Watching this for the second time, why does this seem like such a more well made film than The Dark Knight? It's not just the art design or sound, but every aspect of this film seems significantly better
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Yes. The atmosphere, the music, the grittyness. It's well suit batman's world. Nolan's batman doesn't fell like batman.
SOVL.
I don't agree. It is a good movie, but TDK is better. Wally Pfister is a really talented guy, and his movies with Nolan look great.
Also,
better Joker.
not a fan of wally pfister. not fair to call him a one-trick pony but it seems he had like a very limited palette.
You're throwing stones in a glass house talking about Burton and limited palette/one trick ponies.
Pfister has been jobless on feature films after Nolan dropped him.
Not due to lack of talent (as DOP). I read that he doesn't want to go back to just being a DOP after his directorial debut flopped, so now he just shoots commercials.
So he's no good at telling stories, now he refuses to help others tell their stories. No win situation, sitting around with all his knowledge going to waste.
Pretty sad yeah. His movies with Nolan look better than Nolan and Hoyte IMO. Not that his recent movies look bad but they lack a certain visual texture that Mr. Fister brought.
Ah yes, better to direct "Taco Bell: Web of Fries II - Franchise Wars" than be a DOP on some major motion picture.
Truly...
Seen all of them, and watching Returns right now. Current rankings are
>1. Batman (1989)
>2. Batman Returns
>3. Batman: The Dark Knight Returns
>4. The Dark Knight
>5. Mask of the Phantasm
>6. Batman Begins
>Shit - The rest
switch 3 and 5 and I agree.
Oh forgot about The Batman, i'd put it at 5th. The shitty pacing towards the end ruins it
I'm biased since I saw it as a kid, but I still love Batman Forever. The set design compared to the last two films was bound to be different with a new director, but it was similar enough that it gave this cool effect that Gotham was slowly modernizing.
The insides of office buildings are a little more hip and modern. nigma seems like an overworked lacky who'd fit in with the Office Space crew. even his evil outfit has a sleekness to it, very modern with the orange hair.
twoface ties it together though. he feels very old gotham. mafioso suit that feels like something from the 30s.
batman forever simultaneously feels 1950s, 1990s, near future, and something completely out of time entirely all at once.
I like heaths joker, but I'd take Jack Napier, his joker, but mostly his gotham over tdk
gotham lost a lot of its charm when it just became Chicago. there are no gargoyles, there is no gothic imagery, the city feels like its own thing.
even napier joker having a main henchman named Bob and shooting him is the funniest thing to me to this day. 'Im gonna need a moment alone boys'
Nolan could have used Burton as a producer or something. I wish we got more film collaborations since everyone knows how to put a movie together these days.
I don't think Burton was the main driving force to define the more-or-less faithful Batman vibe in his film, i think he just executed the ideas of other people (sam hamm, warren skarren, tom manciwicz an maybe some other names i forget, and even jon peters and/or peter guber) and put his own aesthetic on top. he would have been useless to Nolan.
Because Nolan sucks shit and hasn't made a good film since Insomnia, with Memento being a neat experiment.
Insomnia is massively overrated.
Maybe, but it's a movie that sets out to do something and does it with 100% success.
Unlike most other Nolan movies that vastly overreach and completely miss the mark.
And every other piece of trash by Nolan isn't?
That's because back then directors and studios were making movies and not "vibes".
>Burton isn't all about the "vibe"
wew lad
What world building? Narratively the movie is pretty small and contained, and visually it's all obviously shot on sets.
Just with limited number of sets you believe in the world of Gotham. They exist at night on the fringes, yet the batmobile ride, identity reveal, coming face to face with Joker etc are all so thrilling.
Better world-building. Nolan constantly refers to real world Chicago, yet it's not gritty realism.
I get annoyed by zoomers who say Ledger’s Joker was the most demented, this was more fricked up than anything he did
Ledger has the kind of absurd plot armor that comic book and animated Joker has. But Nicholson's Joker is probably the best actual character.
Ledger's Joker looks like someone you can just beat up.
Nicholson's Joker is someone I would not want to be in the same building as.
That flower acid thing and mutilating his side b***h is traumatizing.
It wasn't afraid to embrace comic bookiness, for lack of a better word. Burton and his crew did a great job genuinely making it all look and feel like a comic book come to life without it feeling fake or silly in a laugh at it kind of way.
>I'm glad you're dead!
Nolan is a lazy bastard hack that saved the movie in editing and thanks to having good actors to work with. Every aspect of 89’ is the result of better craftsmen and artists in every facet of filmmaking.
>why does this seem like such a more well made film than The Dark Knight?
For you
I've seen almost every Nolan film and they seemed really underwhelming. Even Memento which gets shilled to death as being profound and deep seemed pretty mediocre compared to Eyes Wide Shut for example which leaves you thinking about it's story for days if not weeks.
first time anyone ever compared insomnia and eyes wide shut.
Nolan is a genuinely terrible director, he's never made anything good
memento is great
Every movie of his besides Tenet is good to great though.
Nah, he peaked with Memento which is actually kino. Everything else sucks dick
He's good at making midwit cinema which is the very foundation of film and arguably its purest form.
The problem is that Nolan got addicted to the heist format.
All his movies post idk ... Batman Begins have been heist movies and it only really worked in Inception.
TDK got annoying with all the “what a twist!” moments.
The Dark Knight is a very well done film. Even without Ledger's death, it was going to do gangbusters. People say how unlike Batman it is, but at the same time, it was the first time a sincere and realistic attempt to imagine and depict comic book characters and situations in the real world that applied to the tastes of modern audiences by playing on contemporary fears like terrorism and mass murder. Its one of the few movies that shows Batman doing detective work, something he's good at, I hear.
