Western comics would benefit from clearly defined demographics like what manga has.
Shonen - Manga aimed at preteen+ boys.
Shojo - Manga aimed at preteen+ girls.
Seinen - Manga aimed at adult men.
Josei - Manga aimed at adult women.
It feels like the West is afraid to make anything targeted towards a specific demographic anymore and instead aims for "mass appeal" (ad when you try to appeal to everybody, you end up appealing to nobody)
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First EvW post I agree with, comics do have this crisis of mass appeal vs not specific appeal. When they were doing good they had a clear kid vs adult split, mostly all male audience but sometimes comics just for girls.
But now you can read Sonic the Hedgehog and who is that for really? Is that really for kids or manchildren online?
Western animation doesn't even have this issue, especially now there's little to no overlap vs something meant for young kids and older audiences
Yeah it feels like the entire western comics industry is aimed at manchildren rather than real children. Actual 8 year old kids are not reading fricking Transformers comics, even though they should be the target audience.
>even though they should be the target audience
Lmao no 8 years give a frick about Transformers and trying to market to them won't change it.
Transformers is an 8 year old's wet dream. If kids today aren't interested in it, then the writers of Transformers must have shit the bed
t. moviebob
Or because Transformers just doesn't hit the same for kids now like it did back then.
Kids aren't the same as we where lot of adults don't realize this shit but lot of kids just have disinterest for things we think they would like because it just doesn't fit with their gen and trying to update it or write for them won't help. It's like when you're a little kid and you just don't like this new thing of an older thing because the vibe it gets off.
What the frick do kids even like these days?
Transformers feels like it should be one of those timeless things that transcend generations, like Pokemon
Here's the answer.
What non-brainwashed kid wants to waste time on alphabet trash like that? Just the association is embarrassing.
Are those supposed to be lesbian transformers?
They're not even humans. What a joke.
Transformers has more depth than pokemon which is peak toddlercore. it should be obvious once you watch 20 minutes of characters that can only say their names. then again toddlershit is always extremely popular.
What depth is that, Xirbot uses they/them pronouns but the evil cishet white male villain bigot called him a he instead?
segretation and prejudice based on class/lifestyle/ politics. it's a typical plot element of adult literature.
and it has more depth than pika pi pikachu
>class/lifestyle/politics
>Lug's a she now!
lmao
it's all bigotry.
the fact that you have to compartmentalize it is proof of your terminal autism
YWNBAW
IAYC
dilate troony
Literal toddler shows have unironically more depth than muh pronouns.
Frick your shit idea of "bigotry", I want to read about real problems not your petty mental illness.
>this deep in meltdown because someone told him no
Woke shit is not adult literature. Don't pretend otherwise.
AW SHIT IT'S REAL
WHY WON'T KIDS READ ABOUT ROBOTS ACTING SANCTIMONIOUS ABOUT PRONOUNS?????
toddlers don't read
Trans Transformer.
Now that's what I call TRANSformers.
>shove disgusting twitter troony propaganda into comics
>why do people prefer pika pika pikachu to our woke messaging about pronouns?!!?
Do these mentally ill trannies ever think people don't want to read about pronoun b***hing in their comics?
...They're robots..they don't have genders..
Yes, but the idea is that they didn't have a concept of gender at all until they left Cybertron and met other species, and if they can identify as male, they can identify as female too.
And you people wonder why actual, normal 8 year olds aren't interested in reading this repulsive troony propaganda.
8 year olds watch cocomelon. transformers is for adults.
Wow, that's moronic.
Yeah that's why comics taking place on Cybertron all use he/him pronouns without problem.
This is why I hate american comics, it's all fanfiction shit everything is always changed at the whim of whatever shit writer of the week. At least manga provide consistency, one artist-author, one vision.
>they're robots
they're aliens.
Robot aliens.
>American politics are so invasive it infects cultures from other planets, not just other countries
Lads, end it now.
There’s a shit ton of young zoomer/ early gen alpha tf kids on twitter and online spaces. The thing is the franchise attracts neuro atypical and literal trans people these days
Those kids a niche bunch still, I doubt little Johnny who just play PS5 and watches Youtube cares.
zoomers were a mistake
Kids now are disinterested in anything that isn't the flavor of the month. If they're a teenager you might as well not even bother. All teens want is
>newest gaem
>newest eceleb stuff
>newest trend that makes them feel special
And that pretty much covers all of it. But as for kids below the age of like, 6, they're still all about tf and tmnt and gacha toys. Once they're old enough to have a phone tho their brains are kaput. Then they're just screenmonkeys that push a button over and over for dopamine hits. There's no use pandering to anyone older than 6-7 or younger than 25. Soon to be "younger than 30"
This. Cars were a huge draw from at least the 60s through the 80s, now they aren't recognized as being as cool as they used to be so no one gives a shit about Night Rider or Transformers anymore.
