The whole time this being that predates the universe and exists in all realities was just trying to essentially simp for golb, thinking that killing everything in the universe would please it? And then they just have who is basically the main antagonist of adventure time killed like that in such an anticlimactic manner that’s only tangential to the main plot?
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a character, in any media, completely lose all their “coolness factor” for lack of a better term as swiftly and completely as the lich. He went from a competent and powerful manipulator and schemer, a force of nature and literal embodiment of death, to basically throwing a fit because his idol who motivated all his actions didn't give a shit.
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Starlin's Thanos in a nutshell
....That's the punchline; he searches purpose in his goals, when in reality, there's none. He's better off as a machine programed to incite genocide and fear than a fully fledged villain with a motive.
>....That's the punchline
And OP isn't impressed or amused with it. You get that, right?
OP's point feels moot because The Lich jobbed so many times in the original series and even Together Again, him suffering for an eternity at the hands of the most powerful entity of the series wasn't a bad way for this incarnation of the character to go out.
It's more just, why bring him back to just die at Golb's hand rather than Finnoa and Cake or Simon's. He's an obstacle meant to be overcome, he represents the growth Finn has every time he defeats the Lich.
>He's an obstacle meant to be overcome, he represents the growth Finn has every time he defeats the Lich.
Second time Finn meets the Lich, Jake is the one who beats him
Third time Finn does it by accident by flinging life juice at him completely unaware that was going to happen
And also that time Ice King froze him
Wow that sounds fricking moronic.
>evil character doesn’t find satisfaction from a life of evil and ultimately suffers because of it
That’s how it’s supposed to be you fricking morons
Please shut the frick up you damn b***h. Acting like anyone who criticizes your show doesn't "get it". Piss off.
You can criticise the show, but don't expect to not be criticised yourself in the process. People who think the Lich should always win and always be cool don't get the point of evil and clearly have a childish view of it. The Lich was obsessed with destroying all life, it was his entire purpose and it was an evil purpose. When he finally achieved this goal, he wasn't happy or satisfied. Because a life of evil ultimately leaves to a life of suffering. When confronted with the representation of the concept of chaos and destruction, he demands to know why a life of chaos and destruction brought him no satisfaction, and his reward for this evil life was to be destroyed himself and sent to oblivion. It isn't a perfect ending, but it is thematically appropriate for the character the Lich was.
Sorry but when omnicidal maniacs like Jagganoth exist, this is cope for bad writing. Real lich would've just killed himself after the whole universe was wiped out, not expected a reward
Not a reward, but satisfaction.
the lich was never given a motive for wanting to extinguish all life in the original series. we don't know what the "real lich" would have done.
Probably not prostrated himself before a self-insert mary sue like a moron.
But maybe during S1 they were like, let's make a pathetic shitbag of a character but keep it a secret for 14 years. Sounds likely.
the lich didn't recognize GOLB as betty.
and more importantly why does Cinemaphile keep acting like the lich being subservient to GOLB is weird or out of character. GOLB is a chaos god. Lich is a gnat by comparison. they were never on the same level.
Cinemaphile is full of people that hate this series and only understand superficial shit they've been fed through other posters. The type of people that only visit this board for Death Battle.
Image thinking chaos is more powerful than entropy and death. Fricking moron.
Chaos IS entropy. Lich is just a monster, he's not a god.
No, they are not the same thing. Entropy also doesn't tend towards chaos on the universal scale, but instead it ends in absolute and final stillness where change is impossible.
Alright, fair, that makes sense.
>Entropy also doesn't tend towards chaos on the universal scale
Yes it does, by definition. You're confusing chaos, disorder, the supremacy of chance, Greek "abyss, gaping void", with changeability/volatility/unpredictability. We only call the latter chaotic in reference to the former.
Lich needed Prismo's wish to eradicate all life and Prismo can't even touch GOLB.
Golb presumably couldn't just wipe out life on a whim either.
>Golb presumably couldn't just wipe out life on a whim either.
Look, we know a story has gone off the fricking rails when you can say something like that and it has to be true and as a result is a convenient plothole that is so fricking bad nobody should respect it.
