Noin was originally envisaged as the Garma to Zechs' Char. They eventually went with making her more of an actual ally, but the intention was there. Cronicle is arguably a Garma clone too. He's part of the ruling family, doing everything for his sister and lover, controlled and used by the series' Char, as much a commander as a fighter, kind of a naive idiot propping up a horrific system despite some good intentions etc. All he's really missing is the purple hair.
I would say so yes. Blonde haired rival to the main character, pilots a red suit for the last stretch of the show, joins the villainous organization for personal reasons and her ambitions ultimately undermine it, relationship with someone younger than them etc. Cronicle looks more like Char, but is a lot more akin to Garma in personality and role.
Cronicle is pretty much nothing like Char beyond the mask. His attitude is actually more Gato than anything.
2 years ago
Anonymous
His attitude is pretty in line with Garma, since he's trying to impress and help his sister and his lover. Which Garma was trying to do too. He got very hard nosed about it at times, jumping into situations he didn't really understand with badly formulated plans, with Char having to correct his perceptions of what the White Base was planning or how to counter it in basically every encounter they had. Which eventually bit Garma in the ass, since his reliance on and trust in Char's word Char meant Char could undercut him pretty easily. Katejina was the one pushing Cronicle through his faults too.
definitely not. Pic related isn't the best Char clone either, but he's already better fit than Chocoman for that role by a wide margin anyway >untrustworthy as frick >delusions of grandeur >whole army of e-girls >his last thought was for his waifu
> Glemy is more evil than Iron Mask, who wanted to depopulate the Earth through mass slaughter > Or Rau, who wanted to kill everyone, everywhere, forever
Yeah, no. I think you could make a good case for Neo too, as much of a putz as he is, because he was hiding behind orders and then used the excuse of brain washing to never contemplate that time again.
Glemy was bloodthirsty and ambitious hit he'd probably have stopped once he had his way, and only used violence again to keep dissent in line. Char believed in his own bullshit to some degree in Char's Counterattack, and he'd have wiped out everyone on Earth to follow that stupid line of shit and multiple clones of his have tried much the same thing. At least the clown in NT dud so purely out of spite and anger because he'd been used so thoroughly by everyone around him, and couldn't see that ever improving. It's pitiable rather than anything else, really.
Nah, I'm not sure who I'd say is best but Milliardo is literally just a Char knock off in every way that counts. He's Char not just visually or narratively, but has basically the same background, story and even personality or role at various points. I'd probably go with Katejina or Graham, if pushed.
>Graham
Pretty sure Graham is the only Char clone to pull off a decisive victory against the protagonist in a grunt suit. No, Zechs dunking the Wing in the ocean doesn't count. That was more of a QTE than a real battle. Graham actually forced a retreat.
Setsuna was exhausted both mentally and physically at that point, and I wouldn't call his Flag a grunt suit especially after the GN Drive upgrade.
Graham was great in S1 but I don't know what they were thinking when they decided to turn him into a mentally ill weeaboo
That's almost every S1 character who lived to S2 >Marina basically did nothing, I feel like she's supposed to go just like the other politicians but bandai said they need a princess >Ali became a lot less wild because he's reduced to Ribbon's attack dog >Lockon might as well be just a random faceless celestial being recruit. They didn't do anything with his status as double agent, and there was no drama or anything about him not being Neil. It's like Lockon never died. >Soma had an interesting character arc, but they practically killed her by having Marie resurface. >Allelujah's subplot was concluded very early and there was nothing else going for him.
Frick I hate 00 S2.
>there was no drama or anything about him not being Neil
There kind of was with the pink haired girl, I recall. Not a big thing though, it was basically like a scene or something. Lockon II's problem is his defining feature is just being his brother but without the baggage. They didn't capitalize on it much other than the final confrontation with Ali.
I wouldn't count Zechs defeating the Wing in the first episode of Wing Gundam as saying much about Zechs himself because given what we're shown I have to assume Heero wanted to be defeated, honestly. Zechs uses the most lazy leglock of all time to grapple the Gundam (serioulsy, it's just one leg wrapped around the back of the Wing's leg), while still up above the clouds and Heero can't get out of that? Frick off. He's in a flying suit, to boot and at no point does he even try to slow the descent. I get the feeling he knew he'd been spotted, thus compromising the mission and he was determined to take himself and his unit out as part of his directives. Hence why he goes back to blow up the Wing and then wants to kill himself as well.
>bad animation
You can say a lot if things about Age, but you can't really say it had bad animation
Hence why I said you could throw bad animation at "some" of them.
Well then, let me ask you this: In what ways would you say IBO is better than those? Because I struggle to.
I wouldn't personally. Not because I like IBO, but because I mostly found it kind of boring, and while I finished watching the first season as it aired, I never watched the second because I didn't enjoy the first. It's well enough made, and plenty of people seem to enjoy it, but it never clicked with me outside the first few episodes (as in, maybe the first 3 or 4). I recall an interview/article after season one finished where they talked about how Naze had originally been introduced as someone meant to betray Tekkadan after accepting them because they invaded his ship, and honestly, that sounds far more interesting to me since it gives Orga both an aspirational figure and an enemy for dramatic purposes. A character he can take both good and bad from. As is, Naze was just as kind of bland good guy, who papered over a lot of the potential problems for half the season.
Beyond that, I haven't seen it since it aired so I don't really feel that well placed to criticize it, since I barely recall it. I know it bored me, but don't really remember why.
Frontal was too based for UC. Too bad he got yeeted by Newtype magic.
> Char: the Speedrun Edition is best
Nah, I'm not sure who I'd say is best but Milliardo is literally just a Char knock off in every way that counts. He's Char not just visually or narratively, but has basically the same background, story and even personality or role at various points. I'd probably go with Katejina or Graham, if pushed.
I'd say Zechs has a more satisfying conclusion to his character arc than Char. Having a better (and not dead) waifu didn't hurt either.
SEED, Destiny and AGE are all more than bad plot too. There's plenty of bad characters and bad writing among all 3 and you could throw bad animation, bad mechanical design and a few other accusations at some of them too.
AGE and SEED have some of the best mechanical design in all of Gundam.
Age also has some of the best animation in the series.
Age is nowhere near as bad as people say it is.
The finale arc is bad, but the rest of the show is a solid experience.
Seed is fine storywise it’s really just some of the animation that sucks.