Cool guess we should just let this medium that was always fundamentally designed for children just be made for autistic manchild collectors and actively oppose any attempts at getting its original point for existing back.
No wonder Alan Moore fricked off out of comics.
>this shit is aimed at manchildren
Stop misgendering DC and Marvel's imaginary queer audiences, bigot.
Comics already have a ratings system, dumbass. Most hero books are T for Teens. Others are Mature Readers only.
Anon, don't be stupid, those don't describe the demographics.
There's a big difference between something that's rated mature because it's a romance comic with graphic sex scenes and something that's rated mature because it's a gorefest comic with graphic violence.
Nobody fricking reads comics so there’s no point. Give it up.
True
>Western comics would benefit from clearly defined demographics like what manga has.
>Shonen - Manga aimed at preteen+ boys.
>Shojo - Manga aimed at preteen+ girls.
>Seinen - Manga aimed at adult men.
>Josei - Manga aimed at adult women.
Most beyblade, jjk and chainsawman readers are females so that defined demographics are redundant
Being aimed at a specific demographic doesn't stop other demographics from enjoying something.
Yes, but it means you actually have something that people will enjoy. Western comics only ever pander ot the lowest common denominator, and when they don't it's because they're pandering to twitter instead.
Can't get any lowest than twitter trash.
Yes, but they're not *common*. Of course, comics nowadays pander to twitteroids becuase they only exist to jack off the egoes of the californian writers and serve as a script for a movie in the future.
Ultimately, the truth is that DC and Marvel need to fricking die if comics are to ever be anything other than fricking capeshit, because outside of a few exceptions and indies, that's all they've been for the past century.
Western women are sad evil b***hes who hate seeing people like what they don't like. It's not that they can't enjoy comics too, it's that they don't want comics to have anything YOU enjoy.
Western comics need to implode and restart from scratch
If that's true then why do adults love shonenshit, especially Americ**ts?
Because they grew up watching Dragon Ball Z
the only manga that has any mainstream appeal are shounen and anything that replicates it
this whole manga has a bazillion genres that's why it does better isn't really the answer
the wests problem is capeshit dominating everything
and no popular mainstream place to host comics that aren't capeshit
seriously, where do you even go to legally read comics online?
or even see any new non capeshit be published?
That's basically the point I'm making, manga has something for everyone.
You've got
>Kodomo for young children
>Shonen for boys
>Shojo for girls
>Seinen for adult men
>Josei for adult women
And each of those demographics has lots of different genres within them. Whereas with western comics, it's basically superhero comics and that's it
The point is that Manga has a far better Middle Class where diversity exists compared to Comics
not really when the only one that gets any real mainstream focus is shounen shit or anything that mimics it
You forgot the kodomo demographic.
Comics don't necessarily need labels. They need editors and imprints with individual, specific, consistent vision. They need identity in the actual sense of the word.
As they are now, Marvel and DC are patronizing chameleons at best, and narrow-minded, goal-oriented activists at worst. That doesn't mean those people don't belong in comics. They just need their own space to do their own little thing, with a budget commensurate to readers they actually they pull in.
>clearly defined demographics
Berserk and Witch Hat Atelier are in the same category.
what comics need is some way to tell stories without having to include Batman in them somehow
Counterpoint: put Batman in Witch Hat Atelier.
>Berserk and Witch Hat Atelier are in the same category.
What's strange about that? Grown men with soul-crushing jobs need cute girls doing cute things to give sense to their corporate drone lives. That's why cute girls doing cute things, or iyashikei, is a subgenre of adult men manga. If anything your comment just proves americans are dumb and ignorant of what appeals to adult men.
>Berserk and Witch Hat Atelier are in the same category.
Yeah, because they're demographics, not genres. Both are aimed at adult men, so they're both seinen.
To the dumb western woman mind, the idea of an adult man enjoying a cute calm story about cute emotional characters just doesn't register. Western women are sexist pieces of shit who think men only like what THEY expect men to like, any man who falls out of their preconceived idiocy is either a loser or a homosexual in denial. Then they go on twitter and cry about muh sexism.