I know this has been true long before this point but nobody making this show gives a frick anymore. They're just Harry Pottering or Star Warsing it, just making up shit with no concern or respect for what an audience member with a high school education in literature would want, which apparently is too high a bar to try and hit.
Like I'm glad we're all talking about this character and are all on the same page as to what could have been done but the writers clearly don't give a frick and haven't given a frick for years. All we wanted was Mushroom War lore and instead we have this moronic alternate universe bullshit that is about as criminal as introducing time travel to your story or God. And Adventure Time has committed all three of those unforgivable sins of fiction, which is actually impressive given that it only takes one to utterly discredit a work.
>All we wanted was Mushroom War lore
speak for yourself, adventure time should never, ever touch that shit.
That's fair but the shit Adventure Time has touched is far far worse. Universally worse.
>And Adventure Time has committed all three of those unforgivable sins of fiction
What are the 3 sins of fiction?
> Harry Pottering or Star Warsing
How to tell me you are a zoomer without telling me. Not everyone's on the same page because people don't use a term like "Star Warsing" without being ironic you literal mong.
I don't think there's any indication Golb would ever bother trying. Golb isn't the one who wants to delete all life, the Lich is. Golb doesn't do anything in the show except steal magic man's wife. Even in the finale Golb only comes to Ooo because magic man accidentally summoned him there, and all Golb does is turn some people into mutants with his breath which might not have even been on purpose.
In fact the Lich calling himself a scholar of Golb doesn't actually imply he understands Golb's true nature or his desires. Golb is chaos and chaos doesn't have an agenda.
Yeah, he's the prototypical Lovecraft protagonist who thinks he understands the machinations of an alien being but hasn't. It's like interpreting your own meanings and desires whilst trying to comprehend the language and behaviors of something completely foreign to you. Only to fail utterly and become radically changed. Many such cases. Not the first time people have either intentionally or unintentionally misinterpreted the original author's intent in the show's universe.
GOLB jobbed to some Elemental's science project and a weird creatures forehead rocks.
>Lame villain that shows up near the end of the villain is far less respected than an established antagonist
Wow I'm shocked.
>why are people upset that this establishment main villain is now the b***h to an even more bland last minute antagonist
Gee I wonder
>mary sue
Betty/GOLB haters sure do love spouting buzzwords.
In Greek myth Chaos is the source of all creation. It makes sense that GOLB would play a role in the creation of life. I think the Lich fundamentally misunderstood what GOLB was about.
Lich was literally born from a nuke. Calling him evil is like calling a shark evil. He destroys all life because that’s all he knows. That’s why he went completely comatose when he got trapped in Prismo’s home. He was unable to destroy all life, so he didn’t bother doing anything. Completely retconning this and making him a shitty Thanos knockoff is just lazy writing
This, the Lich was a force of nature, just as enigmatic as the being he served under
The Lich very clearly had thoughts and feelings in his first appearances, he's in total shock when blasting Finn with his fire doesn't work, he groans in desperation as he tries to shake Finn off of him, before he finally just starts to laugh before being pulled apart. He wasn't literally some force, he was a person with a goal.
He definitely has something that could be considered feelings/emotions (that’s what makes him such a good manipulator). But he has no grasp whatsoever on what is good and evil. He doesn’t taunt people because he is a dick, he does it to shatter their hopes and make them give up. He laughs when he makes his wish because he feels a twisted joy at accomplishing his goals
>He doesn’t taunt people because he is a dick
He literally does do that.
>But he has no grasp whatsoever on what is good and evil
Literally all of his behavior points to the opposite, Literally everything he says, even in his first proper episode, points to him understanding that he is evil and that his goal is evil. "The Lich is some kind of unthinking kill-bot" is literally just a headcanon from him going comatose while trapped in Prismo's time cube and ignoring everything else about the character
The Lich was a force of nature, he wasn't a human being with emotions. So he shouldn't have a motive for his actions either. He is just evil and has to achieve his goal because that's what he exists for.
He already got his thematically appropriate ending moron, sealed inside a prison of life called Sweet P. This wasn't satisfying, dude literally jobbed to Golb who was a far less interesting character for more MUH SIMON AND BETTY DRAMA in like the most boring rehash of I remember you but my gf is a giant monster demon.
