Was Nocturna grooming Jason Todd?
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Was Nocturna grooming Jason Todd?
Was Nocturna grooming Jason Todd?
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Yes. She’s a villain. That’s what villains do.
She tried Steph at one pint but failed. And then she literally raped Batwoman.
That's retcon Nocturna, the original just wanted to be a mom to Jason. If Jay felt his green briefs getting tighter, that's on him.
What is a mom if not the first groomer in a young boy's life?
God, imagine them going through it a thousand times with almost no rest in four nights.
Pics?
Post Crisis Nocturna had pheromone powers.Sort of implied they make people horny. Steph had to put noseplugs on to avoid it.
She straight up said if Jason was older they'd be lovers.
truly trying to get into the batfamily by any means possible.
>it would be the same as my own attraction for--
>THE BATMAN!
Wait, did she want to frick Bruce?
More than that, also to marry him.
So you're telling me he turned down a goth vampire mommy that only wants to have a family with him as her husband and Jason as their son?
I don't think she was actually a vampire, she just got her skin bleached by a laser, or something weird like that.
You expected a major change of status quo for a A-list capeshit hero?
>He turned down a goth vampire mommy that only wants to have a family with him as her husband and Jason as their son?
God dammit, Batman! This was your opportunity!
The whole story killed sales on the Batman book, which is ironic as Doug Moench's obsession with Nocturna is why Jason Todd exists in the first place.
won't sign to do Batman unless he can do a story where a hot albino goth chick wants to steal Dick Grayson away from Bruce via adopting him, so she can force Batman to marry her.
>>Also wants to de-age Dick down to his early teens (13-14) even though DC by this point has firmly made Dick an adult with a nebulous age of 18-21 years old depending on the writer, because "Not mah Robin!".
so would frick over DC's cash cow franchise New Teen Titans, which stole Dick from the Batbooks because (at the time) Batman editorial HATED Robin and Marv Wolfman, who wrote Batman and Titans, used this hate boner, to spirit Dick out of the Batbooks so he could have free reign writing Robin in Titans.
>>DC ends up having to create Jason Todd right before Moench takes over the book and have him become Robin.
kills sales so hard with his crap that DC has to hire a big name artist (Alan Davis) to draw Detective and repurpose Frank Miller's Year One mini-series, as an arc in Batman, to stop the bleeding.
It's been a while since I read pre-Crisis Batman, but I didn't think the arc was that bad. The set up for Jason in general felt more like a slog, maybe it read better when they weren't sure if he was going to be Robin or a new mantle, but it sure drags now.
I wonder how much was just people not wanting any Robin, period. Also interesting that Moench eventually came back and had like an 8 year run in the 90's. I like him well enough but he's such an "old fashioned" writer that it's kinda funky seeing him still write the main Batbook while more contemporary writers were coming in
You mean like how when Jason was just a carbon copy of Dick with acrobat parents who weren't already dead when he was introduced but it was obvious that they'd probably die so he could become Batman's new sidekick?
Someone should just to a complete Doug Moench story time honestly?
If we can’t get a story time can we at least get a reading order for Nocturna and Jason’s bizarre adoptions arc
To be fair she was basically a spoiled rich b***h who robs her way into high society because that’s want she grew up with. Sure everyone ends up head over heals for her but Batman up till this knew that she was basically a crazier cat women
She did legitimately care about Jason though.
Unquestionably, she wanted the oto-ko don. Batman, Robin AND nightwing, airtight in every hole.
Clearly she wants to get spitroasted by both Batman AND Robin
The Dynamic DP, if you will
>You'd give Batman a run for his shadow
>I'd be real tempted
What...what did JASON mean by this?
That's a different character.
They should mix the original and this so that she’s a vampire that grooms Steph to get to Jason and then have a Francis Ford Coppola’s Bram Stoker’s Dracula brides-type situation.
You may want that, but I prefer there being two weird women going by Nocturna. One used to bang her step-brother, but then decided she wanted to marry Batman and have a Robin son, the other is a rapey lesbian vampire.
And I heard there was another universe's version of the vampire one who is/was on the main universe's Suicide Squad. So technically there's three.
Kind of? She's basically intended to be post-crisis Nocturna(kinda strange that no one did anything with the concept for well over 15 years after Crisis, honestly. Vampiress type villain for Batman seems like a given).
Of course when she showed up again(including once where she's fighting Steph, even)this story was never acknowledged.
What?
yeah she shows up in the Gotham Gazette mini. She's her Pre-crisis look again. I guess it's kinda implied that Steph's kept tabs on her now that I check it again because she says she "hasn't been active much"
Yeah, that's not the lesbian one.
Also no it wasn't rape. Or at least she says it wasn't.
