exist in the damn movie
this
Tony Soprano did not fricking die because it was not shown
He died because the entire episode is basically nothing but him talking to people about how you never see it coming, how you’ll be dead before you even realize, you won’t even hear it.
This “clark did the needful” is just mental gymnastics that plays out as clark being a cold manipulator.
You're just low IQ
I know writers who use subtext and they're all cowards.
Truth
Zack is a literal sub-90 IQ chad moron
Snydershills could easily dismiss this shit with "he didn't write it" but they insist on not only defending it but claiming it's actually super smart
I agree, what are some other scenes of this nature? The part in Drive where he puts on the rubber mask?
>The Martha scene is a litmus test
no it fricking isn't, it's a cheap way to make the fight scene they stole from Dark Knight Returns (where Bruce fakes his own death to lose a fight he never had any chance of winning) work in a storyline where Superman dies (for some stupid reason) with some buyable ending to it
It wasn't bad and it's funny both their moms have the same name but it's given way too much fricking weight in a movie that has events whose weight is stripped by the trinity just having fricking met
this was a stupid ass movie that makes no sense, crams way too many storylines together, and spends too much time having to justify its decisions
>this was a stupid ass movie that makes no sense, crams way too many storylines together, and spends too much time having to justify its decisions
yeah
well
i still love it though
>didn't have a chance of winning
He does win it, he could've killed Superman right then and there but it was never his intention. How dumb are Snydershills?
>How dumb are Snydershills?
what about that post made you think I was a snydershill? especially when the post ends with
>this was a stupid ass movie that makes no sense, crams way too many storylines together, and spends too much time having to justify its decisions
>He does win it, he could've killed Superman right then and there
>the fight scene they stole from Dark Knight Returns (where Bruce fakes his own death to lose a fight he never had any chance of winning)
you really need to work on your reading comprehension mate
Superman could have killed Batman at literally any point in TDKR but he just doesn't. He could have just blown Batman's head off instead of heat visioning "where" in the grass.
The fight between Batman and Superman is what TDKR is famous for but it's the worst part of the comic.
>no it fricking isn't, it's a cheap way to make the fight scene they stole from Dark Knight Returns
It is literally the "Rosebud" moment of the movie.
>where Bruce fakes his own death to lose a fight he never had any chance of winning
He wins the fight before faking his own death.
That comic was garbage.
This scene was planned by the same guy who wrote Rise of Skywalker, there’s not much to get
>blatant subtexts
Please, tell us more of these blatant subtexts.
>all these brainlets itt thinking its about the names
in that moment batman realizes superman is not just some alien c**t but a human who loves his mom, the name just grabs batman's attention
there, spoonfed for you morons
Oh, NOW I see. Thanks.
sarcasm is not enough to hide the smoothness of your brain
I'll hide the smoothness of my big wiener in your ass ya gay
I'm gonna make you my girlfriend.
Why didn't Superman just go save Martha and then go find Lex? Why did he let Lex monologue to him about nothing instead of destroying the Doomsday before he was birthed?
WHY DID YOU SAY THE NAME
>says his mother's first name rather just saying mom
Lmao
its not a subtext if its slathered on your face
this """realisation""" is moronic
this isn't high concept it is stupid and embarrassing
WHAT SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED is Superman gasp "Lex... has... my... mother!"
and this snaps Batman out of it
The problem is the movie spent too much time trying to force wayne as a psychotic moron. Also the idea clark would “fight” bruce at all is just pathetic. Just pinch the useless suit of armor until bruce is ready to talk.
It made sense in Dark Knight Returns, putting in any other contexts makes it all moronic.
In DKR most of the “fight” is clark noting how pointless it is for Bruce to even try.
Snyder, of course, didn’t like this and wanted Bruce and Clark to actually try.
>Snyder, of course, didn’t like this and wanted Bruce and Clark to actually try.
And its kino, superman "he's le holding le back all the time" wienersuckers btfo, have actual stakes and danger
scarring his face with the spear while taunting him was gigakino
>And its movie
Bruh, even in the snyderverse clark is strong enough to just liquefy every ounce of Bruce in his stupid little suit of armor with one hit. Hell, more than once that should’ve happened. But snyder kinda forgets that bruce is just a man, and being encased in metal doesn’t suddenly make it possible for a human being to survive sudden acceleration and stopping.
Oh yeah man, Batman after 20 years in gotham with a batmobile armed with chainguns shouldnt be smart enough figure out a metal armor with shock absorption for a kryptonian that flies through buildings like paper
THATS the part where your belief cant be suspended for capeshit, humans designed specialist sci-fi suits that allow them to combat superhumans
>muh shock absorption
Handwave. Might as well be star trek level technobabble for how far between the reality of shock absorption and what can fit in a suit of tin.
hyperbole, with a blatant subtext of seething and autism
>there isn’t much shock that can be absorbed between a persons’s skin and a suit of armor
This is not hyperbole. Even Kevlar “works” by using how soft and squishy human bodies are to distribute small points of “shock.”