Disagree personally. While AGE's mechanical design for grunts isn't bad and I love some of the more inhuman designs like the Wrozzo, none of it really hits for me and the Gundams and other one off units (like SID) are pretty meh. SEED I just don't care for in general. The grunts are kind of boring, and the one off units tend towards being overly busy. As to the actual show, I think SEED is mediocre and got bored of Destiny about 15 episodes in and have never finished it, but I think AGE is probably a low point for the franchise in general.
Not just Kio's arc either, since that's usually where people place blame, and I wouldn't even place Kio in the show's top 5 problems personally, but throughout the entire show. The more I think about the parts that are boring, the more stupid and annoying they are. Meaning it's both bad and boring, in my opinion. I think Build Fighters Try is the only other work I'd put on it's level. On the other hand, SEED is just kind of a mediocre re-tread of 0079 for the first half, and then while it diverges in the second half, nothing it does is particularly interesting. Bombastic yes, but not actually interesting. Very popcorn movie drama. Or soap opera drama, I guess.
>there was no drama or anything about him not being Neil
There kind of was with the pink haired girl, I recall. Not a big thing though, it was basically like a scene or something. Lockon II's problem is his defining feature is just being his brother but without the baggage. They didn't capitalize on it much other than the final confrontation with Ali.
Feldt followed him around briefly because he looked like his brother, so he kissed her out of the blue before asking her out on a date and when she got indignant he flat out told her to stop treating him like his brother. There's a few scenes like that early on. The problem is, the show wants to have it's cake and eat it too. Putting aside that they're identical twins, you also get scenes like him asking the Haro if his brother had a phrase he'd say before shooting on his first proper mission (rescue Allelujah) and then saying the same thing. Does he want to be his own man or not, show?
Every time I see people crapping on IBO on here all I see is people adamantly saying it's bad, and then not every elaborating on what that means. I've seen large rants where is basically just a guy picking out each individual part of the plot to add more words to their rant and saying it's bad. Bad is never advanced upon, it means nothing. These criticisms mean nothing
One of the things that make it bad is how awful of a protagonist it has. He is barely a character of his own.
The next, and probably the biggest is, is how it's writing goes. On one hand, it wants to subvert standard Gundam tropes but only for the sake of subverting and not offering any critique, just wanting to do the opposite. It's also really fricking bad with how it telegraphs things, and while it's death flags are obvious points, my favorite is still >"I, Akihiro, am going to suddenly remember my younger brother who I haven't brought up in a previous episode in anyway." >"Which means that I, Akihiro's little brother suddenly appears! And as an enemy!"
I can go on. But as cheap as it's telegraphs are, it's writing that seeks to subvert for the sake of it, to be the "Anti-Gundam" is the main reason.
Yeah the series felt oddly childish like that, despite how seriously it took itself most the time.
Same with two of the villains being a pig man and a snake man, just cause.
2 years ago
Anonymous
There's a lot of people who praise it for being "darker and grittier" on a surface level, but it's really only in a really juvenile way.
What this guy said [...], plus mention that it is very clear that whoever wrote the script of this shlock clearly wanted MC to be femon, but got lauged at by thhe production.
And it clearly shows in form Kudelia who happens to author's self intrest gets to have half the screen time and somehow wastes every second of it. As a trade off actual MC and rest of main cast gets to have no development of their own. Mika is essencially a lapdog.
IBO and SEED:D is a proof that women should not have agancy in anything mecha related ever again. It's the one thing Tomino was always right about. But it seems sunrise just doesn't learn.
Mika being one note is the whole point of his character. He’s lost all his humanity and has no place he belongs but in the battlefield.
Tekkadan as a whole is also an extension of that, they never grew out of their initial goals, they just kept aimlessly expanding until they stepped on the toes of someone too big to handle and got squashed.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Mika being one note is the whole point of his character. He’s lost all his humanity and has no place he belongs but in the battlefield >It's okay that the MC is a shitty protagonist because being a shitty character is the point
Making something bad on purpose doesn't make it good
2 years ago
Anonymous
>me when i dont get character writing
2 years ago
Anonymous
stop talking like an underage twitter homosexual
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Mika being one note is the whole point of his character. He’s lost all his humanity and has no place he belongs but in the battlefield.
And it could have been a story about him regaining his humanity and finding a real place to belong rather than constantly being dependent on his onii-chan to tell him what to do, which would have actually been interesting, but it wasn't.
2 years ago
Anonymous
That was already done in Wing and 00.
IBO is more interesting for exploring the other option.
2 years ago
Anonymous
No. The other option was to have him be as boring as frick which is not interesting in the slightest. Just because you can subvert something doesn't mean it's a good idea.
Upon review I didn’t find IBO to be that bad.
It has very obvious flaws that agitate me like the poor foreshadowing, and jarring tonal shifts that certain characters like Carta and Naze’s harem introduce.
And it’s mechanical animation is terrible most of the time, but overall it’s far from the worst Gundam has to offer.
And outside of just Gundam it’s not a particularly bad anime.
>but overall it’s far from the worst Gundam has to offer.
See, I see this defense a lot, and I need to ask
If IBO isn't the worst, then what is it better than? Because to me, it's not better than anything else in the series that comes to mind.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Not him but for me the worst Gundam will always be Destiny and 08th MS team.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Destiny >08th MS team
And in what way was it better than either of those?
2 years ago
Anonymous
NTA and I thought 08th MS Team was fine so frick that anon but IBO did not suffer from blatant main character jacking and stock footage.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Unicorn and anything else Fukui is responsible for.
2 years ago
Anonymous
ending >>Epic and emotional sequences
plays >>IBO ending
Yeah i will stick with Unicorn. You can have your Gay Blooded Orphans.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Unicorn >dude Newtype magic time travel lmao
kys
2 years ago
Anonymous
I really don’t see why people hated Unicorn’s ending, it’s not like it was the first time the uc pulled magic technology or Newtype abilities out of its ass.
I’m convinced if Tomino had written the same thing these people would be worshiping it.
Unicorn was basically what would happen if you took a Tomino plot/concepts and let someone direct them in a more cinematic(and competent) style.
>Unicorn was basically what would happen if you took a Tomino plot/concepts and let someone direct them in a more cinematic(and competent) style.