That was the funniest shit ever.
As someone who read the entire Batwoman 2011 run, when Nocturna slips up on Kate, Kate is half asleep and even thinks its Maggie.
If you want to say its not rape, okay but its very much dubious consent.
She wasn’t originally just a straight vampire right?
You're gonna have to clarify what you're asking.
From what I read Nocturna wasn’t just a vampire until New 52. She just had a weird night obsession gimmick with an obsession for living the high life but wasn’t an actual vampire originally right?
Yes, she got her skin turned super pale and photosensitive because of some accident with a laser, or something like that.
Turning her into a vampire actually just seems dumb in hindsight also pairing her up with Kate Kabe was even more bizzare in hindsight
The vampire shit comes from the fact that Bruce Timms wanted to make her suddenly be a vampire (even though she wasn't one in the comics) in BTAS, though it's obvious Timm confused her with another Batman villainess from the 30s who was a vampire. And it stuck because BTAS=Gospels even though the episode was banned.
Also, Moench was going to be kicked off the Batman books by issue #400 reguardless due to low sales. Moench MIGHT have brought her back in the 90s when he came back to the Batman books, but Jason was dead and you might get Nocturna and her step-brother replacing the black doctor in Knightsquest with Bruce trying to save her.
>Timm confused her with another Batman villainess from the 30s who was a vampire
Mad Monk was a vampire and he was a dude also 30's Batman was in one year in the 30's...
I think they mean https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Dala_Vadim_(New_Earth)
Dala was so hot in her story in the early 80s, I wish they would bring her back and make her a femme fatale for Dick, especially considering Bludhaven now has pirates. Might as well do vampires too
>especially considering Bludhaven now has pirates.
Like ye olde Black Beard esque pirates or what?
>Cumming is consent, Kate
Her argument is basically "my mind control doesn't make you do anything you wouldn't normally do"
What's that? horny lesbian Kate would objectively find Nocturna physically attractive? Well then I guess it wasn't rape lads!
I guess the argument was that Kate is a bawd, not raped?
This is after ole Nocturna had gotten her claws into Batwoman.
"I bet you wish that were true. No, Kate, that was all you. I'm not rapist. You wanted me so I fugred, "I haven't done this since college, so why not?"
As I said, Kate probably finds her physically attractive, and she is. But Nocturna first starts sleeping with Kate after sneaking into her home and biting her.
But isn't that what the author is implying in
?
I personally just saw it as bordering rapey but just dubious consent out the wazooo.
>But Nocturna first starts sleeping with Kate after sneaking into her home and biting her.
That's just a typical lesbian mating ritual.
why is this so horny
also why is everyone so pale, is she a vampire?
>MFW I realize Kate is more pale than the vampire girl
Basically Kate's first appearance had her stylized as white as a sheet, and they've run with it since.
hot
Well I can say that I have a huge dick, but you don't believe me, do you?
I believe you anon
Do you believe that I'm also a woman?
No.__________
See what I mean?
you will never be a man
sex
>Artemis
>Nocturna
Jason needs to be groomed by one more bisexual woman to make a trifecta.
Rose Wilson
Rose is even younger than Tim Drake.
Isn't she the same age or one year older? She was 14 in 1992, Tim was either 13 or 14 at that point.
I assumed Rose was about the same age as Jason now, if she isn't, then she's younger.
Talia
Wait, THAT Talia?
When Talia revived Jason, he came back as a teenager and later fricked her. She definitely groomed him to get to the fricking part
>I'm cold
Bitch, do you not see how he's dressed over there? He's probably freezing!
I can fix her bros
If no Crisis what was the plan for Nocturna?
>If no Crisis what was the plan for Nocturna?
seconding this question
>Gets killed or written off and Batman and Robin continue their never ending adventures for over 50 years and Jason just Robin forever.
>Was Nocturna grooming Jason Todd?
I really wish normies never found out about that word. It's become meaningless.
In this instance there's solid grounds to use it.
>could've had Nocturna show up in BTAS
>the episode proposal got vetoed by the studio censors because it involved Batman turning into a vampire
They also were thinking of adding her to Beware the Batman before that show died.
You think Timm would finally get to do that story in Caped Crusader?
One of the episodes is called Nocturne, so it's likely. Kinda charming that Timm has been wanting to do this for so long.
I was mainly referring to the meeting Steph part, but DC editorial is so vague it just might be the same. But also yeah, could just be two different people since it's not exactly out of the ordinary for villains.
No, the lesbian rapist was the New 52 Nocturna. She showed up in 2012. I don't think there's been anything about the original Nocturna except maybe a reference in that Flashpoint series where at the end there are a bunch of writers or something talking about what to do next, and one of them mentions having her and Bruce get married again.
