Was Lucas aware of the "contradiction" between his scene and the prequels and just making a point of how easily brainwashed the masses are?
Was Lucas aware of the "contradiction" between his scene and the prequels and just making a point of how easily brainwashed the masses are?
What? Elaborate
This officer mocks Vader for following the "ancient religion" of the force, when it was only 20 years ago, and the officer would have grown up in a time when the Jedi were a prominent part of the Republic.
Han did too, let's remember.
Not so far-fetched. Since Jedi were outlawed, the imperials would have grown with propaganda mocking them. IRL during Elizabeth I years Protestant in England felt contempt for Catholics, and they were Catholics just a generation ago
And no one thought Catholics were a myth
comparatively it be more akin to don juan and carols Castaneda .
dmt cults of today are just rehash of ancient rituals .
CIA documents prove plenty parts of the agency some of their driving decisions were made under the influence of DMT .
Not true.
Their was a huge underground catholic movement and it was well remembered.
There was even an armada by the Spanish to invade and restore Catholicism.
Totally different.
And? He said that Vader was pretty much all that remains of that religion after he and the empire hunted down all the others. The Jedi religion was thousands of years old by that point.
It's like if Hitler was sucessful but then refered to Judaism as an ancient religion. Something that was/is facing extinction doesn't stop it being old.
The implication is clearly that the officer is fully unaware that Vader can magically choke you.
The bigger implication from the force choke scene is that Vader was originally on more equal footing with the generals, admirals and officers corps in general in the original movie. And even subservient to people in charge of sectors of the galaxy or the death star in this case like Tarkin.
Vader is basically the Emperor's glowBlack person as far as I understand it, he's there doing his job but can't really overrule the generals/admirals directly
Vader is explicitly on tarkin’s leash in the movie, he is somewhat apart from the normal chain of command, he is then unleashed in ESB
By this logic this is contradicted by the very next movie where Vader is choking every single officer
In a new hope Vader has less of the emperor's favor compare to Tarkin. In Empire Strikes back Tarkin is dead and the emperor has given Vader more power to hunt rebels
No he's just saying little tricks and gimmicks like that don't have any power in a galactic civilization
He is then proven wrong when Luke manages to blow up the DS through his belief in the force.
Pfff he was just lucky nerd
The point is that the shot is literally impossible to do, even with a targeting computer, but Luke manages to do it anyway because he believes.
Yes thats the point of the movie
That was always my thought.
Nobody in A New Hope ever questioned the existence of Jedi. They are introduced by Obi wan as guardians of peace in the old Republic which was recently replaced by the Empire. Possibly after something called the "Clone Wars". Obi wan was general and jedi knight in this war. Where the frick do you people get this headcanon?
and he was a good friend.
Yeah, I don't know where people got the idea that the Jedi were forgotten.
Keep up dummy, they question the existence of the Force. People are pointing out that the Jedi used the Force all the time. So it's not that the people questioned the Jedi's existence, but that they questioned the powers they were constantly using existed.
It's like accepting the samurai existed but denying the existence of katana
The only person that questions its existence is Han. Everyone in that meeting room clearly knows what the force is, none of them are all that surprised when Vader chokes him with his mind.
The way Tarkin looks at Motti when he's choking him is the look of someone who doesn't believe what they're seeing. The specifically focus on his reaction as well.
The way Tarkin talks to Vader makes it seems like he's done this before.
Maybe. But Tarkin isn't the kind of guy to suddenly veer off on a tangent asking Vader about the force and how it works. Despite his puzzlement of the power he knows it's getting in the way of the meeting and gets on with it. Also I rewatched the scene and the film also focuses on Tagge giving a similar look.
Han denies the existence of something that controls his destiny, he doesnt deny the existence of jedis or force powers, people need to think a little before watching these movies, it seems even star wars is too hard for some.
>"I've never seen anything to make me believe there is an all powerful force controlling everything."
>"It's all a bunch of simple tricks and nonsense."
Yes, and?
The second sentence is referring to the force powers Luke is trying to use.
yes, your point? why would han solo have had interacted with jedis or the force?
