The way Kirby concieved the mutant problem is not only more nuanced than Claremont's take but more realisitc.
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The way Kirby concieved the mutant problem is not only more nuanced than Claremont's take but more realisitc.
Which is?
Mutants aren't minorities. They're ubermensch. And like most people with more power than sense, they're usually buttholes. The X-Men's mission is to be the exception to the rule.
It's also implied that mutants are created by their parents exposure to radiation.
>Mutants aren't minorities. They're ubermensch
well technically they're a minority of ubermensch. but I agree that the doubling down on the analogy to real minorities was a mistake
>Mutants are created by parents exposure to radiation
I always liked this detail whenever it's been hinted at. Iirc the first class movie has a mention about the sudden increase in mutants being a result of developing nuclear bombs. This explanation would also solve the problem of mutant overload we have in the comics
Are all the Japanese mutants
There's a What If comic about them dropping a Gamma bomb on Japan in WW2 and it goes about how you expect
Let me make it plain
You better make way for the homosexual Superior
>are a minority of the population
>are not a minority
More double-think. All you have to do is give words two meanings and anything can be truth
They have more value than a million humans each, so they are the majority.
Thanks. That was my point; you don't mean the word "minority" to describe population density but as a dogwhistle that indicates value.
>are not a minority of the population
>are considered a minority
Who am I talking about?
That usage of minority refers to ethnic groups. Mutants can come from any ethnic group.
They ARE a minority of the population, that doesn't belong a single minority.
Read a book homie
Americans are so moronic.
They weren't a minority analogy, you pedantic frick.
>LOOK THE DICTIONARY DOESN'T INCLUDE MUTANT POWERS SO YOU'RE WRONG.
lmao
Do you have reading comprehension? They were a minority (blacks, gays, spics) analogy during Claremont. They weren't in the silver age.
The point is that
(you?) is a sperg while everyone else understood what OP meant by minorities.
That really isn't a reply to me toasting the dude who is using actual dictionary definitions to discredit a fictional reality. Next they're gonna show me a physics book and tell me Spider-Man ain't real
The dictionary definition has nothing to do with the literal qualities of mutants. It's used to explain why OP isn't wrong when he says "Mutants aren't minorities (in the silver age)" even though they are minorities in the most basic sense of the word (the smaller number or part). Anyone who's familiar with this franchise would understand that one would use minority in the context of that particular definition that was posted.
>The dictionary definition has nothing to do with the literal qualities of mutants.
I know. That has been my point twice now
That's some major league revisionist history. Beast nearly gets lynched in issue 6.
So?
>Do you have reading comprehension?
These "people" understand perfectly well, they just argue in bad faith 100% of the time. Just tell him to kill himself, it's faster and more appropriate.
gays and israelites, not nigs or spics
I don't think most people find this all that interesting compared to the flawed but still way more relevant and interesting minority metaphor.
>relevant and interesting minority metaphor.
>this is what modern X-gays actually believe
I did kind of like how early mutant powerlevels were kept really down except for a couple guys who were made to be team threats. Really good agility or being able to lift about 5-10lbs with the mind is not exactly on the same level as a FF member or Spidey villain.
Then of course the 80s Claremont and 90s mainstream popularity happened.
nuance
please die centrist
Dilate
Kys troon
>You must be a Nazi or a Commie, nothing else is allowed!!
uck off radical, the sane people are talking
>more realistic
yay! that's what everybody wants from superhero comic books
Marvel became a hit in the 60s because of realism.
In a relative sense, of course. But yeah. Compared to DC's bland heroes, Marvel characters had clear personalities, flaws and all.
https://www.tedagame.com/zak-site/Great-American-Novel/marvel_realism.html
They would have Alphabet agency contacts and mobs of horny fangirls?
Aren't they kind of moving more towards that with the secret club island anyways? Can't really pull the minority card anymore.
They are a minority in the usa you bigot.
Currently they're refugees in a quasi legal ethnostate that they built from scratch. Think Israel without the Apartheid.But they're still being persecuted by human groups and governments who don't recognize Krakoa's sovereignty.
You guys are all wrong mutants aren't a minority group, they're different species the evolution of humans. In universe they don't have the legal protections of actual minorities have and can be discriminated against for being mutants.