But hey, you’re saying bruce wayne developed a suit of armor that is basically magic. Of course you don’t know anything about physics.
>Caring about realistic physics in capeshit
can i get your opinion on the molecular biology required for zod to shoot a plasma ray out of his eyes capable of cutting through skyscraper foundations? How about the levels of torque and traction on the batmobile wheels allowing it to maneuver how it did in the chase? Ooh, can you switch to marvel and explain the physics of a material like vibranium thats both a god stopping shock absorber yet also able to ricochet off of concrete walls?
>oh man this fight is so deep it man vs literally god
>oh but the man has magical armor
>and knows all the gods weaknesses
>and can survive basically anything the god can do to him
See where im going here? bruce doesn’t survive because he’s smart or clever, he survives because he’s able to switch places with a CGI stunt double IRL whenever something happens that would’ve killed him.
>if the technology surpasses the bounds of my understanding, its magic
>oh, im also gonna just discard the story happening where bruce does detective work to found out the god's weaknesses and battle techniques
brainlet behavior
>oh its okay because "man" stole some alien tech to make his armor so he could fight "god."
you're not helping the scene, your case, or anything.
>fantasy man does fantasy feats to fantasy foe
>yfw
thanks for pointing out yet another way that the "man vs god" theme is undermined.
how?
The blatant theme "man vs god" is expanded with the subtext that it's actually "man vs mortal man who's been projected onto as a god like being"
this then progresses through the story through "man trains and develops unique technology to defeat godlike mortal man"
no where across the dceu were the kryptonians shown to be infallible or even indestructable or even unbeatable. Humans already beat them in MoS. The movie literally hammers this in in the fricking trailer with the "FALSE GOD" graffiti.
Wonder woman literally brings ACTUAL gods into the canon.
stop being a brainlet. Its david vs goliath you stupid motherfricker.
see
the more you describe and elaborate on the scene, the less impact it has. you're working hard to get to points most people automatically arrived at.
I defend BVS because I think it's underrated but I also do think one fair criticism is that Snyder was so obsessed with DKR that he copypasted it into the film without acknowledging context. DKR is two characters with decades of continuity together being forced into a final confrontation, in BVS they've just met. In DKR Batman knows he can't really win so he arranges the perfect death for himself, BVS Batman plans to win the whole time. It's just an awkward fit. And the line about how their parents raised them foreshadowed the Martha bit but still makes a hell of a lot more sense if the characters actually know each other and are meeting at the extreme ends of their ideologies.
It was an homage they needed to resist the urge to make because as cool as it was to see in live action it was cribbed from a book with a completely different tone and direction. Better to just come up with something entirely original for the film
>tranimegay loves snyder
makes sense, both fanbases consist of teenage edgelords who think sombre music makes a scene deep
You failed the understand BvS. Batman never really planned to win.
People get the subtext, batman sees superman as an alien, when he finds out superman has mother his mind changes.
Its stupid for 2 reasons, first that the film tries to make itself seem smarter than it is by the fact that their mothers names are the same. Second, no one calls their mother by their first name, why would superman call his mother "Martha"? It confuses batman, and its only clarified to him when Lois says that its his mothers name.
Its also stupid in the greater sense because this moment isn't really built up to in the film, its the first time batman is challenged on this idea.
He specifically called his mom Martha because he knew Bruce Wayne was Batman and was desperately trying to appeal to his humanity FRICKING moronS
Why does Clark know batman is Bruce Wayne and how his parents died?
>Why does Clark know batman is Bruce Wayne and how his parents died?
He learned Bruce was Batman at Lex's party and if you look up Bruce Wayne (not hard for a reporter) his parents murder is one of the first things you'll come across
>superman's appeal to batman is useless
No it isn't. Batman was a second away from killing him but dropping that name made him stop
Saying "save my mother" would have also triggered batman, and been a lot less stupid, it also wouldn't have just confused him.
Genuinely give me one reason why saying "You have to save my mother" wouldn't have been better.
At that point, bruce is still psychotivally convinced that clark is just an alien with an alien mother.
The reason the scene is dumb is because there’s literally no other way for it to work. bruce is psychotic and suddenly does no research into anything and clark is manipulative.
>Saying "save my mother" would have also triggered batman
Not nearly to the extent of hearing him say "you're letting him kill Martha". That's literally Bruce's worst fear.