Reading this thread, it's not even subtle. Any more obvious and she'd be sucking off Jason.
Absolutely. I can tell you that just by looking at the image. And she'll succeed.
Weird, I had the urge to ask a drawgay for an illo as if this was a Batgirls thread.
If my plate wasn't full I'd draw something,always thought Nocturna was cool.
Just left it hanging and maybe someone'll pick it it, like: "If only someone drew Jason and Nocturna kissing passionately while taking each other's clothes off". As an example, of course.
Man, the oedipal overtones are so sever I'd almost swear Chris Claremont wrote this.
Claremont's never really been oedipal, at least as far as I'm aware.
No wait, I just remembered the Doug Ramsey/Betsy Braddock romance teasing, which I suppose just about counts. Truly, Claremont is the man of a thousand fetishes.
She's prime /ss/ material and I'm not even into that.
She's even wearing the og Black Cat costume, that lady wanted to milk Jason more than anything.
Being reminded of this just makes me wonder where it, if allowed to continue, it would have gone. Status quo and all that makes me doubt any permanent meaningful change would have happened but, it was going to have to go somewhere.
I see there being two options. One is she ends up being killed, adding to Bruce's tragedy and probably even more so also being used to inform the direction of Jason's character. The other is she sticks around as the third main love interest to Bruce - becoming something akin Bruce's Felicia Hardy.
Wasn't her last pre-crisis appearance one where she at least seemed to maybe die?
She was stabbed (I am pretty sure I remember her being put in a hot air balloon by Jason) with it being unclear/unresolved if she died. If it weren't for Crisis then presumably we would have got an answer however, if there was no Crisis then her story may have been written differently anyway: be that her potential death not happening or if she does indeed die then consequences going forward from it.
Nocturna continuing may be butterfly enough to prevent the creative decision of killing Jason and accordingly result in no Tim and Red Hood as we know them. If she is still around and Jason still dies as he does then that seems like it could be used to distance her and Bruce.
This reminds me, one of my concepts for adapting Jason and doing the death/resurrection outside of a Superboy punch or Lazarus pit is to adapt Nocturna more as a straight vampire(though vague if she's supernatural or just a meta with vampire like abilities)and her having bitten Jason in his Robin days give him latent healing abilities that kick in when he's killed by the Joker.
This is mainly because the "digging himself out of his own grave" sequence is too good and I hate how the Lazarus pit only explanation removes that.
>straight vampire
She can only be one of those things.
That sounds kinda flimsy to me.
I think it'd make more sense for it to be an unforeseen side effect of just about any supernatural event that could occur either in Gotham specifically, or in some sort of widespread thing. Those have happened before, right? And use it to bring back a few other dead characters who may or may not be killed off again, not just Jason.
So in other words, we need to find a timeline where Crisis on Infinite Earths didn't happen so we can find out how things would go.
For a bunch of story threads we will never get answers because of COIE and Flashpoint. For some of them you can do Elseworlds but, they will never provide the actual answer as they will be meta informed by what we did get. You do a Elseworld that continues the story with Nocturna without COIE and whatever way you go about the creative decisions are on some level going to be influenced by Jason's death and Red Hood.
I'm now envisioning a timeline where Nocturnal dies, Jason doesn't die, and years later there is an entire arc where Nocturna returns in what emotionally fricks over both Bruce and Jason.
>Nocturna returns
Speculating for a what if what if, I can see them just straight out making her a vampire in such a scenario.
>Bruce's Felicia Hardy
homie Catwoman already exist.
They mean how Peter has Gwen, MJ and Felicia. It is the Betty and Veronica choice with Cheryl also added in.
Third?
Catwoman and Talia are Batman's main two love interests. There are a bunch of other characters at different times and certain outings that have served the role (Wonder Woman, Vicki Vale, Silver St. Cloud, Kathy Kane and Barbara Gordon to name a few) however, none have the same prominence and staying power as love interests in the mythos compared to Catwoman or Talia. If Nocturna remained and the storyline developed she could have got cemented as being closer in relevance to Catwoman and Talia than to the other women.
Anon Selina and Talia are Bruce's first and second
Similar to Kory and Babs being first and second for Dick, with Helena being a distant third
Reminder that she dated Match (Superboy's Bizarro clone) in Suicide Squad.
I would write a sight gag into a story where Nocturna goes to a costume party with Penguin where they're Boris and Natasha from Bullwinkle Show!
Would they even get along?
No. They don't know why everyone thinks they're doing a couple costume, both of them arrived with their own date, and they're actually dressed as Morticia Addams and Hercule Poirot.