They're an allegory for minorities.
They are a minority the same way white women are a minority now
>That usage of
Doublespeak again. The double down is the worst kind of bait. Yawn
Yeah didn't that book go dead after 66 issues and was just reprints for years? And then after Claremont it became the biggest selling book Marvel had?
Do I have to elaborate more on why you're a moron?
Have you read them?
>You're wrong about comics because of this list of animated films.
Oh shit. You're off your mess. This just got intetesting.
Did you finish school? Are you a Black person? Carefully read
10 times and then ask yourself why would a chart of high-grossing films with the fricking Lion King remake at the top be relevant.
I hate how people can't see past the damned metaphor to the point where they seriously think that's the one and only reason why Claremont's X-Men was successful.
>saves comics from obscurity
Nothing personal, bub.
Don't oversell it. It was just a comic that sold well. It didn't "save comics from obscurity".
Marvel was pulled out of their bankruptcy on X-Sales, anon.
Pre-claremont x-men fricking sucks. And yes that is compared to other 60s comics
Mutants are arguably the worst idea Marvel ever had. Too much baggage on racism and victim complexes over the years. If they were going to rip off Doom Patrol, they might as well have gone all in. Guys like Cyclops and Jean should have been science accidents or something similar, just a collection of misfit heroes that had a hard time adjusting to the life
Nah, Doom Patrol was a swipe of Fantastic Four. Negative Man is a recolored Human Torch. Robotman and Thing are orange strongmen who are bitter and go on rampages. Elasti-Girl often stretches body parts rather than grow or shrink.
X-Men wasn't a steal from Doom Patrol, it was a steal from Henry Kuttner's "Baldy" stories.
https://dochermes.livejournal.com/1303616.html?view=comments#comments
Mutant hate makes zero sense in the context of the 616 Earth.
Not when Magneto made humans aware of mutants by inciting a race war, killing thousands of people, threatening the whole world by ruining infrastructure, and carrying on with that shit for decades, made worse by having the X-Men shielding him against the authorities and superheroes trying to bring him to justice, it's very understandable that a not insignificant amount of people would see them as an existential threat, especially with the prospect that more of them are being born every day and you wouldn't know it.
Everything Magneto has ever done is just an average day in the history of 616 Earth. There are a dozen other non-mutant yet super-powered villains who have done similar or much worse. And then there's the whole mutate-mutant nonsense where people love the Fantastic Four but hate the X-men.
Only under bad writers.
Those supervillains don't carry on a racial supremacist bent to their motives. Dr. Doom is about taking over because he "knows better" and that he should be the one leading humanity, not because he thinks that any specific group of people are inferior due to their genetics, superpowered thugs like Absorbing Man and Electro just want to rob banks because, thankfully, they're moronic, despite their powers being fricking OP, and other self-serving supervillains that have their own motives like attaining a scientific monopoly or control of various governments through shadow frickery.
Literal Super Hitler wants to exterminate or enslave, or, at best, significantly marginalize the existence of 99% of the human population simply because they don't have a specific gene activated, that's far more threatening in the minds of people than Absorbing Man knocking over an armored truck or Hulk causing a ruckus in a small town because the military keeps fricking with him.
>Those supervillains don't carry on a racial supremacist bent to their motives.
dishonest reply.
like half of them do have racial motivations
>Those supervillains don't carry on a racial supremacist bent to their motives.
Redskull
Ultron
The Moleman
Any Kree
And so on
Want to know the difference between all of them versus Magneto? None of them are presented as dindus with writers and editorial falling all over themselves trying to show them as a tragic and troubled individuals that mean well despite their monstrous deeds, or having superhero teams making constant excuses for them, and sandbagging attempts for them to be brought to justice.
>None of them are presented as dindus with writers and editorial falling all over themselves trying to show them as a tragic and troubled individuals that mean well despite their monstrous deeds, or having superhero teams making constant excuses for them, and sandbagging attempts for them to be brought to justice.
You're strawmanning.