>using lowest common denominator anime for coomers as a benchmark
Weak sperm.
What, I Remember You is Adventure Time and Betty is indeed a Giant Monster Demon, that wasn't the name of a Light Novel you mongoloid
rude attention prostitute
He's right. Most ATgays have their heads up their asses, like
.
If you want to stay things without getting replies just write a blog
gay
Based
You got those swapped, bro. The Lich ain't some well planned character. If anything, making him a scholar of GOLB and giving him human like traits made him worse.
the lich was always a chump
I just saw the clip. Are they, like, trying to assassinate this character harder than Luke? The entire clip is just him retconning his existence into being a b***h to a strong female and she effortlessly kills him because he's just a dumb male.
>The entire clip is just him retconning his existence into being a b***h to a strong female and she effortlessly kills him because he's just a dumb male.
That's not what is going on at all. Golb didn't even start female.
That's reaching and you know it.
Also the Lich is white and Golb is coloured, coincidence???
GOLB turning you into a lego piece is a "reward" not punishment
it means you ascended
That wasn't GOLB, it was Simon's girlfriend. lmao
The Litch fricked up.
it what golb , he always had those lego pieces around him
I also got that, but not in a reward sense, more in a "strange old one with incomprehensible logic" sense
This. You literally get what you've always wanted when GOLB does that - oblivion and nothingness, surrounding your patron for all eternity.
Adventure time is a show with perfect setup and zero execution.
Most of what they set up could be good, lich, golb, Simon, even the whole plot of the Fionna and Cake, there are very apparent arcs set up from the begining, but they just destroy them trying to be... I don't even know anymore it's like they just choose to do the opposite of any rational decision.
The worst part is even as much as they have dragged the characters into the abyss, I still want to see them, I want to hope, because that's just how well made the characters are. But it won't ever happen.
>I don't even know anymore
My go-to rationale for why things go to shit is that the creators don't know what they've made. They don't know what they've made because they've never planned anything; and they haven't actually sat down and actually talked to a fan who thought far harder about the thing they've made than the average moronic surface-level fan that they normally meet.
When people don't know what they've made they can't deliver. No matter how much you or I imagine how good something is, it doesn't help when the creators themselves haven't done even a fraction of the same amount of thinking. It applies here, it applies elsewhere. It's the artist equivalent of throwing shit at the wall and praying it sticks. There's no planning, no reflection, they find success and don't flesh it out in a way that makes any fricking sense. Another example of JK Rowling.
>Cinemaphile criticizes various aspects of AT going all the way back to its original episodes
>Fionna and Cake airs
>Suddenly people are acting like even the most minor aspects of the show are completely beyond criticism, both in the original series and any of its spinoffs
Where did you people come from? Seriously you really come off as just not being from around here. I even find a lot of the criticisms against AT to be kind of shit myself but this is starting to get ridiculous.
Nothing is beyond criticism, but people are gonna have different opinions on what is good critique and not. If you're gonna post an opinion online anywhere, be prepared for people to shit on it or gtfo.
He's been a scholar of golb since early on moron OP
Just got to watch the finale now and what the frick.
So farmworld Finn was last shown getting his brain skewered and now his son+gf show up to live with Fionna... but what the hell happened to farmworld Finn's other, YOUNGER kids? Not even acknowledged. At least confirm Finn was okay to raise the rest of the children?
Also less baffling but still rather unsatisfying, it looks like nobody in Ooo caught even a glimpse of of Simon's Quest, other than his therapists apparently. That just feels like a waste.
Finally, the whole resolution of Simon's character arc feels kind of incomplete. Him letting go of Betty was fine, even if a clunky metaphor got used for it, but that left the other issue unresolved, that Simon felt dissatisfied and out of place in Ooo after recovering his sanity, like he didn't belong, a relic of the past in a world that didn't fit him and didn't need him.