Burton's Batman turns the comic book aspect up to a million. Everything and everybody is a character in this film, even Gotham itself with its art deco fused with German expressionism architecture and making it ambiguous what decade it was set in. Nicholson like Ledger steals the show, the insane maniac against the perfect straight man except lives are at stake. Joker's rampage is not a systemic dismantling of a fragile social system like it is in Dark Knight, its just him being a fricking lunatic after taking over his former mob boss's gang after banging his goomah and deciding to poison the city and get a mean crush on the hero's love interest. Everything about Burton's films ooze stylishness while Gotham in Nolan's movies is just Chicago in the daylight.
It's the car, too. Chicks love the car.
There was also a lot more pressure on the first movie to succeed, because Batman had come a long way from the campiness of the sixties and fighting aliens in the seventies before returning to his dark roots which was perfect for a late 80s, early 90s audience. When word got out Tim Burton got the directors role, he had literally done Pee Wee's Big Adventure and Beetlejuice and when Keaton got cast, people fricking lost it hard cause they thought it was going to be a retread of the television series. The backlash was insane.
>When they hung me in effigy, that was, for me, harsh.-Michael Keaton
It wasn't until Jack got casted and a few stills got to the movie magazines at the time did it quell those fears.
Anton Furst art and production design made the Burton movies. its Gotham is so lived in and stylized you will believe it came out of a comic book panel
batman 66 is unironically the best batman movie
Style over substance at best. It technically works but it's limiting on the concept.
this picture is going on my wall with the droogs from robocop
Keaton approached the role like an actor the same way that Conroy approached Batman like Hamlet. He's a lonely guy trapped within himself, lurking in the shadows and seeking to avenge the death of his father and mother by pursuing criminals who would otherwise do to others what happened to him.
And with the limitations of the costume at the time with one of the biggest noticeable flaw is the inability to turn his head, which incredibly took up until the Nolan films before being perfected in a way that suited that universe as opposed to accurately capturing what is depicted as Batman in the comics. And even then it wasn't perfect; Bale met Affleck once before he took on the role and only said "make sure you can piss in that suit."
As a result, most of the focus of the movie is brought back to Keaton's eyes, the most expressive part he can emote aside from a slightly lowered voice. Not the gravely growl Bale brings or the digitized voice Affleck did, but a subdued threatening tone. Even when threatening to kill Joker at the end, he merely whispers it to him, before menacingly approaching him telling him that he killed his parents and that he made him first. This reserved introverted performance by Keaton, brought upon the demands of the role and the limitations of the suit, is praiseworthy considering we all saw what kind of manic psychotic volcano is underneath the surface after having seen Beetlejuice.
I could yak about this movie for hours.
>"Gentlemen! Let's broaden our minds."
> ywn dread Carl Grisham's #1 guy taking over
> ywn hear he got thrown into a vat of toxic chemicals
> ywn see him come back as this ghoulish clown
> ywn hear that he shot Grisham
> ywn hear that he took over all organized crime in Gotham
> ywn be surprised when he wants to take the boys on a field trip to broaden your minds
> ywn debase priceless works of art while Lawrence ghetto blasts Prince
> ywn be so happy that Jack Napier took over
you really can't be this.
there's something about movies when they tie in with music and have a cool actor that I dont think we're going to see again.
this shot and this whole scene is just a cool fricking event.
batman movies were fricking cool, man. they had all the cool people doing all the cool things.
now, every big movie is 'can we get china to buy it' and 'can we superimpose the actors onto UE5 backgrounds?'
I miss when movies were multimedia. Movie, soundtrack, novelization, video game, toys, etc. Yeah it's a bit consumerist but at least I get to listen to original music, read a book (even if it's more than likely slop), or engage with a game, etc. This compared to a Funko Pop that sits on your shelf or just nothing at all and the movie fades into nothing.
The best ever was 2001: A Space Odyssey. Kubrick and Clarke conceived it as a movie and a novel at the same time. Neither is less valid than the other. If you watch the movie, read the book, then rewatch the movie you get a greater, more immersive experience that neither could offer on their own.
because you're high
Just finished Returns for the second time, updating by Batman rankings
>1. Batman Returns
>2. Batman (1989)
>3. Batman: Mask of the Phantasm
>4. Batman: The Dark Knight Returns
>5. The Dark Knight
>6. The Batman
>7. Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker
>8. Batman Begins
>Shit
>The Rest
In terms of style, yes, it's better than TDK. But overall, TDK still edges it out as a film.
Batman 1989 is a light-hearted thriller/film noir for kids with no ulterior pretentions.
TDK is an attempt to turn Batman lore into serious mythology for adults which starts strong but eventually collapses under its own weight.
Batman '89 has some humorous bits but it's a darker movie overall. Both are PG. The Nolan flicks were simply made with wider appeal in mind. A lot of PG movies are like this. LotR, James Bond, etc.
Batman 1989 is entertainment and nothing else. TDK is amongst other things an apology for state surveillance and how that's a good thing. In that sense, it's much darker than Batman 1989.
You can find subtext in Teletubbies if you look hard enough. At the end of the day, they're both more similar than not.
Nolan's universe is just more grounded and his Joker is closer to a terrorist than a mob dealer who fell in chemicals.
Burton's films are more fantastical and stylized.
Depends on what your preferences are. Even as a kid, I liked movies that didn't shy away from mature elements, and that includes some R-rated films too.
The most acclaimed comics usually have those elements too. Even something more lighthearted like Darwyn Cooke's works have a deeper layer than just Saturday morning affair.
THIS. I found the sexuality rather dangerous as a kid. Joker is a deformed man promising a good time or rape. Batman is a marriageable man so repressed like he has unmentionable problems.
Nolan's a hack. I'll never understand his following™.
Nolan is a wienersucking hack