Was it a mistake to bring him back from the dead?

>rivalry with dick batman
>clean ass color scheme
>traumatized codependent russian teenage sidekick with a slasher villain face (hot)
>unapologetically edgy and ultraviolent
I really didn't like Morrison's take on Jason back in the day but looking back he had some good ideas. The vlogger thing and Jason looking like Rorschach under the mask was stupid though.

I don't think he handled the so called rivalry between Jason and Dick well. Winick actually handled it better in the streets run red storyline.

I personally like it but I never been a fan of Jason but Jason turning out to be an crazy schizo makes sense with his character given how inconsistent he was written as Robin, he was basically bipolar as Robin.

Not gonna lie, I preferred the time he was Gun Batman.

They ended up making that him, he swaps out with Clayface because the UtRH writer hated the copout.

I always liked this retcon. Hush actually had some better stories later but this was such a frustrating copout after such a great cliffhanger ending.

No, but it wasn't that well-put together and the rest of post-crisis is even worse. The real mistake was to retcon him as the bad Robin who deserve his death after DitF. It's was a shit move from editorial and now their heroes are the biggest buttholes for spitting on a kid's grave to avoid taking the blame in this tragedy.

>morrisongay

>anyone
No, only his haters whose opinions shouldn't count.

>never mind the fact that every attempt at making him a villain has failed and bringing him back was definitely a big hit for DC
This. DC doesn't even have many young popular characters so having Jason around is a win for them.

Besides, what would be the point of keeping him dead with a Robin running around and them refusing to let Batman carry any blame for what happened to Jason?

Hilariously, they keep using O'Neil quote about why he should stay dead and they are unaware that he himself wasn't against bringing back Jason and know that it would eventually happen. He was only against it happening too soon after his death.

Why lie?

Are you trying to get attention by lying?

I can't tell if you are serious or a troll.

It was a mini that was close to ending. Trying to use this as proof that he sells worse than any bat character is idiotic and reaching. Never mind the fact that we literally have no accurate stats about how books are selling.

You still going on about it? Move on and get over yourself.

now say it without crying

I can't be a hater when Jason whole character is, writers don't know what to do with him.

Jason been like since the start from Dick clone to Happy kid sidekick in Detective but edgy teen in Batman to dead to bought back as an solo anti hero but Batman villain to just being a villain to the Batfamily to being an schizo wannabe Batman to being an Rick Flag type with a team to making it more an family thing to being a member of the Batfamily trying to redeem himself and whatever else. Jason Todd is a fricking mess of a character compared to legit anyone else in the Batfamily.

I don't think he is a mess at all and generally find him to be the most interesting character out of all batfamily characters. There's a reason why he quickly become popular after his big return despite the fact that DC didn't intend for that to happen and still to this day pretty popular and more so then most bat characters or even a lot of DC heroes.

>you can like Jason sure but he was never a good Robin even Stephanie was a better Robin
You clearly never read a single Jason Robin story so you don't get to complain about "how much of a mess he is".

Posting one page doesn't mean that you did and your pervious comment makes it clear that you didn't. Did you know that Jason saved Superman and Wonder Woman? How many times he saved Batman's life? How he helped the Titans and how he was the one who pushed Roy to find his daughter? How many people he saved? About how nobel his death was? He was never a bad Robin.

How would you know that when you didn't know about any of this? and he actually was.

Jason being the sweet wholesome Robin WAS his own character. Dick as Robin was far more snarky and short tempered, and by the 60's-80's was basically Spider-man lite until the NTT.

There's like an revised history of people trying to say Jason was good actually like [...] there's a reason fans killed him off.

fans killed him off because they didn't want Robin, period . even then it took someone cheating to bring the numbers over the edge.Fan reaction and sales isn't the best metric for quality. The englehart/Rogers Batman didn't sell that well initially, either.

There is that story about DC editorial looking who would get AIDS in a story and the ballot was stuffed with Jimmy Olsen and "Robin".

They didn't. Tim was actually hated at the beginning, but DC kept pushing him hard enough until people accepted. It help that Batman was allowed to be solo and Robin was doing his own thing.

And now they've 180'd on that position by doing nothing with Damian at all.