>actually spewing such mongolian take that shonen is a demographic
they're made up categories by autistic morons obsessed with reducing everything into little groups and parroted by even bigger morons who think comics books are just Marvel and DC.
>actually spewing such mongolian take that shonen is a demographic
But it is. The word shonen literally means "boy"
even though the majority of shonen and superhero comics readership is made up of adults. age ratings and these so called "manga demographics" like shonen and seinen are just made up categories that don't reflect their intended audience. I know because I was watching adult comedies as a 7 year old.
Older people watching/reading them doesn't change who the intended audience is
real comics for real children exist, they're nonexistant to the duplicitous homosexuals making those sale lists and the people posting them in forums.
this segmentation doesn't matter to the people invested in the product, it only matters to the hyper autistic fanboys.
You being neglected as a child doesn't mean comics don't have actual target demographics, which can well exclude people like you.
Manga demographics mainly come from the magazines
Western comics and graphic novels are published individually so each has its own target demographic, it's just a less explicit system as opposed to the one of manga magazines
Manga web publications have looser target demographics too
I think what western comics need is protection of the artists artistic freedom, in Japan you can publish almost any type of content if you find the right publisher but in the west you have to worry about getting cancelled, anti-porn politicians and all sort of other stuff
Because it's an industry made up entirely of emotionally stunted trannies.
its literally too late for comics to fix their shit
technology has changed, American culture isn't accustomed to buying comics regularly, and the industry for the last 30 years has been made to market towards obsessive fanboys with a few outlier times when they tried appealing to the woke crowd in desperate attempts that not even they liked.
comics fricked themselves and the industry deserves to burn down, only then something better can come
Remember when DC kids and Marvel Adventures/Ages was a thing?
Bring back Johnny DC.
2000's was last time they made books and try to market to kids with comics, it partly worked but not well enough, it most likely would've if they just sold them in other shops more.
Kids don’t want ultra sanitized shit.
Those books where usually better drawn and written than lot of mainstream titles also they weren't that sanitized, it's not like kid gonna notice.
They will when manga they read has boobs and hard bloody violence.
if they're even reading at all with all video services and games why would a kid read anything? Most people who buy manga are young adults.
Guess what those games and videos also are?
Unsanitized compared to DC and Marvel’s kiddie offerings. Stop the cope.
The media we watched as kids was sanitized as frick, bu we didn't care. Kids don't care.
Kids now watch sanitized as fricked Youtube videos since Youtube spreg out on the kids app (for the best) and cartoons also games too just look how much more violent an E game was 20 years ago vs now, hell our Y7 cartoons in reruns are PG now.
>Kids play violent video games/or watch violent movies too
Yeah we know but still most kids are still going for the kid stuff at the end of the day.
You didn’t care because you didn’t know better. Kids today have more media exposure and grow up faster.
>Grow faster
lmfao...
no boomers who had to work when they where still in elementary school grow up faster.
>grow up faster
lmao
Delayed speech has been on the rise for years now
I don't care how many people read comics, I like them being niche.
You just know that if manga/anime were a western medium, they'd put tons of "girlboss" female characters in shonen and seinen manga/anime... they keep doing it. Star Wars, Marvel, whatever other male-dominated IPs you can think of, feminists have to push their bullshit on everyone, and that's why western shit sucks now.
give it up. the american industry cant even define those genres because of gender politics and trannies. it always must be for everyone and will. you opened the pandoras box and you can never redo it.
idk much about the french industry, i also heard theyve censored hentai now so it doesnt seem to be good either, but maybe they could slowly normalise those genres.
>Seinen - Manga aimed at adult men.
>Josei - Manga aimed at adult women.
Those are more like the American "Young Adult" gategory which is like 15+. I'm sure older readers read them too but that's not the main demographic. When you look for manga that's specifically aimed at adults you get stuff like Gekiga (劇画) e.g. Golgo 13 or Lone Wold and Cub.
Seinen manga(青年漫画)is an editorial category of Japanese comics marketed toward young adult men. In Japanese, the word seinen literally means "youth", but the term "seinen manga" is also used to describe the target audience of magazines like Weekly Manga Times and Weekly Manga Goraku which cater specifically to men's interests, and are marketed towards a demographic of young adult men between the ages of 18 and 40. Seinen manga are distinguished from shōnen manga which are for young teen boys, although some seinen manga like xxxHolic share similarities with shōnen manga. Seinen manga can focus on action, politics, science fiction, fantasy, relationships, sports, or comedy. The female equivalent to seinen manga is josei manga.