Magneto has slowly turned heel over decades of storylines and X-men deciding reluctantly he's a dickbag with a few saliant points and his turn made them finally listen to him. He didn't just decide one issue to stop being a villain overnight, and to 99% of the Marvel setting outside of the X-men themselves, they do still consider him a warmongering spiteful butthole. Even those that have allied with him don't consider him a dindunothing.
Why do you want characters to be so black and white?
Hulk declared war on the whole planet (twice) and almost won.
but enough about Tony Stark
The Marvel heroes like Ironman, Thor and Hulk have bodycounts of innocents in the millions, sometimes genociding whole worlds. It's never brought up, they absolutely never face consequences and are absolutely seen as heroic.
Why should Magneto get the Undertaker treatment when the very heroes of the setting are murderous sociopaths?
>Avengers kill sentient robots by the buttload for decades and no one bats an eye
>She-Hulk tears Vision in half after he blows up the Avengers mansion and all of a sudden A.I. lives matter
>She-Hulk tears Vision in half after he blows up the Avengers mansion
I think you're getting your stories mixed
Ultron's entire thing is self-loathing over being created by a human and desire to be more purely robot by wiping out all organic life from Earth, with Mark-12 even realizing the absurdity of such actions and wanting form peace before Mark-11kicked his shit in.
Sauron (the big pterodactyl guy)
Apocalypse (oops, he's also a mutant)
Skrulls in general
AIM
Vampires
Namor, and probably most Atlanteans (who have waged war on the surface more than once)
Wakandans in general if we're being 100
Asgardians probably too
>Sauron (the big pterodactyl guy)
His actions aren't defended by the company.
>Apocalypse (oops, he's also a mutant)
His ironically are given his prominence early on in the Krakoa era.
>Skrulls in general
Ditto for Sauron, you see a few sympathetic characters, but the actions of their empire are seen as indefensible.
>AIM
>racial supremacist
Since fricking when?
>Vampires
Remorselessly monstrous, nobody defends them, fricking Blade is a hero BECAUSE he kills them.
>Namor, and probably most Atlanteans
Recognized as a violent mood-swinging moron, Steve Rogers tolerating him is more of a character flaw for him than Namor's chimp behavior.
>Wakandans in general if we're being 100
Even if they're racist buttholes, they tended to keep to themselves, for better or worse.
>Asgardians probably too
They're literal gods, aside from Thor, they tend to look down on everybody, but despite that they still stay out of the affairs of Midgard and don't try to take it over.
>X-men deciding reluctantly he's a dickbag with a few saliant points and his turn made them finally listen to him.
The issue is that they listened to him at all, the main source of all their headaches, in a weak attempt to make it seem like it's the humans at fault.
>Why do you want characters to be so black and white?
It's whitewashing history in a really ass attempt to make the character seem more sympathetic and justified in the hatred they caused. He's not repentant about what he's done, he just doesn't act on it on a whim. The issue isn't just that he's a villain, it's that he never actually let go of his beliefs or paid for his crimes, and they keep trying to retroactively justify it.
>Iron Man
>Thor
>Hulk
Citation needed.
99% of Ultron's marks are evil and want to exterminate organics, so what if there was one mark that wasn't, and who cares the reason why? He's an existential threat that needs to be eliminated.
>They're literal gods
But is being a god really that much to brag about on 616 Earth? Asgard's main guy regularly gets his ass whupped by Midgarders.
If you say something like this you should have to write out what each take is and ideally with examples. Frankly should also talk about the Thomas stuff too
Lee and Kirby blatantly swiped the concept from a few pulp stories. Mostly, the X-Men were based on the "Baldy" stories by Henry Kuttner.
https://dochermes.livejournal.com/1303616.html?view=comments#comments
But there was also a lot of AE Van Vogt's SLAN and Olaf Stapledon's ODD JOHN in the mix. Comics took ideas from all over the place.
Here's some information about how Van Vogt's SLAN was a source for the X-Men:
https://dochermes.livejournal.com/1348796.html?view=comments#comments
the best idea of the ultimateverse was to make everyone a weapon x product
Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were israeli men who had been in the Army during WW II. The Holocaust and anti-semitism were themes they used in quite a few pre-superhero stories. Rather than representing gays or blacks, it's pretty clear Lee and Kirby thought of the early X-Men in those terms.
X-men was absolutely braindead during the 60s and early 70s