Damian got pushed hard tho and he always played a center role. Jason is the least pushed Robin out of all of them which is why it's pretty poetic how he end up being extremely popular among the current young generation despite DC's lack of effort.

My bad, I didn't mean he wasn't getting pushed just that Batman and Robin hadn't been a duo in years until the recent book.

Yeah, it's this bizarre thing where despite occupying the name the entire time an entire generation has come and gone without a Batman and Robin.

People always say that, but it never made any sense. You know it's possible to write other relationships than upbeat/jokey and brooding/stoic right?

Nah.

I really cringed hard when he cried his heart out over Ra. Like, really? Or when he said how secure his about his parents' love. I mean, come the heck on.

Damian really needs a character arc addressing his past trauma. Not a redemption story about the people he's killed cause that's already been done a million times. But one that acknowledges that he's a victim of horrific abuse and even now is still surrounded by people that either neglect him or actively seek to do him harm.

You said it. I see some people complain about Jason is the one who doesn't fit, but it's actually Damian. Jason has been bonding with Dick and Tim since N52 and have been kinda of close ever since.

Probably because fans love seeing the two together which made DC focus more on their relationship. GK also helped in pushing them as brothers.

I know people love Dick and Damian but that never felt really organic to me, we're just supposed to buy that Dick, who's been absent for most of Morrison's run, cares about Damian enough to make him Robin and push Tim out. It's even weirder if you remember how much of a paranoid control freak Dick was in the 2000's where he wouldn't trust anyone with a record or bad behavior or inexperience.

>and I don't mind Damian not being close to any of them
This. If his own father have a hard liking him, it's not unrealistic for them to dislike him.

There's isn't and Damian keep making a lot of trouble for him anyway. Which is why I'm against the way some writers write together like they are overly loving father and son. There's should be more depth than this.

Were you reading Nightwing in that 00s era? Dick had just gone through that nurturing big brother arc with Ravager a few years earlier. Jason was back and evil and Dick was regretting not being closer to him when he had the chance. It was perfectly in character for Dick to want to save Bruce's son.

Bruce raised 3 boys already. He has way more experience as a father than Clark. With that said, you're completely right that Damian should be nowhere near well-adjusted, and that having Bruce ignore Damian for most of his existence only to suddenly act fatherly around him is surreal.

"I love you, but I don't like you" is the best way to describe Bruce's feeling about Damian. He feels conflicted about him because he needs to love him because he is blood son, but he can't bring himself to like him. This is why I couldn't buy the way Tomasi wrote Batman's grief about his death.

I think it's, but I'm not sure from which comic.

That's the fault of the writers, not the characters. Literally any two characters can have good chemistry in the right hands.

It's barely happened at all though. They've spent the majority of their history separate from each other.

Damian got pushed hard tho and he always played a center role. Jason is the least pushed Robin out of all of them which is why it's pretty poetic how he end up being extremely popular among the current young generation despite DC's lack of effort.

As long as this is true, Jason will have a place.

> Killing Robin kills Starlin's carreer at DC
> DC never make a poll to kill another Robin after the first one blew in their face
Obviously the same people who voted to kill a Robin to get their Batman solos weren't happy about Robin 3.0, but they were less likely to risk their job for it, or couldn't do a damn thing about it.

That was Pre-crisis Jason. The blond boy raised in a circus.

Remember when he decapitated eight people and shoved their heads into a duffel bag for the lulz?
Remember when he grabbed a minigun and murdered a warehouse full of people?
Remember when he waged a war on Gotham's underworld, murdering dozens?
Remember when he bombed a shipping tanker in the Gotham harbor?
Remember when he broke into Titans Tower West and beat Drake half to death?
Remember when he went on a murder spree in NYC dressed as Nightwing?
Remember when he actually tried to murder Tim Drake in the caves under the manor?

> pretend Jason is le bad Robin
> another anon recap what Jason did when he was Robin
> but what about all these thing he did as RH?
I never see a moron so desperate to move the goalpost.

'come on that two of those don't count, everyone in the Batfamily beats the frick out of Tim Drake. I think the only one who never has is like...Duke? Maybe some of the members everyone forgets about.