What's disingenuous about it? He's genuinely telling him that he's letting Lex kill Martha. You could argue that it's a bit manipulative I suppose but the man was literally about to be murdered wtf was he supposed to do?
>what’s manipulative/disingenuous about calling your bother by her first name because you know it’s also the name of the mother of the guy trying to kill you
I guess this is too nuanced for an ESL.
I have blue eyes homosexual so try again. And yes please explain what's disingenuous about it. I already conceded it's a bit manipulative but he's genuinely pleading for her life and trying to get through to Bruce so stop dodging and explain.
Yea, we all know some pajeets have some white DNA
Do they have blue eyes too? Guarantee I'm whiter than you Paco. Come clean my toilets you subhuman swarthoid.
>Guarantee I'm whiter than you Paco.
Congratulations, rabbi
Kek so I've gone from brown to israeli? Keep trying I guess I'm sure one of these shots in the dark will eventually hit you pathetic homosexual. Also thanks for inadvertently admitting you're a brown eyed swarthy Hispanic.
Or someone else decided to pop in and make fun of you. Israelis are brown too tho.
Good thing I'm not Israeli then.
Yeah, we know, you’re Indian.
>you’re Indian
Dude, I really hope you aren't white, rather some self-hating brown person, because that play is the laziest, most pathetic thing I see on here.
Why do you think you can save face on Cinemaphile, rajesh? Because you’re ESL.
>ESL
Reminder
I didn't expect a slavic country to be there
>we're so smart we need to learn the language of our masters
lol
>of course my country isn't on here
also lol
>of course my country isn't on here
Mine is. Cope and seethe, 2nd worlder (American).
you know its old world, new world, third world, right?
America is definitely thirld world then. I mean, really ice zombie president you've got there. How's the food (when it isn't straight up killing you)? Obesity rate? Population replacement? Yeah, cool country, bud.
lol, okay thridie, whatever you say.
please keep practicing the language of your masters.
>of your masters
Kek. Which are? Your country doesn't even have a coherent ethnic makeup. Only reason it's important at all is because the City of London moved there from Britain because they were afraid of invading Germans. If anything, Brits would be the masters.
Gee, i don't know my ESL friend, what was the language you had to learn so anyone would hear or care about anything you could have to say?
Kek. Nice try dodging the question.
There's no dodge, my ENGLISH as a SECOND LANGUAGE friend. Did you not know what that acronym stood for?
Whose language is it though? Who are the people? Where do they originate from? What's their ethnicity? Their tribe?
doesn't really matter if they're wearing a little hat or not, you still had to learn the language they decided would be the standard for all their servants.
>all this cope over only speaking one language
Kek
I don't know man, despite the meme, people who speak multiple languages are rarely, if ever, intelligent. the geniuses of every nation are always monolingual.
almost like there's ya know, limits to human capacity and having twice the vocabulary and grammatical structure for thought isn't conducive to intelligence.
>the geniuses of every nation are always monolingual
I don't think that can be said in the age of globohomo.
well, prime minister of israel claims to have an IQ of 180.
how many languages does he speak?
Bibi? 1.5? Since he does address Americans in English a lot and since I want to beat your silly argument more than make a joke, I'll have to say at least 2. I don't know. Israel has an average IQ of like 90 though.
You got me dude I'm an Indian with blue eyes. Brb gonna go shit in the street.
Why are you proud of being descended from a colonizer’s rape baby?
How did T20 sneak his way up to middle management anyway?
And why are they keeping my boy A17 down like that? Are they afraid of his inventions?
it's all nepotism man
This guy cries for his mommy all day. Mommy milky, mommy milky.
Because he met Bruce at Lex's party and caught him scheming with Alfred. He knew how his parents died because he's a reporter and would've looked into Bruce's history once he found out he was Batman.
It's not about him knowing who Superman's mom is. Clark knew that the name "Martha" would be a trigger for him and would buy some time to hopefully reason with him before the spear got plunged through his heart.
So snyderverse clark is manipulative and disingenuous. Great characterization.
>Clark knew that the name "Martha" would be a trigger for him
This is the most moronic thing I've ever read, to the point you should be wearing a helmet at all times for your own safety. It never shows supes looking up Wayne's past but goes out of its way to show the grave again. He's just appealing to save his own mom and it happens that's batman's mom's name too.
That's literally moronic, because batman has no clue who superman's mother is. And in the film superman's appeal to batman is useless, as its only when Lois clarifies to batman that its his mothers name that batman backs down.
That's also moronic because it paints superman as a weird manipulator. Wouldn't it have been much more better for superman to actually be genuine.
That's fricking dumb you drooling spastic. Saying Mom would appeal to his humanity more because everyone has a mother.
The criminals Batman killed also had mothers.