Him revamping his exhibit a bit and then thinking about moving just doesn't feel like he overcame those issues, only that he was suddenly fine with what he previously disliked at the snap of a finger. I see the parallel with Fionna choosing to keep her world as it was, but Simon didn't have that groundwork to suddenly embrace the life he was sick of like her. Hell, if anything I thought he would end up moving to Fionnaworld, not exactly the most satisfying resolution either but at least it logically follows that he'd prefer a world closely resembling his time period if the writers weren't going through the effort of making him appreciate life in Ooo.
Also lame way for the Lich to go. Not a dealbreaker, but still lame
Still better than "come along with me" but this was such a hasty and moronic resolution I almost thought I was watching Steven Universe.
>Main antagonist becomes a joke
>All stakes are thrown off the window
>All problems are cause by LE bad mental health
>Le depression goes away by the end
>Gay overtones and pastel colors
>And everyone lived happily ever... (what about all those shit worlds were everyone got fricked?)...After.
>The End.
Why should this people NOT be replaced by A.I? Fricking Stable Diffusion and Chat GPT have gotten laughs out of me, AT has been trash for a long time and I hate myself for still sticking to it. I get it liberals, your inner city life fricking sucks, it is not as interesting as you think.
>Him letting go of Betty was fine, even if a clunky metaphor got used for it, but that left the other issue unresolved, that Simon felt dissatisfied and out of place in Ooo after recovering his sanity, like he didn't belong, a relic of the past in a world that didn't fit him and didn't need him.
Yeah that was just dropped pretty much and now it's all about Betty which also had some serious issues. While I like the message of Simon realizing he has to try something different than what he would logically do in hopes of getting another ending, I hated how petty Betty was about Simons choises and that he didn't want to do what she wanted. Betty made her own choose to follow Simon and now she makes it out like it's Simons fault she's suffering for him, what a b***h. I never liked her introduction in the original show and she ends up being the shittiest part of the new series as well. Betty was at her best in Simons story, being glorified by her love. The actual Betty sucks
>that Simon felt dissatisfied and out of place in Ooo after recovering his sanity
Wasn't the entire point of Betty letting him go and both of them gaining closure is that he finally gets to realize the people who were there for him to begin with? He's a relic only when he's trapped in his own mind. Nostalgia and ennui followed afterward. He felt his only purpose was to be with Betty again and that nothing truly mattered.
If you take his arc as a man suffering from bereavement at the loss of a loved one, who died a long time ago, his relapse isn't out of character. It's human to forget lessons and long for the past.
> hated how petty Betty was about Simons choises and that he didn't want to do what she wanted.
I think your overinterpreting Betty's decisions through the mouth of Beth. When she belittles Simon inside of Shermy's body, it's because it's from the POV of a complete outsider. The show took strides to indicate Beth still didn't believe this wasn't one of Shermy's characers. She thought he was playacting.
So there are two people talking here.
Golbetty is a screenwriter who attempts to communicate to Simon (the viewer). She has no control over what the actors in her play specifically say, but she's desperate to convey a message.
Beth is a character within the play. She has no idea Golbetty is her puppetmaster. She has her own motivations and personification. While she plays her part unintentionally, she can only go off knowledge privy to her based on her environment.
To Golbetty this is almost like a dream where she has no direct control over her shadow or subconscious desires playing out.
The Lich has been the biggest jobber in Cartoon History so, it's a fitting ending.
that was a different lich
I kinda liked it better when The Lich was more absolute and one-note when it came to his goals. Yeah, he was a "jobber" since his victory means that the show is over and all, but its his sparing appearances as a force of The End that made him so compelling. Now that this episode dropped he feels less of a malicious but ultimately eternal deity that sought out destruction on account of his own nature, and more of a maladaptive skeleton cultist that found meaning in being a shortsighted dickhead which predictably never works out. I want to take a guess and say that this was probably their way of giving more depth to The Lich, but I'm personally not feeling it. Picrel is funny tho
I think one thing I haven't seen anyone mention is that Wish Lich had essentially the absolute least satisfying way for his goal to be reached. There was no gratifying victory, there was no march to the finish line, nothing to savor, he was just dropped in a world where everyone was dead. That was probably by design as Prismo's "monkey's paw" for the Lich but it's worth making note of.
If he'd actually extinguished all life personally the Lich would probably still feel adrift but he might not feel so hollow in his victory.