It's fair given Tim beat the frick out all these characters who should've kicked his ass in the 90's but that was just writers trying to be like ''SEE ROBIN COOL HE'S NOT LIKE JASON SEE'' and work on them lmao.

Jason shouldn't be able to kill Tim cause Tim done one thing Jason never has done actually multiple times....
beat the Joker

>Dick clone
He never was. Dick for longest time didn't even have a personality and when he started to have one, he was already older and more mature until his edgy phase in NTT. The only thing they shared was being in the circus and losing their parents and even this wasn't a copy paste because Jason's circus parents death was more brutal than Dick's.

And I know this because unlike most of you here, I actually read Jason's pre crisis stories.

Tim was fine in the 90's stuff.

>Dick for longest time didn't even have a personality and when he started to have one
last line of defense 'umm everyone else sucked too!'

>writers don't know what to do with him.
Then if you truly don't care, the answer is not to make him a villain, again, because third time the charm or something... The answer is to not use him/shelve him.

One run where he's just trolling the frick out of the Joker and driving him berserk I feel like they could make stick for a little while. not long, but it'd be the best you could get probably get so long as you could get a writer who wanted to "deconstruct" the character or some gay shit like that. It wouldn't be great but it'd allow us to close the fricking book on it and move the frick on as compared to being perpetually fricking stuck on it like we are now.

>Anon being stuck glued to Bruce's ass has been the worst thing possible for several of those characters.
They're former bat-sidekicks. They aren't getting off the plantation. And again, that plantation is big enough to support books better than any other.
>Barbara getting moved back into Bruce's direct orbit
Pretty sure BoP was a product of Bat editorial. It certainly started that way, being the idea of a bat-editor and launched by a batbook writer.

Jason already was over the Joker before Johns. He is the one who actually brought Jason's obsession with the Joker back when he didn't care about him since UTRH.

>And some Jason fans think Zdarsky hates Jason
Most not some, but you haven't read Cheers so you can't talk.
> Jason breaks in tear for killing one scumbag who drugs his own kid to not deal with them
It's even more funny to think about now when Zdarsky insist he is a mass murderer later in GW.
> daddy issues the character about resume him here
> le bad Robin who badly want to brutalize a petty thief until Bruce stops him and remind 12 yo Jason he was a petty thief himself but Bruce gaves him a second chance
> Jason never do one thing right in that story
> except accept Batman and tell him he is a great guy
> also he drops the gun because he understands what Bruce means now
Whenever you think Jason is a mass murderer wo should go to jail, or an anti-hero who Bruce did dirty, Cheers is an absolute mischaracterization either way.

I don't think you actually read the story.

You're putting me a bit on the spot right now but there's been multiple stories where Jason goes around doing his own thing without any Batman interface, he doesn't even kill most bad guys, he's just violent and cares way less about their safety than the others in the Bat-Family, but he's still a hero, he may be an anti-one, but a hero nonetheless, he cares about people, there's infinite possibilities, you just have to actually put some effort into coming up with them.
Batman is inherently tied to him, but he doesn't have to show up in every Jason story to tell him that killing is le bad over a big fight.

Nta, but I personally think Jason can work in Gotham without being limited to it (I mean, the city belong more to him than any of the Robins).

As for Batman, Jason will always belong to him like every other bat character and none of them will ever be able to escape his shadow.

Then why did he spare Black Mask? Literally what did he accomplish other than escalate a meaningless gang war that got dozens of people killed? Face it man, Jason's spiel was bullshit. It was always about Bruce.

Dude he was literally a drug dealer in that story.

>Then why did he spare Black Mask?
He didn't. Bruce saved BM at the end of the story.
>Literally what did he accomplish other than escalate A MEANINGLESS GANG WAR THAT GOT DOZENS OF "BAD" PEOPLE KILLED?
You tell me.

>No. BM saved himse-
No. Bruce saved BM and that's it.
>Cause having open shootouts in the street and blowing up buildings is the best way to ensure public safety?
I don't know. Why don't you go ask Superman?

>Doesn't change the fa-
Are you fricking blinded or just a Batgay?