God you don't have to stretch so hard for an obvious retcon Captain Autismo
>Han denies the existence of something that controls his destiny, he doesnt deny the existence of jedis or force powers
Kind of. The implication is that the Jedi's mumbo jumbo is nothing special and can be explained through other means, not necessarily a universal force.
All the force tricks can be rationally explained away as self-delusion and the power of belief, with the notable exception of the floating chair (which is why that scene sucks).
Outside coruscant and the educated elite, most people never even saw a Jedi, they were mythical figures
I've never seen a navy seal, that doesn't make me think they're mythical beings
Your sad devotion to your toxic masculinity has not helped you close the pay gap, nor has it given you strength enough to.... AAAH YOU BROKE MY ARM
Lmao this tard still believes the seals are real
>Be a good boy!
>Listen to the government!
>Or else... Eummm
>Or else the bad green men will come in the night and raid your compound! No you cant see them they only come at night and leave without a trace!
Grow up
Didn't Vader just wreck the shit out of a bunch of rebels earlier that day as seen at the end of Rogue One. It's not like he's hiding his power levels pulling ships out of the sky and shit.
Government officials deniying recent history? the chinese do it all the time
He's right though, it was an ancient religion. Just because it was extinguished only 20 years prior doesn't change that fact. It'd be like if Christianity suddenly died out and 20 years later there was one Christian man working in the government and someone called it an ancient religion. He's right.
That's obviously not the point and you know it. It's more like if Christianity suddenly died out and 20 years later people were like "Pffft you believe they used to build big stone buildings called CHURCHES that's dumb"
People don't believe women exist anymore
Sounds like something the soviets would have said if they conquered the world.
You can stretch and say they could've put it in propaganda but there's no way high-ranking military officers would share the delusion
>smug EJW
The average human never saw a Jedi or anything related to Force usage outside of whatever research material might be available to them if they're lucky enough, even in the Republic times you are unlikely to encounter it. Jedi only even came close to public attention during the Clone Wars because of their increasing role as Clone Commanders likely by Sidious' design. The Jedi were reclusive and aloof to galactic society then Sidious arranged for them to sit at the head of this suddenly huge Clone army, setting them up to be propaganda'd as traitors overthrowing the senate. I imagine the unaware Jedi wanted to make it so average people still never really saw any Force usage in action unless necessary. Thus people probably didn't think too hard about it once the Jedi were branded as rebels and slaughtered. Then anybody trying to make it in Imperial society probably went through further heavy brainwashing to dismiss the Force or hold the idea with contempt.
what are you people moronic? calling it ancient implies it's ancient in origin not in practice
and btw he meant sith not jedi, in that scene vader is refered as a sith lord
UUUUUHH NO BRO IT IS EXPLAINED IN BOOK 8 OF THE DODEKALOGY OF EVIL EMPIRE: THRAWN'S REVENGE FROM THE GRAVE HOW THE EMPIRE BRAINWASHED EVERYONE TO BELIEVE THE FORCE IS BOGUS I BET YOU LIKE THE SEQUELS homosexual
>ask a question
>the EU answers it
>get mad
I don't understand you homosexuals, that's what the EU is for.
>franchise is illogical shit but the extended franchise tries and fails to answer questions therefore it's good
lol
That is not a contradiction. The Empire's official policy (in ANH, the EU actually -is- a mess of contradictions frankensteined together through sheer religious belief) is that the Jedi's mutant powers are obsolete.
>“Only old losers waste time on that meditation stuff. We can just build machines that blow up whole countries.”
Vader's stance is that this is dumb, the power of belief (in the force, or anything really) is far greater than the crude ability to destroy.
And it was thoroughly destroyed by science
And all those Jedi were wiped out in a single day after they failed to assassinate a defenseless old man in their clumsy coup attempt.
Clearly, they were not as powerful as the legends would have you believe.
People ta like this about Christianity and Islam.
>the Jedi aren’t ancient
The Jedi had been around for thousands of years. Something being ancient just means it’s old, not that it hasn’t existed in a long time. Are prequel haters all this dumb?
It is ancient though
I guess he is talking about how that scene implies jedi were a very rare thing to the point a very educated officer thought they were not real.
Maybe Motti's incredulity comes from mere personal animosity or contempt for Vader?