That's hathaway. I don't see the tomino-ness in Unicorn at all.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Yeah, I'm sure Tomino would write Imperial Japan wankery, complete with post-WWII rape camps, I mean, post-OYW rape camps.
Dipshit.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Unicorn >Imperial Japan wankery
Ah, another tard who missed the trees for the forest. Works like Turn A must be Imperial Japan wankery too, right?
2 years ago
Anonymous
Japan
characters are either Caucasian or Black
Every Unicorn complainers are morons and you proved it.
2 years ago
Anonymous
The really silly part is that the rape camps aren't even a thing; at least within the Unicorn OVA anyway. Maybe it's a thing in the novels, but if it was, then it was changed for animation anyway. Federation forces occupied and then slaughtered the inhabitants of Globe City in Side 3, in Zinnerman's case, Marida was a child prostitute and Angelo was sexually abused by his father in law.
All of which are things Tomino would write, but at least 2 of which are things he did write. The Federation slaughtered citizens on 30 Bunch, which kicked off the Gryps conflict within Zeta Gundam, and Lalah was a child prostitute going by the backstory he wrote on the novel about Char's meeting her. I can't think of any instances of him writing sexual abuse by family, in Gundam or his other shows/novels, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he had either because it's certainly not outside the pale of the other stuff he's written.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Not him but this is a moronic way of arguing that point.
Do you not know what an allegory is?
2 years ago
Anonymous
>>dude Newtype mindbreak lmao >>dude Newtype astral projection lmao >>dude Newtype telekinesis lmao
Yes. Those are all things established by the very same man who created Newtypes in the first place, not some hack fanfiction "writer", they all also involve traditional mental powers instead of idiotically overpowered nonsense like time travel, aging mobile suits, or growing crystals on your mobile suit (???)
Not to mention even by the time he was working on F91 and Victory Tomino was already moving on from Newtypes, which really just comes to show how childish and retrograde Fukui's mentality was when writing that drivel.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Ghosts fueling technology is a traditional mental power? Never mind questioning how "making yourself invincible" or "using telekinesis to throw an asteroid out of orbit after it's crossed the terminal line" isn't over powered. I also wouldn't say "but Tomino eventually moved on from Newtypes" negates the fact he did any of it either. Or that Tomino and a host of other people, many into their 40s at the time, writing about those things is any less childish than Fukui doing so a few decades later.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Seed Destiny, Wing, Victory, Try, F91 and just a notch above AGE.
>And it’s mechanical animation is terrible most of the time
I'm still confused why they picked gundams that are ridiculously hard to animate with exposed pistons and a huge emphasis on actual physical guns with physical shells instead of lasers and a huge emphasis on melee combat
They're all great sounding ideas but it makes it much harder to animate, it sounds like a gimmick that was approved because it makes fricking great marketing points, and you can see them choke on it
I am also to this day confused why they had an entire protagonist force of physically fit, physically capable, military trained people shown doing hard labor and physical activity, but not a single scene of hand to hand combat or actual gun combat
This feels like a bunch of concepts made for an amazing OVA rather than a network show
2 years ago
Anonymous
>but not a single scene of hand to hand combat or actual gun combat
This is a problem accross Gundam in general.
Unicorn and Hathaway are the only entries I can remember having notable hand to hand action sequences.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Yeah it's weird they wanted such complicated mecha to animate, with animation team that was less willing to pull their weight than whoever worked on AGE or G-reco.
The seemingly random shooting of Lafter on the space colony was pretty absurd and jarring even by the plot that was going on. The second part was the complete lack of medical care, which was shown multiple times (Takaki/Chad/Ein) being put in the magical med-bed which could have easily been used on her dumb ass as well. It just seems like an oversight on killing a character, although I guess she was a Hikasa Yoko girl so she had to go out in a crappy fashion anyways.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Are you moronic or did you actively not pay any attention to the show?
2 years ago
Anonymous
How come she didn't get a med bed and then died like a b***h in the build a bear workshop when other characters who get fricked up lived?
2 years ago
Anonymous
She was shot in the head you dumb hick. Why on gods green earth would you even think it was "random" either?
One of the things that make it bad is how awful of a protagonist it has. He is barely a character of his own.
The next, and probably the biggest is, is how it's writing goes. On one hand, it wants to subvert standard Gundam tropes but only for the sake of subverting and not offering any critique, just wanting to do the opposite. It's also really fricking bad with how it telegraphs things, and while it's death flags are obvious points, my favorite is still >"I, Akihiro, am going to suddenly remember my younger brother who I haven't brought up in a previous episode in anyway." >"Which means that I, Akihiro's little brother suddenly appears! And as an enemy!"
I can go on. But as cheap as it's telegraphs are, it's writing that seeks to subvert for the sake of it, to be the "Anti-Gundam" is the main reason.
, plus mention that it is very clear that whoever wrote the script of this shlock clearly wanted MC to be femon, but got lauged at by thhe production.
And it clearly shows in form Kudelia who happens to author's self intrest gets to have half the screen time and somehow wastes every second of it. As a trade off actual MC and rest of main cast gets to have no development of their own. Mika is essencially a lapdog.
IBO and SEED:D is a proof that women should not have agancy in anything mecha related ever again. It's the one thing Tomino was always right about. But it seems sunrise just doesn't learn.
> It's the one thing Tomino was always right about.
He’s literally tried to get a female mc for Gundam twice.
And Turn A had a couple of female writers too.
Tomino’s opinions are the complete opposite of what you’re assuming.
2 years ago
Anonymous
When has he tried, according to you? Cause it's widely rumored he wanted one in Turn A, but even the earliest concept art is of a male main character, so that appears to be bunk. Tomino was also allowed to do a lot on Turn A that he was refused before or others would never do, so the idea he couldn't get Banrise to agree to a female main character is pretty suspicious without some source. He was able to keep the Gundam out of the first episode entirely for instance (most of the second too), which he was refused on Victory. He also was allowed to hire a foreign mechanical designer, which it's doubtful many could get away with.
2 years ago
Anonymous
He has already done it with G-Reco though
2 years ago
Anonymous
But he already did
Are you going to keep making this joke, or do you actually want this point taken (and dismissed) seriously?