Uh I wasn't arguing Red Hood was a good guy. The opposite actually. This reply chain all started when I said people who think he's like The Punisher are deluded.

>but I think only comics fans truly like him.

>Jason weirdly has the most thirsty fans even more so than Dick
Thirtsty Fujos that think they can fix Jason don't count.

They're same women that complain about domestic violence but will never leave because they can fix him.

They unintentionally turned him into a joke and it won't be easy for him recover from this.

I think it's more likely they were just covering their asses because they weren't specifically trying to be faithful to any one comic. The show rewrote or reemphasizes traits for all the characters as is anyway. The show was written by a rotating staff of writers who likely weren't super familiar with comics. Adam Beechen got a job on the Tim book based off his writing on the cartoon. To an extent DC and especially wB sees the robins as interchangeable.

Yeah, and? DC love having the Robin take each others identities.

And yet, it wasn't enough for people to think he is Dick or make him popular among them. They only him as Robin.

Long hair and gauntlets as well as the chunkier belt honestly really helps the bluebird design now that I sit down and look at it. Helps break up the "generic Batman type knock off" look.

What are you upset at me for? It's not my fault that people are having hard time figuring it out.

Dick was King's favorite, but I guess he lost interest in him.

Besides, this is kinda of a silly point because you act like Zdarsky was forced to make the comparison because he had no other choice when it's not true because he could have easily avoided making the comparison if he didn't want to. He also addressed Bruce's grief about Jason prior to this so it clearly international.

I liked the scene where you have Tim talking to Batman after leaving the hospital (where batman apparently never once bothered to visit him) and he was like "Wait, are you thinking about Jason and Alfred?" when he saw him in a bad mood.

>Batman wasn't exactly himself
See, that's how bad zdarsky is. Last issue of GW specificaly address that zurr hasn't taken hold of Bruce yet. It's just Bruce, albeit slightly unhinged.
It wasn't my point though. I'm just saying in one story Jason literally break in tears when he kills an absolute scumbag, in the other he is a mass murderer (nobody dispute that label in the story btw) so I don't think it's that weird for this batfam.
> saved the kid
It's more Jason fixing a situation he half-created by killing the dad as far as this story goes.
>That didn't happen.
It did, I was just speaking in hyperboles. Jason has a whole speech as he overcomes the drug or when he explains why he'll drop the guns from now on.

>The new arc
Now that's a comic I'm not and won't be reading.

>The kid wasn't in danger because
I never said the kid was in danger because his dad died. Cheers is just Jason fricking up a lot until it get Bruce captured and he has to fix his messes and the rest.
>he didn't do it for Batman
Didn't say that. I say he understands where Bruce come from now. Cheers is basically explaining us that Jason never cared if the bad guys he killed had family until now because they had a gun pointed at him, and has a breakdown over this one case at the start of Cheers. It's also why he agree he should change at the end.

>did you actually read the story
I wish I didn't.

>You keep jumping from one random point to another
So are you.
>what's your point anymore.
That Cheers and zdarsky are shit.

This is pretty a good page and it's good thing for Jason to reach this point.

Tell me again why Jason fans are angry about this? Do you people want Jason to be a trigger happy?

>Do you people want Jason to be a trigger happy?
What kind of question is that? I want him to say frick off to Bruce and his sect.
>it's good thing for Jason to reach the point where he agrree with Bruce for hass-pull reasons
Amazing.

He's been a good boy for years and years. Then he goes through an arc that beats on him to be a good boy, which is what he's already been doing.

He lashed out as Robin because of rapists and serial killers. This story changes it to a bunch of poor desperate thieves. So that Daddy Moneybags can scold him for his privilege.

He became a bad guy because he suffered and died doing things Batman's way. Now this kid's dad was trying to murder the kid and the mom. They are objectively better off because Red Hood murdered the dad. The object lesson doesn't make sense here.

If he murdered the kid's dad with self-righteousness, then later found out that he made a black-and-white judgment call and truly fricked up, then it'd make sense. But he murders the dad, and immediately regrets being impulsive, which has pretty much never been a flaw in the 20 years since he's been Red Hood.

What is the point of the story? What does anybody get out of it?