We’ll either way Vader destroyed him, which was kind of funny.
Conan Antonio Mouthy is more like it
>jedi were a very rare thing
They were generals who led clone armies? Surely it's not something that's easy to hide or forget?
dumb ass
Well it is if you have systematic brainwashing and propaganda. Similar to how america is trying to rewrite “racist” history that happened about the same time frame ago. Everyone will believe a lie if it’s told long enough.
You don't even need more than 5 years to memory hole something.
If jedi were , I don't know, only 10k, and the galaxy was inhabited by a trillion of people, seeing a jedi would have been incredibly rare.
the way he talks and acts shows that jedi and the force are something that most people dont know, its an obscure thing most people, even high ups in the military are not really aware of and dont know if its just mysticims or real power
in contrast the prequels show that jedi are or were the most important force in the universe, being literally everywhere in the senate and the republic and in the galaxy, openly influencing politics and basically no one is even surprised to see a jedi
>people call older people “dinosaurs”
>UMM NICE CONTRADICTION DINOSAURS LIVED MILLIONS OF YEARS AGO
your average star wars fan
Who are you quoting?
me
No, it makes sense. 9/11 was 20 years ago but it's long enough to "feel" like a different time even though 20 years really isn't anything
Assume this guy, as much as his hairline is fricked up, is in his mid thirties. To call the force an ancient religion is the same as the modern detachment from religion in millennials. He could be saying the force and it’s users are gone although he’s heard rumors of Vader still being proficient in it he probably hasn’t seen that or a force user and wouldn’t have had the opportunity to for at least 20 years.
Isn't it kinda stupid that Vader could force choke someone through a TV screen? We never really see any force user doing anything like that anywhere in star wars or the expanded universe
Weren't they on the same ship? Maybe he was just a floor above or something lol.
In TCW, Palpatine choked Dooku from light years away. There's no official maximum distance limit in which you can do that. Same with Luke doing his force projection.
>Your gay space magic that nobody cares about anymore is nothing compared to our new superweapon that can literally blow up planets so stfu with your chuuni bullshit while adults are talking.
This is what he said and he was correct and based. Probably sick of a having an autistic brooding incel around bringing the mood down.
The thing about that line "next to the power of the force" is he clearly means it in a metaphysical sense (Lucas never intended to have the force do stuff like Force storms) which is strange because he's basically telling Motti he should keep his faith in the force like God. So was originally the force a religion that was open to all and had more followers than just Jedi? Otherwise why would he tell him that?
kek Starwars is unique in having an uncle-ted meta element. It is both a critique of technology and industrialization, while simultaneously being a great technological achievement itself, pushing digital tech to where it is now. Ironic
He didn't care and neither should you
It was an “issue” the moment they decided that Vader was Luke’s father. Which wasn’t a plot point when ANH was filmed.
We already knew multiple jedi existed 20 years ago in ANH since Luke's father was also one according to Obi-Wan and they fought in the clone wars.
The prequels introduced just how many there were and what exact role they played.
Wrong.
The Force in "Star Wars" (retconned to Episode IV) was an ancient mysterious religion that hardly anyone knew about.
Darth Vader wasn't Luke's father, he was some butthole in a suit.
Lucas added The Force because it was popular to include mystic elements into sci-fi at that time.
It’s this. The whole point of the first Star Wars is that an ancient and powerful magic helps a plucky farm boy strike down the evil Emperor and his minions. It was meant to be one little slice of a huge decades-long war that we were never intended to learn more about. Just a little fable about a young hero overcoming tremendous odds.
I'm old enough to remember episode 1 coming out and thinking that was stupid/disappointing at the time. You got the impression in the old movies that the empire was this long-established, highly successful civilization and then found out it was only created a few years ago by people who are still alive so it all rises and collapses within a generation. Felt like the scale had been hugely reduced.
The empire IS the republic. It was militarizing during the clone wars and that military is just turned on the people.