2 years ago
Anonymous
What joke? Both Aida and Bellri are the main characters of G-Reco
2 years ago
Anonymous
No, Bellri is the main character. Aida is a main character, along with Raraiya and others, but Bellri is the main character and/or protagonist. We see the story through his eyes, he gets the lion's share of the show's focus, he is the one who is responsible for settling a lot of the show's
mecha conflict and he is also the one who most exemplifies the shows theme about seeing the world for yourself, since he starts out with a very sheltered view and has his eyes opened throughout before going to see the world on his own in the epilogue. Aida already knew at least some of the truth before the show even begins and takes on a more diplomatic role throughout, suiting her role as secondary and supplement to the protagonist.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Her role is not secondary though. She's actually the one that drives G-Reco's plot forward. It was her decision to go to Towasanga and Venus Globe.
Pay attention next time.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Someone being the protagonist isn't determined by who drives the plot forward, it's determined by whose perspective the show follows. It could have been following a random grunt with no impact on the story and that grunt would still be the protagonist.
2 years ago
Anonymous
What I'm getting from this is that you don't know what a protagonist is. Thank you for informing everyone.
Thank you for debunking the misinformation, Deacon!
2 years ago
Anonymous
What I'm getting from this is that you don't know what a protagonist is. Thank you for informing everyone.
2 years ago
Anonymous
The show's relative focus on Aida v Bellri can be seen in how it treats the introduction of their supporting structure. Bellri gets a full introduction of himself, his training within the Capital Guard, his motivation to help his mother, his friends (Luin, Noredo and Luin) and relationship to them etc. Aida basically drops out of the sky and we don't even get a good view of her relationship with her lover before he's killed. The guy's biggest characterization is "dated Aida". It's a pretty stark difference in priority.
Hell, you might even be able to simplify it because after the guy is killed Aida is the who has to accept Bellri, despite Bellri killing him. There's narrative cause for it, but Aida is the who learning to accept Bellri, which puts focus on him and her relationship to him rather than the other way around; which again, puts priority on Bellri. I'd also point to how a lot of Aida's arc is suggestions and stuff happening off-screen, while there's more focus on the resolution of Bellri's problems and character growth.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Based on what he says in the Turn A no Iyashii book the Dianna and kihel plot line and characters were the first concepts he came up with for Turn A, the whole story is written around them and even in the final version of Turn A they have as much if not more more agency and relevance to the story as Loran.
In G-Reco Aida was also a much more important character to the main events of the story than Bellri, and the movies even give her more screen time and development. Bellri loses much relevance pretty early on.
2 years ago
Anonymous
The fact a character or characters have more agency, character growth or plot relevance than the protagonist does not mean that the creator really wanted them as the protagonist and wasn't able to swing it. Neither Dianna or Kihel are pilots, at least as we have them, so they couldn't be the protagonist of a mecha show. By that metric, Sochie, who also has at least as much agency and relevance, would be the protagonist.
Some stories are written with a static protagonist though; someone who is already finished their growth, and whose presence exists to inspire that growth in others. Loran is a good person, and the center of the show morally. The rest of the cast are improved by knowing him, rather than him improving over the course of the story.
You've provided 2 possible cases according to your own logic, but no actual source or proof. So personally, I wouldn't take it as counting for shit. Tomino already had a female protagonist; Hime in Brain Powerd. So if he wanted one in Gundam, especially in shows where he either already got away with a lot or the suits weren't terribly invested in the show's fate, then he'd probably have done it.
2 years ago
Anonymous
But he already did
2 years ago
Anonymous
A mecha show’s MC doesn’t need to be a pilot. It’s become a convention but that’s not a hard rule.
2 years ago
Anonymous
It's not a hard rule, no; it's just a lot harder to include mecha action efficiently if your main character isn't a mecha pilot since you, by definition, your protagonist the person you spend the most time focused on and thus, if your main character isn't a mecha pilot then either you're not focusing on the mecha action during battles a lot of the time or don't have a lot of battles. And, even if you do have mecha battles, then the protagonist is probably going to be doing something less visually and dramatically exciting than a secondary character during those battles. Which, again, not a rule; just not a great dramatic or narrative decision.
Since you say it though, can you give me a list of all the mecha shows where the main character isn't a mecha pilot? I'm sure some exist, but they're rare and I want to know how many you can name.
> women should not have agancy in anything mecha related ever again. It's the one thing Tomino was always right about.
You should stop projecting your politics onto people you don't know. Tomino hired women to write on Zeta, ZZ, Brain Powerd, Turn A Gundam and King Gainer at the very least. Said women wrote about a fifth of Brain Powerd, Turn A and King Gainer and about half if Zeta and ZZ. A woman, Hime, is the main character of Brain Powerd, and both Dianna and Kihel have more narrative agency and character development than Loran in Turn A Gundam.
He's like if Char had his CCA mental breakdown at the end of 0079. There is that Char finesse that's missing there.
Unless you consider oddballs like Katejina or Harry Ord Char clones, Zechs is the only real choice Gundam-wise. Certainly not Graham and whatever the hell his story was supposed to be in the end.
Some of non-Gundam ones like Lelouch outedge Zechs though.
Honestly that always felt more like a reference to me than an attempt at an actual Quattro type identity, like I don't think that disguise lasted two episodes.
As someone who never really felt the inclination to sympathize with the Tekaddan very deeply, I still thought the ending was very strange.
After all that, the vibe I was getting was "The nail that sticks out gets hammered". Okay? I don't feel like we needed such an extended show to get to that message.
I think it feels disjointed because the people working on it had two completely different visions for the series, like what's his name wanting Tekkadan to be viewed as unsympathetic while Okada felt the opposite.
I had long stopped caring about Tekkadan by the ending, so them losing doesn't bother me, but you can definitely see that his view of how he wanted Tekkadan portrayed wasn't working out because others wanted something different. There's definitely other areas where you can see him and Okada were definitely in opposition.
Everyone making Pedo jokes are moronic. Macky meant every last word he said to Almeria and woudlve treated her like an actual princess, as promised. No creepy ulterior motives, he just has childish dreams and perceptions of his perfect world
Only to MAPs.
The best Char clone is that guy from Ace Combat 04.
Yellow 13?
His gay ass friend was a char clone.
But yeah he's pretty great character.
Gaelio is the best Garma clone. Definitely better than Athrun.
There really, really isn't any competition for Garma clones. At all. Athrun isn't remotely near that position. MAYBE Kacricorn Cacooler?