The point isn't that both of them have mothers, or that that their mothers share the same name. Is that "Martha" was Batman's "Rosebud". It was the thing that finally made him wake up.
>It was the thing that finally made him wake up.
so we can add citizen kane to the list of things snydergays don't understand?
Except Batman already knew he had a mother and clearly didn't give a shit you dumbass homosexual. Right before that moment he says
>I bet your parents taught you that you mean something, that you're here for a reason
Clark knew, or at least hoped, that the name "Martha" would snap Bruce out of it.
I'm not even sure whether he did it on purpse but the one putting it in context was Lois, who also very much mattered in the interaction.
This reminds me that Snyder wanted to pull some Oedipus complex shit where Bruce would end up fricking Lois because she reminds him somewhat of his own mom. He still did this by making Wonder Woman dress as her.
Came here looking for this image. Thanks, saved.
>that lensflare
Why doesn’t Batman just make a kryptonite machine gun and just gun him down? It’s clear in this movie that Batman stops giving a shit about his morals if he deems the threat large enough.
The subtext misses the point when they hit you over the head with it, bud
Look at the subtle religious imagery. Snyder fans would be happy.
another bait thread where snydergays make hyperbolic statements and get mad over regular Cinemaphile posters
Getting real tired of your bullshit snydergays, why don't you buy an ad or something
I remember bullying a snydergay sometime back, he was so absolutely blown the frick out I didn't see a snyder thread on the catalog for two weeks
>saying your mothers first name with your dying breath
why did everyone in this movie act like a whiny teenager
Because of who made it.
Terrio mogs all of you. Cope and seethe, midwit redditors.
yikes, imagine using "university graduate" as an appeal to authority. i imagine only a teenager or NEET would do something so shallow
He's white and in his mid-forties, so it counts.
>He's white
which is more than can be said for snydergays
>1 billion Indians
>have internet access
Real good point there, chief. But hey, if Snyder majorly fricks up Rebel Moon I'll switch to team anti-Snyder, no worries.
>didn't even watch the webm out of embarrassment
most of them are sudacas
Didn't bother watching it, makes no difference to me. Did you know we (whites) are a global minority with the majority of our nations being at below replacement fertility while our dear elected officials invite in millions upon millions of migrants? Anyway, stop being stupid, Snyder made some genuine kino with BvS but it's quite likely he's turned full on boomer at this point.
bvs isn't the worst film of all time but i wish snydergays weren't so obnoxious about it being "kino" or whatever. it was a slightly above average capeshit by virtue of sheer novelty, and that's it
Nah, it's genuinely good. Man of Steel was good as well, Justice League got dragged down by the backyard reshoots he hastily added, ugly stuff. Also, the reactionary terrorists in the beginning being defeated by Miss Israel Wonder Woman was big time cringe but bearable overall.
https://thesymbolicworld.com/2020/08/24/the-symbolic-structure-of-movies-batman-v-superman-2016-part-i/
https://thesymbolicworld.com/2020/10/05/the-symbolic-structure-of-movies-batman-v-superman-2016-part-ii/
why does batman and superman have the same mom
are they brothers
no but they have the same wife (lois lane). in snyder's original script, batman cucks superman after he dies.
I haven't seen that flick, but doesn't Superman know who Batman is thanks to his x-ray vision?
If so, he'd know the name of Batman's mother.
superman is a dumbass in the movie
M A R T H A
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A
I’ll defend Man of Steel but this movie was just a joke. Fricking Jesse Eiseinberg as Lex Luthor
>No, you can't have a israeli silicon valley mogul with daddy issues as your villain!
thats fine, but why is he also a fricking skinny twink manlet
lex's whole complex is that he's supposed to the apex of man and that he worked for it, unlike supes who is just naturally gifted
If it works it works.
Thanks
OP is right and all of you midwits got filtered.
In this version when the Waynes get accosted bv Joe Chill Thomas Wayne has the option to submit and choose non-violence and he instead chooses to clench his fist and assault Joe. This leads to the death of him and Martha and in his dying breath he utters her name in regret. By trying to eliminate Superman Bruce is choosing violence and thus repeating his father's mistake and hearing the name Martha makes him recall his father's regret. He then snaps out of his rage and avoids the fate that doomed his parents.
People fight, kill and die for no reason at all, every single day, without communication or listening to the other side. No one is immune from being on the receiving end of such violence, or being a perpetrator for that matter.
Did everyone forget Lex deceived and coerced them both?
>did everyone forget that both clark and bruce had zero actual agency in the movie and literally did exactly what the mastermind wanted them to do at all times with zero introspection or questioning
no, people point that out all the time.