Not really the issue. The Empire as it was presented in the OT is obviously different in just about every way to the old republic, and it's shitty that that only lasted a couple of decades. It makes it so much less cool and threatening. Then again by the time of Jedi imperial walkers were getting destroyed by teddy bears with logs so whatever
>The Empire as it was presented in the OT is obviously different in just about every way to the old republic
Was it? There was still an emperor, senators, governors, politicians, etc. Seemed pretty similar just with a gray aesthetic.
It's just a branding change and moving aliens out of the command positions.
The Empire in the OT is presented as having risen with Obi-Wan's life, and still consolidating its power to the point the Emperor only now dissolves the senate.
>presented as having risen with Obi-Wan's life
Where's that said? Not doubting you just don't know
>only now dissolves the senate.
That doesn't really suggest it's a young empire. If I read a story about the Roman Empire dissolving the senate to consolidate power under a single emperor that wouldn't mean the empire was just getting started
Tarkin specifically says the last remnant of the old republic is swept away.
Ahh gotcha thanks. But at that stage is there any reason to think they were the same state and one became the other? I'm pretty sure my impression was that it was like the Ottoman Empire sweeping in and taking over a previously free state when I first watched.
”The last remnants of the old republic has been swept away” is an indication that this is a state that is undergoing a constitutional change. There is no indication that this is an external actor that is forcing this
Even if there are seeds of the idea in the OT, the fact is that no one assumed prior to the prequels that the Republic had become the Empire within the last couple of decades. People arguing that it's a perfectly natural transition based on a few ambiguous lines are being disingenuous. Everyone thought as you did, that the Empire was a separate civilization with its own history and ideology, that the Emperor was the latest in a long line of Emperors from a royal dynasty, and so on. The prequel history of the Empire absolutely feels like a retcon, especially when we find out that the clone troopers were the first stromtroopers, a move which takes away all notions of a distinct Imperial culture.
>everyone thought like me
No.
Intentional or not, I think it's clever to have people think that there was a "good" Republic that was destroyed by the "evil" Empire, only to reveal that one seamlessly transitioned into the other, with many citizens outright celebrating it.
Same deal with Luke's father and Vader, basically. Only at a civilizational level.
One doesn't negate the other. Imperial culture exists, its the authoritarian, human supremacist and militaristic elements of the Old Republic. The Empire is just them coming into power.
But Leia is an imperial as well, representing a powerful liberal faction in the senate. How is that not also a part of imperial culture?
You're confusing different factions (specifically identifying The Empire with only the bureaucrats allied with the emperor represented by Tarkin) in order to remove blame from the liberals that were ascendant during the Republic, and still an influential part of the Empire.
In ANH, Obi-wan claims that:
1. The Jedi were guardians of the Republic
2. Darth Vader played an important role in destroying the Jedi
3. Darth Vader was his apprentice (therefore younger them him)
The obvious implication is that the Jedi and the Republic went down at the same time, and it happened only a few decades ago.
what it was never implied is that vader fell the same time he impregnanted luke's mother
>If I read a story about the Roman Empire dissolving the senate to consolidate power under a single emperor that wouldn't mean the empire was just getting started
Yes and no. The point of comparison is definitely to the roman principate, but the fact that the republic is something within Obi-wans memory and not Luke does give you some indication of how new the imperial system is. The fact that the senate is a point of discussion and imperials repeatedly ask ”what is the senate going to think about this” or that Leia’s plan is seemingly to maintain the principate and strengthen the senate shows that the system has support and the senate has real power
We don’t see much of the empire as such in the OT, apart from Tatooine, and the imperial citizens Han, Leia, and Luke.
The PT is about characterizing the empire (the republic and the empire are literally the same state) and specifically this liberal faction, what system they’re trying to reestablish (hint: it still fricking sucks),
>meanwhile trannies, gays and other degenerate things weren't a thing 25 years ago but almost nobody can remember it
>tfw you realize this whole scene was boomer vs zoomer moment
In the novel (Which is based on earlier draft) Vader moves the cup on the table with the Force to demonstrate his point. That's why Motti (In the novel it was Tagge) mocked the whole force thing as 'sorcery'
>An ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
>*moves a coffee cup*
Motti was right to mock this homosexual. How about you find some data tapes, you big black c**t?
Nihilus Force Ate planets for breakfast all the time back in the day with minimum effort. Vader was right in keeping that atheist redditor scientologist in check with based magical choking powers.