Noin was originally envisaged as the Garma to Zechs' Char. They eventually went with making her more of an actual ally, but the intention was there. Cronicle is arguably a Garma clone too. He's part of the ruling family, doing everything for his sister and lover, controlled and used by the series' Char, as much a commander as a fighter, kind of a naive idiot propping up a horrific system despite some good intentions etc. All he's really missing is the purple hair.
That explains why Noin is more of a simp/orbiter than an actual friend later on.
Wait what
If Cronicle is not the Char of Victory, who is? Katejina?
Katejina screws him over for laughs when he assumed they were allies at that point, so it fits.
The true villain of Victory was Tomino. He was trying, and failed, to kill Gundam with Victory.
I would say so yes. Blonde haired rival to the main character, pilots a red suit for the last stretch of the show, joins the villainous organization for personal reasons and her ambitions ultimately undermine it, relationship with someone younger than them etc. Cronicle looks more like Char, but is a lot more akin to Garma in personality and role.
Cronicle is pretty much nothing like Char beyond the mask. His attitude is actually more Gato than anything.
His attitude is pretty in line with Garma, since he's trying to impress and help his sister and his lover. Which Garma was trying to do too. He got very hard nosed about it at times, jumping into situations he didn't really understand with badly formulated plans, with Char having to correct his perceptions of what the White Base was planning or how to counter it in basically every encounter they had. Which eventually bit Garma in the ass, since his reliance on and trust in Char's word Char meant Char could undercut him pretty easily. Katejina was the one pushing Cronicle through his faults too.
Not even the best char clone in his series.
That title goes to Graham.
You spelled Bushido Bob wrong
> Bushido Job
His legend transcends time and space.
definitely not. Pic related isn't the best Char clone either, but he's already better fit than Chocoman for that role by a wide margin anyway
>untrustworthy as frick
>delusions of grandeur
>whole army of e-girls
>his last thought was for his waifu
Glemy's probably one of the most evil Char clones. If not, the most.
> Glemy is more evil than Iron Mask, who wanted to depopulate the Earth through mass slaughter
> Or Rau, who wanted to kill everyone, everywhere, forever
Yeah, no. I think you could make a good case for Neo too, as much of a putz as he is, because he was hiding behind orders and then used the excuse of brain washing to never contemplate that time again.
Glemy was bloodthirsty and ambitious hit he'd probably have stopped once he had his way, and only used violence again to keep dissent in line. Char believed in his own bullshit to some degree in Char's Counterattack, and he'd have wiped out everyone on Earth to follow that stupid line of shit and multiple clones of his have tried much the same thing. At least the clown in NT dud so purely out of spite and anger because he'd been used so thoroughly by everyone around him, and couldn't see that ever improving. It's pitiable rather than anything else, really.
Nope. Best Char clone is Milliardo, literal congress like Frontal notwithstanding.
> Char: the Speedrun Edition is best
Nah, I'm not sure who I'd say is best but Milliardo is literally just a Char knock off in every way that counts. He's Char not just visually or narratively, but has basically the same background, story and even personality or role at various points. I'd probably go with Katejina or Graham, if pushed.
>Graham
Pretty sure Graham is the only Char clone to pull off a decisive victory against the protagonist in a grunt suit. No, Zechs dunking the Wing in the ocean doesn't count. That was more of a QTE than a real battle. Graham actually forced a retreat.
Didn't Cronicle force Usso to retreat early on in Victory too?
Cronicle was a red herring Char clone, the real one was Katejina.
Setsuna was exhausted both mentally and physically at that point, and I wouldn't call his Flag a grunt suit especially after the GN Drive upgrade.
That's almost every S1 character who lived to S2
>Marina basically did nothing, I feel like she's supposed to go just like the other politicians but bandai said they need a princess
>Ali became a lot less wild because he's reduced to Ribbon's attack dog
>Lockon might as well be just a random faceless celestial being recruit. They didn't do anything with his status as double agent, and there was no drama or anything about him not being Neil. It's like Lockon never died.
>Soma had an interesting character arc, but they practically killed her by having Marie resurface.
>Allelujah's subplot was concluded very early and there was nothing else going for him.
Frick I hate 00 S2.
>there was no drama or anything about him not being Neil
There kind of was with the pink haired girl, I recall. Not a big thing though, it was basically like a scene or something. Lockon II's problem is his defining feature is just being his brother but without the baggage. They didn't capitalize on it much other than the final confrontation with Ali.
I wouldn't count Zechs defeating the Wing in the first episode of Wing Gundam as saying much about Zechs himself because given what we're shown I have to assume Heero wanted to be defeated, honestly. Zechs uses the most lazy leglock of all time to grapple the Gundam (serioulsy, it's just one leg wrapped around the back of the Wing's leg), while still up above the clouds and Heero can't get out of that? Frick off. He's in a flying suit, to boot and at no point does he even try to slow the descent. I get the feeling he knew he'd been spotted, thus compromising the mission and he was determined to take himself and his unit out as part of his directives. Hence why he goes back to blow up the Wing and then wants to kill himself as well.
Hence why I said you could throw bad animation at "some" of them.
I wouldn't personally. Not because I like IBO, but because I mostly found it kind of boring, and while I finished watching the first season as it aired, I never watched the second because I didn't enjoy the first. It's well enough made, and plenty of people seem to enjoy it, but it never clicked with me outside the first few episodes (as in, maybe the first 3 or 4). I recall an interview/article after season one finished where they talked about how Naze had originally been introduced as someone meant to betray Tekkadan after accepting them because they invaded his ship, and honestly, that sounds far more interesting to me since it gives Orga both an aspirational figure and an enemy for dramatic purposes. A character he can take both good and bad from. As is, Naze was just as kind of bland good guy, who papered over a lot of the potential problems for half the season.
Beyond that, I haven't seen it since it aired so I don't really feel that well placed to criticize it, since I barely recall it. I know it bored me, but don't really remember why.
Graham was great in S1 but I don't know what they were thinking when they decided to turn him into a mentally ill weeaboo
Frontal was too based for UC. Too bad he got yeeted by Newtype magic.
I'd say Zechs has a more satisfying conclusion to his character arc than Char. Having a better (and not dead) waifu didn't hurt either.
>pedophillia: the show
I mean among the animated ones, he played an unique role.
Definitely not. IBO was trash in general, and he stands out as one of the worst
I don't understand this sentiment. It wasn't superb or anything, but I would say it was easily tied for the best best TV Gundam of the 2000s and up.