Good question what kind of agency they would have in the constraints that Lex imposed on them. However Lex held Clark's mother at gunpoint with a ticking clock, what kind of agency would anyone have? Bruce was manipulated also with the wheelchair guy and a few other things.
you realize, of course, the manipulation you just pointed out started far earlier, right?
Effective manipulation and conditioning happens overtime, it's not a one-off event and it really can't be. Solutions to defeat Lex's plans before they culminated in the kidnapping are probably possible but Michael Cera was always one step ahead and there wasn't anything unreasonable about his conspiracy or some wide open plot hole. The media and the public opinion helped shape Bruce's hostility and Lex took advantage of that and compounded it. There's millions of people protesting "alien go home!" without Lex whispering in their ear, it wasn't an unpopular idea to be aggresive to Clark, on the contrary. I've seen the film a few times, not recently but still I'm sure the plot makes sense. Hindsight is 20/20 but when you're watching the film I doubt you'd be scrutinizing them both. I'll have to rewatch it to continue arguing the point because the devil is in the details and all that. If you think I've missed something tell me.
So, all you've said is
>Yes bruce had clark have no agency in the entire movie. they mindlessly accept the manipulation they are fed by the spastic moron that is lex luthor as played by jessie eisenberg.
Not sure if you're baiting or not I guess you've never been manipulated. You're fortunate guy. Bruce wasn't invited to the kidnapping of Martha and Clark wasn't aware of the private paperwork with wheelchair guy and his whole situation. Neither of them knew Lex was behind the shipping of the green unobtanium to Gotham, read: he handed Bruce the green crystal, and no one knew that. All this talking about this the plot is making me want to rewatch it again, thanks anon.
just because you're easily manipulated and can't think for yourself, hence the reason you're a snydergay, doesn't mean anyone else is.
cool stuff bro
i accept your concession. good talk.
and all you've said is
>just don't get manipulated bro
you don't have an argument. You can't even describe how that not get manipulated would happen.
or, that manipulation over long periods only works on people without any agency.
he brought up three conspiracy plots that were 2-3 degrees of separation from them both individually. They don't know that there's an orchestrator behind the events nor do they have reason nor time to investigate, because the next event occurs by the time the wheelchair exploded it was already too late and it was shielded so he couldn't see it. The burden is on you to solve these problems but tell me how Superman and Batman are supposed to have omniscience and telepathy or better yet post about agency for the fifth time
what you've done is gargled your own ESL cum. a conspiracy isn't manipulation, its orchestrated effort between numerous people.
nonresponsive. later gay
I already accepted your concession earlier. again, good talk. maybe stop trying to defend american movies as a non-american.
What was Lex's plan exactly, this is what i figured:
>he is butthurt that there's a god-like being watching over humanity, so he wants to prove that a human can take him down
>tries to pit Batman against him
>fails so instead he unleashes Doomsday to finish the job
Doomsday was plan A, batman stole the kryptonite so batman vs superman was a side quest to clear loose ends.
Whyyyy so seriousss?
Cuz his parents died in the sewer. Snyder said there was a deleted scene of him doing push ups over his parents corpses and test audiences said it was too dark b/c he looked like he was going down on Martha Wayne.
kino magnifique
How the hell was there anything subtextual about this scene when THEY LITERALLY TELL YOU WHAT'S HAPPENING?
There's nothing subtextual about showing a flashback of Batman's dead mom while Thomas whispers Martha and Lois further clarifying that Clark's mother is named Martha. That's not subtextual! It's the text!
In this universe Thomas Wayne gets the Waynes killed by choosing to fight. This has become a curse for Bruce and made him lose his way and it is in the Martha moment where he finally realizes he's gone down the wrong path.The way Bruce has fallen morally is very human and he previously questions Superman's humanity but it's that very humanity that undoes his curse.
Sorry sweaty, but Zak Snyder simply isn't that intelligent. Cute cope though.
He's probably 130+ but even if he isn't he had Terrio write the important stuff.
If you care about themes, subtext and symbolism you aren't watching capeshit movies.
*ahem*
what if you only like themes, subtext, and symbolism when they're overt, blatant, and indian?
>indian
Lmao. Did some pajeet rape your mom or what's with the obsession?
good morning bloody benchod
but yea, its a meme based on how the most vocal snydergays are pajeets, just totally blown away by seeing something resembling production values serving their completely incompetent style of film.
>based on how the most vocal snydergays are pajeets
But in reality they're Marvel fans, to the point where Feige will directly pander to them.
... those are shills, just because they're also indian doesn't mean they're the same breed as snydergays.
Most of the Snydergays are buffed white dudes, big titty white and black women, and some crazy Muslims. Oh, and hispanics but they generally love any kinds of capeshit.
well, nice to have see some next level delusion and it not be "im acctually a woamn"
Do you want me to show images of how many pajeets are Disney gays? How hard Feige have tried to pander to India?