Gekiga was the predominant style of adult comics in Japan in the 1960s and 1970s. It has since been incorporated in the Seinen demographic.
Please educate yourself.
the meaning of the word seinen is like that but the targe audience of seien is basically all adults from all gens. big comic is a popular seinen magazine but the core readership is middle aged ojisans from 30yo to 60yo.
30yo men are seinen demographic.
You know, books do this. You have YA novels and kids novels and novels for adults. An anon mentioned comics do self publishing and manga usually go through magazines first then in volumes, but it is interesting that comics dont have a book-like format.
Western comics just need two categories
For Trannies
For Humans
Spoken like someone whose knowledge of manga readership demographics is entirely confined to marketing terms. In Japan itself, it's extremely common for people to read outside their target demographic, to the point that publishers will poke fun at their own official marketing policies.
>In Japan itself, it's extremely common for people to read outside their target demographic
That doesn't change who the target demographic is
It literally doesn't matter who the publisher is targeting if the target audience freely moves between lines that only exist in the publisher's head.
It does because it means the product doesn't change based on who it's attracting, it exists how it does to attract a certain audience, if another audience also happens to like that it's irrelevant because they're not the target audience.
It's why you don't see any shonen manga turn into gay wank sessions just because fujos like them and fujos like gay sex.
>"the product"
>"the publisher"
>"the industry"
no actual titles or names. spoken like a tard who only parrots youtube grifters
>Speaking in general terms about the industry doesn't involve specific manga
Yea, no shit, are you moronic?
>It does because it means the product doesn't change based on who it's attracting
It doesn't because it attracts large numbers of people who aren't the target audience despite the product not being marketed at them.
And those people are irrelevant, the only audience that matters is the target audience.
>And those people are irrelevant
They're relevant to the thesis of this thread because the thesis doesn't correspond to reality, but rather to what OP thinks reality is based purely on the existence of marketing terms and not, say, how people in Japan actually read.
>the thesis doesn't correspond to reality
Are you moronic? We have been telling you over and over that it does correspond to reality because yes, target demographics exist in Japan, and accessory demographics aren't as important. That's why Naruto doesn't wave a Pride flag unlike Jon Kent, and that's why manga is better than your shit propaganda.
>target demographics exist in Japan
Yes, and they don't matter.
Accessory demographics don't matter, yeah. No matter how much a fat white woman screams about the male gaze and muhsoggyknees, Hinata is still a shy, demure, loyal heterosexual wife to Naruto.
The target demographic affects the content and tone of the work
The content and tone of the work is also porous between target demographics.
Nobody wants to read neither troony nor queer shit and the sales numbers prove it.
Who is this person you made up in your head and why are you arguing with them?
Anon, we're not talking about America. Yamada draws for men, he doesn't give a shit if some ugly woman finds big breasts offensive.
>Anon, we're not talking about America.
Correct. Read more manga.
Manga respects demographics. The ugly woman who hates big breasts shouldn't read manga made for men who love big breasts.
>Manga respects demographics.
Read more manga.
You read more manga magazines, troony.
Cool story. Read more manga.
Ugly women in Japan create decent waifus tho
Look at Demon Slayer and JJK for recent examples
JJK's author is a man, anon.
Yeah, the problem is fat ugly women in the west, especially the USA.
Americans in general take pride in being fat and ugly tho
>posts abandoned series
btw boobage stops being the main focus of that shit as the story progresses and switches to actual class politics of their made up world.
I see boobage from start to end, and that's good enough for me. I'm not opposed to class politics, so long as boobage is kept nice and big and on full display along with class politics.
Isn't Naruto the guy who transforms into a woman just to seduce other men?
Using a technique he calls the "Sexy Jutsu"?
Of course, he doesn't need to fly a Pride Flag. It would be redundant.
Anon, Naruto has a wife and two kids.
Trannies showing their mental illness once again, exhibit A: seeing a comedic moment played for laughs and thinking it's about their mental illness once again.
>nooo. my hero totally isn't a troony groomer and there is no homosexualry in his show
Take your meds.
Why can't we have this in american comics?
A cishet male protagonist who is truly and sincerely loved by a beautiful cishet woman, who is courageous enough to protect him in battle and is also gentle enough to provide him comfort whenever he needs it?
Without any sanctimonious correcting of wrongthink, just wholeheartedly accepting the cishet man as he is.