I would disagree. Theres just so much about IBO thats bad, from its characters, especially the protagonist, to its plot, to its writing.
Seed/Destiny and Age aren't particularly good, but what makes IBO so bad is more than just a bad plot.
SEED, Destiny and AGE are all more than bad plot too. There's plenty of bad characters and bad writing among all 3 and you could throw bad animation, bad mechanical design and a few other accusations at some of them too.
>bad animation
You can say a lot if things about Age, but you can't really say it had bad animation
Well then, let me ask you this: In what ways would you say IBO is better than those? Because I struggle to.
Age has inappropriately superior animation at many points. It's actually quite frustrating.
AGE and SEED have some of the best mechanical design in all of Gundam.
Age also has some of the best animation in the series.
Age is nowhere near as bad as people say it is.
The finale arc is bad, but the rest of the show is a solid experience.
Seed is fine storywise it’s really just some of the animation that sucks.
Disagree personally. While AGE's mechanical design for grunts isn't bad and I love some of the more inhuman designs like the Wrozzo, none of it really hits for me and the Gundams and other one off units (like SID) are pretty meh. SEED I just don't care for in general. The grunts are kind of boring, and the one off units tend towards being overly busy. As to the actual show, I think SEED is mediocre and got bored of Destiny about 15 episodes in and have never finished it, but I think AGE is probably a low point for the franchise in general.
Not just Kio's arc either, since that's usually where people place blame, and I wouldn't even place Kio in the show's top 5 problems personally, but throughout the entire show. The more I think about the parts that are boring, the more stupid and annoying they are. Meaning it's both bad and boring, in my opinion. I think Build Fighters Try is the only other work I'd put on it's level. On the other hand, SEED is just kind of a mediocre re-tread of 0079 for the first half, and then while it diverges in the second half, nothing it does is particularly interesting. Bombastic yes, but not actually interesting. Very popcorn movie drama. Or soap opera drama, I guess.
Feldt followed him around briefly because he looked like his brother, so he kissed her out of the blue before asking her out on a date and when she got indignant he flat out told her to stop treating him like his brother. There's a few scenes like that early on. The problem is, the show wants to have it's cake and eat it too. Putting aside that they're identical twins, you also get scenes like him asking the Haro if his brother had a phrase he'd say before shooting on his first proper mission (rescue Allelujah) and then saying the same thing. Does he want to be his own man or not, show?
Every time I see people crapping on IBO on here all I see is people adamantly saying it's bad, and then not every elaborating on what that means. I've seen large rants where is basically just a guy picking out each individual part of the plot to add more words to their rant and saying it's bad. Bad is never advanced upon, it means nothing. These criticisms mean nothing
One of the things that make it bad is how awful of a protagonist it has. He is barely a character of his own.
The next, and probably the biggest is, is how it's writing goes. On one hand, it wants to subvert standard Gundam tropes but only for the sake of subverting and not offering any critique, just wanting to do the opposite. It's also really fricking bad with how it telegraphs things, and while it's death flags are obvious points, my favorite is still
>"I, Akihiro, am going to suddenly remember my younger brother who I haven't brought up in a previous episode in anyway."
>"Which means that I, Akihiro's little brother suddenly appears! And as an enemy!"
I can go on. But as cheap as it's telegraphs are, it's writing that seeks to subvert for the sake of it, to be the "Anti-Gundam" is the main reason.
Yeah the series felt oddly childish like that, despite how seriously it took itself most the time.
Same with two of the villains being a pig man and a snake man, just cause.
There's a lot of people who praise it for being "darker and grittier" on a surface level, but it's really only in a really juvenile way.
Even the fanservice was lackluster.
Mika being one note is the whole point of his character. He’s lost all his humanity and has no place he belongs but in the battlefield.
Tekkadan as a whole is also an extension of that, they never grew out of their initial goals, they just kept aimlessly expanding until they stepped on the toes of someone too big to handle and got squashed.
>Mika being one note is the whole point of his character. He’s lost all his humanity and has no place he belongs but in the battlefield
>It's okay that the MC is a shitty protagonist because being a shitty character is the point
Making something bad on purpose doesn't make it good
>me when i dont get character writing
stop talking like an underage twitter homosexual
>Mika being one note is the whole point of his character. He’s lost all his humanity and has no place he belongs but in the battlefield.
And it could have been a story about him regaining his humanity and finding a real place to belong rather than constantly being dependent on his onii-chan to tell him what to do, which would have actually been interesting, but it wasn't.
That was already done in Wing and 00.
IBO is more interesting for exploring the other option.
No. The other option was to have him be as boring as frick which is not interesting in the slightest. Just because you can subvert something doesn't mean it's a good idea.
I literally see people saying why they dislike it in this thread, before you even posted.
Anon only has the patience to read comments under 15 words.
its shit
I thought the romances sucked ass and with little payoff.
Upon review I didn’t find IBO to be that bad.
It has very obvious flaws that agitate me like the poor foreshadowing, and jarring tonal shifts that certain characters like Carta and Naze’s harem introduce.
And it’s mechanical animation is terrible most of the time, but overall it’s far from the worst Gundam has to offer.
And outside of just Gundam it’s not a particularly bad anime.
>but overall it’s far from the worst Gundam has to offer.
See, I see this defense a lot, and I need to ask
If IBO isn't the worst, then what is it better than? Because to me, it's not better than anything else in the series that comes to mind.
Not him but for me the worst Gundam will always be Destiny and 08th MS team.
>Destiny
>08th MS team
And in what way was it better than either of those?
NTA and I thought 08th MS Team was fine so frick that anon but IBO did not suffer from blatant main character jacking and stock footage.
Unicorn and anything else Fukui is responsible for.
ending
>>Epic and emotional sequences
plays
>>IBO ending
Yeah i will stick with Unicorn. You can have your Gay Blooded Orphans.
>Unicorn
>dude Newtype magic time travel lmao
kys
I really don’t see why people hated Unicorn’s ending, it’s not like it was the first time the uc pulled magic technology or Newtype abilities out of its ass.
I’m convinced if Tomino had written the same thing these people would be worshiping it.
Unicorn was basically what would happen if you took a Tomino plot/concepts and let someone direct them in a more cinematic(and competent) style.