>how the most vocal snydergays are pajeets
You keep claiming that, but it's not and has never been true.
>i am vocal and i'm from a white third world country therefore
therefore what? you being a polack or some other brand of ESL doesn't remove all the pajeet snydergays from existence.
throwing in with pajeets doesn't help your appearance much either.
>throwing in with pajeets
There's a billion of them. You have no point.
>they generally love any kinds of capeshit
This. Love all that shonen anime/manga stuff too.
so you're aware the vast majority of snydergays are pajeets and you being white, but also ESL, makes you an outlier snydergay.
>so you're aware the vast majority of snydergays are pajeets
This will never be true.
I see, your IQ is so low that you think because you can just not look at any brownoid snydergays, they don't exist.
interesting. in how the internet lends itself to people rejecting the information overload of reality in favor of constructing small, mangable fantasies.
but hey, that's just a low IQ thing.
Show me the legions of Snydejeets that are under your bed.
or you could just observe the webm at
but hey, you're desperate to save face here, so feel free to spam the handful of white instagrams about zack snyder.
I see more hispanics there than anything else. Is that your irrefutable "proof"?
why do ESLs always think they can save face on Cinemaphile?
>Davi
>Thales
>Giuliano
>Thiago
>Eduardo
Do you think these are Indian names or anything close to it?
>makes you an outlier snydergay
Okay? And? It's a good movie and I'm well aware that Snyder is a complicated person.
zack snyder is a moronic person. not sure how you got those words confused.
because we teach ESLs wrong, on purpose, as a joke.
>ESLs
see
see
Yeah, to "beat my silly argument" you'd need to start listing multi-lingual geniuses. You can't. they didn't need to learn other languages, people either learned the language of the genius to interact with him or they got people to translate for them.
no genius, in history, has ever had to learn someone else's language to be recognized. the idea that knowing multiple languages makes you smarter is entirely a israeli psyop, to get people to be proud of having useless garbage in their brain.
Netanyahu is multilingual. And no, I don't need to list shit because times have changed.
>i can't but t-times are d-d-different n-now!
lol. good goy. they've been pushing the "omg s/he speaks 6 languages s/hes a genius" thing for decades.
I'm not for speaking 4 or 5 but your mother tongue + a lingua franca is kind of a given these days. Second worlders (Americans) should compensate by learning Latin.
Or, my servants will learn my language.
seriously man, being bi/multi-lingual just makes you a better servant.
Kek. Unipolarity is over. Better try catching up with the linguas or you won't even be able to practice diplomacy.
yeah... not something I'm ever going to need to do. unlike you, servant.
Kek. Keep coping, double digits IQ.
Bruh, you already know the only language I'll ever need to know. Just like everyone else who's ever going to interact with me.
>it's good to lack ambition
Okay. See how that goes for you.
ambition for what? being a servant?
Becoming literate for one or how about having a seat at the multipolar table of the future.
I already have a stronger grasp of english than you ever will.
Maybe. Besides the point though.
No, it really isn't. I'll always be able to talk/debate circles around anyone who's been forced to learn english later in life, english will always be the dominant language of the planet. I'll be able to understand their half-literate subspeak and respond in turn while they'll struggle with anything more complex than basic orders. that's all by design.
its time to accept the fact you were trained to be my servant.
(You)
I accept, you ever so gracious concession, my shitskin, ESL friend.
Dude, no one is impressed by your 97 IQ ass or your dissolving nation. Cope and seethe.
the difference is, I don't need anyone to be impressed by me. But it does amuse me to watch "people," such as yourself, desperately vie to prove their superiority... on Cinemaphile.
Queer
ESL.
>blatant
>subtext
ESL?
Post your skin.
>blatant
>subtext
lol ok snyderjeet
and the problem isn't that people didn't understand, its that we did and its moronic shit
I can follow themes and subtext. It wasn't subtle. The problem with the Martha scene is that the delivery from the actors is terrible
why did superman refer to his mother by her first name?
if he wanted to clearly communicate with batman the importance of what he had to do he would have said "I have to save my mother!"
this martha thing is so fricking homosexual gay
Because Batman just got done shitting his parents and upbringing moments before, and because Superman knew Batman was actually Bruce Wayne.
the stupidity of this post is so massive it can't possibly be a troll
It wasn't a literal reference, you idiot.
>the stupidity of this post is so massive it can't possibly be a troll
What? You think Batman was unaware that Superman had a mom?