>Nihilus
Instead he was enslaved by the power he wield, lost his mind and will except hunger. Not a really good case for Siths
he wasnt really a sith, just like malak, sion and the rest, they were dark jedis, stronger in the dark side than most sith but still, not real siths
What makes one the real Sith anyway? Revan was technically a larper but he is the one influenced Bane's Rule of Two
I follow the EU and back then it was a legacy, and heritage, you couldnt just claim to be a sith, you had to descend from the first dark jedis that discovered korriban and mixed with the sith race.
Exar Kun and Uli Qel Droma were sith cause they were ordered by the ghost of Marka Ragnos but Revan was on his own.
That was until the book and the old republic in wich they make revan be an aprentice of a sith emperor in exile, but I dont like that.
I prefer to think of Revan, Malak, Traya, Sion and Nihilius are larpers, but powerful larpers none the less, more powerful than most siths.
Are you saying Kyp Durron and Tavion is more Sith than Triumvirate? I always thought this 'Nooo you must be officially ordained by prior Siths to be Sith' little stupid. I mean Mandos have been saying 'Mandalorian is a belief, not a race' for a long time. Why can't we say the same for the Sith
thats just my opinion, I like to make a difference between a dark jedi, a darksider and a sith
>imagine entering the European Parliament
>newly elected euro-MP, you are greeted and given the podium, to speak in front of 500 other people from all lands of the Union, of different ages, experience and political inclinations, some of them former ministers and heads of state
>people clap and have a smile on their faces, waiting for that all too familiar yet always fresh newbie speech, full of excitement and belief in the institutions
>the other newly-elected MPs await with curiosity at a blueprint of their turn at the podium
>you adjust the mic
>"uhmmm...Siths descend from Korriban"
>clapping is dying down, people realised that you started talking
>the front row is looking at you with confusion and disbelief at what they have just heard
>clapping has now stopped
>"originally, Siths were dark jedis"
>a silence is now dominating the hall
>a slight murmur starts forming in some pockets of the seated area
>nobody is smiling anymore
>you clearly hear someone saying loudly "who?"
>the looks are a mixture of confusion, self-doubt and dissapointment
>the silence lingers on as you have stopped talking
>finally, after a minute, murmur starts again and the president of the parliament calls for you to either adress the parliament or give up your speaking time
>But sirs, I haven't even talked about Hundred-Year Darkne..
BTFO
bot
Stay jelly
I love Star Wars so much.
No one regocnized Qui Gon in Tatooine to be a Jedi until they saw his lighsaber and force usage, the Jedi are known but it's like like 6th sense users, you'd only believe what they can do when you see it for yourself
I don't care what anyone says there is no way this scene and the prequels exist in the same universe.
why not?
why not? first of all there are a trillion people in coruscant alone, jedis were never more than 10000
in the prequels we unfortunately only see jedis interact with clones
also when he means ancient he doesnt mean it hasnt been used since ancient times but that is ancient in origin.
christianity is ancient for example
also he meant the sith religion not the jedi
I agree. People can make excuses but we all know that Lucas never had some grand plan set in stone from the beginning. Is it really that hard for people to believe this actually is just a contradiction?
that's true for vader being leia's father but not this scene that can easily be explained
only force users though
Lads I genuinely watched A New Hope for the first time in 15 years last night. I thought it was kinda shit when they get onto the death star. But what stood out massively was how creative it was, when you consider that everything is new. Firstly the creativity stands out in the Star Wars universe which is still using the exact same Characters, Planets, Technology etc. Considering this is a galaxy wide thing, it doesnt make sense why we are not constantly seeing new things in the modern content. That brings me onto my second point is that there's more creativity in this than in anything Disney has done in a decade. Financial returns and security have destroyed movie making.
It wasn't new or particularly creative. It was taking samurai movies and overlaying imagery from Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers and Metropolis. This was already pretty cliche stuff back then. Sci-fi visionaries were writers from long before that like HG Wells and by the 70s the much more advanced ideas of people like Philip K Dick were already popular.
Star Wars just did it extremely well with likeable characters, a tight plot and for the time high-quality effects.