>dude Newtype mindbreak lmao
>dude Newtype astral projection lmao
>dude Newtype telekinesis lmao
>Unicorn was basically what would happen if you took a Tomino plot/concepts and let someone direct them in a more cinematic(and competent) style.
That's hathaway. I don't see the tomino-ness in Unicorn at all.
Yeah, I'm sure Tomino would write Imperial Japan wankery, complete with post-WWII rape camps, I mean, post-OYW rape camps.
Dipshit.
>Unicorn
>Imperial Japan wankery
Ah, another tard who missed the trees for the forest. Works like Turn A must be Imperial Japan wankery too, right?
Japan
characters are either Caucasian or Black
Every Unicorn complainers are morons and you proved it.
The really silly part is that the rape camps aren't even a thing; at least within the Unicorn OVA anyway. Maybe it's a thing in the novels, but if it was, then it was changed for animation anyway. Federation forces occupied and then slaughtered the inhabitants of Globe City in Side 3, in Zinnerman's case, Marida was a child prostitute and Angelo was sexually abused by his father in law.
All of which are things Tomino would write, but at least 2 of which are things he did write. The Federation slaughtered citizens on 30 Bunch, which kicked off the Gryps conflict within Zeta Gundam, and Lalah was a child prostitute going by the backstory he wrote on the novel about Char's meeting her. I can't think of any instances of him writing sexual abuse by family, in Gundam or his other shows/novels, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he had either because it's certainly not outside the pale of the other stuff he's written.
Not him but this is a moronic way of arguing that point.
Do you not know what an allegory is?
>>dude Newtype mindbreak lmao
>>dude Newtype astral projection lmao
>>dude Newtype telekinesis lmao
Yes. Those are all things established by the very same man who created Newtypes in the first place, not some hack fanfiction "writer", they all also involve traditional mental powers instead of idiotically overpowered nonsense like time travel, aging mobile suits, or growing crystals on your mobile suit (???)
Not to mention even by the time he was working on F91 and Victory Tomino was already moving on from Newtypes, which really just comes to show how childish and retrograde Fukui's mentality was when writing that drivel.
Ghosts fueling technology is a traditional mental power? Never mind questioning how "making yourself invincible" or "using telekinesis to throw an asteroid out of orbit after it's crossed the terminal line" isn't over powered. I also wouldn't say "but Tomino eventually moved on from Newtypes" negates the fact he did any of it either. Or that Tomino and a host of other people, many into their 40s at the time, writing about those things is any less childish than Fukui doing so a few decades later.
Seed Destiny, Wing, Victory, Try, F91 and just a notch above AGE.
All of those are better than IBO
>And it’s mechanical animation is terrible most of the time
I'm still confused why they picked gundams that are ridiculously hard to animate with exposed pistons and a huge emphasis on actual physical guns with physical shells instead of lasers and a huge emphasis on melee combat
They're all great sounding ideas but it makes it much harder to animate, it sounds like a gimmick that was approved because it makes fricking great marketing points, and you can see them choke on it
I am also to this day confused why they had an entire protagonist force of physically fit, physically capable, military trained people shown doing hard labor and physical activity, but not a single scene of hand to hand combat or actual gun combat
This feels like a bunch of concepts made for an amazing OVA rather than a network show
>but not a single scene of hand to hand combat or actual gun combat
This is a problem accross Gundam in general.
Unicorn and Hathaway are the only entries I can remember having notable hand to hand action sequences.
Yeah it's weird they wanted such complicated mecha to animate, with animation team that was less willing to pull their weight than whoever worked on AGE or G-reco.
The seemingly random shooting of Lafter on the space colony was pretty absurd and jarring even by the plot that was going on. The second part was the complete lack of medical care, which was shown multiple times (Takaki/Chad/Ein) being put in the magical med-bed which could have easily been used on her dumb ass as well. It just seems like an oversight on killing a character, although I guess she was a Hikasa Yoko girl so she had to go out in a crappy fashion anyways.
Are you moronic or did you actively not pay any attention to the show?
How come she didn't get a med bed and then died like a b***h in the build a bear workshop when other characters who get fricked up lived?
She was shot in the head you dumb hick. Why on gods green earth would you even think it was "random" either?
What this guy said
, plus mention that it is very clear that whoever wrote the script of this shlock clearly wanted MC to be femon, but got lauged at by thhe production.
And it clearly shows in form Kudelia who happens to author's self intrest gets to have half the screen time and somehow wastes every second of it. As a trade off actual MC and rest of main cast gets to have no development of their own. Mika is essencially a lapdog.
IBO and SEED:D is a proof that women should not have agancy in anything mecha related ever again. It's the one thing Tomino was always right about. But it seems sunrise just doesn't learn.
> It's the one thing Tomino was always right about.
He’s literally tried to get a female mc for Gundam twice.
And Turn A had a couple of female writers too.
Tomino’s opinions are the complete opposite of what you’re assuming.
When has he tried, according to you? Cause it's widely rumored he wanted one in Turn A, but even the earliest concept art is of a male main character, so that appears to be bunk. Tomino was also allowed to do a lot on Turn A that he was refused before or others would never do, so the idea he couldn't get Banrise to agree to a female main character is pretty suspicious without some source. He was able to keep the Gundam out of the first episode entirely for instance (most of the second too), which he was refused on Victory. He also was allowed to hire a foreign mechanical designer, which it's doubtful many could get away with.
He has already done it with G-Reco though
Are you going to keep making this joke, or do you actually want this point taken (and dismissed) seriously?
What joke? Both Aida and Bellri are the main characters of G-Reco
No, Bellri is the main character. Aida is a main character, along with Raraiya and others, but Bellri is the main character and/or protagonist. We see the story through his eyes, he gets the lion's share of the show's focus, he is the one who is responsible for settling a lot of the show's
mecha conflict and he is also the one who most exemplifies the shows theme about seeing the world for yourself, since he starts out with a very sheltered view and has his eyes opened throughout before going to see the world on his own in the epilogue. Aida already knew at least some of the truth before the show even begins and takes on a more diplomatic role throughout, suiting her role as secondary and supplement to the protagonist.
Her role is not secondary though. She's actually the one that drives G-Reco's plot forward. It was her decision to go to Towasanga and Venus Globe.
Pay attention next time.