If you value themes and subtexts why the frick are you watching a movie called Batman vs Superman
this thread only proves one thing to me
shitskins love snydershit
So based on this thread the snyder fan understanding is that Superman sets out to manipulate Batman my saying the words "martha" to trigger him, the snyder fan explanation has zero dramatic weight, since its literally just superman wanting to annoy batman.
Yes, its still funny that the fact that superman and batmans mother's name being the same was used in a dramatic moment in a DC film, its really funny in fact.
>the snyder fan explanation has zero dramatic weight
If you ignore that the entire fight is filmed in such a way that it mirrors not only the Wayne murders but also little Bruce fall where he gets to meet the bats inside the cave.
And what does that result in exactly, its the typical Snyder performance.
On superman's part the Snyder fan explanation is no longer a cry of last resort, showing his humanity, its a manipulation attempt, Batman doesn't realise superman's humanity, he just gets a bit annoyed by superman's manipulation attempt.
Now for the record, I don't believe any of that, the intended effect is that superman is showing his humanity when batman is almost killing him, however batman then realises superman's humanity when their mothers have the same name, which is dumb.
Snyder does this thing where it looks like he is doing something profound, but really its just a surface level parallel, something that doesn't have much value in of its self, see Watchmen for prime examples of this.
Being pissy because Superman didn't say "mom" is hilarious.
This is by far the dumbest interpretation of the scene I've read so far. How you came up with all that based on this thread is astounding. Imagine getting filtered this hard by a fricking capeshit movie. Fricking embarrassing.
How is that not the intended interpretation of the scene?
Batman says "you were never a man" then he realises their mothers have the same name and he thinks otherwise.
Burgers:
>always spamming the "I don't think about you at all" Mad Men meme
Also burgers:
>ESL! ESL! ESL! ESL!
absolutely obsessed. What a meme country.
>be ESL
>try to discuss in english
>out yourself
>get upset when people point out how well trained you are to serve US interests.
Stop obsessing and say your daily prayer to St. George Floyd, you israelitewiener mutt.
>talking about the subject at hand is obsession
once you decide to stop trying to save face, its like you don't exist anymore, as far as I'm concerned.
The subject is an irrelevant tangent anyway which is what youre dancing around under the guise of elitism
nah, being ESL is always relevant to praise of zack snyder. as its exclusively morons and ESLs doing it.
kek true. I guess in terms of general discussion it can be annoying for me because I am prone to typos as a druggy.
Holy shit Chang is gonna POP
It’s not that the idea of it is awful, but it’s weirdly scripted and it feels strange that Superman would say “must.., save… Martha”, instead of Mrs Kent. Then Batman growling around like he’s losing his mind just looks goofy. People latch onto it as if the premise is bad, but it’s not. The scene just needs workshopping
hey, sorry I saw your post and I just thought , I really wanted to tell you that)) It's really rare to see girls playing video games haha! I don't know why its a guy thing honestly im like really against misogyny and like ill be the one in the kitchen making sandwiches. We should really play l4f2 sometime its a reall cool zombie game with a lot of scary moments, but don't worry ill be there to protect you 😉 sorry that wasnt flirting I swear Im just trying to be friendly I really like your profile picture sorry was sthat too far? Really sorry im really shy I don't go out much haha add me on skype we should talk more you look really nice and fun xxx
> The Martha scene is a litmus tests to whether someone can follow blatant themes and subtexts
An excellent and visually stunning yet misunderstood movie that was vilified by most critics and some fans. Batman V Superman is a serious movie that presents our childhood heroes in a real world-like environment. The director challenged the viewers to ask themselves”how would the world react if a being like Superman existed?” Of course not everyone would love him. Either some love him or hate him, or fear him. Just like our government-not everyone trusts the government. Some believe the government acts for the good of the people and others believe otherwise.
The heroes also reacted in response to their environments like we all do. Superman obviously felt dejected even though he strove hard to do the right thing. Batman had grown colder and jaded over the past 20 years and sought to destroy Superman, fueled by some experiences in the past. He also dealt roughly with criminals.
Batman v Superman isn’t like the traditional Superhero movies we’re used to: where we see action and fighting every 6 minutes along with one-liners to lighten the mood. No. Although there’s some very good action and subtle humor, you have to pay attention to the dialogues for the movie to make sense since everything’s not spoonfed to you. Therefore, since there was such a departure from the traditional superhero formula, some people hated it. However, there are still some fans, like me, who love the movie very much
Samegay, frick off.
Why are Snydergays so goddamn pretentious?
The project was launched by the last government, but has not yet been approved under the new government’s spending review.
never cry me river you c**t
I believe that we are talking about the theatrical cut over here as If you had seen the ultimate cut you wouldn’t have asked this question.