The Lich lost to a fricking sweater and then got turned into a giant baby. His threat level has been zero for a very long time.
they've always built up lich at some high point in the story with some great dialogue and then do him dirty.
I think its just what we think is important/cool in AT/FK is not what the writers think is. such a waste of a pearlman voiced character, at least let him go out like a true villain with no remorse.
>at least let him go out like a true villain with no remorse.
I mean, he didn't really feel bad about killing everybody, he was just frustrated that it didn't do anything for him.
Everybody seems to forget that the first way the Lich got killed was that he was turned into a GIANT FRICKING BABY.
At least this time he was destroyed by the cosmic embodiment of chaos.
i'll defend this. defeating death incarnate with life is cool. plus you get a new character out of it
Dude the entire point of the lich is that he has 1 purpose and achieving this goal leaves him with nothing.
Theyve gone over this like several times in the main show.
What was that thing on his chest?
Phylactery? Except it would be moronic to have it on your person
It is definitely his Phylactery, since his whole character is a homage to DnD liches I'm pretty sure.
More horned king
Maybe a pacemaker? Could be a remain from the original owner of the mutated skeleton that the Lich now inhabits.
The real answer is probably that it helps to make the character design more interesting and not "just" a big skeleton.
I'm going with the other anon's theory that it's there to keep his ribs intact after Billy kicked his ass.
was this billy's bones? didnt billy have a hole in his chest?
Metal plating to connect ribs.
Y'know I'm starting to think that I perceived the Lich as being a lot cooler than he actually was.
Revealed his motives? They were never hidden.
>exists in all realities
>main point of this show is that EVERYONE exists in all realities
what a joke
Billy won
The Lich flat out hasn't been cool for years, not since the few sections between his 'Fall.' speech and getting turned into Sweet Pea. You can only have him beaten easily by a kid, dog, and giant baby so often before he loses his cool factor.
I thought it was funny how the main antagonist's god isn't very kind to his followers. If you follow a chaos god, don't expect mercy. You could even be smited on a whim, for a single moment of amusement.
YO LIL GOLBIE I JUST CAME IN MY OWN MOUTH AND THEN SMEARED MY SHIT IN WITH IT THEN LICKED IT OFF A DUDE'S ASSCRACK HOW DOES THAT MAKE YOU FEEL? WHAT DO I DO NOW GOLBF.
>predates the universe
He was born in the universe from the mushroom bomb which came from the comet. He's only a thousand years old tops.
The comet carried the essence of the Lich, but how old is that essence?
Like 65 million years or so. Are you saying Finn is like 1 thousand years old because he too was a comet?
I don't want to make another thread for this.
Why the frick would they do BMO like that? It's not like I care about BMO all that much but what the frick? That's just cheap writing right? Just recklessly murdering something for cheap feels?
He didn't have a lot of time left, you can see him trying to scavenge batteries.
Dude might as well go out like a hero
I think part of him wanted to die. Dark stuff.
>cool villain becomes stupid jobber because bad writing by hacks
Many such cases.
Belos only ever jobbed to The Collector
>watching Adventure Time in 2023
I mean... what did you expect?
Lich was such a cool character. You almost forgot he was trapped in a mediocre cartoon with shit protagonists and immature humour
Was there a patient zero to Lich?
Do you guys think he is completely dead, just like Margles? Or he is just a skull incapable of doing anything, trapped for all enternity?
everyone in the tetris cubes might still be alive and going through their own crazy golbetty matrix scenarios, maybe he can learn something. if anything else there's still a million lich-jake hands crawling around in all the dimensions.
Key takeaways:
(i) Golb cannot kill anything. Scarab, an entity threatening Betty's love, was turned into smaller versions of himself that could combine together. She had every reason to given the extremes she went to to bring Simon there in the first place. This means that it is beyond Golb's power to directly destroy entities
(ii) During the season finale of AT we saw more proof of this as Golb corrupted the gumball guardian and the banana guards instead of fully killing them. It was directly stated that he is the god of chaos and entrophy, which implicitly excludes death. This seems to be governed by other cosmic aspects, deities, or primordials, of which...