I'm not sure if it's funnier if it's in Jason's Robin era and she was trying to get him to be Gomez, or she tries to get him to come after he's RH only to realize he's a 6'1'' grown man and the joke won't work. Either way he doesn't end up coming.
Nocturna still treats Jason like he's 12 even when he's fully suited up and gunning people down as Red Hood. Especially when he's in costume.
I know some people insist Post-Crisis Jason is entirely different from Pre(which I think is kinda lame. Yeah some stories don't work, but let Jason at least have FTMWHE.), but that would be fun.
Everybody wants an albino goth mommy until she starts mothering you in front of the thematic goons.
Yeah mostly because Post crisis Jason was written to be an butthole compared to younger Jason who while more bland wasn’t an impulsive dick
There's two takes on Post-Crisis Jason in Detective he was fun up beat kid sidekick like Dick kinda but played way younger and less of a clone than pre-crisis but in Batman title he was an edgy teenager full of rage, he even drawn different in the two books.
I don't know what was going on in Jason's era. How long was he Robin, anyway?
>Post crisis Jason was written to be an butthole
DC office didn't create a new Robin to set him as a failure... He was written as a 80s street kid, rough edges but heart in the right place, to go with an edgier Batman/Gotham. He gradually becomes a jerk under Starlin who spent most of his run not writing him anyway. Ditf is Jason as his jerkiest under Starlin, but that's still nothing compared to how DC flanderized him after his death to absolve Batman of all blame. Especially when he'll take a new Robin in a few months later.
>Especially when he'll take a new Robin in a few months later.
Should’ve made Anarky the new Robin. Tim is too much of a Dick clone. That and his backstory is lame.
>Anarky Robin
Shit, I'd have been so down for that. He'd either have gotten tossed out eventually or the whole Batfamily thing would be very, very different, but I love that idea. Underrated fun character, he could have more of a unique dynamic with Bruce - more conflict, he's not a carbon-copy "just as good a detective" but a even stronger technical operator than Bruce. Which could've been interesting moving forward into the 2000's and the like. Plus, you know, chaos vs. order themes between Batman and his own adopted kid and partner.
Shit, I'd never thought of that but that would've been a neat fricking idea. Now I'm sad it didn't happen. Would've had a lot of ripple effects between adaptions and storylines Robin had. I hate to say it, but this might actually be worth a good fanfic.
Tim is not a character, he is a reaction from an editorial who can't admit to failure and go pikachu face wondering "what went wrong with Jason". Blaming the character in and out of universe and not learning anything valuable in the process. The concept behind Tim is ; be safe, be from the upper class, don't question the system, be a kid with no history, be a batman and robin fanboy, ask to be Robin, be the perfect anti-Jason.
>Anarky the new Robin.
That would require DC to have a spine when in reality they can't even handle an apolitical street orphan.
>. Tim is too much of a Dick clone
>Tim is not a character,
I know this has become a Jason thread and Cinemaphile Jason fans take on Tim is largely a meta thing where they react to the editorial stories behind his creation instead of his actual stories(because reading old comics is hard for people here), but come on.
Tim after 2004 is largely mediocre, but acting like he wasn't his own character separate from Dick and Jason is stupid.
>so you two are… what exactly?
I can make it even more awkward.
There was also another post Crisis Nocturna who was in an arc of a Tim Drake Robin comic, whose name was ALMOST the same as the New 52 Nocturna.
Why is DC so shit at collecting this era of Batman or at least the works by doug moench? He wrote a few omnibus worth of Batman comics yet they’re basically OOP with some of the early runs just barely being collected in order. The arts good and the stories are fun so why isn’t it easy to collect,
DC in general is just really shit at collecting their classic stuff. They've been picking up a little recently, with all the Compendiums of 90s books and a recent reveal of way more omnibuses for next year, but on the whole most of their best 70s and 80s comic runs are very poorly collected, if at all.
You know I’m sure someone could do an Elseworld/BlackLabel/fan fiction or whatever to just streamline Jason’s story to include more references to the OG nocturna arc. I mean dude got crow barred under Bruce and it be interesting to see her reaction to his death + resurrection and not just completely ignored
Sit with me in the rain on a roof where you can fricking fall.
Mother of the year no wonder Jason ended up getting crow barred. It’s even more ironic because his real mom was worse.
Batman female villains all suck.
Pre-Crisis Jason never died..I wonder how he ended up.
Isn’t pre crisis Jason technically post crisis Jason with his history altered by the crisis? Or did everyone pre crisis just die and get replaced by a post crisis reality?
Pre-crisis Jason at least a version of him still exist in the multiverse.
Maybe with mommy issues
The question is whether Nocturna ever stopped grooming Jason Todd.