So, I’ll just cut the chase and come straight to why I defend Batman V Superman and what it gave to us:
The Batman we needed:
Bale was good but Affleck is the definitive Batman. The batman out of the Comic Books. The one who really striked fear into the heart of his enemies. The first scene of Batman is enough to portray what I mean.
The powerful female character:
Gone are the days of “Damsel in Distress”. We’ve got Wonder Woman and she’s kicking some serious butt.
I don't the have the time to go into every stupid claim in the the review (Guardian), but I can ensure that there are not that many loopholes in the movie.
I accept that Dawn of Justice was not perfect, it had it's fault but the fact is that no movie is perfect.
I know that Dawn of Justice is not a perfect movie like 'The Dark Knight' but it easily deserves a rating in the range of 70-80%.
I pity those critics who don't know enough about the DC universe and think that they are 'nerds' just because they have watched 'Man of Steel' and a couple of Marvel movies.
Believe me, this is the superhero movie every comic book fan aches for.
It's definitely worth a watch.
Rave reviews and commercial success were accompanied by industry-wide adulation.
Review all the notes you need to cover for each course.
I normally write two or three pages of notes when reviewing a movie
Today it takes about four assessments, independent review panels and possibly a complaint to the ombudsman to get a fair result.
Still defending this scene? In 2023?
Will forever be a meme
Wait, there’s people that defended this scene? Most people I’ve heard mocked this scene relentlessly
Some people will try anything to get a good review.
The sentence comes as the use of mobile phones to send messages in court is under review.
They said a serious case review would now examine whether they failed.
batman/bruce is supposed to be a master detective. he spends half the movie snooping around. he didn't know superman's mother was also named martha? it's a dumb coincidence.
Snydergays will probably come up with some bullshit about how it’s supposed to be a metaphor for something hacky
The world of movie reviewing is full of people writing about movies written by people they know.
We will continue to collect and review new data to ensure this is happening
Saying "Save Martha!" is in no way natural, and was just made so that Batman would be shocked. Admit this.
We continue to review the situation as we have always done.
Or should we review our assessment procedure?
Why was batman so psychotic
Yet early reviews of the film are poor.
here we see the snydergay attempt to drown out all discussion with spam.
It was the only modern capeshit I enjoyed since the Nolan movies
https://archive.4plebs.org/tv/thread/67453232/#q67454191
Kino
It sucks now because Disney/Marvel is more worried about identity politics, representation, diversity and censorship more than character depth and story.
Like most blockbuster franchises they are. Not all the movies are bad, there are some genuinely great films in there, but a lot of them are overrated. Some people might defend it because its the first time a cinematic universe this big was pulled off successfully, but bigger doesn’t always mean better. These films do have some good qualities like likable and consistent characters, but they also have some consistent flaws.
First of all, the whole point of these movies is to make money. They are made by Disney, so you can’t really expect that much from them. They are pushing more artistic films out of theatres.
Marvel films were actually very new and original when the first one came out.
In 2008 the original Iron Man was released. While largely overshadowed at the time by the two Batman films it was released between, Iron Man actually broke the mold in terms of superhero films. It was self aware. Had a comic accurate costume. Ended with the hero revealing his identity to the public. And had a post credits scene that hinted at the existence of other heroes in the same universe.
the scene would've unironically better if superman said " my mother, save my mother"
then maybe have him say martha after that
And while none of this might seem particularly groundbreaking in 2021, no one had ever seen anything like it in 2008. Back then the X-Men wore black leather. Christopher Nolan was trying to play the idea of a billionaire dressed as a bat 100% straight. Crossover films were the purview of cheap horror franchises. Every superhero hid their identity, no matter how little sense it made. And the last “superhero” film with a post credit scene was Masters of the Universe.
And Iron Man was just the beginning. Avengers was the first superhero crossover film. We’d seen superhero teams before, the X-Men and Fantastic Four, but Avengers gave us a team composed of an alien god, a supersoldier, a nuclear monster, two spies and a man in power armor. Four of whom had their own films.
Overnight the producers went from believing that Superman and Batman should never meet on film because it would be too silly, to falling over themselves to make it happen. We saw a half dozen aborted attempts at a cinematic universe, all because of this one film.
I was today years old when I realized I didn’t like you
A litmus test for idiots that think they're smart
Someday you’ll go far. And I really hope you stay there.
Oops, my bad. I could’ve sworn I was dealing with an adult.
I love what you’ve done with your hair. How do you get it to come out of your nostrils like that?
Remember that time you were saying that thing I didn’t care about? Yeah, that is now.
You’re the reason God created the middle finger.
I’m busy right now, can I ignore you another time?
Oh, you don’t like being treated the way you treat me? That must suck.
I wish I had a flip phone, so I could slam it shut on this conversation.
N’Sync said it best, “BYE, BYE, BYE!”