Someone being the protagonist isn't determined by who drives the plot forward, it's determined by whose perspective the show follows. It could have been following a random grunt with no impact on the story and that grunt would still be the protagonist.
Thank you for debunking the misinformation, Deacon!
What I'm getting from this is that you don't know what a protagonist is. Thank you for informing everyone.
The show's relative focus on Aida v Bellri can be seen in how it treats the introduction of their supporting structure. Bellri gets a full introduction of himself, his training within the Capital Guard, his motivation to help his mother, his friends (Luin, Noredo and Luin) and relationship to them etc. Aida basically drops out of the sky and we don't even get a good view of her relationship with her lover before he's killed. The guy's biggest characterization is "dated Aida". It's a pretty stark difference in priority.
Hell, you might even be able to simplify it because after the guy is killed Aida is the who has to accept Bellri, despite Bellri killing him. There's narrative cause for it, but Aida is the who learning to accept Bellri, which puts focus on him and her relationship to him rather than the other way around; which again, puts priority on Bellri. I'd also point to how a lot of Aida's arc is suggestions and stuff happening off-screen, while there's more focus on the resolution of Bellri's problems and character growth.
Based on what he says in the Turn A no Iyashii book the Dianna and kihel plot line and characters were the first concepts he came up with for Turn A, the whole story is written around them and even in the final version of Turn A they have as much if not more more agency and relevance to the story as Loran.
In G-Reco Aida was also a much more important character to the main events of the story than Bellri, and the movies even give her more screen time and development. Bellri loses much relevance pretty early on.
The fact a character or characters have more agency, character growth or plot relevance than the protagonist does not mean that the creator really wanted them as the protagonist and wasn't able to swing it. Neither Dianna or Kihel are pilots, at least as we have them, so they couldn't be the protagonist of a mecha show. By that metric, Sochie, who also has at least as much agency and relevance, would be the protagonist.
Some stories are written with a static protagonist though; someone who is already finished their growth, and whose presence exists to inspire that growth in others. Loran is a good person, and the center of the show morally. The rest of the cast are improved by knowing him, rather than him improving over the course of the story.
You've provided 2 possible cases according to your own logic, but no actual source or proof. So personally, I wouldn't take it as counting for shit. Tomino already had a female protagonist; Hime in Brain Powerd. So if he wanted one in Gundam, especially in shows where he either already got away with a lot or the suits weren't terribly invested in the show's fate, then he'd probably have done it.
But he already did
A mecha show’s MC doesn’t need to be a pilot. It’s become a convention but that’s not a hard rule.
It's not a hard rule, no; it's just a lot harder to include mecha action efficiently if your main character isn't a mecha pilot since you, by definition, your protagonist the person you spend the most time focused on and thus, if your main character isn't a mecha pilot then either you're not focusing on the mecha action during battles a lot of the time or don't have a lot of battles. And, even if you do have mecha battles, then the protagonist is probably going to be doing something less visually and dramatically exciting than a secondary character during those battles. Which, again, not a rule; just not a great dramatic or narrative decision.
Since you say it though, can you give me a list of all the mecha shows where the main character isn't a mecha pilot? I'm sure some exist, but they're rare and I want to know how many you can name.
> women should not have agancy in anything mecha related ever again. It's the one thing Tomino was always right about.
You should stop projecting your politics onto people you don't know. Tomino hired women to write on Zeta, ZZ, Brain Powerd, Turn A Gundam and King Gainer at the very least. Said women wrote about a fifth of Brain Powerd, Turn A and King Gainer and about half if Zeta and ZZ. A woman, Hime, is the main character of Brain Powerd, and both Dianna and Kihel have more narrative agency and character development than Loran in Turn A Gundam.
Space Guts felt more of an MC than Mika
not the best char clone but certainly the biggest char CLOWN
That's kinda cute.
He's like if Char had his CCA mental breakdown at the end of 0079. There is that Char finesse that's missing there.
Unless you consider oddballs like Katejina or Harry Ord Char clones, Zechs is the only real choice Gundam-wise. Certainly not Graham and whatever the hell his story was supposed to be in the end.
Some of non-Gundam ones like Lelouch outedge Zechs though.
That isn't Harry Ord.
Harry Ord is more of a Quattro clone.
There are no bad Quattro clones.
Alex Dino says otherwise
Honestly that always felt more like a reference to me than an attempt at an actual Quattro type identity, like I don't think that disguise lasted two episodes.
He's enjoyable, but he isn't Rau.
This show never failed to make me feel entirely alienated.
At least most the characters got a bad end.
The sheer scale of his stupidity at the end outdid them all, that's for sure.
As someone who never really felt the inclination to sympathize with the Tekaddan very deeply, I still thought the ending was very strange.
After all that, the vibe I was getting was "The nail that sticks out gets hammered". Okay? I don't feel like we needed such an extended show to get to that message.
I think it feels disjointed because the people working on it had two completely different visions for the series, like what's his name wanting Tekkadan to be viewed as unsympathetic while Okada felt the opposite.
I had long stopped caring about Tekkadan by the ending, so them losing doesn't bother me, but you can definitely see that his view of how he wanted Tekkadan portrayed wasn't working out because others wanted something different. There's definitely other areas where you can see him and Okada were definitely in opposition.
McG should have lived and ended up in jail to give his e-girl fiancee hope
Everyone making Pedo jokes are moronic. Macky meant every last word he said to Almeria and woudlve treated her like an actual princess, as promised. No creepy ulterior motives, he just has childish dreams and perceptions of his perfect world
>no creepy
sure
>ulterior motives
maybe - if he needed to use/sacrifice her to stay in control after winning he very likely would
No. Anyway, I was interested in seeing him win. Would be nice if they did something cool with Almiria in the future.
Chocochar is not even close to the best Char Clone. Zechs, Katejina, Graham, and Rau are all better.
I like how Mask is designed to be as uncool as possible
That distinction goes to Job John actually
For me, it's Rau. It's Char in unfiltered, nihilist mania.
Accept no substitutes.
There's only one good psuedochar.
>OP is about Char clones
>discussion is about g-wrecko
kill all g-wrecktardcancers
Anything other than early UC and CC are trash.
You best not be shitting on G, frickface.
G shits on itself enough for me.
As expected from the shit for brains.
>OP is about Char clones
>CHAR IS A PEDO GUYS
Also, everyone already agreed he was barely a char clone.
Galieo is the best one.