In the actual manga, it's total shit
Naruto barely spends time with his family or even goes home much because he's in his office doing paperwork all day.
At least he has a same-race wife and even kids. That already makes him basically a conservative for american comics.
>marrying a different clan in the ninja world
Naruto might as well be racemixing.
Nah, Hinata is too actually human for that.
What a dishonest comment, Hinata and Naruto are the same race and it shows in how loving, harmonious and beautiful their family is.
Naruto spends the entire series romantically attracted to a girl, and marries and has two kids with another one
the same Naruto that rejected the ninja-as-a-tool-of-state mentality.
What does that have to do with Naruto being a cisgender heterosexual man in a loving monogamous marriage with a cisgender heterosexual woman?
Naruto is woke
>They're relevant to the thesis of this thread
Not really, the point is that in Japan they don't care if their story attracts an audience outside of the target audience, they don't change the story to suit this new audience because clearly they already like the property as it is targeting its original audience.
OP's point is that western comic publishers don't understand this, if they saw a bunch of fujos latching on to a story about a bunch of hot buff dudes beating the shit out of each other they would try to add a bunch of gay romance to the story in order to get more fujo bucks.
And would alienate and lose both audiences in the process. See: the failure that is DC turning random characters gay or trans for woke points.
Except that Shounen Authors did start pandering to women in the 80s
They just pandered to what factually made women wet, instead of what women claimed to enjoy
>Except that Shounen Authors did start pandering to women in the 80s
By pandering to what boys like.
It turns out that men and women like a lot of the same things despite how much white women pretend otherwise.
It's like how a film like Road House appeals to both men and women because they both like watching Patrick Swayze beat the shit out of dudes, even if it's for entirely different reasons.
Boys in Japan don't prefer the Faux Bishounen look that characters like Baki have, authors just use it because Saint Seiya proved that you can appeal to both genders with hot blooded guys who have a pretty face
Anon, have you actually read Baki?
Most of the characters in Baki are ugly as frick and far from "faux bishounen," the only character who even comes close to that is Baki, and that's because he's a teenager, and is still like twice the size of normal men in Baki.
I was talking about Baki the character, not the manga
I used him as an example of how 80s onwards Shounen MC don't look rugged unlike 70s shounen MC*
That's because shounen protags started being teenagers to more efficiently appeal to their primary demographic of teenaged boys, largely because Dragon Ball was immediately and immensely popular among said demographic in the early-mid 80s.
>how much white women pretend otherwise
That is literally the central argument of feminism for the past 50+ years you dumbass.
And still the product doesn't change. Unlike western comics which have changed for the worse over the years and are completely dwarfed by manga now because who wants to read troony robots and queer shit.
Yes it does. When one dempgraphic starts b***hing too much, the publisher can tell that demographic to frick off. That's what western comics should have done when women and trannies started demanding comics stop pandering to cis white men and start pandering to mentally ill trannies instead, and look where that got the industry.
Americans (and other Westerners by association) see any and all drawn media as made inherently for children, and can only excuse consuming it if it's absolutely drowned in irony and cynicism. You can separate your comics however you want, that part won't change.
to an imbecile like op spider-man and watchmen are both superhero comics.
I guess dragon ball and death note are the same damn thing, they were both published in shonen jump after all you fricking moron
Well Death Note is peak teenager shit.
Yes, Dragon Ball and Death Note are both shonen manga.
Jujutsu Maiden is also still a shonen manga despite attracting tons of autistic adult women.
who's your favorite superhero? mine is mouse Art Spiegelman, he can totally beat Goku in Death Battle.
>genre but Japan
Shonen/seinen etc. are't genres
casuals, no wonder Cinemaphile doesn't want you
What are some other good seinen superhero comics besides pic related?
god it sounds so stupid, no wonder it came from a weeb.
What sounds stupid?
West is stuck in an eternal PG/PG-13 mindset where everything has to appeal to as many demos as possible without going too far in any direction. It's never about making something good that might only appeal to fans of something specific, just about making something good enough that everyone will potentially want to see it at least once.
Why do morons assume that western comic don't have different demographics or genres?
Do they really think that having capeshit, but for girls is gonna solve anything?
I fricking hate this dipshit fricking forced rivalry between the two but one thing I will say is that Western comics should have more diversity of genres and more prominent publishers than just Marvel and DC. And that's coming from someone who fricking loves superhero comics.
You are an autist who demands his media be in neat little boxes.
have a nice day.