(iii) The Lich fulfills perfectly. He is the embodiment of ruination and death. He fulfills his duty as the Last Scholar of Golb and is rewarded, not killed. Golb returns the Lich to an inert state like the other Tetris blocks for later usage (see Catalyst Comet). Near or full extinction events across the multiverse are owed to these blocks as it is implied that every universe has the Lich.
(iv) A pattern of crowns emerge in every AU, which means that multiple universes had an Evergreen-equivalent that created an exact copy of the baseline universe's crown for some unknown event. Thus, it can be presumed that all of those green blocks will serve a greater purpose if we assume they all contain similar life-ending entities or simply multiple versions of the Lich.
I repeat, no where was it shown that the Lich died. That's beyond Golb's capacity as primordial chaos. It's not the thing that deity governs over. It can corrupt and change but not erase and destroy.
Wow adventure time is still getting stuff besides the 'lazy 20-something girl who is a slob' series huh?
>muh golb and lich
The lich always sucked because the Lich King concept was scrapped and redone to avoid legal confusion with World of Warcraft. His entire original purpose was reworked because of this.
>he main antagonist of adventure time killed like that in such an anticlimactic manner that’s only tangential to the main plot?
The first we hear of the Lich, it's that he got punched into the sap of a tree and was unable to get out under his own power (sap weak enough a snail broke it with its face)
The first defeat of the Lich actually within the show, he got pulled apart by a 12 year old with a sweater
The next and, and an actually okay, defeat of the lich is Ice King freezing him because Ice King's magic is actually insanely strong
Then he gets slapped with life juice that turns him into a baby
Then he gets his only respectable defeat, getting blasted with a weapon sent across the multiverse specifically to kill him
Then he goes back to getting beaten like a chump until a god of chaos turns him into a tetris block
The point I was trying to make was that the reveal and death was dissatisfying narratively.
Litch more like b***h am I rite?
>the death itself
>killed
is this a joke
>Lich
>Death
Death is a separate character
and Lich actually killed him LOL
Just to job to some last minute antagonist that no one actually likes, what a fricking joke this series was.
this is one of those thing where future installments will say "that wasn't real him, it was a flawed clone". Happens in the comics all the time after previous writers frick up royally
>swiftly
When the Lich first appeared in Adventure Time, I really loved him. He was a creepy villain and didn't quite seem to fit in the setting which made him really interesting. Unfortunately, it has been nothing but a downward spiral from there. Sure, there are a few cool scenes with him giving the speech about nothingness and monsters, and him being related to the bomb, but for every cool moment there are at least three dumb moments where he jobs and jobs fricking hard. I don't think the writers of AT ever really knew what to do with him after his first appearance. To see him treated and mishandled is nothing new and I am unsure why anyone would be surprised by this.
Spoiler, the writers hated the original premise and do everything to destroy it
Lets be honest, the Lich didnt really go from anything to anything. The Lich did not have a coherent story in Adenture Time. It is very unclear what the Lich really is and every time he shows up its just to have an 'oh shit' moment because, AT conditioned its audience to not take any villain seriously unless its the Lich. So the Lich is sort of a 'the stakes are high' prop and nothing else.
I dont know why he showed up in F&C in the first place, he has nothing to do with their story, he contributed nothing at all to the plot and was just there for a sort of 'resolution' to his character. But how can you have a resolution to a character arc when that arc has no beginning and no build up whatsoever? All that we know about the Lich is that he wants to end all life. Why? Who knows, maybe hes just an evil necromancer, maybe hes the manifestation of nuclear catastrophe, maybe he is an ancient cosmic evil arriving via meteorite. The problem is that when AT first created various continuities it created various possible Lich origins and then confused AU Lich with OG Lich, mixing the two.
It was very apparent that the writers had no clue what to do with the Lich when they tried to resolve his arc with Sweet Pea just to change their minds inmediately after.
At this point, the only driving force in the Lich's story is fan hype.
Fionna and Cake comic is being storytimed here if anyone wants to read:
>this being that predates the universe
Wrong
>was just trying to essentially simp for golb
This was established ages ago
>And then they just have who is basically the main antagonist of adventure time killed like that in such an anticlimactic manner that’s only tangential to the main plot?
This happens in all his appearances