>It wasn't new or particularly creative.
There is nothing new under the sun. Creativity is in how the old things are used and played with, how a work uses its themes. Star wars is pretty good at that.
Yes we're in agreement
If you think that star wars is good because of "likable characters, a tight plot and for the time high quality special effects", we are not wholly in agreement.
Well alright but we're agreed as far as that it wasn't coming up with fresh new ideas and imagery that made Star Wars work.
DEWN'T TRY AND SCEEEEHAH US WIF YOUR SAUCER'S WAYS, LEWD VAYDAH, YOUR ANSHIENT RELIJUN COULD NOT, ACK-
WE AIN'T SLOPPY c**tS LEWD VAYDAH
>You were saying, b***h...? I wish a motherfricker WOULD try and contest the Force, ignorant british halfgay
post the pasta
>OH, NICE, PHIL, WHY DON'T YOU HAVE A STROKE
In RL they gaslighted 7 billion people into accepting that men can become women if they choose and it only took like 10 years. This shit happens all the time. Humans are fricking moronic for the most part.
>7 billion people actually believe that
go back
I really wish I had never watched the prequels, the hints and mystery at a greater universe, elaborate backstory, and nature of the force from the originals are much cooler than the reality we wound up with
Literally shut the frick up. George Lucas's universe inspired a ton of good shit (namely KOTOR). None of Redlettermedia or any of your psued ideas were better than George Lucas's ideas.
I would prefer not knowing what "the Clone Wars" for example were to actually seeing Lucas' moronic vision
Not doing anything is both better than what was made and anyone's ideas.
“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.”
this. Look at Blade Runner, they're smart enough to mention things like "The Off World Colonies" and "C-Beams", just enough to get your imagination going. You're not bashed over the head with some awful rendition of it that looks like a playstation 2 cutscene
Imperial Officers don't really know about the Sith except for the Inquisitors who were ex-Jedi and the Dark Lord of the Sith wait
You're aware Lucas didn't write most of the original trilogy right?
Is it safe to say that every force fight boils down to this?
>I shoot lightning at you, you are dead
>nuh uh, you missed! Also I trained with a super wise master who taught me partial lightning resistance, I push you into the wall with my "force power: push".
>No, you can't I have the same power but stronger!
Ofcourse that means what we see in OPs scene is just Vader's imagination. Talking is putting a halt to it because there was some moron in the room going "Nuhhh nurrr chokey choke nuhmmmm" during an important meeting.
*Tarkin
People who criticise this scene usually conflate the things Han says with they things Motti says.
Motti never says that he doesn't believe in the Force. He justifiably mocks Vader because he shittalks the Empire's planet-destroying superweapon but had no success in beating the Rebellion either.
Are you really fricking stupid? No one denies that the Force exists, they deny that its an all-powerful entity. Motti doesn't question that Vader can throw people around, choke them or use a lightsaber. He's just claiming that its all irrelevant next to the Death Star and that none of those powers Vader had were enough for him to succeed in getting the Death Star plans back, and he's ultimately correct.
If you're talking about Han, all HE says is that the hokey religion and ancient weapons are ultimately no better than just using a blaster, and he's also right with the Prequels giving context to clear that up, with how the Jedi Order was wiped out via blaster fire.
The original and prequel trilogies were actually planned. There were a lot of alterations to the backstory, like originally there was no Republic, it was always an Empire that just went evil, then it switched to Palpatine taking over a Republic and becoming dictator, but initially he wasn't even a Force User and he was a puppet of Vader and the military officers. But ultimately the same overarching story stayed the same from the second or third drafts.
>roe overturned
>Stop ruling the country with a 200+ year old document and 2000+ years old religion even though the whole country still running on them!
>t. Liberals
I really don't see the OP's problem with the line
''Prequel hate'' is just boomer/gen X nostalgy for their childhood/teenages, as usual
Obviously in the original story layout, the era of the prequels was vague and not really planned out. Lucas probably conceived of something that was similar to what we got in the final product but with the Jedi order being much smaller and working behind the scenes, but I suppose they decided to expand it for the movies because they were the protagonists.
>Was Lucas aware
Stopped reading there. Hacks gonna hack.